Interview With Dave O'donnell. Grammy winning Producer, Mixer, and Engineer.

In this episode, Scott talks with Dave O'donnell. A well known producer, mixer, engineer who is known for his work with James Taylor, Keith Richards, John Mayer, Eric Clapton, Sheryl Crow, and many more.

Scott and Dave discuss Dave's early days at The Power Station, current work life, business, industry insider stories from epic recording sessions and much more. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:30

I'm finally on my way time.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Making Music at MasterDisc. I'm Scott Hull, owner and chief engineer of MasterDisc in New York, and today we've got a longtime friend and uh colleague, um professional audio engineer, producer, studio owner, and uh and uh chief bottle washer, uh Dave O'Donnell is with us today. Hi, Dave. Hey, Scott, how are you? I'm great. I'm great. Really been looking forward to this conversation for some time. Um I instead of going way into our uh histories and past, I'll just say that um we met something like um years ago. Uh way too many years ago, uh we were both in a recording uh Tonmeister program at Fedonia in upstate New York, same year actually. And uh we both went in um similar but but rather different ways through the audio biz. So we'll talk about that a little bit. But um I'm gonna put all of Dave's uh credentials and uh and a little bit of his history in the description on the podcast, and of course you can you can certainly um look him up for yourself. Um we won't fate make Dave like just tell us you know his life story here. But instead, let's get down to some conversations. Um instead of talking about your past, what are you doing? What are you working on right now that you're having fun with?

SPEAKER_04 2:02

Uh well now I'm trying to, as you know, I'm trying to finish building this new mix room that seemed uh, you know, good on paper. I never really built anything before, so I didn't know a lot of the details and had to get help to do it. I feel like oh kind of want if you do it once, then you know a whole lot more.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

So, you know. Well, that's why it gets expensive, right? You gotta hire somebody who's made all the mistakes that you want to make.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

Yeah. And also Yeah, by the time I'm done with something, I'm like, ah, I could have done that. And I can be more, as we are, very detailed oriented in this process.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

You know, it's kind of there's kind of a parallel to being hired as a mixer, right? You know, you're or as a recording engineer. I mean, you're what you're actually buying isn't some magic sauce that you're putting on it, it's all those years of uh that experience, all of those mistakes that you've made.

SPEAKER_04 2:59

That's very true. That's that's not a bad analogy. And uh yeah, because because sometimes you can go in and build something all wrong and it's great.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

Well, then yeah, the creative process can is a is a whole nother story. It's funny, um uh zoning laws and inspectors don't like uh creativity all that much.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

No, but here I have a good town where that's sort of uh you can basically do what you want as long as you're within the you know basic New York State kind of regulations and um and this is an outbuilding, so it's the requirements are different. And that's town to town. My h town happens to be very good. It's kind of like do whatever you want, and nobody will bother you.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Yeah. That's important for people to consider. You can't just move to your favorite spot on the planet. I know Bryce Goggin had a problem with that. He he bought a church in upstate New York, well, way upstate New York, and put a recording studio in there, and it was all great. It's kind of like, you know, kind of like Dreamland kind of thing, and a chapel and a recording room. And he got nothing but flack from the well, I I don't know the whole story. I only talked to him briefly about it, but he got a lot of flack from the town, and the next thing I knew, well, five or six years later, he's back in Brooklyn. You know, so it wasn't it wasn't able to make it work, but there might have been other reasons why the building might have been a challenge, or getting artists to come all the way out there might have been a problem.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Who knows? Uh, I see. Now, here it's just uh you know, ten feet from the property line and make sure you get the electric inspected, and you know, that's about it, really. Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Well, it's my kind of town. Yeah. No, that's actually I didn't go I didn't grow up all that far from there. Um you're on the other side of the river, but uh, you know, my my hometown was out in in Dutchess County.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

Yeah, some of these other towns, though, I know I've heard it's harder to uh you know allocate the space or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

I think any any town that's got a historic preservation society or a uh uh owner's foundation or you know anything like that where they're where there's an overriding body of homeowners that are gonna control what goes into a an area. Well, you know, it's best to be remote, I guess, if you can. And uh and uh just uh so what was the motivation? I mean, besides the obvious ones, um what was the motivation for building your own room?

SPEAKER_04 5:17

Uh I always wanted it. When I moved to this house, it's been fifteen years ago, there's no room in the house. I always wanted uh I always wanted kind of like a garage with a studio up above, but just never got around to it. I guess partly for a good reason. I was just very busy and then uh was always renting space. As you know, we had some shared uh area before and uh down in 44th Street.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

And yeah, I had a I had a spare room and a mastering facility back then, and we we knew each other and you you kind of loaded your your mobile gear in there and took up residence for a while. That was that was a nice uh that was a pretty good time. It's challenging for me. I was trying to run two or three businesses at the same time and challenging not go insane.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Yeah, you were you were very busy. You were running MasterDisc and and had this.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

In hindsight, it was it was too much, but you know, I was I was following a dream. Uh I I don't really regret it. I uh it it took a few years off my life, I suspect, but I don't really regret it.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

But it it was good uh because it was it was one of these situations where it was like an old the old record plan floor, I think, part of it, and where uh five different guys had rooms so you meet good people and interact and uh Yeah, I still talk to the guys, the other guys there once in a while.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

That group was uh it was a neat group. I kind of wish we couldn't have um really kind of launched into uh more of a collaborative, but um Master Disc was a full-time adventure.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

Yeah, and then somebody else bought the building who uh we won't name, but you wanted you would want to get out of there.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yeah, yeah. Things times are the times are changed. Um and uh and it's um pretty difficult to even contemplate having a professional studio in Manhattan anymore. Um that's what eventually drove me out of the area. But um what is um okay, so let's let's get a little bit into your um into your career. What part of your work is mixing and what part's recording and producing? Are there you know, has it been the same through the years? No, no, it varies definitely.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Started off, of course, at as engineering. Um you know, went to school with you and I'm sitting here thinking I could interview you actually. But then I I did an internshop at the workshop in Queens, which was Kevin Kelly owned it, who was a great engineer, great studio owner, just a great guy. And I don't know how long I worked there, three months, six months, but learned a lot, um, not necessarily day-to-day recording things, but just the whole vibe, uh, how sessions were run and whatnot. And he was great. He was great. I really liked working there. And then, you know, then went to the power station. As Scott said, this is stuff you can all look up. But anyway, uh started as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

I wanted to I wanted you to, you know, one of the questions was who were the people that you got, you know, a lot to learn from? So being dropped into the power station uh for everyone else, you know, that became uh the name changed to Avatar, but then changed back to the power station, and now it's it's owned by Berkeley School of Music. But um tell us some tales. What was the day like at the power station back then in the heyday?

SPEAKER_04 8:33

Well, it was fantastic because they had they had three different rooms. I'm a little surprised I didn't really know more about the studio because records I liked have been made there, but it was slightly on the newer side still.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

But uh You're you're kind of a little bit like me. We were so I I feel like we were a similar I was so focused on doing it. I I I I didn't focus a whole lot on I I feel like I was just kind of dropped into the world at MasterDisc. And that's just been the history ever since. But um Alright, so pick one, one of the producers you like to work with and describe a day. I mean, this is kind of the whole point of this, is I I'd I even I'm curious.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

I guess see, early early on it was this was still the mid-80s, so they had three rooms and they they didn't have lockouts. It was so it was two sessions a day in each room, like eleven to seven, and then eight until the middle of the night. So you could have six well-known people working there at one time. Um early sessions for me Oh boy, I have to think. Well, assisting assisted Neil Dorseman on a sting record, nothing like the sun. They had recorded most of it, but they came in for um to do some recording and mixing. And that was excellent. Um I could talk a little about that.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Was he was she producing?

