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my viewpoint about AI tools or tools or tools. They're just tools and it depends on like how well you use them. This is not difficult. It doesn't really matter if you continue to use them or not, but at least you can try it first. And if you found that, okay, I'm actually spending you know, way more time in using these new tools and that's make me less efficient than using my old method, then it's totally fine to switch back to your old method. That's okay, too. But at least you need to you know initially spend the time and efforts to
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know this new tools and to see if that will actually be a lifecher for you. Welcome my digital pathology trailblazers and welcome back Candice. It's so great to have you again at the show. How are you today? I'm doing good and happy to be back. So last time we talked um you just landed back at Texas&M and we were talking about your paper about Chad GPT in veterary pathology and u we spent a whole episode on it and recently I've read another paper of yours uh that caught my attention and it's AI literacy curriculum framework and we're
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going to be talking about that too but before we dive into any of the papers uh for those who did not listen to our previous episode. Um, tell the trailblazers who are you a little bit about your background and then we're going to dive in. Sure. Um, hi everyone. I'm Candice Chu. I'm an assistant professor at Kesan University. I'm a veterinarian from Taiwan and currently my research is focused on the application of AI in veterary medicine. So, we have a a little bit of a history together.
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So we met I think the first time we met when uh where I work at Charles River Laboratories um and we worked on some uh projects digital pathology projects image analysis projects together Candice is a clinical pathologist I'm an anatomic pathologist both veterary pathologist and then I was following your work online and you didn't decide to work together at Charles Laboratories and After um your first job, you made a deliberate move back to where you trained, which uh is Texas A&M. And I wanted to unpack this choice. How why did you decide to go back?
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And last time we talked, I think you just joined. Now we are what, two years into you having your own lab? Yeah. And teaching some cutting edge AI to veterary trainees. Let's talk about that. Yes. Um I think the biggest change for me to going back to Texas A&M is the uh different role. Previously when I was at UPAN um the position I had is um assistant professor in the CE track. So I have limited capacity in doing research and um because of this is not part of their job descripty uh description. So they also um did not offer much research support
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um just because this is not a research position and I found that going back to Texas University with a tenure track position I was giving my uh own laboratory space I was giving a substantial amount of startup funding where I can build my research lab and hire PhD students and that really helps me to boost these research in the AI space. This is amazing. I see on LinkedIn every now and then that you're hiring for your own lab and it sounds like it's just heartwarming because you have a history with educating even before you became a professor. Uh you have this
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uh pretty successful online mostly Instagram but now you're on other platforms as well. Um educational platform about clinical pathology. Now it's shifted to what you're doing at Texas&M. So you were already doing that before and now you're writing curricula for veterary students h and basically designing what they should learn about AI. Uh but you had to learn this first yourself. This is you know everybody who's talking about this online just learned it recently. Can
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you walk us through your own AI adoption from the beginning? Like how did you even get interested in digital pathology? Maybe even before we met uh for the digital pathology projects at Charles River. Yeah, I think that um parts of it is related to my uh childhood. So as a kid um you know my mom of course asked me like do you want to join like dance class? Do you want to do any extracurricular activity? And I say no to those and I end up being joining the um You still want to dance? Yeah. Not as a kid. I probably would like to dance right right now but not in the past. Um but then I
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actually signed myself up for computer class. Okay. How old were you? Um I think I was like seven or eight. Okay. Yeah. That means I need to push my kid. He's going to turn eight in December. I don't think he shows too much interest and I don't think you can push them into that direction if they don't want to do that. But yeah, so you were already interested in that at eight. Congratulations. Yes, I play a lot of computer and video games at home and my parents never restrict me of doing that. So I just play like as much as I want and when I play too much
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and I realize, okay, I probably should study a little bit and I will go back to studying. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good. Let's like I mean I see that you have a high level of self motivation otherwise we wouldn't be talking uh here and you wouldn't be like publishing uh the papers like very frequently. I want to tie it back to, you know, your online educational activity because you were, I don't know, you have like over 20,000 uh followers on Instagram and you're pretty strong on other platforms and that's something we share in common because I put
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a lot of stuff and mostly digital pathology, AI for pathology for for pathologists doesn't really matter if MD pathologist or veterary pathologist. So that's like one path of educating and it's useful, right? But working inside of an institution and it's a different level of involvement um level of you know influencing change also overcoming change resistance but also I see it as a way of delivering maybe more and more structured impact. And I remember this one collaboration and it was like an asynchronous collaboration. I don't know which organization was
