Episode 94: On Protecting Yourself and Your Delivery Business - with Bryant from LegalRideshare

We're excited to have Bryant Greening from LegalRideshare.com on as a guest this week.

As an attorney, Bryant found that there were so many things that were different enough involving working with clients in the gig economy such as rideshare and delivery. Six years ago he made the decision to focus exclusively on gig related cases. In that time he's established himself as one of the recognized experts on the legal aspects of rideshare and delivery.

Bryant talks with us today about protecting yourself, putting yourself in a better position to not need help from someone like him, what to do when the unexpected happens. We discuss insurance, dashcams, deactivations and even AB5.

If you are involved in an accident, you can contact LegalRideshare at their website or by calling 312-767-7950.

Bryant also talks about working with Kover AI. Kover provides income protection services for delivery and rideshare contractors. If a contractor is deactivated for something they did not do, subscribers of Kover's service can get a letter sent on their behalf by LegalRideshare. You can learn more about Kover's services here.

You can see a transcript of the interview here.

This week's sponsor:

Our sponsor this week fits in very well with today's topic. Bryant stresses the importance of getting a dashcam. We are affiliates of Rexing USA who provide a variety of dashcams. You can check out Rexing here. or you can find them on Amazon here.

Note that some products and services are sponsored or affiliate links, meaning that I may receive compensation, which helps keep the Entrecourier website and this podcast up and running.

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Transcript

0:03

Well, hello, Courier Nation. Welcome to the Deliver on your business podcast, where you are the boss. Each week we talk about how to make the most of your business as an independent contractor, as a courier delivering four gig economy apps like Grubhub, DoorDash, Postmates, Uber Eats and so many others. Well, hey, Courrier Nation, welcome back to another episode of the Deliver on Your Business podcast. It is great having you back here again this week. It's wonderful being back and looking forward to this one here. It's been too long since we had a good interview, and this one, I think, was a really good interview. We've got Bryant from who's the founder of LegalRideshare.com, and he's got all sorts of great information, especially about just protecting yourself as a delivery contractor. So there's some great stuff coming up with that. I think Brian's got some great advice about, you know, one using the legal system to protect yourself when you get into a situation when you need it, but where he really seems to. To get passionate is talking about. Doing the things that you should do to avoid getting into those situations in the first place. And so it's a great interview. I think this is maybe one of the most important interviews that I've had. OK, so before we dive into the interview, I want to do a quick word from this week's sponsor. Now I'm going to take a shot in the dark. There's something you enjoy about this whole delivery gig thing, right? There's something really important about the money you're earning, because I'm just guessing that you're not going to listen to a podcast about food delivery if that kind of stuff doesn't really mean anything to you. But I want to ask you what happens if that gets taken away? Where does it leave you if your ability to do this gets taken away from you, and especially if it's taken away for something that wasn't your fault? You get into a car accident and you get blamed even if it wasn't your fault or customer tries to get free food by saying that you didn't deliver the food. And now DoorDash, Grubhub, Uber Eats, many of the others they won't let you deliver for them anymore. Where does that leave you? I hope you got a backup plan. I emphasize that a lot, but you know, it's always easier not to have to use the backup plan. And so I talk a lot about focusing on what you can control, not on what you can't. You can't stop people from lying. You can't stop the accidents when somebody else causes it or something, but you can protect yourself by documenting what happened. And that's why I'm an affiliate partner with Rexing USA. Rexing makes dash cams, and I just ordered a Rexing V2 Pro for myself. I chose that one because of the cameras in that there's one of the cameras on that that will swivel so you can point it to wherever you're going, and it can document what happens when I get out of the car, as well as what happens when I'm in the car. I've got a GPS plug in. So what I've got now is what I will have is documentation that shows not only what I was doing, but exactly where I was when it happened. And of course, I'm a geek, so I'm looking forward to getting with that and playing with it, and it's supposed to arrive Thursday. You can bet that I'll be writing about it on the blog. And anyway, the thing is our guest today, he's he's a lawyer who works exclusively in the gig economy. He works with people, primarily people that have been injured, people that have been hurt. But he also works with some of the stuff trying to help people get the activations turned around. And you're going to hear him get real emphatic about getting a dash cam because his job is protecting you as a lawyer, and that is so much easier for him if you've got documentation that shows you were in the right. England entre courier dot com slash dash cam to check them out, you can check out the links in the show notes, so I do make a small commission if you buy from my links and that helps the website, it helps keep the podcast going. But honestly, I don't care where you get it, just protect yourself. Go ahead and check out Wreck seeing at ontrack courier dot com slash dash cam. OK, so now that we have kind of taken care of paying the bills for this episode here, let's get on to our interview. I'm really excited to have Bryant Greenling from legalrideshare.com. Well, Courier Nation, I'm excited to have a special guest with us today. We've got Bryant Greenling, who is one of the co-founders of legal, rideshare and legal rideshare, is the only law firm right now operating that is working exclusively with rideshare and gig economy related injury claims. Different work like that. And so because they're working exclusively with gig economy workers, they're just a lot of areas where he's got some great insights for us today. I think about, I think, protecting yourself as a career, as an independent contractor, protecting yourself in injury situations and even some areas outside of the injury area. Brian's been practicing law for nearly a decade and about six years ago has started focusing so much on. On that gig economy side of things, and so is kind of established himself, as