SPEAKER_04 9:58

Neil Neil uh Neil was producing, maybe Neil and Sting Sting together, yeah. And basically this is what I remember the ba the main thing I remember about that, I'll tell you. They came in to do a piano and vocal song. And uh, you know, Sting was gonna sing and he had a pianist with him. Might have been the last song on the record. They already had most of it recorded. They were gonna do that and then go into mixing. So I don't know, it's 11 o'clock session or something. I get there, who knows, 10 o'clock, I got everything set up. Not a complicated setup. We check it all, it's working. Sting and and uh the pianists roll in at some point, and they're just hanging out, chilling for a bit. And I don't know, at some point he's like, Well, should we get some lunch? And everybody's like, Yeah, let's get lunch. And I'm thinking, Lunch? Aren't we gonna record this thing? What are we doing? So they get some lunch, and like another hour goes by, and whatever, and finally around one o'clock, Sting is like, Well, should we try this thing? I'm like, Oh man, yeah, can we please try this thing? I I was sort of impatient, as you can tell. It's like, yeah, I want to work, you know, I'm there to work. And uh so they go out to do this song. Twenty minutes later it's done. And that was that. And I I learned something that day because I've been working with a lot of people, famous, not famous, whatever, and everybody was sort of I was gonna say banging their heads against the wall. Not exactly, but feeling they had to use like every minute of studio time, overthinking, over processing everything, you know, overdubbing. One of the things that used to make me the most crazy was we get a rhythm track and then the guitarist player says, Okay, now let me do my part. And I'm always like, You just did your part. There's nothing wrong with your part. But you know, I we you feel you want and this is pre-pro tools, but you feel you want to go in and make things better. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. So that's where I guess I learned a lot watching musicians, actually. And I got to work with a lot of great musicians. So just watching their process and how how they would work. And some guys would be like, Yeah, uh no, I nailed it. You know, I don't re I'll do another part or something. But the thing with Sting was I learned, okay, he did it when he was in the mood, he when he was ready, and it was done. It was it was a performance. You know, he didn't say, Okay, let me redo my vocal or something. That that was it. Now that song lent itself to that, but um if you're recording with a band who has a separate singer, you know, a lot of times you can get takes that way. Or a lot of those early takes are great. So you can you can never underestimate. I think I think nowadays things feel more piecemeal a lot of the time. Although I'm lucky to work with bands that go in and uh just do the whole thing basically. But uh anyway, I'll go on about that. But that was interesting to me.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

I I find it personally very very rewarding to hear because uh I react pretty negatively to the piecemeal um sound of things and and the work that I like to pursue doing is a band in a room recording live, even some of the direct-to-disc and live the two-track stuff that I do is is it's really that's the whole point of capturing that that that performance in the in the space. And you know, you you can really you can really overwork around um the the the music in my opinion. Um where you hear a lot of people I'm gonna resist the temptation to you know to which you know kind of the common speak, which I'll I'll you know deny that I ever said, but you know, that the level of musicianship isn't quite what it used to be, because it that's really it the the musicianship really is there. I think the industry doesn't doesn't care a whole lot and they'll give the uh the title to who whomever can get the most likes and whoever get the uh uh sell the most uh subscription models or or whatever. But I'm go I'm going on this podcast. It's not really about about me, but but I agree with you.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

There's there's no well analog tape analog tape forced you to get performances.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

Yes, and it requ the limitations of those formats actually caused certain things to happen. You know, I'm I often think about it.

SPEAKER_04 14:35

You had you know, you got full performances. And yes, you could fix things, but you know, you weren't cutting everything together, although I read sometimes that some people were.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

A uh um uh a friend, client, guitarist that I'm acquainted with decided that he wanted to kind of dumb his brake down a little bit, and he really liked that concept of recording analog, and he bought a Tascam eight half inch eight track, and he's just gonna limit himself to what he can put on half-inch eight track. And um he's learning that there's a lot of limit a lot of limitations.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

You know, but um but he likes it. He likes it. It's the kind of you know, and the world is actually situated now so you know you don't have to sell, you know, 150,000 records to make it worth doing. You know, if you can find 300 interested souls somewhere on the planet uh that'll listen to your music, um, it's kind of worth doing.

SPEAKER_04 15:32

That's that's one of the good things about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Yeah. I've noticed, and my business has changed dramatically uh in the past ten years or so, um, just because of the way the music business has changed and budgets and work processes and things like that. Um what are your feelings on that? And and then related to that, uh, you know, what do you recommend younger engineer people that are you know learning their process? Like they're they're starting this process that we started 30 plus years ago. They're starting that now. Um, how would you address them regarding their place in the business of music? Uh like how to how to learn the craft, you mean, or how how to how to make a living uh at it is really the uh is really the question that that I think you know anybody can kind of lock themselves in a room and eat peanut butter sandwiches and and just keep doing it until somebody notices. But if you're trying to support yourself and have a life and ultimately buy a house and not be broke your entire life, how do you do that for audio? I mean, I have one thought, you know, a couple of our uh school mate colleagues have went into broadcast and have had you know a a good career doing that. For instance, Jay Willis had been doing, you know, A1 audio his whole career as well as uh as other things. But you know, let me simplify the question. You know, how is the music business dollars and cents of the music business uh change you know, how does that affect you now? And what would you recommend for people starting this?

SPEAKER_04 17:02

I mean, the number one thing I always would say would be live beneath your means. And that's for that's for any business, I think, when you're trying to get anywhere. But and seriously, you know, learn how to save money and or how to invest what you have. But also because nobody ever taught me any of that.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

And even my parents, they taught me how to spend money.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

And uh the other thing is think about what you really enjoy and you think you might really be good at. It could be all of it. It could be recording, mixing, writing, producing, songwriting, performing, whatever that is, but focus on what you you know really want to do. And then you do have to start finding clients. Like if if you're an engineer, um you gotta start finding clients, and if you can get to a point where you get one good client, then they can kind of keep you going, whatever that work is. And if it's work you're not crazy about, but you can tolerate, then then you can do that while also finding other clients. Sort of like, you know, a day job thing. Or some people think they don't want to go into I don't know, I don't want to go into commercials or I don't want to go into something, but it it's not really like that, because you're just making music. So you're not do you know what I mean? You're not uh caught up in it all. I don't know. I haven't really thought about it.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

No, I I think I got what you're saying. Uh even even like a management job or a desk job uh at a s at a studio or an assistant for a road manager or uh on a road team for you know, th there's a lot of non-pro audio jobs that are part of the music business. Uh research for social media that's going into new releases on uh independent, you know, they they're always looking for people to do but these aren't aren't the jobs. Yeah, like uh Otis Redding was the driver or something, right? I'm sure. I'm sure. I mean we're we're you know we're standing on the shoulders of everyone else that had figured this stuff out.

