Hi, and welcome to the Affiliate Insider Podcast with me, Leanne Johnston. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers. Listen up as I explore the latest digital and affiliate marketing trends and give you the insider scoop on what's occurring in affiliate marketing. Join us as we explore affiliate strategies, host expert interviews with leading affiliates and tech entrepreneurs, and discuss the latest affiliates and digital marketing trends. If you want to stay at the cutting edge of affiliate marketing, you're in the right place. Join me for this week's episode and let's get started.
SPEAKER_00If you're looking to launch an affiliate program but aren't 100% sure where or how to start, put your best foot forward and book a free agency call with us today. Affiliate Insider offers a range of agency services from strategy and consulting to technical integration, affiliate recruitment, and in-depth program audits. Our team will help you plot the right course, save you time to launch and scale a successful affiliate program and strategy. As one of the UK's top 50 rated agencies as ranked by the Drum's Digital Agency Centre, we've helped hundreds of brands launch and grow multi-million dollar programs across a range of industries. Why not book a free scoping call and let us help you expand your reach with successful affiliate marketing? Visit affiliateinsider.com and click on agency to find out more.
SPEAKER_04Welcome to Affiniate Insiders Affiliate Marketing Podcast with me, Leanne Johnston, founder of Affiliate Insider. And today we've got a Whatgor of a treat for you guys because I've invited somebody very special to join the podcast to talk about a subject that we've all been talking about in Afinite Marketing for absolute eons. And today with me is one of the founders and co-president of Link Connector, Cheats Humphreys, who has a wealth of experience in all areas of leadership, entrepreneurship, and also in affinite marketing technology. Sheets was recently up on the stage at Affinite Summit Rest over in the States just a few weeks ago, talking about attribution to advance your program growth goals. And I just have to get him on the podcast today to continue this conversation, which is still something we'll be talking about for, as I said before, eons in the marketing industry. But before we get into the nuts and bolts of attribution modeling, and as we're exploring affiliate marketing around the globe in this season, I wanted to ask Chits to quickly say hello and welcome him onto the podcast and talk a little bit about his story and how he arrived in affiliate marketing today. So hey Cheats, thanks so much for being here.
SPEAKER_01Hey, Leanne, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_04It's absolutely awesome to have you on the podcast. So let's pick off this very important conversation about attribution modeling by starting with a little bit of storytelling and telling us a little bit about how you landed up in the affiliate marketing industry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I started I had a previous online business and started learning about affiliate marketing as one of the channels to expand our growth opportunities. We were acting more as an affiliate back then. We had some negotiated partnerships with some US tax websites. And we wanted to explore affiliate marketing as a way to grow our business, like most people do. And I explored with various networks in the US a relationship. I ended up signing with one of the larger ones and really kind of felt like there was a lot of limitations to the way that tracking was occurring back then. And attribution was one of those limitations that we felt constrained by. We left our program after the first year. It wasn't very successful, but felt like affiliate marketing had a lot of potential. An old industry friend of mine, Brian Littleton, I talked to him about maybe building something custom for us. He'd liked the ideas that we talked about. He just felt like he was too small at the time to handle what we wanted. So Ernie and I, Ernie Saint-Gelais, the other founder of Lake Connector, we decided to build our own in-house tracking solution. So it wasn't meant to be an affiliate network. It was meant to be a tracking solution for our current business to try to gain a better understanding of the traffic that was coming in and where it was going and how it was affecting our ROI and our goals and stuff like that. And as we were able to successfully accomplish that, we decided and started talking to other potential industry partners about it and about what we had created. We decided to sell our previous online business and spin this off as its own network solution.
SPEAKER_04And how long ago was that? That was like kind of in the beginning of the dawn of time of affiliate marketing.
SPEAKER_01It was back when I had hairly in it. So that was a long time ago.
SPEAKER_04But it's an interesting story because the history of affiliate marketing has somewhat been lost with people like you and I who've been in the industry for decades. And if we think now about what we're dealing with today in terms of the complexities of how programs are run and what the strategy is that sits behind them versus what we had back then. And already back then you were looking at where is this traffic coming from and how can we improve the ROI in it. Already then you were thinking about the technology that sits behind affiliate marketing. So it's an incredibly big honor to have you on the podcast because you've got this breadth and depth of experience that needs to be shared with some of the new people that are coming into our industry. So I'm gonna kind of like delve deep behind the brain that sits behind Bing Connect and the story of how that started, but also talk about some of the key topics that you and I experienced as we met as Booth Buddies at PI Live almost a month ago now in London.
