{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.79,"body":"Hey Dr. Catherine"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.79,"body":"rams Lynne is here today to talk"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2.79,"endTime":5.64,"body":"about her work in forensic"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2.79,"endTime":5.64,"body":"psychology. She's written over"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":5.64,"endTime":10.05,"body":"70 books, of which I've read"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":5.64,"endTime":10.05,"body":"one, Confessions of a serial"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":10.05,"endTime":13.86,"body":"killer about the BTK Killer. And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":10.05,"endTime":13.86,"body":"she's also part of the series on"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":13.86,"endTime":17.49,"body":"a\u0026e Based on that book, and both"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":13.86,"endTime":17.49,"body":"are great. And we're gonna talk"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":17.49,"endTime":20.31,"body":"about that. Plus, we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":17.49,"endTime":20.31,"body":"talk about red flags for serial"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":20.31,"endTime":24.63,"body":"killers and mass murderers,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":20.31,"endTime":24.63,"body":"psychopaths and sociopaths. If"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":24.63,"endTime":27.45,"body":"there are any active serial"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":24.63,"endTime":27.45,"body":"killers out there right now, and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":27.45,"endTime":29.07,"body":"much, much more stay right there"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":41.79,"endTime":44.7,"body":"please welcome Dr. Catherine"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":41.79,"endTime":44.7,"body":"rams Lynne. You prefer just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":44.7,"endTime":49.47,"body":"Catherine? Catherine is fine."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":44.7,"endTime":49.47,"body":"Okay. Yeah. So I'm just I'm so"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":49.47,"endTime":51.96,"body":"amazed by all the work that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":49.47,"endTime":51.96,"body":"you've done, how many degrees"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":51.96,"endTime":54.06,"body":"you have how many books you've"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":51.96,"endTime":54.06,"body":"written? I don't I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":54.06,"endTime":57.06,"body":"seriously, it's inspiring. I had"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":54.06,"endTime":57.06,"body":"to look I was like, Okay, who"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":57.06,"endTime":60.51,"body":"has more books? You are Stephen"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":57.06,"endTime":60.51,"body":"King. You have 68 Stephen King"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":60.51,"endTime":61.65,"body":"was like 64."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":61.92,"endTime":65.55,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":61.92,"endTime":65.55,"body":"actually have 69. Now. Oh, 60 is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":65.55,"endTime":70.59,"body":"that I just signed for 7071 and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":65.55,"endTime":70.59,"body":"72. So yeah, I'm on my way."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":70.71,"endTime":74.46,"body":"Wow. So the latest"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":70.71,"endTime":74.46,"body":"one that's out is the BTK one"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":74.46,"endTime":76.32,"body":"right are the other ones coming"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":74.46,"endTime":76.32,"body":"out in August."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":76.62,"endTime":78.51,"body":"There's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":76.62,"endTime":78.51,"body":"been others since him that one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":78.51,"endTime":84.24,"body":"came out. And 2016 as a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":78.51,"endTime":84.24,"body":"hardcover. 2017 has paperback"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":84.93,"endTime":88.56,"body":"recently as an audio book."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":84.93,"endTime":88.56,"body":"That's I've had some since then."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":90.54,"endTime":92.31,"body":"Okay, what is the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":90.54,"endTime":92.31,"body":"most recent one?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":93.33,"endTime":97.17,"body":"The most"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":93.33,"endTime":97.17,"body":"pandemic hurt. The most recent"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":97.17,"endTime":100.98,"body":"one is coming out this August."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":97.17,"endTime":100.98,"body":"And then before that, that was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":101.01,"endTime":104.88,"body":"how to catch a killer, which"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":101.01,"endTime":104.88,"body":"came out from Sterling. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":104.88,"endTime":109.32,"body":"that's the 30 cases of serial"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":104.88,"endTime":109.32,"body":"killers who got caught and how"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":109.32,"endTime":113.25,"body":"they got caught. Oh, okay. I'll"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":109.32,"endTime":113.25,"body":"have to I have to check that one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":113.25,"endTime":115.83,"body":"out. Yeah, these are all wanted"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":113.25,"endTime":115.83,"body":"to read as many as I could. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":115.83,"endTime":119.4,"body":"got one I got that's about as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":115.83,"endTime":119.4,"body":"many as I can get ATK one. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":119.4,"endTime":123.03,"body":"then I watched the series about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":119.4,"endTime":123.03,"body":"it to the how to catch a serial"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":123.03,"endTime":125.1,"body":"killer. And that sounds really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":123.03,"endTime":125.1,"body":"interesting. Because it seems"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":125.1,"endTime":128.25,"body":"like now there's not very many"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":125.1,"endTime":128.25,"body":"serial killers because of the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":128.25,"endTime":131.85,"body":"DNA stuff. It's hard for them to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":128.25,"endTime":131.85,"body":"repeat killing, right? That's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":131.85,"endTime":135.36,"body":"not true. They don't think about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":131.85,"endTime":135.36,"body":"stuff like that. They they often"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":135.39,"endTime":139.41,"body":"think they're immune to capture."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":135.39,"endTime":139.41,"body":"They're smart, they know how to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":139.41,"endTime":144.03,"body":"take precautions. And also"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":139.41,"endTime":144.03,"body":"they're killing is not about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":144.03,"endTime":148.83,"body":"logic and figuring things out."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":144.03,"endTime":148.83,"body":"It's compelled by, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":148.83,"endTime":152.49,"body":"whatever, whatever's motivating"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":148.83,"endTime":152.49,"body":"them. And they do believe they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":152.49,"endTime":155.94,"body":"can get away with it. And you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":152.49,"endTime":155.94,"body":"know, what we we don't know who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":155.94,"endTime":161.61,"body":"everybody is. There still are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":155.94,"endTime":161.61,"body":"certainly series of crimes. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":161.61,"endTime":165.48,"body":"we don't have we have not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":161.61,"endTime":165.48,"body":"arrested anyone for. So that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":165.48,"endTime":168.99,"body":"not that wouldn't be a reason"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":165.48,"endTime":168.99,"body":"why, why they've diminished. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":168.99,"endTime":171.54,"body":"know people are making that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":168.99,"endTime":171.54,"body":"argument. But I don't see that."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":171.54,"endTime":174.45,"body":"That's true. So you think"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":171.54,"endTime":174.45,"body":"there's some serial killers that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":174.45,"endTime":177.36,"body":"are out there right now that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":174.45,"endTime":177.36,"body":"just haven't been caught? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":177.39,"endTime":180.6,"body":"I mean, look at look at what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":177.39,"endTime":180.6,"body":"happened with Sam little. A"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":180.6,"endTime":184.32,"body":"couple years ago, he came out"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":180.6,"endTime":184.32,"body":"and said he'd been killing for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":184.32,"endTime":188.61,"body":"decades, to the tune of 93"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":184.32,"endTime":188.61,"body":"victims. We didn't know anything"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":188.61,"endTime":192.78,"body":"about him. And during that time,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":188.61,"endTime":192.78,"body":"he was very clever about the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":193.26,"endTime":196.26,"body":"types of victims he picked,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":193.26,"endTime":196.26,"body":"which he knew would be under the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":196.26,"endTime":202.62,"body":"radar, mostly black female, drug"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":196.26,"endTime":202.62,"body":"addicted prostitutes or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":202.62,"endTime":207.18,"body":"runaways, or people who got off"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":202.62,"endTime":207.18,"body":"buses or, you know, people that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":207.21,"endTime":210.36,"body":"they just wouldn't command very"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":207.21,"endTime":210.36,"body":"many resources for an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":210.36,"endTime":215.07,"body":"investigation. So, and he was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":210.36,"endTime":215.07,"body":"right. And he then confessed and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":215.1,"endTime":219.0,"body":"turns out, he had been killing"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":215.1,"endTime":219.0,"body":"people. And so there were a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":219.0,"endTime":223.14,"body":"number of unsolved cold cases"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":219.0,"endTime":223.14,"body":"attributed to him. They did not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":223.14,"endTime":227.94,"body":"like 93 to him, but they linked"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":223.14,"endTime":227.94,"body":"over 50. Is that was that one in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":227.94,"endTime":231.45,"body":"Ohio? Or where was that? He was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":227.94,"endTime":231.45,"body":"all over the country? Oh,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":232.2,"endTime":237.33,"body":"somewhere in Ohio, Cleveland."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":232.2,"endTime":237.33,"body":"Okay. But California, Texas,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":237.36,"endTime":241.74,"body":"Florida. He was in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":237.36,"endTime":241.74,"body":"places. I had on somebody from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":242.04,"endTime":244.53,"body":"this this website called the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":242.04,"endTime":244.53,"body":"murder Accountability Project."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":244.53,"endTime":246.39,"body":"And we spent a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":244.53,"endTime":246.39,"body":"episode talking about the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":246.39,"endTime":249.87,"body":"Chicago strangler, because that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":246.39,"endTime":249.87,"body":"seems to be one he thinks there"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":249.87,"endTime":253.26,"body":"is a serial killer in Chicago,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":249.87,"endTime":253.26,"body":"that the all the strangulations"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":253.29,"endTime":256.47,"body":"happening, they're linked to one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":253.29,"endTime":256.47,"body":"person. Maybe"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":258.78,"endTime":259.68,"body":"you've studied that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":258.78,"endTime":259.68,"body":"case at"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":259.68,"endTime":263.7,"body":"all, you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":259.68,"endTime":263.7,"body":"know, until we get the person"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":263.7,"endTime":268.59,"body":"and find out if we can unless"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":263.7,"endTime":268.59,"body":"there's DNA that links them. If"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":268.59,"endTime":274.14,"body":"it's if you're just looking at"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":268.59,"endTime":274.14,"body":"behavior or geography, something"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":274.14,"endTime":278.37,"body":"like that. Maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":274.14,"endTime":278.37,"body":"speculation even Yeah, Jack the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":278.37,"endTime":282.21,"body":"Ripper with the so called"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":278.37,"endTime":282.21,"body":"canonical five victims. They"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":282.21,"endTime":283.71,"body":"might not all be linked either."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":284.46,"endTime":286.92,"body":"Really what you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":284.46,"endTime":286.92,"body":"thought the Jack the Ripper"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":286.92,"endTime":291.51,"body":"could also be way more victims"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":286.92,"endTime":291.51,"body":"to write is now more or less,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":291.69,"endTime":292.23,"body":"okay."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":292.56,"endTime":294.78,"body":"Or no"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":292.56,"endTime":294.78,"body":"Jack the Ripper at all? Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":295.83,"endTime":296.43,"body":"Just never"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":296.43,"endTime":298.74,"body":"know. Yeah, this"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":296.43,"endTime":298.74,"body":"guy has like all this data and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":298.74,"endTime":301.53,"body":"he looks at these data points."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":298.74,"endTime":301.53,"body":"And that's where he's coming to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":301.53,"endTime":305.13,"body":"that conclusion. So the points"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":301.53,"endTime":305.13,"body":"always need interpretation."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":305.19,"endTime":308.28,"body":"Sure, yeah. Nothing's like you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":305.19,"endTime":308.28,"body":"said until we catch the person."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":308.28,"endTime":311.73,"body":"We don't know for sure. But the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":308.28,"endTime":311.73,"body":"DNA definitely does help a lot."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":311.73,"endTime":312.15,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":312.36,"endTime":314.7,"body":"It does,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":312.36,"endTime":314.7,"body":"because that makes a link among"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":314.7,"endTime":318.69,"body":"scenes and among victims view,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":314.7,"endTime":318.69,"body":"if you have victims in new each"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":318.69,"endTime":323.16,"body":"other, are you have the same"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":318.69,"endTime":323.16,"body":"kind of victim in the same kind"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":323.16,"endTime":327.96,"body":"of trade, for example, sex work,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":323.16,"endTime":327.96,"body":"or are they all worked in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":327.96,"endTime":332.58,"body":"same gym or, you know, something"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":327.96,"endTime":332.58,"body":"like that, you have a more"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":332.58,"endTime":336.09,"body":"likelihood, but it's all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":332.58,"endTime":336.09,"body":"probability analysis. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":336.09,"endTime":340.53,"body":"probability analysis has an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":336.09,"endTime":340.53,"body":"error rate. And the size of that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":340.53,"endTime":346.95,"body":"error rate is all it is related"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":340.53,"endTime":346.95,"body":"to how much you're speculating."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":347.31,"endTime":351.9,"body":"So when somebody says there's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":347.31,"endTime":351.9,"body":"serial killer, that will link"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":351.9,"endTime":355.92,"body":"all these crimes like the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":351.9,"endTime":355.92,"body":"trucker idea that there's all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":355.92,"endTime":359.28,"body":"these truck routes across the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":355.92,"endTime":359.28,"body":"country linked all these either"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":359.28,"endTime":366.36,"body":"missing or murdered women, maybe"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":359.28,"endTime":366.36,"body":"till we catch them and can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":366.36,"endTime":370.71,"body":"definitively place in there,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":366.36,"endTime":370.71,"body":"there's an error rate. And we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":370.71,"endTime":374.58,"body":"could be wrong. So I don't like"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":370.71,"endTime":374.58,"body":"saying, Yeah, that. That looks"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":374.58,"endTime":378.06,"body":"good. That's a serial killer. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":374.58,"endTime":378.06,"body":"don't know that."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":378.33,"endTime":381.69,"body":"Right. Do you think"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":378.33,"endTime":381.69,"body":"the killers now are watching"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":381.69,"endTime":385.17,"body":"these crime shows and things and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":381.69,"endTime":385.17,"body":"trying to pick up tips and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":385.17,"endTime":386.88,"body":"tricks on how to not get caught?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":387.21,"endTime":389.94,"body":"They've"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":387.21,"endTime":389.94,"body":"always been doing that BTK"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":390.15,"endTime":394.95,"body":"demonstrator went to criminal"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":390.15,"endTime":394.95,"body":"justice classes. Yeah. And he"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":394.95,"endTime":398.97,"body":"was in a classroom with one of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":394.95,"endTime":398.97,"body":"the pathologists who was talking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":398.97,"endTime":403.44,"body":"about one of the victims and the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":398.97,"endTime":403.44,"body":"autopsy hit me. He was sitting"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":403.44,"endTime":406.38,"body":"there listening to his own work."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":406.83,"endTime":409.86,"body":"That's creepy. So"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":406.83,"endTime":409.86,"body":"one of the things he did was he,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":410.01,"endTime":413.13,"body":"he turned the heat up in the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":410.01,"endTime":413.13,"body":"rooms that actually even do"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":413.13,"endTime":413.64,"body":"anything."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":413.73,"endTime":416.7,"body":"He only"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":413.73,"endTime":416.7,"body":"did that once. And he read"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":416.7,"endTime":421.44,"body":"novels. Something sounded"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":416.7,"endTime":421.44,"body":"interesting. He tried it. I did"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":421.44,"endTime":426.27,"body":"that once. Because yeah, that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":421.44,"endTime":426.27,"body":"boils time since death"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":426.3,"endTime":427.35,"body":"estimates."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":428.34,"endTime":430.86,"body":"Okay, so it does do"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":428.34,"endTime":430.86,"body":"something. But I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":430.89,"endTime":432.03,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":430.89,"endTime":432.03,"body":"but it didn't, wouldn't have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":432.03,"endTime":434.85,"body":"helped in that case, that was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":432.03,"endTime":434.85,"body":"the teros wouldn't have helped"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":434.85,"endTime":439.56,"body":"because the younger kids went to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":434.85,"endTime":439.56,"body":"school, their parents are alive."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":439.92,"endTime":443.61,"body":"When they came home, they found"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":439.92,"endTime":443.61,"body":"their parents dead. So it's very"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":443.61,"endTime":447.27,"body":"small timeframe. And there, it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":443.61,"endTime":447.27,"body":"it's really not going to matter"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":447.27,"endTime":451.77,"body":"that much. And honestly, it was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":447.27,"endTime":451.77,"body":"just somebody who was trying not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":451.77,"endTime":455.97,"body":"because he was so clever. But he"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":451.77,"endTime":455.97,"body":"read about it and thought, let"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":455.97,"endTime":456.84,"body":"me do this."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":457.5,"endTime":459.96,"body":"Right. But that's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":457.5,"endTime":459.96,"body":"kind of a myth that people think"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":459.96,"endTime":462.66,"body":"that the serial killers are like"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":459.96,"endTime":462.66,"body":"these Hannibal Lecter is really"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":462.66,"endTime":465.51,"body":"smart people. That's typically"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":462.66,"endTime":465.51,"body":"not the case. Most of them are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":465.51,"endTime":467.04,"body":"below average intelligence,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":465.51,"endTime":467.04,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":467.4,"endTime":469.26,"body":"Well, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":467.4,"endTime":469.26,"body":"mean, we're, we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":469.29,"endTime":474.21,"body":"we have documented over 5000"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":469.29,"endTime":474.21,"body":"serial killers. So your IQ is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":474.21,"endTime":477.81,"body":"going to span similar to that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":474.21,"endTime":477.81,"body":"population as it does to the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":477.81,"endTime":482.61,"body":"population at large. There are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":477.81,"endTime":482.61,"body":"some bins, streets smart, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":482.61,"endTime":487.35,"body":"not IQ smart. There have been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":482.61,"endTime":487.35,"body":"some IQ smart, but not street"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":487.35,"endTime":491.52,"body":"smart. Many of them are just"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":487.35,"endTime":491.52,"body":"average or even lower than"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":491.52,"endTime":495.81,"body":"average. But look at Gary"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":491.52,"endTime":495.81,"body":"Ridgway, the Greenway, the Green"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":495.81,"endTime":502.35,"body":"River Killer. You know, his IQ"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":495.81,"endTime":502.35,"body":"was definitely low average. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":502.35,"endTime":508.77,"body":"yet, he got away with at least"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":502.35,"endTime":508.77,"body":"49 If not more murders, because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":508.83,"endTime":511.35,"body":"he was straight smart. He was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":508.83,"endTime":511.35,"body":"clever, huh?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":511.83,"endTime":513.39,"body":"That's a good"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":511.83,"endTime":513.39,"body":"point. Because I wondered about"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":513.39,"endTime":517.08,"body":"that. Like, I read that too,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":513.39,"endTime":517.08,"body":"that his IQ was below average."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":517.08,"endTime":518.76,"body":"But yeah, he's one of the most"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":517.08,"endTime":518.76,"body":"prolific"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":519.87,"endTime":521.46,"body":"be the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":519.87,"endTime":521.46,"body":"polygraph."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":522.72,"endTime":524.7,"body":"Oh, that's right."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":522.72,"endTime":524.7,"body":"Yeah. How does he do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":527.1,"endTime":529.11,"body":"it when"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":527.1,"endTime":529.11,"body":"you believe your own narrative,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":529.26,"endTime":532.35,"body":"when you're sure about your own"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":529.26,"endTime":532.35,"body":"story, it doesn't register"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":532.38,"endTime":536.82,"body":"polygraphs only they're taking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":532.38,"endTime":536.82,"body":"body readings and said they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":536.82,"endTime":541.5,"body":"not truth detectors or lie"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":536.82,"endTime":541.5,"body":"detectors they're they read"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":541.5,"endTime":547.53,"body":"physiological reactions to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":541.5,"endTime":547.53,"body":"things and if you know he's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":547.53,"endTime":552.63,"body":"psychopath, he can he already"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":547.53,"endTime":552.63,"body":"has low physiological arousal in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":552.63,"endTime":556.89,"body":"the first place. If he's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":552.63,"endTime":556.89,"body":"practiced if he there I don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":556.89,"endTime":560.88,"body":"want to teach people how to grab"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":556.89,"endTime":560.88,"body":"zone I'm gonna go into all that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":560.88,"endTime":565.86,"body":"here but there are certainly are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":560.88,"endTime":565.86,"body":"ways to do it. And if he's done"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":565.86,"endTime":570.24,"body":"any any looking it up at all."