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Making Vinyl @ Masterdisk
With 30 years of vinyl cutting and mastering experience, Scott Hull tells it like it is. As the Chief Engineer at Masterdisk, Scott has all the information you need to make your own musical vision into a plastic reality. Scott will host a variety of guests from the record making industry, and together they will answer all your burning questions about every aspect of the vinyl-making process. Some of the many high profile artists that Scott has mastered and cut for include Sting, Steely Dan, Dave Matthews, and John Mayer. If you're looking for a place to hear seasoned, expert opinions on all things vinyl, look no further.
Making Vinyl @ Masterdisk
Making Vinyl Conference & Cutting Steely Dan's Two Against Nature
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A current events podcast episode from Masterdisk. First, we hear about KJ's fundraiser and video premiere party, Then Scott Talks about Making Vinyl 2019 - The Vinyl conference coming to LA, CA next week. And to wrap up - Scott Tells us all about cutting the Grammy-winning Two Against Nature by Steely Dan. Follow along Steely Dan Fans - to hear behind the scenes stories about the making of this iconic record.
Making Vinyl - Link Here: http://makingvinyl.org/
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Music heard :
Steely Dan - Cousin Dupree
From the Album Two Against Nature
listen to it on Spotify: Cousin Dupree
Hello and welcome to Making Vinyl at MasterDisc. I'm Scott Hull, owner and chief engineer of MasterDisc in New York. And today we're going to talk about some current events that are coming up. And as usual, I'm with my friend and colleague, bass player, songwriter, extraordinaire KJ of the Odyssey.
SPEAKER_00Hello, hello.
SPEAKER_01So um yeah, we're gonna do current events today, and then we're gonna then we're gonna pick up some maybe pick up some vinyl questions at the end.
SPEAKER_00Um It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. So what's your what's the first current event then?
SPEAKER_01Well, in the previous previous episode, we uh we introduced folks to your um uh video release and your um your vinyl release party. Uh tell tell us how that went.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was it was fabulous. Uh we raised money for a great cause. This was Vocal New York, um, and uh they're an activist group in New York, if uh if our listeners don't already know. Uh and they came out, um, people came out in force, uh, raised money for a great cause, and we also debuted the video, um, which was directed by um uh uh actor named uh Otto Asando, um who people have seen uh no doubt in the last X-Men movie and uh Jason Bourne and Chicago Med on TV. Anyway, he um he was good enough to direct our video, did an incredible job. So um the after you know, after the the we released it on vinyl and released the single digitally before that, this was the next big hurdle to overcome. And uh you can see the video now at the odyssey.com or on any of our social media accounts. It's uh t-h-e-o-d-d-y-s-y, the odyssey. And uh yeah, so we're we're pretty excited about it. And you know, hey, people bought vinyl at the show, so you know the plan's working.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's the way it's supposed to go. Um, yeah, I saw the video. It's it's amazing, um, real creative and fun and um thought-provoking. So uh you know, folks, you gotta go check that out. Um, even though the vin the video is not on vinyl, but uh the song certainly is.
SPEAKER_00But once we work out a way to do that, it absolutely will be.
SPEAKER_01They actually tried, um they actually had um uh analog you know video discs back in the day. Um it was you know pressed plastic um you know uh video discs. They were made for you know a few years. And there's a um um Well how does that work exactly? I don't can't actually say I know. Uh that is outside of my pay grade. Uh don't let me down. You know everything. Damn. I I'm sorry. Well give me a second. I gotta look it up on on the Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now I gotta go to Wikipedia and do the work myself. But what's the point of this podcast if not to teach me everything about vinyl?
SPEAKER_01Um well, if if it were about uh recorded music on vinyl, then um I can answer that question.
SPEAKER_00All right. So let's talk more about vinyl then.