SPEAKER_04 19:09

But what I I was also gonna say, if you can, you know, if you can get a couple of good clients that you can alternate with, that helps too. Um but yeah, it's tricky.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

So how long were you at the power station?

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Uh I just looked that up to s in case you asked me that. I think six years. So I started as a runner answering phones, which was a great experience. And there was a guy, Jeffrey Glenn, at the desk, who everybody knows who really he really trained us all how to how to interact with clients.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

I want to pause and and linger on that comment because I really related to what you said. I was a runner answering phones, and it was a lot of fun. Okay. That's not what the people that's not what the current graduates of a program generally say when you give them an entry-level job. Uh it's it's kind of like, oh Jesus. And oh, but I've had I've had interns here with the studio that really enjoyed just being here and contributing. And so I think it's really important for them to if you get an opportunity, and the the only opportunity is to slave over uh social media posts all day, but you do get like 10 minutes a day to interact with the star or the owner of the studio or the manager or the producer, um you know, drink it all in, drink it all in and be really uh really excited. I'll let you continue, but I just wanted to emphasize that it was a quote unquote crappy entry-level job, but y you enjoyed it, you know, and you yet you did it with enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

Oh, yeah. Oh, it was fantastic. It was minimum wage, but you were in a place, you know, I was in a place that was making records you would know, you know, records I would buy.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

We're gonna let you drop some names here of the first couple, three years of power station. Just name some people that run off the top of your head that that were in the studio that Yeah, I don't really care that you got credit on them or not, but who was at the power station?

SPEAKER_04 21:09

Oh, there were There were a lot, I guess, you know. I have to I have to think 'cause uh I don't know over the time, but Sting, like I told you, and and Neil was there. He was working on making movies, the Dire Straits Record, doing some mixing. Um I remember David Lee Roth coming into cut California Girls in Studio A. And uh, you know, with Ted Templeman, who I was a fan of. And so I was on the desk then, a little interaction with Ted, but yeah, I got a I caught what his whole vibe was, kinda. Even not being on the session, you can kind of catch things, how people interact with each other. Uh Roger Hodgshin, who I'm a big fan of from Supertramp, was there. Yeah. And a bunch of other stuff. And then and then a big one that I got to work on was Eric Clapton, who came. In and he was making the Journeyman record with Russ Titelman producing, and they had already done a lot of it. I came in more near the end because they needed a a fresh face. And and it was great. The first day we're doing a guitar solo. You know, it's like I was a big I was a big Clapton fan, I will say. And you know, you never know how these things are gonna go. But I at that point, I wasn't hugely experienced, but I was comfortable. He comes to do a solo. I go out in the room to listen to his amp, and he has it pretty loud. I'm like, okay, he's doing one of these. So I put a a close mic on it, I put a far room mic on it and compress compress it a lot. Go back in the control room and set that up. He so he walks into play, and after playing for I don't know, ten or twenty or thirty seconds, he just says, That sounds fantastic. And that was all I needed. That right there made everything I had done so far worth it. Cause I guess, you know, it's the behind the glass thing, you know. I want to be behind the glass. But I want the people who I always wanted the people who were the artists to to respect what I do or appreciate it. And that was a moment that did that. There was another great moment with him where I think it's I think it was a song called Breaking Point, where he's gonna do a a Wawa. You know, they have a Wawa Lee, his tech has this Wawa sound set up for the day, and he comes in and messes around with it. It's like, okay, let's run the tape. We run the tape, he plays Wawa down through the song, and he puts the guitar down and comes in. I'm thinking, ah, he's gonna say, yeah, he doesn't he doesn't like it, he doesn't want to do it. And he comes in and goes, Okay, what's next? I was like, Really? You're gonna do one take? I'm like, yeah, this this that this is it. And that's a thing of people like that who that's how they learned was okay, this is what I do, uh, you know, this is what I do, I played it. You know, if he wants something different, he'll do it. But he was happy with what he just did. If he hadn't been happy, he would have gone back out and done it again. Um so it's kind of like that. And that's that's what I remember a lot from tracking with bands. That's about the most fun time. Uh cutting basic tracks with a full band. It's like doing, you know, you do it with an orchestra, same thing. It's it's about as fun as it can get. You're pretty much hearing the whole record. And it's more responsibility, more pressure kind of, but but it's not really about that. It's about just enjoying the music. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

For the listeners, how many mics would you have out open on a on a band date at the power station? Um Rough Guess. Was this was this twelve twelve mic session or tw or thirty mic session or for like a a rock and roll band, you mean?

SPEAKER_04 25:04

Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna say at least two dozen, it feels like. Um not crazy, but that's if a full band. I'm just thinking, uh, do I get up to Fader 24? Probably. But that could include talkbacks, vocal, you know, scratch vocals. Yeah, you know, yeah. Drums that ke as you know kept expanding. The thing about Power Station was all the uh all the tube mics were rentals, and some people didn't want to rent those. So we basically used cheap mics and then 87s. They had a gazillion of the original 87s, which got used a lot. Sort of the opposite of uh the magic shop and uh and uh or L you go out to LA and everything's tubes. I'm like, wow, this is fantastic. But it worked, and it was a real New York thing. It was it was the the New York minute was true, you know. You read all these stories, we took a week to get drum sounds, and we spent the day on this, you know. Even with a an album with a budget, you got you if you don't have drum sounds in 15 minutes, everybody's like looking, looking in at you, like thinking, who else can we get? It's like what what's the problem? So speed was definitely a thing, and that that probably filtered down from Tony Bon Jovi, who who was like that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Get it done.

SPEAKER_04 26:28

Yeah, it's like quick.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

What's uh for for the vinyl listeners, what's your uh what's your career and what's your personal relationship with vinyl? What uh well I'll just leave it at that simple question.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Well, I love vinyl still, and it's still more fun to listen to. I I think I pay attention more, and I I kind of wonder is it because I'm worried about the needle getting ruined at the end of the record.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

I want to make sure I want to make sure I catch it.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

That's always uh the back there. But and you're not you can't skip around. I mean you can, but you put you put it on, you hear side A, and what somebody presented to you. I mean, uh you know, I love that I can skip around on other stuff and make my own playlists, but I guess everybody thought differently back then too.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

I've started a thing on my my streaming if I'm listening to music casually, I resist the temptation to go to you know song by song streaming and and I look up albums and play album sides because it it just feels right to me. I I mean this is what I I've done for 30 years is work on albums. So it's everything else feels like a radio station. Right. And uh I enjoyed the I just uh can't buy a thrill. Uh it was what I was listening to just a few days ago and and uh just played the whole side. But played, we actually played both sides back to back. And it was, you know, great songs after one after another, but if if I went to choose which songs I'd want to listen to, I probably would have skipped you know two of those tracks because they weren't on my now top ten list or something. But um do your current projects um are uh how do you interact with uh you know vinyl um as a producer?

