Will PRO Act end gig economy delivery? With Steve Johnson of Rideshare Rodeo Podcast

The government has been busy lately trying to get things pushed through. We've seen in the past few days the Infrastructure bill and Budget Reconciliation stuff go through the Senate.

One of the things that's been a priority for Democrats has been the PRO Act. Protecting the Right to Organize. One of the things the act does is implement the ABC test that was the heart of California's AB5, and the ABC test would then determine classification of employee verses independent contractor for purposes of labor laws.  If it's passed and stands up to court challenges, PRO Act could force Doordash, Uber, Grubhub, Lyft and other gig companies to hire employees rather than employees.

Steve Johnson of UberLyftDrivers.com joins us to talk about employment, being an independent contractor, the repercussions of being an employee, and whether Pro Act has a chance of passing. Steve has had several guests on his Rideshare Rodeo podcast and shares insights he's gained from his many conversations on the topic.

Additional reading on PRO Act

AB5 and Prop 22: A listing of articles about California's AB5 which implemented the ABC Test, and about Prop 22, the ballot initiative that exempted gig platforms from AB5.

What is PRO Act?

Driver App London is a blog by Mourad, a frequent guest on Steve's podcast. Later in the episode Steve talks about how some places in Europe are a step ahead of where they are in the US including an app worker designation.

What we talk about in today's episode:

The following was the general outline we attempted to follow. Things may have gone a little out of order here and there.

Introductions:
Steve talks about his gig economy background, how his website and podcast got started, and then talks about the different guests he's had on his podcast to talk about PRO Act (guests both in favor of and against the legislation).

Employment verses Independent Contractors
Why is this even important? What is there to lose if we are employees?

What is PRO Act and how does that impact things?
What is the ABC test from California's AB5 and that is now part of PRO Act? How does that compare to the current IRS test

Doordash, Uber, Lyft, Grubhub and others as bad actors
Part of the problem does lie in the way gig companies treat their contractors. Is there exploitation of the independent contractor model by these companies? How do their actions contribute to how some want to force a change?

Can PRO Act be passed into law?
PRO Act is stalled right now. Does that mean that it's safe? What kind of things can lead to it passing?

Is there a better alternative?
Is forcing gig companies to hire employees the only answer? Is there a better way to handle the bad acting of gig companies?  

