{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":0.21,"endTime":2.07,"body":"Hey guys, stick"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":0.21,"endTime":2.07,"body":"around. We have a great"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2.07,"endTime":4.56,"body":"interview coming up with Thomas"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2.07,"endTime":4.56,"body":"Hargrove of the murder"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4.56,"endTime":7.32,"body":"Accountability Project. And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":4.56,"endTime":7.32,"body":"we're going to talk about"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":7.32,"endTime":10.41,"body":"murders in the US. And I think a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":7.32,"endTime":10.41,"body":"lot of these statistics are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":10.41,"endTime":13.32,"body":"going to shock you. And we're"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":10.41,"endTime":13.32,"body":"going to discuss serial killers,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":13.44,"endTime":16.26,"body":"some ones from the past, but as"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":13.44,"endTime":16.26,"body":"well as some people that may be"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":16.26,"endTime":18.93,"body":"out there right now that are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":16.26,"endTime":18.93,"body":"still killing. And this is a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":18.93,"endTime":22.53,"body":"fascinating interview. You won't"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":18.93,"endTime":22.53,"body":"want to miss it. Quick note"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":22.53,"endTime":25.89,"body":"though, there are some technical"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":22.53,"endTime":25.89,"body":"difficulties. My camera shuts"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":25.89,"endTime":28.8,"body":"off about 40 minutes in. The"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":25.89,"endTime":28.8,"body":"good news is, is we don't lose"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":28.83,"endTime":31.11,"body":"audio. So if you're just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":28.83,"endTime":31.11,"body":"listening, you won't even notice"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":31.11,"endTime":33.84,"body":"this. And I don't think it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":31.11,"endTime":33.84,"body":"affects the interview very much."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":34.14,"endTime":36.3,"body":"It's a very fascinating topic"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":34.14,"endTime":36.3,"body":"enjoy."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":49.83,"endTime":53.22,"body":"Please welcome Thomas Hargrove"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":49.83,"endTime":53.22,"body":"to the Czech shoe podcast. How"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":53.22,"endTime":53.91,"body":"are you doing today?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":54.419,"endTime":55.709,"body":"I'm good."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":54.419,"endTime":55.709,"body":"Chuck, how are you?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":55.74,"endTime":57.99,"body":"I'm great. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":55.74,"endTime":57.99,"body":"I'm really excited to talk to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":57.99,"endTime":61.17,"body":"you. I appreciate you taking the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":57.99,"endTime":61.17,"body":"time to do this. So yeah, let's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":61.17,"endTime":64.83,"body":"just dive right in your you are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":61.17,"endTime":64.83,"body":"a retired Washington, DC"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":64.83,"endTime":68.37,"body":"investigative journalist and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":64.83,"endTime":68.37,"body":"former White House correspondent"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":68.37,"endTime":72.15,"body":"so before we get to your the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":68.37,"endTime":72.15,"body":"map, the murder Accountability"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":72.15,"endTime":74.64,"body":"Project, tell me a little bit"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":72.15,"endTime":74.64,"body":"about what that was like just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":74.64,"endTime":76.86,"body":"being investigative journalists"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":74.64,"endTime":76.86,"body":"in DC. That must have been"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":76.86,"endTime":77.49,"body":"interesting."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":78.48,"endTime":81.99,"body":"Oh, yeah. It's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":78.48,"endTime":81.99,"body":"a wonderful, wonderful job."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":82.23,"endTime":85.5,"body":"Everyone who's not a lifetime"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":82.23,"endTime":85.5,"body":"reporter should be jealous"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":85.5,"endTime":90.93,"body":"because you get to experience so"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":85.5,"endTime":90.93,"body":"much of life. I I've the things"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":90.93,"endTime":94.44,"body":"I've done, I've flown on to an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":90.93,"endTime":94.44,"body":"aircraft carrier and done a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":94.44,"endTime":99.45,"body":"catapult takeoff. I've been in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":94.44,"endTime":99.45,"body":"the the death chamber for next,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":99.57,"endTime":106.23,"body":"a botched execution. I've I've"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":99.57,"endTime":106.23,"body":"talked to just about every kind"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":106.23,"endTime":113.67,"body":"of elected official. I've been"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":106.23,"endTime":113.67,"body":"just in the aftermath of a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":113.67,"endTime":118.77,"body":"tornado and helped pull debris"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":113.67,"endTime":118.77,"body":"off someone who sat up straight"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":118.77,"endTime":121.56,"body":"and looked at me and said, you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":118.77,"endTime":121.56,"body":"know, it really does sound like"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":121.56,"endTime":126.09,"body":"a freight train. Wow. It's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":121.56,"endTime":126.09,"body":"amazing how much of life you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":126.09,"endTime":131.19,"body":"experience as a as a journalist,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":126.09,"endTime":131.19,"body":"and it was a wonderful way to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":131.19,"endTime":132.06,"body":"spend a lifetime."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":132.39,"endTime":135.39,"body":"Yeah. So then you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":132.39,"endTime":135.39,"body":"retire from that. And then was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":135.39,"endTime":139.95,"body":"it 2010, you kind of started"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":135.39,"endTime":139.95,"body":"this project, explain how the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":139.95,"endTime":142.86,"body":"murder Accountability Project"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":139.95,"endTime":142.86,"body":"because it was found in 2015."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":142.86,"endTime":144.99,"body":"But didn't it start with"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":142.86,"endTime":144.99,"body":"something back in 2010 that you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":144.99,"endTime":145.32,"body":"did."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":145.62,"endTime":148.92,"body":"While I was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":145.62,"endTime":148.92,"body":"still a reporter. I did a year"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":148.92,"endTime":153.15,"body":"long project. Looking at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":148.92,"endTime":153.15,"body":"unsolved homicides in the United"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":153.15,"endTime":156.72,"body":"States, it was called murder"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":153.15,"endTime":156.72,"body":"mysteries. And it was a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":156.72,"endTime":161.25,"body":"wonderful project and won a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":156.72,"endTime":161.25,"body":"bunch of awards. But it alerted"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":161.25,"endTime":165.21,"body":"me to what's broken in how we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":161.25,"endTime":165.21,"body":"handle homicide in America, in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":165.21,"endTime":168.96,"body":"fact, how we handle crime"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":165.21,"endTime":168.96,"body":"investigation, we do it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":168.99,"endTime":172.14,"body":"differently than the rest of the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":168.99,"endTime":172.14,"body":"world, most of the world and we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":172.14,"endTime":176.55,"body":"don't do it better. To be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":172.14,"endTime":176.55,"body":"honest. There are so many things"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":176.55,"endTime":180.54,"body":"that homicide detectives do not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":176.55,"endTime":180.54,"body":"have, starting with a master"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":180.54,"endTime":184.59,"body":"list of murder. If you were in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":180.54,"endTime":184.59,"body":"London, and asked the home"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":184.59,"endTime":188.31,"body":"office to give you a printout of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":184.59,"endTime":188.31,"body":"every unsolved homicide in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":188.31,"endTime":192.3,"body":"England, they could do that. We"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":188.31,"endTime":192.3,"body":"cannot do that here in the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":192.3,"endTime":196.23,"body":"United States. It's a very"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":192.3,"endTime":196.23,"body":"decentralized system. And there"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":196.23,"endTime":200.46,"body":"is no master list. And so the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":196.23,"endTime":200.46,"body":"first thing we did when I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":200.76,"endTime":205.83,"body":"retired in 2015, I formed a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":200.76,"endTime":205.83,"body":"nonprofit organization. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":205.83,"endTime":209.94,"body":"among the things that we tried"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":205.83,"endTime":209.94,"body":"to do is to create without"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":209.94,"endTime":213.96,"body":"debate or dispute, the most"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":209.94,"endTime":213.96,"body":"complete accounting of homicide."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":214.32,"endTime":218.67,"body":"If you go to our website at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":214.32,"endTime":218.67,"body":"murder data.org You can look up"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":218.7,"endTime":222.42,"body":"if you know someone who was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":218.7,"endTime":222.42,"body":"murdered, you probably will find"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":222.42,"endTime":227.04,"body":"that record in our data. Mm hmm."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":222.42,"endTime":227.04,"body":"So, um, detectives use that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":227.04,"endTime":232.2,"body":"website to test theories. Okay."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":227.04,"endTime":232.2,"body":"Appear before homicide detective"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":232.32,"endTime":234.99,"body":"gatherings to demonstrate how to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":232.32,"endTime":234.99,"body":"use the website."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":235.08,"endTime":237.72,"body":"Yeah. So before you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":235.08,"endTime":237.72,"body":"started that, though, there was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":237.72,"endTime":241.35,"body":"a couple things that didn't"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":237.72,"endTime":241.35,"body":"exist. There was the Uniform"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":241.35,"endTime":244.35,"body":"Crime Report, which was supposed"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":241.35,"endTime":244.35,"body":"to be a national report on major"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":244.35,"endTime":247.86,"body":"crime and whether they're solved"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":244.35,"endTime":247.86,"body":"or not. And then in 1989, they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":247.86,"endTime":252.06,"body":"made it a law. But you said the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":247.86,"endTime":252.06,"body":"FBI is not using it. They're not"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":252.06,"endTime":254.85,"body":"reporting. And that's what it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":252.06,"endTime":254.85,"body":"was designed for. Correct?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":255.63,"endTime":257.13,"body":"Yeah. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":255.63,"endTime":257.13,"body":"that's a that's a real"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":257.13,"endTime":260.97,"body":"interesting story. About three"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":257.13,"endTime":260.97,"body":"years ago, a friend of mine who"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":260.97,"endTime":266.19,"body":"happened to be an employee of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":260.97,"endTime":266.19,"body":"the Interior Department, came up"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":266.19,"endTime":270.0,"body":"to me and asked what what do we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":266.19,"endTime":270.0,"body":"know about Native American"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":270.0,"endTime":273.39,"body":"homicides? And I told them well,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":270.0,"endTime":273.39,"body":"one thing we know is they're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":273.39,"endTime":277.29,"body":"often not reported. And he said"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":273.39,"endTime":277.29,"body":"what? And the next thing I know"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":277.29,"endTime":284.25,"body":"I'm face to face with the the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":277.29,"endTime":284.25,"body":"Deputy Secretary of the Interior"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":284.25,"endTime":289.29,"body":"for Indian Affairs, and Tara"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":284.25,"endTime":289.29,"body":"Sweeney is her name was her"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":289.29,"endTime":293.49,"body":"name. She's gone now. And we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":289.29,"endTime":293.49,"body":"talked about that we gave her a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":293.49,"endTime":299.97,"body":"report showing where all of the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":293.49,"endTime":299.97,"body":"reported Indian murder murder"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":300.0,"endTime":303.96,"body":"occurred. And the next day her"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":300.0,"endTime":303.96,"body":"secretary called me and said,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":303.96,"endTime":307.44,"body":"Would you put that report"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":303.96,"endTime":307.44,"body":"online? And we're nothing if not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":307.44,"endTime":309.99,"body":"a tool of the Interior"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":307.44,"endTime":309.99,"body":"Department, we saw no reason not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":309.99,"endTime":315.12,"body":"to do that. So we posted it. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":309.99,"endTime":315.12,"body":"a few weeks later, journalists"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":315.15,"endTime":319.92,"body":"out west started contacting us"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":315.15,"endTime":319.92,"body":"to say that, yeah, they can see"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":320.07,"endTime":325.35,"body":"very prominent homicides of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":320.07,"endTime":325.35,"body":"Indians that were not in the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":325.35,"endTime":328.14,"body":"data. And every time that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":325.35,"endTime":328.14,"body":"happened, I would ask the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":328.14,"endTime":331.56,"body":"journalist, well, who was the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":328.14,"endTime":331.56,"body":"agency that investigated? And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":331.56,"endTime":336.69,"body":"every time the answer was the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":331.56,"endTime":336.69,"body":"FBI. And that's when it all came"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":336.69,"endTime":341.37,"body":"together. The FBI, up until a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":336.69,"endTime":341.37,"body":"year ago, has never reported a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":341.37,"endTime":346.5,"body":"homicide to itself. The FBI runs"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":341.37,"endTime":346.5,"body":"the Uniform Crime Report, but it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":346.5,"endTime":351.6,"body":"had never documented any of the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":346.5,"endTime":351.6,"body":"cases that it investigates. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":351.6,"endTime":354.75,"body":"it turns out, this is in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":351.6,"endTime":354.75,"body":"violation of a law that Congress"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":354.75,"endTime":359.01,"body":"passed, Congress became aware of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":354.75,"endTime":359.01,"body":"this in 1988. And they passed"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":359.01,"endTime":362.94,"body":"the Uniform Federal crime"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":359.01,"endTime":362.94,"body":"reporting act of 1988. It took"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":362.94,"endTime":366.9,"body":"effect on January 1 of the next"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":362.94,"endTime":366.9,"body":"year, we're requiring all"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":366.9,"endTime":370.05,"body":"federal law enforcement,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":366.9,"endTime":370.05,"body":"including the FBI, including the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":370.05,"endTime":374.19,"body":"Department of Defense, to report"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":370.05,"endTime":374.19,"body":"data to the official accounting"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":374.19,"endTime":379.41,"body":"of crime, and nobody obeyed that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":374.19,"endTime":379.41,"body":"law, it was completely ignored."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":380.04,"endTime":383.46,"body":"And so lawsuit against the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":380.04,"endTime":383.46,"body":"basically the federal"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":383.46,"endTime":384.96,"body":"government, it's still pending,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":383.46,"endTime":384.96,"body":"it's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":385.02,"endTime":387.21,"body":"pending. Okay. And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":385.02,"endTime":387.21,"body":"then because then there's this"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":387.21,"endTime":390.51,"body":"other thing, the FBI"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":387.21,"endTime":390.51,"body":"supplemental homicide report"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":390.51,"endTime":392.55,"body":"that was created later, that was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":390.51,"endTime":392.55,"body":"supposed to have more"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":392.55,"endTime":397.77,"body":"information with age, race, sex"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":392.55,"endTime":397.77,"body":"circumstances, weapons used? And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":397.86,"endTime":400.47,"body":"did is how's that going? Are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":397.86,"endTime":400.47,"body":"they using that one?