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Actually, um and I was gonna say I still sequence like it's vinyl. I still think side A and side B. Um but yeah, actually if you're doing well, if you're doing with the legacy artists with a budget, they're gonna do vinyl. But uh then the younger artists are also cutting vinyl. I produced this um singer in Nashville, Lindsay Liu, who I who I really like, and we made an album and she wanted some CDs, but she also wanted vinyl because uh her, you know, her fans want the vinyl, and business-wise, that's a better thing because sh she can make a little more money on the merch table selling selling vinyl. And that's true for all a lot of independent independent bands I talk to. It's not like they have to sell gazillions of them, but enough to have a bit more income. That's kind of where it's at with the whole indie scene, is you've got to do shows, you have your merch, you know, and um sell vinyl or sell bandcamp, you know. It's like you don't need to be a gazillionaire, you just want to make enough to be able to keep doing it. Yeah, it's a great touring. It's not easy. It's not easy because touring can be expensive depending on how big your group is.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

And so and that's important. Some of the stuff doesn't scale all this well all that well. You know, you scale it back to the van, um, you know, and now you're just you know four people running around in a van from town to town. But it would scale better if if it was, you know, two buses and a small tour, you know, doing four cities, you know, on a bigger stage. I think everybody'd get get paid more and there'd be more opportunities to sell merch.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

But it's hard to hard to book that now though. It's kind of like up to the artist to bring the the uh the the fans to the show, you know. It's hard to book a gig. They want to know how many people you're gonna bring. I mean it's always that way to a degree, but you know, it's it's just tough. There's different uh obviously there's different levels of this. And obviously albums don't sell like they used to. It's not as much as a money-making thing, but they're still great to have, and it can kind of work the other way. It can support a band that does tour to have new music, you know, because fans love it.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

I noticed that album prices have uh like everything else, uh you know, so we're recording this at the beginning of 2025, and you know, uh cost of living's been going up uh for the past few years, and and um uh just ran through a record store around Christmas time and I was a little had a little sticker shock. Uh all the new vinyls probably five dollars to ten dollars more per piece than it was, you know, just a year, a little over a year ago. Yeah, no, that's true.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

What are they making that in Canada? But and we're kind of around the edges of this discussion. I'm sure people listening could add a lot of insightful comments, but uh you know, we're we're not trying to get to the heart of it.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

It's just it's more of just an observation. We're not really driving the bus, we're just you know sitting in the th second to back row and and kind of watching the scenery go by.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

But uh people people learn to appreciate you know, they said people were buying vinyl who didn't even have record players, because it's a nice thing. You know, I'd rather you know, it's a nice thing to have, like like a t-shirt they want or something.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Right, right. Well, you've seen the memes. I mean, it's something like ten to thirty thousand streams equals the same profit to an artist as buying as selling one record. Um it's not because the record's so expensive, it's just the the stream is so inexpensive.

SPEAKER_04 32:07

We could all go off on how wrong that is, but um well I'm I'm doing my little bit to try to change it.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

I'm I'm actually gonna release my first Master Disc Records vinyl before the summer. We've got an artist in and did a um live in the studio, live the two-track um recording, just a song singer-songwriter guy. Very nice. But uh they'll you know, follow this podcast and we'll have more information and and some pre-release stuff happening. So uh finally, you know, how many years does it take you to get a studio built? You know, it's it's taken me about the same number of decades to get my my uh music label off the off the ground. But uh you know, it's kind of like off the ground, like I s I'm standing on the stoop, you know, and I'm flopping my wings trying to, you know, I I'm gonna jump down to the to the sidewalk. That's how far off the ground I've got this thing. Awesome.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

That's good though. As long as you're standing when you hit the sidewalk. Right, right, right. Um well that's what people say about tour touring is like we we just don't want to lose money, you know. We want to at least break even.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

For real. Yeah. I know it it is kind of silly. Um, we both saw it in the heydays where labels and producers and artists were were and studio owners were were really making a lot of money, but um there was also a lot of risk and there was a lot of failure, you know, and all of that. Um you know, studios that went bad and and labels that you know uh didn't uh didn't make the right turns and things like that. So um uh I've got a couple questions that I think might be uh illustrative. You you you talked about some of your studio work. Um have you ever gone into a situation where you really didn't know you you really hadn't been given instruction on what to do, but you just kind of you knew enough that you figured you know you'd figured it out. Do you feel like this all the time?

SPEAKER_04 34:04

Uh there's a degree of that. I I think about this. I ha I have no template really, um, I realize. And I always think, like, even for mixing, I should make a mixing template. But I don't I guess I don't work that way. I listen to it all and then I react kinda, and then I get an idea of what I want it to be. And even even working with James Taylor, uh you you kind of know in the end what you're gonna have or what it's gonna sound like, and you know what his voice sounds like. But like I did uh several records with him, and they all sound different, which that's intentional. Um not drastically. It's not like he's doing different styles, it's all his style, but I don't know if I'm touching on what you asked, but that's exactly what I was asking about.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

What how did were there decisions made or discussions had at the beginning of the session? Like we want to do this differently or that differently, or or did they just uh organically evolve?

SPEAKER_04 35:05

That would just more be the overall of how are we, you know, do we start with the band and you know what who's gonna play and this, that, and the other. Uh it's more a j a general thing, not any specific And then we could talk through the setup, but not not specific sound stuff. James is very interested in all that, but and he'll ask a lot of questions, but but um he more just would let me guide that because he he trusts that it's gonna be good, uh first mistake. And then uh and then just let things roll along and you know adapt as we go.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

I uh I I'm gonna interject a little uh thing that relates to to the work I do. Um it's it's seems to be fairly typical these days for independent and and DIY kind of uh artists and producers to feel they need to um manage the process, maybe the same way they manage the recording or the mixing. Um so they're sending me a song to master and then they want to give me an alternate mix, they want this, the those, they give me instructions, they tell me a bunch of stuff about it, and I I alm I really feel like I uh they're not quite getting the point of mastering. I'm providing an authentic, uh unabashed uh opinion, as if I'd never heard the song before, because I I haven't. Right. And so if you try to manage the process, but the reason I bring it up is because it reminds me, what you said reminded me of that he knows it's gonna turn out well, he can not focus on all those things and just focus on his performance. Um maybe similar to what you described with Sting, where they just, you know He was kind of waiting for the energy in the room to be right and and uh was gonna trust that it was gonna get captured.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

Yeah. Yeah. Uh you know, James in particular, he's he's a smart guy, he'll look at stuff and understand it, and he'll ask things, you know, what sample rate are we going at? And he'll he'll want d some technical details because he's technically oriented in some level. Um but overall it's like he he sort of gathers a team, you know, that's gonna be great. But but for me sonically, I don't think, okay, what did I do the last record? Let me set it up exactly the same. I'm almost more like, okay, what can I do different now? And occasionally it's different on different things. When you're producing in some ways it's less stressful because you can just make the decisions. And uh uh rather than trying to guess what somebody wants or or b have something and someone change their mind about it. But I also learned over time don't wait for people to tell you what they want. Uh just go ahead and go ahead and do it and you know, and then they'll let you know. Uh gener generally pretty much everything's gonna be okay, you know, unless there's some specific uh request or microphone or setup they want to do.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Right. And oftentimes that comes with such predetermined outcomes that may not actually be reality. Like the last time they used an uh 67, it sounded like crap, and so they're never wanting they you they see a 67 on the stand, they're not gonna like it.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Yeah, it's like going to a bad restaurant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

