WPS 003: The Power of Wix - The Advantages of Having Wix in Your Arsenal with Matt Cici

Have you ever considered using Wix as your website development tool?

Maybe you’ve thought Wix isn’t a viable tool for true professional web designers. Perhaps you’ve selected another CMS platform and you’re sticking with it because of the time, energy, blood, sweat and tears you’ve put into it to become proficient.

I get it. Up until 2010, I was still using Dreamweaver and creating HTML websites. Working with a CMS was a whole different animal, and I really didn’t understand the concept. I knew I had to make the switch but didn’t know which one to pick. At that time, the most talked about platforms were Joomla, Drupal and WordPress. I got a book called Joomla for Dummies and my goodness it was a thick book! I really stressed about my choice, and ultimately I picked WordPress and I’m so glad I did. It’s a big deal to consider learning a new platform either to replace your methods now, or to add to your toolkit.

Today there are a ton of CMS’s to consider especially if you’re just starting out in web design. If you’re like I was, trying to find the easiest platform to get started with, so you may be consider Wix.

Now there are certainly a lot of opinions out there about Wix. Some people love it and some hate it, but listen to these stats:

• WordPress has the largest website market share of CMS websites at just over 64% globally. 
•  Wix comes in at 3rd place after Shopify with just 3.7% of websites globally. And while that sounds like a really small number it equates to over 110 million websites worldwide.

Those statistics come from W3Techs.com.

Wix has been through many evolutions since it came out in 2006. It got carried a bad reputation for a long time because of its early years using the Flash editor.

But flash forward, they now use their own development tool called Editor X. This fairly new editor breaks down the walls developers and designers used to hit when trying to create sites. Enough so, that you may want to take a second look at it.

Today I’m talking with Matt Cici who is a web designer and Community Leader for Wix, with expertise in Editor X. He's designed programming and created curriculum for international film festivals and Apple's popular Today at Apple, educating millions in communities worldwide. Matt is using these same strategies to create A Creative Community for values-based entrepreneurs looking to start and grow their online business.

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Transcript

Cathy: Hey Matt, thanks for joining me today. 

Matt: Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Cathy: So that was some impressive stuff in your bio. You have worked with apple at film festivals. Can you just go ahead and give us a sense of. How you got into your career, maybe, maybe the path that you took and what you exactly do today.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. So I have kind of a mixed medley of a background. I would say I started making films pretty much in my sort of high school to college and. Just found a passion for filmmaking creating shorts made my first feature when I was a senior at my college and kind of pursued that path, all the while, you know, what will lead to us to this kind of later discussion is building websites is I would make a, a website for the films that I was working on either for other filmmakers or for myself and then I just really enjoyed the process of making movies and I wanted to create a sort of educational path for other people that were interested in making film to join me. So I would create different like education programs, as a part of the film production, bringing people on set, going to schools to talk about the productions themselves.

And I it was so much fun and I found it to be really inspiring to allow people to learn, you know, what that production process is like. And honestly, I always wished that I had that sort of resource but it became really challenging because , each film I'd kind of have to start over, find an audience, go to, you know, new schools.

And so I decided to create an education program for a local festival, in my city and kind of have that be the home base, for education programming. So I was able to, to build that program and I've worked with several other film festivals across the us to help them with their educational programs and just really found a passion for, you know, education.

But as you know, in the art world, it's not the easiest thing to, to, to make a living from. So I was, you know, waiting tables on the side and then I found the ability or the opportunity, I guess you could say to work for apple. And so I was teaching. At apple as a creative pro and creating curriculum that would happen in their actual stores, worldwide training employees on, you know, using the software, working with customers, things like that.

And I really enjoyed that sort of facilitation type education and making films. But again, all this time, I was like making a website one or two every year. And then the pandemic. Came and you know, everything I knew with film kind of shut down the stores that I was working at shut down. And so I just decided to like turn on my computer and start to see if that would be something that I could create on, a job through, but also help small businesses.