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":565.86,"endTime":570.24,"body":"Yeah, now there was no internet"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":570.24,"endTime":576.0,"body":"in the 1980s or someone like him"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":570.24,"endTime":576.0,"body":"to look stuff up but certainly"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":576.0,"endTime":580.92,"body":"if you lie easily, because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":576.0,"endTime":580.92,"body":"they're they have no investment"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":580.92,"endTime":584.34,"body":"in truth in investment only and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":580.92,"endTime":584.34,"body":"getting away with doing what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":584.34,"endTime":587.91,"body":"they want to do. So if you have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":584.34,"endTime":587.91,"body":"no investment in truth, it's not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":587.91,"endTime":590.01,"body":"going to register in your body."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":590.52,"endTime":593.01,"body":"Right like, because"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":590.52,"endTime":593.01,"body":"this is the the way the lie"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":593.01,"endTime":596.79,"body":"detectors work is they they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":593.01,"endTime":596.79,"body":"register like anxiety and guilt"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":596.79,"endTime":599.97,"body":"and he did not feel guilt or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":596.79,"endTime":599.97,"body":"anxiety about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":600.0,"endTime":602.43,"body":"On"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":600.0,"endTime":602.43,"body":"primes. Yeah, he was helping the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":602.43,"endTime":603.12,"body":"police"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":603.51,"endTime":606.36,"body":"is what he Yeah. So"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":603.51,"endTime":606.36,"body":"the fence was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":607.74,"endTime":610.05,"body":"eliminated."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":607.74,"endTime":610.05,"body":"Yeah, eliminating sex workers."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":610.08,"endTime":613.29,"body":"That was what the police wanted."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":610.08,"endTime":613.29,"body":"He was doing right thing."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":613.74,"endTime":616.26,"body":"And a majority of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":613.74,"endTime":616.26,"body":"the serial killers are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":616.26,"endTime":618.42,"body":"psychopaths, or what's it what"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":616.26,"endTime":618.42,"body":"tell me the difference between"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":618.42,"endTime":622.59,"body":"psychopath and sociopath is I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":618.42,"endTime":622.59,"body":"was confused those two. Well,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":622.59,"endTime":622.92,"body":"first,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":622.92,"endTime":625.53,"body":"let's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":622.92,"endTime":625.53,"body":"talk about the word psycho"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":626.31,"endTime":631.32,"body":"covers two different distinct"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":626.31,"endTime":631.32,"body":"populations, psychotic"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":631.32,"endTime":634.83,"body":"individuals and psychopathic"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":631.32,"endTime":634.83,"body":"individuals. Psychotic"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":634.83,"endTime":639.15,"body":"individuals are disconnected"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":634.83,"endTime":639.15,"body":"from reality, their thoughts are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":639.15,"endTime":644.22,"body":"disordered, we have some serial"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":639.15,"endTime":644.22,"body":"killers who were psychotic. Now,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":644.22,"endTime":648.48,"body":"if they also are psychopaths as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":644.22,"endTime":648.48,"body":"maybe something against schizoid"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":648.48,"endTime":652.62,"body":"path, they're really dangerous,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":648.48,"endTime":652.62,"body":"because they have disordered"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":652.62,"endTime":656.97,"body":"thinking on top of no remorse"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":652.62,"endTime":656.97,"body":"and no conscience and nothing"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":656.97,"endTime":661.41,"body":"like that. The sociopath is an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":656.97,"endTime":661.41,"body":"older word that comes from the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":661.41,"endTime":665.82,"body":"1950s and 60s, some people still"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":661.41,"endTime":665.82,"body":"like to use it. Most"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":665.85,"endTime":668.76,"body":"professionals aren't really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":665.85,"endTime":668.76,"body":"using it, there's no diagnostic"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":668.76,"endTime":673.14,"body":"instrument for it, what what the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":668.76,"endTime":673.14,"body":"diagnostic instrument is for his"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":673.17,"endTime":679.71,"body":"antisocial personality disorder."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":673.17,"endTime":679.71,"body":"So and and psychopathy also has"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":679.71,"endTime":683.04,"body":"a diagnostic instrument. But"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":679.71,"endTime":683.04,"body":"different countries use"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":683.04,"endTime":687.9,"body":"different things. So our country"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":683.04,"endTime":687.9,"body":"tends to use the Diagnostic and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":687.9,"endTime":691.44,"body":"Statistical Manual for mental"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":687.9,"endTime":691.44,"body":"disorders, which is antisocial"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":691.44,"endTime":696.18,"body":"personality disorder. Don't talk"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":691.44,"endTime":696.18,"body":"about psychopaths, unless they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":696.21,"endTime":700.95,"body":"distinctly use the psychopathy"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":696.21,"endTime":700.95,"body":"checklist. But that psychopathy"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":700.95,"endTime":705.54,"body":"checklist is used in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":700.95,"endTime":705.54,"body":"other countries. I personally"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":705.54,"endTime":710.19,"body":"prefer psychopath there's not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":705.54,"endTime":710.19,"body":"really a distinction, because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":710.19,"endTime":714.06,"body":"there's no diagnostic instrument"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":710.19,"endTime":714.06,"body":"for sociopath. That's an elder"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":714.06,"endTime":716.97,"body":"word. It doesn't mean much to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":714.06,"endTime":716.97,"body":"me."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":717.18,"endTime":719.13,"body":"Okay, that makes"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":717.18,"endTime":719.13,"body":"sense. Yeah. Cuz I read a book"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":719.16,"endTime":722.76,"body":"called The Sociopath Next Door."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":719.16,"endTime":722.76,"body":"And this was all about how"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":722.76,"endTime":724.89,"body":"I took"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":722.76,"endTime":724.89,"body":"all this psychopath stuff."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":725.55,"endTime":727.92,"body":"Okay, because it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":725.55,"endTime":727.92,"body":"said like, one in six people are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":727.92,"endTime":732.0,"body":"sociopath, which is sounds"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":727.92,"endTime":732.0,"body":"scary. But then she explains"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":732.0,"endTime":735.36,"body":"that, you know, like people like"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":732.0,"endTime":735.36,"body":"a surgeon or people in high"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":735.36,"endTime":740.13,"body":"military, jobs and things they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":735.36,"endTime":740.13,"body":"need to have that disconnect"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":740.28,"endTime":741.21,"body":"from what they're doing."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":742.65,"endTime":744.03,"body":"You can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":742.65,"endTime":744.03,"body":"have that disconnect without"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":744.03,"endTime":748.38,"body":"being psychopathic, right? It's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":744.03,"endTime":748.38,"body":"called a clinical approach to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":748.38,"endTime":752.76,"body":"things I have it when I'm when"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":748.38,"endTime":752.76,"body":"I'm working with, with clients,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":752.97,"endTime":756.21,"body":"or even with serial killers so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":752.97,"endTime":756.21,"body":"that that doesn't make me a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":756.21,"endTime":760.92,"body":"psychopath or a sociopath. That"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":756.21,"endTime":760.92,"body":"is a that's a mental state."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":760.95,"endTime":764.85,"body":"That's, you know, you're doing"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":760.95,"endTime":764.85,"body":"your work. It's clinical. And if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":764.85,"endTime":768.27,"body":"you don't have a diagnostic"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":764.85,"endTime":768.27,"body":"instrument for sociopathy, what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":768.27,"endTime":771.3,"body":"does it even mean? Doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":768.27,"endTime":771.3,"body":"anything. Now, there are some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":771.3,"endTime":776.1,"body":"people who make the claim. a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":771.3,"endTime":776.1,"body":"psychopath is born a sociopath"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":776.1,"endTime":779.61,"body":"is made. That's one that's one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":776.1,"endTime":779.61,"body":"of the distinctions that kind of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":779.61,"endTime":783.36,"body":"makes some sense because the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":779.61,"endTime":783.36,"body":"person who's a sociopath might"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":783.36,"endTime":789.18,"body":"have had child abuse, neglect,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":783.36,"endTime":789.18,"body":"things like that, that they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":789.18,"endTime":792.45,"body":"reacting to. And they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":789.18,"endTime":792.45,"body":"developing that resentment and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":792.45,"endTime":796.62,"body":"that ability to harm others with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":792.45,"endTime":796.62,"body":"no remorse that is typical of a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":796.62,"endTime":801.93,"body":"psychopath. And for psychopaths,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":796.62,"endTime":801.93,"body":"we certainly have a lot of brain"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":803.7,"endTime":807.69,"body":"scans that tell us their brain"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":803.7,"endTime":807.69,"body":"structures are different. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":807.69,"endTime":810.66,"body":"they're born into this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":807.69,"endTime":810.66,"body":"condition, which doesn't make"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":810.66,"endTime":814.71,"body":"them first at all criminals,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":810.66,"endTime":814.71,"body":"doesn't make them serial killers"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":814.71,"endTime":818.13,"body":"or murderers by any stretch of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":814.71,"endTime":818.13,"body":"the imagination. Most are not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":818.13,"endTime":822.48,"body":"criminals, but they do have that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":818.13,"endTime":822.48,"body":"psychopathic condition of having"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":822.51,"endTime":827.82,"body":"very shallow emotions. No, no"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":822.51,"endTime":827.82,"body":"real connection, aside from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":827.82,"endTime":830.55,"body":"whatever serves their purpose"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":827.82,"endTime":830.55,"body":"because they're pretty"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":830.55,"endTime":835.02,"body":"narcissistic, egocentric. They"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":830.55,"endTime":835.02,"body":"don't have remorse for harming"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":835.02,"endTime":839.4,"body":"others, they tend to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":835.02,"endTime":839.4,"body":"manipulative and parasitic, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":839.61,"endTime":843.81,"body":"all the things that we use as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":839.61,"endTime":843.81,"body":"measures of psychopathy. But"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":843.81,"endTime":847.41,"body":"that doesn't necessarily make"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":843.81,"endTime":847.41,"body":"them criminals. They could just"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":847.65,"endTime":852.0,"body":"get in a relationship lie to you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":847.65,"endTime":852.0,"body":"with ease, take your resources,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":852.54,"endTime":856.23,"body":"break promises, things like"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":852.54,"endTime":856.23,"body":"that. They're not criminals, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":856.23,"endTime":857.82,"body":"they're still not fun to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":856.23,"endTime":857.82,"body":"with."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":858.3,"endTime":860.49,"body":"So how what"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":858.3,"endTime":860.49,"body":"percentage of the population are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":860.49,"endTime":863.55,"body":"we talking about would share"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":860.49,"endTime":863.55,"body":"that similar kind of brain scan?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":863.76,"endTime":866.04,"body":"If we looked at 100 people?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":867.21,"endTime":869.61,"body":"Robert"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":867.21,"endTime":869.61,"body":"hare who's the psychopathy, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":869.61,"endTime":875.31,"body":"premier psychopathy researcher"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":869.61,"endTime":875.31,"body":"says there's one in 100 I don't,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":875.37,"endTime":878.97,"body":"it could be in a different,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":875.37,"endTime":878.97,"body":"different occupations, you're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":878.97,"endTime":883.41,"body":"going to find it to be higher"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":878.97,"endTime":883.41,"body":"like CEOs, politicians, people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":883.41,"endTime":887.31,"body":"who the psychopaths tend to like"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":883.41,"endTime":887.31,"body":"power, they like money, they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":887.31,"endTime":891.39,"body":"like the things that are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":887.31,"endTime":891.39,"body":"exciting because they have low"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":891.39,"endTime":895.23,"body":"physiological arousal and this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":891.39,"endTime":895.23,"body":"this arouses them. This is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":895.23,"endTime":899.43,"body":"something that makes life into a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":895.23,"endTime":899.43,"body":"game. So you will find more of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":899.43,"endTime":903.57,"body":"them. In certain types of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":899.43,"endTime":903.57,"body":"professions than in others, they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":903.57,"endTime":908.91,"body":"don't tend tend to gravitate"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":903.57,"endTime":908.91,"body":"toward low key caring, self"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":909.27,"endTime":912.99,"body":"sacrificial types of things,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":909.27,"endTime":912.99,"body":"because that just doesn't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":912.99,"endTime":916.8,"body":"interest them unless they can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":912.99,"endTime":916.8,"body":"see a way to enrich themselves"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":916.8,"endTime":923.79,"body":"from it. So you're going to find"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":916.8,"endTime":923.79,"body":"that that 1% to be different in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":923.79,"endTime":928.86,"body":"different occupations, how they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":923.79,"endTime":928.86,"body":"come up with 1% I don't know I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":928.95,"endTime":931.23,"body":"I've never made any sense of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":928.95,"endTime":931.23,"body":"that personally."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":931.68,"endTime":934.17,"body":"But it's possible"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":931.68,"endTime":934.17,"body":"that there's a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":934.17,"endTime":937.35,"body":"that maybe have this kind of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":934.17,"endTime":937.35,"body":"predisposition, but they channel"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":937.35,"endTime":940.44,"body":"it and go into a more healthier"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":937.35,"endTime":940.44,"body":"route like it's not so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":940.47,"endTime":942.57,"body":"and also"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":940.47,"endTime":942.57,"body":"there's a theory called almost a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":942.57,"endTime":948.87,"body":"psychopath. So you're, you're on"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":942.57,"endTime":948.87,"body":"a continuum and you're closer to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":948.87,"endTime":952.8,"body":"the you know, one pole than the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":948.87,"endTime":952.8,"body":"other so you don't really quite"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":953.04,"endTime":956.76,"body":"come up on the high on the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":953.04,"endTime":956.76,"body":"psychopathy checklist to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":956.76,"endTime":959.88,"body":"diagnosed as a psychopath. But"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":956.76,"endTime":959.88,"body":"you're you're almost there."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":960.36,"endTime":965.4,"body":"Alright, so that gets finely"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":960.36,"endTime":965.4,"body":"nuanced. And, and certainly, we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":965.4,"endTime":969.24,"body":"have other personality issues"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":965.4,"endTime":969.24,"body":"like narcissistic personality"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":969.54,"endTime":973.62,"body":"disorder where they're highly"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":969.54,"endTime":973.62,"body":"narcissistic, bordering on"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":973.62,"endTime":978.51,"body":"psychopathic. They're, they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":973.62,"endTime":978.51,"body":"just, you know, Arrested"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":978.51,"endTime":984.36,"body":"Development, juvenile or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":978.51,"endTime":984.36,"body":"infantile types of people. That"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":984.36,"endTime":987.72,"body":"doesn't ascend, make them"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":984.36,"endTime":987.72,"body":"psychopaths. I like to use the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":987.72,"endTime":992.43,"body":"word psychopathic, which is more"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":987.72,"endTime":992.43,"body":"of an adjective to talk about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":992.43,"endTime":996.51,"body":"the kind of behavior we see,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":992.43,"endTime":996.51,"body":"especially if someone has not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":996.51,"endTime":1000.44,"body":"been formally diagnosed as a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":996.51,"endTime":1000.44,"body":"psychopath, such as Dennis Rader"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1000.53,"endTime":1004.16,"body":"never was formally diagnosed as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1000.53,"endTime":1004.16,"body":"a psychopath because nobody used"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1004.16,"endTime":1009.14,"body":"the psychopathy checklist. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1004.16,"endTime":1009.14,"body":"yet, does he exhibit many of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1009.14,"endTime":1013.16,"body":"these behaviors? Yes, he does."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1009.14,"endTime":1013.16,"body":"So he would, I would say he's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1013.16,"endTime":1018.59,"body":"psychopathic. And, you know, on"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1013.16,"endTime":1018.59,"body":"his bad days, because he likes"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1018.59,"endTime":1021.47,"body":"to talk about being a good"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1018.59,"endTime":1021.47,"body":"person who did some bad things."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1025.7,"endTime":1027.47,"body":"To friends on one day, you get"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1025.7,"endTime":1027.47,"body":"him on?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1027.589,"endTime":1030.199,"body":"Yeah. Well, you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1027.589,"endTime":1030.199,"body":"mentioned narcissism, that's an"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1030.199,"endTime":1033.529,"body":"interesting one, because you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1030.199,"endTime":1033.529,"body":"feel like it was our society"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1033.859,"endTime":1037.189,"body":"that is getting worse. Like that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1033.859,"endTime":1037.189,"body":"seems to be everybody wants to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1037.189,"endTime":1039.649,"body":"be an Instagram model,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1037.189,"endTime":1039.649,"body":"everybody's a tick tock star,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1039.739,"endTime":1041.659,"body":"doesn't mean that they're all"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1039.739,"endTime":1041.659,"body":"going to be psychopaths or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1041.659,"endTime":1044.209,"body":"serial killers. But it is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1041.659,"endTime":1044.209,"body":"something that it seems"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1044.209,"endTime":1046.399,"body":"concerning to me does that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1044.209,"endTime":1046.399,"body":"something is that something"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1046.399,"endTime":1047.089,"body":"that's concerning to you,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1047.089,"endTime":1049.249,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1047.089,"endTime":1049.249,"body":"narcissism is present in all of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1049.249,"endTime":1052.669,"body":"us, because it's a survival"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1049.249,"endTime":1052.669,"body":"mechanism, we are going to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1052.669,"endTime":1055.609,"body":"thinking about our own"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1052.669,"endTime":1055.609,"body":"preservation first and our own"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1055.609,"endTime":1059.599,"body":"interests first, no matter what,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1055.609,"endTime":1059.599,"body":"unless you have to rescue your"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1059.599,"endTime":1063.049,"body":"child or something like that."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1059.599,"endTime":1063.049,"body":"But typically, we're going to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1063.709,"endTime":1067.519,"body":"have our own perspective as our"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1063.709,"endTime":1067.519,"body":"first point into the world."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1067.579,"endTime":1071.809,"body":"That's, that's a, a degree of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1067.579,"endTime":1071.809,"body":"narcissism. It's not unhealthy."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1072.379,"endTime":1077.239,"body":"It gets unhealthy when it when"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1072.379,"endTime":1077.239,"body":"those people become that really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1077.239,"endTime":1080.839,"body":"believe they're the center of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1077.239,"endTime":1080.839,"body":"everything, and are the most"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1080.839,"endTime":1085.099,"body":"important person in the room and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1080.839,"endTime":1085.099,"body":"they should be treated, spent in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1085.099,"endTime":1092.089,"body":"a special way. They're entitled"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1085.099,"endTime":1092.089,"body":"to things. And yeah, our society"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1092.629,"endTime":1099.829,"body":"has grown to the point of really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1092.629,"endTime":1099.829,"body":"supporting that. Were those tick"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1099.829,"endTime":1102.709,"body":"talkers are becoming"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1099.829,"endTime":1102.709,"body":"influencers, and they're getting"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1102.709,"endTime":1107.179,"body":"vast amounts of gifts and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1102.709,"endTime":1107.179,"body":"special treatment and whatnot,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1107.179,"endTime":1112.399,"body":"but, you know, once they stop"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1107.179,"endTime":1112.399,"body":"being influencers, they take a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1112.399,"endTime":1116.479,"body":"big hard fall, because they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1112.399,"endTime":1116.479,"body":"not so special. And then you get"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1116.479,"endTime":1123.289,"body":"depression and suicide attempts"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1116.479,"endTime":1123.289,"body":"and, you know, nasty games with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1123.289,"endTime":1126.709,"body":"others trying to undermine them."