Spark IoT Podcast

Ep. 7. Smart Cities

September 09, 2019 Russell Brown Season 1 Episode 7
Spark IoT Podcast
Ep. 7. Smart Cities
Show Notes Transcript

IoT is enabling the creation of "smart cities" using technology and data to make our communities better for working and living. But how is this playing out globally? And what might a smart city look like in New Zealand?

In this episode of the "Internet of Awesome Things", we look at the initial impact of IoT on public policy and urban planning.

First up, Russell Brown talks smart communities with Hamilton City Council Smart Cities Adviser Jannat Maqbool. She shares some of the initiatives she's been involved with and leading in Waikato, things like interactive smart spaces, smart collectives, and IoT Meetups. Jannat says it’s important to demystify IoT and let people play with things like facial recognition tech.

Then, Mark Thomas from Singapore-based consultancy ServiceWorks tells how Auckland missed a trick a few years ago when modernising 45,000 light poles without IoT sensors. These could've been used to monitor rainfall, for example. These assets are big opportunities – so too is the data they collect. Mark believes the "big data" collected through public IoT should be available to anyone who wants to use it to develop things for the public good.

Finally, someone who's well aware of the possibilities of IoT, and is busy applying many of them to our largest city, is Auckland Transport CIO, Roger Jones. He explains how AT is trialing "smart streets", with features such as solar-powered seats that can recharge mobile devices and smart traffic lights that link up with devices to help visually impaired people. Roger cites the connection between traffic systems and vehicles; if you're a 30-tonne truck coming towards a traffic light, it’s good to know whether you need to brake. Roger says that smart cities are all about people.

This episode about smart cities is the final episode in the series. In many ways, it's also the most important, because what plays out in this public IoT space is going to touch the lives of all of us, very soon.

Speaker 1:

Yokota welcome to the Internet of all some things, podcasts , all about the Internet of things. I'm Russell Brown. In this series we focused mostly on the possibilities of Iot for business and individuals, but there's a really big part of all this that involves the public sector too . And in particular the way the places we live in operate. The concept of a smart city is broad and it encompasses a spectrum of ideas, but any scent it's about deploying information and communications technologies to make more effective and sustainable use of resources and to make cities better places for people to live and working . It's a concept, but how's it playing out globally? Where is it working and what should it look like in New Zealand? To answer those questions, I'm delighted to be joined by Janet Mock , bold smart cities advisor to Hamilton City Council and the founder of the Iot Waikato initiative and knock Thomas the managing director of Singapore based service works, which consults on smart city initiatives around the world.

Speaker 2:

Well , welcome to both. Thanks. Now Janet. Uh , I feel like the term smart city means different things in different places. What's it mean in Hamilton?

Speaker 3:

Hamilton, it means smart society. It mean smart community. It means what is, we're actually really having a good look at, good . Think about and look at and discussion around what does smart mean and what does smart mean to different pockets of the community and what does it mean to a city that's actually there to um, to be more livable, accessible, and equitable , um, for its citizens.

Speaker 2:

How does it manifested so far? What can we see of it?

Speaker 3:

You can see a smart space. So there's the smart Hamilton initiative and then there's a smart space as part of that, which is really an interactive space designed to demystify technology on one hand and show what's possible , um, and is already happening out in the, out in the wider world. And that's a collaboration between industry and the council and community groups. And the idea is that then we look, so everyone that walks through the door should be able to resonate with something in there at least. And then there should be actually , um, we're not, not that they have to, but they, but the idea is to then encourage them to come in and give us an idea or work on a concept or talk us through something to cocreate a solution , um, from the perspective that they're coming from. There's the smart collective, which is a group of people that sort of get together on a regular basis and again, discuss what smart is and it's around collaborations and partnerships. And so to sort of drive that, and there are a number of other , um , pockets of things that are either happened or happening in the technology space, but it isn't all about the technology. It's a , it's just something that's behind the scenes. Um, that really is, is to enable that whole equitable , um, accessible and livable city.

Speaker 2:

Th The demystifying things interesting, but they sort of suggests that part of the process is taking people with you.