Cuz most of the places I was working restaurants nonprofits, they were. Facing huge circumstances to like survive through the pandemic. So that first week of like how everything shut down, I reached out to maybe 20 or 30 different local businesses asking, Hey, can I just make you a website? So you can take orders online through the pandemic to help you survive.

And so that was, I guess what led me to this point of, you know, working in web design and brand development. 

Cathy: That's an amazing path. And way to pivot for COVID. I have somebody else I'm talking to that also had to do a major pivot and I, you know, I think we all did. You had to recreate yourself.

Mm-hmm . And because we, we have to survive and I think that's great. It's kind of like the mother of invention. What are the needs now? And let's solve a problem. Let's do that. So you were able to help restaurants by creating online, ordering. For them mm-hmm . So did you program that, are you, do you program?

Matt: No, I, I didn't necessarily program it. I was using some simple online forms for, you know, places that didn't need like a full featured website, but also I would use Wix in order to design and develop a website for those local businesses or nonprofits or, or. 

Cathy: So you didn't use pro. So just to sum up, you didn't use programming, you used Wix and its features yeah.

To create just exactly what they needed, 

Matt: Basically. Yeah. It was being able to create a place, their web presence where they could, you know, interact with their audience, whether that's customers or clients. And again, it didn't start with like a full featured website. I had like a form tool that was basically, you could think of Google forms just to kind of put that in your mind where they could take orders online.

So it was really quick to put up. So people didn't have to think about what they would wanna look like, what they wanted to feel like they're brand and everything. It was just like, Hey, I just need to take orders because I don't know how to do business when we're told to shut. 

Cathy: That is such a cool thing.

You helped so many businesses then probably make it through this time. Did you get paid for that? 

Matt: The first round, no, I just basically was like, Hey, can I help you? And most of the people I reached out to were restaurants or companies of restaurants that I either knew personally had worked for or organizations that I had knew or worked for.

And then also like friends and family, I just like, let people know, Hey, if you need somebody who can do this, like I'm happy to help. And that's awesome. 

Cathy: And of course you build your portfolio, you build your skills, all that kind of stuff. I think Pretty much everyone listening and myself included have done free websites to get exactly that, to get some experience to you can help somebody out while you're also learning that kind of thing.

So that's really good. I love the concept. And I noticed that in the bio that I read about you, that you work with entrepreneurs who are value based. So I would say that sounds like part of your values is. Yeah, yeah. Helping others. Yeah. Learn and, and like you, yeah. And like you said, getting into education, that kind of thing, helping them.

So I think that is really cool. So. Now you do websites, develop websites. yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause you had such a melange of, of different things you were doing. So are you, would you call yourself a web designer, web developer? 

Matt: That's a good question. I think, you know, when you're entering a new place online, you kind of have to type that like biography in.

And so typically it kind of goes web designer, filmmaker, educator. At least for right now. We'll see if those switch order. Okay. But yeah, that, that would be potentially how I classify myself. 

Cathy: okay. It's funny how people do not want to label themselves. Some people don't wanna use the word freelancer some, you know, it's just, it's funny.

We all have our way And it, it has to do also with encompassing exactly what we do and what we wanna be doing. So that's cool. Do you have, who, well, let me ask you, what is the type of clientele that you work with now? Do you have a niche? is it still 

Matt: restaurants? Yeah, it's a good question. I don't think it's restaurants.

So I guess I may be Aming, that's been probably one of the biggest challenges that I've had. Coming from a background of like focusing on community and being a resource. It's been really hard for me to just like isolate in one area and I've read books and attended workshops and taking courses where like you got a niche down, you gotta pick your audience.

So if I had to choose my guess is that I would probably trend toward a solo entrepreneur because that's who I am. You know, I'm a single member agency which, you know, a business owner, I guess you could say. I love that. 

Cathy:  I might steal that. 

Matt: That's okay. I've noticed when I look at like my sort of roster of folks that I work with they tend to be artists.