you know, one of the experts in law related to some of the work that we do. So Brian, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here. Yeah. Really appreciate you coming on. And Brian, tell us a little bit how how did you decide that gig economy made sense for you? What? What got you into it? Got you interested in this side of things? Sure, it's a pretty interesting story, actually. So I graduated school almost a decade ago now, and I started in personal injury law, which meant car accident slips and falls, things like that. I'm based in Chicago, and you know, about five or six years ago, I noticed these pink mustaches starting to appear on the front of cars, and that was the beginning stages of Lyft. I started to pay a little bit more attention to it and kind of watch the industry grow around me. And as a personal injury attorney, I started to get more calls from drivers who were identifying themselves as bus drivers and eventually Uber drivers who had been involved in accidents and didn't totally understand how the insurance claims worked or how to get their vehicles repaired, or if they were entitled to lost wages after an accident. Questions along those lines and the truth the matter was I didn't know the answers because I didn't know how those insurance policies were written and how that might differ from an ordinary accident or injury claim. So as more of those cases started to come across my desk, I realized that there's a real void of information and a real void of expertise for people who find themselves in that kind of trouble. So I actually started a Twitter handle called Legal Rideshare, which was meant to be a feed for drivers to ask questions, get answers as I developed more knowledge in that world that it got so busy that we were eventually able to open up a brick and mortar with just a focus on rideshare related work. And now we're full on gig economy and servicing those drivers shoppers, you know, you name it, we're able to provide expertise and consultation if you find yourself in a tough situation. OK, OK. And it is kind of a tricky area between insurance and how insurance works. The rideshare side is one thing, and delivery is kind of a different area altogether. And and you know, I think a lot of people when they go into these. Contracts. What's what's your experience with that? Because what I'm noticing is a lot of people don't seem to understand that they're not employees now and that they that they are independent contractors, that they are running their own business, they are on their own on a lot of things. And has that been your experience as far as noticing that with drivers, as far as their understanding or what's that been like? Yeah. You know, most drivers tend to understand the concept that they're an independent contractor versus an employee, but a lot of people don't fully understand what that means. You know, they get I'm not getting a paycheck from Uber every month where they're deducting my taxes and covering me for health insurance and paid days off and things like that. But it's much bigger than that. Your website actually says it the best. You are the boss. You are running your own business on a day to day basis, and you're in charge for making sure that you keep that business in order. So that means keeping track of expenses. It means protecting yourself with the right insurance in the law. We call it see why a cover your you can fill in the blank. And the reason for that is because whatever happens in your day to day with your business is ultimately going to affect your livelihood, your ability to keep working and keep putting food on the table. So independent contractor truly means independent, and that that's important for drivers to realize as they go through their daily operations. Yeah, it really is, I think the more that people I think can understand, actually I'm starting, we had kind of a group do a trial run on a course about calling it Courier MBA, which is master your business attitude and really just trying to kind of drill down on this idea that, hey, we are running a business here and that does mean you're on your own. I think that does leave some disadvantages, but I think it leaves them some rights and some benefits to doing that as well and learning how to understand both of those things and treat it like a business. That's right. So, yeah, I mean, there's there's all sorts of ways that you can use the independent contractor label to your benefit, which would consider tracking expenses like the fact that you can deduct gas and wear and tear in your car. You can bring that that income, at least in terms of how the government's concerned way down, and that may keep more money in your pocket and those opportunities might not be available to an employee in the same way. Yeah, especially with the last tax changes there, there were a lot of employee. Deductions that kind of went away. And so we do have some, some definite benefits there. Talk to us a little bit about especially, I guess, your area of expertise and that's with, you know, injury and. And what are some of the things that somebody can do if they find themselves in a situation where they've been hurt? And, you know, where do you go from there? Well, with any. Traumatic experience or situation? A lot of it starts from preparation before that event happens. So you want to make sure that you have taken proactive steps to ensure that if the accident occurs and frankly, in our line of work, when you know when you're driving, you know, 30, 50, 60 hours a week, it's really when that accident occurs that you've adequately protected yourself. That means having the right insurance, telling your personal insurer that you do drive for a big company and you are engaged in commercial work and making sure that you got gap insurance so that if the accident happens in period one, when you're cruising around waiting for a fair that you can get that car fixed and that you can cash in on, you know, bodily injury coverage, that if it's a hit and run situation, or you can think of a variety of scenarios where you need to have taken out the right insurance ahead of time. The second thing that you can do before that accident is put in a dashcam, you want to be able to document what has happened on that day inside and outside the car. We've had cases that have totally turned on what dashcam footage has shown, where an insurance company initially denied a claim, saying that our driver was responsible. We were able to pull out that footage and show the exact opposite. No, they're insured was responsible and therefore we could put money in our client's pocket. When we talk about accidents and injuries, evidence is the key, and that means documenting what happens at the accident scene, taking photos of property damage and locations of vehicles, calling the police to make an accident report taking down witness information. So a lot of drivers at the