SPEAKER_01Um we uh making vinyl. So making vinyl is the name of my podcast, but is also the name of an industry conference that's coming up in in Hollywood in in LA um this month, the 14th and 15th. It's gonna be at the W Hollywood Hotel. Um, and it is an industry group, um, but I don't think it's really closed to the public, but it's it's intended to be uh for people making vinyl. Um I've gone the previous two years, uh, been on a panel there one uh previous year. So we have um artists, we have um mastering engineers, we have people who make the equipment that we all use to master. Um there's um people there that and you actually manufacture the records. Um and there's uh people that do the printing and design of the artwork and of the design of the special packages that we all find really interesting and fun. Um they actually have an awards program there um where you can enter your project from the previous year into a design awards. Um and they go through all of these really crazy and intricate and detailed packages that are made um uh for um for single releases and for singles, but also for box sets and and books and vinyl combined and and uh it's an all really uh very creative um uh creative endeavor on the um on the bespoke um design side of things. So there's a design awards set uh into it as well. But um it's just a chance for interest you know, people with the same problems that I have on a daily basis, um, getting together to talk about solutions and uh it's play a way of sharing information and sort of you know highlighting the issues that that we have. It's not really a you know a complaint department, but it's uh it's a way of broadcasting the information um about making vinyl, you know, you know, uh in a timely fashion. Yeah, out to the out to everybody involved. It's been a really good event.
SPEAKER_00So is this uh the type of thing where you expect to see the latest and greatest of whatever's out there, you know, new, I don't know, new new new theories of design, new uh exciting new products, new ways to create vinyl, that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_01Um in one respect, yes. There's uh some new technology that's on the horizon that I'm uh uh uh directly involved in, and and that will be discussed as well. Um uh a uh a company from Austria um is working on a um on a way of making a master for vinyl without using the the um kind of environmentally hazardous uh steps of of plating and um you know and the chemicals involved in all of it. So um uh it's still in the uh design phase and idea phase, but uh we'll learn more about that. But other than that, uh this is a technology sort of devoid of of new tech of new technology. You know, we're we're making things that as they were in the 60s and 70s. Um and so there are some new, there are some changes, but by and large, we're dealing with um production problems. We're dealing with how to get records from one place to another place uh without damage them. We're we're worried about we're talking about um production deadlines and how many pressing plants are online and how quickly we can, you know, whether it's even possible for us to do day and date releases uh that are simultaneous with this with the digital release. Um the fact that uh vinyl takes quite a bit longer to um to move through the process. And um uh one fellow, at least one fellow is gonna be talking specifically about quality control in vinyl, so I'm gonna be very interested to hearing what he has to say about that. Um we've talked about that you know there's there's a wide difference um in uh the quality from one record to another record. Um this has kind of always been the case. Um and you could kind of rely on certain record companies to produce you know high quality product products, and other companies kind of put together more you know inexpensive products. Um but it's really notable uh today. Um when you're paying quite a bit of money for a record, um you you really you should be able to expect that it's sounds great and that it plays properly and that it's not you know dirty and doesn't have a lot of record noise. Um those are some of the the things we'll you know we'll be talking about. And uh again that's making vinyl. It's in Los Angeles, California, uh October 14th and 15th at the W Hollywood Hotel.
SPEAKER_00So many things have come to mind because of that. Um where do I start? Um first of all, why would anybody want to leave New York City in the middle of October? It's the only two weeks of good weather we have.
SPEAKER_01I know.
SPEAKER_00Um second of all, that was a rhetorical. Um, second of all, um the uh the you you mentioned environmental impact, and that piqued my interest. I mean, in this day and age, that's a that's a hot topic, you know, as we're slowly destroying the planet on which we live. And I, you know, it probably should have occurred to me, but it really didn't. Um what is the uh what what where does the environmental impact stem from? You said it was is the production process. Can you just enlighten me?