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doing that maybe ACVP our American college of veterary pathologists when they were discussing like how to teach AI to people and I was like you know what here's the book take what's I wrote this book digital pathology 101 take out of the book what you need what you don't need don't take and good luck with that so I don't know if I'm very proud of my attitude in that collaboration But I was like, I already wrote this book. It's out there. Like, take it and do whatever you
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want with it. And doing what you're doing in an institution. That's why I invited you. I want you like to tell us what's the difference between putting stuff out there online and you having the immediate gratification of people liking it and learning from it and building your own structured thing at an institution where you need to convince people who maybe don't ask to be convinced right they don't their algorithm is not suggesting them oh new course for veterinarians that is
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um related to AI So yeah, tell me about that. Let's unpack the institutional work that you're doing and the online education work that is work that is related to this. um our college is actually uh very supportive of having this AI course and I think it's because it started you know as just one credit elective course on Friday afternoon at 3 basically their last course through the week. So it's so whoever takes it is very motivated already. Yes. Yes. And then it's very low stake. there's no uh we were told that there's no exam final exam for the
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elective courses. So it's basically just like in a very relaxed environment to have the students to learn. So I think it is very good start to make it you know as easy um as easily accessible as um low stress possible. And then uh the reason why I want to make it into a formal course is I am seeing in my research prior to having this course is other uh veterinary schools are having AI courses already you know Wisconsin medicine Kansas State University Auburn University also have one and
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I feel like at that time I was developing this course I don't see anybody else in the college has like so strong um such a strong interest in AI more than I am. So I feel like okay I will be the one who do this and I wanted to make it formal and make it more comprehensive and also make sure it is accessible to other people. So actually I'm when I'm teaching this course this course also involves research as well. students sign uh research consent to participate in the research and then we will publish the result as well. So it is not just purely education but it's a combined
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effort with the research educational research and AI research and AI literacy education. So I try to make it um as impactful as possible. I love it to trying to increase or like maximize the leverage for research and publication. And you did the publication. So you already have some. No, the publication is on what this course entails, right? Do you are there any other publications? Because you mentioned that other universities have courses. Uh did they publish on that? Not to my best knowledge. Mhm. And you know we can do some Google on that but I when I was preparing for the
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episode I didn't see anything either. Do we have guidelines from uh any organization for how to approach this at the moment? Um what we're trying to do at the ACVP right now is you know a while ago we launched this um onsite and also online AI survey and those survey we also asked our membership whether um what are they expecting to see that we can do as an organization. So part of the result will also be shared at the ACBP meeting this year. there's going to be discussion forum um
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followed by the uh review of the survey result and we are working on publishing that survey result so that hopefully we can show people what we have learned on the AI survey and also what else can we do as an organization to push this field forward for our membership. Mhm. So I see like the fastest way of sharing is going to be online which you do anyway. Then you have your institution that is very supportive and you have your own lab and you manage to h create this course and then publishing
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and doing research on that. And then there are other organizations like what do you call ACBP just a professional organization right that are kind of like watching what's happening h it has to happen in the public peerreview domain so what is your impression on the pace of doing that so I I I feel you're very fast both to share like privately and by privately even though it's public I consider it the social media way of sharing where it's just you broadcasting something to the world and whoever is interested is going to learn immediately before the peer review process
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happens. Then you publish a lot and then you are also involved in these organizations like tell me about your perception of the impact of each of these ways and you have this unique perspective of being involved in all these ways. So if you are open to that like tell me what's working well where and what's not working and you wish would change. Um I think to be honest we have to realize that veterinary medicine is relatively slow in in AI and to me specifically I also feel veterary pathology is es especially slow slower than other specialties in nursing compared to
