Happiness and the Defined Benefits Plan with David Blumenstein

The type of pension plan you have may play a role in happiness and retirement. According to a 2000 poll conducted by the Center for Retirement Research, retirees with a defined benefit plan were 5.6% happier than retirees with no pension while those with a defined contribution plan were only 4.6% happier. However, retirees with both a defined benefit and a defined contribution were 9% happier than those without a pension. David Blumenstein, President and CEO of Segal, returns to the podcast. David shares his thoughts on why union workers are more satisfied with their retirement plans and how following curiosity instead of passion can lead to personal happiness.

RESOURCES:

In Part 1, David, shares his family's amazing story of hope and perseverance during the Holocaust. Here is the link to that episode:

https://www.buzzsprout.com/412150/11529319-an-inspiring-holocaust-story-and-segal-s-mission.mp3?download=true

For more about David's Family Holocaust story, here are the links:

Regional Emmy Award and National Emmy Nominated Film - Finding Family 

https://vimeo.com/544128302 

David's father donated his trove of Holocaust material to the Cincinnati Holocaust and Humanities Center and the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. Here is a link to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum information.

https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn520490 

For the PDF book co-authored by David's father, which includes the 150 translated letters, David's grandmother wrote his grandfather during the war. Please email traci@multiemployerfunds.com.

This book gives an actual perspective of daily life as a refugee and the desperate struggle of a mother to find a way out of Europe. It includes the broader story of what happened to Jews during WWII and what the world was aware of as the exterminations were being carried out. 

Transcript

Narrator 00:03

This is The World of Multiemployer Benefit Funds with Traci Dority- Shanklin. We believe in demystifying retirement solutions, upholding retiree dignity and contributing to economic stability through union organizing, pension reform and legislative activism. In short, we're devoted to busting myths about the labor movement. If you're interested in the enduring power of labor, well, you've landed in the right place. Experts and activists will share their insights, expertise, and stories. Time is short, so let's get started. 

Traci Shanklin 00:36

Hi, I am so excited to share the second part of my conversation with David Blumenstein. David is the president and CEO of the Segal Group. Segal provides various consulting services including actuarial, health benefits, Human resources, investment, fiduciary insurance, communications, and technology. They have more than 25 offices throughout the US and Canada, all bound together by the shared mission of providing trusted advice that improves lives. David has been with Segal since 1988, serving on Segal's Board of Directors, setting strategy for every aspect of the business and leading the group's executive team. In addition, David specializes in working with and solving problems from multiemployer and international union health, defined benefit and defined contribution plans. David Blumenstein is a frequent speaker at benefits conferences, and other industry forums, and a published author on healthcare and retirement benefit topics. I met David Blumenstein at the 2021 CORPaTH conference, a coalition of pension fund professionals working to perpetuate, protect and expand defined benefit pension plans, as well as educate members on issues critical to the current and future health of pension funds. David was a keynote speaker at this conference. In part one, David shares a moving story about his family's history during the Holocaust, and how his background attracted him to work with multiemployer plans. If you haven't listened to that episode, I encourage you to do so. It will be well worth your time. You'll hear David's personal story, and how it fueled his passion for serving union members. In this episode, you will learn more about the distinctive structure of multiemployer benefit funds and their essential contribution to the lives of hundreds of thousands of working men and women. Let's get into it.

David Blumenstein 02:45

If you look at the design of the multiemployer system, which is labor and management coming together in common cause, to provide health benefits and retirement benefits to working people. For those of us who work in this, you know, with these folks, we know how great they are. And outside of this world, a lot of people don't know what they are. When I go to a cocktail party or I'm hanging out with my friends, and they say, “What do you do?” Usually somebody says, “Oh, he sells insurance.” First of all, I don't sell insurance. Most of our clients are self-funded. But so, what I generally end up saying to them is I work to make sure that benefits are available to working people. And they say, “Oh, that sounds interesting.” And then I say, “Yeah, we have we have labor unions and management folks sitting down together in these rooms to figure out how they can deliver this,” and they go, “Oh, wow, that sounds really cool. How can I do that?” I say, “You got to join a union.” But yeah, it's a great system. I think it works really well. You're right, Traci, when you say that the legacy is the lives you touch, and its millions of lives.

Traci Shanklin 04:05

Yeah, I think it's critical for any professional working with or considering working with multiemployer benefit funds to understand the millions of lives impacted by the work we do with these funds. 