SPEAKER_01It it kind of depends on how closely you look at the whole thing. Uh on a global basis, we're not um talking about a huge impact. It's it's more like we're looking at the process and going, could we do it without using plastics? Could we, you know, without using um um uh caustic and toxic metal processes? And um but the the good news is none of these processes produce a whole lot of um airborne carbon issues. From an airborne aspect, I don't think we've got a a big impact on a local scale, um if not handled properly, you know, the chemicals involved in in plating and pressing, mostly plating, um can be toxic groundwater issues if if they're not you know handled very carefully. I think the the the goal well uh the the admission isn't that the that we're um heavily polluting with these processes, it's just you know, can we do something that's better?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Well, and I'm glad to hear that you're on the forefront of that. Um it you know I know that you've always been conscientious, um, but I'm uh I'm glad to know that you're thinking of this, even though I, you know, I am probably a lot of people like me had no idea that it was that there was an issue. And I think, you know, I think you're right that you know the the the the mastering world, the vinyl production world, it's not the biggest thing, but every little bit does help, and it's our responsibility to help out where we can. And I remember seeing the other day that um vinyl was out selling CDs. Um some blog posts said this uh for the first time since 1980, whatever. Uh so who knows what the near future brings. And and you know, maybe it's a small impact now, becomes a but becomes a bigger one later. I'm heartened to hear that you and and other conscientious people are trying to do something about it. That's cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's uh admittedly, um, it's a co um there's more than one reason for uh uh uh looking at this new technology, um, and the same process of um eliminating the vinyl, uh eliminating the plating steps uh for making vinyl, um we're going to um eliminate several areas where new noises and and new defects could creep into the process. Um so by um um by cutting going straight to a stamper in this case, um um made um not with metal forming, um they may be able to um produce a um a much higher quality output. Um sort of that's the the good news. They also the good news is it's gonna have it probably has less than biometal impact, though I'm sure um the new equipment um you know has a has some impact of its own.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah, although it's the lesser of two evils thing. I mean, electric cars aren't perfect either because the electricity has to come from somewhere, but they're not causing you know lung cancer in anybody at the moment, unless the electricity comes from a coal plant, I guess. Anyway.
SPEAKER_01But it's yeah, but that's the kind of the situation where hopefully we've we've got a uh uh higher quality output with uh with with uh you know bringing along for the ride some um some improvements in uh in uh industry ic eco you know uh environmental ecology.
SPEAKER_00Sure, absolutely. Um okay, next current event. Um one I'm particularly interested in. We touched on it last time, which is the new old Steely Dan record.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Two Against Nature. About twenty years ago, I mastered that record and it's um finally getting put out on vinyl. Uh we've got some news on that front. The cut masters that I sent out were plated and and pressed, and we got test pressings back, and they actually sound really great. So we're um we're waiting to hear from all the powers that be. At this very moment, um the producer and uh manager and the artists uh have to listen and weigh in on it. But I've given my my my seal of approval to the to the sound quality of the record because the plating plant you know got the job done.
SPEAKER_00And it's uh the the seal of approval is is um is kind of a big deal in this case. Um I recall uh oh about a thousand different articles I've read where um tell talking about how every uh engineer, every mixer, every front-of-house guy person um uses a Steeley Dan record to figure out if their system is tuned, if their EQ is okay, if if the room sounds fine. And the reason they do that is because this is one of the, historically speaking, this is one of the greatest sounding um collection of records out there, and Two Against Nature is so good that they won a Grammy for it. Um I know it wasn't all a hundred percent about the sound, it's actually really good playing and songwriting too, but the sound is a big is a big part of that. And um, and I know I've seen pictures of you with Donald Fagin before. Um can you talk a little bit about you know the the current the the current iteration of this record and also back when you when you first mastered this record and what it was like to be a part of that about uh that elite league?