Speaker 3:

Yes, absolutely. There's no point doing it if you don't take everybody with you because then you don't get that diversity in the future that you need in thought and everything else. So , um, yeah, there's slight facial recognition technology in there that's designed to just let people play with it and just sort of get an understanding of what that might and what it looks like and that it's not too bad.

Speaker 4:

Most of these you do that. Yeah. Enabling people and engaging them in a way that they understand it as critical. And so you're seeing around some cities in Asia, actually in some museums you're seeing play spaces. What's the technology? What's the urban problems? And actually getting people, inviting them in kids to particularly to say, can you help solve this chill drop mark to see a lot of these places. Are there shared characteristics in the cities that are embracing the smart city concept? Um, look, I think the short answer is probably not because , uh , you know, even though the urban problems aggregators, transport or , um , environmental , um, the specifics are really often very different. Um, that's both an opportunity and a challenge, right? Because you're getting too much sort of origination one off , um, uh, production for something when actually if cities work together more collaboratively, particularly in such a small country such as New Zealand, I think you'd get more economies of scale, right? But actually you get that diversity feeding into a bit of product. Your company's based in Singapore and Singapore itself is as one of the more ambitious centers in the world. And in terms of this concept, I do kind of wonder whether that's related to the fairly high degree of authority that the state has the, well, I think in Singapore, if , um, if our countries worked as well as Singapore did, we probably would be as obliging. Um, but the other, the other side of that of course is , uh , you know, the, the, the Chinese Singaporeans, the Malays and Indians are actually quite demanding of the government. And I think the outside perception is, you know, they're all very compliant, but, but in fact, part of what Singapore has achieved is phenomenal transformation, particularly in technology as a function of a demanding popular sexually . Um, and then such phenomenal delivery that people have said, okay, that's great. But they're the ones actually pushing their government for more , uh , one of the smart city things Hamilton's done so far. Um, according to the website, as street lighting , replacing the old street light with led lighting. How's there the smart city thing

Speaker 3:

festival. It was a collaboration, so it was ended ta , um, the y can a district council on Hamilton City Council looking at an opportunity to do something different , um, do something that was around , um, smart technology before a reason other than just we , I'd like to need upgrading. So it was actually over a period of time and this about 15,000, I think. And it costs about just over $7 million, which was partly funded by and did ta and then, and then there was some contributions. But , um, the stories that is a is a story of collaboration because it wasn't just about , um, what light works for, for streets and cars, like cars on streets. Um , but it was actually in discussions with the observatory. It was discussions with the museum around um , the bet colonies as well to understand , um , discussions with residents to say, you know, how much light is actually coming into their households. And it was a whole conversation with the community and relevant stakeholders to then pilot and then out , um, lighting that in the end. If you think about from smart cities or often been , you know, the driven sometimes from the councils efficiency perspective and it is it saving the council, I think the estimates were about a quarter of a million in the first year, half a million in the second year because they, they have a longer lifespan and their lit needless maintenance.

Speaker 2:

I wonder if there's also an element in mark , you may have a thoughts here as well on the way that services infrastructure is actually important to the development of the smart city concept like poles economy , kind of important that they know .

Speaker 4:

Well, city assets are kind of the key enabling tool and a , I mean all can miss the opportunity to more enable our 45,000 light poles in 2015 when we went through the same process that Hamilton has gone through. And what I mean by that is show we upgraded the lights and got the lighting benefits, but we didn't put sensors throughout the network and Chicago at the same time was doing that. And so now when it snows in Chicago, they can kind of triage where the problems are. Uh , if we'd put the sensors then we would be able to do the same when it rains is always going to be areas that will flood. So, so the assets are the opportunity for the enablement. Um , and we're seeing more of that now, but much more [inaudible] element of building for ideas that haven't been heard yet. Isn't there ? The future proofing infrastructure. This is the conundrum and this is the nervousness. I remember NZ TA's first big strategy document a couple of years ago before the organ transplant alignment project, which is the agreement to fund sit said , look, we're not quite sure what's going to happen in the transport technology space, but we're keeping a watching brief and I get there, but actually the world is radically changing, particularly in transport technology and we've got to be more aggressive and more certain. I think about the future.