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Transcript

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I told you that I'd be back this week. And you know what? I brought a friend this time. Courier Nation, welcome back to season two, episode three of the Deliver on Your Business podcast. Now, let me tell you what this is not. This is not the Deliver on Your Employment podcast, my friends, is independent contract. We're running businesses. That's what we are all about. We are here to talk about doing life and delivery, and more than that, doing life as independent contractors. It's all about equipping you and encouraging you to claim your role as independent contractors, because the thing is, you've got what it takes to run your business, be awesome at your business, to be the boss as you deliver on your business. Okay, my friends, I'm going to keep this introduction short today because because we've got actually what turned out to be a longer episode than what I planned on. I've got a Steve Johnson with right here. Rodeo podcast. Joining us today. We're talking about employees versus independent contractor, about Pro Act legislation, which is national legislation that, if it ever got passed, could really impact our ability to continue working with independent contractors. And let me just say we got talking a bit, and that shouldn't surprise me. Now, Steve's in Denver like I and we've gone back and forth quite a bit. I've been on his podcast, but we've never actually met up and gotten together, even though we're in the same town. So yesterday we got together for some coffee, talk about what we're going to do with this, and just kind of talk shop a bit. And we both thought maybe it'd be about an hour. It wasn't even close to an hour then. So it shouldn't surprise me that we got going again today. But, you know, my friends, this is an important topic today. Some of this stuff, I think it just really gets to the heart of what we're doing and why we do all this. So I'm going to just shut up with this introduction and let's get started with today's conversation. Well, hey, folks, I want to welcome Steve Johnson, and I want to thank Steve for joining us. Now, Steve operates the Uber Lyft Drivers website, and he has the Rideshare Rodeo podcast. And Steve has also been involved with Para for quite a while, way back from the beginning. And that's actually how Steve and I think were first introduced to each other. It was the guys that Para kind of connected us. And so glad to have him on as a guest on the podcast here today. And Steve kind of tell us a little bit more about maybe just let us know a little bit about your in the gig economy you started out in Ride share, tell us a little bit how you got into that and your role with Para and maybe kind of introduce yourself that way. Thanks for having me Ron. So I got into ride sharing 2014 here in Denver. By the way, Ron and I actually live in the same city. So if you listen to my podcast or Rons or whatever and you didn't put together with both live in Denver. So I got into in 2014 with Lyft, started doing it pretty heavily. I was making great money. That's when it was still the percenage split. My original percentage split with Lift was 90-10, 90 to me, a year, about maybe ten months, twelve months later, I signed up for Uber, too, even though it was Jamming with Lyft. And I got an 85-15 split again on that platform killing it. So both platforms were just killing it. For me, it could be a Tuesday night. I mean, no matter when you worked, you made a ton of money. They were still trying to populate drivers into this market overpopulate, I should say. Sure, they were under populated and they were trying to overpopulate because, as we all know, ride share would fail immediately if the supply couldn't meet the demand, which I won't get into. But is something that's going on right now, temporarily. And so I did ride share. I've done close to 30,000 rides between the two platforms and in four and a half years ago. So March of 2017, I think of 2017. I feel like it's 2016, though, and it was our four year anniversary this March. Maybe. Regardless, I started UberLyftdrivers.Com and we now have, like, Both reagitated ones and one that we've done ourselves. And I started it because of everything that was going on with Travis. Oddly, I didn't know where it would be going. I didn't really have a plan for it, but Travis was just causing more chaos than he had been even the whole year. That whole last year, he was running around the world, and we were hearing about him like he was Hugh. Hefner kind of like this guy is just getting kicked out of countries and prostitutes and sushi bars and who knows? And so he was kind of just a trip to follow. You know, I kind of felt like this can't keep going on like this. It was getting real bad. And I remember in February and I thought about it. And then in March, I did the first piece, which was the very first article posted, is the video of him and the confrontation with the driver. Have you seen that before? From back in the day, the driver tells him how he bought the car and how we now can't make the money and he's drunk and he's swearing at him and all that. So that was the first post. If you go back, you'll see it. I've had to replace the video in that post, by the way, like seven times because they keep ripping it down on YouTube. But after that, I wrote the next day was the Susan Faller incident. So right away, I did a piece on that. And I was just kind of doing news. And then when they actually kicked him out right after his mom died, I mean, everything was going crazy for this guy. And then they kicked him out. Derek came in, and I just kept doing it because everything was so interesting. Phantom was still going on. People are still using that Phantom problem, which you can find on our website. If you're interested in it, I won't get into it. But you can go to UberLyftdrivers.com, search Phantom, and you'll see that PHA, whatever Phantom, but it's PH. But you'll see what it was. It was a trick to evade police that they were using and some other stuff. So It kept getting more and more interesting. And so anyway, I did that for a long time, kept driving. And when the pandemic it I had thought about doing a podcast. But then I did the podcast to help people who started as I had an idea to do it before the pandemic. But what it ended up being was it took the pandemic to start it. And I did this helping with Pua for about the first six seven episodes. And oddly enough, I got contacted by a CBS News reporter through a reporter I know at The Denver Post. And she was doing a piece on what I was doing for free because I had done a lot of the States. And I kept diving into more about how gig workers are going to get this right as the Care Act passed. And when the article posted, it was me. It was two people quoted it at me and David Pickerell. Okay. So immediately I look at this other guy, and his quote was like, stuff I had said to her, too. And I'm like, wow, we're super aligned here. And so I was like, I'm going to reach out to him. And I can't remember if it was him or me first. It might have actually even been him. That like, right. As I was thinking, I'm going to reach out to him. The next day, he contacted me through Twitter. And because he got the handle from the article, and he contacted me. And he's like, we're both doing the same thing. And I'm doing this thing with the technology air table. And I said, okay, well, then let's do it together. And that was also the forming of David and I, which was April 2020. And that's when he was autonomy.Jobs. And we were together helping gig workers figure out how to navigate Pua. In the beginning, when everybody needed it. Yeah. We stopped when it became like, maybe people were abusing it or whatnot. Obviously, we helped jump started because you remember, in the beginning, everybody was at home. We were all stuck at home. They made it very hard to get the Pua. And a lot of people really, really needed it. So it wasn't like we were trying to abuse the system. We were trying to just help the drivers. And then we tried to help them with data through autonomy, getting their data like the UK gets. And then every project sense. And probably between David and we probably had 200 ideas that haven't happened yet. That throwing out ideas say, hey, what about if you did this or something like that and they throw out stuff and it's just like, it's so easy to spend forever just talking about. But, I mean, the last thing I will say is that the podcast is, like, completely evolved since then. Like what I wanted it to be before I started it, what I started it as and what I went through some warping periods and different things and changes to what it is now. And I kind of feel like it's now. It's like it's in a pattern that I like, yeah, I like the flow. Yeah. I know. There's kind of been a progression, I think in our last couple of episodes that makes you a really good guest on here, because when I took a few months off or something like that started season two, and I started right away with David was actually a guest. Pickerell if you don't know who we're talking about is the CEO of Para. And Paras made a lot of news because of the way that they were able to reveal the actual pay amount on DoorDash deliveries and things like that. It'd be real easy to go down that rabbit hole. But David talked about some of the things that DoorDash had done and trying to change their ability to help drivers out. And then the last episode not talking about the strike, the DoorDash strike that a lot of drivers were doing. And a lot of that was it was fueled by anger over DoorDash hiding the tips about DoorDash reducing pay. And I think there was even some anger over DoorDash changing the algorithm in a way that blocked Para from being able to help drivers out. There was a lot of anger about that out there still is. And it just seems to be getting worse. But, you know, the one thing that so it was just kind of like there's all of this dissatisfaction with DoorDash with gig economy companies all around together. And then people were talking about going on strike. And one problem with the strike is we're not employees. Exactly. But that kind of brings us into this week's topic. And what I wanted to talk about because you've had a lot of people on talking about this, and it is this whole thing about should we