SPEAKER_01Well, certainly the um Staley Dan has always um uh really from the first recordings that the that they released um were really well engineered. Um you know, they uh obviously started with some great ideas and and they hired musicians that could really play, you know, creatively. But there was a determination that the um um I I think Donald, you know, personally spearheads this uh um but the band uh obviously picks up you know with that uh thinking as well. But spearheads this uh concept of uh if it could sound better, you know, why aren't we doing it that way? Um so it's a pursuit of excellence that's uh that requires both uh a lot of determination and uh and a lot of patience um from everybody involved because the best sounding version doesn't necessarily come the first time you press the button. So he's just I think just willing to do it as many times as necessary until he's convinced that it's as good as it can be. Um it's it's a very simple way of stating it, but it's um it's it's it's really that matter of fact. I think um listeners could think about anything uh in their life. And if they had um uh if they if they turned off the excuse machine, um, you know, uh they could produce a higher quality product by just simply not calling it you know good enough. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um did he come into the studio uh and and hang out with you and and did you guys discuss a game plan for the master um back when you first did this record?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean it was um he wanted to know what what my thoughts were on it because they had been uh obviously working on it for years. Um Two Against Nature as a Steely Dan record came almost ten years or so after the previous Steely Dan record. So they had a lot of time to think about it. Um but uh as such, they also you know didn't have a lot of objectivity uh uh about how it actually sounded and and what it might need to uh to make it great. But uh, you know, uh I I had my input, but it was it was really the process for me was about making sure um it was was satisfying Donald's ear and his sensibility. I mean that was that was who was making all the decisions, and uh that's that's that's who had to decide when it was perfect.
SPEAKER_00Um And do you remember anything that he said to you regarding like this is how this is how I believe it could be perfect, this is what you can do to make me happy?
SPEAKER_01Well, oddly enough, he's um he's um very different very hard on himself, uh uh very hard on himself creatively and and performance-wise. Um he doesn't really enjoy his own voice. Um he doesn't think he sings very well. Um I've heard him say that more than a couple times. Um we were years prior, we were um remastering for digital um uh the early Dan catalog. And uh I was told that he he couldn't even stand to sit in the room for a whole playback of a song. He would listen to a little bit of it and then we just leave because it was just so frustrating because all he heard were the were the mistakes, all the things that were things that he would would do differently now.
SPEAKER_00Um Hendrix was like that too, I'm told. Yeah, painted his own voice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they it's it's it's ironic that they become um successful um you know presenters.
SPEAKER_00I iconic presenters. I mean uh you know you'd recognize Donald's voice anywhere.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Yeah. But you know, it's credit, he kept he kept uh pursuing it, and um um I don't I don't think he you know um uh beat himself up over it. He just he just you know was just didn't like it. But um a very interesting um moment that I've recounted uh several times in in print um was a was a moment where where we well I'll start with the first one. We're working on um we we we'd mastered the the whole album um with revisions three or four times, maybe five times up to that point. And each time he'd come in, we'd make a few changes, I'd give him a copy uh uh digitally um or a CD and he'd take it home and listen to it. He'd make some you know comments and stuff. And then at one point we were getting really close to being done, and he was um noting that he really would like to be able to hear it on his speakers while we were making the changes. So he brought his personal pair of speakers into the mastering room and we we listened to it as as I made the changes that he was considering so that he could he could make up his mind. Because what was happening was we were doing, you know, uh uh you know, half db up and half db down, and then he'd go home and listen to it, and then he'd come back and was like, well, can we do a quarter dB up and a quarter db down? You know, and let me come listen to that. And it was becoming too many options for him to do it that way. So he wanted to be able to uh shortcut the process a little bit and get right to making a decision. But ultimately it came down to the resolution of the hardware that I had at the time where the smallest increment of change I could make was 0.2 dB. Now, for the you know non-engineering listeners, a dB of of of level is almost imperceptible. Uh dB of EQ is really only perceptible if you've if you're um if you do this every day for a living. I mean, it's it takes some some quality perception to be able to hear the difference of a one dB of change. For the best of the best, you know, we most of us consider a half dB to be a small increment as we could possibly need. Well he was at a quar he was less than a half of that, at two-tenths of a dB. And it was still too big of a gap. Um but I describe it this way his his music we we were talking about an EQ that was in the mid-range that had to do with the um um the relative volume of the um percussion instruments and the vocal. And he had felt like his vocal needed a little bit of EQ, but every time we tried to EQ the for the vocal, the rhythm instruments, uh percussion instruments would come up in in in addition to it, and that bothered him. Um Steely Dan stuff is the the rhythm track is often crafted from a bunch of different percussion instruments playing together slightly differently. But that shuffle thing, that characteristic Steely Dan thing, is a amalgam of a bunch of different rhythm tracks. And if you equalize, if you change the tone um uh in in in a frequency band, you're affecting one of those shakers more than the other one. So it might be a hi-hat, it might be a shaker, it might be a couple different shakers, might be a clave, it might be uh some other um organic percussion instrument or even another percussionist playing. But if you those balances were so precise for him to his ear, to Donald's ear, that um the EQ was literally changing the vibe of the tune for him.
