Abortion - Josh and Chris Hawley

After a 5 week maternity break, we kick back into gear. In this episode we sit down with Josh and Chris Hawley and discuss navigating our emotions, and how abortion has played a role in our lives.

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Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
Thank you for listening to the distinct podcast deep sought at hospital, laying in a hospital bed, listening to that beep while my kids are being baby sitting. It's like Disneyland. Uh, so it's just me. You, Michael. It is. I don't e um I think I'm pretty sure my water partially broke. It's 2 11 way. We're on our way to the hospital and contractions are getting closer, but not too bad. Okay, welcome to Baby U. S. A. Today So way. Our times at 8 12 8 17 They were soul in triage. My contractions Air Force. Four minutes of her and, um, more painful. But so we're getting ready to be asked at some point, I'm sure a question which I hate hearing, Which is a thing, Dad. Different. Dad. Why is that even a question? So it is now 11:28 p.m. We've been here for nine hours of mama's contractions are getting mighty strong. More frequent. Who? She's going through one right now. Yeah, I can talk. I'm fine. Um, he said they're lost. The contractions were lasting 2 to 4 minutes long, so they're pretty long and painful. How are you feeling I have a headache and I have a among grating. Ask me how I'm feeling. Eight since one Ask me how I'm feeling. Uh, you look like you have to pee or poop. My contractions are getting closer and closer snow. So it's 11. 30. Mommy's water officially just broke it pop, and she, uh, told me to get the nurse. And so she's here. Confirmed it. Baby should be here soon. Mama's having some serious contractions right now. I caught the last one, all right? You know, I asked her that she's Shrum and her time and well, I didn't like her. No, but you said you I shall make sure I take my head out. Do they have, like, a gown and gloves? 25. Wait oh! Recorded live from Fresno, California This is the distinct podcast. Today's guests are probably best known for serving together the past 20 years, and ministry Joining us today are Josh and Chris Holly. Josh is one of the pastor's at the Well Church fit Garden campus and Chris. She's an incredible mom to her kids and an awesome wife to her husband, Johnson. Chris have been married for 24 years and have three incredible Children. Josh is very passionate about marriage and missions in. Recently, I believe the family made a mission strip to China. I'm sure we'll hear more about that today. So let's join Nick and Andrea and their guests dollies. Well, we

spk_3:   4:12
wanna again, thank you guys for coming on. We have the pleasure of watching live your testimony at re engaged, and then obviously Josh sitting under your teaching has just been amazing at the fig campus and, uh, summer at north. Um, and then we were able to watch your testimony again on online a few days ago, and that was just powerful toe here. How? You've kind of grown grown up in a Christian home, uh, and then becoming part of the church leadership that being apart, you guys both being in ministry for 20 years. So I'm curious, uh, again selfishly and just going through what we're going through, Um, and you can tell us how you got into it and maybe a couple back stories about it.

spk_1:   5:02
Yeah, I've been to this coed Bible study, and then I got invited to a men's study. And when I went to the men's study, the accountability was so much more intense. I was like, This is what I need. So I quit going to the coed study. I started a data, a Christian gal for a couple months. We went to Mexico, and essentially, she dumped me. If you do that trip, so now I'm like, All right, I'm free now to go coed Bible study again. I guess I wasn't really thinking all that much. I was just like a I'm not going out with her tonight, so I'll go to this Bible study again. I still got my guys s. So I go to the Bible study and Chris is sitting there, and I'd never seen her at this study before. And my first thought was like, Wow, that's a fine looking woman right there. And a four course I'm like with a baseball hat on backwards jeans and a T shirt. Probably looked like a doofus, but she's dressed all nice and everything. So I walk over and she's sitting with us next. This guy that I knew, um and we're like the 1st 1 Is there something like I'll tell him some jokes, you know, like things up. So I'm telling him so. Well,

spk_3:   6:08
you're so confident, like, go tell people jokes like

spk_1:   6:11
that. I know, right? So

spk_2:   6:12
he was a little cocky, so I didn't apparently.