SPEAKER_01Almost a month.
SPEAKER_04And really just continue that conversation because I think it's such an important topic. So let's get into it. I want to get you to explain attribution modeling in your own words and what it means for you and your clients and why it's such an important subject. So anybody listening to this can just start at the very beginning of this conversation and understand the topic that we're going to be talking about today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so to answer your question from earlier, we started building our network in 2003, but we ended up launching in 2004. So we had Netscape back then, for goodness sake. So we had browsers that some of your audience have never heard of that had pretty significant limitations, but they were evolving quickly. And what we felt like is the networks weren't evolving with the browser. So a lot of the browsers which were competing head-to-head and really adding a lot of different data points that you could gather, we were not adjusting to those things. So we were not changing our tracking solutions to accommodate those. So when we built the network, and I promise this is key to answering your question, we built it as a way to rapidly adapt to the technological capabilities of the world as it changed. Um so that was important to us. So from the beginning, we offered two things. And one of those was the ability to do either first click or last click from day one. So day one, our network launched. Now I know that's overly simplistic, and we're going to get into the complexities of attribution, but we wanted to allow our merchant partners to attribute credit depending on which part of the marketing channel they value the most. At the time, there were a lot of coupon sites that were really gaining a lot of traction. And not everybody wanted to reward the coupon sites. And so that's what we offered. It was very controversial at the time. There were a lot of people that had a lot vested in affiliate marketing, both as search affiliates or the coupons that were investing a tremendous amount of money, time, and effort into building their basically their solutions that would support the last click model. And so a lot of folks were trying to hold on to that. We didn't object to that one IOTA. What we said is we want to support as a technological solution whatever the goals of an individual merchant were. And so to fast forward now to your question, attribution modeling and link connector, or for us over the years, has always started with a conversation with the merchant partner or the advertiser. What are you trying to achieve? So, what is it you value? Where is your program now? Where would you like to take it? And then we talk to them about technological solutions, customization of beyond obviously the simplistic last click or first click. We talk to them about different ways they can accomplish that. Different examples might include either splitting commission or really favoring the beginning of the channel versus the end, or maybe, as we hear a lot today, completely or 100% devaluing the closure out of the equation. So coupon and loyalty sites are facing that right now. And a lot of folks feel like their programs are nothing but coupon and loyalty and really want to expand into the content, into the loyalty and those kinds of arenas.
SPEAKER_04And we're seeing that a lot as well because a lot of big brands, I mean, I read in the drum today actually about misguided and you know the fantastic influencer community that they've built around their Avenia program to actually push product. And I think that's what's making it a little bit confusing now for digital marketers to understand what is this attribution model that I should be having, you know, what's best for me, what's best for my business, what is the right route? Because there are so many different ways in the customer journey that attribution can be implemented. So, what are the some of the common things that you've experienced with some of the clients that you're working with on Link Connect or what are some of the key things that you need to ask yourself before you go down the route of implementing an attribution model for your program?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think the key starting point for any conversation is understanding what the goals are as it relates to the diversity of the affiliate program. So is a brand trying to eliminate all coupon and loyalty, or are they trying to simply swing that pendulum back towards supporting the ability for some of the introducers into the equation, whether it's social influencers today or blog sites? Are they trying to get them more involved? And one of the other things we always talk to our merchant partners about is the number of times that multiple affiliates are involved in a click, and obviously it depends, I can vary greatly, but on average, you're only talking about 15 to 18% overlap there. And so that's important to understand from the standpoint of to swing that pendulum back, you don't need to eliminate everything that you've built today. It can really be about shaping your program in such a way to expand and diversify and make it a much stronger foundation on which to build, not being over-reliant on either a couple of affiliate partners or affiliate partner types.