David Blumenstein 04:20

Yeah. 

Traci Shanklin 04:21

How are these multiemployer structures extended to healthcare?

David Blumenstein 04:26

What I was describing before, conceptually apply applies to healthcare and to retirement. They're both protected under the tax code. So, they're tax free in effect. They're both retirement and health benefits. And they go into these trust funds. And, and it's really, it's really the same thing. So, on the retirement side, you have formulas, and you have benefits and you become eligible for benefits and then you are able to accrue benefits over a lifetime. And then you get paid those benefits when you're eligible to receive them. Well, it's the same thing on the health side. There are eligibility rules for getting health benefits. And generally, the health benefits that are received are what you would consider -- hospital, medical, pharmacy, vision, dental, life insurance, those are all generally a part of program and they’re life giving. In fact, when people rank the benefits that they want, right. When you say, “What do you really want?” And first, it's a salary, right. That's the most important thing. We shouldn't forget that that drives everything else. But then, it's health benefits. 

David Blumenstein 05:33

And so, that's really important to people, and these multiemployer funds that we work with -- and we have hundreds. I think we see what works with probably 600 health and welfare funds; there are probably around 1200 of them out there -- something like that. I don't know the exact numbers. I think that's you can fact check me, but I think that's about right. And, and they really, they deliver health benefits that follow people through their entire lives. And it's not only the worker, but the spouse is usually covered and the children. So, it's really for everybody in the family. And I don't know if you're aware of this, but thank goodness for these plans. Because when you look at bankruptcy in this country, the leading cause of bankruptcy is because of the inability to pay medical bills. And I don't have ready statistics on that at my fingertips, but it's a huge problem in this country. And if only for that these plans are doing a service. And they're doing a lot more than that, right? Life-saving surgeries and all that preventive care, which has become a lot more important to our clients over time. Mental health is a huge issue for the entire country. We're certainly seeing that with multiemployer plans. I don't know if I'm answering your question, or if that's where you wanted to head, but...

Traci Shanklin 06:55

You hit the nail on the head. The health benefit is ever present and is a very important benefit that these multiemployer plans have. And the way in which they are run is very similar to the multiemployer pension plan, so that's a jointly managed, and there's a lot of oversight. I think, particularly on the healthcare side, one of the things you mentioned earlier is the audits that you do to ensure that the insurance company is actually doing their job. And having this added layer of security with these audits and a system in place where people can petition or say wait a minute, this should have been paid. It is another piece to the multiemployer benefits packages, that is probably not really thought about. But, on the worker side, they have representatives that come into the stores. They make sure that these union workers don't have any grievances or anything that they need to bring to the attention of the union, because that's what the union is there to do is to protect. It's another layer of protection.

David Blumenstein 08:04

You raise a couple of things I think are really important. There are in most of the arrangements we have now with providers with carriers, like insurance companies and PBMs pharmacy benefit managers. There are performance guarantees, right. So, we do we want to make sure that you're delivering performance. Now that I want to say that also that's not unique to the multiemployer world. That's true for the public sector. It's true for corporations, but it is true. And the other thing I would say is two more things. One is that health benefits are so much more visible than retirement benefits. Because they're used every day. The retirement benefit, oh, well defined contribution plans, you might be looking at a balance that's growing, hopefully growing, maybe not the past few months, but usually it grows over time. And so, people will look at that. But a defined benefit pension plan, it's you don't really care about it until you're going to retire. You're on the verge of retiring. And then you say, “Oh, wow, I'm so glad to have this.” So, it's much more present. 

David Blumenstein 09:00

The other thing you mentioned this earlier, and I and I didn't really touch on it, I'll call the Sentinel effect. That unions and union benefit plan programs and multiemployer plans having the rest of the benefits environment, these are oftentimes looked at as the gold standard. And in order to attract and retain employees, you have to offer at least what's being offered over there in the multiemployer plan. And non-union employers have had to actually do better because they have to compete with these union employers. Now, there are ways in which that doesn't work so well because we know that in certain environments, wages can be there tradeoffs, and the package gets moved around in different ways, but still in the labor movement and these programs, they do act as a kind of floor for the way that workers are treated. It doesn't work perfectly that way, but it is there. And I have to tell you for decades, it felt to me like people who didn't have these benefits, we’re looking at them. And they were saying, “Hey, if I can't have those benefits, then you shouldn't have those benefits.” And it feels to me in the last few years, that's really flipped, and you see the fervor for unionization around the country. And I believe it is a fervor because you're seeing it in not only Amazon and Starbucks, but in McDonald's and other places like that, where all of a sudden, you're seeing the workers coming together, saying, “Hey, I want what those folks have over there. Give those to me, too, Corporation.” And I think that's, I think that's really, it's been a sea change in just the past few years.