be employees? Should we be, you know, independent contractors and then national legislation that is out there that's trying to force companies to hire us as employees instead of independent contractors? And what does that all mean to us? And so I wanted to talk about Pro Act and you've had a number of people on about that, kind of you've had quite a variety of guests and some different things like that. So maybe you can kind of take it from here and talk about some of the things that you have talked about, both pro and Con. Yeah, exactly. Right. And I try and do this often, but it's really hard to find people on both sides of an issue. And you probably know this Ron very well. Like, it's hard to have people on both sides of the issue on your podcast because sometimes how you feel. And I try and be very middle of the road, even if I lean one way or the other. Obviously, that's kind of my position to do that. But I also need other people to be respectful. And by that, I mean not get heated, not start like, saying how it's bad about the other side instead, like a debate, like a non Trump debate might be respectful of the other person. I was just saying that there are a lot of people have wanted to have on I get on a phone call with them. I'm like, there's no way I can have them on the podcast, but I have luckily, with the Proact been able to find a couple of people who, in the old school sense of independent contractors, pre app based on demand services, who have been just tragically destroyed by AB 5. And both of them have an understanding. One of them has a very good understanding. And Ron knows which one I'm talking about. That's Lisa Rothstein, who was on a podcast of ours that you can find. And then the other one is Garel Gordon, and they both just got destroyed. One of them is a freelancer in a bunch of different ways. Six-figure earner. And she has been able to make a dime since AB 5 in California. And she's a big proponent against no AB 5 and no Pro Act. Gale Gordon had her opera house shut down. And it's a nonprofit opera house that has a very unique niche. And for that reason alone, they're like, there isn't another one in the country that does what she does. And she's out of business. She had been open for 25 years. She's done closed, and she tried to stand up for the fight, too. She didn't just shut the doors the first day, and they lived down in La County. So her and her wife I've talked to her and her husband have a good house in a good living, and probably enough that she could retire. She didn't want to, though. She wanted to kept doing these plays or these operas. And so it was impossible. I have had also Willie Salison three times, and he's a controversial one for when I have a mind, because people who listen to the podcast regularly, like, why keep having Willie on and Willie and I have a good back and forth and a very good respect for each other, even if in one conversation we don't agree on anything, we have a good, and i mean that usually doesn't happen. It's actually usually really good conversations where both of us see a little bit of what the others saying. We never change our stance. And we always talk about that. Even so, that the audience here is that this is what needs to happen, not the shouting. Do you see how, like, we're talking? And even though our views aren't changing, we're more accepting of the other side and try and be more empathetic to what they're going through or what they're feeling on this, because as hard as you feel on something somebody else feels different about. So I've had the pleasure of having both sides. Me personally, if I lived in California, I would be I would be livid about AB 5 and it's timing with the with the pandemic and everything and just unreal how all that went down and that the governor Newsom didn't repeal it something he could have done maybe before all the people started calling for his removal, the people who started the removal of him. Act, or the pushes are the same people who would get rid of this thing. We're out of work. So anyway, you know, I sit on the side of no AB five and absolutely no Pro Act. I know a lot of the people in the non app gig based on demand world, like those of us on all these gig platforms. We're under Prop 22. But, you know, like the Pro Act, at least from the old school independent contractors outside of the app based their big pushes, that the ABC test is taken out of the of the Pro Act. And even I've even had it said to me from people who have a good understanding that as long as the ABC parts out, we don't even care if it goes through, because that ABC part being removed allows the decision. And then the one question I did have for somebody is in the right to work state, though, does that allow them that? And yes, it would, because in those cases, it would allow the state to decide how it's worked. And like, Ron, you and I have talked about or you just recently talked about was, you know, how, like, in those right to work state, what happens if you vote that you don't want a Union? But 50.I% vote that they do. And we were talking about how, yes, you'll be forced into the Union, but not only that, they actually share your information with these Union members, your name, your address. I mean, now they can come to your home. And it's just I don't know. To me, it's one of those things where, you know, you read the whole Pro Act. And then there's, like, four line paragraph about the ABC test, and that's the most important part of it to both ICS, both gig based and non gig based. Right? It's like, keep the IRS test dump the ABC test. Yeah. And probably one thing we should do before we go too much further into this. And it's this maybe defining what the Pro Act is for folks that maybe don't understand that or maybe haven't figured heard much about that paid attention to AB 5 in California you start off with. And it comes back to this difference between employee and independent contractor. That DoorDash Grubhub, Uber eats Uber, Lyft, all these companies bring us on as independent contractors. And when we talked last week about the strike, the problem is we're not employees and we're contracted to be doing this work as businesses. And that makes it a little hard to do the problem that some folks see what that is. Okay. There's no guarantees. You know, when we're contractors, there's no minimum wage. You can't force DoorDash to say, okay, you're going to make this much money, you just can't do it. And I think they can kind of a lot of people feel exploited by that. And I think they do kind of my feeling is I do think that they do exploit that designation. But the response then Is it started in California, and actually ABC test has been around for a while. They create we're going to create a more rigid law around when you can use contractors. And they use this ABC test. And it's a three part test that determines whether or not if you meet any one of those three parts or something like that, then you can't if you meet any one of those three parts of that test, you have to be hired as an employee. So tell us a little bit about what that is all about and how they determine that. Right. So I'm actually looking for so I can provide the ABC test here right now because I can read the three parts. Sure. Because it's the b prong that you can't pass the a and the c prong are passable. And folks remember that when we're talking about this portion to like I said, IRS test, not ABC. And Ron said, yeah, basically forever since there's been independent contractors and knowledge of them with the IRS, there has been an IRS test that absolutely works in established and determining whether you're an IC or not. I mean, it's not one of those dated things or whatever that needs to be changed. It actually still applies. It still works. So here's the ABC test, though. I'm going to tell you each of the three prongs ABC one, the individual is free from control and direction in connection with the performance of the service, both under his contract for the performance of service. And, in fact, that one's passable to the service is performed outside the usual course of business of the employer. And that's why not passable. That's why DoorDash will tell you that they are not a delivery company. Right. Because they're trying to they're trying to call themselves SaaS Software is a service. Right. And then three is the individual is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, profession or business of the same nature. Is that involved in the service performed? So not only is A and C passable, oddly, C almost conflicts. B and it's like what by making c why is b there c is saying that you are doing a specific service, profession or business of the same nature as that involved in services performed? Okay. Well, then there would be no way for anybody to pass B people hiring or people looking for work. And the thing is, if you meet any one of those three, then the company cannot hire you as an independent contractor. They've got to hire us as employees. Correct. What happens if that happens? If we're forced to be employees. We have 85% of the drivers in this country don't want that. Right. So I mean, first of all, you only have the 15% and I got to say this, how many of those are full time? I'm just curious, because if many of them are just part time, like so many on the platform, then there's going to be a huge issue with supply. There will be a big issue with cost to customer. You will lose flexibility. Absolutely. And I'm sorry. I don't mean to be so point of fact on a somewhat unknown, but people I will tell you for certain I've talked to a lot of people. I will tell you for certain that if you think at all that there's an employee model that has flex hours, you tell me one job in this world that allows that you to work when you want. Yeah. I think you're right. It doesn't exist. And and that's just it. And it really boils down to control whether or not you've got the freedom to operate as you see. And that's ultimately what the existing IRS rules say it really comes down to. It has to do with control. And there are three tests that they've got and they're all different levels of control. There's behavioral control, there's financial control. And then there's the type of relationship. And all three things are about them controlling you. And, you know, if they're not controlling you, then you're not an employee. That's what this whole