You're expecting uh a particular outcome. I I think that's why we're from the generation where you know we we were expected to to really have these great engineering jobs. That's true. That's true. Like we really like it when people trust us to do the work that we do. Yeah. And that's actually the jobs that we would we seek are the ones where we're given not control but but responsibility.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

It's true, and like a friend a friend told me once. Uh it's like if you're recording an analog tape and you're doing punch-ins and whatever. Uh this happened to me. Once somebody learned I was pretty good at it, they ask you to start doing more, like punching vocals, punching words, you know, and you'd always be afraid of what we call the haircut, where you just start taking too much off. And then, you know, it's like, can you get that word in the middle of the sentence? And like, really? But the studer Studer A800 was a great machine to punch on. But uh, you know, you do that a lot. But like a friend of mine says, you could do you had to hit a home run every time out because the artist could could kind of do it wrong all day, but you couldn't. You make one bad punch and they get mad at you. I said, Well, that's kind of true, but that's the job. That that didn't necessarily bother me. But but I will tell you, one time I was working on a session, we were doing long days, and the guys in the band were doing these backgrounds, and they might have been partying a little, and it was late at night, and they're singing the the tag harmony part, and it's not sounding any different each time, they just want to keep doing it. It's one of those things. And at some point, you know, I punch in and I think I fell asleep, you know. It was like it was like we were on uh robotics, you know, we it was auto punch kind of thing. And didn't punch out quite in time. And of course they knew right away. It's like, ah, what happened? What what so the pro producer covered me, of course, by saying, uh, he just fell asleep in the middle of it. It's like what but needless to say, they didn't do too many more takes and they were very happy. But that was a one-time thing where I uh was like, oh my god, that did happen. Yeah, it was like, you know, 20 minutes of trying to get one line or something, and that never happens, but there, you now you know.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

What does the producer do in in a project? And I think this actually changes somewhat with generations. I think um modern uh songwriters and performers, you know, have a different meaning for that. But what's your answer to that question? What does the producer do?

SPEAKER_04 41:59

How many light bulbs does it take? Um, turn on a guitar player. The the uh the um it's a role that it it depends on who the producer is. It it's varied. So of course there's a uh let's say an old old timey role of it could have been somebody who it it probably grew out of A and R, people pick you know, picking songs and then picking arrangers and picking musicians and whatnot. So uh it grows into that. So you know it's different things. They can be the person they can just be the person who puts it all together and um uh organizes everything. But in general in in records, it's a person who oversees it musically and and technically, you know. And boy, that's such a wide open question. It could be somebody who just guides things, it could be somebody who hires all the musicians, like if it's a solo artist, they say, These are the musicians we should get, these are the songs you should do, and then go in and record them and you know hire the studio and the engineer and guide guide all that and make a lot of creative choices. If it's a band, then the band has a sound already, so it's somebody they they either want to capture their sound and help them achieve the best they can. Basically, that's what I would say anyway, is it's it's your job is to get the best that you can out of the artist. Make put them make them look their best. But it varies um directly with what it is. It's like some guy some producers are more musical. A lot of musicians are producers and are very good at it because they grew out of the M D role, say, or they can write arrangements and put put things together and uh but some musicians they don't want to do that. They just wanna be the guitar player, you know, and and do what they do. It It just varies. You do see engineers getting into it because as the process took a lot longer and it became, you know, from a three-hour session to do a song to two years to make an album, it's the engineer who's there every day who knows it's like you know more than anybody on those kind of records. You know where what what where everything was done and how it was done and why it was done. And um so if you have an inclination to it, you can become a producer.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

Yeah, I've even seen situations, uh a couple notable ones where the hired the label hired a mix engineer to uh uh arrive at the sound. Maybe they they feel like the original tracks, you know, didn't necessarily or whatever. They just they hired a mixed engineer, you know, to achieve a result, and then that mix engineer ends up almost producing, having more of a producing role than the producer. The producer got the original project started, but then the label, you know, wants to invoke uh some control and and direction, and it's sometimes easier to do that by hiring uh another person to uh to take that role.

SPEAKER_04 45:16

Yeah, I agree with you on that. And there's certainly a limited amount you can do unless you're gonna redo everything. But that's part of mixing too, is you're expected. We were talking about this earlier, we almost got to it. When you're talking about mastering, you're expected to um do something, you know, make this all more interesting and sound better. And uh people have different ideas of how much they want to change it or what they want in particular, or they just need to hear something and then can comment on it. But you definitely will bring something to it, not unlike a producer in terms of mold molding the sound a bit or whatever. It's like, you know, it's like um can't can't talk at at all without mentioning Bob Clearmountain, who I was I was gonna say, I was right on the tip of my tongue.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

I wasn't gonna say specifically Bob, but I feel like we if we were gonna talk about the role of the producer, it might actually be easier to explain how individuals that you've worked with how they produce and what you would um uh I I've seen uh you know over the years maybe hundreds of producers come through the studio and and they all interacted with the process and the artist and the label a little differently. Um some had a very much a very consistent method of operations, and some of the producers even that I worked with were would be different depending on who they were producing. Yes, um the best example of that was um I watched uh uh Butch Vig uh bring in uh Nirvana's Nevermind, and then on another record, only uh a few years different from that, uh the singer-songwriter Friedi Johnston that he produced, and he did a masterful job with with Friedi's record, but he was a different producer in that role. Um he was really guiding and controlling and shepherding that project in a way that I I think you know the label and the artist um you know were doing uh much more so for for for the Nirvana record. Now clearly they're very, very different records, but so uh what's you know, let's talk about Bob or one of the other producers that you've that you've worked with. How did how did they approach that question?

SPEAKER_04 47:38

Well, you're just reminding me that a lot of it has to do, particularly if it's a newer artist guiding sort of what you think they sh should be, so to speak. You know what I mean? Right. You know, if you're gonna work with an established band, they already have something. It's almost well, easier is the wrong word, simpler, I guess, or it's a known entity. When you're working with newer artists who are trying to break through, you gotta you gotta help them first of all, you gotta see if they have a vision. Cause and see see what they see what's there, and then you work with them to bring that forward. So it's a it's a it's that's part of the process, you know, molding, kinda not molding them, but molding whatever this project's gonna be. No, I was mentioning Bob because as a producer you can hire him to mix your record because you know he's gonna do a great job and he's he's pretty much gonna bring out whatever you put on there as well as can be brought out. And um, you know, the whole mixing engineer thing, which he was one of the early big ones, became something that became a big part of the record making process and still is, you know, the guys who just do mixing because they get a certain sound. Um I've I've always been a fan of the oh, you know, one engineer to do to track it and mix it like more old school or more I this is what I think of organic kind of way. But I'm not opposed to you know, somebody else mixing things and I enjoy mixing uh things I didn't record if they're recorded well anyway. But uh uh I guess different producers work differently. It's all and a lot of it is is all just interacting with the artist and it's it's a uh intricate relationship, you know, as everybody knows. It's not just the music, it's everything. But you know, some producers will say this is, you know, they'll write the arrangement or they'll say this is what we're gonna do and you do it. And other others are a little more um, you know, make sure everybody's happy and fed well and everyone can do their job well. And okay, artists, are you happy? Do you know what I mean? A little less hands-on kinda. Then that would be less of a music musician type producer.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Um Yeah, there there's a huge you know, you get into uh uh Daniel and Wauer uh kind of deep into the creation and the sonic landscape and even what type of equipment they're gonna use. And it's it's really entirely different from you know someone who's that's a collaborative artistic process, kind of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

You want him to create.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

No, I well I asked the question because it it is a very confused topic, and I and I think today there's there's a a bit of an oversimplification that the producer is you know the person who's going to have the biggest share in the ownership of and the business of the product. And and a lot of the uh creation and the coordination and the understanding of the process is kind of is kind of missing uh uh uh in their role.