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":401.04,"endTime":403.26,"body":"Well, they've"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":401.04,"endTime":403.26,"body":"never the FBI has never reported"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":403.26,"endTime":406.83,"body":"cases, it's handled to that,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":403.26,"endTime":406.83,"body":"although they did just a few"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":406.83,"endTime":411.06,"body":"months ago, for the first time"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":406.83,"endTime":411.06,"body":"ever. And because we advise them"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":411.06,"endTime":414.09,"body":"that they're breaking the law,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":411.06,"endTime":414.09,"body":"they started to report the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":414.09,"endTime":419.67,"body":"reported three cases, to the SH"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":414.09,"endTime":419.67,"body":"er and to the UCR. Okay, three"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":419.67,"endTime":423.21,"body":"is not the right number. We went"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":419.67,"endTime":423.21,"body":"through their press releases and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":423.21,"endTime":428.46,"body":"found at least 16 cases that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":423.21,"endTime":428.46,"body":"they put out press releases"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":428.46,"endTime":433.23,"body":"about Indian homicides that are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":428.46,"endTime":433.23,"body":"not in the data. So we can"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":433.23,"endTime":435.9,"body":"document that they're under"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":433.23,"endTime":435.9,"body":"reporting, but at least they've"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":435.9,"endTime":438.15,"body":"started to report something. So"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":435.9,"endTime":438.15,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":438.99,"endTime":441.45,"body":"Explain to me or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":438.99,"endTime":441.45,"body":"explain to my audience what's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":441.45,"endTime":444.27,"body":"going on. And I don't even know"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":441.45,"endTime":444.27,"body":"if I really know exactly what it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":444.27,"endTime":447.18,"body":"is. But I know that there's some"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":444.27,"endTime":447.18,"body":"sort of basically epidemic with"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":447.18,"endTime":450.75,"body":"Native American women, there's a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":447.18,"endTime":450.75,"body":"lot of these murders that these"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":450.75,"endTime":453.57,"body":"women are just going missing,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":450.75,"endTime":453.57,"body":"and it's not being reported or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":453.6,"endTime":456.39,"body":"even was it half of these women"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":453.6,"endTime":456.39,"body":"that would go missing, the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":456.39,"endTime":457.35,"body":"murders are not solved?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":458.67,"endTime":462.21,"body":"We don't know."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":458.67,"endTime":462.21,"body":"You know, to quote, The Great"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":462.54,"endTime":466.71,"body":"Bob Woodward. We don't know what"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":462.54,"endTime":466.71,"body":"we don't know. And since these"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":466.71,"endTime":470.85,"body":"cases are not reported, we don't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":466.71,"endTime":470.85,"body":"know. So we're trying we're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":470.85,"endTime":475.89,"body":"trying to retro, that we're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":470.85,"endTime":475.89,"body":"trying to get those cases. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":476.13,"endTime":478.74,"body":"the first thing we're going to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":476.13,"endTime":478.74,"body":"do is see if there is an unusual"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":478.74,"endTime":483.69,"body":"pattern of unsolved Native"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":478.74,"endTime":483.69,"body":"American murders of women. That"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":483.69,"endTime":488.37,"body":"is the narrative and it is there"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":483.69,"endTime":488.37,"body":"are now seven state Commission's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":488.37,"endTime":491.73,"body":"and one federal commission that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":488.37,"endTime":491.73,"body":"have been appointed to look into"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":491.73,"endTime":495.42,"body":"this. And they've all"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":491.73,"endTime":495.42,"body":"acknowledged that the data are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":495.42,"endTime":496.5,"body":"terrible. That's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":496.53,"endTime":500.7,"body":"yeah. It's really"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":496.53,"endTime":500.7,"body":"scary. Now who typically if"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":500.7,"endTime":503.1,"body":"somebody because I know they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":500.7,"endTime":503.1,"body":"have different laws, so if"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":503.1,"endTime":507.06,"body":"somebody dies, a Native American"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":503.1,"endTime":507.06,"body":"woman on a reservation dies, who"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":507.06,"endTime":509.46,"body":"would typically be in charge of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":507.06,"endTime":509.46,"body":"trying to solve that murder?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":509.46,"endTime":512.79,"body":"Would it be the FBI? Or would it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":509.46,"endTime":512.79,"body":"be the Native American police"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":512.79,"endTime":513.15,"body":"or?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":514.44,"endTime":517.29,"body":"The answer's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":514.44,"endTime":517.29,"body":"yes. So it varies from"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":517.29,"endTime":522.75,"body":"reservation to reservation. In"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":517.29,"endTime":522.75,"body":"many places, the FBI has been"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":522.75,"endTime":526.2,"body":"designated as the lead"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":522.75,"endTime":526.2,"body":"investigative agency. Also, the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":526.2,"endTime":532.2,"body":"Bureau of Indian Affairs has a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":526.2,"endTime":532.2,"body":"legal investigative arm and they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":532.2,"endTime":537.57,"body":"too, can be involved is the lead"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":532.2,"endTime":537.57,"body":"agency. It can be the local"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":537.57,"endTime":542.31,"body":"sheriff's office, it can be the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":537.57,"endTime":542.31,"body":"tribal police, the Navajo"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":542.4,"endTime":547.53,"body":"Nations, has a very famous and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":542.4,"endTime":547.53,"body":"pretty good police department."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":547.83,"endTime":552.42,"body":"They've started to report pretty"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":547.83,"endTime":552.42,"body":"effectively, just recently,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":552.45,"endTime":555.48,"body":"they're starting to report in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":552.45,"endTime":555.48,"body":"the last five or six years. You"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":555.48,"endTime":560.1,"body":"can see those cases in our at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":555.48,"endTime":560.1,"body":"our website and decide for"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":560.1,"endTime":564.06,"body":"yourself. It varies is the short"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":560.1,"endTime":564.06,"body":"answer. There are over 500"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":564.06,"endTime":570.15,"body":"federally recognized tribes, and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":564.06,"endTime":570.15,"body":"it's a mich mismatch of who is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":570.18,"endTime":574.11,"body":"legally responsible for"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":570.18,"endTime":574.11,"body":"investigating major crimes."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":574.89,"endTime":578.19,"body":"So your project,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":574.89,"endTime":578.19,"body":"you started with this algorithm"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":578.19,"endTime":581.28,"body":"and it was it was a data"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":578.19,"endTime":581.28,"body":"originally mined from serial"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":581.28,"endTime":584.91,"body":"killer Gary Ridgway, who's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":581.28,"endTime":584.91,"body":"that's an I knew that name very"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":584.91,"endTime":587.55,"body":"well, because I'm from Seattle,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":584.91,"endTime":587.55,"body":"grew up in Seattle, and he was a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":587.55,"endTime":591.12,"body":"Green River Killer. So you use"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":587.55,"endTime":591.12,"body":"the data from that one to kind"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":591.12,"endTime":593.37,"body":"of figure out an algorithm. Is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":591.12,"endTime":593.37,"body":"that how you did it?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":593.73,"endTime":597.87,"body":"Yeah. So as a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":593.73,"endTime":597.87,"body":"reporter, my very first job was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":597.87,"endTime":601.98,"body":"as a police reporter, a cop shop"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":597.87,"endTime":601.98,"body":"Reporter we would call it back"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":601.98,"endTime":606.75,"body":"in Birmingham, Alabama back in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":601.98,"endTime":606.75,"body":"the in the 70s, late 70s. And at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":606.75,"endTime":610.5,"body":"that time, I was very aware next"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":606.75,"endTime":610.5,"body":"door in Atlanta of the child,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":610.53,"endTime":614.64,"body":"the Atlanta Child Murders. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":610.53,"endTime":614.64,"body":"the Atlanta police department"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":614.64,"endTime":618.36,"body":"was roundly criticized for not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":614.64,"endTime":618.36,"body":"recognizing the patterns sooner."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":618.69,"endTime":620.16,"body":"I started going to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":621.929,"endTime":627.119,"body":"university discussions about"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":621.929,"endTime":627.119,"body":"what happened in Atlanta, and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":627.119,"endTime":630.479,"body":"learned that this is a well"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":627.119,"endTime":630.479,"body":"known phenomenon called linkage"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":630.479,"endTime":634.379,"body":"blindness, that it's common not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":630.479,"endTime":634.379,"body":"to recognize a pattern like"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":634.379,"endTime":638.849,"body":"this. So I kept that in the back"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":634.379,"endTime":638.849,"body":"of my mind. And then later on,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":638.849,"endTime":643.739,"body":"when I was doing a study of how"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":638.849,"endTime":643.739,"body":"police and forced prostitution"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":643.739,"endTime":648.269,"body":"laws, I got, when I purchased"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":643.739,"endTime":648.269,"body":"purchased my very first copy of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":648.269,"endTime":652.979,"body":"the Uniform Crime Report, I got"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":648.269,"endTime":652.979,"body":"an extra bonus at no extra"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":652.979,"endTime":657.179,"body":"charge, somebody tossed in a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":652.979,"endTime":657.179,"body":"copy of the supplementary"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":657.179,"endTime":660.959,"body":"homicide report, I'd never heard"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":657.179,"endTime":660.959,"body":"of it or seen it before. And it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":660.959,"endTime":665.339,"body":"was row after row of individual"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":660.959,"endTime":665.339,"body":"murders that had been reported"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":665.579,"endTime":668.909,"body":"to the FBI. And it did include"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":665.579,"endTime":668.909,"body":"things like the weapon that was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":668.909,"endTime":673.739,"body":"used the age, race, sex"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":668.909,"endTime":673.739,"body":"ethnicity of the victim, similar"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":673.739,"endTime":677.909,"body":"information of the offender if"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":673.739,"endTime":677.909,"body":"an arrest had been made, who"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":677.909,"endTime":681.569,"body":"investigated the case, the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":677.909,"endTime":681.569,"body":"circumstances of the case, which"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":681.569,"endTime":684.749,"body":"was the police theory as to why"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":681.569,"endTime":684.749,"body":"it happened. And I don't know"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":684.749,"endTime":687.299,"body":"where these thoughts come from."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":684.749,"endTime":687.299,"body":"But the first thought I had when"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":687.299,"endTime":692.099,"body":"I saw the SAR was I wonder if we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":687.299,"endTime":692.099,"body":"could teach a computer to spot"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":692.129,"endTime":698.129,"body":"serial crimes, that problem of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":692.129,"endTime":698.129,"body":"linkage blindness. And I asked"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":698.129,"endTime":702.029,"body":"my editors for several years."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":698.129,"endTime":702.029,"body":"And finally, when my stock was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":702.029,"endTime":706.229,"body":"high enough in the newsroom,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":702.029,"endTime":706.229,"body":"Peter Copeland, my bureau chief"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":706.229,"endTime":710.969,"body":"said, Okay, we'll give you a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":706.229,"endTime":710.969,"body":"year. And who gets that anymore?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":711.089,"endTime":715.859,"body":"Yeah, I was given a year to do"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":711.089,"endTime":715.859,"body":"that project. And in the summer"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":715.859,"endTime":722.669,"body":"of 2010, I and an assistant, we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":715.859,"endTime":722.669,"body":"went through at least 100"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":722.669,"endTime":727.019,"body":"methods that don't work. Our"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":722.669,"endTime":727.019,"body":"guide was Gary Ridgway, who at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":727.019,"endTime":731.489,"body":"that time was the worst known"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":727.019,"endTime":731.489,"body":"serial killer on record. He was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":731.489,"endTime":737.399,"body":"convicted convicted of murdering"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":731.489,"endTime":737.399,"body":"48 girls and women in the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":737.399,"endTime":745.169,"body":"greater Seattle area. And he was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":737.399,"endTime":745.169,"body":"our benchmark our teacher, we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":745.199,"endTime":749.279,"body":"knew we would have success or"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":745.199,"endTime":749.279,"body":"some sort of success. If we came"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":749.279,"endTime":753.119,"body":"up with a computer program, an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":749.279,"endTime":753.119,"body":"algorithm a series of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":753.119,"endTime":757.199,"body":"mathematical steps, that would"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":753.119,"endTime":757.199,"body":"tell us that something God awful"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":757.199,"endTime":762.299,"body":"happened in Seattle, in the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":757.199,"endTime":762.299,"body":"1980s. And as I say, we found"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":762.299,"endTime":766.859,"body":"100, things that don't work."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":762.299,"endTime":766.859,"body":"What finally did work was a kind"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":766.859,"endTime":770.819,"body":"of cluster analysis, where we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":766.859,"endTime":770.819,"body":"take the data and we group them,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":771.149,"endTime":776.339,"body":"we group them according to the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":771.149,"endTime":776.339,"body":"gender of the victim, the county"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":776.339,"endTime":780.929,"body":"where the victim was murdered,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":776.339,"endTime":780.929,"body":"the method of killing the weapon"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":780.929,"endTime":785.579,"body":"that was used. And at the time,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":780.929,"endTime":785.579,"body":"we later took it out at the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":785.579,"endTime":788.939,"body":"time, we would group them by"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":785.579,"endTime":788.939,"body":"age. But we stopped doing that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":788.939,"endTime":793.409,"body":"because it turned out not to be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":788.939,"endTime":793.409,"body":"necessary. But we would, we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":793.409,"endTime":797.069,"body":"would then, once the groups had"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":793.409,"endTime":797.069,"body":"been assembled, we took over at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":797.069,"endTime":800.429,"body":"the time, we had about half a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":797.069,"endTime":800.429,"body":"million murders, we now have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":800.429,"endTime":803.819,"body":"records of more than 800,000"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":800.429,"endTime":803.819,"body":"murders, but back then it was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":803.819,"endTime":807.089,"body":"about half a million. And we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":803.819,"endTime":807.089,"body":"turned them into about 10,000"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":807.089,"endTime":810.029,"body":"groups. And then we had the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":807.089,"endTime":810.029,"body":"computer do one more thing to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":810.029,"endTime":814.469,"body":"calculate what was the clearance"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":810.029,"endTime":814.469,"body":"rate of each route group. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":814.469,"endTime":818.489,"body":"then we would have the computer"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":814.469,"endTime":818.489,"body":"sort and tell us what were the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":818.489,"endTime":823.079,"body":"large clusters of apparently"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":818.489,"endTime":823.079,"body":"similar murders that had an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":823.079,"endTime":827.219,"body":"extremely low clearance rate."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":823.079,"endTime":827.219,"body":"And when we did that the Green"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":827.219,"endTime":831.149,"body":"River killings popped right up"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":827.219,"endTime":831.149,"body":"to the top. The very top there"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":831.149,"endTime":836.969,"body":"actually were larger clusters"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":831.149,"endTime":836.969,"body":"and Los Angeles and Phoenix,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":837.629,"endTime":842.819,"body":"Gary, Gary Ridgway scored third"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":837.629,"endTime":842.819,"body":"in that list. So we started"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":842.819,"endTime":846.959,"body":"investigating why in the case of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":842.819,"endTime":846.959,"body":"Los Angeles, it was interesting."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":847.169,"endTime":851.039,"body":"It's like they had a convention."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":847.169,"endTime":851.039,"body":"There were five separate serial"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":851.039,"endTime":856.289,"body":"killers, working the south base"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":851.039,"endTime":856.289,"body":"in Los Angeles County, killing"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":856.289,"endTime":861.059,"body":"women with handguns. And they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":856.289,"endTime":861.059,"body":"were completely unrelated. When"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":861.059,"endTime":865.109,"body":"I called the LAPD and talked to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":861.059,"endTime":865.109,"body":"the press office and said, ask"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":865.109,"endTime":869.099,"body":"them I sent them a list of the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":865.109,"endTime":869.099,"body":"of the individual cases that the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":869.099,"endTime":873.119,"body":"algorithm had spotlighted. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":869.099,"endTime":873.119,"body":"an hour or two later I called"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":873.149,"endTime":877.649,"body":"back and said, Well, could these"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":873.149,"endTime":877.649,"body":"be cereal? And he said, What are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":877.649,"endTime":880.529,"body":"you kidding? And he used the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":877.649,"endTime":880.529,"body":"line. It's like we had a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":880.529,"endTime":884.549,"body":"convention here. We had five"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":880.529,"endTime":884.549,"body":"separate killers. Wow. They were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":884.579,"endTime":887.129,"body":"they were quite independent."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":884.579,"endTime":887.129,"body":"They didn't know about each"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":887.129,"endTime":891.629,"body":"other. They weren't acting as a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":887.129,"endTime":891.629,"body":"group. But they were killing"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":891.899,"endTime":896.219,"body":"women through the same basic"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":891.899,"endTime":896.219,"body":"technique. handguns are very,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":896.219,"endTime":898.739,"body":"very common in LA. So"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":899.039,"endTime":899.969,"body":"are those ones saw"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":900.899,"endTime":903.029,"body":"Yes, okay, it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":900.899,"endTime":903.029,"body":"has been solved. What about"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":903.029,"endTime":905.099,"body":"the Phoenix one? I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":903.029,"endTime":905.099,"body":"live in Phoenix now and he got"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":905.099,"endTime":905.609,"body":"me worried."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":906.57,"endTime":909.03,"body":"Yeah, there"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":906.57,"endTime":909.03,"body":"were a bunch of murders in the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":909.03,"endTime":912.87,"body":"desert. And the first time we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":909.03,"endTime":912.87,"body":"talked to the Phoenix Police"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":912.87,"endTime":917.28,"body":"Department, they looked at it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":912.87,"endTime":917.28,"body":"The problem was Phoenix has"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":917.28,"endTime":922.74,"body":"multiple jurisdictions. It's a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":917.28,"endTime":922.74,"body":"real patchwork and what the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":922.74,"endTime":928.02,"body":"algorithm identified were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":922.74,"endTime":928.02,"body":"murders of bodies recovered"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":928.02,"endTime":934.11,"body":"mostly in the desert. And the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":928.02,"endTime":934.11,"body":"Phoenix Police Department at the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":934.11,"endTime":938.34,"body":"first time we tried, said, We"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":934.11,"endTime":938.34,"body":"don't have any indication that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":938.34,"endTime":943.77,"body":"these are connected cases. In"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":938.34,"endTime":943.77,"body":"subsequent years, we've had"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":943.77,"endTime":948.3,"body":"other conversations with Phoenix"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":943.77,"endTime":948.3,"body":"authorities and they are still"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":948.3,"endTime":954.36,"body":"looking. You know, there. It is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":948.3,"endTime":954.36,"body":"common to find bodies in the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":954.36,"endTime":958.29,"body":"desert. And it is a common"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":954.36,"endTime":958.29,"body":"murder technique to dispose of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":958.29,"endTime":963.66,"body":"bodies. Often it's difficult to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":958.29,"endTime":963.66,"body":"know the cause of death. Because"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":963.66,"endTime":969.0,"body":"the body has been exposed to, to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":963.66,"endTime":969.0,"body":"weather. Mm hmm. So yeah,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":969.0,"endTime":972.63,"body":"anyway, we are looking at okay,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":969.0,"endTime":972.63,"body":"so there's some first time they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":972.63,"endTime":976.35,"body":"said no, and now they're,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":972.63,"endTime":976.35,"body":"they're poking back. They have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":976.62,"endTime":984.24,"body":"more than 2000 unsolved murders"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":976.62,"endTime":984.24,"body":"in the area. And that's scary."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":984.69,"endTime":989.01,"body":"probably quite a bit tucked in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":984.69,"endTime":989.01,"body":"that pile of data, probably"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":989.01,"endTime":995.19,"body":"several serial killers in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":989.01,"endTime":995.19,"body":"Phoenix. Yeah, they very well"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":995.19,"endTime":1000.35,"body":"may not be active. Okay. Data"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":995.19,"endTime":1000.35,"body":"that goes back over nearly 50"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1000.35,"endTime":1000.65,"body":"years."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1000.679,"endTime":1002.449,"body":"Yeah. So this is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1000.679,"endTime":1002.449,"body":"because this is an interesting"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1002.479,"endTime":1005.809,"body":"statistic is that you said that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1002.479,"endTime":1005.809,"body":"police used to solve murders"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1005.809,"endTime":1010.909,"body":"about 90% of the time. And now"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1005.809,"endTime":1010.909,"body":"it's only 65%. That blew my mind"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1010.909,"endTime":1013.909,"body":"because that seems so backward,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1010.909,"endTime":1013.909,"body":"backwards with the DNA"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1013.909,"endTime":1017.809,"body":"advancements, whatever I I just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1013.909,"endTime":1017.809,"body":"think I guess I'm naive, because"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1017.809,"endTime":1020.269,"body":"I thought murders just don't"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1017.809,"endTime":1020.269,"body":"happen very often are definitely"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1020.269,"endTime":1022.819,"body":"not most people killing multiple"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1020.269,"endTime":1022.819,"body":"people. Because once they get"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1022.819,"endTime":1027.289,"body":"the DNA, the people get locked"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1022.819,"endTime":1027.289,"body":"up. But 65% clearance rate of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1027.289,"endTime":1029.599,"body":"murder solved is what your"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1027.289,"endTime":1029.599,"body":"reporting, right?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1029.929,"endTime":1033.259,"body":"I'm sorry to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1029.929,"endTime":1033.259,"body":"report. But we had a hard year"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1033.259,"endTime":1038.629,"body":"last year, we set a new record"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1033.259,"endTime":1038.629,"body":"last in 2020. We only cleared"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1038.629,"endTime":1044.449,"body":"54% of our homicides, the worst"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1038.629,"endTime":1044.449,"body":"we've ever done. And that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1044.449,"endTime":1049.579,"body":"pattern continues. We may be the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1044.449,"endTime":1049.579,"body":"only western democracy where"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1049.579,"endTime":1053.479,"body":"most murders go unsolved. But"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1049.579,"endTime":1053.479,"body":"right now the level is down to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1053.479,"endTime":1059.269,"body":"54%. The problem is that police"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1053.479,"endTime":1059.269,"body":"are overwhelmed. There aren't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1059.299,"endTime":1063.889,"body":"enough resources applied to the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1059.299,"endTime":1063.889,"body":"problem. The nature of murder"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1063.889,"endTime":1069.139,"body":"has changed increasingly, and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1063.889,"endTime":1069.139,"body":"involves racial minorities and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1069.139,"endTime":1073.639,"body":"inner cities. Increasingly, it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1069.139,"endTime":1073.639,"body":"is drug related or gang related."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1073.639,"endTime":1076.999,"body":"And those can be tougher to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1073.639,"endTime":1076.999,"body":"solve unless a police department"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1077.389,"endTime":1080.359,"body":"has figured out how to retool,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1077.389,"endTime":1080.359,"body":"there are plenty of police"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1080.359,"endTime":1084.229,"body":"departments that know how to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1080.359,"endTime":1084.229,"body":"deal with gangs and drugs. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1084.229,"endTime":1088.789,"body":"plenty that don't. And looking"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1084.229,"endTime":1088.789,"body":"at the murder clearance rate is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1088.789,"endTime":1091.399,"body":"a pretty good indicator of that."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1088.789,"endTime":1091.399,"body":"Yeah, well, I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1091.4,"endTime":1094.19,"body":"think you said"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1091.4,"endTime":1094.19,"body":"homicide detectives cannot clear"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1094.19,"endTime":1098.63,"body":"more than five murders in a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1094.19,"endTime":1098.63,"body":"year. So if 10 murders come"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1098.63,"endTime":1101.45,"body":"across their desk, they're only"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1098.63,"endTime":1101.45,"body":"going to solve half of them."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1101.84,"endTime":1104.15,"body":"Now, they'd be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1101.84,"endTime":1104.15,"body":"lucky to solve half of them."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1104.93,"endTime":1108.05,"body":"That the guidance from the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1104.93,"endTime":1108.05,"body":"Justice Department and others is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1108.05,"endTime":1111.98,"body":"that it is not a good idea to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1108.05,"endTime":1111.98,"body":"ask a homicide detective to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1111.98,"endTime":1115.88,"body":"handle more than five cases a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1111.98,"endTime":1115.88,"body":"year even five is pushing it as"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1115.88,"endTime":1121.64,"body":"murder is a very labor intensive"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1115.88,"endTime":1121.64,"body":"investigation. It's knocking on"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1121.64,"endTime":1126.38,"body":"doors. It's talking to people"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1121.64,"endTime":1126.38,"body":"just forever and talking to them"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1126.38,"endTime":1129.98,"body":"again. And again. A good"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1126.38,"endTime":1129.98,"body":"investigation will re interview"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1129.98,"endTime":1133.58,"body":"the wisdom witnesses multiple"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1129.98,"endTime":1133.58,"body":"times because often they forget"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1133.58,"endTime":1138.89,"body":"stuff. And when they tell their"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1133.58,"endTime":1138.89,"body":"their recollection, multiple"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1138.89,"endTime":1142.73,"body":"times. Things that they forgot"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1138.89,"endTime":1142.73,"body":"to say the first time pop up. I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1142.73,"endTime":1145.76,"body":"mean, this is just the way life"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1142.73,"endTime":1145.76,"body":"is. But you don't see that on"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1145.76,"endTime":1150.14,"body":"television on television. It's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1145.76,"endTime":1150.14,"body":"yeah, burgers investigated and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1150.38,"endTime":1153.29,"body":"solved in 60 minutes by"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1150.38,"endTime":1153.29,"body":"beautiful people sitting in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1153.29,"endTime":1158.57,"body":"front of gigantic computer"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1153.29,"endTime":1158.57,"body":"monitors. Isn't that way? Yeah."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1159.14,"endTime":1163.13,"body":"And increasingly, we don't have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1159.14,"endTime":1163.13,"body":"the resources to do that kind of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1163.13,"endTime":1163.52,"body":"work."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1163.88,"endTime":1167.93,"body":"Is the DNA how"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1163.88,"endTime":1167.93,"body":"often is DNA an issue in solving"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1167.93,"endTime":1170.6,"body":"a murder? Because I would think"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1167.93,"endTime":1170.6,"body":"I mean, there's got to be DNA on"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1170.6,"endTime":1173.48,"body":"most murders, right? I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1170.6,"endTime":1173.48,"body":"it's just all you're looking at."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1173.48,"endTime":1175.49,"body":"You find one little hair and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1173.48,"endTime":1175.49,"body":"that's something."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1176.66,"endTime":1179.96,"body":"Yeah, I don't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1176.66,"endTime":1179.96,"body":"think it's that common. But yes,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1179.96,"endTime":1188.18,"body":"DNA has helped. It's also hurt."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1179.96,"endTime":1188.18,"body":"What happens is, state"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1188.18,"endTime":1191.39,"body":"laboratories are overwhelmed"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1188.18,"endTime":1191.39,"body":"like everything else involving"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1191.39,"endTime":1195.14,"body":"law enforcement is overwhelmed."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1191.39,"endTime":1195.14,"body":"And it can take many months or"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1195.14,"endTime":1200.75,"body":"in some cases years to get DNA"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1195.14,"endTime":1200.75,"body":"back from a state lab. that can"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1200.75,"endTime":1205.64,"body":"cause a DNA pause and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1200.75,"endTime":1205.64,"body":"investigation stops until they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1205.64,"endTime":1211.4,"body":"get lab results back. And that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1205.64,"endTime":1211.4,"body":"can be critical. Because the if"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1211.43,"endTime":1213.92,"body":"the early days of an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1211.43,"endTime":1213.92,"body":"investigation are very"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1213.92,"endTime":1218.36,"body":"important, and it would help the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1213.92,"endTime":1218.36,"body":"detective to know DNA is not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1218.36,"endTime":1222.05,"body":"going to help. If he knew that,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1218.36,"endTime":1222.05,"body":"then he would knock on yet more"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1222.05,"endTime":1226.04,"body":"doors and do it the old"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1222.05,"endTime":1226.04,"body":"fashioned way. Sometimes the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1226.04,"endTime":1231.74,"body":"expectation for magic doesn't,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1226.04,"endTime":1231.74,"body":"doesn't pan out. Gotcha. DNA is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1231.74,"endTime":1234.44,"body":"not the magic bullet, we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1231.74,"endTime":1234.44,"body":"thought. I mean, look at the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1234.5,"endTime":1238.67,"body":"look at the clearance rate over"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1234.5,"endTime":1238.67,"body":"time. Despite the miracle of new"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1238.67,"endTime":1243.08,"body":"forensic techniques, we have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1238.67,"endTime":1243.08,"body":"ever declining rates of clearing"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1243.08,"endTime":1248.12,"body":"homicides. And that's eloquent"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1243.08,"endTime":1248.12,"body":"proof that DNA is not a magic"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1248.12,"endTime":1248.51,"body":"bullet."