SPEAKER_00Did you did you ever get the impression during that time that he was tempted to go back and mess with the mix, or did it seem like he was satisfied to make all these adjustments in your mastering studio?
SPEAKER_01He was uh debating that with himself on a regular basis. I mean, he really did not want to go back and reopen that because he knew it would be another week or two of, well, while we're here, let's change this. While we're here, let's change that. He had he had finally got himself happy with the mix, and so he really didn't want to uh go backwards. And I've I've heard that about him on more recent records when we did um um Sunken Condos. Um Michael Lanhart um co-produced that with him, and he mentioned the same sort of thing that Donald worked on one aspect of the record of the song at a time, and then he would call it done. And then he would move to another aspect of the record and then would call it done. And he he was very reluctant to go backwards. Uh he he knew that he was moving forward, making very detailed and very careful decisions. Um, and he tried really hard to avoid going backwards because it it it kind of um I I if I can if I can make the assumption from a you know, with his personality, um I I I think it would it would just sort of derail the train or derail the thought train to go backwards.
SPEAKER_00Was Walter Becker at the time involved in any of these proceedings?
SPEAKER_01He came in on um on some of the stuff that we did with two against nature and uh it was really interesting. Um I'm gonna get personal for a moment, but I I I I I don't really think that Donald would um you know would mind even if he was sitting here with me. Um Donald's very intense and very determined and and almost looks like he's uh somewhat in pain when he's working. I mean some people who have seen him live might even recognize that. I mean, he's obviously enjoying playing, but he's he he has an intensity about him that uh that he wears on his face and his body. I mean you can you can really tell that he's intensely concentrating. He's not he's not playing the roads, he's working the roads. Right, right, right. So um um that was all I knew of him from um uh working on Comic Curiad and then working on um Steely Dan Alive and then working on Two Against Nature. I had only worked with with Donald in the room. Well, we had a um uh an editing session scheduled, and Walter was in town, and so he came to the session with me, and lo and behold, a different Donald showed up. Oh, really? Very curious, very interesting thing. Donald was way more animated, was way more enjoying himself. Um, he was a little less engaged in the you know micro details. He was still you know very concerned that it was being done right, but he was also very concerned with hanging with his bud and uh Walter and cracking jokes that were way over my head that I had no idea what they were even referring to. And um, and uh he like was was laughing and was enjoying himself, and it was uh it was really kind of a kind of a hilarious session.
SPEAKER_00And that's cool, and that was rarefied air that you were breathing at the time just to hang out with those guys. Well, I've had legends.