SPEAKER_04And I think that's super important because that was one of the things that came up on the panel that I was at at PI Live was should I be working with e-commerce and batch-code or loyalty sites? And my answer to that is categorically yes, because you want to get grand reach. You know, we all look at the performance industry or the performance marketing channel as last click and driving sales, but actually affiliates are now becoming huge media conglomerates. And we really need to be looking at that customer awareness journey to pinpoint and plot which partners we want to work with. And that kind of also brings in the attribution modeling mix, which is what you said, is what are you trying to do with your program, depending on what that is, that then feeds back into what you do in the attribution mix.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04How do you guys handle the attribution modeling with client programs when you have those conversations? What are the typical questions that you ask them to think about so that they can start to think about how attribution should be working in their business? Just for brands that might be listening to this podcast, what are some of the key things that they need to checkpoint before they want to implement an attribution model in their performance marketing program?
SPEAKER_01Well, this sounds very cliche-ish, but one of our favorite questions to ask, especially a brand that we're not working with right now, but also brands that come to us and say, how do we design a program using attribution to support our program goals? So the biggest thing we like to ask is what do you think isn't possible? What have you been told that's not possible? And that's a good starting point because usually it is possible. It's just too hard to do. And so that usually that question right there, that one question, if somebody starts talking about the things they want to do, but have been told they can't for technological reasons or because it's just going against the grain too much, there's not enough reach out there. Usually that question leads to a bunch of other questions, like, well, I'd really, really like to get more influencers, but influencers only want a straight payout. They don't want to work on a performance basis. That leads us down a path of, okay, so why do we think influencers have such a hard time with affiliate marketing? Well, affiliate marketing, as we all, I hope, especially those listening to your podcast, it's a very obscure concept that most of the world doesn't know about, but most of the world does interact with. And so talking about the fact that influencers are really their skill set is not promoting your product. Their skill set is connecting with and communicating with their audience who has identified with that influencer. And so, how do we empower them to do that? So we have a couple of technologies that we use to help our brands connect with those influencers in ways that they're comfortable with. You don't have to learn affiliate marketing to actually try this on a performance basis. So one of those might be, and you and I talked about this about a month ago, but you know, the cookie list coupon code, right? So a private code that belongs to that influencer, whether it's created for that influencer specifically or assigned to that influencer, that the influencer can know that they don't have to drive somebody to the link below to start the credit process. They don't have to change how they're doing things. They need to just talk to their audience in ways they're comfortable with and present those kinds of things that are a natural part of how they talk about things with their audience. And so now but we'll get credit. And sometimes the conversation leads to, well, I still can't get influencers to do that. Well, let's get them to use it. You don't have to pay them based on this, but we can track those sales and show them the earning potential that exists with this kind of technology. And then you can slowly start moving them towards, hey, you would be making more money if you did this on a performance basis. Let's not worry about audience size, let's not worry about reach. Let's not worry about how many times you're going to mention. Let's worry about how do we get you the tools you need to work this into your environment in a way that makes sense for you.
SPEAKER_04So I just want to kind of highlight this because this is like affiliate marketing gold right here. Okay. For anybody that's new coming into the industry, I want you to just press pause. I want you to rewind and I want you to listen to the last question that she's just answered. Because a lot of people think that affiliate marketing is about sales. And what you've just described is everything related to relationship management. And often what I've say is, you know, affiliate managers are not there to manage their affiliates. They're there to support and coach them. Because if you try and control that influence or creator or digital marketer, whatever type of affiliate that you that you're working with, whatever kind of traffic source they have, app developer, whoever it is, you're not going to get the best out of them because you're trying to control how and where they promote you. But obviously, from a compliance perspective, you know, there's rules and regulations about advertising codes and everything else. And yes, it is your job to do that as an affiliate manager, but it is not your job to curtail an affiliate from their creativity in terms of connecting you to their customer audience. I just want to encourage you to press pause right now, rewind, and listen to that again and then think about how you're managing your podcast going forward, because it's taken us years and years and years to realize that that's the secret source behind managing partner relationships effectively. And we're fast-tracking you here today on this podcast with, you know, people like Cheeps have been in the industry for so long. So thanks for sharing that. I just kind of want to nitty-gritty pull that out there because it was like gold.