Speaker 2:

Uh, John , uh, mark mentioned sensors there, which of course are a key part of a , an iot ecology are probably the most prominent voice in the Marco on, on the Internet of things. Where is the city yet where they're at , what parts is going to play?

Speaker 3:

Um , I think we're very much at the , um, at the tinkering stage, I guess at this point. So the Iot Waikato initiative that when tick kicked off a couple of years ago was about bringing that technology and a conversation around that technology to a number of stakeholders that was off the back of Alex visiting from Iot London. Um, and , and it's worked and people would get together in the room as much as they are there to listen , listen to a speaker that actually there to connect with other people that are interested in the same technology. So we've had , um , examples of experiments , um, with sensors and gateways across quarries and farms and , um, things have been blown up. Things have drowned , things have broken. Um, and they've actually fed that then back to this, this group of people that are, that they bouncing ideas off . Um, in terms of the council itself, we're looking at an iot telemetry project, which is actually just getting things that are already talking to actually talk to each other or to somewhere. Um, and, and the mission that together to actually provide some insights. We've got the data from the lime scooters that just came into town recently. We're looking at what that looks like , um , together with other information to provide information on smart mobility. Sort of in that, in that perspective. But in terms of the hype , um , we are still tinkering. It is still a new uh , wonder what this can do. I wonder how far we can push it. But there is with the Smart Hamilton Initiative , um, definitely a movement to sort of think then how is that relevant to our stakeholders. So an example of that is blindsquare and having a look at what that is for the visually um, vision impaired existing assets that we have in the city and actually looking at new things that we're doing, like the new transport hub and how technology can , um, apply to that. And iot applies to that.

Speaker 4:

Mike who we would share these in the world. Uh, really through the tinkering stage , especially in the handling of, as Jeanette said, all that data that's being generated, who , who's really doing it. So the IDC is a research group that publishes awards every year. They do it globally, but in the Asia Pacific they have just put, there are 12 category one is out and people should check out that website to look in. In our region it's Singapore, obviously it's also Taipei , uh , and soul. Those are three of the kind of big winners I suppose. Tokyo is doing a lot of interesting stuff , uh, ahead of the Olympics. But in our part of the world, we've got a couple of , of great exciting projects happening here. New Zealand won three awards, which was terrific. So , uh , it's a mixture, right? Um , New Zealand's challenges. We haven't really aggregated that across the country. Um, so you've got cities that are bigger than us doing a lot more and that's the opportunity. But in our region, we've got a lot of places we can look to. There's a , is there a conversation going on between different cities because there are several New Zealand cities who have this vision. Are you talking?

Speaker 3:

Yes, we are. Um, so the Australian New Zealand, the Smart Cities Council Australia and New Zealand has managed to collate , um , we'll get us together on calls regularly, not just with other cities in New Zealand, but actually across Australia as well. So I've, I've spoken to Renmark, I've spoken to Invercargill and Napier, Tauranga , um, you know, Christchurch, Wellington, Auckland and Hamilton is doing things talk at all, was doing some cool things in the iot space and smart cities space and then some and some cities in Queensland , um, as well. And obviously , um , Bendigo and their initiative around the weather. And um, it is a great opportunity and it's really important , um, in that, in that just sort of no reinventing of wheels and hey, this is what I learnt and this is the approach that we took and this worked and this didn't, especially because it can't be conversations I think between Hamilton and Sydney. So it has to be Hamilton and Renmark or Hamilton and Bendigo. Um, and that's really useful to have that connection.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, that's interesting that all those centers are on this pathway. It doesn't just have to be big global cities. Does it , it works for regional centers too. Oh look, it absolutely does. In fact, there's more progress being made in smaller cities. I mean actually internationally most cities are small. Of course we here with the London's in New York's, but if you look about, talk about the u s I mean tiny local governments, Australia, tiny local governments. I mean Sydney is obviously five and a half million, but they've still got 33 mears in Sydney. So, so lots of things are happening in small towns and what I'm a big fan of is aggregating that more. And so we need, I think centrally in New Zealand, greater leadership , um , land information. New Zealand did this big study in 2015 , um , canvassing the work that was being done in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and said, look, maybe if there was a central hub, not just a preset, but to help sort of enable it and kind of share , maybe New Zealand Inc could be making more progress. What's the low hanging fruit for this as is it transport? Well, the , the first low hanging fruit is data because the , the things that can be most achieved are achieved through great thinking and use of data. So before you start on the assets stuff, transport , um, you've got to, you've got to have some kind of data strategy and some tools to help you and ensure transport is the problem in most cities. So looking at how we can gather data more, we've all got phones that, that produced data. Google analytics captures that data. The data is available actually, but many of our transport regulators still don't have a way to , to use that to actually make it easier for us to get around our cities. Yeah. I'm , I'm interested in what you both think about the best way of handling all this data that we're generating is , is there a best practice because there are going to be third parties who think that they can make good use of this as well.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. There is. Um, I think we're in a good, I actually think New Zealand's in quite a good place because we haven't, we've, we're developing our policies now we're having the discussion. We're having the conversations now we've got [inaudible] the having the same conversations. Um, and I think it's an opportunity to at the same time trial the technology as it is about that conversation to do with data. Um, data governance or, and even the idea of , um, I was reading somewhere recently about about, you know , you owning your own data and then you having rules around who, who, who and what devices access that information from you. And actually it's just you and the device communicating. But then in other situations where we want to keep some, since this is sort of the variants and the diversity of our population, some people might want to keep information confidential that identify as a population, but then there are some groups that would like to identify, know what's the heritage of these people or what's the background of these people? And there's some information that does need to come. So it's a , well, I think we're in a great position, but I agree with , um , the comment to do with a body that can sort of pull those conversations together. And the , and the other comment around , um, you know, it's the, it's the tech sector. I needed to come to the party with infrastructure providers and everyone that's always done everything to do with cities and have that , have that connection but have the , and that's what smart Hamilton Hamilton's trying to do is bridge that, make that sort of collaboration. The private private and public partnership happen. So yeah,

Speaker 4:

we need 21st century public libraries in the sky. So I'm an advocate for what I call data Commons. If we think about libraries, I mean sure you can go in and nick a book, but people tend not to because we have established rules around that. So this hangup we have with data is partly because we don't share it enough and we don't think of it in the same way as a public library. So let's have our cities in our countries move towards that as a model for operating where actually almost everything's available. Of course there are rules about how you use it, but we encourage sharing and we encourage people adding their own individual knowledge to make it stronger. Well then come back to this, this idea of public buy-in, because we're talking about the massive amount of data being collected and being acted on. And to be honest, I've been down the pub and talk to talk to people about this. And the response is not actually that positive because they feel like they might be spied on. How do we handle that ? I mean, because they don't know what's happening. And that's my argument that actually Facebook, all of the big players, they should make it immediately available. So the first thing we should see is the dashboard, right when we go into our Facebook profile was all of the data that's being collected. So we can kind of look at it and think, actually no , I don't want to, don't want you to collect that information, but that's not how it works. So I completely also speak to the same people in the pub who have the same concerns. So because large organizations and governments and cities hide this stuff, you know , you know, we actually fist to this growing concern , um , and it's , it's already biting us in the ass.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. And it is a knowledge thing and it is an education thing and it has to be an education and knowledge that's delivered , um, to everyone and the way that they , um, absorb information and in the way that they access information. And , and , and it's, it's a key part. It's that goes back to the same old same, I was used to be a CIO and if you do , if you did an it rollout or a system software roll out , the biggest peaks that you had to do was the change management. You know, it doesn't matter how good this thing was if you didn't have everybody on board and they weren't understanding its application benefits , um, and issues, you know , um, that change management piece needs to happen. And I think we're, we're New Zealand at the moment is we're thinking about, we know that the change management has to happen. There's no one really pulling that together. And the technology, everyone around the world, as Mike as sort of alluded to is , is doing things and we want to jump on the bandwagon, but we need to have both things aligned and we need that collaboration.