scene of an event don't think to turn around and ask their passenger for their name and phone number. Well, that's invaluable, because that that information is not easy to come by from the rideshare companies, but you have access to it right there. And that's a witness to your event and can make or break your case down the road. So when we talk about what to do in an accident, it's gather evidence and that starts even before the accident occurs and at the accident scene. OK. OK. Let's talk a little bit about what you mentioned about insurance. Insurance is and it's there's there's a lot of difference between how insurance works with ride share and how it works with delivery companies, because the insurance that's provided by the ride shares a lot different, isn't it? So the rideshare companies offer pretty good insurance. Most of the time. But what a lot of drivers don't appreciate is that they're the rideshare companies. Insurance only covers you during part of your trips. So for instance, we were talking about Uber and Lyft. When you're in that period, one where you're cruising around waiting for a fare, you actually have very minimal coverage. A lot of times they don't provide liability. I'm sorry. They don't provide collision coverage, which means that your car is not really protected during that period. One. If somebody hits you and flees the scene. Uber and Lyft are going to deny that claim. When you go to them and say, I need my vehicle repaired, so you need to have proactively taken out insurance through your own carrier that provides coverage during that period, one that provides gap coverage in case Uber and Lyft deny the claim. Also, during period one, your level of liability insurance is limited, whereas when you're on the way to pick up a fare, when you have a fare in the car, you've got a million dollars. In most states of coverage. In period one, it's often five state minimum. So if you cause an accident and really hurt somebody, you know, God forbid big orthopedic injuries or even worse fatality, you want to make sure that you've taken out sufficient coverage to protect you and your family because the rideshare insurance may not. A lot of drivers get behind the wheel and they think, Well, I've got the the app on. I'm good. That's not really the case. Right. It's actually the time that you've got the app on and you don't have anything going on that you're really the most vulnerable. I think that's right. Period, one is where almost all the bad things happen. So when you don't have a fare that you're connected to, or a fare in your car, you could find yourself in a really bad situation if you haven't taken out the right private policy before you got in the car. Yeah. Yeah, and really, I think and on Honami side of things where most of my most, most of my audience is really more into delivery. We don't even have I mean, I think it gets even a little more complicated. Maybe it's less complicated. Just you're just not insured because. Right, that's true. You know, you're you don't have that insurance policy from DoorDash or Grubhub or Postmates. UberEats is maybe the one exception, because some of that rideshare policy seems to transfer over. What have you experienced, I guess, as you've talked with delivery drivers and the difference that has to do with that. But you're right that as a delivery worker, there is a lot bigger gaps. There's there are many more bigger gaps, and that means there's more time in which you are less covered. We really encourage drivers to speak with their private insurance, their personal insurer, and make sure that they have every gap covered. And what that means is go into your State Farm or to your Allstate or your progressive or wherever. We don't recommend a single company. Find the one that fits best for you and tell them I am engaged in work for these particular companies. I drive for UberEats. I drive for Postmates and drive for Grubhub. Give me the policy that fills all of those gaps so that when an event does happen, when you're driving, you know that you're covered. Even if you know Postmates covers it partially as the primary insurance policy. And then you have to go to your personal insurance, have secondary coverage or vice versa. There's a million different scenarios that can arise, and as long as you fill the gaps, then you're safe specific to your question. The delivery companies are eager to look for ways to avoid liability and minimize their liability. So sometimes, you know the accident in the coverage can can really shift on one minute. Did the accident occur at nine, fifty nine or 10 o'clock? Because whether you, whether you're on your way to pick up the food or have the food in your car, it can be a difference of one minute. And there's different insurance that applies depending on which stage you're in. Yes. Yes. And and I think on top of that, what a lot of people I hear, a lot of people that kind of say, Well, yeah, but these companies do have insurance, but usually one It's not really even auto insurance, it's more of a liability umbrella for them. And so it doesn't cover us. And it does provide some liability for damage that you caused, but. Have you found that to be kind of a challenge, I guess, to get them to follow through on that because of that Type that change that difference in type of insurance? Or or am I mistaken in the way I put that? No, there isn't. If a driver causes an accident, that's where they find themselves between a rock and a hard place. So if you get hit by another car, the first thing that we're going to do is we're going to go after that other drivers insurance to try to cover your damage. And, you know, eight times out of 10, there's going to be insurance there that allows you to recover. And we don't really have to worry about what DoorDash or Postmates or the or the company says. But in the situation where you get hit by an uninsured driver or you caused the accident, we found that all of these rideshare companies or all these delivery companies, I should say, are taking hard stances and looking for ways in which their coverage doesn't apply. And many times they're saying no. The personal insurance for the driver is primary, meaning we're going to go to your insurance first. And if if you have the necessary coverage, then it's going to be a much easier claim. And if you don't, then we're going to find ourselves fighting and sometimes it gets covered and sometimes it doesn't. So time is money in this world, and if we can have a clean path to recovery, get you back on the road sooner than later. That's a better outcome as opposed to you. Call in my office and I saying, we're going to need months to convince Postmates to pick this up because they're challenging the time in which you were on the clock or the the period in which you were in. And you know, I do believe that we have we do have strong outcome, but I want to get this done fast for you. I don't want