spk_1:   6:17
Yeah. So we've been on this missions trip where the theme verse was Matthew 16 starting verse 25 for whoever would save his life will lose it. But whoever loses his life, for my sake will find it. So that was our theme verse for the Mexico Missions trip and became a joke. Because our team leader, this is about 1993. I want to say he had these ripped up jeans that apparently looks like they're popular again. Now they actually sell him ripped up back. Then you buy him and over time, rip him up so you could look like Bon Jovi or whoever. Now they're selling them like that. But regardless, uh, he had this favorite pair of jeans that were completely ripped up. We were asked by the pastor's wife in Mexico. Give us the clothes you want wash will wash them for you. And then some of our clothes got mixed up with bags going to orphans and an orphan house. And so, apparently his favorite jeans had had gone to the orphans, and he didn't know it. And he always talked about these jeans being his favorite. So I went up to him and I said, Ah, hey, would you be willing to donate your favorite jeans to the orphans of young people? He goes, Would I would I be willing Sure will actually do it. No. And I said, Well, I'm sorry to tell you've already done it and he just freaked out. He's like, No, you know, he started freaking out. So I said, Hey, whoever tries to save his pants, we'll lose them. But over. Uh, So I used that joke, right? Whatever gives up his pants, we'll find them. And, uh so I went up. Yes, you guys are kind of laughing. Courtesy laughs anyway, So I went up to Chris and this that guy, and I kind of told him that whole story and, man, they just stared at me so they didn't even smile. They didn't even give me a courtesy laugh. Yeah, there was some tension in the room. I didn't know the guy had asked had asked Chris out on a date and numerous. She didn't numerous times, and she had told him no numerous times. So there was a tension already there, but I didn't know that. So all I knew is bother just staring at me, and I'm not saying a word or anything. So we didn't get off on the best footing then during the study were in Corinthians about some things may be permissible, but, you know, I won't be mastered by anything and essentially the text on not any meat sacrificed to idols. If you know it'll cause a person next to you to stumble. So you equate that modern day application with things like alcohol. Well, I can drink alcohol, but my friend here is an alcoholic or he just he grew up in such a way that it it'll mess him up psychologically. So I'll choose in his presence, not to drink or whatever the case may be. And then Chris shared that Ah, one of her roommates still practice Lent. So she did not eat pastries or sweets during Lent. And so she would try not to eat, you know, don't

spk_2:   8:55
have never Catholics. I don't know why you came, she continued. She just wanted to Yeah, that's

spk_1:   9:00
fine. you know, people do it for some reason. In the room that became a humorous and some of the, well, a couple of a couple other guys. Couple of the guys started.

spk_2:   9:12
They knew her.

spk_1:   9:13
A couple of guys started making jokes about it. Some of the general, you know, jovial mood. I pitched in, um, and I said So what happens if if you eat a doughnut in front of her is she gonna like, you know, go to the nearest donut shop, Just gorge yourself on a whole dozen. I mean, what's the big deal? And then people are laughing, right? You know, like you guys are laughing and all of a sudden Chris just goes and right after I talked

spk_2:   9:37
to have been a question about two years, So I was really, like, trying to follow everything, you know?

spk_1:   9:41
She said well, and she was actually right. I think she said, because there was This was a real person. We're talking about that a lot of people in the room newer, and, uh, she said, You know, we shouldn't be making fun of somebody's convictions when they're not in the room to defend themselves. And it was just like, Oh, we're from that laughing to just, you know, Shane Silence. And that was it. That was my whole first interaction with her. So she wasn't too impressed. I don't think I like your wife.

spk_3:   10:09
Just like I mean, that's your wife, right? Yeah. Everyone thinks it's funny, but me,

spk_0:   10:14
I know we've had that conversation a few times over the years.

spk_1:   10:19
Um, but I put down, Yeah.

spk_2:   10:24
So, watching your testimony online, I could relate to your dad. You said that he had just left because I've related, maybe tell us a little bit about that. About your dad leaving, like, do you know why? Now, today? Why, He'll, uh yeah. I think the order in which things happened is still a little bit unclear to me, but, um, So I was born overseas, and we moved from Germany toe president and then to Modesto. And we saw what my brother and sister were both born there in Modesto. And as far as I knew, our whole family was fine. Everything is fine. Never saw my parents fight. Never saw any conflict ever between them. And then my mom is taking us to my grandma's. And on the way there. She said she started telling me that they were getting a divorce and I was completely I think of his eight. I was completely like shocked. I had no idea. And I remember I was just, like, sobbing and she started crying. And then we pulled over, and then we talked about it. And when I came home, he wasn't there. He'd moved out already. And, um, he left my mom for this other woman. And the Nissen is of divorce was final. About two months later, he married her. And that marriage did not go well or last either, but, um, yes. So I was, I think, 10 when the divorce was final.

spk_3:   11:52
Have you explored how that has affected you? Maybe.

