Tough Love - Dave and Erin Obwald

Listen in as we discuss root heart issues, confession, forgiveness, and what recovery looks like with Dave and Erin Obwald! Get an inside look at the Obwalds lives and hear God's story of redemption in their lives. 

• how to recover from infidelity
• healing from infidelity
• How to make a marriage work
• how to save a marriage
• top christian podcasts

Transcript

spk_2:   0:00
Thank you for listening to

spk_1:   0:02
the distinct podcast recorded live from Fresno, California This is the distinct podcast today. Joining Nick and Andrea are Dave and Aaron. Ah, blow. Our special guests are parents to five Children, Dave, sometimes referred to as the Velvet Hammer. Interesting choice of words I think enjoys his work is a career pastor at the well church and heads up regeneration. Aaron is a loyalist in heart, incredibly organized type, A like organized and very out going to the point of juggling dozens of projects at hitting one time and doing it well. Like Dave Aaron is passionate about forgiveness and getting to the root heart issues that leads to healing regeneration. Today's special guests should inspire our listeners to look at their own lives and ask this question. Do I really trust God with every area of my life? Even where I'm broken, even secretly broken today is a testimony of how you get there. Let's welcome the ob walls.

spk_3:   1:12
All right. Hello. Hello and welcome,

spk_2:   1:15
guys. Good to be here.

spk_3:   1:17
Good morning. I'm glad that you guys were able to make it here. Where? Super excited. Well, I mean hi. What can you guys tell us a little bit about yourself. Who is Aaron and Dave? A bald first thing.

spk_2:   1:34
I think it's a start. I mean, this is Aaron's first time on a podcast. This kind of a big deal for her. So this is a big deal for you to invite us into the podcast space together. So we're

spk_4:   1:44
both Why? Is it a big deal for me? I don't know. Aaron

spk_2:   1:46
likes podcasts. I like broadcast. So and so. Yeah. So it's cool. So thank you for yes. On the show.

spk_0:   1:52
We're honored to have you guys, uh, legendary at the church we go to and then just in the community, we've done some stocking. So we've seen like

spk_2:   2:00
that. How far

spk_0:   2:00
you guys actually reach?

spk_3:   2:01
Have you guys ever googled your name? No. I googled it the other day, and I was like, a whole bunch of stuff came up like, um,

spk_2:   2:09
the awkward started is feared photo of a nasty mix. A few of them,

spk_4:   2:17
which we did raise $14,000 with that beard.

spk_0:   2:20
So Dave has a nickname. The Velvet hammer

spk_2:   2:25
have been called that? Yes. Can you give us some

spk_0:   2:28
insight with listeners that may not know. What is that about?

spk_2:   2:32
Well, I don't know exactly when that was coined first, but I think I think it comes from I think even some of my recovery stuff is I've always been a nice guy, right? And so, I, um I'm not gonna come across as someone who's harsh or, um, combative or whatever that may be. But I think he's got was healing me in my own journey. Part of what that morphed into and the way God wired me is to be gentle, grace filled kind, all those kind of things. But I think also to have a passion to encourage people towards what is God's heart for them. And so, you know, they would start joking with me. They're like, Man, I think they have said something really hard to me just now. But it felt so gentle and kind like, how could I like, you know, And so, um, so they would often bring me into meetings right when you say, have something hard to somebody like and you like, Can you say instead of me? Because they're actually gonna hear it if you say it, you know? And so I don't know. You know, again, I didn't give myself the nickname, but I think I think my hope is with my life that I'm a person that walks in grace and truth. Now, whether that happens all the time or not, I don't know. But, um but I think I've been told that when I sit with people, sometimes, you know, they're able to feel heard and they're able to feel like I didn't just deliver a truth to them, But it was the truth within the context of their lives. And I hope I think that's what Jesus tried to do with people. Is that even when you know, things had to be said, you know, because we were ruining our lives or we were walking in directions that were gonna harm ourselves or harm other people. Jesus always met people where they're at. And so I guess that's my hope. I don't know what I do it well or not. I think that's where the velvet hammer maybe comes in. But, um but yeah, somebody told me that they are. I think you just, like, really, like, filleted me open. But it didn't feel bad. I don't know. It was okay.

spk_0:   4:31
That's a pretty cool gift.

spk_4:   4:33
What I think is such a good it speaks to his passions and his in his position right now, I think, you know, with region and being ableto speak truth. But with grace, you know, I have not always He's a good example of that. I'm, like,

spk_2:   4:52
eyes growing over time. Hammer down, got the time. So any

spk_0:   5:00
grams I'm in any graham eight Dre is a two. Because you guys, what are your any grams?

spk_2:   5:07
Yeah. So yeah, we've been I know we've been exploring that for last

spk_4:   5:11
four years. Three or four years,

spk_2:   5:14
four years. And, um, I think I've been told them in nine. I think I'm a nine from all my research, but two and nine somewhere in between. The two of those is, I think, where I land, which has been really helpful for me, you know, I think nine. Yeah, that's what's so nine is the, You know, it's been called the Peacemaker. Um, is kind of a tagline. Thio. And so think of the nine as I can see from a lot of different perspectives. So any time I'm gonna I'm so my like my master's degrees in conflict in peacemaking. And a lot of what I do with the church's walking with people through really, really hard things And even in recovery stuff like when I sit with somebody, I can always get to a place where I could go. Oh, yeah, me too. Like, I've never been in a conversation where I can't sit with somebody and go, Yeah, I understand that feels like. And I think the gift of a nine is to be able to see from all other perspectives the hard part with the night, as you can see from your own perspective. And so you know the tagline respect. You don't know what your perspective is and so I can sit with you and I go, Yeah, I'll emerge with you. I'll merge with you. I know what you know. What do you want this conversation to look like? I'll make this conversation look like what you want it to look like but often falling asleep to my own wants and desires in my own life. And so somebody like a what do you want? I don't know. What do you want? You know? And so I think even in our own marriage. That's been a journey of me not just losing myself in. Because Aaron's on the anagram type. She's a more aggressive type, you know. And so she's going to know exactly what she wants. And she's gonna know exactly where we should go and what we should do. And I think a lot of even our journey and marriage is me learning. No, I have to show up a CE. Well, I can't just show up co dependent Lee in this relationship and just kind of merged with her desires. And so it's been Yeah, it's been good. That

spk_0:   6:53
makes sense. Yeah, And what are you?

spk_4:   6:57
So I have gone back and forth between three numbers that are all in a row. 678 I think most recently I'm landing on that I'm a seven. I've been with an eight wing like, pretty strong eight wing. Um, so and I definitely have some six. But from what I've read and research sometimes counter phobic sixes can be mistaken as eights. You know, that could be one that, like, people are, you know, you're not sure, so I don't know. I think I think I'm a seven with an eight wing Aaron.

