Episode 002: Getting Gutsy About Sex Over 50

Welcome to another insightful and interesting episode. Today we’ll be talking all about sex! Yes, sex! On the show, we have Dr Marion Dunn, who has been a Relationship and Sex Therapist for 45 years. Her practice involves working with couples and individuals who have issues with relationships or sex and sometimes both.

As a society, we love to refer to ourselves as liberated people when it comes to sex, but the truth is, it’s only our media that is sexually liberated. We find that women tend to be shyer than men when it comes to matters of sex.

This is an exciting episode that you can’t miss.

Listen in, learn and enjoy.

Key Talking Points of the Episode:

• Relationships in the mid-years
• What percentage of the population has the courage to ask for help regarding sex and relationships?
• Issues that affect older people
• Differences between men and women when it comes to the beginning of relationships
• How women over 50 should approach relationships
• Are men more curious about sexuality when they get older than women?
• Advice for people getting into new relationships
• The five languages of love

Transcript

spk_1:   0:03
welcome to our podcast at gutsy conversations over 50. This'd Susan this'd Heather on. We're too bad ass women who just happened to be certified professional coaches. We love our bold and courageous community who are not afraid to show up for real and vulnerable as we

spk_0:   0:25
will

spk_1:   0:25
embrace the second half of our lives. And here's the scoop. We've made it past 50. We've had our fair share of challenges and life's setbacks. But guess what way survive. In fact, we thrived. Absolutely. So here's to getting gutsy. Oh, yeah, This is

spk_2:   0:47
Have Erin on with Susan and we are doing testy conversations today on we have a very special gas. So, Susan, do you wantto give the intro? Yes, we have Dr Marien done. Who is a clinical social work therapist? L C s W PhD in human sexuality way talking about sex today that we will go on, baby. Awesome. We love Sachs. Let's do it, Maren. Do mind sharing how old you are on. Do you know how long you've been practice saying and what your practice is about?

spk_0:   1:18
Okay, I'm 82 a half years old, and I've been a therapist for 0/45 years. My practice is working with couples and individuals. We're having relationship issues or sexual issues.

spk_2:   1:35
I would imagine that that's not fairly large part of the population now.

spk_0:   1:40
Well, it's only the bravest people really come in for therapy, you know?

spk_2:   1:45
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Can you tell us more about that? Well, you know,

spk_0:   1:49
it's funny. We think of ourselves as a sexually liberated society, but it's only the media that sexually liberated the rest of us. A pretty shy in our hearts and parts. And couples can know each other's favorite flavors of ice cream. How they like this steak cooked and have never discussed what kinds of touch they like, what kinds of initiation they prefer any of the things that go into a sexual relationships.

spk_2:   2:17
Wow. I mean, I could totally understand that, because it's like, you know, our society on one, and we do say that we're liberated and especially women. We say that we're liberated and yet so many times were afraid to really share. You know what's going on inside of our inside of us, and sex is part

spk_0:   2:34
right? Or if women do share, sometimes they come across harsh and critical and like traffic cops in bed because we don't know how to talk to each other in a way that's positive and constructive.

spk_2:   2:49
What and what do you find works for your patients when it comes to opening up with each other? Oh,

spk_0:   2:58
saying something like, I really enjoyed being with you. But you know, I love when you stroke me lightly. Even if he never strokes her lightly, he thinks among that. Or it always feels good when we X y Z. So putting things constructively and giving information in an upbeat way can be

spk_2:   3:20
helpful. What happens when someone enters a new relationship in their mid years? Do you find that they have to become more in touch with themselves sexually? Or is it just the the intimacy and the communication between the couple that makes the difference?

spk_0:   3:35
I think in a sexual relationship, I mean in a second relationship is what I meant to say. Ah, sometimes people are a little more communicative. They know what might have been missing in their first relationship and being intending to change it not only the sexual relationship, but way they deal with closeness and intimacy in general. If they weren't to effect affectionate or the partner wasn't too affectionate. They may now, if they're lucky, have chosen somebody who's very different. So I think in a new relationship, you don't have some of the garbage that varies. People.