They tend to be nonprofits, and if they're not those, they tend to work in the education space. you know, informing and, and educating or the health and wellness space. So my guess is arts and arts nonprofits, which fits pretty well background of, you know, working in film and filmmaking and whatnot. But yeah, I, I, I have a hard time choosing and I think it's because when I hear a really good story, I wanna help that person.

Yeah. Start their business or find a way that I can provide a resource. If it's not me creating it, I might be able to guide them in the right direction. Point them to the right resource. 

Cathy: Yeah. I love that. I love to do that too. You hear somebody struggling and you know what it is as a solo entrepreneur to.

Get going to make money to survive on it. And so when you hear those stories, you're like, I wanna help that person. Mm-hmm so it's, it's compelling. Yeah. That I agree with. Okay. So when you're working with these clients to create their online presence in whatever form that needs to be, what platform do you generally use?

Matt: Yeah. So the, the title of this podcast probably kind of notates what it might be. I tend to choose WiX and. , you know, the question of, of why would I use that? I think comes from my background. So when I first started making websites I had tried out several options. In fact, my favorite was using iWeb on the Mac. I don't know if you remember. 

Cathy: I do remember that back in the day. 

Matt: Yes. You know, like we'd play around with dream Weaver and things like that. I really enjoyed creating websites that way. And so I think the closest I could find to that sort of experience was Wix at the time, although it was flash based it's not anymore.

And it hasn't been for a really long time, but I think people tend to forget that this idea of scalability and familiarity. So it become so familiar with the platform. And I've, I've seen people know nothing about web design and feel comfortable in the space. And I've seen businesses that have, you know, huge customer base compared to what I've seen and they can scale with their customer base on the platform too.

So it feels like a good home for anyone just getting started to someone running a really. Well, I guess, well run machine or, you know, well run business. I also use square. I'm a certified partner for square as well. 

Cathy: And, and that's square. Not square space, correct? Yeah, square. 

Matt: Okay. That's why I do a hard stop afterwards square.

The idea of weeble is their kind of web design platform that. I think purchased or owned. And so that's become a part of the square ecosystem. And I would say if I chose to, to work through there, it'd usually be through their marketplace as well. But it tends to work really well for folks who have like a physical business.

The idea of like online and physical inventory. And when we were doing fill festivals, you know, I was like one of the first adopters of the square card reader. So I've been very familiar with their system for a really long time. And I think just the ease and availability of their sort of payment solutions allow WiX for, you know, anyone who's doing.

Pretty intense. E-commerce that's a really good platform to use. Yeah. 

Cathy: I'm familiar with square only in that one. I go to the farmer's market. Yep. They have it plugged into their phone and that's how they get their payments. I mean, I think they were, there was another one into it, but I think square was the first one out there.

With that kind of, yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. And there's, there's a lot of 'em out there. Like Clover is pretty popular right now and Wix has their own POS system too. So I know that like other brands have grown, but we've all kind of been familiar with that little white card reader that you see it, you know, small mom and pop shops or farmer's market.

It's just so easy to be able to, again, interact and engage with your customers or your audience. 

Cathy: Yeah, exactly. And probably easier to set up than some of the online solutions for that kind of thing for larger stores. So like target or something like that, obviously something better for the single solo entrepreneur person or small business or a farmer mm-hmm okay.

So you work generally, I think with Wix. Can you talk about your background with Wix then? I know you've you started using it. You like the interface, it seemed to be good with for clients to be able to then edit, update their own websites. How deep are you into Wix? 

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. For the past, you know, two and a half years or so. I think there was about a year before I became officially a WiX partner as a part of their marketplace. I had been using it to help. A few nonprofits that I knew in an organization that I worked with kind of get a web presence.

And so I was like really discovering the potential possibilities, you know, take YouTube courses or watch some videos to get familiar with it. But I learned by doing. And so if I wanted to do something, chances are, I'd just try it instead of attend a workshop or watch a video or something like that.