you sitting on the sideline not able to work while this is all being sorted out because you didn't take out the right insurance to begin with, right? Yeah. Have they ever used that that, you know, because you do have to you really? I think most people don't realize, especially on the delivery side, that most delivery policies specifically say, I'm sorry, most most personal policy specifically say you were not covered while you're on a delivery. And so. Or, you know, commercial purposes Livery is a term I think is used quite a bit. Does that fact that you've got that kind of policy sometimes give them an out as far as what you didn't have the right kind of insurance? And so that gives them an excuse to say, well, you were supposed to have the right kind, you didn't have it. So we're not responsible. Well, what the companies requires that you have a valid insurance policy covering your car and covering your operation of the car, they don't require that you have rideshare or career specific insurance. So what we found is that there's times in which all the insurance companies play kind of hot potato with the claim and they say It's not us, it's them, it's not us, them. And they keep passing the buck while the driver sitting there trying to just get their car fixed. So the best thing that you can do is take out the right insurance to begin with, because then we know your personal insurance provides coverage in the moment that that the courier company says we're not going to pick up the claim. We can go right to your insurance and say, Look, we got a denial. Let's have this. Let's take this care up and then you guys can work it out on the back end insurance companies, then they can be the ones to spend the time fighting. Right? That's exactly. They'll take it to arbitration. It'll be State Farm versus Allstate or whatever. And instead of driver versus insurance company, you want to get out of that claim as quickly as you can, because that means your car's fixed in. You're back on the road. Right? Absolutely. I hear this sometimes from couriers that will say, Well, just don't tell anybody that you were doing deliveries and then they should cover you. Have you heard that happen? Are you have you heard that said much? And how would you respond to that as far as like your personal insurance if they don't know that you're on delivery? Can they find out? We hear that all the time. And my the truth of the matter is if the insurance company doesn't find out, then it's probably going to be a seamless process. I mean, that's just the bottom line. But the right answer, the legal answer is you should be upfront with your insurance company because if they find out you're going to be a whole lot of trouble, yeah, if they find out, they might be coming back to you seeking the money that they paid to fix your car, they might be canceling your policy and that would be a red flag for future insurance down the road. Sure, they might file a lawsuit against the company that should have paid the damage. The one that covers a courier company. And then all of a sudden you're caught up in litigation. So it's one of those situations. Is where the easy path, you know, telling the lie or staying mum be the quickest path to resolving the case for you, but it might open up a whole can of worms that I wouldn't want to partake in if I were the delivery driver. I would be looking for the right outcome to resolve the case so that it's resolved now, and I don't have to worry about it a year from now. Yeah. So bottom line is just make sure you get the right insurance in the first place. Yeah, it's the truth will set you free, and you just you want to have protected yourself, protected your business, your business. Protect it from the beginning. Have you noticed, I guess, any particular companies that tend to be better at insuring especially delivery based couriers? In terms of insurance companies, you can find solid coverage with any reputable company. So, you know, we find a lot of drivers on the delivery and the rideshare front that look for cheap insurance. And, you know, essentially you can buy it out of the guy's trunk in a parking lot. That's not going to be adequate, adequate for what you're doing. But if you go to the big guys, the the all states, the state farms, the progressives, they're all going to sell insurance that covers commercial work. The key is finding the policy that works best for you. What we found is that different drivers get different quotes from the same company, so you could go to one company and get a rate that's that's much higher than your neighbor. And that just depends on your driving history, your work history, your demographics in terms of your age. You know, there's all sorts of factors. So I would say, shop around, go to the big companies, find a policy that fully covers you and then pay the least amount that you can because you've done your homework and you've done your shopping. Sure. Sure. That's good advice. Let me ask you this. Have you run into any kind of differences between, I guess, what you would call the ride share coverage and and finding that those do not cover delivery because the ride share coverage is kind of depending on that is contingent on the gig company having insurance, it's more like what Uber and Lyft have. You know, most of the time, commercial work is covered by the policy. So the fact that you're you're going into the insurance company and you're saying I am taking out money or I'm taking out a policy to earn money with my vehicle is helpful and I have not come into a situation where they posted that finally and said, we are not going to cover this because it was, say, DoorDash instead of Uber. OK. OK. All right. I just wondered on that one. I've always kind of wondered because sometimes and actually, I went through a process, gosh, about six months ago looking for, you know, changing insurance. And and I notice a couple of places that say, OK, we've got rights here. But when I would drill down and say, Does that cover delivery for this company or that company? Oh, no, I guess it doesn't. And so that's what I wondered if you ran into it on your end, whether that became an issue. Yeah, it's certainly worth it to ask the question when you're doing that initial shopping before, because I do think that doing right. Different companies are going to give different policies and write them in specific ways. So you don't want to find yourself thinking you had the right insurance when you didn't. So as I said a few minutes ago, it's all about being honest from the get go. Tell them exactly what you're planning on doing with your car. So many drivers think that it's important to hide the ball and say, You know, I don't want to spend too much a month on my insurance, so I'm going to withhold certain information that doesn't benefit you when at the end of the day, your car is your livelihood, you need to protect your asset because