spk_2:   4:12
What do you mean by the garbage that Barry's people

spk_0:   4:14
old angers? Old hurts, having falling into a pattern that wasn't too good, that was destructive. Fights over the kids fights over in laws. Things like that, unfortunately, when not good at working these things out. And it's a shame because most relationships could benefit from good communication and sharing.

spk_2:   4:39
Absolutely every relationship could benefit from more communication. Just curious. I want to take one step back, because when we started, I need a I was saying that everybody could use a sex therapist, probably. And I'm just curious. What percentage of the population do you think are that courageous to come to somebody like you for help?

spk_0:   4:59
It's a minority of people. It's a minority of people, and again it depends what the what the presenting problem is if it's ah, unconscious, a mated marriage, young people come in. If it's discrepancy in desire, one person would liketo have to make love than the other person is not interested. Imbalances sometimes concerns over whether the partner is attracted to you anymore because they're watching porn, and you take that as a rejection. There are so many different things that can interfere with people's lives on this life.

spk_2:   5:43
So when you do counsel people, is it more than on the communication? Is it on their philosophies where you took we go first?

spk_0:   5:53
Well, I like to structure things a little bit, so I give them some pen and paper tasks. Three things I'd like to change about myself in our relationship. Three things I'd like to change about my partner in our relationship. Three ways. I was different sexually in our relationship three ways. I wish my partner with different in a sexual relationship and to put those in brief, positive, constructive sentences. So not I wish you a more romantic, but I wish you would hold my hand when we walked down the street. But being very specific about what they want and ah, very good prognostic sign is if the things that you want to change about your partner are also the things you want to change about yourself. That's a very good sign that there could be movement in the couple.

spk_2:   6:48
You find that more men and more really well, women are more willing to

spk_0:   6:52
lean in and get help. Depends on what the presenting problem is. If it's a man feeling very left out by his wife because she's not interested anymore, they may be more interested in coming in. And she is its theories. So it's hard to say, really,

spk_2:   7:10
Would you find that there are certain things that affect older people, like I'm 55 67? You know, we kind of talked to our community, you know, 50 and up Do you find marry? And that there are some issues that come up around men and we're women, you know, particularly like Justin Maxon of each group.

spk_0:   7:31
Sure, because people don't really understand the changes of sex and aging. For example, many women don't realize that postman a positively they're going to be dry, and it would be a good thing to use lubricants. They somehow feel that they shouldn't have to use lubricants, and their partners may misinterpret the fact that G. I'm making love to her the same way I always did, and she's dry outcomes not getting wet, which was a sign of her arousal, or men as they mature, even after the age of 60 need more direct, tactile stimulation of the Penis to get and keep an erection. They need some foreplay. And if you think about the typical couple since she took longer to arouse than he did, she may never have needed to touch him or caressed him. Now he needs the stimulation.

spk_2:   8:27
Yeah, so it's almost like the actual physical act of, you know, having sex or making love is going to change as you get older on. I think it's important to talk about it and bring this out in the open, because so many times a week, we know, feel shame, fall about our own body. But it's not performing in the way it used to. Yes, right, I imagine there must be a lot of shame that that comes comes to the office.

spk_0:   8:51
So shame and fear and many men as they get older, they're really afraid of losing it. And so any change in the firmness of their erection and they say, Oh my God, I'm over the hill. Also, you want more details?

spk_2:   9:07
Yeah, we love details. Yeah,

spk_0:   9:09
Also in men over 60 they may not always ejaculated on every occasion. They can maintain the erection, but they don't necessarily build to a climax. Or they have the sensations of orgasm without an ejaculation. And that's a normal variation of aging. And some women are distressed by that feeling. Um, it's incomplete. How come? You know I want to give him pleasure. How come he hasn't come? Men say the sensations in their penises. A delightful and the waves of pleasure. A delightful. And they just don't have the pressure anymore to build to a climax on every occasion. But women can misinterpret

spk_2:   9:53
that. Interesting. I would I would imagine also. What about interest? I'm now just hypothesizing here. I'm not in a relationship right now, so I kind of have zero interest. But I would imagine like, I know when I was younger, I you know, there were times when you think about it all the time. I can imagine that as you get older, maybe even just like thinking about it and wanting sex may change, and that's okay.