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1248.75,"endTime":1251.54,"body":"Right. So"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1248.75,"endTime":1251.54,"body":"Cleveland, I think, is also one"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1251.54,"endTime":1254.78,"body":"of the ones the cities where you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1251.54,"endTime":1254.78,"body":"said had the biggest cluster of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1254.78,"endTime":1258.65,"body":"murders. And you think there may"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1254.78,"endTime":1258.65,"body":"be a serial killer there, but"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1258.65,"endTime":1259.55,"body":"you can't prove it."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1260.21,"endTime":1263.03,"body":"Yeah. And to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1260.21,"endTime":1263.03,"body":"their credit, in fact, there"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1263.06,"endTime":1266.21,"body":"there were nice to work with the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1263.06,"endTime":1266.21,"body":"Cleveland Police Department."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1266.54,"endTime":1275.75,"body":"Oops. Is that them? That was me."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1266.54,"endTime":1275.75,"body":"Okay. Someone called anyway, the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1275.75,"endTime":1282.23,"body":"Cleveland Police Department did"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1275.75,"endTime":1282.23,"body":"start a a special investigation"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1282.23,"endTime":1287.69,"body":"re reviewing the cases that the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1282.23,"endTime":1287.69,"body":"algorithm spotlighted and during"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1287.69,"endTime":1291.02,"body":"that time, it was it was a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1287.69,"endTime":1291.02,"body":"horrible thing. There was a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1292.52,"endTime":1298.1,"body":"murder of a 14 year old girl"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1292.52,"endTime":1298.1,"body":"aliannah to freeze. The"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1298.1,"endTime":1303.5,"body":"algorithm show that there was an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1298.1,"endTime":1303.5,"body":"unusual cluster along 93rd"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1303.5,"endTime":1310.04,"body":"Street in in Cleveland. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1303.5,"endTime":1310.04,"body":"aliannah was last seen boarding"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1310.04,"endTime":1314.87,"body":"a school bus well, actually a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1310.04,"endTime":1314.87,"body":"regular city bus on our way to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1314.87,"endTime":1320.21,"body":"school, along 93rd Street. A few"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1314.87,"endTime":1320.21,"body":"days later, her body was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1320.54,"endTime":1325.58,"body":"recovered in an empty house"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1320.54,"endTime":1325.58,"body":"about half a block from 93rd"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1325.58,"endTime":1331.91,"body":"Street, horribly, horribly"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1325.58,"endTime":1331.91,"body":"mutilated, I mean, something out"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1331.91,"endTime":1336.74,"body":"of the Middle Ages. Aliana was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1331.91,"endTime":1336.74,"body":"14, but she looked much, much"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1336.74,"endTime":1341.48,"body":"younger. She had learning"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1336.74,"endTime":1341.48,"body":"disabilities and other issues."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1342.11,"endTime":1346.97,"body":"Who would do that to to a young"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1342.11,"endTime":1346.97,"body":"girl like that. I mean, she did"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1346.97,"endTime":1352.25,"body":"nothing to deserve that. And the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1346.97,"endTime":1352.25,"body":"police called me back. And we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1352.25,"endTime":1357.11,"body":"were still in this discussion"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1352.25,"endTime":1357.11,"body":"about these cases. And they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1357.11,"endTime":1360.56,"body":"said, Would you please check"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1357.11,"endTime":1360.56,"body":"hard, we want to see if they're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1360.56,"endTime":1364.46,"body":"anything like this. They made an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1360.56,"endTime":1364.46,"body":"arrest. They solve that one. He"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1364.46,"endTime":1372.68,"body":"left his DNA at the scene. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1364.46,"endTime":1372.68,"body":"they had him and every every"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1373.34,"endTime":1377.36,"body":"every instinct in their cop"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1373.34,"endTime":1377.36,"body":"bodies was there's no way this"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1377.36,"endTime":1381.44,"body":"guy hasn't killed before. This"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1377.36,"endTime":1381.44,"body":"wasn't his first rodeo. He was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1381.44,"endTime":1385.22,"body":"44 years old when he was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1381.44,"endTime":1385.22,"body":"arrested. And who starts killing"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1385.22,"endTime":1390.17,"body":"at 44 Killing like that. But we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1385.22,"endTime":1390.17,"body":"couldn't we couldn't find"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1390.17,"endTime":1392.18,"body":"anything that was a direct"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1390.17,"endTime":1392.18,"body":"match. There were plenty of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1392.18,"endTime":1396.14,"body":"unsolved murders of African"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1392.18,"endTime":1396.14,"body":"American girls and women but not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1396.14,"endTime":1402.26,"body":"with that particular violence."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1396.14,"endTime":1402.26,"body":"So we're glad they caught him."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1403.49,"endTime":1407.3,"body":"But we don't know. They they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1403.49,"endTime":1407.3,"body":"were able to the task force was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1407.3,"endTime":1410.84,"body":"able to clear another murder"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1407.3,"endTime":1410.84,"body":"because of the review. So we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1410.84,"endTime":1414.17,"body":"count that one and say victory."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1410.84,"endTime":1414.17,"body":"We don't have proof that they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1414.17,"endTime":1419.36,"body":"are serial, although they and we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1414.17,"endTime":1419.36,"body":"believe Aliana DeFries was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1419.36,"endTime":1422.81,"body":"probably a serial victim. But we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1419.36,"endTime":1422.81,"body":"just can't prove it."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1422.839,"endTime":1425.929,"body":"So do you think"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1422.839,"endTime":1425.929,"body":"that there's other murders that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1426.109,"endTime":1428.809,"body":"they just don't have the DNA or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1426.109,"endTime":1428.809,"body":"the evidence or do you think"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1428.809,"endTime":1431.659,"body":"that they haven't even found all"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1428.809,"endTime":1431.659,"body":"these maybe other other bodies"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1431.659,"endTime":1433.969,"body":"are hidden better? Something"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1431.659,"endTime":1433.969,"body":"they haven't found them yet?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1434.599,"endTime":1441.229,"body":"Yes. The answer"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1434.599,"endTime":1441.229,"body":"is yes to both. Yeah. Oh. It is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1441.259,"endTime":1446.809,"body":"it is common in urban"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1441.259,"endTime":1446.809,"body":"environments for serial killers"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1446.809,"endTime":1452.989,"body":"to be adept at hiding their"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1446.809,"endTime":1452.989,"body":"their victims. One of the one of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1452.989,"endTime":1456.319,"body":"the clusters that the algorithm"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1452.989,"endTime":1456.319,"body":"identified was a series of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1456.319,"endTime":1463.969,"body":"strangulation murders in Gary,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1456.319,"endTime":1463.969,"body":"Indiana. And we tried to tell"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1463.969,"endTime":1466.459,"body":"the Gary This is back when I was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1463.969,"endTime":1466.459,"body":"still a reporter before the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1466.459,"endTime":1470.029,"body":"murder Accountability Project"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1466.459,"endTime":1470.029,"body":"existed. I tried to have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1470.029,"endTime":1474.949,"body":"conversations with Gary police"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1470.029,"endTime":1474.949,"body":"department that please look at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1474.949,"endTime":1478.609,"body":"these 15 unsolved"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1474.949,"endTime":1478.609,"body":"strangulations. We have a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1478.639,"endTime":1481.549,"body":"mathematical technique that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1478.639,"endTime":1481.549,"body":"indicating that these could be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1481.549,"endTime":1485.599,"body":"connected. And if you call up"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1481.549,"endTime":1485.599,"body":"the narratives, they sure look"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1485.629,"endTime":1491.839,"body":"connected. And Gary refused to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1485.629,"endTime":1491.839,"body":"acknowledge the possibility that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1491.839,"endTime":1497.389,"body":"was in 2010 and 2014 next door"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1491.839,"endTime":1497.389,"body":"to Gary. police recovered in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1497.389,"endTime":1502.219,"body":"Hammond, Indiana to Motel Six"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1497.389,"endTime":1502.219,"body":"The body of 19 year old Africa"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1502.219,"endTime":1507.109,"body":"hearty she was strangled and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1502.219,"endTime":1507.109,"body":"left in a bathtub. They quickly"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1507.139,"endTime":1513.379,"body":"made an arrest a guy named"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1507.139,"endTime":1513.379,"body":"Darren Dion Vaughn. And he said,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1513.379,"endTime":1517.219,"body":"Well, I've been at this for a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1513.379,"endTime":1517.219,"body":"while, I've been killing lots of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1517.219,"endTime":1521.539,"body":"people in lots of places. I'm"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1517.219,"endTime":1521.539,"body":"willing to show you some of my"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1521.539,"endTime":1525.229,"body":"work here. And Gary. So the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1521.539,"endTime":1525.229,"body":"Hammond police detectives called"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1525.229,"endTime":1532.639,"body":"Gary and said, We're coming in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1525.229,"endTime":1532.639,"body":"and Mr. Vaughn took police to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1532.639,"endTime":1536.029,"body":"six other body recovery sites"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1532.639,"endTime":1536.029,"body":"that no, nobody knew a thing"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1536.029,"endTime":1540.619,"body":"about six other women that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1536.029,"endTime":1540.619,"body":"Vaughn had killed in a six month"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1540.619,"endTime":1546.139,"body":"period, and hidden in abandoned"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1540.619,"endTime":1546.139,"body":"properties, it can be very easy"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1546.139,"endTime":1549.379,"body":"to hide your work, and Vaughn"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1546.139,"endTime":1549.379,"body":"was pretty good at it."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1549.77,"endTime":1551.72,"body":"What typically"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1549.77,"endTime":1551.72,"body":"happens with those abandoned"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1551.72,"endTime":1554.69,"body":"properties? That sounds like a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1551.72,"endTime":1554.69,"body":"very common dumping site."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1555.53,"endTime":1559.19,"body":"It is. And it's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1555.53,"endTime":1559.19,"body":"one of the reasons why civic"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1559.19,"endTime":1564.89,"body":"improvement efforts try to get"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1559.19,"endTime":1564.89,"body":"federal funding to plow them"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1564.92,"endTime":1569.0,"body":"under, you know, to turn them"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1564.92,"endTime":1569.0,"body":"into empty lots. I mean, that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1569.0,"endTime":1573.05,"body":"a good idea. And that is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1569.0,"endTime":1573.05,"body":"happening in urban renewal"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1573.05,"endTime":1576.47,"body":"projects. In many cities."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1573.05,"endTime":1576.47,"body":"They're trying to do it in Gary,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1576.86,"endTime":1581.99,"body":"it's a problem. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1576.86,"endTime":1581.99,"body":"one of the problems facing law"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1581.99,"endTime":1586.64,"body":"enforcement is that this is a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1581.99,"endTime":1586.64,"body":"dirty little secret. But many"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1586.64,"endTime":1590.54,"body":"cities in America are broke,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1586.64,"endTime":1590.54,"body":"they cannot afford their pension"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1590.54,"endTime":1597.38,"body":"plans, their their property tax"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1590.54,"endTime":1597.38,"body":"base is eroding. Gary, Indiana"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1597.38,"endTime":1601.64,"body":"has a pretty bad case of that,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1597.38,"endTime":1601.64,"body":"but so do other major cities."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1602.15,"endTime":1609.11,"body":"And that failure of available"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1602.15,"endTime":1609.11,"body":"income feeds back into not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1609.11,"endTime":1612.05,"body":"adequate resources being"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1609.11,"endTime":1612.05,"body":"available to investigate major"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1612.05,"endTime":1617.0,"body":"crimes. We simply can't afford"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1612.05,"endTime":1617.0,"body":"the manpower to to properly"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1617.0,"endTime":1621.11,"body":"investigate these cases, because"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1617.0,"endTime":1621.11,"body":"the cities themselves are under"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1621.11,"endTime":1621.92,"body":"resourced."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1622.52,"endTime":1624.47,"body":"Yeah. And I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1622.52,"endTime":1624.47,"body":"that's what's so frustrating"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1624.5,"endTime":1628.67,"body":"when you see this movement for"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1624.5,"endTime":1628.67,"body":"defund the police, which and I'm"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1628.67,"endTime":1630.95,"body":"all for accountability of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1628.67,"endTime":1630.95,"body":"police. I think that'd be a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1630.95,"endTime":1634.22,"body":"great thing. But it seems like"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1630.95,"endTime":1634.22,"body":"they need more resources and not"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1634.22,"endTime":1634.88,"body":"less."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1635.75,"endTime":1640.85,"body":"Amen. Yeah. I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1635.75,"endTime":1640.85,"body":"mean, the the killing of George"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1640.85,"endTime":1648.62,"body":"Floyd was a stimulant for all"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1640.85,"endTime":1648.62,"body":"kinds of civil disorder. It was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1648.62,"endTime":1653.18,"body":"a murder. And it was done in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1648.62,"endTime":1653.18,"body":"real time, filmed by people who"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1653.18,"endTime":1657.14,"body":"were begging the police officer"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1653.18,"endTime":1657.14,"body":"to stop that Mr. Floyd was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1657.14,"endTime":1662.39,"body":"dying. He said he couldn't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1657.14,"endTime":1662.39,"body":"breathe. That kicked off around"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1662.42,"endTime":1667.64,"body":"have intense dispute and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1662.42,"endTime":1667.64,"body":"demonstrations against local"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1667.64,"endTime":1673.94,"body":"police by local people. And that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1667.64,"endTime":1673.94,"body":"was one of the big factors for"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1673.94,"endTime":1678.8,"body":"the huge erosion and homicide"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1673.94,"endTime":1678.8,"body":"clearance and 2020. It was in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1678.8,"endTime":1680.66,"body":"response to the George Floyd"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1678.8,"endTime":1680.66,"body":"murder."