Speaker 4:

Um, just, just in conclusion, it strikes me that the , you know , the, the possibilities are great, but it's as if the , the , there was a group of different things that, that have to change in parallel with each other. Everything from future-proofing lamp posts to , uh , d data Commons. Uh, there's quite a spectrum of things that need to change out there. Um, there really is , um, I'm a big one of trying to distill problems down to threes. And so it's part of grappling with this. You've got to have a very clear articulation of a problem you can solve. There's no point trying to solve world hunger if, I don't know you're not God or something. And even God seems not to have done a great job with that . Right? So have a clear problem then you've got to have a leader. You've got to have a champion. They can actually be anyone. They don't certainly have to be the chief executive or the mayor. They can be anyone who observes that they can be a power for change. And then you've actually got to have a clear idea about what you're gonna do. Strategy Plan. There's a nervousness and some of the cities we work with to have a smart city plan. That's sort of for some is I don't want to have all the it vendors coming in and giving me their ways . But those three things [inaudible] problem. A leader in a plan are at the heart of grappling with this really big challenge in my view.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. John , that's interesting because the, the iot vendors coming in , um, that's been a effect of local government for a long time. But then in a way, this isn't really about the ITV and this is it.

Speaker 3:

No. And we've, we've um, with the smart space, as soon as we , we put up this concept of the smart space and all the conversations that we've had for a very long time, vendors understood it as an opportunity to display their wares basically and put their brand up. And yes, their brand is there and yes, it talks about what they can do. But actually the conversation is really what is the context, what was the problem, what was the solution, what was the outcome? And then a little bit about the technology because the audience isn't a purchaser or the audience is actually a user and somebody that's going to be impacted by that technology. And the conversation is just as relevant to all of those as it is between the buyer and the seller of a solution or a possible potential solution. I mean, without, without an application, technologies , just technology and really you should. Um , I like this concept I heard recently about , uh , about software as a city. I think it was city as a software, you know, and really the city behind the scenes should just enable things. And the conversation is about how you use this software, which is a city , um, little in and not about , um, what , what's making it we are , we don't worry about sewage pipes and we don't worry about where the water goes and all that. I certainly don't think about it. Um, and that's where technology needs to be behind the scenes. And that's the , that's what we're trying to do with the Smart Hamilton , um , initiative around that collaboration approaches that my role is to, is to come up with a , with, as Mike alluded to, like a problem or an opportunity, I call it in some cases. And then to connect the technology provider through through may two to this, to this potential user or application and actually not that out for what it really is and what the potential is involving the right people. Um, and then what's displayed in the space that other people interact with is , is, is the outcome.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, I'll look forward to this conversation unfolding and I'm quite confident you're both go to be a key part of it . Cheers. Thank you. Thanks Russell . Jonathan locked all of smart to the Hamilton and Mark Thomas of service works done now for a deeper dive into a specific smart city topic. Transport with me now is Roger Jones, executive general manager of technology, the open transport and an unabashed agent of change or welcome Roger. Hey, welcome. Good to be here. MMM . The hell has Auckland transport addressed the smart city concept? What's it mean to a t ?

Speaker 5:

So it fits into the bigger ecosystem of the whole city. So we're obviously, we have transport focus, which is all about roads moving people around. So we have to fit into the bigger landscape of how you get a smart city and what that means to the community and the citizens and the visitors that come here. So from transport perspective, it's how we interact with all those citizens and people coming here very in mind that tourists and things have an overseas experience. So they come here with a preconception of what, what should be available to them as a tourist in terms of um , technology, data and information. And as citizens here, they travel a lot and they also have expectations that the city will provide them with exactly what they need comparable to the overseas experiences if they have them.

Speaker 2:

I guess it's a key thing that , that it is not just responsible for the vehicles that travel around the streets, but the streets themselves and the services that that's quite key, isn't it?

Speaker 5:

It is very key. And, and people tend to forget. We were also just as responsible for ensuring that the good can get around the city because it's over good people getting around, but people need things to eat and live in these days with click and collect. They expect their goods to be delivered home. So it's about making sure that the freight industry and all that commercial industry and the plumbers never think can get around the city as well.

Speaker 2:

Um , now speaking of streets, there's also a smart street in development down that winyard. Tell me about that.