spk_0:   10:15
Well, I think there's a difference between men and women. When it comes to this, the beginning of relationships. Women are more interested, you know, And then that falls away. The thing is not feeling horny, but the willingness to be with your partner. Because one researcher, for example, looked at almost drawing a circle around interest in a women and women. And she was saying, What motivates most women to have sex is not desire or lust. It's wanting to be close and intimate with their partner, so that makes them willing to cuddle and stroh and what not and that might be all they wanted at that time alone. Behold with that cuddling and stroking, they may find themselves aroused. Once they're aroused, they start to feel desire. So maybe, and women often arousal comes before desire. So if a woman is waiting to feel horny and to feel really driven tohave sex, that may be unrealistic. Except in the beginning of

spk_2:   11:22
a relationship, you're saying a man just be aroused at any point, or a design or our Momenta very visual. Well, because you're saying that like a woman might not have the desire until there's arousal. Is that then implying that man could would have the desire even before around

spk_0:   11:41
no most, madam, The minute that their Penis starts to respond, tie it with desire.

spk_2:   11:47
Yeah, men say 55 60 plus a lot of them Take Viagra. See Alice different than women, I guess. I don't know. Women have that opportunity as well. When they do, take Viagra to increase your fire as well, adjust their erection or mentally doesn't make them feel comfortable that they'll get

spk_0:   12:05
an erection. I think the ladder is probably true. First of all, it's easier to get an erection. Direction for a man is a signal that he's feeling in the mood that he has desire. Now, a misunderstanding even about see Alice and Viagra is these pills don't work automatically. In other words, they only work with sexual stimulation. So unless there's tactile or visual or some kind of stimulation, the man is not going to get an erection. I had one patient who took a pill, went out to mow the grass and was waiting for the erection.

spk_2:   12:46
So, so, so interesting. I think that one of the things that Susan and I have in common is that we've obviously been married, divorced, you know, I have had relationships after my marriage. I'm I'm not in one currently. Susan isn't one. I do think that there's something that says and I have we talked about just amongst ourselves as women is that we are more powered. We're more in tune with our body, were more in tune with, like Harlan wants, like just as a woman like in life. And I'm just curious like how that would play out, you know, in the bedroom that, you know, being a woman over 50. What does that mean for us? You know? Where can we go in the bedroom?

spk_0:   13:24
I think it's important that we maintain our softness and approachability and, as I said, communicate in a in a loving and a beat way. Men are insecure, you know? Men have it hard. I mean, it sounds funny to say, but even if we're not aroused, we can engage in sexual activity. Okay? And Kent, if he's not getting a sexual response, if his Penis is not working, he's really nervous and worried about it, and they're you know an anxiety will interfere. Even with those pills. If a man takes a p d i p d five inhibitor like Viagra or see Alice and he gets nervous. He still won't get the erection or he'll lose an erection. Or

spk_2:   14:11
even if he doesn't get nervous, that. But if he starts thinking about work, Yeah, yes, yeah,

spk_0:   14:15
gets distracted. Well, that happens to women a lot. Susan. We're very distractible. It's difficult for women to focus on what's going on to focus on touch to folks. So I give a lot of touch exercises to couples, um, to get them to focus on touch and what feels good and and, ah, in a relaxed way because we daydream a lot. I mean. And it's not necessarily sexual daydreaming.

spk_2:   14:44
Yeah, yes, Sorry. So what kind of exercises do would you recommend? You said,