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neuro radiology. Sometimes I even feel comparing to more you know clinical specialties we are slower because those clinicians has been using you know AI scribe to record the conversation between them and their clients and for me I I'm doing everything I can to try to push this forward but I also understand their real concern is at this point they're still not seeing how AI most people still not seeing like how AI I can improve their work like is AI actually better than pathologist there's no there's few publication really talking about that and then for most people
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they don't use AI in their actual pathology work either psychology or pathology and they may have been using AI you know to edit their emails or do some editing but I still hear people talking about okay I actually feel like I spend more time verifying AI output. So I rather just do it myself without using AI or in the year 2026 there are still people talking about you know AI is making fabricated references but actually if you know how to use this tool well in the correct way um this should have been a question you know back in 2023 not in 202 anymore. So I think there's
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still a long way to go and what I can do is to show people how we can utilize AI in different perspectives. So I showed them you know how we can use larger language modeling research by doing my current research you know how to use you know computer vision tools to um do psychology analysis and that's also what I'm currently doing right now and also you can use large model to extract information from the clinical medical record and that's my current involvement with the dog aging
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project we're trying to help the researchers to extract those information from the medical record and also for research, you know, teaching the younger generation of how to use these tools, how to be aware of these tools, and how to evaluate them. And I think those are, you know, me doing my best trying to tackle this problem from all different angles. Mhm. And we're going to talk uh in a second what this curriculum is because it goes pretty deep like you say and I love last time we talked you you said this sentence that like now with
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these tools not using them to advance knowledge and I should know like the the exact quote but you basically said that it's irresponsible to not advance as fast as we can like uh I don't remember exactly what you said. I'm going to look it up, but you said something like, okay, you can still like walk somewhere, but if you want to get there fast, you're going to use a car, right? And it's the same analogy. If you want to advance your research and if it's important to
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your like your work or whatever impact, these are the tools that we have and now we're supposed to use them. Why is it important to you? like is it just a fun thing for you to do which probably it is but there's a lot of effort on all fronts to push it forward so there is like a deeper meaning of that for you tell me about that I think that relates to uh two of my characteristics one I think I'm tax savvy so I'm enjoying technology and second I'm a very lazy person so if there's
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anything that doesn't look like that. No, if there's anything I can ultimate, I will definitely ultimate that. I will not doing it manually. So when the AI tool came out, I feel like, oh my god, that's the perfect solution for me. So I've been using those tools to build a lot of, you know, very supportive component of my life. So for example, I now have this paper pipeline. Um, so I use the RSS that I created based on certain keywords and I will have the AI algorithm to scan
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the RSS and they will push the new article to my Slack app. And on the app, I can press no, yes or no to decide whether to keep those paper or not. And for those paper who are kept the AI algorithm will also run through the paper and then write me a summary and then also automatically put it to the category on notion notebook. So then uh if I have limited time then I can just read the summary you know and those summaries are in the laid out that I designed for it. And I do the same thing for uh veterary clinical pathology. So for those what's your diagnosis
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paper they usually comes with you know limited information and a big cytologology picture and then follow up with additional test in the final diagnosis. So I use AI to create a tool to extract those cytology images and then match with the final diagnosis and made them into the cytology atlas that I have on my notion page. So whenever I have question about couple of days ago I read a paper that kind of look like this psychology I'm currently looking at. I just have to you know open the atlas and take a look and I can find that exact same case. So I've been using those tool
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to make my life easier and more efficient and I want to help other people to make sure they can utilize the power of AI too. So let's look at your framework. Let me share the paper on screen so that we can look at how comprehensive it is. Okay. And you're the last author and there are only two author authors of the paper. The paper's title is curriculum framework for artificial intelligence literacy and veterary education. And the first author is Yang Huang and the second is our today's
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guest Candice Chu. So this is a 15week course and in the paper this is an u openly available paper anybody can download it published in frontiers in veterary science. we have the framework that um starts with fundamentals of AI and this is weeks two to three um we start with an introduction what's going to be in the course then weeks four and five machine learning with hands-on psychologic annotations in a yolo which is an image analysis uh task image analysis model that you are using then we have weeks uh 6 to8 LLM prompt engineering building a chatbot and NLP and