spk_3:   7:31
Huh? You wanna Well, that was a

spk_4:   7:33
type other people. No, I don't want you to meet. Yes, you did

spk_2:   7:37
something. Um, thing that Aaron is She's never met something that's not fun to like. It's like a I want to learn Spanish. And I want to, like, homeschooled kids. And I want a

spk_4:   7:47
list of 11 things right now. Probably what I would like to do a full time simultaneously and claiming Long's Hanish, I really need to learn Spanish like yesterday. Why? Because it's helpful for my job. But there's also the value of someone being understood in their own language. Like I started learning sign language when I was 11 or something on my own, like and and all these years and then home school. And I'm like a war learnings island because I get to decide, you know? And so, yes, I work with a lot of Spanish only speaking people with my job right now, I want to talk to them. I don't want to use a translator like I I want to do that. I want to show them they have value through, you know? So I need to know it like yesterday. Another damn like

spk_3:   8:30
I need to learn Spanish. I've never your little bit how you looked. Manage, like doing 10 things right now. Already,

spk_2:   8:36
most of Aaron's friends look at her and go, Oh, my gosh, like watching your life makes me feel tired. So So

spk_0:   8:44
what is this? What's this? I think seven is adventure. What's the Six

spk_4:   8:49
Six Loyalists? The Loyalist, which I am very like That's a high value for me. Um, but they

spk_2:   8:58
tend to be operate sometimes unlike the negative side, cause each of them has, like, a deadly sin, right? Attached him. So

spk_4:   9:03
why don't we start with positive? That's a positive sign of a six

spk_2:   9:07
month. I don't tend to see things from the way there's great things about my wife and all of those potential members. So

spk_4:   9:17
yeah, so, yeah, I like to do a lot of things and they're all fun. And then then I'm like,

spk_3:   9:23
and I'm

spk_4:   9:23
tired of that move on. That's seven. That's a lot of seven.

spk_2:   9:26
So we do to reengage together the marriage recovery stuff. Um, maybe three years ago, three about when they were doing the beta test of like figure it out. Did we want to? This is a church, and I remember a conversation was like two weeks into it and were in the car. I think

spk_4:   9:42
we had some with reengage You're supposed to meet weekly with your big group and then do the curriculum and meet with your spouse before the next bigger time. Yeah, and the first I think there's the first week of it for sure. We just our schedules couldn't line up to do that. And so before our time with our group, So we had to do it on facetime. Yeah, not ideal. So you're talking about these hard things of marriage and so I'm watching. Don't already communicate very well face time.

spk_2:   10:10
Yeah, And so I'm watching as I'm and I love deep conversations. I'm like, This is awesome. Work's going to talk about life together. We're actually gonna get into some of the things we need to talk about. And so we're you know, we're processing through some of this stuff and I'm watching her in the car over face time as we're talking. And she's like moving away from, like, slumping down like being

spk_4:   10:30
yeah, monetarily sinking almost like you're trying until

spk_2:   10:35
I could move away from where he's sitting next to each other room fixed time?

spk_4:   10:38
No, not like trying to move away, but just like literal wait. Like the heaviness of talking about some of that stuff for me, it was just so hard. Yeah, and it felt like I was, like, slipping down into the floorboards. I mean, it was like strain.

spk_2:   10:53
That was a big takeaway from

spk_4:   10:54
and becoming very quiet and very like this does not feel safe like we're, you know, but because we were not in the same place, it was obvious. Yeah, it's very strange. Yeah,

spk_3:   11:05
I don't want to go down this, like, route whole of a bunch of other things. But maybe specifically, like, what was like, one event that happened in your guy's life, that was like, um, like,

spk_4:   11:17
just a really hard trial freebase in our marriage. That's

spk_2:   11:23
a good question, is a good question. I mean,

spk_4:   11:26
Annie, if Downs, his dad would really like that question because he really likes good questions, and she always mentions that that was a good one and her dad to be happy.

spk_2:   11:34
I'm just transparent right down. It spanned

spk_0:   11:40
so many things like it's a shortcut through your testimony to what's currently going on right now.

spk_2:   11:45
Yeah, well, I think for me, I mean so as a night talk anagram. Right? So as a nine on the anagram, when things were hard, like, I would rather avoid them, you know, conflict and all this guy thinks so. I had grown up, you know? So, yeah, So I had grown up. It placed my faith in Jesus when I was in junior high and had grown men always been seen as, like, the perfect Christian kid. And on the outside, I Well, I mean, I I looked a good part, you know? I was a leader in the groups that I was a part of high school groups. All those kind of things. Leader on sports teams, you know, straight. A student. Like I looked the part, and but I was

spk_4:   12:20
easy youth group kid, you know? Yeah. I've never caused problems

spk_2:   12:23
with anybody. Yeah, and I love Jesus. I genuinely did. And that was around the same time to that. You know, I never dealt with conflicts in my life. I learned to avoid things in my family. Um, I learned to embody You bottle things up rather than have conversations about hard things. And so when pornography got introduced in my life by someone I trusted, um, around that same age of 13. 14 that became this place I went learned to go to for any and every emotion in my life. And it became this false refuge and a place where I felt love accepted, um, valued without any work and without having to show up. And so it's safer to show up and be cared for in this false place in this in this fantasy world, in my head or in an image, Um, and so, you know, carry that into, you know, not being not feeling like I could talk about the shame entered in that same time, right? So that was where, like, I knew, that that wasn't congruent with what I believe. And so either I'm the only one which I thought it wa ce and or like, something's fundamentally wrong with me. So I just learned how to hide. And so I carry that into we started dating in middle of high school. So junior year of high school, she's the first person I ever asked out on a date we dated for 4.5 years. We never had an argument. Not because we didn't disagree on things. We should know how I didn't know how to do conflict. Aaron didn't know how to do conflict.

spk_4:   13:58
So we not that we didn't have an argument. We were silent. Argue hours. We could sit silently, Disgruntled Lee,

spk_2:   14:07
as we were all having arguments head together. You know,

spk_4:   14:09
Right. Like we great. It's not that we didn't ever disagree. She or ever have a conflict. We didn't know how to resolve conflict. Verbalize what? We would sit silently. Yeah, upset Or, you know, neither one of us are like an outburst person or a yeller or ah, that kind of a thing. So we were good at not communicating because we didn't know how

spk_2:   14:32
so I had a ton of Brokenness around the sexual area, things we didn't know how to do conflict and I had avoided when things got hard in every other area. I went through five majors in college because when things got hard or if I was gonna get a C, I'm out because I don't know how to get a C like I do. I I need to be perfect. And And then we got into marriage, and I'd carry this Brokenness into marriage and these patterns of conflict and sexuality stuff, you know, like all that in. And I was not healthy with the Lord in all these areas and didn't know how to let him in a lot of these areas. And then it was the first time where it was like, Oh, gosh, the stakes are really high Now, am I gonna run away again? And so the 1st 2 years of our marriage were hell like there was good times. Some that

spk_4:   15:16
have been

spk_2:   15:17
there must have been

spk_3:   15:18
hard to remember them.