SPEAKER_01And it's music to my ears when we talk about relationship management because that is what it is about. And we as a network, we don't view ourselves as here's what you have to do. That again, it starts with a question what are your goals? What do you need to do so that we can then empower you with the technologies necessary to accomplish those goals? But one of our philosophical core differences is we want our brands and our affiliates talking to each other as often as possible. It's about empowering them, it's about listening to them, it's about giving them all they need to do the best they can do under the circumstances. So yeah, I love that. I love it.
SPEAKER_04I love that. So we've spoken a little bit about the questions that clients need to ask themselves. We've spoken a little bit about the strategy that sits behind the attribution model and the different types of attribution models that can be implemented from kind of like first click to last click and which part of that funnel you want to either increase or decrease. What is the impact in terms of tracking attribution? Like, you know, we spoke a little bit about the technology, and I think this is where Link Connect is really, really strong. You built your platform to enable your clients to get increased data and ROI out of the campaigns that they're building. Where do you feel the affiliate platforms are today? Because as far as I'm concerned, there's very few affiliate platforms in the industry that are innovating. Like everybody's had the same stuff for the last five to seven years. But in terms of clients looking for technology stacks and partnerships that they need to use in order to implement attribution modeling, what are some of the key things that they need to be looking at?
SPEAKER_01So I think the first thing, there's a long list, Leanne. Sorry.
SPEAKER_04That's okay.
SPEAKER_01So the first thing you want to do is I think you want to understand against your program goals what your current attribution is not accomplishing. And so that starts maybe with the attribution reporting of your network, taking a look at where there is more than one click involved and figuring out what the decision is being made in that. And I'm really not talking about on a sale-by-sale basis. I'm really talking about from a 10,000-foot view. Oh, I see that when there is an overlap, voucher sites tend to get all the credit, and none of my bloggers or influencers are getting the credit. So, how can I affect change there if that's what your program goal is to better diversify your program? So I think it all starts with where is the overlap and what is your current attribution modeling? What are the decisions being made? And I think broad-based decisions are best, not trying to make this one transaction happen exactly perfect. I think you just kind of want to think of it again from the 10,000-foot view to say, okay, my influencers aren't getting any credit because they're mentioning my product and they're going to a voucher site or they're going to a loyalty site to get the cash back. And that's what's happening. And so, in order to do that, talk to your network about how can I ensure what are technologies I can employ within my attribution current model to tweak it towards something that works better for me. So the example we used earlier with the cookie list private coupon codes is a way to ask your network, hey, so when one of those is involved, yes, it's cookie less, but how does it interact with the rest of the ecosystem when uh cookies are involved? And it may be that when a cookie is involved, that overrides the cookie-less one, or and you can ask him to reverse that. And so those are the small tweaks you can make. Then you kind of look down the line is this working? Is it shifting? Am I better empowering the kinds of promotional affiliates that I'd like to empower and make other small tweaks? There's two huge considerations when you really look from the standpoint of just your affiliate marketing program that you're often competing against yourself with, that I think we should definitely get into here in a little bit. But but that's the best way to tweak it. And it could be okay, I am a big fan of uh, or I don't want to eliminate because Leanne told me not to, the voucher sites. And so I don't want to eliminate those, but I would like to remove credit when they're establishing that cookie once my users enter the shopping cart. I'd rather work from the brand exposure standpoint and treat our coupon sites more like a content site that's introducing or contributing to the sale. You talk to your network about that. How do I eliminate shopping cart attribution? So I want to work with these, but I want to do it under the certain circumstances. And so asking your network all those hard questions. And if your network refuses to answer, ask for other networks those hard questions. That's the way to move the needle slowly towards where you want to be from supporting your program goals.
SPEAKER_04And that's what you said there about taking a 10,000-foot view, because I think sometimes when people talk attribution modeling, like we go back with the data and we actually get lost in it. I always put it like analysis paralysis. You know, we we can get so confused about looking at that one sale and that journey and replicating that journey over and over again that you forget about the overall concept of why you have a performance marketing program in the first place, which is one to promote your reach and two to actually drive sales. But the one thing that I wanted to ask, which isn't actually something that we were going to ask about, but how does attribution modeling affect, because we are talking about affinity marketing around the globe, when you're an international global brand and you're working across different countries, when you might see, you know, like in the US, voucher codes and here in the UK as well, you know, loyalty cashback sites, they're huge, they're prominent. But what about other regions where maybe there aren't that many publishers of this kind? Like how do you then look at it from a 10,000 view, looking cross-country, not just cross-channel, if that makes sense?