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1123.289,"endTime":1126.709,"body":"And, you know, it's it's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1126.709,"endTime":1131.299,"body":"problem. And I think, I think if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1126.709,"endTime":1131.299,"body":"people really believe their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1131.299,"endTime":1135.919,"body":"narrative, and they're on these"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1131.299,"endTime":1135.919,"body":"various videos, and you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1135.919,"endTime":1139.819,"body":"websites where they are so very"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1135.919,"endTime":1139.819,"body":"important and entitled to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1139.819,"endTime":1142.309,"body":"special treatment, they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1139.819,"endTime":1142.309,"body":"setting themselves up."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1143.179,"endTime":1145.129,"body":"Really, so do you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1143.179,"endTime":1145.129,"body":"think that's going to get worse,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1145.129,"endTime":1148.249,"body":"as like, you're saying, like,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1145.129,"endTime":1148.249,"body":"when these tick tock stars when"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1148.249,"endTime":1151.549,"body":"they start to fall off and not"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1148.249,"endTime":1151.549,"body":"maybe not be as popular or they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1151.549,"endTime":1153.889,"body":"get older or whatever, then"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1151.549,"endTime":1153.889,"body":"they're gonna suffer some major"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1153.889,"endTime":1155.509,"body":"health problems, mental health"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1153.889,"endTime":1155.509,"body":"problems?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1155.66,"endTime":1157.46,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1155.66,"endTime":1157.46,"body":"they will. Yeah, because they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1157.46,"endTime":1162.02,"body":"don't, they're not being guided"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1157.46,"endTime":1162.02,"body":"in having any perspective on it."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1162.56,"endTime":1166.07,"body":"Those who have perspective on it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1162.56,"endTime":1166.07,"body":"fine. They know that this is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1166.07,"endTime":1169.04,"body":"something that's working for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1166.07,"endTime":1169.04,"body":"them right now. It's gonna be a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1169.04,"endTime":1172.52,"body":"fad, it's gonna last only so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1169.04,"endTime":1172.52,"body":"long. But you know, the pressure"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1172.52,"endTime":1176.99,"body":"is on really from from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1172.52,"endTime":1176.99,"body":"advertisers, they're the ones"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1176.99,"endTime":1180.26,"body":"who are looking for someone who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1176.99,"endTime":1180.26,"body":"make a difference, who sell"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1180.26,"endTime":1183.98,"body":"their product and, and bring in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1180.26,"endTime":1183.98,"body":"the money. And as long as that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1183.98,"endTime":1187.79,"body":"pressure is on, and it always"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1183.98,"endTime":1187.79,"body":"will be in our society, you're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1187.79,"endTime":1193.52,"body":"always going to have people set"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1187.79,"endTime":1193.52,"body":"up to, you know, be the face"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1193.97,"endTime":1198.62,"body":"that will bring in the funds,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1193.97,"endTime":1198.62,"body":"and those people could get used,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1198.65,"endTime":1202.43,"body":"exploited. and eventually dumped"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1198.65,"endTime":1202.43,"body":"and unless they have some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1202.43,"endTime":1206.24,"body":"perspective on it, where they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1202.43,"endTime":1206.24,"body":"have some an emotionally healthy"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1206.24,"endTime":1210.62,"body":"approach to it, I think they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1206.24,"endTime":1210.62,"body":"going to be very surprised, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1210.65,"endTime":1212.99,"body":"this isn't gonna last their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1210.65,"endTime":1212.99,"body":"whole lives."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1213.29,"endTime":1216.05,"body":"So the emotional"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1213.29,"endTime":1216.05,"body":"healthy perspective would just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1216.05,"endTime":1219.05,"body":"be to maybe be grateful and take"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1216.05,"endTime":1219.05,"body":"it like one with a grain of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1219.05,"endTime":1221.63,"body":"salt, knowing that this is just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1219.05,"endTime":1221.63,"body":"something that's fleeting and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1221.63,"endTime":1222.74,"body":"probably won't last forever."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1223.13,"endTime":1224.69,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1223.13,"endTime":1224.69,"body":"And if it does last forever,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1224.69,"endTime":1227.06,"body":"you're so much the better,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1224.69,"endTime":1227.06,"body":"right? Because you weren't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1227.06,"endTime":1232.67,"body":"expecting it to and, and it's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1227.06,"endTime":1232.67,"body":"nice surprise. But more often"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1232.67,"endTime":1237.02,"body":"than not, it's not been the last"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1232.67,"endTime":1237.02,"body":"and you're you shouldn't be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1237.02,"endTime":1243.08,"body":"prepared. So yeah, emotionally"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1237.02,"endTime":1243.08,"body":"healthy is recognizing it as a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1243.08,"endTime":1246.65,"body":"pocket of your life, and not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1243.08,"endTime":1246.65,"body":"your whole identity."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1247.19,"endTime":1249.65,"body":"Okay, yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1247.19,"endTime":1249.65,"body":"a fascinating little tangent"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1249.65,"endTime":1252.35,"body":"that we just I just, that's such"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1249.65,"endTime":1252.35,"body":"an interesting part of society"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1252.35,"endTime":1255.23,"body":"right now, I felt like is with"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1252.35,"endTime":1255.23,"body":"the narcissism. So that's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1255.23,"endTime":1257.09,"body":"interesting to hear your take on"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1255.23,"endTime":1257.09,"body":"that. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1257.33,"endTime":1259.01,"body":"And, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1257.33,"endTime":1259.01,"body":"mean, you are seeing it."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1259.01,"endTime":1262.28,"body":"Somebody asked me today, what's,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1259.01,"endTime":1262.28,"body":"you know, I started all this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1262.28,"endTime":1266.42,"body":"stuff back in the 90s. And when"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1262.28,"endTime":1266.42,"body":"wasn't popular to be in true"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1266.42,"endTime":1272.48,"body":"crime. And that was considered"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1266.42,"endTime":1272.48,"body":"the ghetto of writing. And now"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1272.48,"endTime":1276.17,"body":"it's very, very big. And someone"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1272.48,"endTime":1276.17,"body":"asked me why you know, what has"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1276.17,"endTime":1279.71,"body":"changed. And I podcasting is one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1276.17,"endTime":1279.71,"body":"of those things that has"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1279.71,"endTime":1285.32,"body":"changed. People are jockeying"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1279.71,"endTime":1285.32,"body":"for being the one to solve the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1285.32,"endTime":1290.9,"body":"unsolved crime, or identify and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1285.32,"endTime":1290.9,"body":"catch the killer and, or bring a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1290.9,"endTime":1294.83,"body":"new tape to an old crime. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1290.9,"endTime":1294.83,"body":"they're jockeying for position."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1294.83,"endTime":1298.76,"body":"Now, some sent many of them get"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1294.83,"endTime":1298.76,"body":"along and support each other,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1298.76,"endTime":1301.79,"body":"but some are very competitive,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1298.76,"endTime":1301.79,"body":"and they want the audience"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1301.79,"endTime":1306.17,"body":"share, or they think somebody"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1301.79,"endTime":1306.17,"body":"else's narrative is, is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1306.8,"endTime":1310.04,"body":"incorrect. And they, they want"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1306.8,"endTime":1310.04,"body":"to be the ones to replace that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1310.04,"endTime":1314.06,"body":"narrative. So you are finding a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1310.04,"endTime":1314.06,"body":"lot of competition right now in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1314.06,"endTime":1316.82,"body":"the podcasting world, in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1314.06,"endTime":1316.82,"body":"writing world, in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1316.82,"endTime":1320.66,"body":"documentary world, anywhere,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1316.82,"endTime":1320.66,"body":"there's entertainment and an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1320.66,"endTime":1323.9,"body":"audience to be had, you're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1320.66,"endTime":1323.9,"body":"finding a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1323.93,"endTime":1329.42,"body":"jockeying for to be the one. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1323.93,"endTime":1329.42,"body":"this becomes a problem. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1329.42,"endTime":1332.6,"body":"actually wrote a blog about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1329.42,"endTime":1332.6,"body":"this, where it's, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1332.6,"endTime":1340.1,"body":"called with Yadi. It's W W. YSI,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1332.6,"endTime":1340.1,"body":"ATR, what you see is all there"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1340.1,"endTime":1346.34,"body":"is, and you're getting people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1340.1,"endTime":1346.34,"body":"that are trying to solve these"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1346.4,"endTime":1357.41,"body":"cold cases, or link cases, with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1346.4,"endTime":1357.41,"body":"limited ideas and logic. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1357.41,"endTime":1361.13,"body":"when they can do it, they think"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1357.41,"endTime":1361.13,"body":"they've found the truth. And now"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1361.13,"endTime":1366.8,"body":"they jump out there as the one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1361.13,"endTime":1366.8,"body":"who has solved this crime. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1366.8,"endTime":1371.21,"body":"that's why we have 300 Jack the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1366.8,"endTime":1371.21,"body":"Ripper suspects and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1371.21,"endTime":1375.74,"body":"half a dozen or more Zodiac"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1371.21,"endTime":1375.74,"body":"suspects. And because each"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1375.74,"endTime":1379.04,"body":"person owns the crime, because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1375.74,"endTime":1379.04,"body":"they think they've solved it,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1379.04,"endTime":1383.66,"body":"but what, but they've used only"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1379.04,"endTime":1383.66,"body":"what they have, and it's not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1383.66,"endTime":1387.08,"body":"necessarily the whole story,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1383.66,"endTime":1387.08,"body":"because we're constantly"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1387.08,"endTime":1388.67,"body":"discovering new things."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1389.06,"endTime":1391.58,"body":"So is that a bad"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1389.06,"endTime":1391.58,"body":"thing? Or is that a good thing"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1391.58,"endTime":1395.69,"body":"to for people to be thinking?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1391.58,"endTime":1395.69,"body":"And have you think they need to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1395.72,"endTime":1399.02,"body":"be aware"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1395.72,"endTime":1399.02,"body":"of it. And I wish police"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1399.02,"endTime":1401.9,"body":"officers were aware of it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1399.02,"endTime":1401.9,"body":"because they do similar things"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1401.9,"endTime":1404.75,"body":"where they, they jump to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1401.9,"endTime":1404.75,"body":"conclusions, they want to get a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1404.75,"endTime":1408.5,"body":"case solved quickly. They think"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1404.75,"endTime":1408.5,"body":"that they've collected a certain"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1408.5,"endTime":1411.14,"body":"amount of evidence, and that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1408.5,"endTime":1411.14,"body":"all there is to collect. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1411.14,"endTime":1414.98,"body":"that's all there is to the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1411.14,"endTime":1414.98,"body":"story. That's not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1414.98,"endTime":1422.27,"body":"true. So I think, I think the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1414.98,"endTime":1422.27,"body":"cognitive error with the rd what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1422.27,"endTime":1428.36,"body":"you see is all there is, is a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1422.27,"endTime":1428.36,"body":"problem. But it's good for us to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1428.36,"endTime":1432.05,"body":"know about it. And it's good for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1428.36,"endTime":1432.05,"body":"people who want to think their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1432.05,"endTime":1436.85,"body":"way through these crimes, to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1432.05,"endTime":1436.85,"body":"alert to the potential that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1436.85,"endTime":1440.81,"body":"they're falling into this trap."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1436.85,"endTime":1440.81,"body":"And I think you saw a very good"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1440.81,"endTime":1444.71,"body":"documentary, and that was the I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1440.81,"endTime":1444.71,"body":"think it's called crime scene,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1444.71,"endTime":1446.45,"body":"the Hotel Cecil or something"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1446.51,"endTime":1449.69,"body":"like that, where"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1446.51,"endTime":1449.69,"body":"it's a hotel, I was on my show"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1449.69,"endTime":1450.59,"body":"from it. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1450.59,"endTime":1454.4,"body":"as you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1450.59,"endTime":1454.4,"body":"saw all these two cars, crime"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1454.4,"endTime":1458.0,"body":"junkies got into the fray as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1454.4,"endTime":1458.0,"body":"what really happened there. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1458.0,"endTime":1461.54,"body":"they identified a suspect and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1458.0,"endTime":1461.54,"body":"they harassed that person, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1461.54,"endTime":1465.71,"body":"they knew that she had been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1461.54,"endTime":1465.71,"body":"murdered. And that person was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1465.71,"endTime":1469.19,"body":"driven almost to the point of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1465.71,"endTime":1469.19,"body":"suicide. Turns out totally"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1469.19,"endTime":1472.1,"body":"innocent. He had nothing to do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1469.19,"endTime":1472.1,"body":"with it. But they had worked"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1472.1,"endTime":1477.17,"body":"their way into logic, and what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1472.1,"endTime":1477.17,"body":"has to be true based on the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1477.2,"endTime":1482.39,"body":"evidence, all of that in air"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1477.2,"endTime":1482.39,"body":"quotes. And they and they were"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1482.39,"endTime":1483.62,"body":"all wrong. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1483.92,"endTime":1486.89,"body":"But don't you think"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1483.92,"endTime":1486.89,"body":"sometimes it is good for these"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1486.92,"endTime":1490.76,"body":"podcasters or authors and things"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1486.92,"endTime":1490.76,"body":"to shine a light on cases that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1490.76,"endTime":1493.1,"body":"were kind of ignored like the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1490.76,"endTime":1493.1,"body":"Golden State killer that was a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1493.1,"endTime":1496.58,"body":"patent Oswald's wife, kind of I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1493.1,"endTime":1496.58,"body":"think she wrote the book or I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1496.58,"endTime":1498.32,"body":"can't I think it was a book."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1496.58,"endTime":1498.32,"body":"That"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1499.7,"endTime":1502.4,"body":"was It"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1499.7,"endTime":1502.4,"body":"was Paul holes who did that? I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1502.4,"endTime":1505.28,"body":"don't want to, she brought"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1502.4,"endTime":1505.28,"body":"attention to it. And she brought"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1505.28,"endTime":1509.18,"body":"attention to the potential that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1505.28,"endTime":1509.18,"body":"the of these three different"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1509.18,"endTime":1513.86,"body":"crime sprees were linked. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1509.18,"endTime":1513.86,"body":"And she named the Golden State"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1513.86,"endTime":1517.37,"body":"killer. But it was really the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1513.86,"endTime":1517.37,"body":"work done by Paul holes that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1517.4,"endTime":1522.59,"body":"that identified DeAngelo as the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1517.4,"endTime":1522.59,"body":"killer was the genealogical DNA"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1522.59,"endTime":1525.2,"body":"evidence, and he took a chance"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1522.59,"endTime":1525.2,"body":"on something that had never been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1525.2,"endTime":1528.38,"body":"tested before. So he's really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1525.2,"endTime":1528.38,"body":"got to get the credit for that."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1528.53,"endTime":1532.58,"body":"But no, But your point is, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1528.53,"endTime":1532.58,"body":"well taken is the other end of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1532.58,"endTime":1536.87,"body":"the spectrum of let's keep the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1532.58,"endTime":1536.87,"body":"light on these cases. So these"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1536.87,"endTime":1540.89,"body":"victims don't get forgotten. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1536.87,"endTime":1540.89,"body":"that somebody's there and in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1540.95,"endTime":1545.51,"body":"many cases, because the light is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1540.95,"endTime":1545.51,"body":"on the case, new evidence"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1545.51,"endTime":1548.81,"body":"surfaces, somebody broke up with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1545.51,"endTime":1548.81,"body":"their boyfriend, and now they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1548.81,"endTime":1555.14,"body":"ready to take on on them, or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1548.81,"endTime":1555.14,"body":"girlfriend. Somebody said, Well,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1555.14,"endTime":1557.84,"body":"the police never asked me this,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1555.14,"endTime":1557.84,"body":"but I do know about blah, blah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1557.84,"endTime":1563.0,"body":"blah. So new things surface new"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1557.84,"endTime":1563.0,"body":"technologies can be used to look"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1563.0,"endTime":1568.28,"body":"at older cases. And so yes, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1563.0,"endTime":1568.28,"body":"podcast world is helping with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1568.28,"endTime":1568.64,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1569.179,"endTime":1571.009,"body":"That's all I try to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1569.179,"endTime":1571.009,"body":"do is just trying to light I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1571.009,"endTime":1572.419,"body":"don't I'm not trying to solve"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1571.009,"endTime":1572.419,"body":"anything"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1572.929,"endTime":1576.109,"body":"I've"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1572.929,"endTime":1576.109,"body":"been I've been getting, like,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1576.109,"endTime":1579.079,"body":"what I'm trying to say is to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1576.109,"endTime":1579.079,"body":"your original point about the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1579.079,"endTime":1585.769,"body":"tip top world and narcissism is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1579.079,"endTime":1585.769,"body":"what's what can be a great tool"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1586.399,"endTime":1591.769,"body":"also nurtures some dark"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1586.399,"endTime":1591.769,"body":"mentality where you get"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1591.769,"endTime":1597.049,"body":"competition, you get people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1591.769,"endTime":1597.049,"body":"jumping in to harass suspects,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1597.919,"endTime":1603.499,"body":"like with the Cecil Hotel case,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1597.919,"endTime":1603.499,"body":"you get people deciding that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1603.499,"endTime":1607.249,"body":"they own the case and shoving"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1603.499,"endTime":1607.249,"body":"everybody else out. So as an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1607.249,"endTime":1613.399,"body":"every human endeavor, you'll get"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1607.249,"endTime":1613.399,"body":"the noble reasonable things, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1613.399,"endTime":1617.119,"body":"you'll get the darker nastiness."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1617.21,"endTime":1620.03,"body":"One, it seems like"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1617.21,"endTime":1620.03,"body":"the most outlandish things will"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1620.03,"endTime":1622.67,"body":"get the biggest press. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1620.03,"endTime":1622.67,"body":"you had like you had Alex Jones"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1622.67,"endTime":1627.17,"body":"saying Sandy Hook was a was a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1622.67,"endTime":1627.17,"body":"total hoax. And they mean"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1627.17,"endTime":1629.75,"body":"nothing, just the press then"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1627.17,"endTime":1629.75,"body":"people knocking on the doors of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1629.75,"endTime":1632.36,"body":"the victims, I mean, these"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1629.75,"endTime":1632.36,"body":"terrible things. So yeah, you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1632.36,"endTime":1635.15,"body":"got to be careful what you say"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1632.36,"endTime":1635.15,"body":"that I think that was just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1635.18,"endTime":1638.45,"body":"clearly for attention and to be"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1635.18,"endTime":1638.45,"body":"outlandish. And unfortunately,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1638.45,"endTime":1640.97,"body":"it seems it's outlandish stuff"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1638.45,"endTime":1640.97,"body":"goes to the top of these"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1640.97,"endTime":1643.58,"body":"algorithms on social media and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1640.97,"endTime":1643.58,"body":"such. It"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1643.58,"endTime":1647.0,"body":"does."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1643.58,"endTime":1647.0,"body":"And it also raises emotions in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1647.0,"endTime":1652.28,"body":"ways that attract people, they,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1647.0,"endTime":1652.28,"body":"and it seems to express what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1652.28,"endTime":1656.24,"body":"they already had a suspicion"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1652.28,"endTime":1656.24,"body":"about. And now somebody has put"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1656.24,"endTime":1660.44,"body":"it into words. And yeah, that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1656.24,"endTime":1660.44,"body":"makes sense. Most conspiracies"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1660.44,"endTime":1664.01,"body":"operate off of logic. People"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1660.44,"endTime":1664.01,"body":"think logic is the same thing as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1664.01,"endTime":1667.85,"body":"truth. It isn't just a tool to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1664.01,"endTime":1667.85,"body":"put together your thoughts to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1667.85,"endTime":1671.99,"body":"make them sound coherent. But if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1667.85,"endTime":1671.99,"body":"you start with false premises,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1672.11,"endTime":1675.95,"body":"you'll end with false premises."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1672.11,"endTime":1675.95,"body":"And no matter how much logic you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1675.95,"endTime":1680.81,"body":"use, people don't seem to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1675.95,"endTime":1680.81,"body":"understand that logic, it feels"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1680.81,"endTime":1685.19,"body":"good to make a logical case. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1680.81,"endTime":1685.19,"body":"it's the truth. That's how they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1685.19,"endTime":1689.12,"body":"understand it. That's not the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1685.19,"endTime":1689.12,"body":"case. That's and we struggle"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1689.12,"endTime":1693.47,"body":"with that as college professors,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1689.12,"endTime":1693.47,"body":"trying to get people to do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1693.47,"endTime":1697.43,"body":"critical thinking that just"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1693.47,"endTime":1697.43,"body":"because you can make a logical"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1697.43,"endTime":1699.05,"body":"case doesn't mean you're right."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1700.22,"endTime":1703.04,"body":"So how, explain"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1700.22,"endTime":1703.04,"body":"that because you're you're you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1703.04,"endTime":1707.51,"body":"have a PhD in philosophy and you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1703.04,"endTime":1707.51,"body":"taught logic. So explain that."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1707.75,"endTime":1710.21,"body":"The critical thinking. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1707.75,"endTime":1710.21,"body":"obviously can't tell me"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1710.21,"endTime":1712.67,"body":"everything, but like a basic"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1710.21,"endTime":1712.67,"body":"critical thinking, how can"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1712.67,"endTime":1716.6,"body":"people distinguish between BS"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1712.67,"endTime":1716.6,"body":"conspiracy theory, and some"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1716.6,"endTime":1720.26,"body":"conspiracy theories, I think are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1716.6,"endTime":1720.26,"body":"interesting and fun. But I know"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1720.29,"endTime":1722.12,"body":"that they're conspiracy"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1720.29,"endTime":1722.12,"body":"theories, and there's the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1722.18,"endTime":1725.15,"body":"there's no conclusive evidence"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1722.18,"endTime":1725.15,"body":"that they're true."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1725.99,"endTime":1727.85,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1725.99,"endTime":1727.85,"body":"unfortunately, we're in an age"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1727.85,"endTime":1732.74,"body":"where evidence doesn't matter."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1727.85,"endTime":1732.74,"body":"There are alternative facts,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1732.74,"endTime":1738.44,"body":"right, right. In Motion"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1732.74,"endTime":1738.44,"body":"outweighs thinking your way"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1738.53,"endTime":1741.95,"body":"through the evidence in motion"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1738.53,"endTime":1741.95,"body":"outweighs it. And I've heard"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1741.95,"endTime":1744.98,"body":"politicians say that the emotion"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1741.95,"endTime":1744.98,"body":"the emotion part is more"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1744.98,"endTime":1749.51,"body":"important. It's not, that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1744.98,"endTime":1749.51,"body":"where we get misled more often"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1749.51,"endTime":1753.62,"body":"than not. But then you they'll"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1749.51,"endTime":1753.62,"body":"hear me say something. Well,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1753.62,"endTime":1759.29,"body":"logic is not the key to truth,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1753.62,"endTime":1759.29,"body":"it is a is a method and it can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1759.29,"endTime":1762.98,"body":"still lead you in the wrong"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1759.29,"endTime":1762.98,"body":"direction. And so they're going"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1762.98,"endTime":1766.43,"body":"to hook on to that. While it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1762.98,"endTime":1766.43,"body":"not about making a logical case,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1766.49,"endTime":1771.02,"body":"either. No, but it is about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1766.49,"endTime":1771.02,"body":"facts. And there are facts that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1771.02,"endTime":1775.16,"body":"you can bring to bear to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1771.02,"endTime":1775.16,"body":"corroborate things. But"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1775.16,"endTime":1780.2,"body":"sometimes those facts can be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1775.16,"endTime":1780.2,"body":"slippery, in terms of they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1780.2,"endTime":1783.77,"body":"ambiguous so you can take"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1780.2,"endTime":1783.77,"body":"several interpretations off of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1783.77,"endTime":1788.18,"body":"them. That's how conspiracies"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1783.77,"endTime":1788.18,"body":"work is they'll start with a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1788.21,"endTime":1792.44,"body":"with kernels that people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1788.21,"endTime":1792.44,"body":"understand that are familiar to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1792.44,"endTime":1797.87,"body":"them. And they'll build their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1792.44,"endTime":1797.87,"body":"big idea from that. And they'll"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1797.87,"endTime":1803.21,"body":"keep going back to the kernel."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1797.87,"endTime":1803.21,"body":"To reinforce, reinforce, we know"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1803.21,"endTime":1809.24,"body":"this to be true. And out of that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1803.21,"endTime":1809.24,"body":"springs, this other thinking is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1809.27,"endTime":1812.69,"body":"it's hard to I mean, I don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1809.27,"endTime":1812.69,"body":"want to name any particular"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1812.69,"endTime":1819.8,"body":"conspiracy, because I want to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1812.69,"endTime":1819.8,"body":"live right. But I think you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1819.8,"endTime":1824.21,"body":"don't have to look very far to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1819.8,"endTime":1824.21,"body":"see how how absolutely grandiose"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1824.21,"endTime":1828.74,"body":"they can get and, and, and the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1824.21,"endTime":1828.74,"body":"emotions there to keep it in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1828.74,"endTime":1832.13,"body":"place. And you get one person"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1828.74,"endTime":1832.13,"body":"after and I have friends who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1832.13,"endTime":1834.56,"body":"believe some of these things,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1832.13,"endTime":1834.56,"body":"and the only thing I can do is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1834.56,"endTime":1836.51,"body":"go wow, wow."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1837.11,"endTime":1839.51,"body":"What about your"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1837.11,"endTime":1839.51,"body":"I'll give you an example to get"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1839.51,"endTime":1841.97,"body":"your take on this one the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1839.51,"endTime":1841.97,"body":"staircase? Have you seen that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1841.97,"endTime":1844.1,"body":"new? I mean, there's like three"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1841.97,"endTime":1844.1,"body":"documentary, I think there's the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1844.1,"endTime":1846.89,"body":"real documentary. And then"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1844.1,"endTime":1846.89,"body":"there's the, the acting one that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1846.89,"endTime":1849.38,"body":"they just came out on Netflix."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1846.89,"endTime":1849.38,"body":"And now they're saying there was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1849.38,"endTime":1852.5,"body":"this this theory of A, was it a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1849.38,"endTime":1852.5,"body":"bird or a bat? Or?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1854.87,"endTime":1857.06,"body":"That has"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1854.87,"endTime":1857.06,"body":"always been what is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1857.06,"endTime":1860.06,"body":"your case? I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1857.06,"endTime":1860.06,"body":"that guy seems like he killed"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1860.06,"endTime":1862.4,"body":"her. Like, it seems black and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1860.06,"endTime":1862.4,"body":"white to me. And there was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1862.4,"endTime":1864.35,"body":"blood. It's not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1864.38,"endTime":1867.71,"body":"it's no."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1864.38,"endTime":1867.71,"body":"And also that what you call the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1867.71,"endTime":1872.0,"body":"real one was made by a person as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1867.71,"endTime":1872.0,"body":"I understand it having an affair"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1872.0,"endTime":1875.48,"body":"with him. Right, you know, how"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1872.0,"endTime":1875.48,"body":"real is there's emotion?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1876.23,"endTime":1882.26,"body":"There's, there's bias in that?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1876.23,"endTime":1882.26,"body":"Yeah, inevitably. So whatever"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1882.26,"endTime":1887.72,"body":"the real one is, who knows, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1882.26,"endTime":1887.72,"body":"there always was the owl theory."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1888.23,"endTime":1891.89,"body":"They just did not give credence"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1888.23,"endTime":1891.89,"body":"to it, because they thought so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1891.89,"endTime":1897.41,"body":"what there's an owl feather."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1891.89,"endTime":1897.41,"body":"What does that mean? But I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1897.41,"endTime":1900.08,"body":"actually am glad somebody kind"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1897.41,"endTime":1900.08,"body":"of picked up on that one."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1900.08,"endTime":1903.95,"body":"Because that was that those"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1900.08,"endTime":1903.95,"body":"kinds of interesting, unusual"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1903.95,"endTime":1906.89,"body":"theory, and she didn't have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1903.95,"endTime":1906.89,"body":"marks in her scalp that were"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1906.89,"endTime":1912.83,"body":"like a claw hallmarks that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1906.89,"endTime":1912.83,"body":"really weren't explained by her"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1912.83,"endTime":1915.92,"body":"hitting the stairs the way they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1912.83,"endTime":1915.92,"body":"went. And we do know that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1915.92,"endTime":1918.65,"body":"several people in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1915.92,"endTime":1918.65,"body":"prosecution team, one of them"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1918.65,"endTime":1922.67,"body":"lied about his experience in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1918.65,"endTime":1922.67,"body":"evidence that he did. So we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1922.67,"endTime":1925.34,"body":"know. So he's out of the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1922.67,"endTime":1925.34,"body":"picture. Another one's lied"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1925.34,"endTime":1929.06,"body":"about his credentials, so he's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1925.34,"endTime":1929.06,"body":"out of the picture. And the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1929.09,"endTime":1933.26,"body":"coroner, there are all kinds of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1929.09,"endTime":1933.26,"body":"issues with her, you know, so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1933.26,"endTime":1937.61,"body":"when you start to pick to pick"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1933.26,"endTime":1937.61,"body":"apart that, that idea, or you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1937.61,"endTime":1940.94,"body":"know, the theory that they had,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1937.61,"endTime":1940.94,"body":"and you pick apart some of their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1940.94,"endTime":1945.83,"body":"so called experts, whoa, that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1940.94,"endTime":1945.83,"body":"there's a problem with that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1945.83,"endTime":1950.3,"body":"case, no doubt about it isn't as"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1945.83,"endTime":1950.3,"body":"simple as it seems. And in part"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1950.3,"endTime":1953.15,"body":"because of the way it was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1950.3,"endTime":1953.15,"body":"investigated and reconstructed."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1953.48,"endTime":1958.37,"body":"Now, I happen to know the people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1953.48,"endTime":1958.37,"body":"on the defense side who the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1958.37,"endTime":1962.15,"body":"criminalists who are involved,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1958.37,"endTime":1962.15,"body":"and some of the what they did in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1962.15,"endTime":1965.57,"body":"their lab and whatnot. And they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1962.15,"endTime":1965.57,"body":"did find flaws with the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1965.57,"endTime":1969.86,"body":"prosecutors idea they did show,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1965.57,"endTime":1969.86,"body":"but the jury was invested"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1969.86,"endTime":1974.9,"body":"emotionally, anti this man"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1969.86,"endTime":1974.9,"body":"having affairs with men who's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1974.9,"endTime":1978.8,"body":"married and all that. So there's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1974.9,"endTime":1978.8,"body":"no getting past that. I don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1978.8,"endTime":1981.35,"body":"care how good of a case you make"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1978.8,"endTime":1981.35,"body":"with your evidence. There's no"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1981.35,"endTime":1985.16,"body":"getting past entrenched bias and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1981.35,"endTime":1985.16,"body":"emotion. So it's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1985.16,"endTime":1988.64,"body":"more problems with"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1985.16,"endTime":1988.64,"body":"the case and proving it rather"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1988.64,"endTime":1989.57,"body":"than B."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1989.96,"endTime":1993.41,"body":"Sides."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1989.96,"endTime":1993.41,"body":"Yeah, both sides. Definitely. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1993.41,"endTime":1996.71,"body":"I like I haven't seen the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1993.41,"endTime":1996.71,"body":"scripted series. I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":1996.71,"endTime":1997.37,"body":"destroy the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1997.37,"endTime":2001.57,"body":"happiness. Colin"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1997.37,"endTime":2001.57,"body":"Firth is amazing. Yeah. And our"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2001.57,"endTime":2004.24,"body":"theory"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2001.57,"endTime":2004.24,"body":"is interesting. And that was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2004.24,"endTime":2007.78,"body":"part of it. Right away. There"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2004.24,"endTime":2007.78,"body":"was somebody who, who wrote an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2007.78,"endTime":2012.34,"body":"entire treatise about the owl."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2007.78,"endTime":2012.34,"body":"But it was ignored at the time."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2012.34,"endTime":2012.67,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2012.88,"endTime":2014.77,"body":"No, I mean, I had"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2012.88,"endTime":2014.77,"body":"to laugh at some of the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2014.77,"endTime":2018.43,"body":"recreations where she slept like"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2014.77,"endTime":2018.43,"body":"eight times and hits her. I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2018.43,"endTime":2020.26,"body":"mean, it was it seemed a little"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2018.43,"endTime":2020.26,"body":"silly, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2020.56,"endTime":2022.75,"body":"I have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2020.56,"endTime":2022.75,"body":"the crime scene photos. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2022.75,"endTime":2027.46,"body":"telling you, there is a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2022.75,"endTime":2027.46,"body":"blood for the scenario that the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2027.46,"endTime":2032.74,"body":"prosecutor built and his blood"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2027.46,"endTime":2032.74,"body":"expert, hardly tested. So that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2032.74,"endTime":2033.34,"body":"a problem."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2033.76,"endTime":2036.52,"body":"Yeah. And that's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2033.76,"endTime":2036.52,"body":"what you that's what you do you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2036.52,"endTime":2039.49,"body":"look at a lot of these things"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2036.52,"endTime":2039.49,"body":"and try to figure out what"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2039.49,"endTime":2040.57,"body":"happened and and I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2040.57,"endTime":2044.41,"body":"have my"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2040.57,"endTime":2044.41,"body":"students do it. Oh, okay. We set"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2044.41,"endTime":2049.48,"body":"up crime scene scenarios and the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2044.41,"endTime":2049.48,"body":"red herrings are there the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2049.72,"endTime":2053.38,"body":"evidence is set, they have to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2049.72,"endTime":2053.38,"body":"not just observe, but think"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2053.38,"endTime":2059.14,"body":"about who they are as observers,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2053.38,"endTime":2059.14,"body":"psychologically. What are they?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2059.17,"endTime":2061.87,"body":"Are they the type of person who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2059.17,"endTime":2061.87,"body":"has a high need for closure, for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2061.87,"endTime":2065.11,"body":"example, so they'll jump to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2061.87,"endTime":2065.11,"body":"conclusions right away? Are they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2065.11,"endTime":2069.97,"body":"the kind of person who will look"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2065.11,"endTime":2069.97,"body":"at things and in their spotlight"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2069.97,"endTime":2074.71,"body":"of focus will not see other"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2069.97,"endTime":2074.71,"body":"things? Like, for example, I had"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2074.71,"endTime":2079.3,"body":"one where there was a guard dog"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2074.71,"endTime":2079.3,"body":"in the scene. This is a real"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2079.36,"endTime":2085.18,"body":"case. The dog was was locked up"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2079.36,"endTime":2085.18,"body":"in the garage. So even though"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2085.18,"endTime":2089.65,"body":"the family was afraid, they kept"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2085.18,"endTime":2089.65,"body":"their guard dog locked up. And I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2089.65,"endTime":2093.07,"body":"had two of them went through the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2089.65,"endTime":2093.07,"body":"whole house and they go so the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2093.07,"endTime":2097.9,"body":"dog ran away. The dog is right"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2093.07,"endTime":2097.9,"body":"there. It was a big step to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2097.9,"endTime":2102.94,"body":"Rottweiler right there Right,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2097.9,"endTime":2102.94,"body":"right, if they didn't see it, it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2102.94,"endTime":2106.42,"body":"already assumed the dog ran"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2102.94,"endTime":2106.42,"body":"away. And so they did not see"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2106.42,"endTime":2111.22,"body":"right in front of them. So I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2106.42,"endTime":2111.22,"body":"talk a lot about the the quirks"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2111.25,"endTime":2115.24,"body":"of observation and of cognition,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2111.25,"endTime":2115.24,"body":"the cognitive errors, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2115.78,"endTime":2119.62,"body":"psychological states that can be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2115.78,"endTime":2119.62,"body":"part of an investigator and an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2119.62,"endTime":2124.84,"body":"investigator does not know"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2119.62,"endTime":2124.84,"body":"themselves. They will miss"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2124.84,"endTime":2129.25,"body":"they'll have blind spots and the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2124.84,"endTime":2129.25,"body":"way they approach a crime, they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2129.25,"endTime":2133.48,"body":"might jump to conclusions and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2129.25,"endTime":2133.48,"body":"fail to see that some of the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2133.48,"endTime":2137.44,"body":"evidence is there, they might"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2133.48,"endTime":2137.44,"body":"have confirmation bias and only"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2137.44,"endTime":2141.04,"body":"see what works with the theory."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2137.44,"endTime":2141.04,"body":"They're forming the hypothesis"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2141.04,"endTime":2145.42,"body":"they're forming. That's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2141.04,"endTime":2145.42,"body":"problem. And many cases have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2145.42,"endTime":2149.11,"body":"gone off the rails for that, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2145.42,"endTime":2149.11,"body":"innocent people convicted."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2149.71,"endTime":2151.81,"body":"That's not a good"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2149.71,"endTime":2151.81,"body":"thing. I'd be a terrible juror"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2151.84,"endTime":2158.83,"body":"because I almost always think"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2151.84,"endTime":2158.83,"body":"the person's guilty. Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2158.83,"endTime":2161.02,"body":"don't know. Like, I just I watch"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2158.83,"endTime":2161.02,"body":"a lot of Forensic Files. I'm"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2161.02,"endTime":2163.42,"body":"like, Look, they got the blood"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2161.02,"endTime":2163.42,"body":"splatter. They got the DNA, like"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2163.42,"endTime":2165.58,"body":"this is an open and shut case."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2163.42,"endTime":2165.58,"body":"But I'm sure yeah, there's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2165.58,"endTime":2167.59,"body":"little things like that."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2167.77,"endTime":2169.33,"body":"Even"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2167.77,"endTime":2169.33,"body":"Forensic Files. I mean, I've"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2169.33,"endTime":2173.17,"body":"done stuff with them. And yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2169.33,"endTime":2173.17,"body":"it's wrong on some of the cases."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2175.24,"endTime":2176.8,"body":"One of them"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2175.24,"endTime":2176.8,"body":"apparently, that they were"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2176.89,"endTime":2179.2,"body":"because they said the blood"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2176.89,"endTime":2179.2,"body":"splatter on that one, that there"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2179.2,"endTime":2182.95,"body":"was no way he had been hitting"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2179.2,"endTime":2182.95,"body":"for the splatter to come on his"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2182.95,"endTime":2186.4,"body":"shorts like that. But I guess"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2182.95,"endTime":2186.4,"body":"maybe they were wrong."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2187.0,"endTime":2188.47,"body":"They"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2187.0,"endTime":2188.47,"body":"couldn't be wrong if they did"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2188.47,"endTime":2192.7,"body":"not do the testing of the blood"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2188.47,"endTime":2192.7,"body":"on the wall. And that's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2192.7,"endTime":2196.33,"body":"problem. Yeah, you can't just"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2192.7,"endTime":2196.33,"body":"make assumptions by looking at"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2196.33,"endTime":2199.9,"body":"it, you have to do some testing."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2196.33,"endTime":2199.9,"body":"And they and I think as Dwayne"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2199.9,"endTime":2203.77,"body":"deburr, I think it was his name"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2199.9,"endTime":2203.77,"body":"didn't test even though he"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2203.77,"endTime":2207.07,"body":"claimed to have done so. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2203.77,"endTime":2207.07,"body":"then it turned out other cases"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2207.07,"endTime":2208.57,"body":"were problematic puppets."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2209.29,"endTime":2212.8,"body":"Do you think we're"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2209.29,"endTime":2212.8,"body":"getting better at being with the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2212.8,"endTime":2215.11,"body":"evidence and the DNA and all the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2212.8,"endTime":2215.11,"body":"stuff that we're getting more"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2215.11,"endTime":2218.05,"body":"accurate in those kinds of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2215.11,"endTime":2218.05,"body":"things in terms of convictions"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2218.05,"endTime":2219.04,"body":"and whatnot, though?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2219.13,"endTime":2221.95,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2219.13,"endTime":2221.95,"body":"but again, everything has a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2221.95,"endTime":2226.06,"body":"story. Everything has the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2221.95,"endTime":2226.06,"body":"potential for bias and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2226.06,"endTime":2230.08,"body":"interpretation, no matter what"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2226.06,"endTime":2230.08,"body":"the facts are, you still have to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2230.08,"endTime":2235.72,"body":"build your your reconstruction."