spk_2:   11:55
Oh, yeah. Definitely been through. I know as I I don't know if I don't think I should This part of my testimony, um, that day usually do. Sure, but, um, along that same time, um, from when my dad left until junior high, I was also, um, molested during that time. Bye. Ah, friend of a friend. Sort of. It was our girl scouts, their neighbor. They used to always invite the kids to come over and swim. And while we were there, he was molesting some of the girls. And so there was that that was in kind of in the mix of all of this stuff. And so when we ended up moving to Fresno, I was in the middle of eighth grade. I didn't know anybody was really had a really hard time connecting with people because it was like halfway through the year, and it was eighth grade, and it's free. It's awkward anyway. But by the time I started high school, I wanted always wanted to have a boyfriend. I don't I didn't know at the time that what I was missing was that relationship with my dad. I mean, I knew that I missed my dad and I didn't have a close relationship with him. But I didn't really understand until later, and what I was really looking for was first God. And second was like that father figure, You know, that relationship that was missing in my life and so that led me down a lot of destructive relationships and, um, drinking and, um, you having sexual relationships with with guys and looking for something that I wasn't getting at home. I wasn't getting in a relationship with the Lord as well. It definitely plays. Played a big part, I think, in our marriage too. Um, I think I still have the back of my mind. Even though we were both believers and really loved the Lord, there was still a part of me that assumed he would still leave or that he might leave. You're talking about Josh? Yeah. So I know it was pretty insecure and that, um until we got into a fight one day and he was gonna just go for a walk and just without even thinking, I just blurted out, Oh, yeah, Go ahead and leave, just like my dad. And even I was shocked by that. I said that, and I remember he was so mad. He turned around, looked at me. He slammed the door and he walked over. And he said, I am not your dad, and I am not going anywhere. And from that point on, I think my I think my security got I think it still took a little time. But I wasn't really worried about him leaving at all anymore. And so I think that lead to a deeper intimacy, because I wasn't holding anything back for fear that he would not be there. And so, yeah,

spk_3:   14:31
So what would you town, Um, somebody that had a dad leave? Or so they she may have, like a daddy wound. Um, or other people died listening. You know that. Have that encouragement? Would you give them?

spk_2:   14:48
I think first and foremost, the biggest need that I had was for my heavenly father was for the Lord. And I think once you can reconcile that relationship and really see who got is. And I think I struggled with my relationship with my dad and how he was here and the things that went on into who? God Waas. You know that God would withhold. Not that my dad did that intentionally, but because the distance made me feel withheld. And so one of the things I really feel like change me the most was understanding God's love for me. That he loved me unconditionally, that he was always with me, that I could always rely on him. I think I became more secure just as a woman and as a wife and mom and pastor's wife as well that I think you do have to walk through that pain, though I think a lot of people either dwell on it too much or don't work through it enough that there needs to be kind of a middle eyes, not excuse for bad behavior. But it also is something you have to walk through because it does affect the rest of your life. And it can badly damage for the relationships, even your relationships with your own Children if you don't walk through that pain and really see, um, what God wants to do with that I was interested in the the intimate ing encounters. Thank you. That was I mean, that's been something that we've been talking about. Where in our conflicts I'm more the escalator. Um

spk_3:   16:25
oh, yeah, we have the same

spk_0:   16:27
same conflict

spk_3:   16:28
styles from what you guys shared. Ah, where you will shut down and emotionally kind of compartmentalize or suppress. Um, and like she said, you guys went through that intimate encounters. Were there things that you discovered about? Maybe your childhood in that things that you?