Traci Shanklin 10:44

It has, and especially, it seems like post-COVID. I mean, the Great Resignation has been a big conversation. And then you mentioned the Starbucks and the Amazon pressures to organize across the country. So, I wanted to pivot just a minute because I had spoken with Michael Scott, who is the Executive Director of the National Coordinating Committee for Multiemployer Plans. And in March of 2021, President Biden signed the pension reform, the American Rescue Plan into law. So, I've had, as I mentioned, Michael Scott and others who've talked about this ARPA plan, but by way of background for our listeners, just so they know, ARPA provides stimulus measures, many stimulus measures. Most importantly, contained in it is about $90 billion to rescue some of the failing and distressed multiemployer defined benefit plans. So, ARPA created a new program under which the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp, the PBGC, will provide grants in the form of special financial assistance to multiemployer plans with solvency challenges. And I am just looking to see if I can get a little status on the just how ARPA is going, because I know in your work, you have to deal with the regulatory and legislative issues?

David Blumenstein 12:14

Yeah, yes, a large part of our work. And we are very proud to have been working hand in hand with the NCCMP with National Coordinating Committee for Multiemployer Plans, and then Michael Scott, who's the Executive Director there. And I have to say, he's really much more of an expert on this, then I am, and but I'll give you give you a little bit of an update as to what's been happening. Just to first say, the special financial assistance part of ARPA has really been life saving for multiemployer plans, certain multiemployer plans, and millions of participants. And you're right, it's 90 billion, probably closer to 100 billion -- are some of the estimates now. It could and it could go even beyond that. So, it's terrific. And what it really does is it allows the multiemployer pension community to stabilize, and then give a couple of decades at least maybe even 30 years to, to work on some other things that still need to be worked on. But this was a truly life saving for millions and millions of folks in their retirement, I believe there are about 300 plans that could apply for the special financial assistance. So far 25 plans have applied and have been approved. And they've been given six and a half billion dollars. 

David Blumenstein 13:32

So, here's the great news. A program was put in place. The first plans have applied and been approved, and money has been sent to these programs. And retirees are getting benefits that were either cut or reduced or they were about to stop, so that's terrific. There are actually, I believe, six different priority groups. So not all plans can apply all at once. I'm going to just stay at the 30,000-foot level here. That's why only 25 have been approved so far. Ten others have applications in for a total of over $36 billion of relief. Of those 10 plans, one of them makes up about $35 billion of that 36.4 and that’s Central States. But in total, there will be between those that have been approved and between the ones that are under review, there's probably about another $50 billion of applications that will come in and we'll have to go through the approval process. And that's going to happen over the next 18 to 24 months is the time.

Traci Shanklin 14:38

Yeah, you know, I think there is a little bit of controversy going to multiemployer plans and I wanted to just state that unlike the bank bailout, this is something where people have been given, they have sacrificed or taken in the negotiating process, less pay per hour in order to have this benefit at retirement. And then what happened is a lot of conflation of a lot of different bad stuff went on with the market. John Elliott was on my show. And he actually did a great job at really laying out how these plans got into trouble, but that most of it was market conditions. The market has been highly volatile. There's been these big bubble events, and then actuarial assumption rates had been shifting. This is one of those things where the money is actually going to the individuals, which buoys our entire economy. And I think that that's an important thing that is missing in the conversation about the monies that are provided.

David Blumenstein 15:48

Yeah, that's absolutely right. If it's okay for me to build on that a little bit. The NCCMP has done some studies around this where they show the downstream effects of retirees getting pensions and what that means for the economies of the places where those pensions are being paid. And it's huge. So, it has this multiplicative effects. Absolutely right. And that money is going directly to these retirees, which is terrific. And your guest was absolutely correct. I think there are really three reasons that these plans are in trouble. It really having almost nothing to do with it of their own making and effect. It's it was 2008, and the crash of 2008. And the money that was lost there. There were there was deregulation moving through at the same time in certain industries. So that's not doesn't affect every industry. And then also bankruptcies. Companies going out of existence, that were leaving plans with the withdrawal liability that's due them. That's a kind of a technical concept. When a when an employer withdraws from multiemployer plan is supposed to, there's a calculation of money that needs to leave behind. And some of these and the bankruptcy laws in this country are written to have pension plans be last in line. And so, as a result they have was $100. The creditors take the $100 and there's nothing left for pension. So, I'm not sure we're gonna see bankruptcy reform. But that's certainly something that that would be helpful with some of this. But yeah, you're right. And this, this is it was a tradeoff. So, these folks who are working in these plans, they negotiated these dollars in and it was a tradeoff for wages. It's a I see; I hear the controversy. But I have to say I just don't, I just don't see it.