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clinical research. We have weeks 12 to 13A for literature research ethical scientific writing presentation tools and then there is a final project presentation and how did you design it? Why did you decide that these are the important parts of it? I took um the material I had from my various AI presentation and I thought it would be important so that they understand the fundamentals of AI you know even though we are not computer scientists we're not mathematicians but I think having some like non-math understanding of AI tool is very important because if you don't understand
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the basic principle of this tool tool then how can you really assess um whether this is a useful tool or not and so I think it is very important to definitely cover that part and of course um most people our first encounter with AI is going to be no chatbt larger language model so they definitely need to know what large range models are and what are the models are currently available and because of that I think teaching them how to use a large range model efficiently is also important. So that covers the prompt engineering part as well. And we also include the
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uh hands-on practice of you know building your AI chatbot. You can uh actually in this interface you can add in the system prompt so that the AI will interact with act with you in the different persona and students see that they're very exciting about it. And also moving away from that we also have to touch on other very famous uh uh application of AI tools such as you know tools to automatically diagnose disease based on X-ray and those would be you know using the principle of computer vision so that and also machine learning. So that also needs to be touched
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uh briefly with students. And then following that student will be able to read a paper about a um you know recently released um AI X-ray tool and then read through the numbers and actually give them critical assessment of this tool because in the future very likely they will be the one probably not in charge not necessarily in charge but would definitely be involved in process like whether we need to purchase this service or we need to subscribe to the service. So they need to have the understanding of you know how well this tool is by assessing the performance matrix. So
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that's important too and because of that they also need to understand you know what is the current trend like what's the current recommendation from various veterinary special organizations. So it is also important to have a review of them to share you know the current nine organizations where their recommendation on AI and I found to make it very practical um I also invary medical association Mr. Don Riddick. Um, I actually worked with him at the AVMA AI working group. That's how I got to know him and he graciously uh agreed to do a online talk with
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our students and that was voted as one of their favorite co class in this course because they can actually you know I I told them like you better prepare your questions you know because outside of this class you need to pay for those questions. you might as well ask them for free in this class and they learn a lot and understand that uh veterinarians are ultimately responsible for their um professional for the professional output that they make whether they use AI tool or not. So they need to be responsible for that and additionally also teaching you know how AI can be used in
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research ethically. Frankly speaking that is not one of the favorite course by the students because not many of them actually engage in academic work but I also think it is very important since we have been talking about you know AI can generate fabricated citations so they need to know that as well and then lastly um for the the end of class presentation it's more like you know teach me something I don't know because I've been teaching you guys for the whole semester about all those AI
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tools can you let me know something that I don't know and students actually mention some really cool AI tools and I learned a lot from them. So I think this is a very beneficial session and then also is also one of their favorite class. That's amazing. So the first thing that I like a lot that is different than academic learning as I know it but I left academia a long time ago so maybe it has changed but with you it's changing is the hands-on practice because so I come from the
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image analysis part of digital pathology and this importance of being able to communicate with other experts with knowing the computer vision terms Um I think this like needs to be included in the curriculum as well for pathologists because we're going to be in one way or another what I'm seeing in the industry working with image analysis tools and the kind of the principles that you just mentioned apply to any part of the the workflow that a professional is touching. So, so for me it's going to be okay image analysis designing image analysis solutions to to answer
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some research questions right then uh having other people uh be able other pathologists be able to help in the project so so I see that you're doing this at multiple levels image analysis as you mentioned then building the chat bots being able to interact with the chatbot as like different personas. So, you're basically like exposing them in a very accelerated way to all the trial and error things that I assume you experienced as well and then like learned from your lessons because I very much relate to what you said. Oh, I have to correct it so many times that I'd
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rather do it myself. And it's like not knowing the power of the tool, the capabilities of the tool, and not having the patience to actually learn how to leverage it. And and that's what what you're teaching, what I I see from this paper that you're teaching. So, this is a different way. the the fact that you invited a lawyer to your class. I wanted to highlight that as well because something that's easy still beneficial and tempting to do is okay if you're ahead of you know