SPEAKER_01I've had that opportunity m memory t many times in my career where I'm just like um I remember one instance where um I was with a um we could talk about it another time, but I I like I I there was that moment when two really great artists were in the room uh by chance at the same time and they hadn't seen each other in a long time. And I just stopped and thought to myself, if I sit really still, they'll forget I'm here. I didn't say anything, I didn't move, I didn't pick up my coffee cup, nothing. I just wanted to sit there and and just enjoy that moment. And I've never been one to to approach these to approach stars like that and and you know ask for something for them from them. I mean for me that my my treat is just being in the room with them. And um I I I know that um as soon as it feels like they're dealing with a fan, then they have to kind of put a wall up. And I I don't ever want them to feel like they had to have a wall up when they're in the room with me. But a hilarious Donald Feigan story. Um what came out of this that same session. We were working on the song uh Cousin Dupree, and we were um trying to edit it down to be a a song that would fit on the radio. It was uh had a very long outro and had long solos, and um, you know, we all know that if you if you w wanna make a hit, you gotta make it fit. So you cut it down to 305. You know, that's uh that's the the line from the entertainer. But um there's a uh a variety of reasons, people's uh attention span and radio programming and and um and just what'll fit on a single. So there I we're kind of painstakingly trying to find edits on Cousin Dupree that don't you know ruin the song. And um I'm playing back the song and I hear behind me Donald turns to Walter and says, Why didn't we put background vocals on this song? Or do you know why we is is there some reason why we didn't put background vocals on this song? And Walter didn't even answer, he just laughed because he knew what the question meant. Is that Donald was now considering uh you know going back to the recording and putting background vocals on the song? And um, and he and Donald just said, Well, you know, what are you thinking? And so he asked me to play the chorus back and he kind of sung along this part. How's about a kiss from your cousin Dippery? Which is this, you know, answer line that the background vocalists do, and it's on the record. It was not on the version at that time. Wow. And so he's and you know, and this is I say this just to illustrate the point. It's like he was always concerned, always working, always trying to find the best thing that could they could do with the song. And even though it literally meant um making that decision to now go back and rework on Cousin Deprey meant we had to call the label, the label had to call the pressing plant, they had to stop pressing the CDs that we had just sent them the masters for the week before. So they had already were in production, had to scrap all the production that they had started. They had to call the engineer and fly him up to New York. They had to call the background vocalists, they got together in the studio the next day, they did the parts, added a couple harmonies and added uh several of the background vocal parts to the song, remixed it, sent it back over to me, I inserted it, you know, remastered it, inserted it into the album, we remade all of the masters for the for the CD, and then we redid the this the single edit that we had started that day. And all of that out of that um, you know, why didn't we add background vocals to the song?
SPEAKER_00Man, that's ballsy. I mean, you know you're you know you're do you're working on on a higher level when when you can you know call the record label and call the pressing plant and stop everything to put in a background vocal on a on a song.
SPEAKER_01But you know, again, the the record won a Grammy, so I guess you know I guess it was the song best uh song by duo and group, and the album was album of the year and um best engineered album non-classical, so yeah, it won a few awards. Um I really um I can't say whether people would have would have been voted for a Grammy if it didn't have it, but I don't think the song would have played as well on the radio without the without the track that without the the added parts, because once you heard it, um you immediately went like, oh my god, that was so naked before. It was uh it was uh but it had made it through you know several years of of of scrutiny to get to that point. So that was uh sort of the comical point. But he it all in all, I mean he was still in great spirits. He wasn't uh he like I said from the beginning, he was just determined to keep working on something until it was as as good as he could imagine it. And uh, and so that was the uh that was the the the fun part about working alongside of him. You just if you were patient, if you didn't have a a deadline in your own head, um it was it was like a it was like a perfect scenario, perfect, perfect working situation where you get to challenge yourself uh and are appreciated, you know, for for what you come up with.
SPEAKER_03From e-ball man in the rock and stop and a ball and box it in a big rib. I come back home to plan my next move. And let's be my little cousin to be walking. Well I can roll.
SPEAKER_00So 20 years later, um do you know what precipitated the um the this this new life for uh Two Against Nature?