spk_1:   16:47
Yeah. Um well, let me think Here with a multi layered. Uh, no, that's a tear question there. So I'm trying Thio. I'll start easy and then build from that. Um, you know, again, we're talking off off record. We were talking about personality tests and all that kind of stuff. So indifferent personality tests. You know that any Graham, I come out as a two, which is sort of like the helper, so wanting others to feel cared for, wanting others to feel supported. But sometimes a weakness of that personality type is you don't look inward as much. You just sort of like, you know, think about your own sort of emotions and needs, which could also be very, um, you know, it might sound better than it is because that personality type can also become like so I need everybody to affirm that I'm helping them. Otherwise, we're not good, right? So there's a dark side, just like with any personality type. There's a light and shadow side, so that might be part of it. On the your unique design often come out achiever per sister harmonizer, But achievers, the highest and that personality type wants to accomplish a lot can make listen their head. Um, here's what I want achieve or any given decision. Here's the good. Here's the negative. Um, but yet at the same time, because I'm a harmonizer, I do. If I make decisions that I perceived gonna hurt people relational Iate it does crush me, and people have seen that I don't talk about in my testimony. But, um, certainly my wife seen it, and it can, like, affect me pretty deeply, even, Ah, you know, put me in a depression or something like that. So there is an emotional side. I just tend to probably guard it a little more probably. Okay, I do not always consciously, though it's just sort of happening. Um, so there's that and I think with the intimate encounters, what I learned was how to communicate emotionally to understand the value that is especially to my wife to Chris. So just for example, and some of its you're just learning how to communicate. So there's almost a sense of like, this is Ah, this is drills, this practice. But what you do is as you as you start to live out a different way. Feelings catch up. I think so. You don't let the feelings drive you now that's another thing I'm really big on is like, don't go by your feelings. You know, anything in life you got achieve, you can't go on your emotions. Emotions will, you know, you passed through a filter and there's some again. It was wisdom to that. Like, I don't say the first thing comes in my mind. That's often gonna be a good thing. Um, I'm gonna filter it with prayer, and I'm gonna think about it if I wake up and I want to have time with God and I want to work out, um but I wake up, I don't feel like doing it. Don't listen to the feelings get up and do it right? So So there's a positive that. But then again, that can be negative. If you're not, get in touch with your feelings. So intimate encounters. One of things they taught us would start to communicate emotionally. So I got set up in this class. They were this small group said who would volunteer? I might have just got volunteer. Old don't remember what happened, but they're like, OK, Chris, say something to Josh that, you know, just expresses how you feel about him. So she gave me this very beautiful encouragement, and then the leader of the group said, Okay, Josh, how does that make you feel good, Man, it makes me feel really good and he's all good. That's all you can say. And you know, all the other husbands in the room are dying because they know they would have done the exact same thing, But they weren't the one on the spot. And I go okay, made me feel really good, very good. And and then he's just like Okay, so if you would owe a baseball game and have a hot dog that's really good and your wife just poured out her heart to you and that's really good Wow, that that doesn't sound like it's very equal. I don't like What do you

spk_0:   20:46
want me to say?

spk_1:   20:47
You know, I was getting pretty flustered again to being a man. I just wanted, like, let's get it done. Let's do it right So and he was. What I learned was, I should I should learn how to use a more expansive vocabulary that touches the heart. So she says something like that to me. I should say that that made me feel cared for that made me feel loved. That made me feel significant. Um, that made me feel valued. So if I had a hot dog, I'm not going to say that made me feel cared for my

spk_0:   21:16
actually. But you

spk_1:   21:17
know, hungry. But But truthfully, though it's not that made me feel significant and valued. You know, it's a very different experience. There's depth to it. Flip side of it is if I'm frustrated, you know, instead of saying like, what you're doing is making me mad. What you said to me made me feel insignificant. Made me feel unloved. Made me feel minimized, you know that. So there's two sides to it, and then when I apologize, um, that was huge, too. We would get into a little tiff and then, you know, I would say to Chris, I'm sorry. And she'd say, I hear you saying it doesn't feel like you're sorry. And I'm like, I've said it three times. I can say it in Spanish if you want. You know what it was it gonna take to, you know, realize I'm sorry. She's like it doesn't matter if you say I don't feel like it and I didn't understand that. But in intimate encounters, one of the things I learned I think this isn't re engages. Well, just, you know, you don't just say you're sorry. Or maybe you don't even say you're sorry. Because then you're almost, like, just you could make it feel like I'm sorry to the person you're apologizing to, Like I'm sorry for how you feel. Almost like you're the one who's got a problem. Not me. I'm sorry. You know that you're week or whatever. Um, so rather it should be okay. What did I do? Well, I was talking to you. You were distracted. You didn't pay attention. And it made me feel devalued. Made me feel insignificant. So I own that. When I when I did not listen to you as you were trying to talk to me, I made you feel insignificant. And then it was wrong. Will you forgive me? And so just those simple little practices of expanding vocabulary and ownership help touch the heart more. I think in our communication it helps us resolve conflict way better cause sometimes we'd have a conflict and it just felt like that lingering like weirdness for two or three days. But once we learned how to apologize properly, it would It would actually be dealt with in the moment. So that was That was a beautiful thing. Um, so there's that I think for me, you know, maybe to get back to the first part of the question you asked about. Ah, experience. Um, I

spk_2:   23:33
don't

spk_1:   23:33
know. My mom. I know my mom loved me. Um, she was not affectionate, really. She was not big on words of affirmation. I just knew she loved. I found out as I got older. Her love languages were like acts of service and gifts. So as I reflect upon my life, it was like, Wow, she always served. You know, any time I came over, it was food. It was What do you need? It was, man. I want to give you money. It was like gifts all the time. So that was how she expressed love. Her dad was, you know, very stoic as well. So So, uh, I think it younger, you know, lots of words. Lots of ah, lots of hugs. Kiss. I didn't get that from my mom. Separately shaped. A little bit of who I became, um, and there was a season I went through Rose, like does My mom loved me, probably like my early twenties. But as the years went on, I reflect a while. She really does, you know, because she's expressing her love language, and that's what she knows how to show love. And she got older. She began to express more verbally as well. So we had she passed away last summer, but we had some really beautiful connecting moments. Ah, you know, in the years before she passed away. So I'm very thankful for that. So I think I've gotten better at it. Um, sometimes, you know, it's still just I don't know, I don't necessarily go there first. Although I would like to be a little more emotionally open. I mean, I can share different stories and stuff to my tap into some of that. You also asked about ministries? Haven't talked about that, but