spk_0:   14:49
like a touch exercise, giving each taking turns, giving each other slow massages, not Swedish massages. Using some baby oil or massage oils of the hands glide over the body and the receiver, one who's lying face down has no responsibility except to lie there, and the other person explores their body for their own pleasure and sensations. In other words, just in terms of where the bony parts and where the muscular parts and what does it feel like if I put my hands like this? And what does it feel like if I go like this? So they explore touch. You know there's agenda difference in responsiveness to touch or experience with touch. Let's say if you think about it. Little girl Children, babies. Little girl Babies are held close to the bodies. Little boy babies are jiggled and tossed. Little girl toddlers are held close to the body. When parents walk down the street. Boys are encouraged to run free and be independent. Little girls stay on laps for longer. The hair gets played with they get stroked and what not. So it may be that women develop a broader body sensuality than men Dio. If you ask most women, where do you want to be touched at the beginning of lovemaking? They don't want their breasts or genitals touch. They want to be caressed all over. If you ask most men, where do you want to be touched? They'll say their genitals and then because they have no experience being caressed anyplace else. So when a man is the receiver, for example of flow sensuous massage, he could be amazed that there are other parts of his body that feel very erotic other than his Penis.

spk_2:   16:41
Now, that's really interesting. Yeah,

spk_0:   16:43
but anyway, so you get people touching in a nun in a non pressured way. Yes, you have no responsibility to turn that of the person on. They have no responsibility to be turned on, and so often it can be very pleasant and pleasurable

spk_2:   16:59
as faras connection. I mean, do you find people who like toe, spoon or cuddle with that make them automatically be more central towards each other or

spk_0:   17:08
spooning? Cuddling is all wonderful, and it can be an indication of a good sexual relationship. But for some people, that's all they want. We still don't want to necessarily have sex with their partners. I think for women, whether they want to continue being sexually active depends on how pleasurable sex was in the past. If it wasn't that pleasurable, they're willing to give it up. You know, that's interesting. Whereas men there was one study, for example, that looked at how long men were interested in sex in the life span. Okay, and what they found was it had to do with the strength of desire when they were young, not how often they did it, how often they wanted to do it. So those men with strong desire when they were young tend to be interested longer into the life spent with women. I have no data on this, but I've often felt it had to do with the quality of the relationship and whether the sex was good, although sometimes in a new relationship, because things of fresh things start again. One ah said to me, and I thought this was a very interesting line. Let me see if I can repeat it. I'm not sure that I want to want.

spk_2:   18:27
I'm not sure that I want to want.

spk_0:   18:30
In other words, I'm not sure that I want to work myself up toe want in case I'm disappointed. I thought that was a great line.

spk_2:   18:39
Yeah, I just wonder, you know, how many people really are just disappointed by sex? You know, we're like, on one hand, we have, like, movies that make it so amazing. Men, on the other hand, you know, sometimes in real life it's not exactly like you. No,

spk_0:   18:53
not at all. It's not like and unfortunately a lot of people of being educated by porn, particularly young people. And so they have no idea what reality is, right. Those women aren't having riel orgasms, and the men are being fluffed in between takes so that they could maintain erections for a long time.

spk_2:   19:15
I don't

spk_0:   19:16
know. Some people may have very high expectations, but sex isn't always that under the door. Well, sometimes it's Daddy that sometimes it's and

spk_2:   19:28
sometimes it's Oh, that was sweet. In other words, we have to have a realistic expectation and enjoyment of whatever happens, right? Yeah, The Times you call them quickies. And sometimes they were a little bit longer than quickies. And now, with my actually kissing the longer than you,

spk_0:   19:46
Well, no, no, no. What? You're dealing with those, Susan, What you're dealing with very often is mature woman because, as I said, men over 60 can last longer on these drugs because there's no buildup to ejaculate. Once they ejaculated or have an orgasm, they lose their erection. If they're not having the orgasm, then they can go on longer. If that's what their partner wants.

spk_2:   20:11
Well, I would imagine there could be some discrepancy that right? As an old woman gets older, she may not be ableto get as wet as you said. You might need some new publication on you. Then you have a man that has, you know, direction. Need me, like, for hours? Potentially. Maybe that our for many more minutes maybe. Like Like I'm already like getting chest pain. Just thinking, you know,

spk_0:   20:37
we're not talking about periods of time. Like

spk_2:   20:40
I got about a leisurely

spk_0:   20:43
sex not pumping, pumping, pumping come because he's gonna wear out and she's gonna wear

spk_2:   20:49
all right, because I'm gonna have to like, it's going to the gym a little bit more often until I keep up. Wow. How much is romance in sexual relationships as you get old. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that romantic exchange as opposed to just having sex.