spk_2:   15:19
Um, but it was really, really hard. But But I remember specifically sitting on a soccer field at Frozen Pacific, where I worked for a while and we went to school

spk_4:   15:29
with students all the time. Yeah, we got married during. That's right. That's right. And I don't recommend it

spk_2:   15:35
and reading. And in Matthew and Jesus talks about divorce. And he says, You know the Lord, your God, like I hate divorce. And I don't hate divorce people. I hate what divorce does, and I hate that. It's ah separation. And it's And I remember, in some ways kind of look at, you know, like imagining myself, Doc energies and going easy for you to say. You don't know how hard it feels right now. You don't know what this is like. And I remember him kind of nudging me in that kind of that still small voice that I haven't heard, you know, a ton throughout my life. But it was one of those really loud moments where it was like, Dave, will you actually trust me with something? Okay, House. I trust you with something. It's like when I placed my faith in you. He's like, you haven't trusted me with anything in your life. You've You've done the things that are easy. You know how to be a cultural Christian like you know how to fit into a youth group. And but I'm asking you to trust me with something you can't see like you can't see this resolving yet, will you? Will you give it to me with, like, literally the ounce of faith that you think you have right now and see what I do. And, um That was kind of a big turning point in my life. Was that was the first, I think, honestly, that was the first moment where I trusted God for today, not just for eternity. And I think Aaron, around that same season, God was doing some stuff in her as well. But that was really, you know, a huge crisis for us. Tough on your marriage. Yeah, we've had a few

spk_4:   16:58
say that. Not that last.

spk_2:   17:00
No, that wasn't the last one. But that was the big one, you know, And that started, I would say a trajectory. I wish that was like, Oh, and things immediately got better. Like, I immediately came to light with all these things in my life. And, um, I think that was the start of, like, our my arrow pointing towards Jesus, but that started a a 10

spk_0:   17:22
year journey. So is that when you came out to her with everything or

spk_2:   17:28
I'm trying to remember? I don't think so. I think I think I still early on a marriage, blamed her for a lot of the things that were happening. And I was like, Yeah, I'd like to fix you in all these different ways. I'd like to fix you with your looks and it felt like to fix what you you know, I I thought that if she just loved being in these ways, that I had program end myself broken ley to feel love through pornography through the way I interpreted love than if she just did those things. Then we'd be fine, like we'd be good. I would experience the love that I thought I deserved and needed in marriage. And then I thought she would be happy to, because that's what we were supposed to be at such a broken view of,

spk_4:   18:05
Well, the expectation

spk_2:   18:06
and a lot of expectations. And all this guy thinks so. We lived a lot of years of that, unfortunately, and I have lived and still hid in the area of pornography, you know, and not just pornography. Just a broken view of sexuality in our marriage as a whole. Um, And then over time I got there was, like, 545 times of just being caught with, you know, whether that would be on the computer of looking for finding a history on the computer of pornography and or other ways of being caught kind of over the next seven years. And, um, or 10 years and, um s Oh, we've been married

spk_4:   18:45
13 for 14 years till there was a a riel turn around or a really? Like I'm tired of trying to fix this on my own because we have done a bunch of different things. We've gotten counseling this and this other thing in this conference in this, you know, group and whatever, but it just, you know, it just sucks. You back sucks. You know, if you don't get that heart issue, then you just continue to follow through to the same hole.

spk_2:   19:13
Why would I learned to be honest for moments of my life and moments in our marriage? And it was like, once things would go back to status quo. And once I realized Oh, gosh, I did it again. And the stakes are really high, and shame would set back in. Yeah, I'd hide at a hid so well and live so well for self protection for so long. I didn't know howto live in light for the long haul. So as you know, 78 years ago, when God really got my attention through a number of things and it wasn't just being caught. It was this sense of, like, I'm not well, and God kind of exposed that through. I was working at the well, right sermons to share on a Sunday and looking at pornography at the same time was writing a sermon and and, you know, doing premarital counseling with couples. And here in the gal talk about, you know, my dad had an ongoing addiction to pornography, and I think, you know, because of that, I'm have a skewed view of sexuality. My marriage because of his 20 on thunk thinking and my daughters or six and four right now that's gonna be their story. And so I feel like God gave me a few smelling salts moments where, you know, kind of like the prodigal son. It says that the progress ran away and you squandered everything. And then he's eaten pig slop. And it says that in that moment he came to himself. I feel like there was a couple came to myself moments where God said, Hey, you're gonna either try to save your life in your own way, you're gonna lose it, or you're gonna lose your life for my sake, and you're gonna actually find it. And I tried to hold on tightly to my, you know, probably some image stuff and like my job And, you know, even our marriage of just wanting to, like, protect, like, the semblance of, like, intimacy we had. And so I feel like God was just going. Will you trust me again? You know, and will you believe that wholeness in me is the gift? Intimacy with me is the gift. If you're ever gonna have wholeness is a pasture. We need to We need to deal here. If you're ever gonna have wholeness in your marriage. Like we really need to deal with your heart, Dave, your heart is not well. And so that was really a shift of, like, going back to her and going, Hey, I'm not like doing this right now, but it's not done like, you know, we're not I'm not okay going to people, you know, at the church. You know, a selected group of people that I worked with and going Hey, this thing I said was in my past, it's not done. I need help. And well, you you know will you walk with me? And that really started a different trajectory of recovery for me that I think invited Aaron into some different things as well, because I had broken so much trust over the years. And, you know, I think I realized as I kept walking out recovery and we kept having more, more honest conversations was that the trust was the big deal. Like, you know, Aaron over time started, Understand? OK, I get the pornography is just medicine for ahh Harding soul for you, like it's not about the image is or is not about sex and what you're seeing. But she's like, I feel so cheap and when you lie to me and when there's a sense of like if we're gonna be, you know, intimate together and it feels like there's anything hidden in our lives, she like we can't live and false it anymore. And so these were these moments of start, like starting to, like, actually build back trust that took time. But that was part of the part of the journey

spk_0:   22:29
that's gonna wear. I think we're at is kind of in the aftermath of July was kind of where everything Ah, not re exploded. The wheels came off again right around there. Um, And now going through that healing process and it's exactly like what you just said it can totally identify with. That is, uh, my heart needs work. Still, it's like, Yeah, we're not there. My heart still there. And that's still a struggle. And so we're trying to learn how to. And you could speak into this because that actually question I was going to say, How could you encourage people? But now

spk_1:   23:12
I'm

spk_0:   23:12
just curious. How could you encourage me? Um, trust needs to be rebuilt. Do you rebuild trust or do you earn trust? And how does that trust get rebuilt?

spk_2:   23:22
I think it's better question for Aaron, actually, you know, I mean, I could I could take a stab at it, but I mean, Aaron's the one. I think in our marriage were talking on the way over here today and and talking about some things that have even just recently felt so much different for us and growth for us. But I think a lot of it is because trust has grown. But I think you know Aaron would be able to say what I mean? How did trust grow for us? And what did that look like?