spk_3:   25:01
yeah, no, I mean, so it sounds like you had a, uh you started to get away with your words and a way to express yourself and talking about your mommy. Makes me think about my relationship with my mom and ah, I know that there's work needed there. And I can think of other close friends that have similar relationships with their mom where there's work needed, Um, some of them, depending on where they're at in life, you know, they may have a limited time to actually fix this relationship or get it to a place where they want. So for me and for those people, what would you tell them? This faras mending that relationship or how to navigate it?

spk_1:   25:45
Yeah, well, I would think, uh, the biblical vision, you know, God desires us to be reconciled to himself and to each other. You know, ministers of reconciliation. And certainly, you know, scriptures talk about as far as it depends on you Try to live at peace with all people and honor your father and mother. Of course, other scriptures talk about how Christ might divide the family. And you know, we have to obey God rather than men. So you have to balance that. But I think the big vision would be coming before the Lord and saying, Lord, on my heart, my goal, I think, to honor you and whether it's my mom or whoever it would be a fully reconciled relationship. That would be the end goal. Um, that doesn't mean you're gonna go from point A to Z in a month. And if you only have a year, you may not get there, but you can lease. Have that is the goal. So I would say you break it down into sort of bite size pieces or step like what's the next step like instead of worried about? Well, he's gonna take 25 steps to get there, so I don't even want to try. It's like Now just take step one, you know, And then it's step. Step one goes and takes Step two. So probably step one would be prayer, getting others to pray, bringing God into it, asking him to do what we cannot accomplish on our own and just having a piece that I have brought this before the Lord consistently. So if some a few other key people now this is the vision full reconciliation. Secondly, might be to say, Well, why don't we start with myself? I'll just, you know, draw the circle of myself and what it all the things I've done to offend or hurt potentially my mom or whoever make that list. Go make amends just for yourself. Hey, Mom. Uh, here's a couple things I've done there to hurt you, you know? Would you please forgive me for this? And then third might be to think of all the positive things you can think about your mom and begin to tell her those things. Um And then I would see where things were at after step three. Then evaluate. God may do something awesome. Like she would listen to that. Well, can I share with you? Some ways I've hurt you and, you know, it may just happen. It may not. Then it Then it would be probably. Okay. Begin to pray about how you might approach that with her. I would say that would still be the goal, but it's kind of case by case. I couldn't just say Well, now step for is going. Tell her how she's hurt you. If she doesn't fess up on her own, I don't know if that be the fourth step or not, but I would I would think what you can control is you can You can pray and ask others to pray. You can make amends for whatever you've done, which could be very difficult. If somebody's hurt you and you're going and telling them how you've heard them and you want them and you know, they maybe they've hurt you worse than you've hurt them. And they don't want to say anything that's incredibly difficult. But let's just look at our best model. Jesus. He went to the cross and took the sins of everybody, even the people that reject him. So all right, Lord, give me your power to to be like you. And, you know, we're going to do this and then third to, uh, find the positives. And it may not be a lot, you know, Maybe it's Mom. Thank you for ah, given birth to

spk_0:   28:55
me. You know, I

spk_1:   28:56
wouldn't be here if it wasn't for you, but let's start with that, and we'll go from there. But ah,

spk_2:   29:01
I think one thing is to not go in with expectations of what the other person, how they're gonna react because they may just be cold as ice. But when you walk out of there, you want to feel like you gave it your all, regardless of how they respond, you know he? You know, we talked about your friend If he doesn't do those things than there is that regret forever. But if he just goes and does his part and says what he feels he needs to say, whether it's reciprocated or not isn't the point. But he can go walk away with, like, a clear conscience. And, you know, I think that's super important. Especially if that person then passes. You feel like, Well, it didn't get result the way I wanted, but I know that I did my part. I know that I had that conversation. It just wasn't given back to

spk_3:   29:49
me. So I think I'm I'm curious again for myself and for others. With that with your mom. How do you feel? You navigated that or what Did that look like? Better question. What did that look like? What experiences did you go through and And what would you tell people?