SPEAKER_01So we're talking about a brand that has multiple international websites and they want to drive from those others. I think, you know, obviously it's going to be driven by the affiliate or the voucher code site willingness, their demand for your products or services and how to get involved. But I think structural programs. So I think, Leanne, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're asking this from the reverse. So I'm a brand that isn't working with coupon or voucher sites or in loyalty sites, and I want to get more involved with those. Now you're looking at your attribution from either is it my attribution that's causing that problem, or is it the fact that my brand isn't well enough known in those regions of the world? And now I can talk to those partners about increasing my spend, increasing my exposure to compete against my competitors. Who are doing better in those brands. And so now it's a conversation you're having with those more traditional relationship management saying, I want to introduce my product or service to your market. And can we talk about where on your website I might be able to do that? You have to make sure, I think from the first standpoint, that attribution doesn't get in your way of doing that. So if you're 100% first click, you might find yourself really disadvantaging these sites in a area you want to grow. And so if you feel your attribution setup should support that kind of expansion into those realms, then it's a function of engaging those in a more traditional affiliate marketing setup.
SPEAKER_04It's about keeping it in a significant against back to the question that you asked at the very beginning. What is it that you want to achieve? Do I want to drive more sales or do I want to actually push my brand reach? In which case here's a partner or a publisher that can help you do that in a region where you're not already strong. So it's very, very important to get that first set of questions right. So let's talk a little bit about the stuff that you wanted to touch on a little bit later. I don't know if I can bring you back to that.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So, you know, one of the two biggest disadvantages that a brand will face or large considerations a brand faces when they're trying to adapt their program to meet their program goals, their attribution, is how does that work with other marketing channels? And how does attribution work in your other marketing channels within your company? And so, as an example, if your internal display unit and your internal search team and those kinds of marketing groups all attribute credit based on last click, then you're having to fight with your CMO about, well, this credit, you know, I'm trying to drive to more introducers in this. And I'm competing head to head with this internal search group who's doing everything on last click. Your section of spend is going to be kind of forced into whatever your company. So it has to be a conversation that not only goes down as an affiliate manager, but goes up into the C-suite to talk to your CMO about how your channel is going to interact with all your other marketing channels. And so that's really, really important. You can't be judged internally on last click only and then force your program into this hybrid custom attribution setup model that really kind of rewards the content size because that content affiliate is competing directly with your internal searches team to close that sale. And so who does your CMO think that should get credit for that? Do they want to share internally those kinds of things? That's a conflict that can't be ignored and has to be talked about within the organization.
SPEAKER_04But often we still find, I mean, you're 100% correct, because often we still find that the affiliate teams are sitting in a silo and they're not even integrated with the paid or search teams. Like in the bigger companies now, but smaller companies, you know, it's one marketing person that's dealing with every channel and you know, maybe hiring an external agency that's doing SEO, but then they're not linking back to say, okay, well, how can we augment what that strategy is by using our partners? So there's still this disconnect and silo thing that's happening in the affiliate space where we're just kind of like, well, we don't really know what affiliates is, so you're just gonna sit on the side over there and do your thing. And it is important.
SPEAKER_01And I've been up on stage lots of times talking about this. I think affiliate gets really confusing for a lot of people because sometimes its own promotional method and sometimes it's a promotional method that competes with others out there. So it's more of a payment method. So as an example, you can hire an affiliate agency that specializes in search to do the exact same thing that you would outsource to a search engine uh marketing agency that's doing it on, you know, 20% of spend or something. Those two eight, those two entities can do the exact same thing, one on a percentage of spend with the brand's dollars and the other on a performance basis. And so they interact so much in so many different ways sometimes. And then other times it's this content site, and it's the only way that content site can earn money for promoting to you, and they're competing directly with. So you're right, it could be one person doing all these things, but if they don't think about how all those different channels interact and how they want to share credit across those, it gets really, really confusing really quickly.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and that's why you need a good technical platform that's popping up your affiliate program.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_04That's right. Just to throw that in there.
SPEAKER_01And there are lots of good ones out there, so yeah, like Link Connector.