Traci Shanklin 17:24

So, you can't turn on the news today without hearing inflationary concerns beyond the apparent pressure inflation places on the everyday lives of most Americans. Can you explain the impact inflation has on a multiemployer benefit fund where the payments of benefits to the participants?

David Blumenstein 17:45

Yeah, well definitely it has an impact. That's the short answer. When inflation is 8%. and a retiree last year retired with $1,000 a month benefit, now it's worth 8% less, because of that inflation. And most multiemployer pension plans, for example, don't have COLAs, so they don't have cost of living increases built into them. Some do, but they're very rare these days. So, it has an immediate impact. And what can plans do? The plans that can; they can give some benefit increases. There are some programs that are flush enough and are funded well enough that they can do some retiree increases that try to try to mute that. But we also see financial education being really important as well, and is really coming in financial literacy and wellness. We talked about wellness, we're not only -- wellbeing is a broader term. It encompasses not only physical health and mental health, but also financial health and financial literacy. So, we see a lot of that happening so that people can do better with their with their money. Some folks have both a defined benefit plan and a defined contribution plan. Again, just sticking with the retirement side now. So, there is a little bit of an inflation hedge there, right. So those balances in those plans can go up and continue to grow. So, there's a little bit of a hedge there. But we also see it can go the other way. Both bonds and stocks are down right now, which is doesn't happen very often as an investment expert. So that but that can go the other way. That's why the defined benefit pension plan is so important because it does give that benefit that will always be there.

David Blumenstein 19:27

Interesting I have to tell you this, I was at a conference, and I was talking to a guy who does research on defined contribution plans. And this research comes from the Defined Contribution Institutional Investment Association. And they were talking about happiness and retirement and of retirees, and they -- forget about how they measured happiness, which is a whole other discussion, but they were able to measure it. And folks with defined benefit pension plans were the happiest retirees because they knew their money wasn't going to run and out. And that's another reason that the special financial assistance is so important because it bolsters those people in those plans and gets confidence in the system. So, it's a whole other dimension to that. But back to the inflation, so there isn't a heck of a lot that can be done in the, you know, in these plans, but if you're really healthy, they can do some retiree increases. So, it's definitely a concern. 

David Blumenstein 20:20

On the health side of things, it's a little more complicated because as the cost of goods goes up, it just means that the cost of the health plan goes up. The coverage for the individual stays the same unless the trustees make benefit changes, and to make -- and they can make benefit changes. So, they could increase deductibles; they could increase out of pocket maximums; they could increase all co-pays; they can do that in order to write the ship.  But where all of this ultimately gets worked out, Traci, and I'm telling you something you already know, is in the collective bargaining that happens outside of the trust funds. So, the trust funds are downstream from the collective bargaining. So, with inflation, the collective bargaining is changes. And we've seen in all parts of the country, and in many different industries, a kind of record increases in wages, and even in money going into health and welfare. And in some cases, pension plans.

Traci Shanklin 21:19

I have a question that I should probably have the answer to, but I don't. COLAs -- the cost-of-living adjustments -- is that done at the negotiation table? Is that done in the collective bargaining process? Or is that something that's regulatory?

David Blumenstein 21:34

It's a great question. It's a very good question, in fact. It's not regulatory, and it can be done in either place. In some bargaining is bargaining for benefits, and they go, and they say to the trustees, “Okay, here are the benefits you're going to administer.” And then in other situations, I'm oversimplifying here, the bargaining dollars and cents, the money goes in. And then the trustees are in charge of figuring out what the package of benefits will be. So, it can be in either place, but I can tell you a COLAs -- they're not very common these days. 

Traci Shanklin 22:06

Well, I have a personal question. You described yourself in your bio as a committed lifelong learner, and I share your passion for learning. This podcast is one of the places I learn a lot of wonderful things, but what does that mean to you? 