the moment that that car goes off the road, that means the bills don't get paid. So, you know, if you're asking me, do I want to save 10 dollars a month and live in fear every day or put another ten dollars a month, even 15 20 dollars a month towards my business? I got to spend the extra money because I got to know that I have the ability to make money for my family. I think that's a good point, really good point. So a couple of things that I pick up from you so far. You know, one is. Make sure you're protected to begin with, another is, you know, find ways to document as much as you can. Dashcam sounds like you would very highly recommend that to protect yourself. Absolutely, it's the dash cam is the most important thing that you can purchase with the exception of the right insurance. So it's right insurance and then dash cam a one on one day and those things are not that expensive. I mean, you know, a good ones, what maybe about 100 to $150. And but my gosh, what a difference that is between paying thousands of dollars out of your pocket. It's a one time expense, and we talked before about writing things off, that is an expense of your business. So by a dash cam, set it up. You never think about it again. And you know, if that means that you do five more deliveries in a week to pay for it, it's worth it. Absolutely. You know, you set that money aside and have that insurance hanging on your rearview mirror. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's that's great advice there. What are the kinds of things would you recommend that people could do just to kind of make sure that they're protected so that they're more likely to be able to have a positive outcome, if anything bad happens? Well, when we at our practice, we deal specifically with injury claims and the biggest mistake that we see is we, you know, we call it the hero complex. And it's somebody gets in an accident and they think to themselves, I'm fine, you know, I don't need medical attention. I'm just going to start, go go going again. And then they find themselves a week later where those pains haven't gone away and they're actually getting worse, and they haven't taken the necessary steps to ensure that they have the strongest insurance claim that they can. If you're in an accident, we recommend go get a checkup. You don't have to go to the E.R. and get a five thousand dollar bill, go to a primary care doctor or go to an urgent care, but go somewhere who's going to check you out and make sure that everything is first of all, in order where you're not in serious harm's way, but also that they're going to have that medical note in close proximity to the accident that says this driver was involved in an accident last night. He's complaining of neck and back pain. I've recommended that he returned to us in a week. If the pains haven't resolved, what you've done right there is you've created a causal connection between the accident and the injury. And if the pain goes away and you don't have any need for future treatment, then you've spent whatever the cost of that, one visit was a hundred dollars to go to the urgent care. And that's worth it for two reasons. One, you make sure that you're healthy. The accident didn't cause some issue that you're unaware of and to you now have bought yourself time to see how the injury progresses and if it gets worse, the insurance company can't later come back and say, if you were really hurt, you would have gone to the doctor sooner. So don't be a hero. Make documentation of the event and the pains that have resulted there from. OK. OK. We would all but just one one more point on the accident. It's also, as I talked about before gathering evidence many drivers don't want to call the police, they don't want the event to disrupt their night. They want to continue driving, continue earning money. The police report is one of the most important pieces of evidence that you can have because it documents who was there, the insurance that they had, the positions of the vehicles, oftentimes who was at fault. And when we have that documentation, all of a sudden we were starting out on a much better path to your recovery. If I can show the insurance company that report that was taken the day of the occurrence by somebody reputable, like a police officer to, you know, to state what happened, we're going to be able to hit the ground running on your claim rather than sorting out facts and them saying, Well, I need to talk to my driver to get this all sorted out. We want to move this thing fast for you so you can get going. And that the fact that you took the time to make that report at the scene will help us do that. Yeah. And it's just like every detail that you could possibly think of getting together is, is, I think, going to help you there. That's right. At what point should somebody contact a lawyer then? We recommend that you contact a lawyer after any accident just to understand what your options are. I will tell you that if it's a minor event where it's property damage and you're you might just need a nudge in the right direction. I will give you that information for free. You don't have to pay me any sort of retainer or anything like that. That's a conversation I'm willing to have, and I want you to handle that case on yourself. The reason being you can you just need to be told, you know, where to go and what to do, and then you can handle it and get back on the road and not have to pay a lawyer. If you say it's a property, damage claims you bring on a lawyer and I take a percentage of what we recover. You're still in a situation where you don't have enough money to fix your car. So what good have we really done? Call us, we'll give you the information now if there's a more serious event where you're seriously injured. You're going to need medical treatment that goes beyond that initial appointment. It's vital that you get in touch with a lawyer because the lawyer's going to be able to communicate with the insurance company in a way that somebody who doesn't see this every day just won't have the knowledge to do so. For example, pretty much everybody knows that if you're in an accident, the at fault driver insurance is responsible for medical bills. That's one thing that I think it's fairly common knowledge, but what people don't understand is how to maximize the non-economic factors of the case. So the pain and suffering, the temporary disability, loss of enjoyment of life, things that don't have receipts attached to them. The insurance companies are typically not going to offer money to a non-lawyer for those types of damages. As soon as the lawyer gets involved and starts talking the talk, the insurance company is going to be forced to add dollars to whatever offer that they're making to you. So when there's an injury, you really need to bring on a lawyer to maximize the claim. OK? And what's the best way to find a lawyer? You know, and actually, there's