thing is really all about in the first place, I think is control. It's about power. It's about control. It's about who gets to be in charge of stuff. A lot of the thing, too. I got to say, it always baffles me. The people who just are on these social media sites like you've seen run to where they're just bashing Uber for not living up to AB 5. And yet these people work the platform. So you hate this company, but you want to be an employee for them. And when you get into that discussion with them, I just got into a discussion with somebody here just in the last day that it was they were all about. Well, we need to form a Union. And it's like, you can't form a Union. You're not employees, but they're screwing us over. And it's like, well, then become an employee. Well, I don't want to be an employee, folks. You can't have both. You know, if you want the freedom that goes with running a business, then run a business. And if you want the guarantees, then be an employee. But I think that's part of the question that's out there is whether or not these companies should be allowed to bring us on as an as a contractor, as opposed to as an employee. There was a guy that I met that I can't remember which platform it was. It was kind of one of these intermediate platforms, one of these little guys that was out there and he was actually an employee for them. So basically his job was to take it was more like a product delivery type of thing. But his job was kind of to take those deliveries that they couldn't get anybody else to take so they could control him. They could tell him where to go and things like that. So they had kind of a hybrid type of thing where most of their people were independent contractors. But then they had employees to kind of pick up the stuff in between. And maybe that's one way to view things, but to force it to be all or nothing. And that's why people are saying remove if so, a lot of the people I've talked to you when I asked them in the beginning when I was asking, what do you mean? Irs, ABC, and they explained and showed me the difference way back when I was looking into this. One of the things that they're just fine with is if there can be a way that everybody gets to decide, do you want to be in these unions? You get their mercy. Be an employee, have to strike if you have to get a floor payment, which will also be your ceiling payment, by the way, folks, because they'll have to move to a franchise model or something of that nature. And at that time, you're going to have a boss. He's only going to hire a certain amount that meets his demand. He's only going to put enough supply into the demand. Almost like, Ron, you and I were talking about the service industry and bartending and stuff almost like that. You might have to call in, like when I was a bartender on certain nights, we had to call in and see if I was going to be needed. And a lot of times my boss, I'd be schedule eight. I'd call in at 7. Call back at nine. I don't know yet. Call back at nine. He'd be like, I don't think I'm going to need you tonight. So now my night shot and I didn't even get to work, you know what I mean? So you're going to be seeing things like if you want to get minimum wage and health benefits, you're going to see things like this. Trust me. You're going to see you're not going to be able to pick your hours. You're not even going to be able to pick where you work, and you're going to. And by the way, one nice thing for anybody that wants to I will say you're going to have acceptance rate. Yep. Because you don't have is the first time you missed one, you fired up. Yeah. And that's the thing. You know, there's I don't think a lot of people realize what they're asking for. If they want to be employees. You got a delivery going to a bad part of town. Too bad you got to take it. And they might not even provide you any information. Like, at the end of the night, you might find out all your tips, whatever. You're not going to see money anymore. You're just going to see go here, do this, do this. It's going to be a job, people. You're not going to be your boss. What about the people that say on the other side that there's no reason that an employer could not be flexible? There's not there's absolutely no they absolutely could. They could do both. They could do employees and flex. But I still put the gauntlet down. Show me that company. I mean, like Ron was talking about, there was one. But I'm just saying in the really big picture of the world, show me the company that allows that. That allows some people to have the employee status and others to have they can not only they can just be independent contractors, but now they can turn on work whenever they want. Again, folks, if you're going to have in this scenario, you're going to have the employees the employee status and whether it's through Uber, Lyft, or whether it's through a franchise. They're not going to allow independent contractors, too, because they're already going to have the employees modeled out for the region that they cover, how many they need, and they're going to schedule accordingly. They're not going to say, by the way, other hundred people you can just sign on. Yeah. Because why are they going to then give a group of people the chance to turn down offers or cherry pick? Right. And remember this part, too. Obviously, they're not, because if the whole insurance thing starts to turn over on them. So no, it's not how Uber and Lyft work with insurance. It's now going to be that they would have to even if you're ICing, they would have to pay your insurance or have you under their insurance and you're not employed. Guess what, guys, again, I hate to just be a realist that's not going to happen. Well, I think here's the thing that I think about when when I hear those arguments that are things like, well, there's nothing that stops them from being flexible and all of that. But it's like, okay, here's the one side where you're campaigning on how terrible these companies are, right, that they're exploiting you, that there the scum. And I think there's plenty of reason to say any of them are scum, but it's like all of a sudden that these big companies, you bring out all the evilness of the gig companies. But then all of a sudden, it's like you're going to change the law and they're going to flip a switch. And now all of a sudden, the guys going to become model citizens. They're going to give you all the hours you ever wanted, all the free time, the over time that you ever wanted. If you wanted to do more than 40 hours, and they're going to give you all the flexibility you ever wanted, how is an evil giant going to all of a sudden become the best employer ever just because you change the law? No. In fact, I would think that this evil giant will get much eviler. It's like you're poking him with a stick over and over until he has to actually get his lazy butt up and go, okay, enough. So I can guarantee I just can guarantee. I mean, I really feel like I can that no matter what, the outcome of this would not be good. There may be a few handful of people that would like it, but I even think the system would be so disrupted that it would take maybe a few years even for it to go through all these changes that will go through and how it works. And in the end, it will end up in a place way worse than what you guys are complaining or what anybody on that side is complaining about now. Yeah. In the end, it might begin is something decent, but I don't even think so. I think it would start off even bad, but I think it would evolve into a worse thing, just like how rates have dropped. But at least you can see the rates know what you can make. And again, I can't stress it enough. All the people I know who have been doing this forever all do it for the flexibility, obviously, for the money. But it's not like I don't mind to work either. But it's not like this is the we're all fighting for this job. It's that this can work in any setting for you. Yeah. And I think that's the beauty of it, because it's like I call it a gateway drug in that it's an opportunity to get into business for yourself without all of the things that you usually have to do to get into business. And so you get a chance to operate your own business. It's a taste of that freedom, but it is something that you could do it full time if you wanted to make it full time. Or it could be the thing that you do during lunch hour or when you get home at the end of the day because you just need to make some extra money to make ends meet or to pay the bills or save up for something. And there's that, you know, that freedom and the flexibility. And I think it was a life saver during the pandemic that people could just go out and make money and not go through all the rigmarole that goes with employment, and you're going to take all of that away. I mean, the bottom line is I don't no matter where you live in the United States, it might not be as much as some cities. But right now I don't know anywhere in the United States that you can live and not walk out your door and go find a job today that it probably starts today. So if what you're looking for is minimum wage, maybe a little more than a minimum wage even, and health benefits, I almost put the challenge to you go out for a day and look for a job, and I bet you have one by the end of the day. So why throw a grenade into what 85% of us enjoy? No,I agree. You know, here's the thing I think that I look at is that when you take seriously this idea that you're running a business, that's the agreement that you signed, you said that you said I agree that I'm an independent contractor. I agree that I'm contracting with you as a business and not as an employee. When you're doing that, that makes DoorDash or Uber or Instacart or any of those companies that actually makes them your customer. And here's the reality is, when you're running any kind of business, is your customers going to try and screw you, they are going to take advantage of you. And I think DoorDash is the epitome of that cut type of customer. Doordash is probably the customer that would shoplift from your store. He's the one coming in the restaurant to put a finger in the hamburger. Yeah, exactly. But the thing is, when you're running a business and that's the reality that you're going to have customers, they're going to try and get away with crap. But you work around that and you still make your business