Speaker 5:

So what we've done in , uh , when your quota is we working with some of our , um , vendors and s and some of them supplies to showcase what's the out of the possible. So new innovations that might impact on I street scanned Skype in terms of technology or data or information to people that are using those facilities or passing those facilities. We are putting that technology in. So things like a solar pad seat, which will recharge any bike and which you can plug in a fine, tragic , smart censoring on air traffic lights , um, to indicate when people are actually waiting rather than just pushing the button. We put some , um , smart technology in the , a full , the visually impaired people so that we'll integrate with their , um , mobile phones and things. So then I went across , um, because I obviously they can't see, so we're doing all sorts of stuff. They're in contrast with their partners to showcase the out of the possible try things and yeah. See what's possible.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. The , that's interesting because several of those things he just reeled off. There are responses to needs in the community. I guess you could say the same thing about the shift to ecommerce and , and dispatch and that kind of thing. Is there, is that something you have to keep in mind is what the people actually need?

Speaker 5:

Yeah. It's all about the people. So smart cities is all about people and what they need and what they want to get around.

Speaker 2:

Now one thing you see there , then the vent . Um, the , the , I moderated last year and I've seen you say it a few other times as the big solutions are dead. What's that mean?

Speaker 5:

Well, if you take for us , um, for instance how best , um, prediction engines , uh, we used to buy monolithic systems, very expensive, very proprietary to trek buses, ran the city and put the um , arrival times on the signs and things like that. And what we've done is broken it down into little components and using components from IWSR from was you from the patties you can make pilots and services and then as one it gets better , you can rip it out and replace it so you can constantly be improving and looking to do it better and cheaper than buying one big system. I mean, the current system that was in there was 15 years old for example, and we really couldn't afford to replace it doing it this way , lot cheaper and it's more flexible. What part does the Internet of things play in what you're doing now and how has that gone to play out in any of the things is , is is huge. Um, especially with five g coming down in a few years time they will have big impacts on the way data and information is communicated to people and vehicles and things like that. We're starting to see that um, now, but for instance traffic lights, if you're a city, no city ton truck coming down towards the seat of traffic lights, that would be nice to know if you have to break or not. Uh , or whether you going to get a green light and that has fuel savings at his , um , you know , saving this for the cow user as well because if you stop a truck like that and it goes green, it takes a long time for it to get going again and you only get one truck through if you can smooth that thing out then if you want benefits. Yeah, that's interesting cause that's, he is another angle. It's not just about the vehicles you're responsible for. Where in an age where telematics is going into a vehicles operated by ordinary people out there, how does that affect what you do? It's a new lens. It's a new way of communicating to people. So that's another communication channel to devices and vehicles. And so we have to work out what information people might want and how they could be delivered in an essentially a non-distracting manner. And what do you deliver to them? Because you don't want to deliver useless information or information overload, but what is it that they actually need? So we do a lot of work currently with citizens and people to find out what it is they're after and then we're trying to work out how we'll deliver that. And a lot of that's about the way you handled data. Your , I mean, the systems that you developing now are gonna already generate a lot more data. Um, where are you at on the road to actually making the best use of that ? So we clicked a lot of data and we're going to click the lot more as you say in the future. So we're starting to use it as we always have for transport planning, but we're now using it for predictive analytics. Say for instance, we are working now on the ferries , so if you're on the last fury home and the last bus is waiting for the fear and the fear is running light, the bus is contracted to leave on time. We now have the ability to work out whether we should hold that bus because we know how many people are on the ferry. We know how many people are going to be impacted of the downstream bus stops. So using predictive analytics, we can now make suggestions to our operators about hold the buses running three minutes and these city people going to be impacted. Or actually it's three minutes and there's only one person and we can do something different for that one person. So there's, it's an evolution, but it's more about the predictability. And then how do we get that to our customers so they know what's going on.

Speaker 2:

Did you have a view on, on uh, how much and how third party should be able to access the kind of data you're working with? Cause there are third parties who want to provide, you know, things like traffic information. Yup .