SPEAKER_04We like to give credit where credit's due.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_04So, okay, we've spoken about tracking, we've spoken about data paralysis, we've spoken about asking the right questions at the start of this journey. Does it have to be overly complex?
SPEAKER_01No. Matter of fact, I would say more often than not, our brands end up with a few small tweaks to accomplish their goals. It does not have to be overly complex. It's really about employing specific strategies to improve to a more optimal mix, usually diversification of promotional type. It's usually just a couple of small tweaks that does it.
SPEAKER_04So nobody has to be afraid. Do not be afraid of attribution, is what we're saying.
SPEAKER_01No, it really is just a bunch of questions to your network or networks if you have multiple networks. And there's another consideration. If you have multiple networks, you have to think about the fact that if they don't have the same technical capability, then an affiliate partner is going to migrate to the network they make the most money. And if you think about that, you're not going to accomplish your goals because most of your networks aren't pulling the wagon in the same direction. And all you're simply doing is disadvantaging an affiliate in one network and advantaging another in another network. And they're just going to shift. So it's not going to change, even if you're only calling one network at a time, which everybody out there should only be doing that to avoid duplicate crediting. Even if you're only calling one network at a time, you have to think about which network has the technologies to support this group of affiliates and what I want to accomplish with them and have them constrained by those technologies by either forcing those relationships into one of your network partners or forcing both networks to align with what they have and hopefully avoiding the lowest common denominator.
SPEAKER_04So I'm going to throw this in here now, kind of Lacherry on the top. With changes in first party data, does it impact the way that we should remodel our attribution chains or our attribution genes? Or are we still in a place where we're not really quite sure how that's going to affect?
SPEAKER_01Well, so yes. What I think you're seeing, you you referenced earlier in this podcast that a lot of, especially the bigger networks, haven't moved and changed a lot over the years. And the changes in first-party data, the elimination of third-party cookies, what Firefox is doing, what Safari is doing, all of those challenges have been met, or are the networks across the board are being forced to meet all of these in many different ways. And so what we're seeing, I think, is the industry rapidly evolving to address some of these issues. And not all networks are equal. And so I think to the extent that a brand or an agency is concerned about those things, that's a conversation with their network. What's happening here? What have you done to address these issues? What do you have planned? How's this going to affect your tracking? How's this going to affect? But I do think it's exciting as an industry because it's forcing everybody out of that box that they've been comfortable in for so many years to say, yeah, what I said wasn't possible three years ago. We figured out a way to address that. And this is how we're going to do it. So it's forcing all of these networks to come up with technologies that can overcome some of these limitations.
SPEAKER_04See, now I love that because this whole industry has all has never stopped evolving. Like since the day I joined affiliate marketing 20 years ago, I have continued my learning journey. And I think that's what makes me so excited about working in this space because no two years are ever the same. You know, we're constantly developing on the fly, changing the way that we do things, learning the way that we execute things. And I think that's what makes this industry exciting. So if anybody's listening to this podcast and thinking about becoming an affiliate manager, I say just do it because you're going to never look back and you're going to love it and you're going to have a lot and exciting and rewarding career.
SPEAKER_01Well, one of the things, and just to go back to our conversation a month ago, one of my favorite things about this industry is to travel because you get to sit down and talk with so many smart people. So many people, way smarter than I am, that I get to sit down with and learn from and be challenged by and stuff like that. So that's what keeps me going in this industry as well.
SPEAKER_04And I think as industries go, like people in the affiliate marketing industry are only too happy to share their information. I mean, I've managed to coerce you to come on this podcast to share 20 odd years of knowledge. So thanks for that. Really appreciate it. So the big bonus question that I like to ask all of my guests as we explore affiliate marketing from all sorts of angles and all over the globe is where do you think affiliate marketing is going to be headed? And how is the lay of the land as you currently see it?
SPEAKER_01I was just getting ready to say my that's my least favorite question in this. And it's only because, Leanne, and you can go back and edit this out if you want, but it's only because it's only because what we just talked about. What we just talked about is the industry is constantly evolving and it's driven to evolve by challenges that we don't yet know what we're going to face. And so we don't get to determine the direction of the industry as much as the world changing and evolving, and all of us as entrepreneurs adapting to that leads us down the path that we try to create an optimal situation for our customers and how it goes. And it's not that it's my least favorite question because it's not a great question. I love that the question, I never know. I never know where this job's going to take me. I never know where we're going because I don't know what tomorrow's challenge is going to be that I'm going to face.