SPEAKER_01No, other than uh it's a record that hasn't been uh sitting in the vinyl bins, and they probably realized that in other records that they've got on vinyl sold. Um I'm pretty sure Sunken condos sold out. They made a a really um really cool looking clear vinyl um uh disc where you could actually see through the disc um um and see the back of the grooves from the other side. It was a very psychic really weird and psychedelic sort of sort of pressing, very attractive. And it actually sounds really good, which is unusual for a um for a picture disc or a clear disc. They they used some some new processes that were available, and um it was by far the quietest um sort of picture disc or clear disc that I'd ever heard. Um uh but uh I I suspect they just decided that it was um you know it was time to um to get the record out there. Um I'm I'm kind of surprised that there aren't bootlegs of it, to be honest, because it was a big enough record that uh uh I and maybe and maybe that had uh some impact on it. They might have found bootlegs on um in in foreign countries.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and as discussed, I mean, you know, record sales are up, you know, uh again, surpassing CD sales for the first time since God knows when. And uh, you know, why wouldn't they want to put out one of one of Steely Dan's most uh influential and and popular records? It makes sense to me. So um you said before uh when we first started talking about this that you had gotten the thumbs up about the refs that you sent. Is that is that correct?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd sent out refs and uh and uh they liked the way they sounded. Um we worked pretty hard to get them you know perfect. Um even though Donald wasn't and directly involved in this part of the process, um I I kept his uh I I I worked as if he was.
SPEAKER_00Um Who who was who were you reporting to as far as you know who who decided that that you got the thumbs up? I mean who listened to these things?
SPEAKER_01Um initially uh the production department at uh at Rhino Records. Um so Rhino is licensing this title for release, and um initially they reached out to me to try to find the sources for the original masters, and I uh uh confirmed that the tapes that the files that they already had were were the highest resolution files that were available because we had worked in in HD even 20 years ago, so we had 96k 24-bit files um archived, and they had they they had them in their archives. And so um um I uh um I confirmed that uh I'd I'd be the right choice for cutting the record for them, and and and and and we went ahead and and uh uh started working on the project. So um until they got to the test pressings, um literally it's only um me and the uh production department at Rhino at this point. We're gonna find out in a couple days what the um management and uh an artist uh think about it. But I'm I'm I'm pretty sure they'll be they'll be happy with it because there's um uh there's virtually no defects as far as I could I could hear on them, other than the kind of things you would normally hear on on vinyl, very very minor uh clicks and pops that are part of the vinyl process.
SPEAKER_00And how did the how did the cutting process go for you um with with this? Was there were there any particular challenges or was it smooth sailing?
SPEAKER_01We had one song. We had one song that um was a real standout, had it was originally mastered louder. It kind of it kind of worked and kind of fit into the record, but uh it being louder than anything else, it was prone to distortion on the vocals. So we actually I made an executive decision to lower that song a little bit and to address the vocal distortion a little bit, and allowed me to make the whole record louder. So I so I by doing that I didn't have to lower just that one song. I didn't have to lower the whole record, just that one song. Fortunately, they had uh decided to make it a three-disc record as it was a little too long to make a high quality um uh single disc. I didn't say three-disc. I I I said three-disc. I meant three-sided.
SPEAKER_00Three three-side, yeah. So what are they doing with the fourth side, do you know?
SPEAKER_01Uh, think it's just just gonna be a blank uh blank groove. I don't know if they've got any plans to do um uh an engraving or anything else um uh uh funky with it. Um sometimes I'm told about it, sometimes I don't. Sometimes it's a surprise to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Why was that one song mastered hotter than the others back in the day?