spk_4:   23:48
One of the terms that my husband uses often with conflict or with people having, I don't know, things needing to be fixed. A result. Whatever is trust grows when

spk_2:   24:03
agreements are made and kept, agreements are

spk_4:   24:05
made and kept. So for me kind of goes back a little bit to the any gram of just I'm a future thinker. That's that's for sure. 11 of the things that, um, helps me figure out what my anagram number is. But I noticed through through the years of the beginning of our marriage being just so up and down, we did have a lot of fun. We did have a lot of friends. We did do fun things. We moved in New Zealand like ratting. People are like, Oh, my gosh, if I could only do that, it's like it was fun. We took our problems with us, you know? And so, um, with that is, you know, remembering that there

spk_3:   24:45
were some good

spk_4:   24:46
times. But the the hard the struggle was just, you know, like the rope. It was like every other turn of a braid was like, Oh, that was a hard one. Okay, good. And then hard. Is it Just the trust continued to just we'd build a little trust and then slashed, and then we build a little trust, you know? So we never We never got very far. And I think with my background and, um, my desire for a relational wholeness and my desire to be cared for and included, my parents divorced when I was little. I'm an only child and said a lot of as well of a job they did to make sure I felt loved and was loved and taken care of. I did have that gap of feeling left out or, you know, my family was fractured and I didn't have that, you know, kind of whole family situation. I was constantly back and forth, so, you know, he'd build some trust, and then it would be broken. And I feel like the Lord kind of stepped in in some ways and provided some temporary amnesia. Sometimes it was like, Okay, okay. We got through that, and, you know, we have the little rough couple weeks, and now we're now we're good again. You know not knowing his side because that was, you know, his internal struggle. But I noticed later, many years later that I, my heart in my brain, could not see a future for us. I couldn't envision it, even though I'm a future thinker, because it wasn't safe to feel that he wasn't reliable. Why would I want to plan a future with someone who continued to Not? Why would I want to? I was unable to see a future with somebody who continued to break trust. It wasn't safe for me and my kids. And so you have those moments as a wife where your husband's like, Oh, he's an hour late or oh, gosh, now two hours. Likewise, any calls or texts nowadays, you know, And for me at least I plan that, like, Okay, he's dead. What are we gonna d'oh? You know? And that's just like for a mom with little kids. You just have to Let's just part of life, I think I don't know. Or maybe it's just me as a future thinker, but to the point where I would, because the trust had been squashed so many times, I was like, Okay, we're gonna be fine. Like that's okay. Well, you know, he was great. Oh, ish. And but we're going to move on without him, because I my heart couldn't attach fully because the trust kept being broken, whereas now even married 20 years. So between your 13 and 20 um, 30 year, 13 years, not including our engagement of our dating, an engagement of life together poorly on your seven of that being rebuilt, we're halfway to how long the trust was continued to be pulled out from under me. And now I mean, you know, five kids in our life looks different in some ways. But now, if I think always an hour late Oh, gosh. Two hours, like like we would be crushed. We are family would not be our family because he would be missing because he's such a huge part of it. And I see that now because I trust him. I feel like we're taking care of. He is building into our family in these ways, not just meeting his own like it needs and his own, you know, feeling of inadequacy or whatever, but I never I never felt that before. And so that to me was an interesting thing to really to realize later. Not that he wouldn't be missed, but I I personally hadn't attached enough because it was painful when

spk_2:   28:39
she had to protect herself.

spk_4:   28:40
Yeah, I like further to keep happening. You're like, Okay, well, you're not safe. I better not attach, you know, because that's going to probably open again. And and it did, you know, And that was the That was our history. So

spk_2:   28:53
what kind of things that I do or kind of conversations that we have that started to, You know, I often talk about it, you know, trust being like this, you know, 100% trust being this land bridge or this island way out in the ocean, you know, And it feels like, Oh, my gosh, it feels like so far away to get there. But there's these little land bridges that you make along the way that move towards, like, trust being a spectrum of growth. What were some things that you can remember that were like part of those growth things for us or even for me, that started to allow your heart to be able to go? I think we're building trust. I think we're in that direction,

spk_4:   29:31
one of things that stands out to me, especially with when the Year 13 conversation happened, which was the biggest, fullest, most honest conversation I think we had about his struggle of pornography and how it affected him in our family. At that point, I think I had I had gotten or been working towards knowing that, um that I'm not being compared. That's not the reason that he's going to pornography. That's just his choice. It could've been alcohol or shopping or food like that's not the thing isn't the issue, it's that he's hurting. And so for me, getting to that point was very helpful. So whether you know the person someone meant another day of, like buying a bunch of stuff online, filling up their closets, it's like So before you bought that, what was what were you feeling what was in your heart? You know, you medicated in that way, the way you choose to Medicaid is not the actual problem. Um, so for me, with the 13 year huge conversation and to the point where I do have PTSD of this, I mean I am. We're have discussions I'm shaking because it is so painful and it's so real and it's so raw and it feels so insecure. Feel so unsafe with the person that's supposed to be the safest. You know that your best, like your number one and for me, one of the ways. 100% that helped to get through. That was saying, Okay, you need to decide a guy that we both know that you feel safe knowing everything, and I need to be able to call or text him at any moment and ask him how you're doing. I don't necessarily need to or want to. I'm not sure it's healthy for me to know, like every day, how you're doing, but I need to have access to that information. So it's It was the bringing along somebody else that we both trusted that he met with weekly, and I'm friends with the guy's wife and said, I need to be able Are you okay with me texting or calling your husband? We're in a really bad spot right now,

spk_2:   31:46
and what made that not feel controlling for me because I was learning to go? Part of my role was not to expect her to play cop in my life like that's not marriage, you know? And so it was part of me going. I think, actually, I'm moving past just confession and I'm moving towards repentance. And because confession's good, it's for healing. Let's bring things like God says, That's good. We should live this way. But if we just confess, confess, confess. And there's no movement towards change of heart, mind and soul like I'm gonna be there again, right? And so for her not to feel like that was like policing. I went to my buddy Jason and said, Jason, like, I want my life to be in light. Part of that is I want Aaron to know that anything we talk about this fair game, you don't have to hide anything from her and like we're doing this together. And so she didn't feel like if you ever called Jason was like, Wow, she's not gonna know. And I have to feel like I have to go around the back to ask this. It's like No,

spk_4:   32:39
no, no, no.

spk_2:   32:40
We're doing this thing in light. I think one of the other things we talked about early on well, She's like Dave, we can't like we can't make love If I'm wondering in my head Have you looked at pornography before? We do, Not even before we do. Is there anything hidden in that area? If we're gonna do this because she's like If I feel like there is, she's like it makes me feel like, you know, like I'm being used and that that's not an intimate thing at that point. And she's not. It's like it's not the thing. It's the It's the lying we can't do lying anymore. We have to walk in light. And so that was like a huge agreement early on, that honest, I'm 100% transferred. That was really terrifying for me because I wanted with everything in me to stop and never do it again. I feared that I might do it again, and then I'm like, Oh my gosh, like, will I bless? Share that or will I? Well, I hide that again. And so there was a few times even after we had this big 13 year conversation, I relapse a couple times after that in small ways. But the question was, was I gonna actually talk about it. And was I gonna share it? And was I gonna actually live in the agreement that I said I would do as hard as it was gonna be, um, that we could start living in reality together. Um, so I don't know, I took your but I think that was

spk_4:   33:59
I think even the sharing drew me to him because he was being vulnerable and he was being authentic. And that made all the difference, you know, feeling like I wasn't sure he was hiding. Don't ask, don't ask. It's getting awkward, you know? And so I think the

spk_2:   34:20
in the past year has had to wonder, right? Show it has to go.