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most of the people in a specific topic and you say you're techsavvy you've been working with this technology since chat GPD came out building your own chat bots and all that stuff it's kind of tempting to just like okay this is what I learned learn it as well and you're going to be ahead of the people as well but you kind of took um and I see it across across the board. I see it um at international digital pathology conferences and I get also push back from the rest of the the digital pathology world. What I'm referring to is to putting the clinician, the pathologist,
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the the medical person on the pedestal and letting them teach all the other medical professionals a discipline that is actually multi-disciplinary field. So why I say it's still beneficial because people will still learn but they will only get this one perspective and if a discipline is multi- faceted like in this case you know you have um computer scientists you have the especially this model this is module four the ethics and legal piece this and and it's cool that you say that that people actually like it they appreciate it but you being aware of uh needing to involve other
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specialist is noteworthy. H how did you come up with this? Was it natural for you or was it like oh shoot I discovered I don't know this piece and I don't really feel comfortable teaching on this um and you know either way is fine you brought in other specialists but how did you come up with this idea? Yeah, I see pros and cons with that. Um because me personally, I also attend various you know workshop whether online or on campus to learn a different perspectives about AI. So as a student
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I know the benefit and the downside of learning from experts. You know, sometimes if a computer engineer is the lecture, I don't necessarily understand what he's talking about and he's probably also he or she probably won't be able to understand like why we can understand it what they're talking. Um for me I think I I'm making the judgment call whether to incorporate them in my class but of course I work with Don so I know that he has fantastic you know communication
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skills he will have absolutely no problem to make sure my student can understand the concept but most of the time I I consider myself as sort of like a project manager you know like I learn from the engineer ers and I digest it and I present it in a way I believe that our veterinary students would be better to be able to understand rather than having them actually in my class and talking to the student directly because I feel like that might be too difficult for them in a level that really have to understand as clinicians but I would be able to digest it first and translate
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that and of course uh Don wouldn't need that help his he's tastes great already. So I will just have him have the direct conversation with my students. Another thing that is right now maybe in two months it's not going to be that way that you put in the curriculum is vibe coding and vibe coding is basically coding or designing apps designing like web solutions with words instead of coding. And there are also AI agents, clawed code. Uh, and you you included this in your curriculum and
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in this paper. This is some how did the reviewers react to that? That the journal probably needs to uh find reviewers who are so up to date with the technology. But um that also like caught my attention that this is kind of something that's happening real time and you managed to put it out there fast in a paper and package it into a um student curriculum. Yeah, that's actually the that's not included in the curriculum that I just taught this past semester because I had that idea
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to you know after I finalized the uh the schedules and I come up with the idea be like okay so what exactly is something that I'm currently doing and that's actually you know vibe coding using cloud code to build all those tools that I mentioned previously and and I had this idea of like, oh my gosh, I'm not actually teaching that to my students because those are things I've been doing on my daily basis. I didn't pay attention to it. So, I included that in the curriculum. I
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probably would teach it next year to incorporate that the actual curriculum. Um, but this year, I just wanted to put it out there so that people can, you know, look at it and think about it. And one example is vibe coding is the um workshop topic for the incoming you know sevy 2.0 conference in Cornell um I think it was ne it's going to be next week or by the end this week that I don't I don't remember but it's happening very soon. So I think that's also something like people have the interest like people will sign up workshop for and I think that's also important
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to be included in as part of the curriculum. What kind of apps will they be designing? Do they come with their own ideas or is there like a workshop plan what they're going to be building? I think they can come up with their own ideas. So far I don't really want to restrict the students. Um for examp uh for their final project my guideline is you have to find something that's going to be beneficial not for not just for you but also for your classmates and it's whether something that
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you have been doing. So a student presented uh Google notebook LM and show stu the classmates her own workflow of how she utilized those tools in uh class learning. So that's very very beneficial. And then you can also find a tool but you need to you know actually create an account log in and use the tool and show the demonstration to the students because I don't want you to just you know glance through the website and then took some screenshot and then start to talking about it. I want you actually to use the tool understand the pros and cons and share that with your classmates.