Speaker 5:

So we make a lot of our data available through public KPIs . Uh , we embrace the government initiatives are in open, open source and open data. Um , we are working to constantly try and make more data available , um , to those parties. We can provide the solution for everything and people will take out data, integrate it to other bits of that or make it useful to people in a different way. And that's great.

Speaker 2:

Uh , one thing I've, I've been reading quite a lot about in terms of smart cities is the idea of mobility as a service. They're the multimode journeys where you hop on a, on a, an a scooter to get to the bus stop to get to the train. Um, how far away are we from that and how's it going to come to pass

Speaker 5:

at a concept level overseas? We see that wishing and some European cities have awaken here. It's a little bit , um, more difficult. We see ourselves as a facilitator, we're not convinced and we are doing a lot of research at the moment, grand way the we should be the the collector of the cash for the title Jenny and responsible for the journey . So you pay for your lime scooter and you pay for your basket and you pay for your Hebrew or taxi, whatever. The other thing is that [inaudible] to come through us or is at the operator level , those decisions that way we are looking at the moment and we were wishing rather our customers ran to how does that pan out? Because if you start a trip and something goes wrong and you've already paid us for the complete journey, how do we make that right for you and it gets more complicated. Say , yeah, we can three days in terms of how we'll actually work here in New Zealand.

Speaker 2:

I guess in some ways devising things like that that are software based is , is, is easier than maybe some of the infrastructure changes you're going to have to make because the , there's, there's a key part for infrastructure and the idea of a smart city isn't there.

Speaker 5:

Absolutely. Infrastructure and we're still, we're working towards that. Now you know, what is going to be in a new subdivision? What infrastructure do we need to put the , we're already putting in piping and with five Jane Mesh Networks on the Poles , um , led street lighting. Um, you know how you couple that together. Atonimous vehicles, how would they would work in the air ? How you get parcels picked up and dropped or a new couch picked up and dropped into some of those new suburbs in the new way of living with smallest streets and you're not necessary home. So how do we coordinate that? There's a lot of thinking going on around that .

Speaker 2:

No , speaking of autonomous vehicles, I geese that, that you are expecting to be operating some of those. And then what the next five years,

Speaker 5:

I wouldn't say the next five years. Um, you know, the research we see is that is still some distance away and we realize that there's some working overseas, but there's still issues around the liability of those cars. And we expect to see that played out, especially in the u s um, you know, when there's an accident, he who do they sued in the u s is not so applicable here, but the issues of liability we think will slow down the adoption of those vehicles apart from lightspeed or vehicles operating in a closed environment like the Cross street g airport, which is lightspeed closed environment, relatively safe, public transport, autonomous vehicles will come first. I think the trucking industry is probably further advanced. So if you look at the u s pontooning trucks as reality in some states that's a state tool , true autonomous vehicles. Um, so I think the trucking industry and the car industry will drive ahead of public transport. And just finally it's this whole thing as , as a big digital trend, transformation four 80 and the council as a whole, how far or how far are you through this out of team? I think, you know, nobody has defined the actually what a smart city is. Um , everybody has smarts in a city and different cities have different smarts . So it's very hard to gauge how far you along to , to something that's unknown. Um, but I think we're up there in certain there speaks . Um , you know, I look around the world, every city's are hidden some bits and behind in others and I think that's very applicable here. We're definitely hidden some areas and we're certainly up there in the leading edge on bits and pieces and we're behind on other bits and pieces. Well I think it's going to be fascinating to watch. Thanks Roger. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Open transports technology chief Roger Jones and lets the end of this episode. And with that, the conclusion of this season of the infancy of the wall , some things, if you'd like to learn more, you can go to spark.co. Dot. NZ Ed Ford slash iot or email iot@spark.co. Dot. NZ. And if you just can't get enough, feel free to check out my other podcast actually. Interesting, which is about artificial intelligence that's brought to you by Microsoft. And you can find it in the future section of the spinoff website, or they say , you'll see me around the traps talking iot. But for now, thanks heaps to our guests, to Gareth Thomas for our theme music, to keep his sound design for the production magic to spark for making it possible. And of course, to you for listening. I've been Russell Brown and it's been a pleasure talking to smart people about smart things. Good boy .