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1680.869,"endTime":1684.079,"body":"Yeah, it's just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1680.869,"endTime":1684.079,"body":"really sad. So well, let's get"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1684.079,"endTime":1688.189,"body":"into the big one. The Chicago"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1684.079,"endTime":1688.189,"body":"strangler, which this one some"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1688.189,"endTime":1692.209,"body":"of those murders may have been"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1688.189,"endTime":1692.209,"body":"Vaughn from the Gary, Indiana,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1692.239,"endTime":1697.069,"body":"he may have some of those. But"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1692.239,"endTime":1697.069,"body":"there were 75 murders, and only"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1697.069,"endTime":1701.059,"body":"about a quarter are solved. So"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1697.069,"endTime":1701.059,"body":"these women were strangled"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1701.059,"endTime":1705.139,"body":"smothered a fixated south and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1701.059,"endTime":1705.139,"body":"west sides of Chicago, the women"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1705.139,"endTime":1708.109,"body":"had a history of sex work or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1705.139,"endTime":1708.109,"body":"drug use, and the overwhelming"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1708.109,"endTime":1711.469,"body":"majority black women, some"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1708.109,"endTime":1711.469,"body":"white, some Hispanic, but what"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1711.469,"endTime":1715.009,"body":"was it three quarters black"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1711.469,"endTime":1715.009,"body":"women? Yeah, about that. Okay."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1715.339,"endTime":1717.499,"body":"And so and then the other thing"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1715.339,"endTime":1717.499,"body":"we know is that this is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1717.499,"endTime":1721.789,"body":"interesting, the body dump"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1717.499,"endTime":1721.789,"body":"locations 94% Out door, which is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1721.819,"endTime":1725.629,"body":"you say that's very unusual. And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1721.819,"endTime":1725.629,"body":"yeah, and the majority women"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1725.629,"endTime":1728.629,"body":"were found nude and many were"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1725.629,"endTime":1728.629,"body":"raped. And it's just really"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1728.629,"endTime":1731.629,"body":"disgusting when you think about"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1728.629,"endTime":1731.629,"body":"the abandoned buildings is one"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1731.629,"endTime":1735.769,"body":"spot, but also trash cans and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1731.629,"endTime":1735.769,"body":"alleyways. And I want this party"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1735.799,"endTime":1738.649,"body":"to understand when they light"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1735.799,"endTime":1738.649,"body":"the body on fire you did you say"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1738.649,"endTime":1741.259,"body":"that that was maybe to bring"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1738.649,"endTime":1741.259,"body":"attention? Or is it to destroy"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1741.259,"endTime":1742.249,"body":"evidence or both?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1742.4,"endTime":1744.29,"body":"Probably"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1742.4,"endTime":1744.29,"body":"Probably speculation, but"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1744.29,"endTime":1749.93,"body":"probably to destroy evidence."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1744.29,"endTime":1749.93,"body":"Does that work? Yeah, yeah. If"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1749.93,"endTime":1754.07,"body":"you can burn the crime scene,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1749.93,"endTime":1754.07,"body":"you improve the chance that you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1754.07,"endTime":1759.11,"body":"didn't leave something behind"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1754.07,"endTime":1759.11,"body":"that is detectable. But that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1759.11,"endTime":1761.87,"body":"having been said, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1759.11,"endTime":1761.87,"body":"Chicago is a bit of a mystery."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1762.53,"endTime":1766.25,"body":"It has an unusually high number"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1762.53,"endTime":1766.25,"body":"of females, strangulations, that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1766.25,"endTime":1770.18,"body":"was Red flag number one. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1766.25,"endTime":1770.18,"body":"then when you put names and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1770.18,"endTime":1775.1,"body":"narratives to the FBI data, and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1770.18,"endTime":1775.1,"body":"you look at those cases, it just"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1775.13,"endTime":1780.65,"body":"screams serial, that, that these"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1775.13,"endTime":1780.65,"body":"were women who were found"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1780.65,"endTime":1786.17,"body":"outdoors, suggesting that their"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1780.65,"endTime":1786.17,"body":"killers were strangers, not an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1786.17,"endTime":1789.02,"body":"intimate not a member of the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1786.17,"endTime":1789.02,"body":"family or a friend who came"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1789.02,"endTime":1792.77,"body":"knocking on your door. This was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1789.02,"endTime":1792.77,"body":"someone you ran across out of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1792.77,"endTime":1801.11,"body":"doors. Stranger on stranger"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1792.77,"endTime":1801.11,"body":"murders of most of many Women"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1801.11,"endTime":1806.54,"body":"with histories of sex work or"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1801.11,"endTime":1806.54,"body":"have drug use, or both. Those"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1806.54,"endTime":1811.46,"body":"are all red flags for serial"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1806.54,"endTime":1811.46,"body":"murder. Serial killers have a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1811.46,"endTime":1816.74,"body":"hard time getting access to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1811.46,"endTime":1816.74,"body":"women who will allow themselves"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1816.74,"endTime":1822.26,"body":"to be alone with men. They don't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1816.74,"endTime":1822.26,"body":"know. But you know, a sex"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1822.26,"endTime":1828.35,"body":"worker, that's what she does."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1822.26,"endTime":1828.35,"body":"And there was a Dallas, homicide"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1828.35,"endTime":1832.22,"body":"investigator who put it to me"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1828.35,"endTime":1832.22,"body":"this way, once you have, in a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1832.22,"endTime":1836.81,"body":"way you have to pity the poor,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1832.22,"endTime":1836.81,"body":"serial killer, what other woman"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1836.93,"endTime":1841.61,"body":"would get into your panel van"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1836.93,"endTime":1841.61,"body":"alone? So they have they have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1841.64,"endTime":1847.04,"body":"limited choices of victims. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1841.64,"endTime":1847.04,"body":"they often target sex workers"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1847.04,"endTime":1847.97,"body":"for that reason."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1848.24,"endTime":1850.82,"body":"And is that how"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1848.24,"endTime":1850.82,"body":"they? What's up?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1851.93,"endTime":1855.11,"body":"The signs of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1851.93,"endTime":1855.11,"body":"serial murder in Chicago were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1855.26,"endTime":1859.91,"body":"everywhere. I mean, it was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1855.26,"endTime":1859.91,"body":"really very obvious to us, that,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1860.15,"endTime":1866.09,"body":"that these women, these 51"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1860.15,"endTime":1866.09,"body":"onsolve strangulations of women"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1866.57,"endTime":1871.73,"body":"were not handled by 51 separate"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1866.57,"endTime":1871.73,"body":"men, that just did not happen."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1872.42,"endTime":1874.25,"body":"Well, and you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1872.42,"endTime":1874.25,"body":"mentioned that so the locations,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1874.25,"endTime":1877.55,"body":"so that's another thing, because"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1874.25,"endTime":1877.55,"body":"these are like scary places"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1877.55,"endTime":1880.55,"body":"where most people don't want to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1877.55,"endTime":1880.55,"body":"go. So you think that they are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1880.55,"endTime":1883.49,"body":"luring them in in their cars and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1880.55,"endTime":1883.49,"body":"then driving them to these"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1883.55,"endTime":1886.52,"body":"locations where they end up? Or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1883.55,"endTime":1886.52,"body":"are they dumping them in the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1886.52,"endTime":1888.5,"body":"locations after they've murdered"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1886.52,"endTime":1888.5,"body":"them? Or?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1889.16,"endTime":1891.35,"body":"I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1889.16,"endTime":1891.35,"body":"I'm not sure I don't have access"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1891.35,"endTime":1897.53,"body":"to the police reports. Hmm. It"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1891.35,"endTime":1897.53,"body":"could be that most of these"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1897.65,"endTime":1904.04,"body":"recovery sites are near or at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1897.65,"endTime":1904.04,"body":"where the woman was killed. It"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1904.04,"endTime":1909.8,"body":"does vary in in some of the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1904.04,"endTime":1909.8,"body":"murders in Washington Park, the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1909.8,"endTime":1913.55,"body":"woman was recovered near her"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1909.8,"endTime":1913.55,"body":"home. And so that does suggest"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1913.7,"endTime":1918.14,"body":"or at her home on our property."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1913.7,"endTime":1918.14,"body":"So that suggests that she was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1918.14,"endTime":1924.14,"body":"killed where she was left. But"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1918.14,"endTime":1924.14,"body":"it may vary. i We there are some"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1924.14,"endTime":1928.82,"body":"things we don't know. We can be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1924.14,"endTime":1928.82,"body":"pretty confident that these are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1929.06,"endTime":1934.16,"body":"connected cases, we think there"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1929.06,"endTime":1934.16,"body":"are two or three serial killers"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1934.19,"endTime":1935.0,"body":"involved."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1935.599,"endTime":1937.939,"body":"Okay, so the part I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1935.599,"endTime":1937.939,"body":"don't understand. So there's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1937.939,"endTime":1942.589,"body":"very little DNA can collected."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1937.939,"endTime":1942.589,"body":"And none of the there's 21 DNA"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1942.589,"endTime":1945.499,"body":"samples, is that correct? And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1942.589,"endTime":1945.499,"body":"none of them match. How is that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":1945.499,"endTime":1946.279,"body":"possible then?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1947.089,"endTime":1949.819,"body":"Well, because"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1947.089,"endTime":1949.819,"body":"we think that we're dealing with"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1949.819,"endTime":1953.539,"body":"serial killers that don't leave"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1949.819,"endTime":1953.539,"body":"their DNA at the site. The fact"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1953.539,"endTime":1957.349,"body":"that there was so little there"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1953.539,"endTime":1957.349,"body":"were 21 DNA samples recovered"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1957.349,"endTime":1962.299,"body":"from 18 victims 18 out of 51."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1957.349,"endTime":1962.299,"body":"Okay, that alone is pretty"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1962.299,"endTime":1968.029,"body":"unusual. This is strangulation"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1962.299,"endTime":1968.029,"body":"murder, a very hands on kind of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1968.029,"endTime":1973.339,"body":"killing, involving sex workers"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1968.029,"endTime":1973.339,"body":"predominantly. There should be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1973.339,"endTime":1976.819,"body":"lots of DNA, and that there is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1973.339,"endTime":1976.819,"body":"so little is one of the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1976.819,"endTime":1982.189,"body":"mysteries of this case. In fact,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1976.819,"endTime":1982.189,"body":"I've had conversations with"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1982.189,"endTime":1985.579,"body":"Brendon Dena Han, the chief of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1982.189,"endTime":1985.579,"body":"detectives, who's gone back to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1985.579,"endTime":1990.409,"body":"check on this question, Why was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1985.579,"endTime":1990.409,"body":"there so little DNA? They're not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1990.409,"endTime":1995.179,"body":"sure. The the rate of which in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1990.409,"endTime":1995.179,"body":"which DNA is recovered from"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1995.179,"endTime":2000.819,"body":"crime scenes has been growing"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":1995.179,"endTime":2000.819,"body":"over time in Chicago. But the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2000.849,"endTime":2005.379,"body":"opposite is true. Among these"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2000.849,"endTime":2005.379,"body":"51. Overtime, the rate at which"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2005.379,"endTime":2009.579,"body":"DNA was recovered from the crime"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2005.379,"endTime":2009.579,"body":"scene has declined. So much so"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2009.579,"endTime":2012.849,"body":"that the last time police pulled"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2009.579,"endTime":2012.849,"body":"any DNA from a murder scene"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2012.879,"endTime":2016.989,"body":"among these strangulation"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2012.879,"endTime":2016.989,"body":"victims, was 2011. Angela"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2016.989,"endTime":2023.049,"body":"prophet. Wow, that's very, very"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2016.989,"endTime":2023.049,"body":"unusual and quite quite a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2023.049,"endTime":2026.979,"body":"mystery. We don't have an answer"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2023.049,"endTime":2026.979,"body":"for it. I mean, it could be that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2026.979,"endTime":2031.389,"body":"the killers are getting more"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2026.979,"endTime":2031.389,"body":"adept. They're, they're learning"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2031.389,"endTime":2035.769,"body":"how to kill without leaving"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2031.389,"endTime":2035.769,"body":"traces. It's possible that the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2035.799,"endTime":2042.009,"body":"killer's DNA is part of those 21"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2035.799,"endTime":2042.009,"body":"cases but they don't cross"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2042.009,"endTime":2047.259,"body":"match. Now, not that's not"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2042.009,"endTime":2047.259,"body":"exactly accurate. So in one"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2047.259,"endTime":2053.559,"body":"case, there was a woman who was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2047.259,"endTime":2053.559,"body":"murdered and DNA was recovered,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2054.039,"endTime":2059.649,"body":"and that DNA sample cross"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2054.039,"endTime":2059.649,"body":"matched to a sexual assault"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2059.859,"endTime":2064.389,"body":"where the victims survived. Was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2059.859,"endTime":2064.389,"body":"that Angela Ford was that I'm"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2064.389,"endTime":2072.789,"body":"not gonna say who it was. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2064.389,"endTime":2072.789,"body":"But police contacted her sister,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2073.059,"endTime":2077.919,"body":"who had been involved in sex"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2073.059,"endTime":2077.919,"body":"work with her and asked the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2077.919,"endTime":2083.289,"body":"surviving victim describes a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2077.919,"endTime":2083.289,"body":"white male with a moustache,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2083.469,"endTime":2087.519,"body":"apparently pretending to have an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2083.469,"endTime":2087.519,"body":"Hispanic accent. Does that ring"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2087.519,"endTime":2092.619,"body":"any bells? And the sisters said,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2087.519,"endTime":2092.619,"body":"No. I didn't meet anyone like"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2092.619,"endTime":2098.439,"body":"that, huh? But there may be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2092.619,"endTime":2098.439,"body":"other cases of crossmatch The"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2098.439,"endTime":2101.589,"body":"problem is they don't know who"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2098.439,"endTime":2101.589,"body":"the Killer is, and we've been"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2101.589,"endTime":2107.529,"body":"encouraging the police to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2101.589,"endTime":2107.529,"body":"consider familial DNA work,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2107.859,"endTime":2113.019,"body":"where you look for families of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2107.859,"endTime":2113.019,"body":"those 21 samples trying to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2113.019,"endTime":2117.699,"body":"identify the offender that way,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2113.019,"endTime":2117.699,"body":"it has been very successful."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2117.699,"endTime":2122.619,"body":"It's what caught the Golden Gate"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2117.699,"endTime":2122.619,"body":"killer. In California, it can"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2122.619,"endTime":2125.619,"body":"work, it's a lot of work. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2122.619,"endTime":2125.619,"body":"again, it's not a magic bullet."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2125.619,"endTime":2129.279,"body":"And they keep saying they're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2125.619,"endTime":2129.279,"body":"going to try to do this. But"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2129.279,"endTime":2131.019,"body":"we're waiting to hear the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2129.279,"endTime":2131.019,"body":"results."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2131.68,"endTime":2134.71,"body":"So you think it's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2131.68,"endTime":2134.71,"body":"two or three separate people"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2134.71,"endTime":2138.19,"body":"that and they just all happen to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2134.71,"endTime":2138.19,"body":"have similar ways of killing and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2138.19,"endTime":2139.36,"body":"disposing of the bodies?