spk_0:   21:02
I think it's very important and particularly important to women to feel desired, to feel cared about, to feel nurtured, all that. You know, the five love languages, right? Yes. So, um, it's also good to know what your partners love languages. And what your love languages, the love languages are touch affirmation, acts of service, quality time,

spk_2:   21:29
a little gifts. Guess you're right. Yeah, little gift. What does that mean? It means

spk_0:   21:34
a card, a text? Ah, flower. You know something for them to feel loved. That's what they need of the people. It's touch or other people. It's acts of service. Don't tell me you love me. If you forget to take out the garbage all the time, that's not love. And for some people Ah, it's quality time. You don't spend any time with me. That doesn't make me feel loved. I remember that I had a friend whose parents were very simple people. He was a tailor. They lived in public housing. But there was something about their relationship that struck me is so lovely. And I think I was 17. So with puts, but with nerve, I said to them, What is the secret of your relationship? And they said, never forgetting to say please or thank you. I remember thinking, That's nothing. What, what's big about that? But if you think about that treating the other person with respect and kindness and politeness throughout your marriage throughout your relationship, it makes the other person feel valued and you feel valued. Absolutely. Someone wrote a book. One of my colleagues wrote a book and he has a phrase and they're called good enough sex, Good enough sex because we have this illusion that sex always has to be spectacular and wonderfulness. And he says, much of the time it's good enough, you know, which is fine.

spk_2:   23:06
I like. I like that that comment actually that phrase, because we do have expectations often it on their unrealistic. Yes, they are, because we see whether whether it be movie stars or we think our friends or family or doing something more about her is like to compare and tow worry. Then you're having that spear. I'm not enjoying it the way everybody else is and you know, you just don't really know. But I do like that phrase good enough, because really, it's always good and not absolute. Absolutely. And you just did something. At one point, I think it was about the beginning of the there are there are differences between being a beginning of the relationship and then how how intimacy and sex evolves.

spk_0:   23:46
Sometimes I ask couples, especially couples who seem distant from each other and have lost a certain kind of spark. And what kinds of things did you like to do together when the relationship was new? Oh, used to love to go dancing. Do you have a dance anymore? No. We'd love to go bowling. Do you ever go bowling anymore? No. We used to love to go for long walks. Do you have a go for long walks together? No. So, very often. When work and Children and everything interviews, people let go of the things that made them feel close to their partner.

spk_2:   24:22
I could see that life getting in the way. Yes, yes.

spk_0:   24:25
And that's why planning things like a date night is so important and being able to get away from the kids and having a lock on the bedroom door so kids can't walk in all the little things that make a couple feel more comfortable with each other. When people care for each other, bodies feel good. And there isn't that kind of Oh, my God. I I've gotta make love under the covers. And I can't stand the way I look, I think working out and doing yoga and things like that. Not so. You have a perfect body, but so you feel in control of your body. You feel is if your body is strong, but that is helpful for a sexual relationship.

spk_2:   25:05
Yeah, but you're in touch like you say with

spk_0:   25:07
your body. Things sag, but but I can still do a down dawg I conceal. Do Bridge on Went Nuts.

spk_2:   25:15
Do you find that men are more curious about this sexuality when they get older? Would audience as as far as individuals, not as couples like you

spk_0:   25:23
spoke to men? Women think people are interested. Mill depends. I find that people are interested on People don't know a lot about sex or their bodies or their anatomy, or how their bodies work or any of these things. And they're fascinated to learn. So many times it's anger and resentment get in the way of people being close more than physical things. When you're working with a couple, it's not just sex. It's all the things that go into the relationship. What happens, you know, masters and Johnson said, We use it or we lose it. And to a certain extent, that's true that even masturbation primes the vagina, for example. But people who are totally abstinent then all women may lose some of their function. You

spk_2:   26:18
know. I gotta get to work. People. Oh, my God. No e. I gotta get moving. I gotta get online dating pronto. Uh, this is an emergency stop. Uh oh. Somebody you know, um, you know, somebody like name, right? Who has not been in a relationship. What? What advice would you give? Kind of going forward, perhaps being in new relationships. And I'm not just looking for sex, like I'm looking for a relationship. Friendship, Of course. So what advice would you give to me? And I'm sure things particular because now I understand, right? I understand what you're saying. Over these years, we might have had insecurities or whatever. So you know, what advice would you give to somebody like me in Arkansas?