spk_4:   34:22
And I would not

spk_2:   34:25
know I was being way more forthcoming. Like I was like, I don't want you to ask. I don't know. I don't want you asked out of fear, but I don't want you to feel like you have to ask. Like I want to live my life in the light. I want to have a friend words you in health and in clarity. And I'm gonna show you with both my actions from like how I'm getting healthy with, like, entering into recovery for myself, but also and how I do our relationship that you should never have to wonder again. Like you should never have to, like, play spin in your mind on how is Dave doing? You know,

spk_4:   34:55
because early on I did feel like I had to, like, be a mom. Like I'm gonna take the you know, this is way back 1999 your 2000. Um, take the computer cord for the Internet with me to class or, you know, because we were stone college like, Okay, this is not building our marriage. You know, some of those things and that you're early on the first couple years too. Deciding this isn't my battle for him. Like he's accountable to the Lord for his actions. I need to step back and let that happen. It's not my I'm not gonna stand for the Lord for his actions, you know? And even that simple, you know, kind of profound realization of like, we're gonna work together on the health of this because I care about him, you know, Um, but this is a funny things. We just had our 20th anniversary last August. Looking at you.

spk_2:   35:57
Yeah, It felt like a really big deal.

spk_4:   35:59
Yeah, and even up through a year, like 15 or I don't even know people would say like, Oh, we're renewing our vows. And I'm like, that is lame because I didn't want to renew what we were doing. It sucked, right? Like being this future thinker. I'm like, why would we want to do that? It has not turned out. It is not what we say, like, you know. And so just now, our 20th anniversary, Um, like, I actually generally want to do that like we're at a place we're so different than when we always So when we got married, But even your five year 10 year 15 Like, we didn't experience the honeymoon period at all? No, a couple years ago. I'm like,

spk_3:   36:40
Oh, my gosh, like all we want to do is hang out like this. Must be what people,

spk_4:   36:45
you know, what video. And it took us a while, you know? And that's okay. You know, now that we've lived through it, I would almost rather it be really enjoy each other. Now then have experience a honeymoon period and have it fade. But, um, that's you know that's the story that God had for us. And we I want to encourage other people toe, have those hard conversations and surround themselves with people who will help them have those hard conversations. I didn't know howto have a hard conversation, either. I would just go quiet and just internal. I was thinking all the things, and it's like I had an inability to let them out for fear of hurting someone's feelings for fear of like, I do have this eight, you know, Wing. But also I I knew he didn't want that, you know, And so, to blow him up about it every time, like I probably spent a couple years. Let's see, our first child was born after we've been married four years. So then about 5 5.5 years we've been married. Two kids. First one's a son. Seconds a daughter initially, you know, even having our son, Cole was like, You cannot have this in her house like this is not, You know, the Internet really started getting big and different things, But once we had a daughter, it just I just became like the protective. What's the fiercest animal? I don't know, like I was done being nice about it because now we had a daughter and they That was a bit of a turning point where he really understood because I really shared how serious this was for us moving forward.

spk_0:   38:35
So when you say I was going to say, when did you put the computer Cordell and start to trust more? Was that like it? Was there a clear moment when that happened? You make It

spk_4:   38:51
was I mean, I remember taking some of those actions. We lived in Fresno for two years after we got married and then ended up moving to New Zealand, which is another random story and probably that first couple of years. But its 1st 2 years.

spk_2:   39:12
Yeah, but I even think, you know, after at your 13 what was super helpful for I think Aaron to do for me is she was always as much as like, you know, she is a more aggressive number of the anagram she's gonna share, but we again because we internalize so much. I think when I was really going, I need my heart needs to change, you know, end God, you're gonna have to do something radical or I'm gonna be on this path and our marriage is not going to go Well, I think I started to allow her space in a good way to share what was below the surface for her of what she really felt. Not just. Hey, I don't like that you looked at pornography, but like, what is is actually doing inside of you, and I think allowing that space for her to feel fully heard and to not in the past. I'll be honest, I probably minimized it. And I probably in my head blamed her for part of it, you know? And I was starting to be able to go. No, I need to draw a circle around me. This is about me learning what repentance looks like and I really want to understand, And so she would start to she started to share more because she don't want to hurt me. In the past two, she was trying to protect me. In some ways, I think in a loving and grace filled way more again, she want to keep guilt on me. You feel terrible, but her to be able to go Here's what it feels like to feel like to. Here's what it feels like to feel like we're not in reality together. Like here's what it feels like to think about our family for the future. Here's what it feels like to make love and not like And no, I'm doing this in some ways, it feels like out of, like obligation. But I don't feel intimate with you. And here's why and like and all those things were so helpful for me. Here it's truth and grace, right? So I was. I've experienced a lot of, I think, Grace, but I hadn't actually experienced some of the truth that I needed to hear. That was actually really helpful to hear. And then I think part of the thing that built back trust for Aaron over time and she could speak into this. But was me getting really serious about letting like stopping, blaming her for stuff and really getting serious about recovery and not just like stopping looking at something but like serious about the health of my soul with Jesus and like entering back in and through recovery over the last eight years, I've relearned in so many beautiful ways. What is God's love because I used to measure God's love on whether I looked at porn. I didn't look at porn that week. God loves me. God loves me not, You know. It was behavioral based on, like pride and despair, like I was like, super bright full. If I felt like I hadn't done something in a while and I was like in despair and in the depths, if I had what's not the gospel right? And so I had to re learn what the gospel was united. I had so many resentments in my life, so many things I built up towards her that I was like, unaware off. You know, it's a walking through recovery. I'm like, Oh, gosh, I'm a super resentful person And that's a lot of the reason I would go and medicate with pornography. Why didn't have any idea on me, that kind of stuff. And so walk back through that and go, Oh gosh, God is forgiving. God is forgiving me of so much. How in the world am I holding all of this over my family and my wife and all these kind of things? And so to release those things to the Lord and live out forgiveness and to make amends genuinely like. I remember making amends for Aaron and going and actually honestly asking Aaron, have you ever felt like enough in our marriage? And I remember like, tears coming down her cheeks as I'm asking that and her going. I don't think I've ever felt like enough in our marriage and being able to, like, finally feel like I hate that. And I want to repent of that so badly, and that's gonna