spk_1:   30:08
Yeah, I was actually pretty similar toe. I mean, I never felt unreconciled to my mom. I think I came to a piece as I grew older of man. She I can't believe how much she loves me because of how much she served me in terms of acts of service and gifts. So would it have been good for me if she had been very like, you know, like those moms always hugging their boys and kissing them and that have been great, You know, a lot of words. Affirmation. That would've been awesome. Um, but she did love me in the ways that she expressed it. So I can't, you know, necessarily make her be someone she wasn't at the same time, You know that that would've been awesome. Um, so I think for me, I just kind of in some ways came to that acceptance. Um, so I never really brought that up to her, honestly. But I did. Ah, you know, I did go to her and tell her some of the things that I wish I had had done better as a son, you know, especially those in my rebellious years. I did. Ah. Certainly give her a lot of words affirmation for how she did love me. Um, And then as the years as the years went on, I just took the initiative myself. So when I would leave the house, I would just be the one that gave her a hug, you know? And then she would hug back, and especially when we knew she was going to die. I mean, it's kind of sad that it took that long, but at least it happened. You know, there was a lot of I love you's a lot of, ah, you know, even physical affection in a sense and more openness. And she she did say a few things that she wished she had done different. I just allowed it more to be. What is the spirit? Prompt her? I didn't bring up. Hey, Mom. You know, I wish you'd, uh, done this or that more when I was like a kid. You know, I just I didn't do that, but I don't for that part of it, I don't feel any sense of, like regret, you know, because it wasn't like there was an abuse. There wasn't that kind of thing. So that's a whole different ballgame when you're getting stuff like that. So

spk_3:   32:12
Okay, so we initially reached out because we heard your testimony and we heard that there was an element of abortion that that was something that was in your past. That's a part of our past a cz. Well Ah, definitely. Well, for Dre and I, if that happened to age, So 17. Yeah, and I mean, how that came about Waas. Well, I wasn't leading, uh, by any means in a godly way. And, uh, we had had sex before we were married. She got pregnant, and, um, we were scared and nah urged to do that. We definitely weren't encouraged to not do it. And that would mainly be because we didn't tell anybody. The only people that knew about it were Dre and I in one of our parents. Um, but yes, we did do that and kind of stuffed it away for a decade. Almost. Ah, and then now that resurface and came out. And we've shared that.

spk_2:   33:23
We haven't really talked about it until maybe two years

spk_0:   33:27
ago. Was

spk_2:   33:28
it? One year ago?

spk_3:   33:29
It was ah, in our life maps at reengage and Ah. And since then

spk_2:   33:35
and then we were encouraged. Thio, keep it in our testimony. Well, scared about that, I'm like, Okay, just saying Like, just saying abortion is

spk_1:   33:48
It's a

spk_3:   33:48
dirty word. Rain. It's a dirty word. It's a hot button topic, and it's something that we, in our mind no and heart believe is wrong, Um, and would encourage anybody to not go that route, But and I and I would hope that there's something that people could glean from from your story and from our story. Uh, I just don't know what. So what was your experience like And what are your thoughts on that?

spk_2:   34:18
Yeah, Um I remember, like, early in high school, people would talk about abortion, and I thought I would never I would never do that. You know, I wasn't sleeping with anyone at the time, so it was an easy thing to say to, but, um, So shortly after high school, I started dating, Um, a guy that we've been friends for a while and, um, he was getting ready to go into the military. And, um before he left, we had been sleeping together and before he left, you know, we talked about it and he said if I found out I was pregnant, that somebody wanted me to do was to have an abortion. I didn't think I would be solved, like Okay, whatever. But then, um, three months don't. 2.5 months later, I found out I was pregnant, and I was actually bleeding a lot. So I went into the doctor and they said that I might be miscarrying, but to me, all I heard was I'm pregnant and I need to not be, you know, but, um, I didn't allow myself to really think about it a whole lot. My mom knew I didn't really tell anybody else. Don't think of the time, but, um, so she made me an appointment, and I went two planned parenthood. Remember the order of everything. Um, I don't Have you ever been in There? Are That's where you went. But it's very dark in the like when you walk in not just spiritually, but physically. The lights are low. It's I have concerts for discretion. And but I just remember the minute I walked in the door and I wasn't following the lorry didn't know Lord it all, but I felt this immediate desire to run out of the building. Um, but one thing I didn't 11 time my dad gave me like advice was make sure I had my exams every year And don't get pregnant. Those things said and so I found out I'm pregnant. The last thing I'm gonna do is let my dad know, you know? And so So I walked into the building and I had it. My friend was with me. She took me and, um, they call you back. You probably know all this, too, but they call you back and there's like, a bench and have you sit down and then they have you Wait until it's your turn to basically go pee in a cup so they can confirm that you're still pregnant. And as we're sitting there, everything in me kept saying, Run, you need to get out of her, you need to run. But I kept thinking, but I can't go anywhere because I don't have anything else to do. Like I was having this internal battle going on. I remember. I must have looked as afraid or uncomfortable as I felt, because there was a girl sitting next to me to my left, who asked me if I was okay. And I think I mumbled no or something. And she said, Um oh, don't worry. It's not that big of a deal. This is my 4th 1 and I literally felt like I was gonna be sick. I just again the whole run run thing kept going to remind him. I didn't know whether I was more afraid to stay or leave at that point. And so I stayed and they called you back to this room. That's very kind of empty and cold and, like, stainless still and just very sterile and no emotion or anything. And I remember the guy talking to me about the anesthesia that you would fall asleep and you taste this weird thing, your throat. And I remember thinking, I can't run anymore. I can't I can't run now. And then I fell asleep and, uh, again not knowing the Lord all of the time. The second I woke up, I felt like someone was sitting on my chest. I felt this enormous emotional, um, pain. And I remember thinking, What have I done? And I'm I was in physical pain, but I was more emotional pain at that point. My friend drove me home, and I remember I didn't talk the whole time, just held this stuff like running through my mind, and I got home and she kind of because I was in pain. You know, she helped me get into bed and and then she left. And I just crime muscle, just sleep. And then at that point afterwards, I just stuffed it. I didn't want to deal with it. I don't want to think about it. And so I just kept drinking and hanging with my friends and doing everything to just kind of ignore it. I remember telling