profitable, and you deal with that. But do you want to turn that worst customer into your boss? Well put, I don't yeah, exactly. It's like, okay, I can deal with DoorDash is my customer, no matter how crappy they get. And if at some point it gets to be too bad, then it's like, okay, I'm done with DoorDash for a while. I did that with Uber Eats for the longest time because I didn't know where it was going, anything like that. And I was like, okay, I'm done with you guys for a while. Until you make it better, they made it better. And now I think I do more Uber Eats than anybody else. But that's the freedom that we've got with that. But it's like if I don't trust them as a customer, I certainly don't trust them to be my employer or my boss. Also, I'd say look at this, too. I've been doing right here long enough where I know if you go back even three years, if you go back to when I started in 2014, for sure. But if you go even back three, four years, there wasn't one person complaining about we need to be employees because we were making a lot more. Yeah. Okay. And that kind of in 2014, it was amazing. You didn't even care where the money was coming from. You just go work for around and get a ton of money. And then by 2017, it had gone down a bit and the ways were changing. But there was the surge coming on, and it was the multiplier in the beginning. Then it went to flat and surge and all these changes. So they're ever evolving the platform. And I'm not defending Uber here at all at all or lyft with algorithms they use. And some of the things that run and I probably don't want to even get sidetrack you're on are discussing and wrong. However, they do tell you what you will earn per mile. They do tell you what you will earn per minute. So that's up to you because it really then has to become a balance of. Yeah, I know this. You don't need to fill my head with a bunch of stuff about it, and I'll work it and make it work for me because I need Flex to be able to do this. And if you can't make it work, then you don't work that platform anymore. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's the big thing right there. It's like if you own a restaurant and somebody walks in and offers you $2 for the prime rib, I say not unless you were like, really desperate. And if you're that desperate, you're going to go out of business. But the only time that we really start hearing all this voice about we need AB 5. Forget these companies was really just when the rates went down that there was just one too many times. I remember it just went down one more time, and as soon as it did, I think it's even gone down to time since. But as soon as it did, it was getting pretty ridiculous. And it needs to be looked at now that it were postpandemic for sure by these companies. But I remember that's when people start being like, this is crap and all new drivers were getting on social media and seeing it and going, I'm thinking the same thing. First of all, if you've only been driving under six months or a year shouldn't have an opinion, because all jobs take a while to really understand, you know, or all gigs or whatever. But again, it's are you making it work? Can you give up things in your life to be able to work the hours you need to to make the money you're trying to make. But then again, it's your flexible time. You get to pick when it is, any changed to this, and people can say what they want. Guys, again, I'm going to say it flex is gone under an employee model. It's gone up. It is. So you talked about how prices were going down and everything like that. And I know your experience has been on the ride share side of things. And it seems like this race to zero. And it seems like it's going that way with delivery, too, that everybody's kind of following suit. It was paying really good for a while, and it just kind of slowly goes down and down and down. Do you see let me know your thoughts, because I'm going somewhere with this. But let me know your thoughts on where Uber and Lyft are right now with their struggles trying to get drivers right now. Do you see that as part of kind of a natural result of what they've been doing, or is it strictly pandemic related? I think that it's I think it's both. And I think that it's pandemic related, even in two ways. Is pandemic related that people got very feared off by it at game time to evaluate? I do think that there is way, way, way more people on Pua than people realize still. And I think that when that ends September 6, I think we're going to see a huge influx back to the app based gigs because schools will be starting. College football will be rolling out. It's kind of like that New Year feeling almost. And it's going to be like and a lot of people are feeling very safe to go do things these days. So I think that you're going to see people just waiting out because you can't get the Pua and work right. If you start saying that you're working well, I mean, you can, but they'll start taking it out against part of it, whatever the formula. And then if you do it too many weeks, they would call you an employee or that you're working, and you need to get back to it. So nonetheless, you can't be doing both. So people. I think that I've talked to a few people who are just like, yeah, I'm sure it will make a difference, but not that many people are left on. Okay. I think you're wrong. And I think that once that money stops flowing into them, obviously reality sets and how do you pay for stuff? Yeah, that's true. I kind of wondered how much just Uber and Lyft has just been begging for drivers. And I wonder how much of that is just that they've kind of created this relationship or they've done with the relationship, what they have to a point where they've burned so many bridges that they can't get enough drivers come back now. So my take on this is maybe a little bit different than most. So you know how they did that? It was at $250,000,000 campaign to bring drivers back. Right. And the way they spent that, to me was like everything with Uber. And I mean, I don't have a 60 person think tank team to go through this with, and they do. So I'm always surprised when I'm like, that seems dumb, but I feel like the way that they rolled that out was really dumb. I do. I feel like that there was a lot better use of that money then, just like increasing people's, like referral rates and stuff and having some crazy number on it. Still, when they're even when they were really doing it, ride share. Like, we're now ride share passengers are back in full drivers are not. But this was at a point when even the ride share passengers werent back fully and they were doing this referral system. So if you referred somebody, they were really making it. They were saying 140 rides in a month that would take, like, 80 hours a week. Not normally not pre pandemic, but at that time when they were doing it, it wasn't like there was a rides everywhere, right? At that time, there wasn't riders or drivers too many. So you weren't going to be able to hit that number most of the time. I do know we talked about when you were on the podcast and we had Jason from Idaho, Jason from Michigan and David and all of us the one I call the Oceans eleven episode. I do know that they were also if you remember, Jason Peace and from Drive to Win 13 in Idaho was telling us that they were re onboarding drivers who hadn't been kicked off the platform but hadn't worked for even, like, a year or two or three years prior to the pandemic. They were now offering them the incentive of do 140 rides get $1800 to come back? Yeah. Just crazy. Like you were getting these big things that you're not supposed to get, except for one time. Right? So they were even, like, hitting up drivers that hadn't drove in three years and saying, hey, because nobody really nobody closes their Uber accounts. So let's say you do it for two years, then you take a fulltime position 60 hours a week as a salary position and still just I mean, most likely you're not gonna call them, say I want to close it. I mean, if you're sure and stuff. Sure. But you want to think about it, because if you close it, it might be very hard to reopen. I don't know, but you're better off just kind of leaving it. They already have your data. So it's not like they're stealing more data from they've already stolen it. They've already got that in the pocket. But there's no reason to really discontinue because you don't know what's coming up down the road ahead. You might need some extra scratch or you might get can. Who knows? Yeah, I get that. Kind of the reason that I wondered about that where I was going with that. Is there's a piece where you wonder, how much does the market actually start to police some of the actions of these companies? That it's like once you go too far with how you treat your contractors. Now all of a sudden you can't get enough contractors. And I wonder when the time will come when, you know, DoorDash and grub hub come to mind the most. You know, it's just kind of like deactivating people at the drop of a hat or the stuff that DoorDash pulls with hiding the tips with some of the crap that they've been pulling with Para and just different things like that that eventually does that thing come back to bite them in the butt, where all of a sudden now they've moved on to more drivers. But all of a sudden you get to point where there's not enough new drivers to bring on to match with all the bridges that they burned. And does the market take care of itself on a lot of these things more than trying to force changes through legislation? Right? I don't know. That's a rough question. Because what? We have 1.6 million dashes in this country. I mean, to me and again, I'm not really breaking it down to the state and all the cities and taking in the size of every city and every state right now. But it just seems like too many. I don't know why it just does. And that's been the model of these companies. So I'm sure it is, is to have way too many people working it. So I think there needs to be some way to not necessarily limit, but it may be at least, like, kept bringing people on, boarding people at certain times when a market hits a certain level and is maintaining it, even if it's different drivers, if they're like, let's say that, like, on Tuesday night, you need a part of 100 drivers on. And that part on Tuesday night, every week is 100 people. And on all your other nights, it's