probably two parts to that question. You know, one is where are you able to help out? Are there, you know, is that anything that's kind of related to jurisdiction or anything like that? Is it at what point is it better to find somebody locally? And at what point is it? You know, what's the best way to find somebody? Is that the guy that that has the best ads on that? I used to say on the phone book, but those days are kind of bad, aren't they? Yes, they are. Yes, on the billboards. That's a good question. Now it's a billboard, right? No. So what I recommend is you can contact us legal rideshare dot com. And in most situations, regardless of where you are in the country, we can assist you. And if we find that your case is specific in a way that requires somebody local, we have connections in all 50 states that we can send you to the right lawyer who handles these types of cases isn't going to be stumbling through the process. It will allow you to hit the ground running. So legal rideshare is a great place for you to seek representation and also get a referral if it comes to that. Okay. All right. It's good to know. OK, any other advice that you would offer on that side of things that maybe I have missed or didn't ask the right questions or anything? No, you know, I think that you've you've really done a nice job of hitting on all the different caveats of the work and how independent contractor versus employee and ride share insurance versus non rideshare insurance. Those are the the big ones, and that's what people who find themselves in this profession really need to be aware of and educate themselves on and seek advice on when it comes to it. OK. Thank you. And one of the thing I want to kind of touch on a little bit. You guys have recently been involved with a partnership with Kover.ai I use to call them cover and then I found out I was pronouncing that wrong. But a Kover and tell me a little bit about that because that's that's a little bit different area, but something that you've partnered with them lately to help drivers who are being deactivated. Yet Kover is a really great company, and it's something that every gig workers should be aware of. They provide benefits and coverage to drivers who find themselves unable to work, whether it's accident deactivation sick, you name it, they'll provide benefits and lost wages for a period of time to help you get back on your feet. One of the things one of the things that we realized together when we started working with Cover is that. Drivers who are deactivated often have no recourse. We've told drivers for years that there's there's no due process and rideshare, there's no due process and gig work. What we mean by that is if you get deactivated, you're not entitled to a hearing, you're not entitled to really a wrongful termination lawsuit. Those the laws don't cover this fraction of of worker. And there's this whole that many drivers have found themselves in. So Kover came to us and said, What can we do about this? And we decided that one of the best things that we can do is force the companies to look back at each driver's case individually and figure out why was this driver deactivated? What event or events led to that and demand answers. Because if they can't give them to us, then why is the person unable to work? So we started writing letters for each driver to the particular company that they got deactivated from. And we've had great success. The companies are are actually being relatively fair in terms of going through and looking at each case individually. We've had many drivers get their accounts reactivated, get them back on the road and it allows them to start earning again. So we've been very, very happy with the results of our campaign. And I think that's one of the things that it's what we were talking about earlier about being an independent contractor that. You know, you're you're on your own on a lot of things. And I think one of the things a lot of people don't realize is, you know, you got to understand that this is not an employment situation, you do not have the protections that go with it. And I make the comment a lot that you know, that these companies are actually your customers and not your bosses. Well, there are some areas where that's a great thing about the relationship because you have a lot of freedoms with that. But when it comes to the fact that, you know, say, if you're operating a business or restaurant a store, you can't force your customers to keep coming back. And so there's you know that that's the part that kind of leaves people hanging. I think. That's very true. And, you know, when we started years ago, we got deactivation call after deactivation call, people just didn't know what to do and we would tell people they can dismiss you because they don't like the color of your shirt. And there's truly nothing wrong with that under the law, because you are an independent contractor, you're not an employee. They owe you no explanation. But when you started this campaign with kover, we realized that the rideshare companies. You know, there's many levels, there's many people who touch each one of these claims, and sometimes drivers get deactivated because the wrong person touches the file. And when we start writing these letters, it requires the higher ups to reevaluate what happened and when they realize that they did deactivate you because of the color of your shirt, not because you were some safety at risk. They're turning the light back on. And you know, that's what we can ask for. You know, at the end of the day, we don't want unsafe drivers on the road. None of us do. They give gig workers a bad name. They give the whole community a bad name. We want safe drivers doing safe, good work. But the good drivers shouldn't be deactivated. The ones that do the job right, the ones with high reviews, the ones who get there on time and follow the rules. There is no reason why one customer's complaint or one negative interaction that that really didn't mean anything should cost that person their job. And by the companies coming back and re-evaluating each case individually, we're finding that those drivers are getting put back on the platforms. I think some of what happens with this is that I think and maybe you see it, see it something different. But I'm kind of getting this idea that a lot of it happens because. These companies are treating this the same way as they're treating support is the same way as they're treating just getting stuff out there. Getting stuff done is they're trying to do it with the, you know, as little human interaction as possible or something with as little labor cost as possible. And so they rely, I think, a lot on an algorithm that says, OK, something looks out of place here or something like that, and then they'll just let it happen that way rather than have somebody actually dig into it and find out what's going on. I think that's