SPEAKER_04 51:05

Like the modern, newer stuff, the producers are more people who are making you know, they could be programmers and writers and more part of the the group, so to speak, especially with all the solo artists who are popular. That's that's a bit of a different thing where they'll they're just putting the tracks together themselves, kinda. I guess all my talk has been about working with, you know, live musicians for the most part.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

Session producers at rest of song as the song producers. Yeah, it's a lot of things. But that's part of the problem. The name, the word itself has so many m meanings implied and not so implied, that it's uh it's hard to say. You you know y this band needs a producer. Well, you know what what do they need a producer for? In some cases you need a producer to remind everyone that it's probably a good idea to carefully tune your instruments before you start a take.

SPEAKER_04 52:00

It could be that simple. I mean, in the classical world, it I think it's sometimes used to mean the person who kept track of what everyone was doing. They're not going to go tell the conductor how to do their job. It's just kind of like make notes of what it all you know, discuss have discussions ahead of time, what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 52:20

Well, the classical producer would have a conversation with the whoever is financing and whoever's gr uh uh grand idea it was to make a record, and then they're I find that that's a very literal translation of the word. They produce, they they make sure it gets built. It's like uh you know, an architect doesn't produce a house. You know, the contr a general contractor is kind of the producer of the house. You know. The architect is you know, is is just one of the uh professionals that's employed to make sure it doesn't fall down after it's built.

SPEAKER_04 52:56

Yeah. Absolutely. And uh Yeah, it's just such a varied role. And you may it's it's absolutely you make it what it is in all these roles, you know. In any of these roles. As a guitarist, an engineer, as a uh whatever you're doing, it's whatever you bring to it.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

I I kind of wish there wouldn't be uh an apprehension about it, but I think that's just from uh opportunists, you know, through the years saying, you know, stick with me, kid, I'll make you a star. I guess if you really could, if it were really that easy, then you we wouldn't feel so you wouldn't question giving up a a part of your royalties to the uh to the producer, but it's not that easy these days. The the artist pretty much has to make their career happen themselves. They have to be available, they have to be on social, they have to tour, they have to they have to communicate with their fans in in one way or another. They it's it's all it's not just showing up. No, it's true.

SPEAKER_04 53:56

It's true. You can make the greatest recording a fantastic album, but uh if no one hears it, you're you know, that's the that I mean that was always the case, but there was also a lot less being released. And pretty much everything had some kind of pipeline to go through. You know, you had to get you had to do certain steps to get there.

SPEAKER_03 54:19

There was there was a big gatekeeper, uh, you know, that that so a lot of records didn't get made because you didn't get past the gatekeeper. Now now everybody can make a record, but uh a much smaller number of records become you know sensational. Um because the gatekeeper is now you know like somewhere between uh social media and uh tour support. That's that's kind of where the gatekeeper is. If you if you've got uh a tour and you know amazing, you know, commercial and social media uh connections, then you know, you've gotten to pass that gatekeeper, I suspect. New technology. Uh how much of it matters to you? Are you doing mixes for immersive?

SPEAKER_04 55:00

I've done some, but I've paused it for a bit because I want to I want to finish this new room, which should be done in a month, and and work there. But it's very interesting. It's also very frustrating, but I do think.

SPEAKER_03 55:17

What's the frustrating part?

SPEAKER_04 55:18

Uh there's some technical is uh there's a learning curve which isn't so bad, but then I was sort of worried the curve keeps changing. The idea of Apple having their own codec is drive drove everyone nuts. And um just lear learning curve of how to make it work to your satisfaction because you got so many options. I mean, listening to a well done Atmos mix is uh is quite a treat, you know. If you're in a room that that is set up that way. Uh the idea that you're doing all this and people are just listening on earbuds is less uh less interesting to me. But that's a reality because um a lot of people don't have these at most setups. I kinda always thought Surround would do okay when the the TV soundbars and all that came in and the wireless speakers and people never had things set up on their home correctly, but a lot of people try to, and you know, so for watching movies they have that. I always thought, well, okay, then you can listen to some music in Surround, you know, even if it was 5.1, because they'll have the the uh material for it. But it never the this the monitor, the speakers for it, but it never really took off that way, um as far as I know. And everything seems geared toward earbuds a lot or headphones a lot.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

Yeah, the well the current technology is supposed to work on, you know headphones and um at least uh to to some degree. I I think there's personally I think there's some great applications for th for theater and for for film and for games and things. I I'm a little I'm I'm less optimistic about its use in you know delivering typical songs uh over typical formats.

SPEAKER_04 57:10

But well, we're used to high fidelity and you know the earbud thing, you you can do a mix that sounds great on headphones. But when you spread it, you know, the whole Atmos thing with uh to me, it's the this the you having the speakers, it just feels so much better.

SPEAKER_03 57:29

I've got a future podcast coming with a um immersive uh content producer mixer um where where we talk about this uh thing uh uh in a little more detail. And what I th I I I had the same concept, uh same thoughts back when um uh surround was happening because we were building surround uh mastering rooms at MasterDisc um uh you know uh uh in the 90s. And um it was um when the artist started to create, or as soon as the artist would start to create art for that format, then I think we we had something worth talking about. But when you're just trying to reposition something that's already out and repurpose it um for for a multi-channel atmosphere, it's not as compelling. We'll see.

SPEAKER_04 58:20

There's truth in that, but the but a lot of recordings over the last 50 years have so much multi-track information that you're able to do it. Right. Um of course now with the AI um splitting out stems, you know, you can do that. Incidentally, the bit I've done, I haven't really wanted to use stems. I just prefer to have the original multitrack.

SPEAKER_03 58:48

That makes a lot of sense from a from a mixer standpoint as opposed to a just another version of remastering. Um stems repurposed into immersive sounds an awful lot like remastering a stereo mix, you know, for a new format that I've something I've had a lot of experience with.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

Yeah. Yeah. It varies. Some people are good at it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:13

Um I'm gonna jump topics just because we're we're in the the uh the lightning round here. We can edit. Um how do you approach the management and legal contracts and agreements kind of phase of your career?

SPEAKER_04 59:29

What you know um I just had a big internal groan.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

I didn't I thought I heard the I thought I heard so I'd like a gigantic sigh.