pretty close to meeting the part of need. They shouldn't be onboarding too many more. Yes. Some people will quit and whatnot, but as soon as they do, you start onboarding again. And within days, you've got thousands more. Yeah. Especially because now people would be waiting to be on boarded. So you'd actually have a waiting list of people who you could say, okay, four people quit. Let's on board ten. Right. Right. Yeah. I don't know. On board, everybody is just rude and taking advantage of the situation in my mind. Oh, I believe I agree completely. And I think that's part of what makes this a little bit of a complicated topic, because there's the side that is just like, okay. We absolutely do not want to be employees. At least I know you and I don't. And like I said 85% of people don't I think out of those 85%, half of them still think that they are. But. And also there's a few stats out there that range 88% from 91% that are part time drivers. So let's say 91% are part time I'm guessing that they absolutely need the Flex, because my guess is they have another job, I think, for other gigs 90% or whatever, you know, independent contractor stuff or whatever. Right. Listening to the interview on another podcast with the President of operations or something from DoorDash, and I think he was saying on that that it was he mentioned, I think at the time, about 2 million drivers and like, 90% of them were 8 hours or less a week. Right. Yeah. That sounds like one thing to really when I'm talking about getting stats and maybe I do it wrong. But I try and get it from sources and people that I email with who are reporters and might know outside of just posting and social and whatnot. But I try and stay away from what these CEOs say. Sure. They could be cooking these book numbers they read so bad. Yeah. I mean, I can come out and say anything. He can come out and say 2% that's true. You don't get access to DoorDashes books, you won't be able to fact check it. But I think there's definitely a trust issue when it comes to DoorDash, all of them. I think that's part of the problem is that there is there's so much bad behavior on the part of the gig companies that people are trying to figure out. How do you police that? Now, let me ask this question. Do you think that Uber and DoorDash and all these other companies are exploiting the independent contractor model in any way? Yeah, I do. And I think that however, again, I'm going to go back to what you just said that you and I and 85% of the people doing this, what a stay independent contractors. That's my first and foremost must happen. Okay. So before I say this, but yes, I do. I think that especially I think there's some severe ethical problems, for sure, on the part of AB 5 was incorrect, which turned into AB 2257. They're one in the same, but it was so sloppy written and whatnot, but it was not right, and it hurt a ton of people. They developed Prop. 22 not to save a lot of the people who also needed it, but just to save the app based community, gig workers and people had to vote for Prop. 22, who probably would have based on the companies behind it, Uber, Lyft, Instacart and DoorDash who put in $200 million to push Prop 22. It was necessary for those who want to stay to vote yes on it, regardless of how you felt. But it's weird to look at that proposition and see those four huge corporations that have treated people so poorly are the ones backing the initiative you have to vote for to override a law that was incorrect. Yeah. So here's the problem, though. Now I think that now that it happened and it passed, I think that they're kind of starting to step outside of the margins of Prop. 22, which, you know, everybody had to vote for Prop. 22 in California was to be IC and they did. And then there's this whole Prop. 22 written out of what it is. And honestly, I find a lot of errors in it. Like, I think that there's a lot of stuff that you could you could argue they're not doing. Oh, absolutely. I agree. Here's the irony in Prop. 22. Prop 22, by definition, actually puts them in violation of the IRS test because of the hourly pay. That's the financial control. You got that hourly minimum that actually provides financial control. It gives them a little more control because they they can control whether or not you multi app things like that. That's the part that I find fascinating. Nobody touched on that yet. But something may come up. I don't know. Here's how I see that, because I've heard the most tapping thing a bunch, and I actually see it like this. I don't think the maybe there's been some incidents, but I don't think they're really cracking down on it, but they've got it in the language again, how you and I were talking about how when newbies come on, they see the acceptance rate. People acceptance rate doesn't matter anymore in California. And the model that they're moving around the country to fight the Proact and to fight Massachusetts right now legislation is it doesn't matter. I mean, many of you dashes out there, I'm sure we'll know that you have 2-5% acceptance rates. I've seen you guys post them, so I know it's true. But, you know, like, they don't matter. I think that Ron and I were talking we both kind of think that they're more like put there for the newbies to kind of scare them almost for a while until they get the hang of things. That's part of their Mo, really. I see it in the behavior of these companies that it really is about. They can't legally control you, but they control a lot of drivers through fear. And I think that's what the whole Deactivation thing is about. It's about. It's kind of like Deactivated one people to scare the rest of the drivers into submission. Well, so the other thing I was trying to get out with that was that, yes, maybe they have activated a few. And I don't even know that I've seen a few people say it and whatnot I don't know about it. But nonetheless, I think that it's nice tool for them to have in their of pocket. Who knows that if things get more sloppy and messy, they might start using it. I mean, they're not exactly the greatest Wizards of technology people, but like the app based company still might be working on things to find ways to find out if you are multi apping. Sure right now I'll just tell you, they don't have that ability. You have to almost catch yourself. You definitely have one app on. You have to be driving the wrong way and accept an order. There was some other something dumb. You don't have to do something dumb that would flag you. Now, here in California, I'm sorry, here in Colorado, they can't prevent you from multi apping. And in California, they can't as far as if you do one platform, as soon as you're done, then you turn the others on, and they can't prevent that. The only thing that they can prevent is picking up deliveries for Uber and DoorDash at the same time. But even then, how do they know? Unless you're dumb enough to take delivery from DoorDash that goes away north, and at the same time as you take one from Uber Eats, it's going way south. That kind of becomes a little more obvious then. Right. And maybe some people who get really good at it actually know, well, this one, I'm only going a half mile out of my way and then only have to go three quarters of a mile to drop my first one off. Then I can take a second, and that wouldn't be enough to flag it. And maybe some people have learned little tricks like that. I don't know. But nonetheless, that is the way problem in my mind that they would catch you. Is the second platform where you accept one saying, Where is this guy going? I think there's a reality out there that ultimately if people really understood what it was being an independent contractor, and if the relationship really were a business to business relationship across the board, DoorDash and Uber and Uber Eats and Grub Hub, and any of these companies wouldn't have enough contractors to complete the deliveries, because if they were making sure that people really understood what they were getting into, they wouldn't have enough people. And I think that's the area where I feel like there's some maybe you would even call it misclassification. But I think that that's an area where there's a problem with the independent contractor model, because the problem is that these companies want they want you to be an employee, but they want to pay you as an independent contractor. Right. And I think there's a problem. And that's why I think that has a lot to do with why we're in this situation now with Pro Agct, because then you get people fed up and what they want to do is they want to go to the opposite extreme and just force them to hire employees. And I'm not sure that's the best idea we'll get to that in a second. But I honestly am still kind of sticker shocked by how many people I start talking about Pro Act with. Like, what is that? Yeah. And they're like full time gig employees on, like, six platforms. I'm like, how do you not know? You don't need to know what Ron and I know. But how do you not know about this? Yeah. This is your future ending is and there is anything very real about that most likely it's not going to go through. We just saw the infrastructure bill go through it on what was it? Tuesday? Yes. Okay. So on Tuesday, it went through. And then Tuesday night, they pushed the 3.2 trillion package. And from what Ron and I could find, it was just really the only parts of things to do with Prouduct. We're regarding Rails because it had something about Amtrack in there, but it really didn't address the ABC test or any kind of change of that nature that we found anyway. Right. Yeah. Because Proact as a bill by itself, is stuck right now. It's essentially they're going to need to get as things stand right now, 60 votes to be able to push that thing through. The look at they shoved it or they were trying to shove exactly where it as it was into infrastructure. Yeah. Which was just incorrect. And that's maybe one of the things right now, as far as that act by itself is not likely to happen. But just like what you said, the infrastructure thing, the government has a way of trying to hide these things in something. If it's not going to pass by itself, we're going to try and hide we're going to try and hide it in some other bill. And when they pass the stimulus bill at the end of December of last year, they snuck in a little piece that change the 1099k ruling, which for Uber, Uber eats