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2230.08,"endTime":2235.72,"body":"And that will, if you're an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2235.72,"endTime":2239.26,"body":"attorney, if you're the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2235.72,"endTime":2239.26,"body":"prosecutor versus the defense"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2239.26,"endTime":2241.99,"body":"attorney, that story is going to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2239.26,"endTime":2241.99,"body":"look different, and it's going"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2241.99,"endTime":2246.01,"body":"to make the evidence look"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2241.99,"endTime":2246.01,"body":"different. And also, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2246.01,"endTime":2248.32,"body":"there's, sometimes there's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2246.01,"endTime":2248.32,"body":"nothing you can do, like let's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2248.32,"endTime":2251.02,"body":"say somebody comes in and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2248.32,"endTime":2251.02,"body":"confesses to golfing and it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2251.29,"endTime":2254.35,"body":"exactly matches. And you're the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2251.29,"endTime":2254.35,"body":"defense attorney, what are you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2254.35,"endTime":2256.81,"body":"going to do? Well, it's probably"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2254.35,"endTime":2256.81,"body":"go for an insanity defense or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2256.81,"endTime":2259.87,"body":"something like that. Now, you're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2256.81,"endTime":2259.87,"body":"in the arena where you can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2259.87,"endTime":2263.56,"body":"really twist things around in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2259.87,"endTime":2263.56,"body":"terms of mental state, but you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2263.56,"endTime":2266.92,"body":"can't do much with bad evidence."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2263.56,"endTime":2266.92,"body":"If the person said I, yes, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2266.92,"endTime":2271.51,"body":"did. I put the rope around her"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2266.92,"endTime":2271.51,"body":"neck, I blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2272.2,"endTime":2275.26,"body":"There's not much you can do,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2272.2,"endTime":2275.26,"body":"unless you find the person who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2275.26,"endTime":2280.21,"body":"put him up to doing this. So now"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2275.26,"endTime":2280.21,"body":"you pan back. And now you have a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2280.21,"endTime":2284.14,"body":"whole new scenario where the guy"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2280.21,"endTime":2284.14,"body":"isn't the killer, but he's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2284.14,"endTime":2288.7,"body":"afraid of the guy who is or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2284.14,"endTime":2288.7,"body":"that's his son. So he's going to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2288.7,"endTime":2293.2,"body":"take the fall. You know, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2288.7,"endTime":2293.2,"body":"like, most of this crime shows"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2293.68,"endTime":2298.72,"body":"us those twists. Yeah, those are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2293.68,"endTime":2298.72,"body":"real, real twists on real cases."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2298.78,"endTime":2299.47,"body":"Or what"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2299.47,"endTime":2302.02,"body":"if they put DNA in"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2299.47,"endTime":2302.02,"body":"a crime scene? Like, what if"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2302.02,"endTime":2304.0,"body":"somebody plant is that a real"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2302.02,"endTime":2304.0,"body":"thing that could have that's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2304.0,"endTime":2304.9,"body":"kind of scary. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2305.2,"endTime":2307.72,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2305.2,"endTime":2307.72,"body":"Yeah. Or you happen to be there."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2307.72,"endTime":2310.18,"body":"So your DNA was there doesn't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2307.72,"endTime":2310.18,"body":"make you the killer,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2310.24,"endTime":2312.88,"body":"right? Yeah. Now,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2310.24,"endTime":2312.88,"body":"there's a lot of security,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2312.88,"endTime":2317.53,"body":"things like that. So with BTK,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2312.88,"endTime":2317.53,"body":"though, gosh, like, I remember"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2317.53,"endTime":2320.44,"body":"one time I was on a jury, I was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2317.53,"endTime":2320.44,"body":"beef. I didn't get picked for"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2320.44,"endTime":2323.92,"body":"it. But they said this guy was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2320.44,"endTime":2323.92,"body":"accused of killing. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2323.92,"endTime":2327.52,"body":"just got chills being in the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2323.92,"endTime":2327.52,"body":"same room as him. Was, would you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2327.52,"endTime":2329.86,"body":"ever had did you have that when"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2327.52,"endTime":2329.86,"body":"you first started talking to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2329.86,"endTime":2332.5,"body":"these killers? I mean, I know"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2329.86,"endTime":2332.5,"body":"what BTK was on the phone. But"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2332.68,"endTime":2335.62,"body":"when you're ever like in the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2332.68,"endTime":2335.62,"body":"same room, did you first get"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2335.62,"endTime":2336.76,"body":"chills? Why I went"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2336.76,"endTime":2339.16,"body":"to the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2336.76,"endTime":2339.16,"body":"prison, but hear me he wasn't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2339.16,"endTime":2342.49,"body":"the first serial killer I talked"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2339.16,"endTime":2342.49,"body":"to. So yeah, probably the very,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2342.49,"endTime":2346.15,"body":"very first letter I got from a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2342.49,"endTime":2346.15,"body":"serial killer is what you're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2346.15,"endTime":2350.17,"body":"getting at. Okay. The very first"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2346.15,"endTime":2350.17,"body":"time I received a letter from a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2350.17,"endTime":2354.61,"body":"serial killer, I looked at the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2350.17,"endTime":2354.61,"body":"envelope and thought, Oh, that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2354.61,"endTime":2361.99,"body":"is just creepy. And yeah, it had"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2354.61,"endTime":2361.99,"body":"an aura. It had an aura"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2361.99,"endTime":2368.89,"body":"contagion of something corrupt."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2361.99,"endTime":2368.89,"body":"And if I touched it, what would"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2368.89,"endTime":2372.19,"body":"it you know what I mean? It's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2368.89,"endTime":2372.19,"body":"not superstitious, but a lot of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2372.19,"endTime":2375.94,"body":"people do that. I have people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2372.19,"endTime":2375.94,"body":"who refuse to touch anything vtk"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2375.94,"endTime":2378.97,"body":"and sent me they can't because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2375.94,"endTime":2378.97,"body":"they think it's gonna somehow"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2379.42,"endTime":2386.08,"body":"invade them. And in frankly, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2379.42,"endTime":2386.08,"body":"very first time I got a letter"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2386.08,"endTime":2389.74,"body":"from a serial killer, I felt"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2386.08,"endTime":2389.74,"body":"like I don't know about open"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2389.74,"endTime":2395.05,"body":"this. But there had been years"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2389.74,"endTime":2395.05,"body":"between that and actually"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2395.17,"endTime":2398.74,"body":"talking with Raider. So by the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2395.17,"endTime":2398.74,"body":"time I'm talking with him, I'm"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2398.74,"endTime":2403.66,"body":"not disturbed. I did, I did go"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2398.74,"endTime":2403.66,"body":"to the prison, but in, they had"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2403.66,"endTime":2407.35,"body":"him in one room and me and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2403.66,"endTime":2407.35,"body":"another with a monitor. So it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2407.35,"endTime":2410.89,"body":"not even even the glass"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2407.35,"endTime":2410.89,"body":"partition that you typically see"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2410.89,"endTime":2414.94,"body":"on these TV shows, wasn't even"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2410.89,"endTime":2414.94,"body":"that. So it was much easier to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2414.94,"endTime":2418.51,"body":"talk on the phone because there"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2414.94,"endTime":2418.51,"body":"weren't guards around, listening"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2418.51,"endTime":2422.68,"body":"in on everything. Your calls are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2418.51,"endTime":2422.68,"body":"recorded, but it's not like the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2422.68,"endTime":2425.92,"body":"same as you know, somebody's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2422.68,"endTime":2425.92,"body":"right behind you at the door"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2425.92,"endTime":2430.3,"body":"listening to what you're saying."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2425.92,"endTime":2430.3,"body":"So it was most effective to talk"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2430.3,"endTime":2430.96,"body":"on the phone."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2431.44,"endTime":2434.44,"body":"You because he was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2431.44,"endTime":2434.44,"body":"scared of the guards to hearing"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2434.47,"endTime":2437.35,"body":"so he spoken coat like, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2434.47,"endTime":2437.35,"body":"he's already convicted and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2437.35,"endTime":2439.69,"body":"guilty. So what is he worried is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2437.35,"endTime":2439.69,"body":"going to happen?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2439.9,"endTime":2441.76,"body":"Oh, it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2439.9,"endTime":2441.76,"body":"more that they're going to take"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2441.76,"endTime":2444.64,"body":"things in Salem on the internet,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2441.76,"endTime":2444.64,"body":"which they did, which they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2444.64,"endTime":2448.36,"body":"weren't doing. Oh, like, like,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2444.64,"endTime":2448.36,"body":"let's see wasn't really supposed"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2448.36,"endTime":2452.02,"body":"to be working with me on this?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2448.36,"endTime":2452.02,"body":"Oh, he's no, there were sort of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2452.02,"endTime":2455.59,"body":"two ideas. First of all, this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2452.02,"endTime":2455.59,"body":"was all sanctioned by the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2455.59,"endTime":2459.91,"body":"victim's family trust, okay,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2455.59,"endTime":2459.91,"body":"there was a consortium, when"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2459.91,"endTime":2463.66,"body":"this all started was five years"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2459.91,"endTime":2463.66,"body":"before I got involved, where"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2463.72,"endTime":2467.95,"body":"another person wanted to write a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2463.72,"endTime":2467.95,"body":"book. And the victim's families"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2467.95,"endTime":2471.73,"body":"got together, had a lawyer sued"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2467.95,"endTime":2471.73,"body":"her. Because they didn't want"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2471.76,"endTime":2476.11,"body":"her or him making any money off"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2471.76,"endTime":2476.11,"body":"of their victims pain or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2476.11,"endTime":2480.91,"body":"whatever, whatnot. She then"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2476.11,"endTime":2480.91,"body":"want, wanted to deliver it all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2480.91,"endTime":2486.34,"body":"to them. Whatever proceeds there"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2480.91,"endTime":2486.34,"body":"were, but by then damage had"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2486.34,"endTime":2491.8,"body":"been done. And by the time I saw"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2486.34,"endTime":2491.8,"body":"her on Facebook, and so whatever"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2491.8,"endTime":2495.13,"body":"happened to your book, she asked"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2491.8,"endTime":2495.13,"body":"me, Would you take it over?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2495.16,"endTime":2500.11,"body":"Well, the arrangement was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2495.16,"endTime":2500.11,"body":"already made, that I would take"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2500.11,"endTime":2503.2,"body":"my expenses, but the majority of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2500.11,"endTime":2503.2,"body":"the money is going to the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2503.2,"endTime":2506.89,"body":"victims families. So there's one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2503.2,"endTime":2506.89,"body":"contingent of people who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2506.89,"endTime":2510.13,"body":"supported that I thought that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2506.89,"endTime":2510.13,"body":"was a good idea. There's going"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2510.13,"endTime":2513.85,"body":"to be a book, there had already"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2510.13,"endTime":2513.85,"body":"been numerous books about the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2513.85,"endTime":2518.32,"body":"investigation. And the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2513.85,"endTime":2518.32,"body":"investigators. There's going to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2518.32,"endTime":2521.14,"body":"be a book with this guy one way"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2518.32,"endTime":2521.14,"body":"or another. So they could keep"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2521.14,"endTime":2524.65,"body":"some control over what it was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2521.14,"endTime":2524.65,"body":"about. That's what they wanted."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2524.65,"endTime":2530.44,"body":"And they liked that I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2524.65,"endTime":2530.44,"body":"use it for getting benefit in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2530.53,"endTime":2534.46,"body":"forensic psychology, criminology"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2530.53,"endTime":2534.46,"body":"and law enforcement, and as well"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2534.46,"endTime":2538.72,"body":"as them so that way, they it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2534.46,"endTime":2538.72,"body":"gave them some control. But that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2538.72,"endTime":2541.75,"body":"didn't mean everybody was in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2538.72,"endTime":2541.75,"body":"supportive this, certainly law"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2541.75,"endTime":2545.53,"body":"enforcement wasn't in support of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2541.75,"endTime":2545.53,"body":"it. The DEA initially Wasn't she"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2545.53,"endTime":2548.53,"body":"was a friend of mine, before I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2545.53,"endTime":2548.53,"body":"even got involved. I did"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2548.53,"endTime":2553.27,"body":"convince her it was a worthwhile"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2548.53,"endTime":2553.27,"body":"thing to do. So then she was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2553.27,"endTime":2555.7,"body":"supportive. But there were"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2553.27,"endTime":2555.7,"body":"people in the community who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2555.7,"endTime":2558.25,"body":"thought this should have never"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2555.7,"endTime":2558.25,"body":"happened. There are people who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2558.25,"endTime":2561.7,"body":"think that once someone commits"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2558.25,"endTime":2561.7,"body":"a crime like this, they should"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2561.7,"endTime":2564.91,"body":"suffer and hell the rest of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2561.7,"endTime":2564.91,"body":"their lives. But I'm telling"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2564.91,"endTime":2568.54,"body":"you, he's not suffering. He's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2564.91,"endTime":2568.54,"body":"busy. He corresponds with people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2568.54,"endTime":2571.3,"body":"all over the world. They give"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2568.54,"endTime":2571.3,"body":"him money, they give him gifts."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2571.54,"endTime":2574.42,"body":"He probably has more attention"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2571.54,"endTime":2574.42,"body":"now than he ever had in his"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2574.42,"endTime":2580.45,"body":"life. This is his family. Yes,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2574.42,"endTime":2580.45,"body":"he would rather be free but he's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2580.45,"endTime":2585.34,"body":"not suffering and how he's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2580.45,"endTime":2585.34,"body":"living isn't what happens."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2585.7,"endTime":2588.82,"body":"He's living in a 12"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2585.7,"endTime":2588.82,"body":"by eight concrete cell. He"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2588.82,"endTime":2591.25,"body":"doesn't have a cellmate does is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2588.82,"endTime":2591.25,"body":"he able to interact with the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2591.25,"endTime":2593.95,"body":"other prisoners at all or No,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2591.25,"endTime":2593.95,"body":"no,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2594.52,"endTime":2595.9,"body":"no."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2594.52,"endTime":2595.9,"body":"Well, how does he use general"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2595.9,"endTime":2601.3,"body":"population because he's a he's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2595.9,"endTime":2601.3,"body":"famous, he would be a target. He"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2601.3,"endTime":2603.01,"body":"also is manipulative."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2604.06,"endTime":2606.64,"body":"So how so you can"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2604.06,"endTime":2606.64,"body":"talk to people on the phone? And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2606.64,"endTime":2609.07,"body":"is he allowed internet and stuff"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2606.64,"endTime":2609.07,"body":"or cable TV?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2609.46,"endTime":2613.09,"body":"No, no"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2609.46,"endTime":2613.09,"body":"internet, but he can watch TV."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2613.24,"endTime":2617.29,"body":"He's got a TV in his cell and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2613.24,"endTime":2617.29,"body":"and whatever cable the prison"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2617.29,"endTime":2620.44,"body":"has, he can get access to, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2617.29,"endTime":2620.44,"body":"he doesn't have the internet."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2620.77,"endTime":2625.39,"body":"Okay, but people can text him he"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2620.77,"endTime":2625.39,"body":"they they have tablets in prison"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2625.39,"endTime":2630.46,"body":"now. Where you can make your"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2625.39,"endTime":2630.46,"body":"commissary orders digitally and,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2630.85,"endTime":2634.9,"body":"and he can get texts and he can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2630.85,"endTime":2634.9,"body":"get videos from people he can't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2634.9,"endTime":2638.35,"body":"send the he can text out you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2634.9,"endTime":2638.35,"body":"have to pay for just like you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2638.35,"endTime":2642.4,"body":"have to pay for the calls. But"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2638.35,"endTime":2642.4,"body":"yeah, it's moving in that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2642.4,"endTime":2643.09,"body":"direction. So"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2643.09,"endTime":2645.52,"body":"these are the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2643.09,"endTime":2645.52,"body":"messages of those messages"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2645.52,"endTime":2648.37,"body":"monitored and such. No, no,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2648.4,"endTime":2649.84,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2648.4,"endTime":2649.84,"body":"they're on the tablet. They"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2649.84,"endTime":2655.06,"body":"could be if there's digital"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2649.84,"endTime":2655.06,"body":"tracks. Yeah. They Grindlay just"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2655.06,"endTime":2657.16,"body":"like the phone calls are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2655.06,"endTime":2657.16,"body":"recorded, but who's sitting"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2657.16,"endTime":2660.58,"body":"there listening to every"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2657.16,"endTime":2660.58,"body":"prisoners phone call? So is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2660.58,"endTime":2662.47,"body":"he happy? Because"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2660.58,"endTime":2662.47,"body":"now he's getting all this"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2662.47,"endTime":2665.14,"body":"attention and fame? Is that kind"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2662.47,"endTime":2665.14,"body":"of what he wanted all along?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2665.8,"endTime":2670.36,"body":"He"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2665.8,"endTime":2670.36,"body":"wanted fame. He is. To some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2670.36,"endTime":2673.09,"body":"degree, he's always happy when"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2670.36,"endTime":2673.09,"body":"he sees his name and print."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2673.09,"endTime":2678.07,"body":"That's always a big thing for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2673.09,"endTime":2678.07,"body":"him. But no, I mean, nobody's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2678.07,"endTime":2682.24,"body":"happy, who wants to be out and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2678.07,"endTime":2682.24,"body":"about and making their own life"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2682.24,"endTime":2685.63,"body":"decisions and eating the food"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2682.24,"endTime":2685.63,"body":"they want to eat? So nobody's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2685.63,"endTime":2691.3,"body":"happy like that. But given the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2685.63,"endTime":2691.3,"body":"circumstances. He's not having a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2691.3,"endTime":2695.05,"body":"terrible life, how the way"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2691.3,"endTime":2695.05,"body":"people wish that it was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2695.47,"endTime":2698.44,"body":"interesting, and he"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2695.47,"endTime":2698.44,"body":"doesn't. He doesn't have"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2698.44,"endTime":2702.01,"body":"nightmares or guilt or feel"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2698.44,"endTime":2702.01,"body":"remorse for any of the things"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2702.04,"endTime":2704.17,"body":"that he does not that's not"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2702.04,"endTime":2704.17,"body":"torturing him."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2704.799,"endTime":2707.289,"body":"Now it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2704.799,"endTime":2707.289,"body":"never. He never had nightmares"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2707.289,"endTime":2712.659,"body":"like that. He's he does regret"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2707.289,"endTime":2712.659,"body":"hurting his family, especially"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2712.659,"endTime":2717.159,"body":"his wife, ex wife. He does have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2712.659,"endTime":2717.159,"body":"regrets, but that's not the same"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2717.159,"endTime":2718.059,"body":"as remorse."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2718.69,"endTime":2720.43,"body":"Okay, yeah, I'm"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2718.69,"endTime":2720.43,"body":"glad you brought it. I was gonna"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2720.43,"endTime":2723.91,"body":"ask you about the wife. So you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2720.43,"endTime":2723.91,"body":"say in the book, the wife caught"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2723.91,"endTime":2728.98,"body":"him in bondage one time, then or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2723.91,"endTime":2728.98,"body":"twice, okay. And the wife read a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2728.98,"endTime":2731.92,"body":"book about it and talk to like a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2728.98,"endTime":2731.92,"body":"person in the church or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2731.92,"endTime":2734.83,"body":"something. And then she seemed"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2731.92,"endTime":2734.83,"body":"to accept it. Oh, this is just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2735.04,"endTime":2735.82,"body":"the way he is."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2736.509,"endTime":2740.859,"body":"No, no."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2736.509,"endTime":2740.859,"body":"It was more either have to leave"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2740.859,"endTime":2745.389,"body":"you get a divorce, which is not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2740.859,"endTime":2745.389,"body":"okay. Okay. Within her religious"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2745.419,"endTime":2749.829,"body":"idea, or I will accept it, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2745.419,"endTime":2749.829,"body":"we will. You will never do this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2749.829,"endTime":2752.709,"body":"again. We will not talk about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2749.829,"endTime":2752.709,"body":"it. It wasn't wasn't like, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2752.709,"endTime":2758.109,"body":"okay. No, I think she was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2752.709,"endTime":2758.109,"body":"horrified by it. But the only"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2758.109,"endTime":2761.049,"body":"other option was we have to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2758.109,"endTime":2761.049,"body":"separate and she didn't want to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2761.049,"endTime":2762.789,"body":"do that either. She had two"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2761.049,"endTime":2762.789,"body":"kids."