spk_0:   38:58
kind of

spk_2:   38:58
telling a friend about it like it was no big deal, but I remember hearing in back of my mind it is a big deal. But I couldn't say that because that means that meant I had to tap into that emotional side of it. And I wasn't rolling to do that. And then about two years have gone by and a friend invited me to church and I knew I needed to go. Like I said, she asked me. I was like, Yeah, I mean, I need to do that And I had been feeling that for a while, and so I started going to church with her, and immediately all that stuff started coming at me. Everything you know, from drinking toe being molested, Thio abortion toe just all of it, sort of like consumed me all at once. And I told my friend about it, and that was the first step of beginning toe to hell. I didn't know it at the time, but just being able to say it out loud and confess it was super healing. And, um, as I started talking about it more and more, um, it was kind of, Ah, I didn't really, ever feel judged, but it it wasn't something that was real people want to talk about. It wasn't an open thing either. So it was kind of like I kind of used discretion on when I would share. And where is now? I don't I just kind of talk about it, and people don't want to hear They don't have to listen, you know? But, um, my sister bought a friend to me that was contemplating an abortion, and I was able to talk her out of it, which was I just remember Time, Lord, And that's the only thing Good that comes out of it then. That's enough. Because I've been able gods used me to save one life. Um, but I went to a counselor. Um, it was actually our previous senior pastor's wife. She was also, um, clinical psychologist, and she walked me through in the beginning was I thought was a very strange way of dealing with it ended up being the most powerful thing I've probably ever done. But she, um, you know, ask me all the normal questions we kind of talked to, and I was pretty open about being molested and and abortion. I was still kind of because I felt like I had no control over being molested. But the abortion was my choice, and I did that. And so that was a lot harder for me to accept. But she had me, um, hold the doll with my eyes closed, and then ask the Lord to give me a name of the child and then to ask the child for forgiveness. And it was incredible. She sat and cried with me. We both cried the whole thing. It was really powerful toe to be ableto forgive myself until let go of that. It still comes up. I still have pain over it, a CZ you can see teary eyed, but I think I always will be a part of my life because it is part of my story. And it is what I think. The final straw was for me to come to the Lord was that and so, um, then it just became, You know, when I started dating Josh telling him and he's always encouraged me to be really open about it, and I ended up eventually telling my dad who said I have no place to judge you because I've made all these mistakes. So it was a really bonding moment for the two of us as well. And, um, yeah, I don't know if you've any questions I hear saying how the they told you to may indulge it a bit like a baby doll. And to name it, I've just I've never thought to do that. An esper I think there's something to letting got into that place of Yeah, you've asked for forgiveness to allow him to tell you about your child things that you obviously couldn't know or didn't know for me. Um, it was a boy, I believe. No, I obviously had no idea then and his name was Michael, and I was able to really Look, I think we were dating at the time to remember or was after. Yeah, we're coming and telling him about it, and then I don't know. I don't I must not have shared that part in that. Some days when I just share my abortion story, it cut more of that comes out in

spk_1:   43:19
your region when you did not re engage,

spk_2:   43:22
right? I think doing that. I'm Susan. This thing I ever would have thought about doing or or honestly wanted to dio until she said that. And it was I think that was the first time I really felt like I could I could really be forgiven by God and that not only God would forgive me, but my child would forgive me and be waiting for me eventually to tell him myself also. Right. You know, I

spk_1:   43:54
was thinking maybe you should even pray later at some point. I don't know. I think this is something you should do. That What you describe that she Yeah. Chris went through, so Yeah, that's to be the healing for you. Oh, my goodness. I mean, I'm curious. So what

spk_3:   44:08
would you tell? Are both of you What would you tell somebody that is contemplating that, you know, they potentially are listening to this right now. What would you tell them?