Lyft drivers. That changes when you have to report your taxes from $20,$000 to $600. And so if you've been delivering for them and you're used to and not having to report your taxes because you're not getting a 1099, get ready for a change this year. And that's not a small number on to talking about that. They push through as part of the infrastructure, the gas okay. I'm not sure where it is. And again, it's not like it's an easy read, guys. And right now they tried to shove so much stuff in infrastructure that didn't belong that has been weeded through. So we're kind of waiting on a final draft that we can really read. There's a lot of stuff out there. You can read and try and get ideas from where it was to where it is. But we're never 100% sure of what's going on over there, because they're also trying to kick it through reconciliation. Yeah. But I mean, they're just trying a lot of maneuvers, and hopefully we'll get that shut down. We have three standouts Democrats in the Senate. I just want to mention I'm thinking of it. The Democrat from Arizona, actually, two from Arizona and one from Virginia, Kristen Cinema, Mark Kelly and Mark Warner from Virginia. And Mark Warner is kind of a key to this. If he stays firm on this, I honestly think we won't see the Pro Act go through at all. No, I don't think they will. I don't think they will anyway. But as long as he stands strong, I think it's like solidified. Right. Kind of just to explain to anybody, I didn't quite understand how this works with getting the votes through. Pro Act has passed the House of Representatives, but it has not passed in the Senate. In the Senate, they have to get 50 votes. The Democrats are the one pushing it through right now. They've only got 47 votes to pass something, you have to get 50 votes. But if there's enough opposition from the other side where they're going to do what's called a filibuster, then they have to get 60 votes. And so those are two different things. And you could spend a lot of time talking about how all that works. Right. But there's two different things there that basically say it is probably not going to pass as it is. The Pro act has passed the House for three years in a row. It passed in 2019, last year 2020 and this year 2021. And as the Pro Act. Now, before it went to the Senate this week, they were trying all these things to shove it into infrastructure. And luckily, it ended up that they didn't shove that portion in the ABC test and any of that. So that kind of it still leaves it at bay, how it's being handled, and it could be extra dirty and deceiving. How it's being done. I don't know. But at least it won't be showing up through in the infrastructure bill at this point. Exactly. Yeah. And I think those are the two things that we probably have to keep an eye on is that there's really two ways that it could pass. One is that you can change the rules, which basically means you don't have to have the 60 votes. But then you still have to get those three senators to go on board. But they can change the rules. We talked about reconciliation. That was actually like a rule change that happened a few years ago that allowed budget bills to go through with only 50 votes. The other thing is they can hide it. Like we were talking about, they were going to try and hide it in the infrastructure that got blocked. They could hide it in something else. So there's always that possibility that I can still get pushed through. It doesn't look like it's going to pass, but that's a high priority for a lot of people that they want to get this thing pushed through. It is. And even we sit in a weird position to even Joe Biden ran to be able to say, and he was going to help push this through. Yet last year, we saw the government make so many contracts with Uber Lyft, you know. So, I mean, like, how is he straddling that horse? I mean, you can't say you're going to do everything for the people who want to be employees, but you're working with the company as it stands right now. Yeah, because that's not even kind of that's an endorsement, right? No, I get that kind of one last thing I want to touch on, because at least right now doesn't look like it will go through. You don't want to rest too easy. And I think with the senators that you just mentioned, if you're in a state with those senators and get in touch with them and say, hey, stay the course, stay the course. Don't go changing your mind now or something like that. I can email them, email them anything you can find the emails on the government site. Is there a better way to do things? Because there's a problem here? There's a problem with the misbehavior by the gig companies, but if forcing them to hire employees isn't the way to go, is there a better way to take care of this? Is there a better way to do something about the way that these companies are acting? Do you think? I mean, we can watch how the worker class plays out in London, in Europe, because the Supreme Court ruling that here in America, we have when you're talking about in this form, we have independent contractors and employees. Those are the two things the court right. And the Supreme Court over across the pond ruled, finally, that their arguments have been going on a little longer than ours, too. So, oddly, you can kind of watch them as a little bit in front of us in regards to how they're treating the gig economy. They got on it a little bit quicker than the US, so they're a little bit ahead. So it's kind of nice to watch how it plays out because they just finished making their worker class status. And we've got river class status. Gig workers get app based on demand. Gig workers for the platforms that we've been talking about today over there. They've got other ones, like deliveroo and the one that you were talking about justeat or whatever. Oh, yeah. The guys with all those there's a lot of other things, too, but they have Uber and stuff they don't have lyft, but they've got their own versions of all these. And if you're working those platforms, you are now with the worker class. Which is not fully employee, but it has some protections that independent contractor doesn't have. Is that right? Right. And you are guaranteed an hourly minimum wage. So, I mean, you're guaranteed to make X amount if you stay on for the hour. Like, so if you only make I'm just going to use arbitrary numbers. If it's $20 or $15 that they're guaranteed, you're making only make nine, you're going to still get 15. So it's a weird system. And I don't know that I think it'll be I don't think in London they're not really able to challenge it. They can. But try and challenge the Supreme Court ruling over there. It doesn't happen. You don't overturn it. So this is now a fact. I think that now it's watching, it involved. How will it change? Yeah. Because you had a guy on your podcast that was from over there one time, didn't you? Yeah. More out a few times. Yes. Okay. He's my ears on the ground. He's a blogger over there. It's driver app London. He's a good guy, and he kind of writes about some stuff going on from the street from the driver perspective. And he's got a lot of London people who comment. So I had reached out to him and we kind of had a conversation a bunch of times before and on. But, yeah, he's shed light on it a few times. I think it's our Episode 51 of Ride Share Rodeo is the one where he fully breaks down the worker class right after it got done. So head over to the Ride Share Rodeo podcast and give that one a listen, because I think that's at least something if you're thinking about, is there an in between, maybe that is an option. The only other thing I can think of is there. You know, why isn't there any kind of effort out there to police the control over steps that are taking place out there? It's kind of like if you can't control the independent contractor, I don't think that means that you have to force us to be employees. Can you still police those over steps and things like that? You know, it's really weird that everything would go away for all the headaches and lawsuits that lyft and Uber. And all these companies spend every day. They're wasting so much money not just on having attorneys on retainer, but active attorneys fighting cases all over the world. And right here in the US, if they literally just went to a split 80 20 75 25, everything, every headache would go away immediately for them, and then they could adjust their pricing model to reflect we need to make our nut based on the and then therefore us drivers know, hey, they're going to make us as much money as they can. We don't need to see surge and all this anymore. We would just know we know we're going to make as much as we can because they need to make their money. It's only 25% yeah. And that becomes, I think, even more of a true contractor model, because exactly what you're getting now is based on what they're getting. And it's really almost like a direct payment from the customer then. And it actually goes back to the initial campaign of Uber. Be a driving partner. That way, I don't have to look at rides and go, I don't want that one. I'll just take everything you send me because I know you're working your butt off to make as much money on every ride as you can, because if you're taking 25% they got to make sure they're making their numbers, which will change the rates which have been needing to change. They don't need to be 200% like they are now, but they need to come up. Here's an interesting thing you mentioned that be a driving partner, and this is just a little tidbit that maybe isn't related at all. But I was talking with somebody from Uber or about Uber eats about kind of like an advertising relationship, something like that. One of the things that they told me was that the content on my website, if I'm doing that, I can't mention Uber as a partner. They don't even want to use the word partner anymore. No, the complete I've actually seen it in the website on a couple of spots, and I almost think with the way I know these companies always thought there's no way they missed up, but actually do I think they've removed a couple of things, but they really have tried to unbrand the partner thing. Yeah. To the point that if you're doing kind of like advertising affiliate relationship with them, they won't do that partnership. If you're calling them, they won't do the partnership with you as a publisher. If you're calling the relationship