spk_4:   42:46
take us to engage. I think,

spk_2:   42:47
What's through Engage going through that. You know, I had to read these weird books in the past. It's like, Well, every guy needs to do this certain number of days and you know, it doesn't happen in a couple times in a week than you know something biologically that's so lame. You know, it's not biblical. That's not even like, and that's so puts out a ton of pressure on Aaron, and it just makes it strange, you know? And so I was learning to like, Oh, jeez, I know every year of my life, including my sexual needs to be given under submission to you that needs to be rebuilt. So air is watching. I think these areas of my life where I was leading and I was not expecting her to, like, fix me. You know, I was wanting to be holding Christ. I was sharing my life with men. I was walking out recovery. I was leaning into these things and not like, Oh, pat me on the back. No, those were just the things like, we're starting to build back some trust. And then, you know, I'd come back in conversations with her occasionally. And Kay, when I've asked you to do these things, how did that feel to you? Did that feel loving? She'd be like, No, you know, like we talked recently. Is that OK? Fish. Okay, so, doctor or something, I'm like, I've asked me in the past a lot of times to, like, wear lingerie or something like that. I feel like I'm realizing that might not have been the most loving thing to do and might have made you feel like compared and or that you're not enough again. I said I want to release that entirely like and And she you know, I said, How does that feel to hear me say that, and I don't know what you but I think even those kind of moments were like, Well, I think she said, You know, you don't have to remember, But I think what she honestly said, what she's like, the first thing that came to my mind is I'd like to take all that stuff and go in the backyard and burn

spk_0:   44:37
it. Yeah, we had a virtually the same thing. This was, like, 23 years ago when that after I had initially found out about Grace affair, I kind of went into this weird mode where I thought that I wasn't good enough in that, like our sex had to be a 10 Whatever that I didn't even know what that look like. I thought it meant, um I better go down to the naughty store and get like, some weird equipment. And ah, it was just like I I remember showing her that. And it was, like, the biggest turnoff ever. She was just like, What are you thinking? Missed. Totally missed. Right. And, uh and I think you see, maybe even said I want to burn this, but I mean, we quickly like we we threw it out, I think we just threw it away. I was that I wasted so much money, but

spk_2:   45:33
yeah, but it's interesting what we can start to think creates oneness, right? And if you take cues from the world and what I saw growing up and what I had given his input and all these kind of things, it's not the Kingdom of

spk_4:   45:46
God and part of the the problem in the sticking point, the struggle with it is I grew up exposed pornography. So I came in to it, so scared and so, um, tainted by what I had seen and beaks been exposed to, and then to marry someone who has this as a struggle was like, Are you serious, Lord? Not a not trusting, but like, Are you kidding

spk_3:   46:16
me? That's it. That's what I go. Oh, my

spk_4:   46:20
gosh. Like I mean, I was just so I had nightmares. I watched movies with older cousins where women were raped, like as a little kid. So this

spk_3:   46:30
is and I have

spk_4:   46:31
a very good memory, unfortunately, And so this is what's plain, you know. And even as a child struggled with masturbation and the shame of that Because I also looked like the perfect kid and the perfect Christian kid led the Bible. So you know all this. So I brought all that in two, married someone who had been exposed to and went a different way, you know? So we I had the like. Sex is gross idea. And he had the sexist God idea and trying Thio,

spk_2:   47:00
we both got married. You kidding me? Like thistles? What way?

spk_4:   47:06
Wow, this is almost comical, except it's hell, you know. And so we just We were So we were in such different spaces and not sharing, not talking about it. So I was I had so much fear and so many. Um I don't know what you call him, so many like points. I'm like, Nope, not that. Nope, not that. That reminds me of this note in my mind again, not sharing. And then he's trying to do all these things would be fun and has this other expectation. It was like we were just on two different planets. And until we could really start sharing and healing ourself, then our marriage started to heal. You know, like we really both had to do the individual work, which he completely let out on. I mean, I would took me till last year to go through region for myself again. Why would I wanna go back to that? Why would I wantto uncover and think about again? Things that I worked so hard to protect myself from as an adult and with as a mom, you know? And so, um, so, for myself has brought a ton of healing. You know, we could talk about it some before, but I feel like, even now, it's very different how we talk about it. Um, because I was a complete wreck going into marriage. Well, okay, so I was curious about, um So, while he's going, you guys are going through the trials and things were coming out. What was God revealing to you about your

spk_3:   48:37
heart? I'm asking just because, um, Neck Winnie he came out with with things. I, um My response was OK. Yeah, we're good. Like, Well, at least the second time round. My response was good. Where we were out with God and our faith. Right? At that point, we were good. And then I can see as days went by where the hurt was almost just like sinking in. And I'm understanding and feeling the pain, and I can see myself, like, almost like wanting toe bat away the Bible. And I'm like, I don't want to do my work anymore. Um, God, it's just too hard to to follow you, so I guess. Like, what is it that, um what is it that God revealed to you about yourself that you may have been struggling with, or

spk_4:   49:43
initially, I would say, in the first year, and we've moved a lot of time, so I can kind of market like when it was where we lived, Um, being so hurt and so broken again. No understanding that the pornography it was the, you know, again, the medicating what was really going on, not understanding that initially, Um, I did a lot of praying. I reached out to ah, coworker, um, and was, like, you know, power of praying wife. And, you know, all the brie sources, all the books, and and really not being a place to even think I had a part in it. Um, 100%.

spk_2:   50:33
Which I'll be careful. You didn't have a part of anything of my

spk_4:   50:36
not in his

spk_2:   50:36
shoelaces or you didn't need to do anything sexually to, like, make me. Okay. I don't think that I just want to clarify.

spk_4:   50:43
Yeah, but I I wasn't at a place because of my own pride. I remember literally saying, Like, we don't both have to have a problem. You just have the problem. Okay, well, so I'm human. So that's false, right? I'd have stuff that I but I was so full of pride and so focused on his issue and his sin. And while this is so big and it's hurting us so much, um, that I almost didn't have space tow, say like, Well, wow, I wonder if I play

spk_3:   51:15
a part

spk_4:   51:15
in this Not in again, Not in his choice of choosing pornography, but in just our cohesiveness and our intimacy of married people.

spk_2:   51:25
Yeah, I have, I think too hard, and I don't put words in his mouth. But when when things came out for me a couple times with exposure of like, finding pornography or whatever she experienced trauma, like like, that was traumatic events in her life where the person that you should most trust, which is me, broke trust in a very significant way in a way that made her wonder What's what else is true and I don't know. I don't know that we had people around us at that moment that understood what kind of trauma that WAAS for her. And I think on a bad day she had two probably feel like she had internalized. And I also did not feel like she had to be okay. Like we would watch shows together and, like, you know, PG rated show or something like that. But then there's some sexually something happening in the show. And then immediately the tenor of our like evening would be different.

spk_4:   52:23
I would completely change.