I would say 98% of my websites are Wix websites. So I guess deep and at this point I'm. Considered to be a legend partner. It's kind of a weird word to throw around cuz it just sounds very into myself, but the idea is that you're a legend the idea is that you've you've scaled enough what you've reached the highest level of the, the partners.

And I think I've worked on. 150 plus websites at this point over these past two and a half years. And I recently was selected as a community leader for WiX. So I teach workshops classes I'm a, a presence in their online support forum and yeah, it's, it's a huge honor. I'm really excited to be a part of that.

It's brand new just happened this summer, so... 

Cathy: Wow. So you started out. Learning how to use the program. And now you're involved in the company itself. Really? Yeah. You said as a, as a, in the community. And as a part, what is a partner? 

Matt: Yeah, it's a good question. Partner programs are things that exist for other web builders as well.

Essentially. It's this idea that you're recommended. Designer from the platform. So at least for WiX anyways is, you know, they bring me customers from their user base and ask me to help build their websites. I'm also publicly listed on their website as someone who can help you with that. So you start making website and you're like, get.

Maybe building or you're at a point where you wanna do some SEO and you're just like, I don't really know what this means or how to do it. You can just click, hire a partner and then that will direct you to someone like me. 

Cathy: Wow. Okay. So they're bringing you work... and you get paid for that work?

Matt: Yes, I do. That's okay.

Cathy: That's really sweet. It's like you have your own sales team out there. Yeah. Do you find then when somebody comes to you and they're kind of stuck or they're, they can't do it anymore, that you may step into a mess or is everything pretty okay. And you just go from there? 

Matt: Yeah. I, I don't, I, I personally come from a different background maybe.

And so I don't feel like I I'm coming into a mess. As I mentioned, I. Apple. And so you have people with all different backgrounds, you know, tech averse, or they're coming brand new to technology. They're younger, they're older. They're very experienced and they come to a workshop, but there's six to eight people in that workshop with all different levels.

And so my comfort level with teaching or facilitating across those. Areas of understanding have come to a place where, like, I just know it, people have different experience levels. And so if I can make something as simple as how to find the answer or how to find your resources that pretty much eliminates this idea of the, the sort block in front of accessibility towards technology.

Cathy: Okay. That's an interesting segue because I was going to ask you, do you ever find, and this has always been something that people have talked about that you hit a wall when you're creating a, either creatively with the, or stylistically with the look you're trying to get, or with the functionality you're trying to get.

It's always in my world been, cuz I'd use WordPress been kind of  something that people say yeah. At some point you're gonna hit a wall. Mm. 

Matt: Yeah. I think my answer is gonna be kind of like a trick answer. So it's like a yes and a no. So for example, like design limitations, you might feel like you're limited in terms of designing for all devices. So if you jump on WiX you might be like, well, can it do mobile? The answer is yes. Can it do tablet? Not necessarily, but now we have editor X. And so you can design across any break point that you decide. So that's the, that's the like, it's not limitation anymore. Another one would be like, well, can I create my own?

I don't want to use the checkout system that's provided to me for the stores or eCommerce platform. So similar to WooCommerce, Wix has WIC stores. And I don't want to use that. I wanna create my own sort of checkout experience and checkout flow. Great with Velo, which is W's coding language. You can create your own custom coded solution.

You can reach other external databases and API if you need to. So used to be a limitation, but it's not anymore. Another example would be can I create a coaching program and have courses on WIC? And it used to be a point where no, you couldn't do that. I was working with a client who was basically building an online education platform for kids aged five through nine to learn math in the UK.

It's called math while there's a global shutdown and they can't go into schools. And so I worked directly with the WiX team to create courses for WiX. And so now we have this amazing online programs application that allows you to teach courses on WiX. And so it's this idea of like, if you have a direct line of feedback, if the company is open to that feedback and wants to make changes and wants to hear those changes, I just don't feel like there's a limitation anymore because they're willing to work with you to make it happen.

Cathy: Okay. Wait, so you helped develop that capability?