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2139.69,"endTime":2142.57,"body":"Yes, well, so"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2139.69,"endTime":2142.57,"body":"if you're a serial killer in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2142.57,"endTime":2146.68,"body":"Chicago, that's probably the way"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2142.57,"endTime":2146.68,"body":"you're most likely going to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2147.94,"endTime":2152.59,"body":"practice your craft, killing out"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2147.94,"endTime":2152.59,"body":"of doors, killing strangers"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2152.59,"endTime":2157.18,"body":"leaving their bodies in disposal"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2152.59,"endTime":2157.18,"body":"sites that are easily"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2157.18,"endTime":2162.25,"body":"obtainable. So, yeah, a serial"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2157.18,"endTime":2162.25,"body":"killer would naturally fall into"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2162.25,"endTime":2165.1,"body":"that pattern, which was one of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2162.25,"endTime":2165.1,"body":"the reasons why the narratives"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2165.1,"endTime":2168.97,"body":"of these murders was so"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2165.1,"endTime":2168.97,"body":"indicative of these being"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2168.97,"endTime":2170.56,"body":"connected homicides,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2170.71,"endTime":2172.96,"body":"but but they're all"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2170.71,"endTime":2172.96,"body":"using the same method with the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2172.96,"endTime":2176.11,"body":"strangulation or fixation."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2172.96,"endTime":2176.11,"body":"There's no, none of them are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2176.11,"endTime":2179.77,"body":"stabbed, none of them are shot,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2176.11,"endTime":2179.77,"body":"none of them are hit over the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2179.77,"endTime":2183.73,"body":"head with a blunt object. So why"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2179.77,"endTime":2183.73,"body":"that's a more personal way with"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2183.73,"endTime":2186.58,"body":"the strangulation Is that Is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2183.73,"endTime":2186.58,"body":"that pretty common those as well"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2186.58,"endTime":2187.9,"body":"with sex workers and such?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2188.5,"endTime":2191.59,"body":"It is it is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2188.5,"endTime":2191.59,"body":"common for a serial killer to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2191.59,"endTime":2195.76,"body":"stick to a method. That having"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2191.59,"endTime":2195.76,"body":"been said, there's not a reason"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2195.76,"endTime":2197.71,"body":"in the world to think of what"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2195.76,"endTime":2197.71,"body":"you just said, is being"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2197.71,"endTime":2202.09,"body":"completely true. That serial"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2197.71,"endTime":2202.09,"body":"killers do mix up a little bit"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2202.12,"endTime":2207.43,"body":"their methods, they may"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2202.12,"endTime":2207.43,"body":"primarily stab or strangle, it"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2207.43,"endTime":2213.01,"body":"may, there may be a contingency"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2207.43,"endTime":2213.01,"body":"that causes them to vary, we are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2213.01,"endTime":2217.84,"body":"only able to identify these 51"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2213.01,"endTime":2217.84,"body":"because of a particular method,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2218.08,"endTime":2219.52,"body":"right? But I'm"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2218.08,"endTime":2219.52,"body":"saying like if they're if"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2219.52,"endTime":2222.46,"body":"there's two or three, isn't it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2219.52,"endTime":2222.46,"body":"interesting that they're all"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2222.46,"endTime":2225.7,"body":"using the same method? Like not"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2222.46,"endTime":2225.7,"body":"one of them? is using a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2225.7,"endTime":2228.19,"body":"different method? Or I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2225.7,"endTime":2228.19,"body":"that seems kind of interesting"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2228.19,"endTime":2230.47,"body":"to me, like, is that the most"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2228.19,"endTime":2230.47,"body":"common method for serial"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2230.47,"endTime":2230.92,"body":"killers?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2232.69,"endTime":2235.9,"body":"It's a common"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2232.69,"endTime":2235.9,"body":"one, certainly. Because you do"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2235.9,"endTime":2243.64,"body":"get the hands on contact with"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2235.9,"endTime":2243.64,"body":"the victim. But again, it's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2243.64,"endTime":2246.04,"body":"possible that when they solve"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2243.64,"endTime":2246.04,"body":"when they catch one of these"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2246.04,"endTime":2250.78,"body":"guys, they'll find other"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2246.04,"endTime":2250.78,"body":"homicides that didn't quite have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2250.78,"endTime":2254.62,"body":"this particular signature. Okay?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2250.78,"endTime":2254.62,"body":"Okay. There's no reason to think"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2254.62,"endTime":2258.91,"body":"that 51 is the right number, or"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2254.62,"endTime":2258.91,"body":"that it had to be strangulation"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2258.91,"endTime":2260.98,"body":"in every case, no reason"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2258.91,"endTime":2260.98,"body":"whatsoever."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2261.31,"endTime":2263.92,"body":"How smart Do you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2261.31,"endTime":2263.92,"body":"think this guy is? Like, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2263.95,"endTime":2267.46,"body":"and he must be good to not be"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2263.95,"endTime":2267.46,"body":"leaving DNA? Or if it's, again,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2267.46,"endTime":2270.16,"body":"if it's two or three, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2267.46,"endTime":2270.16,"body":"maybe they're all really smart."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2270.52,"endTime":2272.56,"body":"Or I mean, they just getting"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2270.52,"endTime":2272.56,"body":"lucky."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2273.94,"endTime":2277.27,"body":"Hannibal Lecter"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2273.94,"endTime":2277.27,"body":"is a Hollywood fiction, that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2278.56,"endTime":2284.11,"body":"serial killers are probably, at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2278.56,"endTime":2284.11,"body":"best average intelligence, and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2284.11,"endTime":2288.01,"body":"many of them are sub average"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2284.11,"endTime":2288.01,"body":"intelligence. I mean, if you had"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2288.01,"endTime":2292.27,"body":"any brains at all, you wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2288.01,"endTime":2292.27,"body":"get into serial killing as a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2292.51,"endTime":2296.98,"body":"source of your amusement. I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2292.51,"endTime":2296.98,"body":"mean, that's stupid. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2296.98,"endTime":2301.39,"body":"eventually, we hope there'll be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2296.98,"endTime":2301.39,"body":"caught. But no, these are not."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2301.42,"endTime":2305.44,"body":"These are not evil geniuses who"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2301.42,"endTime":2305.44,"body":"are evading capture through"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2305.44,"endTime":2309.58,"body":"their intellect. Now they're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2305.44,"endTime":2309.58,"body":"they're evading capture, because"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2309.58,"endTime":2313.48,"body":"there are so many murders. There"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2309.58,"endTime":2313.48,"body":"are more than 5000 unsolved"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2313.48,"endTime":2318.7,"body":"murders in Chicago since 2000,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2313.48,"endTime":2318.7,"body":"approaching 6000 Now, and that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2318.7,"endTime":2323.05,"body":"just a ton of work facing the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2318.7,"endTime":2323.05,"body":"police. They're doing the best"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2323.05,"endTime":2326.68,"body":"they can. But like so many other"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2323.05,"endTime":2326.68,"body":"police departments, they're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2326.68,"endTime":2327.97,"body":"overwhelmed. Mm hmm."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2328.06,"endTime":2331.06,"body":"So maybe average"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2328.06,"endTime":2331.06,"body":"intelligence, but do you think"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2331.06,"endTime":2334.21,"body":"that maybe they have techniques"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2331.06,"endTime":2334.21,"body":"of law enforcement? Like is it"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2334.21,"endTime":2336.7,"body":"possibly an inside job somebody"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2334.21,"endTime":2336.7,"body":"with a law enforcement"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2336.7,"endTime":2339.13,"body":"background like the Golden State"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2336.7,"endTime":2339.13,"body":"killer, or is it just someone"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2339.13,"endTime":2342.01,"body":"that maybe has watched some"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2339.13,"endTime":2342.01,"body":"Forensic Files episodes, or they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2342.01,"endTime":2344.38,"body":"must know a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2342.01,"endTime":2344.38,"body":"destroying evidence?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2344.59,"endTime":2349.15,"body":"Yeah, I'm sure"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2344.59,"endTime":2349.15,"body":"they watch TV and learn"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2349.15,"endTime":2356.02,"body":"something from that. And as they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2349.15,"endTime":2356.02,"body":"get practice, they get better"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2356.86,"endTime":2363.07,"body":"serial killer kills over and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2356.86,"endTime":2363.07,"body":"over again. And each time he"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2363.07,"endTime":2368.2,"body":"knows a little bit more than the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2363.07,"endTime":2368.2,"body":"time before. So with practice"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2368.2,"endTime":2376.09,"body":"comes greater abilities, I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2368.2,"endTime":2376.09,"body":"guess. It's not uncommon for a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2376.15,"endTime":2381.19,"body":"killer to evade capture for"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2376.15,"endTime":2381.19,"body":"many, many years that you were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2381.19,"endTime":2386.62,"body":"growing up the Green River"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2381.19,"endTime":2386.62,"body":"Killer had smaller task force,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2386.65,"endTime":2390.01,"body":"and this is one of the finest"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2386.65,"endTime":2390.01,"body":"law enforcement investigations"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2390.01,"endTime":2394.57,"body":"ever launched a series of multi"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2390.01,"endTime":2394.57,"body":"agency, good cops who worked"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2395.11,"endTime":2401.11,"body":"tirelessly for years, and they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2395.11,"endTime":2401.11,"body":"only caught him when DNA came"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2401.11,"endTime":2405.19,"body":"along. And they only had two"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2401.11,"endTime":2405.19,"body":"samples of all of those victims."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2405.19,"endTime":2409.69,"body":"They only had two DNA samples"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2405.19,"endTime":2409.69,"body":"that cross matched that proved"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2409.69,"endTime":2410.68,"body":"who it was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2410.71,"endTime":2414.52,"body":"really? Oh, that I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2410.71,"endTime":2414.52,"body":"didn't know. Yeah. Oh, that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2415.51,"endTime":2419.92,"body":"also what's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2415.51,"endTime":2419.92,"body":"interesting. He was a Ridgeway"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2419.92,"endTime":2427.03,"body":"was a, a suspect early on. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2419.92,"endTime":2427.03,"body":"that's what I thought he, he"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2427.03,"endTime":2430.93,"body":"passed a polygraph. They gave"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2427.03,"endTime":2430.93,"body":"him a lie detector test he"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2430.93,"endTime":2433.72,"body":"passed. And so he was taken off"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2430.93,"endTime":2433.72,"body":"the list. How did"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2433.72,"endTime":2435.97,"body":"he do that? And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2433.72,"endTime":2435.97,"body":"this guy, it was not like he was"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2435.97,"endTime":2438.07,"body":"definitely average intelligence,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2435.97,"endTime":2438.07,"body":"right. I mean, he was like a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2438.07,"endTime":2439.75,"body":"factory worker or something. He"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2438.07,"endTime":2439.75,"body":"wasn't."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2440.26,"endTime":2442.96,"body":"No, no, trust"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2440.26,"endTime":2442.96,"body":"me. Ridgeway is no evil genius."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2442.96,"endTime":2446.5,"body":"Yeah. But he passed his"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2442.96,"endTime":2446.5,"body":"polygraph. It's one of the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2446.5,"endTime":2450.31,"body":"reasons why courts correctly"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2446.5,"endTime":2450.31,"body":"will not accept polygraph"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2450.31,"endTime":2455.17,"body":"evidence as evidence because"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2450.31,"endTime":2455.17,"body":"it's not reliable. And Ridgeway"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2455.17,"endTime":2460.57,"body":"proved it. Yeah, he was an early"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2455.17,"endTime":2460.57,"body":"suspect, because he was known to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2460.57,"endTime":2465.73,"body":"be trolling areas where sex"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2460.57,"endTime":2465.73,"body":"workers plied their trade and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2466.33,"endTime":2470.08,"body":"just sort of fit the profile."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2466.33,"endTime":2470.08,"body":"But they had to take him off the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2470.08,"endTime":2473.02,"body":"list when he scored is telling"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2470.08,"endTime":2473.02,"body":"the truth."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2473.08,"endTime":2477.58,"body":"So 48 for Ridgeway,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2473.08,"endTime":2477.58,"body":"and you said only two had"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2477.58,"endTime":2480.85,"body":"evidence and also there could"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2477.58,"endTime":2480.85,"body":"have been more than 48 that they"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2480.85,"endTime":2482.8,"body":"just never found the bodies,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2480.85,"endTime":2482.8,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2483.79,"endTime":2486.37,"body":"Yeah, he says"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2483.79,"endTime":2486.37,"body":"he killed more than 70. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2486.73,"endTime":2490.9,"body":"nobody, nobody calls him a liar."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2486.73,"endTime":2490.9,"body":"The judge in the case insisted"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2490.9,"endTime":2499.69,"body":"that I'm not going to just name"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2490.9,"endTime":2499.69,"body":"victim 58 and say that you're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2499.69,"endTime":2503.74,"body":"guilty of that I need proof that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2499.69,"endTime":2503.74,"body":"what Ridgeway was confessing to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2503.74,"endTime":2507.61,"body":"is accurate. So they're able to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2503.74,"endTime":2507.61,"body":"document 48 victims, they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2507.61,"endTime":2510.58,"body":"weren't they didn't name them"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2507.61,"endTime":2510.58,"body":"all, by the way, but they were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2510.58,"endTime":2515.77,"body":"able to prove recovered remains."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2510.58,"endTime":2515.77,"body":"But the judge quite correctly,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2516.01,"endTime":2521.05,"body":"wanted evidentiary support for"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2516.01,"endTime":2521.05,"body":"the confessions that Ridgeway"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2521.05,"endTime":2526.0,"body":"eventually made. He probably did"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2521.05,"endTime":2526.0,"body":"kill more than 70 people. But he"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2526.0,"endTime":2530.05,"body":"was convicted for 48. And until"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2526.0,"endTime":2530.05,"body":"Samuel Liddell came along, he"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2530.05,"endTime":2534.82,"body":"was the the lead, he was the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2530.05,"endTime":2534.82,"body":"worst serial killer in modern"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2534.82,"endTime":2535.48,"body":"times."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2535.779,"endTime":2537.819,"body":"Yeah, so explain to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2535.779,"endTime":2537.819,"body":"my audience Samuel little, I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2537.819,"endTime":2539.649,"body":"think I'm just learning about"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2537.819,"endTime":2539.649,"body":"this one myself."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2541.18,"endTime":2546.34,"body":"Yeah, so little"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2541.18,"endTime":2546.34,"body":"was every cops nightmare, a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2546.34,"endTime":2551.5,"body":"mobile serial killer. He"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2546.34,"endTime":2551.5,"body":"traveled the country. In fact,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2551.56,"endTime":2554.5,"body":"apparently about the only city"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2551.56,"endTime":2554.5,"body":"major city where he didn't kill"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2554.5,"endTime":2561.43,"body":"a woman was Chicago, just about"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2554.5,"endTime":2561.43,"body":"everywhere else. He He was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2561.43,"endTime":2568.75,"body":"eventually caught when three DNA"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2561.43,"endTime":2568.75,"body":"matches occurred in California."