spk_2:   52:24
She would shut down almost like PTSD response. And I had at first, like, you know, like here we go again and which was so wrong. And what we learned over time was to let those be bridges, not walls, where I could go hey, like, tell me, what are you feeling? And that she could feel safe enough for me not to go. You should be over this already. Like so

spk_3:   52:50
there was

spk_2:   52:50
a lot going on there that Aaron didn't have a space and or people to talk to and or even just like for me to save her. You don't have to be okay like

spk_4:   53:00
Well, we went to at one point how many years were where'd we went to the new Christian Christian Ministries And he was in the counseling and then, like a group setting. And then I was in counseling solo and remember him coming home saying, You know, I shared in the group and this is where I'm out and the guys were like, Oh, that's it, like, excuse me, Our life is blowing up and maybe he's not doing this what you're

spk_3:   53:27
doing. He's not that far

spk_4:   53:29
yet. And you're discounting that he's trying to make a change Now was infuriating because we were

spk_2:   53:36
We were hurting

spk_4:   53:36
a mess and people were dismissing it like, Oh, you know? So

spk_2:   53:41
we're facing regional the time people come in, you know, the first few weeks and I'm like, Wow, I don't really know why I'm here. I'm not as bad as you. People likes you, you know, because all of us pain is pain. All of us are fighting a battle. Everyone has trauma in their life. Everyone has pain, sin and suffering in their life. And so we try to early on just go. Hey, normalize the playing field. We're not gonna compare here. We're not comparing pain. We're realizing that all of us air fall in a phone world and with fallen nature's that God is restoring. And so

spk_4:   54:13
yeah, yeah. So initially, I think there wasn't a lot of help or you felt pretty alone. Yeah, I felt very alone and felt like it wasn't mine necessarily to share because it was, I mean, six or seven years in that you did man camp and some of those things that with the intention of college students sharing at this level, um, you know, So we had years of that trauma built up and feeling alone.

spk_0:   54:47
E feel like there's, ah, we've come gotten to a point with that where there's those PTSD moments. But we actually we do share them. Um, I think part of it is like we have, like, home. If it's a sick sense of humor, I mean, it's real pain. So for the 1st 2 years, I was actually just seriously painful, but kind of not growing callous, I would say maybe healed from it, But things like that will come on movies where just this clear. Uh, we both know what we're thinking right now. Like up there it is in movie form in Wonder Woman or whatever it is. Yeah, but out it to each other and say, Hey, you know, popcorn Family night is ruined. Um, is actually funny, I think. I think like most recently we went to Costco and it was like yoga pants. And it's always I had to leave g b three. That was the gym always went to you just cause that was a major struggle for me. Ah, and we are code word or the buzz word is yoga pants just too much there. And, uh, she knows. And so we're at Costco the other day, and that's what you pointed out, was like, you know, they're really, really somebody I know. And it was like it was just nice. So it's nice to kind of not checking.

spk_4:   56:06
Just kind of makes you feel on the same team, like, yes, you were in this together. Oh, my gosh. Look it seriously versus not saying something. Yeah, and then you're both You know, you're both thinking it. And now it's the longer goes. It's more awkward and, you know, versus I have

spk_2:   56:20
the internal discussion. You having a discussion anyway? Be looking. Yes. She thinks I'm

spk_0:   56:25
looking. I am

spk_4:   56:25
desperately saying I

spk_2:   56:26
saw that right. I'm not looking because of human beings Were meaning makers, right? Something meaning makers. Right. So something happens and we tell us the story about what just happened, right? And so I mean, for example, we started having not having to, but realizing we are on the same team. And our goal is that we would want to have everything that God has for us. Abundant life in our marriage in ourselves. All those kind of things, right? And anything that could get in the way of that isn't we're not the enemy towards each other anymore. Those issues, those things could be things that divide us. Right. So, to your point, yoga pants. Good. Divide you. Right? And so we were realizing that. And then we started to take risks with each other a little bit. Right, because what you felt very scary. And so I remember, you know, there's a girl from high school for me that to this day. If I start having like a fearful reserve or if I feel resentments building between us, she comes into my head and we didn't, you know, even, you know, our relationship, me and her. We didn't do anything sexually together. But she's the story. I tell myself of a life would be better if and with. And so like sharing that with Aaron. And you know, I share that with buddies, too, you know, And I'll say, you know, if, like, we're kind of off. Last time we were off a little bit was Christmas time. I didn't want lawn decoration. She wanted on decorations. Awkward, awkward moment. I was like a five year old. It was bad. So anyway, like the next couple of days

spk_3:   57:51
for the

spk_2:   57:52
next couple days were like tents and like not good. And it was crazy how fast this girl popped back into my head and but to call that stuff out with each other because I feel shame around that. I don't want her there like I didn't choose to have her pop into my head.

spk_0:   58:06
What did it look like when I mean, how did you How'd it or

spk_2:   58:10
Yeah, well, I mean, like, we just over time started to say we know that that that's gonna divide us over time if those things air stayed in the dark and hidden. And we also know now not to take, they're not She didn't do anything wrong. I didn't do anything wrong to put in my head, you know? So

spk_4:   58:26
like a dream.

spk_2:   58:26
Yeah, she used to having dreams about a previous guy from her life, and she felt so guilty about it for so long. And And we'd have, like, weird days after her dreams about this guy, and she didn't choose to have a dream about him. But like, I think at one point you just took the risk till, like, share with me like a I have these dreams sometimes. And I think I told her I

spk_4:   58:47
said about him. I was just He was in it randomly. I wasn't thinking too, but it was when we were feeling disconnected. Yeah, it's like it might as well have been a purple elephant. I mean, it didn't even matter that it's it's really not that person. Like I've been that

spk_2:   59:00
s o she shared with me. And I was like and she said, Does that hurt you That I dream about America once? Well, I'm like I'm fine. You're good. I just love that you shared it with me. And can we pray that that wouldn't be anything that divides us anymore? And you tell, makes

spk_4:   59:14
the safe response that trusting, like I'm in this with you. Response versus like. That's a weird Yeah. What did you know? You

spk_2:   59:21
want to go spend time with him, Do you? What do you think? You know, So I

spk_3:   59:24
know you

spk_2:   59:25
like he was there. All right, So the same thing with the scout from high school. For me, there's nothing desire there. But if I don't share it with her and another guy in my life, it spins on. And then, like the next day, I'm thinking more about it. And the next day, because is there a good lie attached to it? Sure, there's always a lie attached to anything that is not of the Lord. You know, it's like Adam and Eve in the garden like this. The stuff we send with is enticing. Like it promises something. And so there is a story attached to this girl from high school. But if I let my mind run with it, I can start living in an alternate rollout. Reality. In three months, my mind would be in a very dark place. Our marriage could be in a very dark place if there's not a renewal of the mind taking place. And there's not a quick check of living back in light and in reality of what is true and what is good and, you know it says in, Ah, I'm trying to remember where, but they might be in the same place. And Romans, I think Romans 12 whatever's good, whatever is pure, whatever's holy like Think about those things, and the peace of Christ will guard your heart in your minds, you know. And so I think it's just taking Jesus serious and God, seriously, what he's talking about with our minds because our minds are huge when it comes to our intimacy together, you're even. Last night, um, something took place, and I I said, Hey, when you do this, here's what it makes me feel and think about and she's like, Oh, gosh, that's really helpful for me to hear because she's like on a bad day I feel like it's just cause you want to, like, feel a certain way sexually or whatever it is. And she's like, That's what I equated like before and not to get too graphic. But I'm like I e you can get it to stop it but anyway, But I just said, you know, you know, in a crass way I can do that by myself and like, that's not why that's not why that's feels loving in any way, shape or form to me, like it's not about sex like it just makes me, you know, like you're making me feel cared for in that moment That feels really, really kind and loving. And but she's like, That's really good for me here because I have an old narrative Has that thought,

spk_4:   1:1:35
Oh, you just wanted to feel good, like physically. That's the only reason. And I happen to be the wife you know, wurst like Versus

spk_2:   1:1:42
replaced me with anybody.