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So I think that's also very beneficial for them. So if somebody wanted to replicate this, somebody reads your paper, it's one of the universities that don't have an AI course yet. Um h how would they start? How would you recommend they u them they start? What can they do? Um so in this paper um under different module I also provide um references that link them to you know for example review papers or example papers that can be included into uh teaching material in their course. So that can be a good start point. And the other start point is I'm currently
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involved in the writing of two AI text books. So once those textbook got published um those educators will have more material to work on. And then also the other thing that I'm currently working on right now is to publish my course into a accessible online course. So not just for um veterinary students but for veterinarians who want to learn AI by following this curriculum in a very comprehensive way. they can also sign up for the course and get the learning material. So, these are the things I've been working on. How are you how are you planning to do this? I want
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to sign up. How can I sign up? Yeah, I I've been working with other companies to do this. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. So, once it's out, I bet I'm going to see it on LinkedIn, but let me know so that I can share with my digital puzzle trailblazers as well. So you you say you're working on books. The moment the books are going to be published, probably there's going to be new things that come out. What is the mindset that you would recommend for veterinarians, for people interested in this
00:36:28
in the medical field to adopt? Do you have like some kind of framework that you're using? Yeah, I typically will share this is typically my last slide in my AI presentation. I'll talk about, you know, my viewpoint about AI. So, I'll tell them that, you know, tools are tools are tools. They're just tools and it depends on like how well you use them and not one tool will be suitable for uh various occasions. You know, you have to pick the best one for specific occasions. I will encourage them to have an open mind being like, hey, I can learn something new. This is not
00:37:11
difficult and there are so many tutorial videos online your articles that I wrote to teach you how to use those tools. So I'll encourage you to be open-minded and it doesn't really matter if you continue to use them or not but at least you can try it first. And if you found that okay I'm actually spend you know way more time in using these new tools and that's make me less efficient than using my old method. Then it's totally fine to switch back to your old method. that's okay too
00:37:40
but at least you need to you know initially spend the time and efforts to know this new tools and to see if that will actually you know be a lifecher for you that's always my perspective I don't think there's any harm to learn new things but you will have to use the new things ethically in order to prevent any potential harm I love this like not embrace everything but not Be cautious with everything. Open mindset. I know myself and I know that like every time I see like a capability
00:38:17
of a tool that can solve something that I was struggling with, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, let me embrace it." Then I start using it and I see the limitations. I see the power, but I also see the limitations. Like you say, the you have to choose the fit for purpose tools. any of the tools that is your favorite like something that revolutionize your personal life workflow or anything that's like oh this is my favorite um that's also a very good question um for me one thing I will
00:38:50
also mention in my talk is I am a digital nomads means like I stick to one tool I usually use a multiple tools and compare their results for a sing for a single whole thing and so far I'm using uh clock code more and more often but recently I'm also exploring codeex and try to compare whether um it is better than clock or it's just similar to clock code which which platform is codeex so codeex is a uh coding is kind of like the uh clock code version a chatbt version of clock code It's released by Open AI. It's a tool that can actually integrate chatbt into your computer
00:39:41
among your files and actually doing things for you, not just as a AI chatbot. I was I was trying to migrate from clawed co-work to cloud code and like from chat to co to co-work to code and I got so frustrated I went to perplexity. I don't know if you have checked the newest perplexity tasks. You can have like the recurring tasks. It's more like impatient person version of doing what cloud code or uh can do on your computer without having to install it on the computer. So that's my it's
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exploratory phase for me still uh more to like streamline my life because I love processes but I hate creating them. And now with AI, you basically can like do stuff and the moment you do it twice, if you're using the AI tools, it's going to figure out that it's a process and and and then put it in a structure way. So that's like my something I'm striving for to not reinvent the wheel every time. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm looking forward to the course you're going
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to publish and I'm definitely following everything you discover on LinkedIn. If people want to follow you, I'm going to include your LinkedIn handle in the um in the show notes. Anything else that you want to share? Um, if you are a veterinary student or a newly graduate veterinarians and wanted to do AI research in veterary medicine, I'm currently hiring master student. So, please contact me here. You know, you should put a URL here. Yeah. See, I'm going to I'm going to
00:41:29
direct people your way because I sometimes get inquiries. Oh, was there a research project? So, that's going to be my go-to resource as well. A Dr. True Lab at Texas A&M. Thank you so much, Candice. It was a pleasure talking to you again. Yes. Thank you for having me.