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2569.41,"endTime":2574.06,"body":"And he was convicted on the DNA."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2569.41,"endTime":2574.06,"body":"And then there was a cross match"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2574.33,"endTime":2584.05,"body":"in Texas. And so a Texas Ranger"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2574.33,"endTime":2584.05,"body":"went to interview him and after"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2584.05,"endTime":2589.69,"body":"three days of being sworn at and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2584.05,"endTime":2589.69,"body":"yelled at, he got little to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2589.69,"endTime":2595.54,"body":"confess to killing 93 women, and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2589.69,"endTime":2595.54,"body":"they've not been able to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2595.54,"endTime":2599.71,"body":"identify all of those bodies,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2595.54,"endTime":2599.71,"body":"they're still working those"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2599.74,"endTime":2604.3,"body":"identifications. I believe"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2599.74,"endTime":2604.3,"body":"they've been able to hard"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2604.3,"endTime":2609.97,"body":"identify about 60 of those"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2604.3,"endTime":2609.97,"body":"victims. But little gets the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2609.97,"endTime":2614.71,"body":"prize for the most dangerous"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2609.97,"endTime":2614.71,"body":"serial killer in modern times."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2614.739,"endTime":2617.889,"body":"So with littles in"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2614.739,"endTime":2617.889,"body":"there 60 identified how many of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2617.889,"endTime":2619.329,"body":"those had DNA Do you know?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2620.08,"endTime":2622.15,"body":"I don't. In"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2620.08,"endTime":2622.15,"body":"fact, I would really like to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2622.15,"endTime":2625.75,"body":"know that. I'd also like to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2622.15,"endTime":2625.75,"body":"know, you think a guy like that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2625.75,"endTime":2630.46,"body":"should have lit up codice that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2625.75,"endTime":2630.46,"body":"the Combined DNA database that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2630.46,"endTime":2634.51,"body":"the FBI runs? He should have lit"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2630.46,"endTime":2634.51,"body":"up codice for years and years"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2634.51,"endTime":2638.41,"body":"and years. I don't think he did."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2634.51,"endTime":2638.41,"body":"I don't I'd like to know more. I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2638.41,"endTime":2645.07,"body":"wish that someone would run an"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2638.41,"endTime":2645.07,"body":"analysis of of littles"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2645.46,"endTime":2649.99,"body":"appearances in the CODIS"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2645.46,"endTime":2649.99,"body":"database. It was kind of late in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2649.99,"endTime":2654.37,"body":"his career before he caught he'd"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2649.99,"endTime":2654.37,"body":"been killing for decades. Wow,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2654.4,"endTime":2657.13,"body":"that's so scary."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2654.4,"endTime":2657.13,"body":"Now. So back, this is the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2657.13,"endTime":2661.45,"body":"Chicago strangler. There was a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2657.13,"endTime":2661.45,"body":"gap between 2014 and 2017, where"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2661.45,"endTime":2665.71,"body":"there was no murders that that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2661.45,"endTime":2665.71,"body":"they know of, but that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2665.71,"endTime":2668.26,"body":"mean that necessarily there"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2665.71,"endTime":2668.26,"body":"wasn't any they maybe just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2668.26,"endTime":2670.87,"body":"haven't found those bodies or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2668.26,"endTime":2670.87,"body":"it's possible you thought maybe"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2670.87,"endTime":2672.97,"body":"he was in prison or he had"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2670.87,"endTime":2672.97,"body":"health problems."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2673.33,"endTime":2677.77,"body":"Yeah, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2673.33,"endTime":2677.77,"body":"gaps can be an indicator about"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2678.07,"endTime":2680.98,"body":"the killer that the killer"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2678.07,"endTime":2680.98,"body":"doesn't kill during a certain"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2680.98,"endTime":2686.38,"body":"period for a reason. He was out"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2680.98,"endTime":2686.38,"body":"of state or in prison. That's a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2686.38,"endTime":2691.21,"body":"common reason. Serial killers"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2686.38,"endTime":2691.21,"body":"usually are known to police."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2691.21,"endTime":2695.17,"body":"That's a phrase that means"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2691.21,"endTime":2695.17,"body":"they've been in trouble before"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2695.71,"endTime":2702.31,"body":"and they usually have a rap"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2695.71,"endTime":2702.31,"body":"sheet Usually, prison time"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2702.31,"endTime":2702.85,"body":"record."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2703.81,"endTime":2707.65,"body":"Oh, my Sorry, I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2703.81,"endTime":2707.65,"body":"lost you on the video."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2708.73,"endTime":2709.99,"body":"Are you still"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2708.73,"endTime":2709.99,"body":"seeing me? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2709.99,"endTime":2715.18,"body":"I'm still seeing"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2709.99,"endTime":2715.18,"body":"you. Yeah. There goes. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2715.18,"endTime":2717.31,"body":"we'll just we'll just keep"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2715.18,"endTime":2717.31,"body":"talking. I think hopefully it'll"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2717.31,"endTime":2721.9,"body":"come back. I think it just got a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2717.31,"endTime":2721.9,"body":"little hot here. But we'll keep"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2721.9,"endTime":2726.67,"body":"talking. Yeah. So anyways, the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2721.9,"endTime":2726.67,"body":"Yeah. So the you think there's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2726.67,"endTime":2731.14,"body":"three killers, one is likely"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2726.67,"endTime":2731.14,"body":"white, and two are more African"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2731.17,"endTime":2732.31,"body":"American offenders. Is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2732.31,"endTime":2735.37,"body":"that correct?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2732.31,"endTime":2735.37,"body":"Yes, that's what we believe. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2735.37,"endTime":2737.05,"body":"you think that these are all"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2735.37,"endTime":2737.05,"body":"separate?"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2737.53,"endTime":2740.26,"body":"Random killers are"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2737.53,"endTime":2740.26,"body":"possibly possible that some of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2740.26,"endTime":2741.7,"body":"these killers are working"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2740.26,"endTime":2741.7,"body":"together."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2742.51,"endTime":2746.02,"body":"So it has"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2742.51,"endTime":2746.02,"body":"happened that killers have"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2746.02,"endTime":2750.49,"body":"worked in pairs, but it's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2746.02,"endTime":2750.49,"body":"extremely, extremely rare. There"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2750.49,"endTime":2755.26,"body":"is no chat side or bulletin"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2750.49,"endTime":2755.26,"body":"board for serial killers. It's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2755.26,"endTime":2758.29,"body":"hard for them to find each"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2755.26,"endTime":2758.29,"body":"other. And if they did, they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2758.29,"endTime":2763.6,"body":"probably wouldn't like each"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2758.29,"endTime":2763.6,"body":"other. So it's rare. But it does"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2763.6,"endTime":2767.95,"body":"happen. So mathematically going"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2763.6,"endTime":2767.95,"body":"with the math, I'd say that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2768.1,"endTime":2772.42,"body":"these three killers are acting"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2768.1,"endTime":2772.42,"body":"quite independently because"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2772.87,"endTime":2775.78,"body":"that's the most likely likely"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2772.87,"endTime":2775.78,"body":"scenario."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2775.96,"endTime":2778.39,"body":"And so Vaughn is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2775.96,"endTime":2778.39,"body":"one of them that some of these"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2778.39,"endTime":2780.94,"body":"work. Some of it could have been"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2778.39,"endTime":2780.94,"body":"his work. I also heard the name"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2781.33,"endTime":2784.36,"body":"Arthur Hillard. Is he possibly"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2781.33,"endTime":2784.36,"body":"one of the suspects,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2784.9,"endTime":2787.3,"body":"where he was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2784.9,"endTime":2787.3,"body":"arrested. And this is one for"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2787.3,"endTime":2791.17,"body":"the books. He's the only case"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2787.3,"endTime":2791.17,"body":"we're now down to 50 on salt"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2791.17,"endTime":2796.78,"body":"strangulations. He was arrested."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2791.17,"endTime":2796.78,"body":"About a year ago, when DNA"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2796.78,"endTime":2804.19,"body":"finally came back. They had some"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2796.78,"endTime":2804.19,"body":"of the victims DNA in his"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2804.19,"endTime":2810.58,"body":"apartment, and it was the victim"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2804.19,"endTime":2810.58,"body":"and they were able to charge him"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2810.58,"endTime":2816.22,"body":"with murder. They immediately"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2810.58,"endTime":2816.22,"body":"announced that we suspect him of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2816.64,"endTime":2821.86,"body":"two other murders both of men."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2816.64,"endTime":2821.86,"body":"One was a man that was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2821.89,"endTime":2827.8,"body":"wheelchair bound, who's who was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2821.89,"endTime":2827.8,"body":"photographed by a security"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2827.8,"endTime":2836.32,"body":"camera being thrown in a garbage"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2827.8,"endTime":2836.32,"body":"can a big bin by Mr. Hilliard."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2837.04,"endTime":2842.32,"body":"Hilliard was convicted of in"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2837.04,"endTime":2842.32,"body":"appropriate disposal of human"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2842.32,"endTime":2847.3,"body":"remains, but not of his murder."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2842.32,"endTime":2847.3,"body":"Well, police said they think"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2847.3,"endTime":2852.25,"body":"that he's guilty of that murder,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2847.3,"endTime":2852.25,"body":"and of a third murder. And I've"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2852.25,"endTime":2857.17,"body":"talked to chief of detectives,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2852.25,"endTime":2857.17,"body":"Brendon Deena Han about"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2857.17,"endTime":2862.27,"body":"Hilliard. This is they're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2857.17,"endTime":2862.27,"body":"thinking that Mr. Hilliard is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2862.27,"endTime":2866.44,"body":"weird enough. He's violent"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2862.27,"endTime":2866.44,"body":"enough. But they're not sure"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2866.44,"endTime":2871.42,"body":"he's the kind of guy that goes"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2866.44,"endTime":2871.42,"body":"crawling along. Hooker walks"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2871.45,"endTime":2875.92,"body":"looking for prostitutes to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2871.45,"endTime":2875.92,"body":"murder. They can't they can't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2876.22,"endTime":2883.66,"body":"put that mo to him. So they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2876.22,"endTime":2883.66,"body":"think he's a serial killer. They"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2883.66,"endTime":2885.91,"body":"just don't think he's our serial"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2883.66,"endTime":2885.91,"body":"killer."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2886.719,"endTime":2890.259,"body":"Okay, so Okay, so"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2886.719,"endTime":2890.259,"body":"is there any other suspects? Or"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2890.259,"endTime":2891.159,"body":"can you not say?"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2891.61,"endTime":2895.78,"body":"I'm not to my"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2891.61,"endTime":2895.78,"body":"knowledge. Okay. Well, the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2895.78,"endTime":2899.95,"body":"police have they think they've"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2895.78,"endTime":2899.95,"body":"cleared one or two cases. I'm"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2899.95,"endTime":2903.4,"body":"not sure they have. They've"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2899.95,"endTime":2903.4,"body":"cleared but are unable to bring"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2903.4,"endTime":2907.03,"body":"cases to court, because the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2903.4,"endTime":2907.03,"body":"State's Attorney's Office"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2907.03,"endTime":2909.22,"body":"disagrees with them as to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2907.03,"endTime":2909.22,"body":"whether the evidence is"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2909.22,"endTime":2914.47,"body":"sufficient. That's a common"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2909.22,"endTime":2914.47,"body":"issue in law enforcement that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2914.47,"endTime":2919.96,"body":"prosecutors don't think it's a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2914.47,"endTime":2919.96,"body":"winnable case. So I don't know"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2919.96,"endTime":2925.54,"body":"in in one case, that police"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2919.96,"endTime":2925.54,"body":"suspect a boyfriend of one of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2925.54,"endTime":2931.09,"body":"the one of the Washington Park"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2925.54,"endTime":2931.09,"body":"murders, but they they were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2931.09,"endTime":2936.19,"body":"never able to take it to trial."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2931.09,"endTime":2936.19,"body":"And what's odd was, there were"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2936.22,"endTime":2941.23,"body":"two murders that occurred 24"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2936.22,"endTime":2941.23,"body":"hours apart. at opposite ends of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2941.23,"endTime":2945.49,"body":"Washington Park. Both victims"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2941.23,"endTime":2945.49,"body":"were put in a large trashcan,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2945.55,"endTime":2952.96,"body":"Both victims were set on fire."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2945.55,"endTime":2952.96,"body":"Wow. Was it likely that one of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2952.96,"endTime":2956.95,"body":"those victims was killed by a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2952.96,"endTime":2956.95,"body":"boyfriend? Or was it likely that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2956.95,"endTime":2961.0,"body":"both victims were the victim of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2956.95,"endTime":2961.0,"body":"a serial killer? The the pattern"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2961.0,"endTime":2966.31,"body":"is absurdly similar. So I don't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2961.0,"endTime":2966.31,"body":"know. I don't know that they"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2966.34,"endTime":2971.05,"body":"their suspect is right. But you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2966.34,"endTime":2971.05,"body":"know, only only time we hope"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2971.05,"endTime":2976.33,"body":"will tell. But right now,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2971.05,"endTime":2976.33,"body":"they're all part of a of a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2976.33,"endTime":2980.65,"body":"pretty large package of unsolved"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2976.33,"endTime":2980.65,"body":"murders that look quite quite"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":2980.65,"endTime":2981.1,"body":"similar."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2981.13,"endTime":2983.29,"body":"Yeah. And then"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2981.13,"endTime":2983.29,"body":"you're doing a great job getting"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2983.29,"endTime":2986.83,"body":"this data. So what else can we"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2983.29,"endTime":2986.83,"body":"can people do to help? I know"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2986.83,"endTime":2990.67,"body":"you'd mentioned that Denmark is"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2986.83,"endTime":2990.67,"body":"a country that has a better"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2990.67,"endTime":2994.6,"body":"clearance rate for murder and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2990.67,"endTime":2994.6,"body":"then they make changes rather"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2994.6,"endTime":2997.9,"body":"than incarcerating people. You"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2994.6,"endTime":2997.9,"body":"know, because incarceration just"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2997.9,"endTime":3001.08,"body":"makes for a better criminal."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":2997.9,"endTime":3001.08,"body":"They I try to help people get"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3001.08,"endTime":3003.63,"body":"back on their feet, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3001.08,"endTime":3003.63,"body":"something like that could help"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3003.63,"endTime":3004.29,"body":"our country."