SPEAKER_04 59:42

Um Let's see. Well, I have a manager now who who takes care of that. And I discussed with him, you know, what I want and he deals with the client. And it it is good to keep your if you can keep a step removed. But I've also done things where I just speak to the artist. I mean I I d did all mine for myself for a long time. It's difficult, it's always difficult. Um if really you you need a good lawyer if you're gonna do contracts. You just need a good, simple lawyer who doesn't charge a lot, who understands the music business, and can have basically one or two page agreements, not the super legalese thing. Um I mean, look, I remember when I was working with Phil Ramon, we'd be working on a record mixing, and he still wouldn't have his contract done. And I'm just saying that to show that in the world of producers it's always behind the curve. You know, it's the they're always late to get that done. Nobody wants to deal with it. And, you know, they don't want to put we don't want to push so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:54

So there's a sense of you want to you want to develop the content and prove your value and then do the contracts, but sometimes that leads you know you're in a dark alley at that point.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

Any other business in the world, they get the contract signed and then they do the work. Uh well not any not all of them, but that that's what you're supposed to do. Uh it it can be difficult because you want to do the work, but yeah, really you just if you're independent, you just really need a good lawyer to have have a basic thing. It doesn't it doesn't really change a lot project to project, you know, and um you should have an understanding of what it is yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

It's not complicated to you know, it can be, but it doesn't have to be well well a good lawyer would be able to explain this this in simple terms to you, you know, what your options are and and and what you should be looking for and things like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:50

But you Yeah, but they need to understand the modern music business and how what the flow flow of things is.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:56

No, your typical real estate lawyer doesn't have a he really has no idea how to go about this. Is that what you is that answering your question? Uh yeah, no, it really is. Um do you mind sharing what what's a range uh you don't have to divulge what your manager is at take is, but what does a typical manager um require in compensation, you know, to be involved with a professional mix engineer?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:20

Aaron Powell I was also gonna add a good manager you don't necessarily need a lawyer, because a good manager will have the all those agreements anyway and understand them and be ex able to explain them to you. So you don't always need both. Um what's the range of a manager's compensation?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:37

Generally for producers, it's I will say it's fifteen percent.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:42

Oh that's a big chunk.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:43

Uh for artists it's I think twenty percent. And then but you can make any agreement you want, and you can see if they'll do it for five or ten. You know, it's wide open. Uh over the years it was customarily fifteen.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

So and for that fifteen percent, are they finding you some aspects of work? Um are you relying on on them to uh help cultivate?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:09

That's much harder than it used to be because even they say the that world has changed from what it used to be. Th there used to be AR people would call up producer managers and have projects they'd run by them, but th th that's kind of a gone gone away for the most part.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:28

Aaron Powell Okay. So you're still it's still responsibility of the uh of the producer engineer to um to cultivate the contacts and c you know connections and and everybody's out like um And that works better for me anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

I like meeting people and talking to people. You know.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

A uh music industry lawyer told me one point and I I finally got my head wrapped around it when they said, you know, if someone's really having trouble with you when you ask for a contract, this is that same person who's gonna be a real big pain in the neck later if you don't have a contract. There if you can't come to an agreement, it's just that's kind of it's like a praying up on a small nature. It's if you can't come to an agreement on some of these details before you start, it's gonna be even harder to come to an agreement on those details after you've begun, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:26

Yeah. No, you wanna let if you're gonna work in a business arrangement with someone, you wanna lay it all out, uh every detail and any questions you have ahead of time. And things may come up as they go, but don't you know, just get right to it with that. It's not complicated. It's people worry, but it's not.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:46

It's really good advice. I wish I I wish I could take my my own good advice on that. I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:50

I have a lot of good advice I don't take. Part of being human.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:57

Yeah. Yeah. Well, part of being reflective and self-analyzing and you know, hopefully not self-deprecating, but uh, you know, wanting improve and want to move forward.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:07

None of this gets taught sorted. You know what I mean? The whole business side. You know, I had a great time at Power Station, didn't know one thing about what was going on business-wise at all. But I learned the craft and I learned a bunch of stuff, and everything else comes later.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:23

It reminded me of one of my uh early moments at uh as an intern and an assistant at MasterDisc, and this was uh eighty seven or eighty-eight. There was a uh label executive that was uh there for a session, and he had left the session to go out into the common area to talk, and he was talking business um with someone. I don't know who he was on the other end of the line, but the even just one half of the conversation was so interesting to me. I like stayed within earshot of him uh talking on the phone. You know, this was before. Cell phones, so he actually had to go to a place. I had no door that he could go to. So he's literally in the kitchen having this conversation about tour support or about you know who's going to pay for what. And I just found it so interesting. I I couldn't pull myself away from it. And then at one point he actually turns around and notices that I'm not I haven't left the room yet. And it's like, excuse me. And I'm like, oh, kind of like you're falling asleep at the wheels the moment. I I had totally forgot the decorum uh of the situation. I was just so so interested to learn what they were talking about. I was I was intra I was uh I was entranced and I was like, oh I'm really sorry. I I should uh obviously should not have been easy jumping on your conversation.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:49

Uh yeah, you were you got you were in the in the zone, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:53

I was there. I was I wanted to be doing that so bad. I was just like a Facebook uh with my face pressed against the window, you know, trying to trying to see in. Um and if and if the listeners are students of of this sort of stuff and they want to take anything away from from Dave, it's it's you know, go for it. Um our our mutual uh educator there at Fredonia would would have said the same thing. Just it'll be fine. Just go for it, you know, put all your effort into it and uh and think great things great things can happen. Yeah. What is uh what are some things you still want to do? Um you get your studio open, but what's uh what's on the next uh what's on the next uh five-year plan for Dave?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:37

I would like to do some good at most mixing, you know. Um and and regular stereo mixing, because this is gonna be set up as a hopefully the best mix room I've ever had. And I still like doing production. Uh I have a project coming up in a few weeks of uh independent artist, plays acoustic guitar, hired hired a band, and you know, we're gonna do some tracking down in Brooklyn, and I'm really looking forward to that. I still just love music and love working with good music and people are still writing interesting things. Um occasionally uh I'll say occasionally I look at the more pop world. I've done a couple of independent productions that started with loops and then we added, you know, overdub things on top of them. But in general, to d I like doing that with the people in the room. I uh you know, maybe I'll find a loop that I like that I think will work for the song at a time. But then collaborate on the overdubs. Even if I have an idea, something to play just do it with a group you know, with the artist and or other musicians. Just to kind of have a feeling that it is, you know, more like a band playing than one guy in a room programming or overdubbing. So that can be very enjoyable, but uh most of my experience is working with bands, and that could mean a studio band, but you know, I mean a group of musicians in a room playing together. And I just love working with bands. You know, I just love it. It's it's just more exciting and it's a living, breathing thing and it's a different kind of creative energy, but I guess I'd like to continue that. You know. Um the the big long projects aren't so much anymore where somebody books three months in a studio or something. That doesn't happen. If anything, they'll book two weeks and say, okay, we'll cut some tracks and then we'll think about when we're gonna record again. You know, so it's just a different world in that regard. Um but still there's I meet people all the time who are newer, younger, very talented musicians. And they're very good. I mean, in in a sense, they've learned they were able to learn a lot having the internet and be able be getting access to everything, hearing stuff, hearing, you know, whatever it is, whatever artist you like, and be able to break things down more than we ever could, because you were just had to play the vinyl again. You know, it's like people would s slow down the vinyl to trying to learn a guitar lick or something. Now you can almost pretty much solo it and learn it, but um but it's it as with anything, it's more about the curiosity than the technology. It's how driven is somebody to want to do something. Like you were talking about earlier, in some regard. Yeah. It's just how driven are you to want to do it. But I I still love uh I still love recording and mixing and all that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:55