Matt: Through feedback and being able to like present the idea, like, Hey, I'm wondering if this is possible. And it was like, let's talk. And then this idea of being able to test the iterations of the product over time and working closely with the.

Product leads and engineers of that team to be able to like give them feedback of how best to make this thing. 

Cathy: Wow. That's cool. So we have you to thank for that capability and the how the expansion of the tools in Wix. That's super cool. And I was gonna ask you what is editor X and what was Velo? So editor X is more design-oriented as Velo is more functionality? Do I have that right? Or no? Yeah. 

Matt: So editor X is the, essentially the new design platform for, for WiX. It allows you to basically have an advanced editor with design and lay layout capabilities a more accessible CSS format. So you, you don't necessarily have to know all of that language in order to.

CSS grids or different layouts or breakpoint design. So if you're a designer listening to this conversation, you'll know what these mean, but if you're a small business owner without any web experience, it's not gonna be something that you're familiar with right now. But it's something that through even their education of the platform in the platform, you can learn pretty quickly.

But with that, you know, a lot of people talk about moving to. A prototype to the design platform. And so editor X is a tool that was launched just in February of 2020. So it's, it's very new, but it's already, you know, up there in terms of compatibility and features, and it uses the entire WiX ecosystem that powers 220 million users worldwide.

But this idea of taking something from a Figma project, And importing it directly into editor X and having all of your design language there. And it actually started with WAC. So you can upgrade your w site to editor X as well. 

Cathy: Okay. That's what I was gonna ask you. Yeah. So, so if I go into Wix editor, X is what I'm gonna be working with.

Matt: Yes. You can still design in Wix and then okay. If you want more. Scalability, or you want that break point design or you are a designer who really likes to do custom animations and things like that. Editor X is probably gonna be more familiar for you. If you're used to something like web flow editor X is gonna feel like home.

Cathy: Okay, cool. Well, that's amazing. And so then Velo, if you wanted to get into adding functionality of some sort that isn't already available, that's what that's...

Matt: Yeah. So Velo is a full stack development platform empowers you basically to rapidly build, manage, or deploy web applications. So you can create something as simple as just some code to have a custom interaction for button to building an entire web app.

I've seen people, you know, create entire search databases for like real estate. Using VE or, you know, I myself have been able to create an art gallery, like an interactive art gallery using Velo. So it's, it's pretty powerful. And I think the way I've used it, or like I've described Velo before, is this idea of.

anything is possible when you kind of turn on developer mode in WiX and you now unlock the ability to use Velo. And if you have familiarity with design language or sorry, coding language, like JavaScript, it's based on the foundations of JavaScript. So you'll be able to learn it and start adapting it pretty quickly.

There's an entire API resource. Where you can learn all the different commands that you might use inside of Velo or different APIs that you might use inside of Velo. So Wix has been very transparent about. That sort of process and allowing developers to feel at home on the platform. 

Cathy: That is really cool.

When I started well, back in the dinosaur days in the early days I started, it was just HTML and then DreamWeaver. And then these platforms started showing up, but they were, you know, maybe not so great. And then I had to make my choice. It was either gonna be Joomla, Drupal or WordPress, and that was pretty much it at the time. It's like, thank God I picked WordPress the other two are whew. Yeah. They're a whole other animal. And and then since then, of course there's been so many of these platforms that have come about, but it sounds like WiX is really starting to rise above. Let's see the cream rising to the top, I guess in that they still have the easiness for the average person who maybe is doesn't really know web, but can get theirs themselves, a web presence. But then if they need the help of somebody like you, you can go in there and make the magic happen. 

Matt: Yeah. And, and I, I also feel like if you have. Like a desire or like the behavior of wanting to learn.

You could learn it as well. I mean, I, I wasn't someone who would classify myself as a web designer two, three years ago. It's only because I decided that it's something I wanted to learn and approach and you know, there's so many resources that you can take in and, and learn from each other that you could build if you wanted to.

But yeah, you could certainly hire someone too. 