spk_2:   44:25
Well, I think and maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like what makes my story a little more unless he valid. But, um, I know a lot of people say, Well, you are a Christian. That's why you you're pre conditioned to feel bad about what you did, whereas, you know, it's not that big of a deal kind of thing. But I didn't know the Lord, and I felt that oppression. And I felt that immediately after I didn't think about God, I thought about what I'd done. And I think there's this movement toe, you know, it's okay. It's just sells. It's not important. It's your decision. All that the thing is, is when you choose to have sex with someone that is out of your hands now, you created a life with you meant to or not. It's still alive. And I think, um, I didn't let myself really truly believe that at the time, because it was convenient for me to not do that. And I think if someone had said, oh, well, we need to do, um, like an ultrasound First, I think Had I done that, I wouldn't have been able to do it. And I think I would say to someone not to make a rush decision because that's what I did. I didn't allow myself to even think about it or feel until it was too late. And I think if I had taken that time and prayed, well, I didn't know the Lord. So even if I just taken the time and even talk to someone else and maybe asked other people, I would have thought it through a little bit better. And so I think if you're listening and you're alone and nobody knows what you're going through, you need to talk to someone you need. Thio, allow someone else into your story and, you know, speak to you. Speaking to you about it. I think that's what stopped my sister's friend. I think, um, I don't know if I necessarily known anyone who was pregnant during one of my stories and then changed their mind. I know the aftereffects. I usually talk to people who have already made the decision and realized how bad it was. So I think there is that I think hearing? Um, well, people, that was on the news. All you hear about people who've had him and they they're happy. They did. And you know, and I think there's far more people that have done that don't feel that way. Bye also, honestly think. And this is where I may get myself into trouble. But if those people really allow themselves to think about it, do they really believe that, or are they just going? Are they also stuffing and not dealing with it? Because I'm hard pressed to think that you can actually walk away from that unscathed on something like I don't think you can. I don't think it's possible. I think they were like I started out where I just buried it and didn't deal with it. And so it was okay until it wasn't anymore and it came to the surface, and eventually it will come to the surface one way or another. So I think you need to really think through this decision and not allow ah guy to pressure you into making a decision or your parents or your friends are and order the media or anybody. But you need to sit down and think about it for yourself and realize there are long term repercussions. One. Guess you would have a more difficult time having a child, but there are resource is and things that can help you and people who can come alongside you. But I think it's far more detrimental to your own personal health in your life to make that decision to abort

spk_3:   47:58
your child. I think thinking about it, I would totally agrees. You don't don't let the guy pressure you and open that circle up because of something we didn't do. I I was. I was one that was really pressuring her and Ah, and we did not allow anybody. We kept it a secret. And then, like Josh said, don't make a decision emotionally because that was a total emotional decision out of fear. Yeah,

spk_2:   48:24
like he said, we didn't open it up to other people, although, like during that time I had something in me telling me and I wasn't following Christ, it was told toe, go tell his mom and I and I know

spk_3:   48:39
about the 2nd 1 Naomi, no, wait

spk_2:   48:43
the first a night because we were three months dating and already got pregnant and I had felt the need like I need to tell his mom. I need to tell her and I kept telling him like, um, why can't we just tell your mom? And I felt like she would have completely supported us and then would speak into us and then not go through with it.

spk_3:   49:15
I think that's a good place to end it. And we just want to say Thank you

spk_1:   49:18
bowls for coming and sharing your stories and encouraging other people on us. Uh, and we want to

spk_0:   49:24
thank the listeners again for listening and we'll see you guys next time, all right, Thank you for having us. For additional information about distinct ministries, go two distinct ministries dot org's. You can also follow the distinct podcast on Facebook and Instagram and email your questions and comments toe Andrea at distinct ministries dot org's.

spk_1:   49:56
And I said, So what happens if if you eat a doughnut in front of her, is she gonna like, you know, go to the nearest donut shop? Just gorge yourself on a whole dozen. What's the big deal