right, because it's easy, it's quick, and at the end of the day, they're not going to get sued over it. Know they're not going to find themselves in an employment wrongful termination lawsuit because the law doesn't support it. Know that case would get thrown out. Now there are mechanisms through the terms of service through arbitration. You know, you can do it. You can challenge those, those cases, but they're not going to find themselves with some massive lawsuit or jury verdict against them. And they feel safer than just turning the red light on some driver's accounts, because that's the easiest thing to do. Okay. What happens when let's say somebody gets one of one of the latest terms that they love to use lately is fraud, and it looks like they kind of lump everything from acceptance rates to everything else into fraudulent activity. And they just say, well, it looks like fraudulent activity. And so something like that happens well. Now they they've said that they terminated you for fraud, but they don't tell you what the fraud was, and there's no recourse that anybody has for something like that. Yet some of these correspondences that we're having with the companies are actually getting some, we're shining a light on what they mean by fraud, and you're right, it can mean a variety of things when you get that notice that your account has been deactivated. But we get letters from attorneys for the delivery companies that give more specifics. And sometimes that's what a driver needs to see. You know, the driver thinks that there's been some sort of. You know, wrongdoing on behalf of the company, because they don't understand what the basis is for the deactivation and then when we get the letter back from the company and they say, well, actually they were unable to pick up these 10. You know, orders they or they deliver to the wrong addresses or whatever the situation may be. It provides clarity. It forces both the company and the driver, I think, to come to terms with this specific event, sometimes in the same regard. The company will have cited fraud. They'll go back to their records and they'll realize, well, this was one event really not that big of a deal. We'll turn it up or we'll turn it back on. If it's a pattern, then the driver sees, OK, this is what they meant. And you know, if I if I was unable to complete the task on a recurrent basis of this, they have an answer as to the company's basis. Yeah. And I think that's one thing that would be. Maybe a little more helpful on the part of the companies is if they were more forthcoming to begin with. With what? What incident was it? And I think that's that's the thing is I read in, you know, a lot of forums and different things like that as people can't get an answer as to where did it happen, what exactly was it? And you know, it would help, I think, if they knew, I kind of wonder if part of the reason that they're not as forthcoming and this is just the conspiracy theory tin hat wearing guy in me here is that if they start giving a lot of specifics that they're kind of putting themselves at risk of being more controlling and part of that whole misclassification thing. Yeah, I think that that's certainly part of it. I also think that it's quicker to just write the word fraud. And yet so often there's a lack of a human element humanity to how the companies treat their workers that I think they don't in a lot of regards care whether they're providing closure to a driver, but rather they're just kicking them out the door. And that's why so many drivers get frustrated. And that's why the letters that we're writing with cover are helpful. One, they might get the driver's account back on in two, they might just get the explanation that they need. Yeah. And I'm going to have kover on hoping maybe next week. And we've been talking with somebody from there about having them on as well to talk about their service and my goodness for what they charge to have that kind of protection and some of the other things that they do. I would agree with you completely. I subscribed with them just just a couple of weeks ago and just took the work that they do. Yeah, and I don't think they charge enough, but. Well, don't tell them that. No, I understand. That brings me to kind of one last question. I want to ask your thoughts on this whole misclassification thing, especially when it comes to AB5 and California Prop 22 coming up. Where do you think as far as that goes? Or should I ask that question? You know, I'm glad that you did, it's one of those situations where different people think different ways within the gig world. I know drivers who are adamantly for AB5 and I know drivers who are adamantly against it. I think a lot of it depends on where you find yourself and what you use. This work for a driver who works full time delivery or rideshare. It really needs more protection than somebody who does it five to 10 hours a week. I often think of two different types of people that say the soccer mom who goes out and does deliveries two hours every other day so that she can pay for new shoes for her son or for the fees for the participation. That person doesn't need the same protection as the one who has to rely on the walk to put food on the table. I am of the opinion that more protection is better because I want to protect the people who are most vulnerable, and that means the driver who uses these services to, you know, for their livelihood. And if I've seen too many situations when a driver has been involved in what seems to be a minor event, a fender bender, but. Can't get the car fixed for because they didn't have the proper insurance or needs to take a few weeks off because their back is really to hurt, to drive for two three weeks. We're not saying some catastrophic injury, but then they find themselves in a position where they can't make ends meet. They find themselves getting deeper and deeper into a hole, and this seemingly innocuous event has changed their lives. So certainly there are different perspectives, and I respect everybody's thought on it. But I want to make sure that the person who needs protection is protected and that they have what they need to keep their heads above water. That's a good thought. I want to ask a question that's kind of related to this, and I'll get back to that in a second. Why? But you talked earlier how the gig companies hopefully get getting somewhere with this question here. But you talked earlier about how these companies don't require you to have commercial insurance or don't require that, you know, they just need you to be insured. Why do you think they don't require that when? By not requiring that or not telling people that kind of leaves people open and vulnerable? Would they want the largest possible driver base that they can get, and that's that means if you can go buy cheap insurance and get on their platform, that's to their benefit. And if you're not