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2763.779,"endTime":2767.289,"body":"Yeah. And so she's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2763.779,"endTime":2767.289,"body":"never been interviewed. She you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2767.289,"endTime":2770.079,"body":"think she's read the book or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2767.289,"endTime":2770.079,"body":"watched the series?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2771.009,"endTime":2773.709,"body":"I can't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2771.009,"endTime":2773.709,"body":"really talk about her. I, you"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2773.709,"endTime":2775.569,"body":"know, I Yeah. Okay. Well,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2775.569,"endTime":2779.709,"body":"do you think? Just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2775.569,"endTime":2779.709,"body":"in general, Are there signs and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2779.709,"endTime":2783.309,"body":"clues? That I mean, it's always"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2779.709,"endTime":2783.309,"body":"shocking to me when they when"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2783.309,"endTime":2786.519,"body":"these serial killers get caught?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2783.309,"endTime":2786.519,"body":"And, you know, they have family"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2786.519,"endTime":2789.579,"body":"members, they have children,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2786.519,"endTime":2789.579,"body":"they have neighbors and friends."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2789.879,"endTime":2792.939,"body":"And everyone seems to be so"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2789.879,"endTime":2792.939,"body":"surprised Is there is there"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2792.939,"endTime":2796.269,"body":"signs or clues that you may be"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2792.939,"endTime":2796.269,"body":"married to a serial killer or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2796.299,"endTime":2799.719,"body":"you know, like that people could"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2796.299,"endTime":2799.719,"body":"pick up on or, well, they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2799.72,"endTime":2801.28,"body":"not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2799.72,"endTime":2801.28,"body":"going to be distinguished from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2801.28,"endTime":2805.51,"body":"you may be married to somebody"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2801.28,"endTime":2805.51,"body":"who's having an affair, or a con"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2805.51,"endTime":2808.75,"body":"artist or rapist, they're not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2805.51,"endTime":2808.75,"body":"going to be distinguished that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2808.75,"endTime":2814.84,"body":"way. Because they're, they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2808.75,"endTime":2814.84,"body":"pretty good at. First of all,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2814.87,"endTime":2818.59,"body":"there's two things going on. One"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2814.87,"endTime":2818.59,"body":"is the offender wants to keep"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2818.59,"endTime":2822.25,"body":"their behavior secret. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2818.59,"endTime":2822.25,"body":"they've worked up a pretty good"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2822.37,"endTime":2827.5,"body":"shield. But secondly, nobody"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2822.37,"endTime":2827.5,"body":"married to a killer or, or the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2827.5,"endTime":2830.62,"body":"daughter or son or father or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2827.5,"endTime":2830.62,"body":"mother of a killer wants to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2830.62,"endTime":2835.6,"body":"believe their relative is a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2830.62,"endTime":2835.6,"body":"serial killer. One of the best"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2835.6,"endTime":2839.65,"body":"books on this subject is Jeffrey"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2835.6,"endTime":2839.65,"body":"Dahmer is father, who had"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2839.65,"endTime":2845.35,"body":"numerous things that suggested"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2839.65,"endTime":2845.35,"body":"that his son was not okay. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2845.35,"endTime":2849.85,"body":"he was able to explain them all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2845.35,"endTime":2849.85,"body":"away. And even at one point, he"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2849.85,"endTime":2854.89,"body":"was holding the head of a victim"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2849.85,"endTime":2854.89,"body":"in a box. And and Jeff managed"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2854.89,"endTime":2858.34,"body":"to persuade him to not open the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2854.89,"endTime":2858.34,"body":"box because it contained"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2858.34,"endTime":2859.24,"body":"pornography."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2859.6,"endTime":2862.51,"body":"Oh, that's right. I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2859.6,"endTime":2862.51,"body":"remember seeing an interview."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2862.72,"endTime":2863.26,"body":"And he"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2863.29,"endTime":2865.9,"body":"did not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2863.29,"endTime":2865.9,"body":"open the box and had to have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2866.29,"endTime":2867.79,"body":"stick."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2868.12,"endTime":2870.28,"body":"Right? Yeah, you're"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2868.12,"endTime":2870.28,"body":"right. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2871.66,"endTime":2873.07,"body":"but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2871.66,"endTime":2873.07,"body":"that's what happens. It's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2873.07,"endTime":2880.39,"body":"cognitive safety net. And a way"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2873.07,"endTime":2880.39,"body":"you can always look at whatever"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2880.42,"endTime":2884.17,"body":"this developing kid, for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2880.42,"endTime":2884.17,"body":"example, is doing and explain it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2884.17,"endTime":2889.09,"body":"away as a phase they'll get away"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2884.17,"endTime":2889.09,"body":"from it. Oh, they just like"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2889.96,"endTime":2892.27,"body":"they're just experimenting with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2889.96,"endTime":2892.27,"body":"animals, because they're going"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2892.27,"endTime":2895.87,"body":"to be a biologist. So they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2892.27,"endTime":2895.87,"body":"just experimenting with, with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2897.04,"endTime":2900.49,"body":"explosives, because they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2897.04,"endTime":2900.49,"body":"going to go into the ATF, things"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2900.49,"endTime":2904.39,"body":"like that. There's always ways"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2900.49,"endTime":2904.39,"body":"to explain why something some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2904.39,"endTime":2909.37,"body":"behavior is not a serious"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2904.39,"endTime":2909.37,"body":"aberration. And especially if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2909.37,"endTime":2913.06,"body":"you're having an investment and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2909.37,"endTime":2913.06,"body":"staying married, like you don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2913.06,"endTime":2915.37,"body":"have a job, and you've got kids,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2913.06,"endTime":2915.37,"body":"and what are you going to do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2915.37,"endTime":2920.68,"body":"without this person? Or that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2915.37,"endTime":2920.68,"body":"person abuses you anyway, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2920.68,"endTime":2923.38,"body":"you've just learned to live with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2920.68,"endTime":2923.38,"body":"it. And there's so many cases,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2923.38,"endTime":2926.02,"body":"it's hard to kind of generalize"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2923.38,"endTime":2926.02,"body":"about it. But there are two"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2926.02,"endTime":2931.84,"body":"things always at work, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2926.02,"endTime":2931.84,"body":"killer and their shield. Wow,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2931.84,"endTime":2935.83,"body":"they build that because right or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2931.84,"endTime":2935.83,"body":"went to church and had a job and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2935.86,"endTime":2939.1,"body":"you know, nothing about him"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2935.86,"endTime":2939.1,"body":"suggested serial killer. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2939.1,"endTime":2944.62,"body":"then there's the person who has"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2939.1,"endTime":2944.62,"body":"cognitive ways of reframing any"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2944.62,"endTime":2949.57,"body":"given behavior to be more benign"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2944.62,"endTime":2949.57,"body":"than it really is. Same thing"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2949.57,"endTime":2953.23,"body":"can be said for the development"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2949.57,"endTime":2953.23,"body":"of people into mass murderers."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2953.53,"endTime":2957.43,"body":"We see we see much more in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2953.53,"endTime":2957.43,"body":"background of a mass murderer"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2957.43,"endTime":2963.52,"body":"than a serial killer. And yet"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2957.43,"endTime":2963.52,"body":"people don't say anything. They"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2963.52,"endTime":2965.89,"body":"don't want to believe this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2963.52,"endTime":2965.89,"body":"person really could go into an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2965.89,"endTime":2969.88,"body":"elementary school and shoot"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2965.89,"endTime":2969.88,"body":"somebody up. Right? Yeah."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2970.24,"endTime":2972.76,"body":"Okay, so there are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2970.24,"endTime":2972.76,"body":"so you feel like there are red"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2972.76,"endTime":2975.49,"body":"flags with the so the different"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2972.76,"endTime":2975.49,"body":"serial killer mass murderer"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2975.49,"endTime":2977.89,"body":"serial killer is like multiple"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2975.49,"endTime":2977.89,"body":"incidents, whereas a mass"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2977.89,"endTime":2980.71,"body":"murderer is usually just one"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2977.89,"endTime":2980.71,"body":"large incident like"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2980.71,"endTime":2983.05,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2980.71,"endTime":2983.05,"body":"And a mass murderer typically is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2983.14,"endTime":2989.68,"body":"is provoked with anger, revenge,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2983.14,"endTime":2989.68,"body":"fantasies, punishment,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2990.25,"endTime":2994.78,"body":"entitlement there, there are a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2990.25,"endTime":2994.78,"body":"number of things that they they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2994.78,"endTime":2999.43,"body":"tend to share in common, unlike"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2994.78,"endTime":2999.43,"body":"serial killers who have diverse"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2999.43,"endTime":3002.64,"body":"motivation. Shannon's diverse"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":2999.43,"endTime":3002.64,"body":"things that they're operating"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3002.64,"endTime":3007.26,"body":"on. And diverse developmental"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3002.64,"endTime":3007.26,"body":"trajectories is much harder with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3007.26,"endTime":3010.5,"body":"somebody like that than with a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3007.26,"endTime":3010.5,"body":"mass murderer."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3011.25,"endTime":3014.04,"body":"So what are the red"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3011.25,"endTime":3014.04,"body":"flags? Because that's something"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3014.04,"endTime":3016.86,"body":"that I feel like is one of the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3014.04,"endTime":3016.86,"body":"problems with the mass murder"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3016.86,"endTime":3019.77,"body":"thing right now the mass"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3016.86,"endTime":3019.77,"body":"shooters and things is that I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3019.77,"endTime":3023.16,"body":"know the latest one, I think it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3019.77,"endTime":3023.16,"body":"was the ivaldi he texted some"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3023.16,"endTime":3026.1,"body":"girl and said, I'm gonna do it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3023.16,"endTime":3026.1,"body":"and sent like a picture of guns."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3026.1,"endTime":3029.43,"body":"And she was like, oh, like she"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3026.1,"endTime":3029.43,"body":"was clueless? Could we educate"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3029.43,"endTime":3033.3,"body":"the public? Everybody, I feel"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3029.43,"endTime":3033.3,"body":"like not just kids. But like all"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3033.3,"endTime":3036.96,"body":"all people on some of these red"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3033.3,"endTime":3036.96,"body":"flags. I felt,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3037.98,"endTime":3040.41,"body":"give a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3037.98,"endTime":3040.41,"body":"shout out to Peter landmines,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3040.41,"endTime":3045.18,"body":"book warning signs, because not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3040.41,"endTime":3045.18,"body":"only does he have, he's probably"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3045.18,"endTime":3050.46,"body":"the world's expert on school"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3045.18,"endTime":3050.46,"body":"shooters. He has a website with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3050.46,"endTime":3053.07,"body":"all of the cases and all of the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3050.46,"endTime":3053.07,"body":"documents,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3053.13,"endTime":3055.29,"body":"I need to have him"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3053.13,"endTime":3055.29,"body":"on the podcast then. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3056.55,"endTime":3060.57,"body":"And he"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3056.55,"endTime":3060.57,"body":"shows at the end of each of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3060.57,"endTime":3065.13,"body":"these chapters, those those"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3060.57,"endTime":3065.13,"body":"possible incidents that were"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3065.13,"endTime":3070.83,"body":"stopped by somebody who saw the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3065.13,"endTime":3070.83,"body":"behavior and did something about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3070.83,"endTime":3076.71,"body":"it. So even though we will have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3070.83,"endTime":3076.71,"body":"cases where somebody says I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3076.71,"endTime":3080.19,"body":"didn't take that seriously just"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3076.71,"endTime":3080.19,"body":"because he posted it on Facebook"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3080.19,"endTime":3084.48,"body":"or whatever, we will always have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3080.19,"endTime":3084.48,"body":"those we are having more and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3084.48,"endTime":3088.05,"body":"more and more of the ones that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3084.48,"endTime":3088.05,"body":"were stopped before they happen"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3088.05,"endTime":3092.82,"body":"because somebody did recognize"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3088.05,"endTime":3092.82,"body":"the warning signs and said I see"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3092.82,"endTime":3097.38,"body":"them in this person and police"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3092.82,"endTime":3097.38,"body":"were able or counselors or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3097.38,"endTime":3101.28,"body":"teachers or somebody was able to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3097.38,"endTime":3101.28,"body":"intervene and prevent it from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3101.28,"endTime":3106.5,"body":"happening. So that book is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3101.28,"endTime":3106.5,"body":"fabulous for not just educating"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3106.5,"endTime":3109.41,"body":"you on the warning signs but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3106.5,"endTime":3109.41,"body":"showing you the people who made"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3109.41,"endTime":3110.22,"body":"the difference."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3110.43,"endTime":3112.29,"body":"Okay, yeah, I want"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3110.43,"endTime":3112.29,"body":"to read that that sounds"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3112.29,"endTime":3116.28,"body":"fascinating. So if we without"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3112.29,"endTime":3116.28,"body":"getting into the gun thing"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3116.37,"endTime":3120.06,"body":"whether we have more guns at"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3116.37,"endTime":3120.06,"body":"schools to combat the killers"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3120.06,"endTime":3123.24,"body":"but if we magically somehow if"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3120.06,"endTime":3123.24,"body":"they're found out which I don't"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3123.24,"endTime":3125.22,"body":"think it's possible to be"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3123.24,"endTime":3125.22,"body":"somehow took every gun out of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3125.22,"endTime":3128.43,"body":"America and the cartel couldn't"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3125.22,"endTime":3128.43,"body":"have them and so these killers"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3128.43,"endTime":3132.21,"body":"these mass shooters did not have"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3128.43,"endTime":3132.21,"body":"guns. Okay, so they do not have"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3132.21,"endTime":3134.67,"body":"access to a gun they do they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3132.21,"endTime":3134.67,"body":"can't get a gun. Would they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3134.67,"endTime":3138.57,"body":"still have that urge though? To"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3134.67,"endTime":3138.57,"body":"kill to do a mass killing would"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3138.57,"endTime":3141.36,"body":"they get in a semi and run"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3138.57,"endTime":3141.36,"body":"people over would they poison"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3141.36,"endTime":3144.57,"body":"water? Would they do Molotov"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3141.36,"endTime":3144.57,"body":"cocktails like"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3144.96,"endTime":3147.3,"body":"poisoned"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3144.96,"endTime":3147.3,"body":"water knives have been used in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3147.3,"endTime":3150.81,"body":"mass murders and other countries"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3147.3,"endTime":3150.81,"body":"that don't have access to guns."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3151.29,"endTime":3157.44,"body":"Explosives certainly is as been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3151.29,"endTime":3157.44,"body":"the in the weapons of mass"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3157.44,"endTime":3163.5,"body":"murderers, cars fixing and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3157.44,"endTime":3163.5,"body":"planes and they go down kill a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3163.5,"endTime":3168.27,"body":"lot of people. Yeah, they still"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3163.5,"endTime":3168.27,"body":"want to do it. They still there."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3168.3,"endTime":3172.23,"body":"They're turning anger outward."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3168.3,"endTime":3172.23,"body":"And, and because and I'm going"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3172.23,"endTime":3176.25,"body":"to put this on the media because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3172.23,"endTime":3176.25,"body":"the media gives them fame. Some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3176.25,"endTime":3180.42,"body":"of them are motivated to make"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3176.25,"endTime":3180.42,"body":"sure they have the highest"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3180.42,"endTime":3184.11,"body":"victim tall, not all of them."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3180.42,"endTime":3184.11,"body":"But some of them have actually"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3184.11,"endTime":3187.59,"body":"made those statements. They want"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3184.11,"endTime":3187.59,"body":"to be famous. They've seen every"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3187.62,"endTime":3190.95,"body":"someone else in the news who did"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3187.62,"endTime":3190.95,"body":"this. They're going to do it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3190.95,"endTime":3195.57,"body":"too. But they're going to outdo"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3190.95,"endTime":3195.57,"body":"Columbine, for example, there"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3195.57,"endTime":3199.77,"body":"are multiple Another thing about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3195.57,"endTime":3199.77,"body":"Peter Langman site, he makes he"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3199.8,"endTime":3205.23,"body":"takes Columbine from 1999,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3199.8,"endTime":3205.23,"body":"Littleton, Colorado, and shows"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3205.47,"endTime":3209.43,"body":"how many of our met our school"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3205.47,"endTime":3209.43,"body":"shooters since those days have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3209.43,"endTime":3215.88,"body":"cited Columbine as their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3209.43,"endTime":3215.88,"body":"inspiration. And there are lots"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3216.24,"endTime":3222.09,"body":"of them. Either they, I saw them"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3216.24,"endTime":3222.09,"body":"do it, they were cool. I'm going"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3222.09,"endTime":3224.13,"body":"to do to or I'm going to outdo"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3222.09,"endTime":3224.13,"body":"them."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3224.76,"endTime":3227.79,"body":"Wow. Yeah. No, it's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3224.76,"endTime":3227.79,"body":"interesting like that. That was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3227.79,"endTime":3230.28,"body":"a big one. Because I remember I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3227.79,"endTime":3230.28,"body":"was in college, and I was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3230.31,"endTime":3232.65,"body":"studying psychology. And that's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3230.31,"endTime":3232.65,"body":"what made me wanted to be a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3232.65,"endTime":3235.17,"body":"counselor because I thought, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3232.65,"endTime":3235.17,"body":"I could I could help you know,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3235.17,"endTime":3238.35,"body":"those kinds of kids like that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3235.17,"endTime":3238.35,"body":"and try to prevent that. It"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3238.35,"endTime":3241.86,"body":"seems like we haven't figured"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3238.35,"endTime":3241.86,"body":"out the answer to this. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3241.89,"endTime":3244.83,"body":"we have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3241.89,"endTime":3244.83,"body":"no, I mean, I would recommend"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3244.83,"endTime":3245.43,"body":"that book."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3245.7,"endTime":3248.46,"body":"So why don't so why"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3245.7,"endTime":3248.46,"body":"isn't that more widespread? Why"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3248.46,"endTime":3250.83,"body":"isn't that something that media"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3248.46,"endTime":3250.83,"body":"reports on and said, Here's the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3250.83,"endTime":3253.77,"body":"red flag, why don't they teach"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3250.83,"endTime":3253.77,"body":"that in schools? Why don't they?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3255.96,"endTime":3258.78,"body":"Like for every student, every"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3255.96,"endTime":3258.78,"body":"student, every kid in high"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3258.78,"endTime":3262.44,"body":"school gets these you know,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3258.78,"endTime":3262.44,"body":"every everybody we all know"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3262.44,"endTime":3265.35,"body":"because I don't even think I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3262.44,"endTime":3265.35,"body":"know what all the red flags are."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3266.25,"endTime":3268.65,"body":"The ones"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3266.25,"endTime":3268.65,"body":"I named probably are we don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3268.65,"endTime":3273.24,"body":"surprise you at all."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3268.65,"endTime":3273.24,"body":"Entitlement, anger, a sense of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3273.24,"endTime":3275.88,"body":"being punitive wanting to be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3273.24,"endTime":3275.88,"body":"famous because they've seen"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3275.88,"endTime":3279.96,"body":"somebody else get fame from"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3275.88,"endTime":3279.96,"body":"doing this. Having a grudge"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3279.96,"endTime":3284.88,"body":"list. Those Those are all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3279.96,"endTime":3284.88,"body":"logical things that would would"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3285.72,"endTime":3289.2,"body":"come together and then they have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3285.72,"endTime":3289.2,"body":"they are a maths, their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3289.2,"endTime":3293.52,"body":"weaponry. They they typically"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3289.2,"endTime":3293.52,"body":"will tell us especially if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3293.52,"endTime":3297.39,"body":"they're younger. Moreover, the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3293.52,"endTime":3297.39,"body":"younger ones will tell someone"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3297.42,"endTime":3301.08,"body":"or warn someone don't go to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3297.42,"endTime":3301.08,"body":"school today. You're gonna see"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3301.08,"endTime":3306.33,"body":"me in the paper, more younger"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3301.08,"endTime":3306.33,"body":"ones have a mental illness"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3306.36,"endTime":3310.65,"body":"attached. And the older ones do."