We um we have a plan coming shortly to bring you uh uh uh bring you into the video realm and do uh do a uh a master class with you as a mix engineer. Um hopefully I haven't turned you off on that idea yet. No, I would like to do that. We'll give it a shot and see how it goes. But uh I would enjoy that. I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. Uh I expect it to be to be fun, maybe even a little silly, but um that's uh just keeping good good fun. Well, a couple things I would like to accomplish out of it is to not so much focus on the you know, well, I always use this microphone and that pre or this plug-in to fix that problem. It's to really talk about the decision-making process. Like you don't you said you don't have a template, you don't walk in with a pre uh you know arranged plan. You know, you listen, you think, and then you you you head towards a solution that's in your head somewhere. And so if we could talk about that, I think that would be really interesting because that applies to everybody that's you know got a stereo interface and uh Ableton or you know, uh Prologic at uh on their home on their laptop and wants to create, you know, something that's in their head, you know. So how do you how do you make the decisions to get from this idea, you know, onto tape? Now, uh obviously you and I you know have this engineering background which you know we rely on in every moment, every every moment of the day is like, well, what does it really sound like? Because we know what it sounds like. We have a we have a reference there. So um I think this will move in con in tandem with a little with a mastering masterclass that I'm gonna do separately, um, but that kind of move through some of the same topics, but from that from a mastering perspective, because learning what it actually sounds like uh allows you to make decisions. Um but I I'm looking forward to that. We'll start uh you know recording that over let's let's say quote unquote over the next few weeks.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:04

That sounds good. It makes you remind me like this production I have coming up. I I sort of hear in my head what I want it to be. Uh and hired people and and working toward that. But it's not written in stone, so to speak. I'm not gonna go in and but there's a lot of specificity to it also, what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:26

Right. Well that's that's the that's the job. Yeah, it's it's that's the job. How to make decisions. It's the it's the I don't know, it's the guardrails that uh that keep you on the path, or it's the you know, if you were doing uh a print or photographic work, you know, it would be your color clock c uh calibration from a studio and producing and recording standpoint. I I like to get myself in the frame of mind of the work that I'm doing. So I might listen to previous work, I might work to listen to similar artists' previous work. Um not because I want it to sound like that, it's just if I'm gonna if if I'm gonna try to make this thing to sell to these artists, fans, then I I you know I need to be a fan. I need to understand how a fan listens and things like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:15

No, I agree. I kind of am lucky to work with people that I like the music, so it works that way. It's funny now I'm thinking of when you said what you know, what does it mean to be a producer? Really the simple answer is making decisions and and bringing the project in within budget. But but you know, making decisions is really what it is. Now, you know, to be a good producer you gotta make good decisions.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:45

You gotta make the right decisions.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:46

But it's all a matter of taste and whatever. Yeah, getting it done within budget and you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:53

A CEO, you know, a business uh mastery course that I or uh a video uh saying whatever that I I listened to back in the day. It was uh this was a number of years ago. I didn't go to business school, I went to music school, and then suddenly I'm running a multi-location businesses, you know, with with uh location in Brooklyn and 44th Street and 45th Street simultaneously. And I was I was coming up with an analysis paralysis or decision-making paralysis, and they they really told me I had missed one of the key factors. The purpose of the CEO wasn't to determine what ultimately was the best decision. You know, it wasn't about doing more research, it wasn't about doing more soul searching, it wasn't about finding, getting more opinions. The CEO just had to make a decision, as simple as that. And at the end of the day, the CEO, you know, makes is is you know, it's a good decision or a bad decision, but someone has to make a decision, or everyone just stands around wondering whether they like their job or not.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:59

Is this a good is this what I should be doing with my time? You know, that's what all the employees are asking. Yeah, but while the uh the CEO is there trying to decide, is this do I should I invest in this new technology? Should I give this person a break on the studio time? Should I allow my good and and employee to take the week off or or a month off for uh for their wedding? You know, it's it's just making a decision based on you know what you know at the time and giving yourself permission to to make bad decisions and just course correct uh once you realize that they're wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:34

Yeah, I guess the the simple thing is a band plays a song down and when it ends, they all just look in at you. How how was that? You like it? We need to do it again? What's different?

unknown 1:16:47

You know?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:47

Yeah, yeah. That's an important that's a crazy important role. I I did a little I mean, uh you do this every day, but it was very notable in a uh a small classical ensemble that I recorded, um, a string ensemble that I recorded in my room a number of years ago. And um they were a little shocked that I could read the score because they were coming into what looked like a pop studio, not a not a classical recording place. And um I was like, yeah, well, you know, man, give me copies of the scores. And we got to the end, they're like, so how was it? I was like, well, there was an entrance at bar 64 that wasn't really solid. And I think the timing of the second half of the third page here was was probably could be better. And they were like, Joe, okay, thank you. Let's go back to bar 60 and we'll do we'll recut that place and let's do the third page again. Um, they didn't have to stop and listen to the whole thing and make decisions and get all out of their their head. They could just keep moving. And I I was I'd love that I could give them that, that I could be that set of ears for them at that time.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:52

That's huge. And I've no I've noticed on a lot of the dates I've done string or horn dates or whatever. A lot of people don't read music, and I love having the score there and just marking things and following along, and uh it's a it's it's a it's a good skill to have, definitely, you know. God, you reminded me of the old days. Yeah. Well when you did okay, this is irrelevant, but on analog tape, you know, that you're recording a horn section, you sort of punch out when they're not playing. Nobody would do that on Pro Tools now. They just go back and clean it and throw it all away. Because you didn't want all that noise. Now everybody's supposed to stay quiet, but you know, they're cleaning their instrument, you know, they're blowing the spitholes out and all that. Or or you mute the faders. I just mean you had to have the score to read to follow along to know when to turn them off. Because you get you watch her faces, it's not not the nothing. So it really was a great skill back then, uh for for just that simple reason.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:02

I do think the the music school training is probably the thing that that I couldn't do what I do without it. I mean, I I do know pro mastering engineers that didn't go through a music degree or music program or really solid on instrument, but I feel like they have to they have to they take a different path. They probably get to the same or a similar result, but they do have to take a different path, a little more seat of the pants kind of uh reaction. But um that's that's the skills I wouldn't I I would miss every day if I couldn't if I couldn't uh talk music, you know, with musicians. No, it's definitely helpful. Well, Dave, I'm gonna wrap it up here. Um this has been a lovely conversation. Thanks for uh taking the time and uh being brilliant as always.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:54

Thank you, Scott. I feel like some of it we're just scratching the surface, but it's it was interesting to hear uh what you had to say to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:03

So well, great, great. I'm I'm glad. Well hopefully at least five other people on the planet will enjoy our conversation. Uh and a few will like it, uh like and follow uh as well. Um I keep them informal, but uh and I'm told that uh the few people who have left left comments uh tell me they like that, so I think doing it. Yeah, yeah. Feel free to leave your comments, uh something you'd like to know. Um, do keep your ears on because we are going to do um masterclass with Dave. And um I I think we'll just sign off now, throw some music on, and say good afternoon from Master Disc. This is Scott Hall making music at Master Disc with Dave O'Donnell, and uh have a great day.