SPEAKER_01Um it it was decided that way. It was uh um it was a little different. Um I to be honest, it was uh it that's just where it's at. Um in hindsight now it I mean it's this record still sounds right to me the way it was. Um and it's only sort of looking at it with current ears that I'm going like, well, yeah, that one's it is actually a little bit louder, but it it it kind of works. It doesn't make the next song sound soft, it uh and it doesn't come in surprisingly loud. It just is a sort of a more boisterous song. I mean, I think um yeah uh there's there's two ways of looking at mastering with regard to level, and one is you know, use the meters and and make everything kind of consistent. Another is to think about it more like you would watch a live show, and in some cases the entire band is playing um for one song and it's gonna be loud and the singer's gonna be loud sitting on top of of all that, and then another song might be just piano and voice, and um um the whole song might be softer, and if you bring that softer song up to be the same level as the band, you lose some of the emotional impact of the softer song. So it's uh you know, for me personally, I I you know I use the lead instrument or the vocal to kind of set the um uh to to kind of help me establish the the relative levels between tracks. Um it I don't think it was defective, but it it had no bearing on the digital. But when it came to the vinyl, um that that louder vocal um was dis was very close to distorting on playback, and so I had to address it with a little more DSing. But I didn't want to take the edge off of it too much. As I added more DSing, it changed the character of his voice. So, you know, it was a combination of a little DSing and a little um drop-in level, and then it fit into the into the record better. So that's it's kind of a microcosm of or an example of um why mastering for vinyls are different beats than mastering for digital.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, absolutely. And and that mastering is is its own sort of creative contact sport, you know, the fact that, you know, in in the room, um you and the and the artists and whoever else was involved just decided that this one track needed to step up because that's where it belongs in the end.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there was there was no other I I don't have any recollection of any other idea. And we didn't actually stop and think, like, hmm, that sounds kind of loud. Should it stay loud? No, no, it wasn't, it wasn't even comp it wasn't even contemplated. It was that was just how we did it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right, three more questions. One, when is this coming out? Two, are you getting copies? And three, can I have one?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, um uh um I don't know exactly when. Um yes, I hope so, and of course. Those were the right answers. Um the um I think the release is scheduled for early. I don't think it's planned for um for um I I don't think it's planned for for this holiday season. I think if it was, it would have to be uh being in print right now. I could be wrong. Um I I haven't asked Rhino what their actual release schedule is, and they don't they didn't seem to be in a hurry um to get my answer to get my um my report back. Um so that that kind of makes me think that they're thinking more like um record store day next year or something like that as a release date.
SPEAKER_00Well that's fair enough. Although I gotta say this would have made great you know holiday presents for probably about a dozen people that I know. So now I'm gonna have to think of something else. Great. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01But sorry. That's one of the funny part about um mastering and cutting and and mixing for that matter, is we're working on projects so much so long before they actually hit the streets. Um we often really joke is just as it starts to get warm here in the northeast, that's when we start working on Christmas records. And uh you know, um April, May, you know, early spring, flowers are coming out and we're doing we're we're cutting Christmas records. It's just it's just kind of weird.
SPEAKER_00It's just how the cycle goes. All right, well, dear listeners, we will definitely let you know when two against nature, um, mastered and cut by Mr. Hull here is uh is ready to hit the shelves so that you can pre-order your copies. I know I'm going to. And uh if you have any uh questions or thoughts about that or anything else that we've talked about, you should hit up Scott and the MasterDisc team on Instagram, on Facebook, um, or at masterdisc.com and uh let us know. And if we answer your question on the air, you'll get a big wet, sloppy kiss from Scott Hull.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_00Or or me. You get to pick.
SPEAKER_01Uh apples. Apples. Um well that's great. It reminds me of uh Lucy Van Pelp there, the kissing booth is open. Um all right, so folks, this has uh been a current events version of making vinyl at MasterDisc. Uh this is Scott Hall, chief engineer and cutting guru at MasterDisc, and again, thanks to KJ of the Odyssey uh for your assistance and asking all the right questions.
SPEAKER_00Yes, sir. All right, goodbye everybody.