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3306.36,"endTime":3310.65,"body":"But even so it's not it's not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3310.65,"endTime":3314.1,"body":"more than 50%. And yet you see"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3310.65,"endTime":3314.1,"body":"the headline, so they're all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3314.1,"endTime":3316.92,"body":"mentally ill now they're not."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3314.1,"endTime":3316.92,"body":"Now they're not actually,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3317.28,"endTime":3321.48,"body":"they're angry, and they want"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3317.28,"endTime":3321.48,"body":"someone to notice them, and they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3321.48,"endTime":3325.53,"body":"want to punish somebody. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3321.48,"endTime":3325.53,"body":"these are the things that make"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3325.53,"endTime":3330.93,"body":"and they watch. Other people do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3325.53,"endTime":3330.93,"body":"it. And they believe in their"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3330.93,"endTime":3335.25,"body":"fantasy life. They're taking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3330.93,"endTime":3335.25,"body":"satisfaction from it, even if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3335.25,"endTime":3339.15,"body":"they're, they have a suicide"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3335.25,"endTime":3339.15,"body":"plan in place. They're imagining"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3339.15,"endTime":3343.5,"body":"the headlines and the TV shows"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3339.15,"endTime":3343.5,"body":"and the news reports, that's all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3343.5,"endTime":3349.68,"body":"very satisfying in their fantasy"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3343.5,"endTime":3349.68,"body":"life. It would never ever become"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3349.71,"endTime":3355.05,"body":"that satisfying. If they carried"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3349.71,"endTime":3355.05,"body":"it out, got arrested and ended"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3355.05,"endTime":3360.42,"body":"up in, in prison, ask those who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3355.05,"endTime":3360.42,"body":"have who did survive. There,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3360.45,"endTime":3365.22,"body":"they'll tell you nothing. It was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3360.45,"endTime":3365.22,"body":"nothing like the fantasy life."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3365.55,"endTime":3366.6,"body":"Right? It sounds"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3366.63,"endTime":3369.36,"body":"miserable after now"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3366.63,"endTime":3369.36,"body":"they're spending their life in"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3369.36,"endTime":3371.85,"body":"prison or they're there, they've"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3369.36,"endTime":3371.85,"body":"done the suicide thing, and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3371.85,"endTime":3374.52,"body":"they're dead. But I mean, you're"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3371.85,"endTime":3374.52,"body":"spending your Christmas and your"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3374.52,"endTime":3377.61,"body":"birthdays in jail. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3374.52,"endTime":3377.61,"body":"everything, missing everything,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3377.7,"endTime":3381.18,"body":"especially for the young kids"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3377.7,"endTime":3381.18,"body":"that are 18 that haven't lived."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3381.18,"endTime":3384.06,"body":"I mean, it Rader got arrested"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3381.18,"endTime":3384.06,"body":"when he was in his 50s or 60s."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3384.06,"endTime":3386.85,"body":"So I mean, he had lived most of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3384.06,"endTime":3386.85,"body":"his life anyways, but these kids"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3386.85,"endTime":3391.35,"body":"that are 1718 they're gonna miss"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3386.85,"endTime":3391.35,"body":"their whole life to for one"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3391.38,"endTime":3392.58,"body":"shooting incident. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3393.419,"endTime":3394.889,"body":"yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3393.419,"endTime":3394.889,"body":"there's a great interview"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3394.889,"endTime":3398.669,"body":"online, easy to find with Kip"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3394.889,"endTime":3398.669,"body":"Kinkel, who was the Springfield"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3398.669,"endTime":3403.439,"body":"Oregon shooter, when he was 15,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3398.669,"endTime":3403.439,"body":"he expected to die hit that the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3403.439,"endTime":3405.899,"body":"police would shoot him they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3403.439,"endTime":3405.899,"body":"didn't he ended up in prison."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3406.919,"endTime":3410.999,"body":"And he has been talking to a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3406.919,"endTime":3410.999,"body":"journalist and it's a really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3410.999,"endTime":3415.379,"body":"great interview about his case,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3410.999,"endTime":3415.379,"body":"and and the issues he was facing"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3415.379,"endTime":3418.229,"body":"at the time. And he killed his"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3415.379,"endTime":3418.229,"body":"parents. And then he went to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3418.229,"endTime":3422.759,"body":"school and started shooting."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3418.229,"endTime":3422.759,"body":"And, and his reflections on that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3422.759,"endTime":3429.539,"body":"what his life has been like that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3422.759,"endTime":3429.539,"body":"was that was 1998. So he's been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3429.539,"endTime":3433.289,"body":"in prison for a while. And the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3429.539,"endTime":3433.289,"body":"things that he has to say about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3433.289,"endTime":3436.139,"body":"it, and what what he understands"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3433.289,"endTime":3436.139,"body":"about himself, I think, I think"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3436.139,"endTime":3441.239,"body":"it's useful to read interviews"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3436.139,"endTime":3441.239,"body":"like that, and to then teach it."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3442.199,"endTime":3446.399,"body":"I have my students read it."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3442.199,"endTime":3446.399,"body":"Yeah, they said that they get"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3446.399,"endTime":3449.939,"body":"it, this is not the solution to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3446.399,"endTime":3449.939,"body":"anyone's problem."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3450.9,"endTime":3453.57,"body":"Right. But that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3450.9,"endTime":3453.57,"body":"seems like that approach is not"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3453.63,"endTime":3456.18,"body":"very widespread to with the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3453.63,"endTime":3456.18,"body":"media"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3457.14,"endTime":3458.91,"body":"must be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3457.14,"endTime":3458.91,"body":"don't think don't want to think"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3458.91,"endTime":3462.66,"body":"about dark things like this. You"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3458.91,"endTime":3462.66,"body":"know, it's they just want to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3462.66,"endTime":3467.79,"body":"move on. But, you know, and it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3462.66,"endTime":3467.79,"body":"doesn't necessarily help to keep"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3467.79,"endTime":3472.74,"body":"it in the news. Because then"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3467.79,"endTime":3472.74,"body":"you're just there inspiring more"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3472.74,"endTime":3476.25,"body":"people who want to be in the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3472.74,"endTime":3476.25,"body":"news who want to be the one that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3476.25,"endTime":3477.48,"body":"everybody's talking about?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3478.56,"endTime":3480.87,"body":"And what about"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3478.56,"endTime":3480.87,"body":"besides the regular, like the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3480.87,"endTime":3483.6,"body":"news media and stuff? What about"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3480.87,"endTime":3483.6,"body":"like movies and things? Like I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3483.6,"endTime":3486.57,"body":"know, Raider was inspired by"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3483.6,"endTime":3486.57,"body":"House of Wax and some other"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3486.72,"endTime":3489.96,"body":"movies and TV shows and they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3486.72,"endTime":3489.96,"body":"say, I don't know, I heard this"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3489.96,"endTime":3492.27,"body":"the other day that kids are I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3489.96,"endTime":3492.27,"body":"can't remember the number some"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3492.27,"endTime":3496.98,"body":"astronomical like, have seen"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3492.27,"endTime":3496.98,"body":"200,000 violent acts on TV and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3496.98,"endTime":3500.1,"body":"movies by the time they're 15 or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3496.98,"endTime":3500.1,"body":"some something crazy. Like, I'm"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3500.1,"endTime":3503.01,"body":"probably saying that statistic"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3500.1,"endTime":3503.01,"body":"wrong, but I mean, does that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3503.01,"endTime":3506.19,"body":"play a part? What is there"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3503.01,"endTime":3506.19,"body":"something that we I mean, at the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3506.19,"endTime":3509.4,"body":"same time, I I love watching"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3506.19,"endTime":3509.4,"body":"action movies and horror movies,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3509.4,"endTime":3511.83,"body":"and I don't I don't want to kill"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3509.4,"endTime":3511.83,"body":"anybody. So why does it affect"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3511.83,"endTime":3512.91,"body":"some people differently?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3513.18,"endTime":3515.49,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3513.18,"endTime":3515.49,"body":"And me too. I grew up on all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3515.49,"endTime":3521.28,"body":"that stuff. And I'm not gonna"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3515.49,"endTime":3521.28,"body":"say I'm okay. But when I write,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3521.85,"endTime":3524.19,"body":"well, you haven't"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3521.85,"endTime":3524.19,"body":"killed anybody that we know of."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3524.52,"endTime":3526.98,"body":"If you did, you'd know how to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3524.52,"endTime":3526.98,"body":"hide it. So"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3527.04,"endTime":3531.3,"body":"it's all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3527.04,"endTime":3531.3,"body":"about the developmental"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3531.3,"endTime":3535.62,"body":"trajectory. What is hitting any"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3531.3,"endTime":3535.62,"body":"given person at any given time"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3535.65,"endTime":3539.49,"body":"in their development? What,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3535.65,"endTime":3539.49,"body":"what's their physiology Kip?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3539.49,"endTime":3543.81,"body":"kinkel, for example, was a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3539.49,"endTime":3543.81,"body":"scrawny kid, who was unathletic."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3543.81,"endTime":3547.32,"body":"All his parents were athletic."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3543.81,"endTime":3547.32,"body":"His sister was a high achiever"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3547.32,"endTime":3551.97,"body":"and gregarious and popular and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3547.32,"endTime":3551.97,"body":"athletic and he couldn't match"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3551.97,"endTime":3555.57,"body":"up with any of that stuff. They"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3551.97,"endTime":3555.57,"body":"had so much going against him."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3556.62,"endTime":3561.45,"body":"And what made him feel powerful"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3556.62,"endTime":3561.45,"body":"was knowledge of explosives. Now"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3561.45,"endTime":3563.82,"body":"he could have stopped with that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3561.45,"endTime":3563.82,"body":"it could have left that that's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3563.82,"endTime":3568.98,"body":"fantasy. made him feel good. But"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3563.82,"endTime":3568.98,"body":"he He then got himself into"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3568.98,"endTime":3572.37,"body":"trouble and his father was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3568.98,"endTime":3572.37,"body":"calling up a military school and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3572.37,"endTime":3575.97,"body":"that and that's it. I got I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3572.37,"endTime":3575.97,"body":"gotta do something and he shot"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3575.97,"endTime":3581.97,"body":"his father. He got the gun and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3575.97,"endTime":3581.97,"body":"ammunition that incident never"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3581.97,"endTime":3585.12,"body":"happened. Perhaps he never would"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3581.97,"endTime":3585.12,"body":"have done anything."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3585.3,"endTime":3588.24,"body":"Yeah, or why"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3585.3,"endTime":3588.24,"body":"couldn't you know Oh, you really"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3588.24,"endTime":3590.85,"body":"like explosives like he could"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3588.24,"endTime":3590.85,"body":"have gone into demolition"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3590.879,"endTime":3592.739,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3590.879,"endTime":3592.739,"body":"That's what he told his parents"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3592.739,"endTime":3596.189,"body":"he wanted to do. And he could"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3592.739,"endTime":3596.189,"body":"have learned a lot that incident"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3596.219,"endTime":3598.589,"body":"that's what I'm trying to say."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3596.219,"endTime":3598.589,"body":"And then not blaming the Father"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3598.589,"endTime":3606.029,"body":"by I'm trying to say is given"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3598.589,"endTime":3606.029,"body":"the lead up to, and that it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3606.029,"endTime":3610.379,"body":"wasn't snapping, it was a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3606.029,"endTime":3610.379,"body":"developmental process such that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3610.379,"endTime":3614.549,"body":"a certain thing happened at a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3610.379,"endTime":3614.549,"body":"certain time that scared him."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3615.089,"endTime":3620.879,"body":"And he reacted strongly. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3615.089,"endTime":3620.879,"body":"once having killed the father"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3620.879,"endTime":3624.299,"body":"had to kill the mother and then"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3620.879,"endTime":3624.299,"body":"put his school shooting plan"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3624.299,"endTime":3627.299,"body":"into place, which he had gotten"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3624.299,"endTime":3627.299,"body":"from watching news of other"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3627.299,"endTime":3631.499,"body":"school shootings. So it's about"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3627.299,"endTime":3631.499,"body":"what it is about what they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3631.499,"endTime":3634.709,"body":"exposed to, to some extent, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3631.499,"endTime":3634.709,"body":"how they absorb it, how they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3634.709,"endTime":3638.129,"body":"perceive it, how they perceive"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3634.709,"endTime":3638.129,"body":"their own life story, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3638.129,"endTime":3642.509,"body":"you'll take three siblings and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3638.129,"endTime":3642.509,"body":"have, you know, all the same"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3642.719,"endTime":3645.839,"body":"exposures to the family"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3642.719,"endTime":3645.839,"body":"environment, but different"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3645.839,"endTime":3650.429,"body":"perceptions. Yeah. And why feel"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3645.839,"endTime":3650.429,"body":"resentful, one might feel"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3650.639,"endTime":3654.389,"body":"privileged, one might be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3650.639,"endTime":3654.389,"body":"indifferent, you're not going to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3654.389,"endTime":3658.739,"body":"be able to control a certain of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3654.389,"endTime":3658.739,"body":"those factors. And so that makes"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3658.739,"endTime":3661.559,"body":"it hard. There is no cookie"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3658.739,"endTime":3661.559,"body":"cutter approach to this, it"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3661.559,"endTime":3666.629,"body":"makes it difficult. And if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3661.559,"endTime":3666.629,"body":"somebody is, in fact, at risk"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3666.659,"endTime":3671.099,"body":"for potential future violence at"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3666.659,"endTime":3671.099,"body":"that age, you're going to need"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3671.099,"endTime":3674.939,"body":"to call on family counselors. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3671.099,"endTime":3674.939,"body":"mean, we could we could take the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3674.939,"endTime":3678.899,"body":"case of the kid in Michigan, who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3674.939,"endTime":3678.899,"body":"who did this school shootings"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3678.899,"endTime":3681.989,"body":"after his parents supplied the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3678.899,"endTime":3681.989,"body":"gun. And do you remember this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3681.989,"endTime":3686.819,"body":"case is the one in Michigan or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3681.989,"endTime":3686.819,"body":"so many. Now I can't use the one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3686.819,"endTime":3689.039,"body":"in Michigan, I can't remember, I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3686.819,"endTime":3689.039,"body":"can't think of the name of the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3689.039,"endTime":3694.349,"body":"school district. But they had a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3689.039,"endTime":3694.349,"body":"team in place for this purpose."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3694.379,"endTime":3698.639,"body":"And they left them out. When the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3694.379,"endTime":3698.639,"body":"parents were called in and told"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3698.939,"endTime":3704.309,"body":"your son is drawing these"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3698.939,"endTime":3704.309,"body":"violent images. We're nervous"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3704.309,"endTime":3707.069,"body":"about him, you need to take him"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3704.309,"endTime":3707.069,"body":"out and get him some counseling."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3707.069,"endTime":3709.769,"body":"And they refused to do it. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3707.069,"endTime":3709.769,"body":"turned out they had given him"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3709.769,"endTime":3715.169,"body":"the gun that he used as a gift,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3709.769,"endTime":3715.169,"body":"they had made fun of the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3715.169,"endTime":3718.709,"body":"concerns the school district had"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3715.169,"endTime":3718.709,"body":"been they took off, they ran"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3718.859,"endTime":3723.269,"body":"after he was arrested, they ran."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3718.859,"endTime":3723.269,"body":"And they're now they own this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3723.329,"endTime":3728.519,"body":"first case the parents had been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3723.329,"endTime":3728.519,"body":"prosecuted to wow, because they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3728.519,"endTime":3733.199,"body":"were directly complicit first in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3728.519,"endTime":3733.199,"body":"supplying a weapons second in"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3733.229,"endTime":3737.159,"body":"not not giving him. Apparently"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3733.229,"endTime":3737.159,"body":"there was some neglect. I'm not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3737.159,"endTime":3742.139,"body":"sure about that. But not taking"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3737.159,"endTime":3742.139,"body":"him out of school. And but the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3742.139,"endTime":3746.819,"body":"school was complicit in not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3742.139,"endTime":3746.819,"body":"using their team of people who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3746.819,"endTime":3751.319,"body":"are trained in these red flag"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3746.819,"endTime":3751.319,"body":"behaviors, that team was left"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3751.319,"endTime":3756.869,"body":"out of the equation. So that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3751.319,"endTime":3756.869,"body":"it. And I use that case in my"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3756.869,"endTime":3761.339,"body":"class, because what an"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3756.869,"endTime":3761.339,"body":"interesting study of multiple"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3761.339,"endTime":3765.329,"body":"factors that go into these"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3761.339,"endTime":3765.329,"body":"incidents, and that can, in a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3765.329,"endTime":3769.229,"body":"way never had a chance he was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3765.329,"endTime":3769.229,"body":"looking for help. And no"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3769.229,"endTime":3773.039,"body":"resources were there for him,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3769.229,"endTime":3773.039,"body":"even though they were available."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3774.089,"endTime":3777.569,"body":"Yeah, that's so that's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3774.089,"endTime":3777.569,"body":"problem. That's why could that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3777.569,"endTime":3779.459,"body":"have even ever happened? It did."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3779.76,"endTime":3781.89,"body":"So it sounds like"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3779.76,"endTime":3781.89,"body":"what you're saying is if people"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3781.89,"endTime":3784.98,"body":"are trained, and if more and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3781.89,"endTime":3784.98,"body":"more aware, there are red flags"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3784.98,"endTime":3786.24,"body":"for majority of these things,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3786.75,"endTime":3790.02,"body":"for this"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3786.75,"endTime":3790.02,"body":"for these kinds of school"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3790.02,"endTime":3794.37,"body":"shooter, young young ones, and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3790.02,"endTime":3794.37,"body":"for the mass murderers. That is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3794.37,"endTime":3797.46,"body":"not the same as the serial"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3794.37,"endTime":3797.46,"body":"killers serial killer, although"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3797.64,"endTime":3801.39,"body":"there will there will in some"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3797.64,"endTime":3801.39,"body":"cases be red flags. And if they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3801.39,"endTime":3806.25,"body":"are anger motivated, rather than"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3801.39,"endTime":3806.25,"body":"sexually motivated, they will"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3806.25,"endTime":3809.67,"body":"already have anger, they will"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3806.25,"endTime":3809.67,"body":"already have had domestic abuse,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3809.67,"endTime":3812.19,"body":"they will already have had"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3809.67,"endTime":3812.19,"body":"incidents in their background"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3812.19,"endTime":3816.0,"body":"that show their anger, and it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3812.19,"endTime":3816.0,"body":"out of control. And that anger"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3816.0,"endTime":3820.17,"body":"then emerges as murder. We do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3816.0,"endTime":3820.17,"body":"have anger compelled serial"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3820.17,"endTime":3823.32,"body":"killers, the ones that are"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3820.17,"endTime":3823.32,"body":"sexually compelled, though, have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3823.32,"endTime":3827.58,"body":"already learned how to keep"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3823.32,"endTime":3827.58,"body":"their sexual perversions under"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3827.58,"endTime":3830.4,"body":"the shield so people don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3827.58,"endTime":3830.4,"body":"really see because because it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3830.46,"endTime":3834.45,"body":"unacceptable. So people don't"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3830.46,"endTime":3834.45,"body":"see what they're doing. And so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3834.45,"endTime":3839.07,"body":"they've already learned many"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3834.45,"endTime":3839.07,"body":"habits of secrecy, in order for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3839.07,"endTime":3841.95,"body":"people not to understand what's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3839.07,"endTime":3841.95,"body":"going on with them, if they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3841.95,"endTime":3845.61,"body":"good at it, which they're not"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3841.95,"endTime":3845.61,"body":"all good at it. If they're good"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3845.61,"endTime":3848.16,"body":"at it, people are not going to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3845.61,"endTime":3848.16,"body":"see behaviors, but if they're"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3848.16,"endTime":3852.21,"body":"not very good at it, they'll be"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3848.16,"endTime":3852.21,"body":"things like, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3852.21,"endTime":3856.47,"body":"heard the family pet or cut off"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3852.21,"endTime":3856.47,"body":"its tail or hang it in a tree or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3856.47,"endTime":3862.14,"body":"something or they you know, left"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3856.47,"endTime":3862.14,"body":"pornography around or, you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3862.68,"endTime":3866.76,"body":"there are things but any of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3862.68,"endTime":3866.76,"body":"those things are easy to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3868.23,"endTime":3874.92,"body":"reinterpret in a benign way. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3868.23,"endTime":3874.92,"body":"that's that's just a phase. Is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3874.92,"endTime":3878.19,"body":"that is that that's what serves"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3874.92,"endTime":3878.19,"body":"the family unit."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3878.52,"endTime":3880.89,"body":"Is that though is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3878.52,"endTime":3880.89,"body":"there people that harm animals"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3880.89,"endTime":3883.08,"body":"as kids that don't go on to be"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3880.89,"endTime":3883.08,"body":"serial killers because they know"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3883.08,"endTime":3883.62,"body":"that's the big"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3884.79,"endTime":3888.21,"body":"the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3884.79,"endTime":3888.21,"body":"majority majority? majority"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3888.21,"endTime":3892.65,"body":"don't? Okay, correct. Every time"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3888.21,"endTime":3892.65,"body":"I see that, oh, that gives a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3892.68,"endTime":3895.56,"body":"budding serial killer is like no"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3892.68,"endTime":3895.56,"body":"they're not."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3896.34,"endTime":3900.33,"body":"Okay. So, do not it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3896.34,"endTime":3900.33,"body":"is a jump but most of lot of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3900.33,"endTime":3902.94,"body":"serial killers did harm animals"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3900.33,"endTime":3902.94,"body":"and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3902.97,"endTime":3906.57,"body":"not all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3902.97,"endTime":3906.57,"body":"did not all. Yeah, so it's hard"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3906.57,"endTime":3909.96,"body":"to make that a necessary or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3906.57,"endTime":3909.96,"body":"sufficient condition."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3910.2,"endTime":3912.36,"body":"Right? There's no"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3910.2,"endTime":3912.36,"body":"perfect formula for any of this"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3912.36,"endTime":3912.6,"body":"stuff."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3912.63,"endTime":3914.52,"body":"There is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3912.63,"endTime":3914.52,"body":"none. There's no profile of a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3914.52,"endTime":3919.08,"body":"serial killer, as the FBI says"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3914.52,"endTime":3919.08,"body":"repeatedly stop trying to make"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3919.08,"endTime":3922.77,"body":"there be is no blueprint now"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3919.08,"endTime":3922.77,"body":"against which to measure people"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3922.77,"endTime":3925.53,"body":"to see, are they or aren't they?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3922.77,"endTime":3925.53,"body":"We don't have that."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3925.86,"endTime":3929.13,"body":"No. It is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3925.86,"endTime":3929.13,"body":"interesting to study though and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3929.13,"endTime":3932.85,"body":"to look at as, as, as you know,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3929.13,"endTime":3932.85,"body":"this is your life's work. It's,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3933.06,"endTime":3935.64,"body":"it's fascinating. Hopefully,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3933.06,"endTime":3935.64,"body":"there's nothing wrong with me"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3935.64,"endTime":3938.31,"body":"that I'm so interested in it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3935.64,"endTime":3938.31,"body":"because it's just so"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3938.31,"endTime":3939.0,"body":"fascinating."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3939.15,"endTime":3940.83,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3939.15,"endTime":3940.83,"body":"it's fascinating, because it's a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3940.86,"endTime":3946.71,"body":"it's an aspect of the human mind"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3940.86,"endTime":3946.71,"body":"that is difficult to understand,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3946.74,"endTime":3951.12,"body":"how do they develop in this way?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3946.74,"endTime":3951.12,"body":"And why did they want to stay"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3951.12,"endTime":3956.19,"body":"this way? And especially because"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3951.12,"endTime":3956.19,"body":"it could, it can lose them"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3956.22,"endTime":3959.97,"body":"everything that they have, if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3956.22,"endTime":3959.97,"body":"they're older, and they have"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3960.03,"endTime":3964.86,"body":"wife and family like the Golden"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3960.03,"endTime":3964.86,"body":"State killer, and Dennis Rader"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3964.86,"endTime":3968.25,"body":"and a few others that can name"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3964.86,"endTime":3968.25,"body":"Why did they put all that at"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3968.25,"endTime":3970.23,"body":"risk? Well, because it's really"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3970.29,"endTime":3975.24,"body":"hot. The urge is so"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3970.29,"endTime":3975.24,"body":"great. It supersedes the fear of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3975.24,"endTime":3976.65,"body":"going to jail for the rest of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3975.24,"endTime":3976.65,"body":"your life."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3977.16,"endTime":3979.26,"body":"Is that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3977.16,"endTime":3979.26,"body":"just The urge is the experience"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3979.26,"endTime":3984.42,"body":"it's so raw, it's so they talk"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3979.26,"endTime":3984.42,"body":"about it as being this this is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3984.48,"endTime":3988.35,"body":"the life force right here. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3984.48,"endTime":3988.35,"body":"in fact, you if you read Dr."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3988.35,"endTime":3992.25,"body":"Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, that that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3988.35,"endTime":3992.25,"body":"phrasing is in that book, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3992.25,"endTime":3996.78,"body":"from the 19th century, when I'm"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3992.25,"endTime":3996.78,"body":"Mr. Hyde, that is when things"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3996.81,"endTime":4001.88,"body":"are exaggerated, heightened my"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":3996.81,"endTime":4001.88,"body":"senses and feel so powerful. I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4001.88,"endTime":4006.89,"body":"feel like nothing can stop me."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4001.88,"endTime":4006.89,"body":"That's heady. That's addicting."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4008.84,"endTime":4011.69,"body":"Scary stuff. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4008.84,"endTime":4011.69,"body":"All right. Well, thank you so"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4011.69,"endTime":4014.6,"body":"much for doing this. I always"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4011.69,"endTime":4014.6,"body":"end each episode with a charity."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4014.6,"endTime":4017.84,"body":"And you have you have three you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4014.6,"endTime":4017.84,"body":"had the so tell me what the Cold"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4017.84,"endTime":4019.22,"body":"Case Foundation"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4020.51,"endTime":4024.35,"body":"that is"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4020.51,"endTime":4024.35,"body":"an organized effort by a number"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4024.35,"endTime":4029.18,"body":"of experts who work on cold"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4024.35,"endTime":4029.18,"body":"cases to try to solve them and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4029.18,"endTime":4035.96,"body":"work on John and Jane Doe cases"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4029.18,"endTime":4035.96,"body":"that might not even have names."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4035.99,"endTime":4039.08,"body":"So they want to try first of all"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4035.99,"endTime":4039.08,"body":"to identify them and give them"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4039.08,"endTime":4044.09,"body":"their name. And then and then if"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4039.08,"endTime":4044.09,"body":"they died by murder to identify"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4044.09,"endTime":4045.02,"body":"the person who did it."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4045.59,"endTime":4048.14,"body":"Okay, so that one"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4045.59,"endTime":4048.14,"body":"is one and then women for"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4048.14,"endTime":4050.6,"body":"decels. They fund student"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4048.14,"endTime":4050.6,"body":"projects."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4050.78,"endTime":4052.76,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4050.78,"endTime":4052.76,"body":"that's at my university women"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4052.76,"endTime":4057.53,"body":"for DeSales. Money not not one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4052.76,"endTime":4057.53,"body":"bit goes to any administrative"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4057.53,"endTime":4062.84,"body":"fees. Every single donation goes"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4057.53,"endTime":4062.84,"body":"to support student projects and"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4062.84,"endTime":4066.86,"body":"student travel, so that they can"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4062.84,"endTime":4066.86,"body":"maybe take a trip where they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4066.86,"endTime":4071.42,"body":"build a house in some other"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4066.86,"endTime":4071.42,"body":"country for people who can't who"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4071.42,"endTime":4075.32,"body":"don't have any means. Or they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4071.42,"endTime":4075.32,"body":"learn a skill or that you know,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4075.32,"endTime":4078.2,"body":"something. So everything that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4075.32,"endTime":4078.2,"body":"through this particular"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4078.2,"endTime":4081.32,"body":"organization goes directly to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4078.2,"endTime":4081.32,"body":"support students."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4081.41,"endTime":4084.8,"body":"Okay, and then the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4081.41,"endTime":4084.8,"body":"Bethlehem Mounted Police, the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4084.8,"endTime":4085.49,"body":"Bethel amount of"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4085.49,"endTime":4087.41,"body":"police I"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4085.49,"endTime":4087.41,"body":"used to take care of the horses"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4088.55,"endTime":4089.27,"body":"love that."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4090.2,"endTime":4091.97,"body":"You still have time"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4090.2,"endTime":4091.97,"body":"to take care of horses."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4093.41,"endTime":4095.96,"body":"I used"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4093.41,"endTime":4095.96,"body":"it I spent four years doing that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4095.96,"endTime":4099.23,"body":"and then help them by with"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4095.96,"endTime":4099.23,"body":"fundraising. I helped put"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4099.23,"endTime":4102.71,"body":"together calendars and things"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4099.23,"endTime":4102.71,"body":"that could sell so that's that's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4102.71,"endTime":4103.88,"body":"another one that I support."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4104.15,"endTime":4106.76,"body":"Okay, and then I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4104.15,"endTime":4106.76,"body":"wanted to before we it's not a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4106.76,"endTime":4110.63,"body":"charity but I did want to pitch"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4106.76,"endTime":4110.63,"body":"your show that you are you still"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4110.63,"endTime":4111.92,"body":"doing the Murder House flip the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4112.88,"endTime":4116.96,"body":"second"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4112.88,"endTime":4116.96,"body":"season. In this we have six"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4116.96,"endTime":4120.32,"body":"houses including the Jodi Arias"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4116.96,"endTime":4120.32,"body":"house. Oh, that's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4120.32,"endTime":4124.67,"body":"an that's an"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4120.32,"endTime":4124.67,"body":"Arizona that's big in Arizona."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4124.82,"endTime":4127.91,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4124.82,"endTime":4127.91,"body":"And and the house had not been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4127.94,"endTime":4134.9,"body":"thoroughly redone before. So we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4127.94,"endTime":4134.9,"body":"we went in and our crew, our"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4134.9,"endTime":4139.01,"body":"designers redesign the spot"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4134.9,"endTime":4139.01,"body":"where Travis was brutally"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4139.01,"endTime":4142.34,"body":"slaughtered and dragged to the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4139.01,"endTime":4142.34,"body":"shower and none of that had been"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4142.34,"endTime":4143.48,"body":"renovated before."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4143.9,"endTime":4146.78,"body":"So how much do you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4143.9,"endTime":4146.78,"body":"got it you just turn that into a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4146.78,"endTime":4150.08,"body":"completely different room? Or do"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4146.78,"endTime":4150.08,"body":"you just Yeah, okay. It's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4150.2,"endTime":4153.23,"body":"it's"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4150.2,"endTime":4153.23,"body":"always the murder site. The idea"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4153.23,"endTime":4158.6,"body":"of Murder House flip is a murder"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4153.23,"endTime":4158.6,"body":"occurred in a house or yard."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4159.02,"endTime":4162.2,"body":"It's because because one time we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4159.02,"endTime":4162.2,"body":"did a yard where seven bodies"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4162.2,"endTime":4165.41,"body":"had been had been brought"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4162.2,"endTime":4165.41,"body":"buried, and they didn't really"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4165.41,"endTime":4168.68,"body":"want to change the house, but"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4165.41,"endTime":4168.68,"body":"they did want you know, a better"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4168.68,"endTime":4173.27,"body":"yard and they got one. So we we"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4168.68,"endTime":4173.27,"body":"will go into the murder area,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4173.78,"endTime":4178.07,"body":"which has an aura of creepiness,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4173.78,"endTime":4178.07,"body":"it makes them avoid the place or"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4178.1,"endTime":4182.75,"body":"makes the house depressing. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4178.1,"endTime":4182.75,"body":"we'll completely redo that area"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4182.75,"endTime":4187.7,"body":"and also often give them more"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4182.75,"endTime":4187.7,"body":"landscaping or a great backyard"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4187.7,"endTime":4193.22,"body":"or they get more than just a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4187.7,"endTime":4193.22,"body":"makeover of the murder spot. But"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4193.22,"endTime":4196.07,"body":"that certainly is there was one"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4193.22,"endTime":4196.07,"body":"that had a bathroom the blue"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4196.07,"endTime":4199.49,"body":"Murder House had a bathroom"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4196.07,"endTime":4199.49,"body":"where the man had dismembered"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4199.49,"endTime":4202.64,"body":"his wife And he was caught"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4199.49,"endTime":4202.64,"body":"cooking or parts on the stove."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4202.64,"endTime":4206.69,"body":"So we got, we got several areas"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4202.64,"endTime":4206.69,"body":"of the house here that need"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4206.69,"endTime":4211.34,"body":"attention. But also we painted"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4206.69,"endTime":4211.34,"body":"the outside. So it wasn't the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4211.34,"endTime":4215.06,"body":"blue murder house anymore. And"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4211.34,"endTime":4215.06,"body":"it was became a sweet seaside"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4215.06,"endTime":4218.3,"body":"cottage white cottage that"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4215.06,"endTime":4218.3,"body":"didn't look anything like the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4218.3,"endTime":4219.29,"body":"blue Murder House."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4219.35,"endTime":4221.3,"body":"So who's buying"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4219.35,"endTime":4221.3,"body":"these houses? Is that people"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4221.3,"endTime":4224.48,"body":"that kind of get off on that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4221.3,"endTime":4224.48,"body":"there was a murder there? Or is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4224.48,"endTime":4226.97,"body":"it they get a discount? So it's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4224.48,"endTime":4226.97,"body":"cheaper. So it's cheaper?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4227.6,"endTime":4230.69,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4227.6,"endTime":4230.69,"body":"the whole idea of the show was"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4230.72,"endTime":4233.69,"body":"these are stigmatized"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4230.72,"endTime":4233.69,"body":"properties. And so they're much"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4233.69,"endTime":4236.99,"body":"lower in value than they should"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4233.69,"endTime":4236.99,"body":"be because of murder happened"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4236.99,"endTime":4240.83,"body":"there. But it's not the houses"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4236.99,"endTime":4240.83,"body":"fault. Yeah. And that that value"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4240.83,"endTime":4246.62,"body":"can be restored by healing the"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4240.83,"endTime":4246.62,"body":"murder spot. And that you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4246.68,"endTime":4249.32,"body":"have you've written"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4246.68,"endTime":4249.32,"body":"books on paranormal and ghosts."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4250.07,"endTime":4252.98,"body":"Yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4250.07,"endTime":4252.98,"body":"we had we had two paranormal"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4252.98,"endTime":4254.0,"body":"incidents in these"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4254.09,"endTime":4257.0,"body":"houses. Oh, really,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4254.09,"endTime":4257.0,"body":"is that,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4257.57,"endTime":4259.7,"body":"in fact,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4257.57,"endTime":4259.7,"body":"in fact, to have this murder"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4259.7,"endTime":4263.96,"body":"stories that people told us they"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4259.7,"endTime":4263.96,"body":"had experienced ghostly activity"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4264.14,"endTime":4265.22,"body":"around the murder site?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4265.67,"endTime":4269.48,"body":"So you think the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4265.67,"endTime":4269.48,"body":"remodeling changes that? Do they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4269.51,"endTime":4271.55,"body":"do bring in a priest or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4269.51,"endTime":4271.55,"body":"something to do"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4272.03,"endTime":4275.48,"body":"saging?"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4272.03,"endTime":4275.48,"body":"Yeah. In fact, our original"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4275.48,"endTime":4283.67,"body":"pitch was stage sage sell. But"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4275.48,"endTime":4283.67,"body":"it turned out we weren't gonna"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4283.67,"endTime":4287.12,"body":"go buy these houses and flipped"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4283.67,"endTime":4287.12,"body":"them. We were going to make them"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4287.12,"endTime":4291.56,"body":"over. Okay. So they sometimes"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4287.12,"endTime":4291.56,"body":"the owner buys it and finds out"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4291.56,"endTime":4294.59,"body":"there was a murder in it. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4291.56,"endTime":4294.59,"body":"you spy because it's a great"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4294.59,"endTime":4297.29,"body":"price. So and then they find out"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4294.59,"endTime":4297.29,"body":"oh, my God,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4297.29,"endTime":4299.51,"body":"this is what I have"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4297.29,"endTime":4299.51,"body":"to disclose that right, I think"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4299.69,"endTime":4302.03,"body":"up to"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4299.69,"endTime":4302.03,"body":"three years and after that, no."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4302.39,"endTime":4305.57,"body":"Oh, really? Yeah. So that's how"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4302.39,"endTime":4305.57,"body":"people buy these houses without"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4305.57,"endTime":4306.14,"body":"knowing"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4307.58,"endTime":4308.93,"body":"what channels it's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4307.58,"endTime":4308.93,"body":"gonna be on."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4309.5,"endTime":4312.47,"body":"It's on"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4309.5,"endTime":4312.47,"body":"the Roku network. The streaming"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4312.47,"endTime":4315.5,"body":"service for roku. If you have a"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4312.47,"endTime":4315.5,"body":"Roku device, you have a Roku."},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4316.52,"endTime":4319.46,"body":"And it's an it's one of the Roku"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4316.52,"endTime":4319.46,"body":"originals."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4319.52,"endTime":4322.34,"body":"Awesome. Well, very"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4319.52,"endTime":4322.34,"body":"cool. You got a lot of stuff to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4322.97,"endTime":4325.52,"body":"sell there shows books, all"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4322.97,"endTime":4325.52,"body":"sorts of stuff. So you have to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4325.52,"endTime":4327.95,"body":"come back. Maybe I'll read"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4325.52,"endTime":4327.95,"body":"another one of your books and we"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4327.95,"endTime":4330.5,"body":"can talk for another hour. All"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4327.95,"endTime":4330.5,"body":"right. Thank you so much,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4330.5,"endTime":4331.01,"body":"Catherine,"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4331.67,"endTime":4332.24,"body":"for"},{"speaker":"Dr. Katherine Ramsland","startTime":4331.67,"endTime":4332.24,"body":"having me."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4333.38,"endTime":4335.66,"body":"Thank you again to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4333.38,"endTime":4335.66,"body":"Dr. Catherine grandslam."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4335.93,"endTime":4339.08,"body":"Fascinating stuff. Again. She"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4335.93,"endTime":4339.08,"body":"has a lot of books you can read"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4339.08,"endTime":4342.35,"body":"like 70 the BTK one is very"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4339.08,"endTime":4342.35,"body":"interesting and very"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4342.35,"endTime":4345.86,"body":"descriptive. The show on a\u0026e"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4342.35,"endTime":4345.86,"body":"That's based on that is also"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4345.86,"endTime":4349.31,"body":"very good. And I want to check"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4345.86,"endTime":4349.31,"body":"out that Murder House flip show."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4349.58,"endTime":4353.6,"body":"You can follow Catherine on"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4349.58,"endTime":4353.6,"body":"social media or buy her books,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4353.81,"endTime":4357.08,"body":"watch some of her TV appearances"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4353.81,"endTime":4357.08,"body":"or donate to the charity she"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4357.08,"endTime":4361.04,"body":"mentioned. And if you enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4357.08,"endTime":4361.04,"body":"this episode, make sure to check"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4361.04,"endTime":4363.89,"body":"out some of my other interviews,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4361.04,"endTime":4363.89,"body":"like the one with Thomas"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4363.89,"endTime":4367.04,"body":"Hargrove, and the murder"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4363.89,"endTime":4367.04,"body":"Accountability Project, or the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4367.04,"endTime":4369.92,"body":"episode I just did with Kerry"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4367.04,"endTime":4369.92,"body":"Spencer about sex trafficking."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4370.28,"endTime":4373.16,"body":"And make sure to subscribe."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4370.28,"endTime":4373.16,"body":"Wherever you listen to that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4373.16,"endTime":4376.01,"body":"you'll be able to catch new"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4373.16,"endTime":4376.01,"body":"episodes. Thanks for listening."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4376.01,"endTime":4378.5,"body":"Have a great rest of your day"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4376.01,"endTime":4378.5,"body":"and shoot for the moon."}]}