David Blumenstein 22:24

When I was deciding what to study in college, I decided that I did not want my choice to be vocational. I didn't want to go into college, thinking about how I was going to earn a living and structuring my college experience around what I was going to do when I eventually went out into the world when I graduated, and I did whatever I was going to do. So, I decided that I wanted to study philosophy. And that is, and I didn't know that on day one. I came in thinking I want to study one thing, and I went through a couple of iterations. And I eventually studied, I mentioned that I ended on philosophy. And that was probably one of the best decisions I have to say, that I've ever made in my entire life. Because what that has allowed me to do is be able to learn how to learn. I'm not saying you have to be philosophy major in order to do that. But, I learned how to learn. And what I realized about myself was that is what I really enjoy in life, continuing to learn new stuff. And it just so happens that I went into consulting. And if you were to look at consulting, it's probably like the closest thing that there is in the private sector to a university, to an institution of higher education, because you're constantly having to learn new stuff when you're in the consulting world. And that's not to say you don't have to learn new stuff in every world. But it's, that is, it's fast moving, it changes quickly. And you've really got to be really good to be on top of stuff. And so, my life has been guided as I look back on it. It didn't always feel this way as I was in the middle of it, but was really guided by curiosity. 

David Blumenstein 24:19

I know some people when they are 10 years old, they know exactly what they want to do. They have a passion for something, and they go off and they do it. I want to be an engineer. I want to be a doctor. I want to whatever it is. They know it and then they do that. And that's what they end up doing with their lives. Or they're a musician, whatever it is. But I wasn't like that. I was just interested in a lot of different stuff. And so, I think, and a lot of people talk about find your passion, and that works for some people, but I think it doesn't work for everybody and it didn't really work for me. Curiosity worked better for me. And I’ve heard other people talk about this, too, so maybe I'll start a curiosity podcast or something, because that, for me, curiosity is really what keeps me interested and focused. And I try to follow my curiosity. That is also -- it's a low bar, it's “Oh, I'm interested in that,” “Oh, let me check it out.” I don't have to be passionate about it. Sometimes, those things turn into passions. So, like, my work has really turned into a passion, but didn't really start that way. And I have other parts of my life that way as well. I'm a meditator, and have engaged in spiritual practice as a way to keep myself grounded and balanced. And I read broadly, and I listen broadly. I'm really a podcast listener. I don't do as much reading now as I used to, because I'm just so busy being a CEO, but I can drop in podcasts when I'm doing other stuff. And I just love learning about new stuff. And it's, and what that does is it keeps me fresh, so that I'm not approaching even the same problem the same way. I've heard something different, that's changed me, so that helps me solve a problem differently.

Traci Shanklin 26:11

That's a great answer. And I have to say that I loved the answer. And I loved it, because it gave me a sense of freedom in the way I am. And I have never heard it said that way. And I've always sort of questioned what I feel like all the time is a jack of all trades, and a master of none. And I really -- the idea that we should pursue our curiosity because I do it. I mean, like you said, sometimes that curiosity becomes passion on my other. My other side of my world is my children, because of things that I've learned. The journey that we've been on in our in our family. I have had immense curiosity in parenting and all those things, but then it becomes a passion of mine to share. My other podcast is to share with the world the things that I've learned, and the moments in which I wish somebody had told me something that I wasn't finding right away or wasn't prepared for, you know. And anyway, I really love that. Thank you. 

David Blumenstein 27:16

I think that's very deep, what you're saying. And, first, that sometimes the things that that life serves to us that we don't really like it to be on our plate, but that adversity sometimes allows us to grow in ways that we weren't expecting. And that sounds funny to say it that way, but I think it's true. And the other thing is that, that the passion is such a high bar. I feel like passion can be a trap. I think Madeline L'Engle who wrote A Wrinkle in Time -- I think everybody in my generation read that when in the fourth or fifth grade and she said something great. And she, by the way, she's just a brilliant essayist, as well, if you've never read her work, she's terrific. She said, “Inspiration usually comes during work, not before it.” So, it's really, it's an invocation to, to delve into something, and not to hold yourself to the standard of having it figured out before you start. And that's, to me, that's the creative process. A lot of times, for me, my greatest creativity comes after I'm already two hours into something, and I feel completely lost. I feel like, “Hey, this, I don't really know what I want to even say here.” And then only after having done that work, say, “Oh, here's what I really want to say.” There's a patience that curiosity that comes along with curiosity, that I think doesn't, isn't always there when we talk about passion.