of drivers with them a partnership. Well, it's changed a few times. I remember that for years when they were first getting away from the partnership, it was their big thing was earn on your time. When it changed from be Uber partner, it changed to earn on your time. And I think it's changed again now. But, I mean, like, for years, it was earned on your time. Yeah. And I think it was the system sells into, though, is that lack of consistency, that it's like, ultimately we don't matter. They're my customer. So I don't care. I mean, I didn't think that personally, but it is an attitude that ultimately I think that's part of what's getting them in trouble. And so one thing I think for sure is they need to look at their pricing model right now. You know, before the Pandemic and one that they were in a race to the bottom, never would Uber go one Penny above a lyft price. You know what I mean? Or whenever possible, obviously, in real time, it's hard to do that. But, I mean, they would try to always stay right there. And it was a race to the bottom a little bit. Who can undercut as far as what? And then now we're seeing 200 - 250% rates the passengers bring. That's the first time they've ever done that. So they didn't even do, like, a 120 % like it should have been this official move up. They just said Pandemic boom. And I feel like part of that so that they can lower it back down but not get it back to where it was. Right. Because if you do 250% to people that are let's say that like, you fly out twice a month to a city and you know that an Uber ride is $40 to your house. If right now it's 100 and you're like, what the heck? And they roll it back to 60, you'll be like, sweet. But really, it's not. They just raised it $20 on you. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing where I heard that Trump used to do as part of his negotiations was he would ask for something so outrageous that people would get just all up in arms. So then he'd come back with something else, and it's like, okay, that's better. And what he's done is actually gotten away with more than what he was asking for to begin with. And it sounds like kind of what Uber is doing our drivers on the ride share side because because the rates are getting so outrageous out there, are drivers getting that money at all. It's odd you say that all the people I talked to. No, what I've heard from people is you might make more per hour because you have never ending rides, which is something we stopped seeing even way before the pandemic. Right. You often were sitting idle than if the wheels aren't moving. You're not making money. I mean, a lot of times you were sitting idle those days, I think right now anyway, and almost every market are gone. If you turn on, you will have rides the whole day. So therefore you're probably making more per hour, but you're also spending more on gas, but you're going to do more for the right you're not being paid more. However, I just had, like, a really intense email written to me by a New Jersey driver who listened to the podcast this week where I was talking about that and said she actually sent me all her stats. And I'm looking at having her on the podcast because she's like, I don't know that I agree with that. I actually am making more money. Oh, that's interesting. And she sent me a bunch of, like, actually, it was crazy. She's sending me all these full breakdowns of her numbers. It was a really well articulated email. It was about three pages, so I contact her. So would you want to come on the podcast? Because I'd like to talk about this. That is interesting. And the reason I wondered that a little bit was I can remember a snowstorm one time. And I looked up and I was just like, I wonder what's going on with Uber Eats right now or something. And I pulled them up and they were doing like, $20 delivery fees. Oh, dude, I should be out there delivering right now. And I pull up the app. There was no surge. There was nothing extra. They were not paying any extra, but they're charging the customer a whole lot more money. And what that actually ends up doing is, you know, what I think I was probably doing was probably costing drivers money because what happens is the customer. They see that $20 fee, and they just figure, okay, the driver must be making a lot more money for doing that. And so I don't need to do a tip on top of it. So the driver still gets the same money, and they get less in tips. Exactly. And also, when you mention what I'm guessing, anyway, wouldn't you mention a snow day? We see snow here on the front range sometimes here and there. But when I think Ron talking about snow days, really dangerous, roads, extreme. A lot of people who have snow wherever you live, you might not see what he's talking about. These are the days that it is truly dangerous to be out there. Yeah, exactly. That type of day. And again, it's kind of like it's that inconsistency. That's all the stuff I guess we're trying to solve today. It's like, okay, they don't treat us like independent contractors all the time, but we don't want to be employees. And there's got to be a way in between. And one of these days we'll get that problem solved. I mean, bottom line, people is really think through. I guess I would do a pro cons list of why you want to be an employee of this company. I think you might be very sticker shocked on that one, too, to see who my cons list is really long. Yeah. If you're honest with yourself. If you're being very honest and you're sitting alone and you're just doing this, you might find like, okay, I'm going to do this to prove him wrong. You might find that your pro list is only one or two things, and that if you're really being honest and adding in, I'll lose my flex. I will be an employee. I'll have to work. When they say I'll have to take every ride, I will be paid a floor payment, and that will also be my ceiling payment. Just everything. If you're really being honest and you put this down, it's not going to look as good on paper. Yeah. And then you wonder, at what point does the tips go away? Well, why wouldn't they take it off? Because these companies, if they have to pay you as an employee, they'll just kind of be like, well, if they want to tip you, they'll do it cash because we want to make it look like they don't spend any more than this. Exactly. And that's what happened in California with Prop 22 when especially Grub Hub was the worst one at this. That all of a sudden now they have to pay this minimum amount and they quit suggesting a tip based on a percentage. A lot of times it was either like one, two or $3.$50 order. And they're suggesting a dollar for the tip or they're not suggesting anything for the tip. And they even put a note in there that says basically the point where the driver is making enough now because of this program that you don't need to tip. And the whole reason for that was Grubhub put on a surcharge to cover their extra cost, but they didn't want the total amount to look like customers have to pay more. So essentially, what they did was they took it away from the drivers. And that's the part that I think you want to be really careful about. If you get yourself, if you push them into an employee model, that's the thing you got to be careful about is they're going to pull that kind of crap. Right. Steve, thank you so much for all of your time here. I have kept you on probably longer than I think you planned on being here. And I appreciate that. And I did that to you yesterday when we got together. No, we did it to each other. Yeah. Ron and I had ever met in person. And we actually we were able to go out and have a coffee yesterday. And I think both of us were thinking an hour, but it just turned into an organic conversation that we should really go more. Yeah, we set down the coffee. Bgy a coffee house. Alright. Thanks for coming on. And I'll have to have you back on here. And especially as we see things evolve here with all this, if nothing else is just going to be an interesting ride. Okay. Yeah, I agree. I I think right now we're in the clear, by the way, for the Pro Act, I think that it would have to be on its own merit. And I don't think that can happen. So in a nutshell, would be the I agree. I think it stands. By the way, while we were just talking literally a half a minute ago, I didn't see it, but an email banner came through saying the FDA just approve the vaccine. Okay, I don't know. Again, weird timing just before school. And there's a lot of breakthrough cases. I don't know. We know a common gig caster that. Well, I might have got sick and been vaccinated only for two months or a few months or whatever. Yeah, kind of weird. Just weird stuff going on. Weird times, is it is it tells you all about that the ancient curse. May you live in interesting times? Yes. Absolutely. Well, my friends, these are interesting times. And I thank you, all of you, for hanging out with us and everything like that. And thank you, Steve, for hanging out with the crew. So Courier nation, you can kind of see how Steve and I could end up spending 4 hours talking shop at a coffee shop when we got together yesterday. And even today, it would have been so easy for us. Just keep going with this conversation. Maybe we could have maybe we should have and just make a multi episode thing out of it. You know what? You know that I can go down a rabbit hole very easily and probably sell. I was starting to at different time. Steve was really good at Keeping us on track, and I want to thank Steve for just coming on again. Hopefully we can get a chance to do this again. Now, folks, this is important stuff. It really is. I think we've got two choices, and it's not just about our gig work. It's really about anything in life. You can choose to let everybody else dictate your life, or you can choose to be the one to take control. And that's what I love about this opportunity of being an independent contractor. It gives us the chance to take control. We don't have to rely on DoorDash, Uber, Uber, Lyft. Rob. How any of those companies for our success, we can take on our success, create our success ourselves. And as we wrap up to date, that's the thing that I really hope to take away from this That in the end, the secret isn't forcing these guys to be fair. The secret is for you and I to take control. And as we close out this episode, that's what I really encourage you to do. To take control and be the boss.