spk_0:   27:13
Pick wisely. In other words, look for characteristics in the profile are in the first meeting with the guy that this is a person who has empathy, that he loves his kids that he has. He indicates some kind of wants. And, um, some of the men who've been divorced are the walking wounded, too, because they feel like they've been taken for all their money and they're not in good shape financially anymore. And they feel angry and heard about that. So it's important to be empathetic to that as well, you know? Absolutely. Yeah, on, um, look for good guys. And you can only know that by talking to them, you know, and getting a feel for the person, um, and what they're like as a human being and start slow. I mean, when I say start slow, you you don't have to have sex on the first night. I I I frankly don't think that's a good idea to you know, somebody a little bit practice safe sex. And it's one of the new realities on data as many people as you can. You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the prince of saying. And that's true.

spk_2:   28:23
And especially if you've been wounded or hurt or you have stairs. Yeah, my fear was someone emotionally stable, someone who was emotionally available. If we're moving onto, like, a second or third relationship in our lives, you know, whatever, like a meeting relationship that you both parties are gonna come in with even more baggage. Right now there are adults, kids will be grandchildren. There's other. Everybody has had their various hurt, But that still doesn't mean that we can't make it work. When I actually think about future relationships, I actually think could be really, like, wonderful, like the amount of, like, three time we both could have for each other because presumably we would both have older kid kind of looked over to like it could be really excited to tell

spk_0:   29:05
you that the relationships in your seventies and eighties Ah, lovely, too. Because, you know, you know that you don't have that much longer to live, and you want it to be quality and on again. There are fewer distractions and interruptions, which can be wonderful.

spk_2:   29:24
So when talk about baggage, let's leave it a door. And if you could really do that, then you should just be present with each other. Focus on the now with each other and then hopefully have many. Now's when I got divorced, you know. Now I'm already divorced nine years. But at the time when I was leaving the marriage, Um, I remember thinking, and I've shared this with Susan. Was that like I was a failure, right? I was supposed to have this one relationship was supposed to last until like end of my life over the years when I've done my own work and personal development, I'm realizing that, you know, relationships don't have to be your whole life, like right when we got to be myself. But not for the next 50 years. Maybe on just meant to. And many of us are meant to have new yours relationships. You know, maybe I'll have another relationship for the next 10 years. And then in my sixties and seventies, I'll have another relationship s okay,

spk_0:   30:16
and people talk about a marriage being a failure. But very often there were very good years, and it and there were good things that they did with the kids and stuff. It was only the end that didn't work out Well, good hunk of it was good.

spk_2:   30:30
And I don't consider my marriage Fowler anymore. My my marriage is just part of my life, and my ex husband and I are still really very amicable, so he's still gonna be part of my life forever. Right? But I'm not. He has another relationship. One day I'll have another relationship, and I think that's the beauty is to realise that there's more than you don't have to be one relationship for your whole life to feel successful in relationship.

spk_0:   30:55
That's true. I've had many,

spk_2:   30:56
you know. Yes. Exactly. And I think that maybe you're you're inspiring, like your online. And you're 80. Something like that, maybe. Yeah, it's really incredible, you know? And I think I think that this conversation for me really should had some ah ha moments. And I hope for, you know, our listeners in our community that they steal the staying because it's really important to talk about these things and not be so fearful without relationship and sex. Right? And we, uh, we thank you so much for being with us today. Way holds that you'll be with us another time. We can get deep into certain different subjects and get some questions from our community. So

spk_0:   31:36
very good fax for inviting me, Barry, and done. We love you and we appreciate your time. Thank

spk_1:   31:41
you. Thank you for listening to got to conversations over 50 and connecting with our gutsy community. More inspiration. You can follow us on Facebook and instagram at gutsy conversations over 50 until next time. Love you. Love you too.