Cathy: I think you're my first person I've met, who uses Wix as a professional web designer. Yeah. And I think what this is showing me and everyone listening is that this is a viable option for you. If you're, if you don't like the WordPress interface, all of them have a learning curve.

Let's just say that they all have their own way of doing things. Some of them have their own language or terminology that you have to get used to. But WiX seems to be the one that comes up with super cool. I've seen some really cool websites lately that aren't cookie cutter. They're very modern looking and I know that the people that I'm looking, I know they created those websites themselves.

So I mean, it's pretty impressive. So anybody out there who's thinking WordPress is just not. Clicking in your head because I know that was a, oh, I hated when I was learning WordPress and everyone was like, oh, it's easy. It's easy. And I'm, but it's hard for me. It's easy for you. It's difficult for me, but if there's some, there's so many other options out there, and this is clearly.

One of the options you can consider. If somebody wanted to learn about WiX, if a web designer or other web professional person wanted to learn Wix, how would you say they go about doing that and integrating it? Maybe starting to integrate it into their business. 

Matt: Yeah. One of the things that is a helpful place to get started is relatively new.

I think it happened back in may when WX released a portal of their website called Wix learn. So it's wix.com/learn. And on there they have their entire library of past workshops. Classes talks. Sessions that they've hosted, organized, you know, in a really unique way. And they also are running online courses and certifications for different things like Velo, or what's really important accessibility on the web learning how to create a blog.

And so you can learn the platform directly from w if you want to that's one way, the other way is the. A lot of tutorials on YouTube. So that's, you know, a good, a great resource for you if you want. Both of those are free. And there's amazing community of WiX partners and WiX themselves. They host workshops and glasses ongoing.

And so if you're ever curious to, to learn alongside someone else who's playing around with the platform, you can do that. It's also the only one that I know of. Maybe you can correct me if I'm. That you can build an entire website without actually ever having to pay for it. So you can have a website on WiX and never have to pay if you don't want to a premium plan for hosting or anything.

Yeah. There'll be a little banner up top that says, like this was made on WiX, but if you're okay with that, you can have a fully functional website. 

Cathy: Exactly. I mean, if you're just starting out and you've got no. This to me is a really great answer. There's other ones out there there's even like wordpress.com versus the actual WordPress.

There's two different things, right? wordpress.com and then wordpress.org, which is where you really get into it. But Dot com used to be, have a free version, but I don't know that they do anymore. And same with Weebly. I think they just have a, a, a period of time where you can have it free and then you gotta, you gotta pay up.

I could be wrong on that, but it's good to know though. So WiX could be free all along until you start making money and then you can up your game. 

Matt: well, yeah, so that's super cool. You're talking about someone who's wanting to learn. Someone who, who is maybe a web designer and wants to like rebuild the current existing website.

Like you could have a window open of a website you like, and try to create it in Wix, and again, not have to worry about paying for hosting or anything like that until you're ready to do it, but it could be your portfolio that you're just showing like what you can build for other folks. And so there's, there's that part to it.

I guess I probably am not very good at plugging myself, but I do run a weekly training series. Through my email list. So if you're curious to learn about that, I'd be happy to share. 

Cathy: And that was gonna be my next question. Because I know I noticed that you, one of the things you do is you offer a course on how to make courses.

Mm-hmm , which I don't know why is confusing to me, but I get it. Cuz I take courses about learning to make courses. Is that, so is that also then not only do you teach it, but do you offer it as a service to a client? Have you ever had a client say, can you set up a mm-hmm teaching platform? Well, you said originally you did.

Yeah. Right with the elementary mm-hmm 

Matt: yeah. So it, it is a course on courses. It's a little bit inception. Right. Cause you had to do the same thing. . But I think that's, that's a huge part of it. Like, you might know that you want to have a course or maybe you don't know. And so the idea of like, what am I doing?