spk_4:   1:1:44
He

spk_2:   1:1:44
placed me with an image, replaced me with a whatever and ah, because it has nothing to do with intimacy at that point.

spk_4:   1:1:50
Yeah, but if he didn't share that, how it makes him feel, really. But it really has nothing to do physically. Then I wouldn't know that old false narrative would never be disbanded.

spk_0:   1:2:02
Yeah, I think that we that was a hurdle that we came upon with. It's not and I actually remember talking you you were talking about. It's not seeing a naked it's not none of that. And I think for me in my past failures it was always this feeling of I want to feel desired e want to feel me to a connection. You, ironically want to feel that intimacy Really just And so sharing that with you with big I think cause then it helped you process through things where you like you said you understand it has nothing to do with this release e,

spk_4:   1:2:41
I think initially I mean years ago I remember saying I'm right here. Here I am like we're married and you're, you know, continually. But again, we didn't know how to communicate our actual needs and desires just to feel pursued to feel, wanted to feel loved. It wasn't necessarily about the sex or the physical, you know, part of it, it was the emotional connection and I was so closed off emotionally the walls were so high and so thick because of fear. And because of what I had experienced that I didn't know how to give that, you know? So it was like just this, like back and forth of inability. Yeah, we hadn't learned.

spk_0:   1:3:26
We have, ah, in our shower. We right or we used to write each other notes. We ran out of Bath Grant, but with the kid's bathroom. Awesome way. Write each other notes and there's one. It's been up there now for like, two years. I'm certain it's stained the wall, really? But, uh, you know, the one I'm talking about. Where is that? You were right next. Yes, it's like what we wanted was right next to each other. The whole time we're talking about each other, we wrote who wrote that? I think you wrote that what we wanted was right next to each other the whole time. It just took this confession like outing ourselves, just taking that risk and being vulnerable. So a constant theme that I don't want to be in

spk_2:   1:4:09
my life, but it is well, And even to that point, you know, I just know there's a guy. His book was pretty instrumental in my own journey of recovery. It's called surfing for God, not like physical, like beach surfing, but like surfing the Internet. And that s see what he did there. So but, uh, but he talked about, you know, there's a quote and it says, No, no man knocks Everyman and knocks on a brothel door is looking for God and that I had to start to through recovery and just through time of Jesus, realize everything I used to be looking for and sexual relationship with Aaron or even in, like, the broken mindset of just sexuality in general. I was really looking for those deep longings of being wanted known, um, pursued all those things like I need that I mean and not in a weird way, But I need that from Jesus first. And so I was having to start practicing intimacy like in my relationship with Jesus. I think that has made all the difference in the world and our intimate. I put so much less pressure on her because she can't be my on all in that area or any other area. But I was having to learn how to be honest like that with Jesus. So the risks I started taking with her happened with God first. I know that seems silly. I'm like a pastor, and I'm realizing I'm taking walks with one of the practices I started early on. Recovery was taking walks in the morning, and one of the things I started to do on my walks was tell him all the crazy thoughts. Tell him all the things that I thought were better than him. Like in a lot of a war sexual in Asia. And I felt so much shame around them. I felt like I had a Santa in the past. I felt like I just sanitize my prayers around to God of, like, you don't want to hear all that stuff like, that's the stuff I'm really spinning on. But you want to hear, like, Okay, I'm praying for so and so today. And will you please help this ministry and set it up? And so I was just learning Go. If we can't be honest together, If we can't actually do this, then I'm not sure I can walk with you. Jesus. And so can you take all of me? Because this is all. I mean, it's not very pretty. So I was telling him Hey, here's what I think is better than you. I think that looking pornography is a better, better refuge than you are. I think that really today, Like, as I woke up this morning, I did not have a song in my heart. I did not have Ah ah, hallelujah. Chorus. I thought of all these sexual thoughts that came flooding into my head. And you know what? I really think about my life right now. I'm resentful. And I wish that, um this was different. I wish this was different. I wish this was different. I don't know what to do with that. I feel like a victim in my life. I feel, you know, I'm like, telling him all this stuff, and I'm like, Oh, gosh, I really feel close to you. Jesus. Right now, you know, this is the first time I actually held intimate with you. And can you take that? And I was realizing Yeah, he can. And actually, he says he wants to walk in light with us, and he wants to live in reality with us. And he said Adam and Eve in the garden. Like after they sinned against him. But he just asked, Where are you? Like you've hit yourself? Will you come out like I can handle it? Like I've created a covering for you in Jesus and what he's done, you're safe. Now, let me heal you. And that was a big deal. And so I feel like that really fueled for us the ability to start for me to start being able to do that with her because I was so scared to be known. I feel like if I was known and seen, I would be rejected. And, um And so, realizing that God didn't do that and doesn't do that, he actually delights in me in all the broken stuff. Um, that may be another human being. Could do that as well. And so that was a It's been

spk_0:   1:7:45
a big journey. Wow. I'm personally just so thankful for this episode. I mean, yeah, you guys are very everything you shared was just very encouraging and rejuvenating. I feel like I needed it. I needed to hear everything. You guys said so. Yeah. Thank you guys for coming on.

spk_2:   1:8:08
Thanks for having us on Thanks for giving Aaron your first podcast experience ever.

spk_4:   1:8:11
Yeah, hopefully will. I'm not Only will, I guess, listener, you are thing.

spk_0:   1:8:18
Whoa, Thank you guys for listening. We appreciate it. Thank you guys again for coming on. Mommy, do you wanna add anything?

spk_3:   1:8:27
Um, anything that.

spk_0:   1:8:29
All right. Well, thank you guys again. Follow us on Instagram, if you can. Do you guys have any plugs?

spk_2:   1:8:36
I would say Yeah. I mean, if you were looking for a place to come and process through anything that we talked about here on this episode, I mean regeneration at the well is six thirty's Monday nights here in Fresno. You can come brand new any Monday night and get started.

spk_4:   1:8:50
And a lot

spk_2:   1:8:51
of other to a lot of churches in town to which is awesome.

spk_4:   1:8:53
And the valley.

spk_2:   1:8:54
Yeah. And the valley, which is fantastic, even if it's not region. Another place, you know, celebrate recovery, You know, another, you know, addiction, recovery process. And here's the thing to none of those things are about recovery. That's the name on them. It's about discipleship to Jesus. Like her is just what brings you in the door. And so you have to have some huge thing going on in your life to jump into slowing down in the gospel. And so I would just say, Come, come and start processing and honesty. And those are good places to get started.

spk_1:   1:9:25
Thank you guys. And we will. I don't know what would normally say here, but I'm gonna have to review this way. Don't have an outro, right? Yeah. Well, thank you, guys. And until next time, take care. Thanks, guys. For additional information about distinct ministries, go two distinct ministries dot org's. You can also follow the distinct podcast on Facebook and instagram and email your questions and comments Toe Andrea at distinct ministries dot or thistles. What way?

spk_4:   1:10:06
Wow, this is almost comical, except it's hell.