protected when the inevitable happens, that's not really their problem. Yeah, I think that that's that's my theory too. I because. And the reason that I got to that question, it gets back to this whole AB5 thing. I mean, personally, if I were to have to become an employee, I'm done with delivery. That's just my approach. And and I do, and I don't know if I'm a rarity, maybe being full time and feeling that way, but maybe it's because I do understand what it means to be an independent contractor and I approach it that way. And that's what I try and really say. You know, tell people with it with this website and this podcast is really encourage people to look at it like you're running a business and that's the best way to avoid being taken advantage of. So in that regard, I am, I guess, more in favor of, yeah, I'm glad I'm not in California because if I was, I'd be more in favor of Prop 22 passing, just because that would keep me from having to be classified as an employee. The flip side of that is it gets back to this whole issue of. The problem behind what we just talked about with the insurance that they don't tell you that you need that because if they told you that they wouldn't probably get enough people to do it, that they don't tell people, they don't make it as clear as they should make it, that you're independent contractors, that you're completely on your own because if people understood that they wouldn't get enough people. And ultimately, what that tells me is these companies are really treating it more like they want to hire and get the benefits as though their employees, but then get the benefit of not having to pay them as employees. And there to couple that, take it both ways. Yeah, yeah. And so no, it's it's problematic. And at the end of the day, there needs to be a change, and I I don't think that Prop 22 is enough. No, but I do think that that's probably where we're headed is. Nationwide, we'll see more laws like Prop 22 that provide, say, occupational hazard insurance instead of workers' compensation, which look, I don't really care how the rideshare companies pay injured people, but if you're injured on the job, you need to have a safety net. And however we classify them and whatever caveats there are that that may give the rideshare companies the ability to continue to earn in a productive way and keep rideshare delivery jobs viable. But in the same regard, protect a worker. I'm open to the conversation, but I'd like to see it go further than what Prop 22 is offering. Yeah, I agree. And in fact, I'm concerned because I think Prop 22 actually allows them to have a little more control over contractors. And part of that control becomes because now if you're going to start offering a minimum pay, it kind of gives them the right to have some control in some areas. And so I think it takes him a step further away from where they were as contractors. They don't let everybody know that part of the Prop 22, but it'll be very interesting to see how it plays out. It will. I wish that there were some way to. Police, the control as opposed to just changing and saying you can't use contractors at all. And nobody seems to want to try and find that middle ground or something. And. I think that's rideshare and gig work in general is so new, relatively speaking, that I think the lawmakers are a bit baffled on how to respond in a way that's good for the economics of the work and the worker who's ultimately bringing in the Bucks for the company. So I think that this is going to be continued. This will continue to be tweaked and eventually we'll find a middle ground that works. But until we do, I'd like to see the worker prioritize instead of the company. I understand that. I understand that completely. Well, Bryant, I want to thank you so much for coming on and probably kept you longer than I planned to or something like that. And I apologize for taking so much of your time, but I thank you so much for helping out any any last thoughts or anything that you want to share or anything that I can pass on to everybody. No, just it was a real pleasure to chat with you, and I hope we have provided some beneficial content to your listeners. If anybody has any questions, they can always reach us through our website at legal ride share dot com. There's a submission form right on there. They'll come right to my inbox, so you'll get in touch with me. OK, perfect. And I'll put links in the show notes here and we've got it'll be at entrecourier.com/94 because we're on episode 94 today. And with that, it'll have like the transcript and then I'll have links and everything there as well so that people can know where to find you and thank you again for coming on and really appreciate it. It was great chatting, it was great. Thanks. Have a great one. Well, Courier Nation, what did you think? You know, as I'm doing the editing and getting this, I'll put it into the podcast format, you know, the chance to go back and listen to this again. And you know, this is one of the few times that sometimes you go back and you listen to it all over again. It's like, Oh, this is even better the second time around, because this Brian just provided so much important information and something that I touched on right before we started playing the interview. I said, You know, one of the most important things that you can get into as a business owner and I think as an individual is you control the things that you can control and not stress so much about the things you can't control now. Brian Bryant works in an area where he kind of deals with the stuff that happens that you probably couldn't control. You know, I mean, things happen sometimes that we can't predict or control or even stop, but we can control the position we put ourselves in. You know, we can do the things that we need to do to best prevent those things from happening. And then there are things that we can do just to put ourselves into a better position to be able to deal with those things we can't prevent from happening. So go back and listen to Brian all over again. You can. You can mute at the part when I'm talking, but whatever, because Brian's got just an awful lot of value and what he's provided, and I'm so glad that he has joined us this week. And folks, this whole thing about taking control, you know, that's that's what I always wrap up with here at the end of the episode. And I just I can't emphasize this enough. You're a business owner, and I got to tell you one of the things that I love the most about being an independent contractor as opposed to being an employee is that ability to just take control. And when you take that mindset, when you decide that you're the one in control of things and. You're not dependent on whatever any of these companies do. That's when you get a really thrive and that's when you get to really do well. So I just encourage you as as we wrap this up today is take control and be the boss.