Traci Shanklin 28:41

Is there anything that we may have missed that you'd like to share with our listeners? Or is there anything you would like the listeners to know about you or Segal?

David Blumenstein 28:53

We've covered so much. I mean, there are particular topics that we certainly could go into more deeply, like we didn't talk about mental health and the mental health crisis and the fact that in the construction trades, the suicide rate is twice what it is in the general population, and almost three times the national average, all these, we didn't go deep into any of the kinds of those kinds of issues. 

Traci Shanklin 29:16

I would love to have that conversation. Mental health is a passion of mine. I've done a number of episodes on mental health. I think it is a crisis. And I'm grateful, frankly, that the blinders are coming off and that we're acknowledging that mental health is very much a something that people deal with in their lives daily. I don't, frankly, as a mom who has dealt with some mental health issues. I feel like every other parent I talked to tells me that their child has had some kind of crisis that evolves in the mental health capacity, whether it's a small thing to a large thing. It's a really important conversation to have and I didn't know that in the Building Trades that that was the case.

David Blumenstein 30:03

Yeah. And veterans, too. And a lot of veterans are in the building trades. 70% of mental health is untreated.

Traci Shanklin 30:08

And it's in the fact that people are out there talking about it. And hopefully healthcare providers, the mental health care providers are doing a better job at letting people know that they have services available and benefits available. That's been a struggle on my side is navigating that is been tricky. I could get on a soapbox about that because just if I didn't have the support system I had, that I would have been able to navigate it the way I've had to navigate it. And it's taken a really proactive approach on my side.

David Blumenstein 30:43

You're not alone. And there's a lot now, telemedicine and telehealth and all that has just been, especially during the pandemic has just been a lifesaving for so many people. And a real that's been a real change as well.

Traci Shanklin 30:57

Well, and I'd love to if you're willing, I'd love to bring you back and have that conversation because I think it could be a really important conversation.

David Blumenstein 31:06

Yeah, I have some ideas about maybe making it a not a dialogue, maybe a trialogue. And Patrick Kennedy, who's a real advocate for mental health. 

Traci Shanklin 31:14

Well, thank you, David, for being our guest today. You are such a light in the multiemployer benefit funds world, and it's been a privilege. And thank you so much for sharing your story and your passion for changing lives. I really appreciate you.

David Blumenstein 31:32

Oh, thank you, Traci. It's been a real pleasure to talk with you, and I'm happy to do at any time.

Traci Shanklin 31:39

This concludes part two of the conversation with David Blumenstein, President, and CEO of Segal. I hope you enjoyed hearing this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it. I learned so much from David about how genuinely innovative multiemployer benefit plans are and the downstream positive effect they have on beneficiaries. Not to mention they establish a baseline for non-union companies. I share his passion for mental health, and I look forward to bringing David back to dive deeper into this vital subject. Personally, I am taking away permission to be curious. 

Traci Shanklin 32:17

If you haven't listened to part one of my conversation with David Blumenstein, please go to our website at www.multiemployerfunds.com. That's www.multiemployerfunds.com, and check it out. One last thing before I let you go, my goal is to ensure multiemployer benefit funds find the highest quality professionals to help them grow their funds. In my work with several boutique money managers entering the multiemployer business segment, I have found some common misconceptions and avoidable mistakes. If you are an investment firm considering expansion in the multiemployer funds business segment, please visit www.sisupartnersllc.com That is www.sisupartnersllc.com, and check out our multiemployer strategy blueprint consulting service. The purpose of this program is to assist investment firms in evaluating your internal ROI if you launch a dedicated multiemployer benefit funds client development strategy. Thanks for listening. 

Narrator 33:40

And that's it for this week's episode of The World of Multiemployer Benefit Funds. We'd love to have your support you can show your support by sharing episodes making comments or heading over to www.patreon.com/multiemployerfunds for other partnership opportunities. Thank you for joining us and we look forward to next time.

Disclaimer 34:03

Sisu Partners, LLC host The World of Multiemployer Benefit Funds podcast, which contains content and discussions that have been prepared for informational and educational purposes only. No listener should assume that any discussion on this podcast serves, as the receipt of, or substitute for, personalized advice from an investment professional as the information provided on the podcast is not intended to be investment, legal or tax advice. The company is not an SEC registered investment advisor and does not solicit clients or raise capital for money managers. Sisu Partners offer securities through XT Capital Partners, LLC.