SPEAKER_04It kind of reminds me of forest up, you know, life's a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get. Welcome to affiliate marketing.
SPEAKER_01Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_04What I'd like to see, at least, and I'm sure you're going to agree with me on this, is more money spent on training affiliate managers and giving them the support that they need in order to evolve with the ever-changing industry that we're working in. Because when you're new to this industry, there is so much to learn to catch up. And then there's still continuous learnings thereafter. And I think a lot of people still see the affiliate manager role as a sales role or a customer support role. And it is so much more complex than that. You know, they really do need to have continuous on-the-job training and skills development. And I'm saying that, you know, whether you're working brand side or network side, whatever the case may be, it doesn't really matter where you're working in the industry, but just keep investing in your self-development and keep listening to podcasts or reading content and figuring out because it almost feels to me like looking back that, you know, being an affinity marketing, you're kind of you're kind of like a stock market trader because you have to read, you know, the trends that are coming in and how that's going to equate into what you do and your strategy moving forward. And I love that. I love the constant change. But you know, for some it might be a little bit daunting, I think. So just training is a big part of what I think we need to be doing.
SPEAKER_01And and unfortunately, as you know better than anybody, there's not a lot of formal training out there already. And so I mentioned the fact that I tend to think of this industry more as built by entrepreneurs and as that entrepreneurial mindset which drives people to learn and self-teach. And I don't mean self-teach by reading a lot or those kinds of things. I mean self-teach with that thing you mentioned earlier, relationship development. You know, one of the great things about this industry is generally you can sit down and talk to almost anybody in this industry, whether it's, you know, through podcast comments or whether it's just engaging at a trade show or reaching out via email. Almost everybody is willing to share their time and their experience. And so you, as an affiliate manager, just need to be willing to seek it out. And even other affiliate managers that you might consider to be direct competitors for you are generally willing to share their experiences and help you become better. And then as you get experience, you need to be willing to put yourself out there and say, this is how I do it. Do you think I can improve on it? Because the answer is yes. You can improve on it. You just need to go out there and ask people how, what their opinions are.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. And on that note, I want to just quickly self-promote our summit coming up in January next year. It is going to be exactly that. It is we're bringing together the best of the best. We want everybody to come. It's completely free. You're going to have flying or all experiences in live sessions with experts. And it's just going to be great that I'm bringing together my huge database of people that are going to come and speak at these events. They're going to sit on panels and chit-chat with me and we're going to ask the questions that these young affiliate managers need to learn. And it's just going to be a super fun networking event. So if you want to find out more about that, you can look in the podcast comments below. It's free to register. Everybody's welcome. Everybody's invited. And we're going to be bringing together the rest of the best to talk about these topics and look to the future and think about amplification. She's, I can obviously say this has been one of the funnest podcasts I've had in a while. So I really appreciate you being on here and talking about, you know, attribution modeling, which is a really complex thing that you know most affiliate managers shy away from, but that you've broken down in under 30 minutes with you know a clarity and simplicity. So I really do appreciate you coming on a podcast and sharing your knowledge and expertise. And we look forward to seeing you at live events again soon.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Leanne. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_04Thanks so much.
SPEAKER_02Amplify your digital and affiliate marketing performance next year and join us for our Affiliate Insider Summit. Taking place on the 17th to 18th of January, it's a free-to-register event to bring together a host of industry experts, brands, and publishers from all sectors to discuss the latest digital and affiliate marketing trends. Or you can elect to join one of our playful masterclasses and learn with industry experts how to master a variety of digital marketing skills. Amplify your performance at the Affiliate Insider Summit and register now at affiliateinsider.com and then click on affiliate insider summit. And that's a wrap for this week, Affiliate Insider, Affiliate Marketing Podcast. If you're loving what we're putting down in the series, head on over to Apple iTunes, give us a five-star rating, and subscribe to our podcast channel so you never miss another insightful episode. And tune in next week for more digital marketing insights and traffic driving tips, tricks, and strategies to keep your digital marketing fresh and your affiliate program driving consistent sales.