That's repeatable that I could share with somebody else? Or a course doesn't have to be an actual course. It could be systems and procedures where your business has certain compliance that your employees need to meet. And so if you just have something that's on your own website, that only your employees can access, you could do that.

And if you've already on WiX like you don't need to get a teachable or a Kajabi or a Thinkific you actually can build it on WiX and keep your entire customer database and your relationships all in the same place. 

Cathy: I think that's always a great thing when you can keep everything in one spot mm-hmm because it can get, start to get confusing when you have a service over here and a service over there.

Yeah. And you start, fractionalizing all your parts and you can forget people forget. Oh yeah, I got this thing over here. What other courses do you offer? 

Matt: Yeah, so I've recently just hosted a workshop on building your most effective landing page. And I got such great feedback on it. I recreated different components of it and made it into a self-paced.

As well. So you can learn about, you know, how to build your most effective landing page on WiX. And while it's taught for WiX, honestly, anyone could use the same, cuz I teach like methodology of copywriting and different things that can like attract your audience and to it really focused and terms of wording.

And you could put that on a WordPress site or a web flow site. If it still apply, you just not take. The lessons that I show you how to do it in Wix, I guess. 

Cathy: Okay. So with WiX and what you've said, this could be like a two part thing for anybody listening. It could be something where if you're at a point where you feel like you're ready to build your own course, you can do this through WiX.

You can set up a course that teaches people how to do certain things. This might be a good thing for your clients to teach them how to edit their website as well. Setting up little. Segments, I guess, of how to, how to do their edits. But also having, if you happen to have a client who needs a teaching platform, this is something that you can also offer as a service for them.

Matt: Mm-hmm right. 

Cathy: So Matt, for those who are interested in learning more about you, the services you offer and maybe some of the courses you offer that might help them in their business where can we find you? 

Matt: Yeah. Easiest place is just my website. So it's Matt Cici.com MattCici.com. I'm not really on social media.

It's just my model. I'm mostly just through my newsletter and on my website. I do have that weekly training series so you can sign up. Otherwise, if the only thing you wanna remember is I'll put I'll put something together for everyone here which will be link.mattcici.com/webprosavvy for you.

And that way you can, you know, reference anything that we talked about or get in touch with me. If you've got questions, I'm an open book, so I'd be happy to be a resource for. 

Cathy: And we appreciate that. You've shared some really good insights. Thank you for that. And I'll be putting all of the websites and things that we've referred to in the show notes.

So people will be able to look up if they didn't get to jot that down, Matt, it was so great to talk to you and learn from you. And I'm kind of, kind of getting a little inkling that I might wanna try WiX. And I'm a, and I'm a staunch WordPress person for years now, years and years. So it just intrigues me and I've seen, just seen so many cool sites now that I'm just wondering, because the client doesn't care how you get a website necessarily.

I've had a few people request WordPress, but a client wants a website. They don't care how it gets done. They, they need it done. And so I don't know that the platform necessarily matters as long as you can do what they need. So I think this is really cool. 

Matt: Yeah. I would compare it to like my experience in filmmaking.

Right now you can make a film on an iPhone. In fact, a film won Sundance shot on iPhone. It's just a tool. So WordPress WiX, they're all tools to get to the same result. And wherever you feel most at home and feel like brings you joy should be the place that you stay or play around with. And for me, that's WiX for you.

It might be something else, but we're all doing the same thing. Helping people get their presence online to hopefully impact a local or larger community of folks with their product or their service. And so I think we're, we're all just doing the same thing. 

Cathy: That's exactly right. We're all in it to help people.

Anybody who's listening now and is a solo entrepreneur runs a very small couple person agency. You understand how hard it is to run a small business and to pull everything together. And so I think the majority of us wanna help other people who may have those same kind of issues and struggles.

This is one thing we can do for them. So I really appreciate that, Matt. It was great having you here today. Thank you for joining us and sharing, imparting your wisdom and knowledge with us. And I hope we get to talk again soon. 

Of course, always open to it and thanks for having me. Appreciate it. 

All right.

Thank you.