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3005.31,"endTime":3008.94,"body":"Yeah. A few"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3005.31,"endTime":3008.94,"body":"years ago, I gave a presentation"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3008.94,"endTime":3012.03,"body":"for the International Homicide"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3008.94,"endTime":3012.03,"body":"investigators Association. And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3012.03,"endTime":3015.84,"body":"they gave me a free lunch. And I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3012.03,"endTime":3015.84,"body":"was sitting next to the chief"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3015.84,"endTime":3018.78,"body":"homicide investigator for"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3015.84,"endTime":3018.78,"body":"Denmark, who was a sweet, sweet"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3018.78,"endTime":3023.34,"body":"man. And to make conversation I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3018.78,"endTime":3023.34,"body":"asked him, How many murders Do"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3023.34,"endTime":3027.84,"body":"you have a year in Denmark? And"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3023.34,"endTime":3027.84,"body":"he said, oh, about 50. And I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3027.84,"endTime":3031.47,"body":"asked about Good heavens, that's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3027.84,"endTime":3031.47,"body":"like a slow weekend and most of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3031.47,"endTime":3035.55,"body":"our cities, how many? How many"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3031.47,"endTime":3035.55,"body":"of those do you clear through"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3035.55,"endTime":3040.29,"body":"arrest? And he said every year"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3035.55,"endTime":3040.29,"body":"about 49. And I was just"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3040.29,"endTime":3043.53,"body":"astonished that they're claiming"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3040.29,"endTime":3043.53,"body":"a 98% clearance rate, which"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3043.53,"endTime":3047.73,"body":"turns out to be the truth. And I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3043.53,"endTime":3047.73,"body":"told him, boy, you shouldn't be"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3047.73,"endTime":3051.87,"body":"attending this conference. You"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3047.73,"endTime":3051.87,"body":"should be leading it. Yeah, he"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3051.87,"endTime":3058.11,"body":"is very, very interesting guy."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3051.87,"endTime":3058.11,"body":"And this is a demonstration of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3058.14,"endTime":3063.75,"body":"how we got it wrong in America."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3058.14,"endTime":3063.75,"body":"If a homicide is investigated by"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3063.75,"endTime":3067.83,"body":"local police, and the police are"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3063.75,"endTime":3067.83,"body":"unable to make an arrest. That's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3067.83,"endTime":3073.44,"body":"the end of it. There is no"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3067.83,"endTime":3073.44,"body":"layers of review. The State"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3073.44,"endTime":3077.04,"body":"Police don't call the same as"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3073.44,"endTime":3077.04,"body":"that case going to have you made"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3077.04,"endTime":3081.33,"body":"any progress. Is there anything"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3077.04,"endTime":3081.33,"body":"we can suggest? Can we give you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3081.33,"endTime":3084.51,"body":"any resources? The federal"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3081.33,"endTime":3084.51,"body":"government doesn't call to ask"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3084.51,"endTime":3088.05,"body":"the same questions. None of that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3084.51,"endTime":3088.05,"body":"happens. It's all local"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3088.05,"endTime":3091.2,"body":"government and local government"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3088.05,"endTime":3091.2,"body":"only and that local government"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3091.2,"endTime":3098.16,"body":"may be broke. In Denmark, every"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3091.2,"endTime":3098.16,"body":"murder crosses this guy's desk."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3098.58,"endTime":3102.0,"body":"And if a case has gone unsolved,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3098.58,"endTime":3102.0,"body":"after a few weeks, he'll call"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3102.36,"endTime":3105.45,"body":"and ask do I need to come out"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3102.36,"endTime":3105.45,"body":"there? What's it going to take"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3105.45,"endTime":3108.24,"body":"to clear this? Tell me what"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3105.45,"endTime":3108.24,"body":"you've got, tell me what you've"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3108.24,"endTime":3112.26,"body":"done so far. You need more"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3108.24,"endTime":3112.26,"body":"resources, what's it going to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3112.26,"endTime":3116.58,"body":"take, and having that kind of"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3112.26,"endTime":3116.58,"body":"conversation and for a local"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3116.58,"endTime":3119.94,"body":"detective, to know that he or"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3116.58,"endTime":3119.94,"body":"she will have to defend his"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3119.94,"endTime":3124.98,"body":"work? Before a federal review,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3119.94,"endTime":3124.98,"body":"you know, this guy works for the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3124.98,"endTime":3130.02,"body":"national government probably"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3124.98,"endTime":3130.02,"body":"assists and making sure that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3130.02,"endTime":3134.88,"body":"you've dotted all the i's and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3130.02,"endTime":3134.88,"body":"cross the T's. And as I was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3134.88,"endTime":3137.28,"body":"sitting with this guy talking, I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3134.88,"endTime":3137.28,"body":"was thinking I'd hate to be a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3137.28,"endTime":3143.49,"body":"killer, and have this guy on my"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3137.28,"endTime":3143.49,"body":"ass. Right? Really sharp. He was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3143.49,"endTime":3146.37,"body":"probably the best homicide"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3143.49,"endTime":3146.37,"body":"detective in Denmark, and he was"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3146.37,"endTime":3150.15,"body":"in charge of it all. And I think"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3146.37,"endTime":3150.15,"body":"it's comforting to know that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3150.15,"endTime":3153.69,"body":"there's one guy who looks at"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3150.15,"endTime":3153.69,"body":"every murder, especially the"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3153.69,"endTime":3157.62,"body":"unsolved murders. And we don't"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3153.69,"endTime":3157.62,"body":"have that in this country, we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3157.62,"endTime":3158.7,"body":"don't have any of that."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3158.73,"endTime":3160.77,"body":"So that's kind of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3158.73,"endTime":3160.77,"body":"one of the biggest things that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3160.77,"endTime":3164.07,"body":"people can do is, I think, shine"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3160.77,"endTime":3164.07,"body":"a light on this. That's why"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3164.07,"endTime":3166.2,"body":"another one of the reasons I'm"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3164.07,"endTime":3166.2,"body":"having you on here is to kind of"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3166.23,"endTime":3168.57,"body":"bring attention to it, because"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3166.23,"endTime":3168.57,"body":"obviously, we need more"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3168.57,"endTime":3171.18,"body":"resources. That seems to be the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3168.57,"endTime":3171.18,"body":"number one thing, there's needs"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3171.18,"endTime":3175.92,"body":"to be more resources to police"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3171.18,"endTime":3175.92,"body":"and homicide and, and all this"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3175.92,"endTime":3176.82,"body":"stuff, right."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3177.06,"endTime":3179.49,"body":"And people need"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3177.06,"endTime":3179.49,"body":"to cooperate, we need to heal"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3179.49,"endTime":3183.75,"body":"the relationship between police"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3179.49,"endTime":3183.75,"body":"and the public that they serve."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3184.23,"endTime":3189.09,"body":"We need that. We're hoping that"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3184.23,"endTime":3189.09,"body":"the data we post becomes a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3189.09,"endTime":3193.8,"body":"political force unto itself. We"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3189.09,"endTime":3193.8,"body":"have urge people to go to murder"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3193.8,"endTime":3199.23,"body":"data.org, click on clearance"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3193.8,"endTime":3199.23,"body":"rate, call up your hometown, and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3199.23,"endTime":3202.44,"body":"look at how many murders you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3199.23,"endTime":3202.44,"body":"have, and how often those"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3202.44,"endTime":3205.83,"body":"murders are cleared. And if you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3202.44,"endTime":3205.83,"body":"don't like what you see, and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3205.83,"endTime":3209.49,"body":"increasingly the odds are you"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3205.83,"endTime":3209.49,"body":"won't like what you see, we hope"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3209.49,"endTime":3211.89,"body":"you don't sit on that knowledge."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3209.49,"endTime":3211.89,"body":"We hope that you'll have a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3211.89,"endTime":3215.61,"body":"conversation with your mayor,"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3211.89,"endTime":3215.61,"body":"your city council member, your"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3215.64,"endTime":3220.59,"body":"neighborhood association"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3215.64,"endTime":3220.59,"body":"president just start calling and"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3220.59,"endTime":3224.85,"body":"keep calling. Yeah, you get to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3220.59,"endTime":3224.85,"body":"call. I mean, it doesn't have to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3224.85,"endTime":3229.23,"body":"be this way. And when cities do"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3224.85,"endTime":3229.23,"body":"make clearing homicides a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3229.23,"endTime":3233.37,"body":"priority, they start solving"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3229.23,"endTime":3233.37,"body":"more murders. And when they do"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3233.37,"endTime":3239.73,"body":"that, like magic, murders start"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3233.37,"endTime":3239.73,"body":"to decline. And so you get a"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3239.73,"endTime":3244.92,"body":"clearance bonus that you'll get"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3239.73,"endTime":3244.92,"body":"fewer murders in the future to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3244.92,"endTime":3247.44,"body":"investigate, because you've been"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3244.92,"endTime":3247.44,"body":"clearing murders"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3247.469,"endTime":3250.229,"body":"right now. That's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3247.469,"endTime":3250.229,"body":"exactly right. And it's scary to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3250.229,"endTime":3253.949,"body":"think there's these killers out"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3250.229,"endTime":3253.949,"body":"there walking free, that really"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3253.949,"endTime":3257.549,"body":"is upsetting. So I hope that"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3253.949,"endTime":3257.549,"body":"people will, you know, do what"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3257.549,"endTime":3261.209,"body":"you say and maybe share this"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3257.549,"endTime":3261.209,"body":"episode or go on your website."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3261.209,"endTime":3263.909,"body":"And people can donate because"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3261.209,"endTime":3263.909,"body":"you guys are nonprofit that will"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3263.909,"endTime":3265.679,"body":"help with your research as well."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3266.52,"endTime":3268.83,"body":"And some"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3266.52,"endTime":3268.83,"body":"expenses involved in our"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3268.83,"endTime":3272.85,"body":"lawsuit. But yeah, yeah, we're"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3268.83,"endTime":3272.85,"body":"all volunteer, nobody gets paid."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3273.3,"endTime":3279.84,"body":"But yeah, we'd appreciate a few"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3273.3,"endTime":3279.84,"body":"donations. Primarily though, we"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3279.84,"endTime":3285.51,"body":"want you to get involved in what"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3279.84,"endTime":3285.51,"body":"the realities are in your town."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3285.81,"endTime":3288.84,"body":"And if you don't like what"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3285.81,"endTime":3288.84,"body":"you're seeing to, to get"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3288.84,"endTime":3294.33,"body":"involved. Absolutely. That's"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3288.84,"endTime":3294.33,"body":"what democracy is. And democracy"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3294.33,"endTime":3298.38,"body":"ultimately is the the resource"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3294.33,"endTime":3298.38,"body":"that will turn this problem"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3298.38,"endTime":3302.1,"body":"around. We want elected"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3298.38,"endTime":3302.1,"body":"officials to know that if I"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3302.1,"endTime":3305.1,"body":"don't get a handle on my murder"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3302.1,"endTime":3305.1,"body":"problem, I'm going to have to"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3305.1,"endTime":3308.37,"body":"run against someone who's going"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3305.1,"endTime":3308.37,"body":"to campaign that he or she will."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3308.7,"endTime":3310.53,"body":"Right. Oh, that's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3308.7,"endTime":3310.53,"body":"great. I love that. That's"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3310.53,"endTime":3313.38,"body":"perfect. Well, thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3310.53,"endTime":3313.38,"body":"for doing this. Sorry, I lost"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3313.38,"endTime":3315.42,"body":"you with the camera. I can see"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3313.38,"endTime":3315.42,"body":"you. And I'm glad you can at"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3315.42,"endTime":3318.36,"body":"least hear me. But I appreciate"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3315.42,"endTime":3318.36,"body":"you taking the time to come on"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3318.36,"endTime":3321.18,"body":"the show. And I will put the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3318.36,"endTime":3321.18,"body":"website in my show notes so"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3321.18,"endTime":3324.6,"body":"people can go check that out and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3321.18,"endTime":3324.6,"body":"donate if they want. And take"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3324.6,"endTime":3327.36,"body":"your advice and get involved."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3324.6,"endTime":3327.36,"body":"Okay, thanks, Chuck."},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3327.36,"endTime":3329.19,"body":"All right. All"},{"speaker":"Thomas Hargrove","startTime":3327.36,"endTime":3329.19,"body":"right. Thanks,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3329.19,"endTime":3332.34,"body":"Thomas. Bye. Bye,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3329.19,"endTime":3332.34,"body":"bye. Well, okay, I hope you"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3332.34,"endTime":3336.03,"body":"enjoyed that interview. I know I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3332.34,"endTime":3336.03,"body":"did. And I want to thank Thomas"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3336.03,"endTime":3338.82,"body":"for taking the time to come on"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3336.03,"endTime":3338.82,"body":"my show. If you enjoyed this"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3338.82,"endTime":3342.0,"body":"episode, make sure to check out"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3338.82,"endTime":3342.0,"body":"some of my other interviews. And"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3342.0,"endTime":3344.37,"body":"make sure to subscribe to the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3342.0,"endTime":3344.37,"body":"show wherever you listen to"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3344.37,"endTime":3348.33,"body":"watch so that you don't miss any"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3344.37,"endTime":3348.33,"body":"future episodes. And please bear"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3348.33,"endTime":3351.3,"body":"with us with the technical"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3348.33,"endTime":3351.3,"body":"difficulties. We're changing up"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3351.3,"endTime":3353.97,"body":"a lot of the equipment right now"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3351.3,"endTime":3353.97,"body":"with the camera, and the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3353.97,"endTime":3356.91,"body":"lighting, and all that stuff."},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3353.97,"endTime":3356.91,"body":"But when we do get it right,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3356.91,"endTime":3359.1,"body":"it's gonna be amazing. And if"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3356.91,"endTime":3359.1,"body":"you're just listening to an"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3359.1,"endTime":3361.74,"body":"audio, you're probably not even"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3359.1,"endTime":3361.74,"body":"gonna notice a difference,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3362.07,"endTime":3364.53,"body":"because our audio has always"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3362.07,"endTime":3364.53,"body":"been pretty strong for quite a"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3364.53,"endTime":3367.47,"body":"while now. And if there's ever"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3364.53,"endTime":3367.47,"body":"audio issues, it's usually on"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3367.47,"endTime":3369.9,"body":"the guests. And unfortunately,"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3367.47,"endTime":3369.9,"body":"that's just part of doing"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3369.9,"endTime":3372.99,"body":"interviews on Zoom and these"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3369.9,"endTime":3372.99,"body":"live streams sites, but I will"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3372.99,"endTime":3376.77,"body":"continue to try and improve the"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3372.99,"endTime":3376.77,"body":"show as much as I can. And I"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3376.77,"endTime":3379.8,"body":"appreciate all your support and"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3376.77,"endTime":3379.8,"body":"patience with this. Thank you so"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3379.8,"endTime":3382.38,"body":"much. Have a great rest of your"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3379.8,"endTime":3382.38,"body":"day and remember to shoot for"},{"speaker":"Chuck Shute","startTime":3382.38,"endTime":3382.92,"body":"the moon"}]}