The Science Pawdcast

Science Chat: Decoding Feline Behavior with Cat Expert Dr. Mikel Delgado

• Jason Zackowski

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Curious about the mysterious world of feline behavior?

That's exactly what we're scratching at in our intriguing chat with cat behavior expert, Dr. Mikel Delgado. She opens up about his unconventional journey from punk rock to academia, and how her passion for cats led her  to establish Feline Minds, while also dabbling in music that pays homage to neighborhood felines.

Do you find yourself sneezing around your four-legged friend, yet can't resist cuddling them?

We've got you covered as we unravel the science behind cat allergies, touching on personal experiences and the potential dietary solutions for managing them. If you've ever wondered if your pet cat would rather work for their food just like their wild counterparts, join us as we delve into the concept of contra freeloading in our feline friends.

Additionally, we discuss the importance of mental and physical stimulation for cats, how to create an enriched environment for them, and clever ways to train them using positive reinforcement.

Our nocturnal companions surely have their own quirks, don't they? We shed light on the intriguing behaviors of our feline companions, especially their playtime antics. We delve into how play mimics hunting behavior, tips on choosing suitable toys, and managing playtime for cats with different needs. As we explore cats' perception of time and their fascinating nighttime behaviors, you'll find practical tips to manage the night howlers. The episode concludes with a heartening chat about providing valuable information for cat owners and some tricks of the trade to care for your feline friend better. Prepare to be charmed and educated about the captivating world of cats in our delightful episode!

Dr. Delgado's Links:
https://twitter.com/mikel_maria

https://mikeldelgado.com/

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Speaker 2:

Hello science enthusiasts. My name is Jason Zakowski. I'm the dog dad of Bunsen and Beaker, the science dogs on social media.

Speaker 3:

My co-host is Hi there, I'm Chris Zakowski. I am the dog mom to Bunsen and Beaker and the cat mom to Ginger.

Speaker 2:

Every week in SciChat, we bring you an amazing expert to enthrall you with their area of knowledge. We're going to get a little catty tonight because we have a cat expert, a cat behavior expert, Dr Michael Delgado. Doc, how are you doing tonight?

Speaker 1:

I'm doing great. Yeah, it's a holiday week, so I'm ready to have a couple days off and eat a lot of food.

Speaker 2:

Touche, that's right. You guys have your Thanksgiving this weekend. You have American Thanksgiving coming up soon American Thanksgiving is. We had our Thanksgiving, the Canadians had it in October right. Yeah, yeah, we had it early. We have our Thanksgiving like a month early, and in the next week we have our Christmas. Everything's just a month early. It's very weird up here. No, just kidding.

Speaker 1:

Canadians are impatient. When do you have Christmas music?

Speaker 2:

Well, it's basically winter all year round, so it never stops, of course. Welcome to the show. I was wondering if you could tell everybody a little bit just about your training in science.

Speaker 1:

Sure, yeah, well, I did not have a traditional science training. I was a college dropout, so I was a reentry student, as I think we're called. I took a 20, almost 20 year break from college after I dropped out to move to California and punk bands and working in animal shelter, which eventually led me to go back to school. So I completed my bachelor's degree in psychology with a minor in statistics in 2010, and then I went to grad school at UC Berkeley where I did my PhD dissertation on Fox Squirrel behavior, and graduated from UC Berkeley in 2017, did a three and a half year postdoc at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine where I could focus all of my energy on cat research. And yeah, I've been doing cat behavior consulting for about 23 years. I started when I was working in the animal shelter and founded my business, feline Mines in 2008. And that's the rest is history. I guess, yeah, just it's all cats all the time now, or I try at least.

Speaker 2:

You kind of glossed over something. A couple of things that were we did. We previously chatted on the science podcast your record your episode hasn't come out yet. You played punk in a punk band and I'm doing background on you. I went to your about section on your website and you're like rocking out is a bass guitar, Is that? Did I get it right?

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, I played bass guitar, and I can kind of fake it at some other instruments, but bass was one I could actually play mostly.

Speaker 2:

Are there some of your? Do you have some like? Do you just riff on like bass from music today, Like, do you have some? Like do you have some of that stuff that you love to play from like modern music, or do you just kind of like pick at it?

Speaker 1:

I mean, I definitely pick at it. I'm right now working on an album in my head of songs about my neighborhood. So because my boyfriend and I go for walks in the neighborhood a couple of times a day and so you know we see, at least you know. One of the songs is called I know you have a cat and it's about the cats that we sometimes see in the windows, but then they disappear.

Speaker 1:

So it's really about my quest to know every cat in the neighborhood, whether they're sitting in a window or they're a kitty who has outdoor access and, you know, likes to come and say hi. So so, yeah, I think I don't really play formally. I like to, you know, noodle once in a while. But you know, once I went back to school, I did really cut back on the rock and roll lifestyle for various reasons. Also, I was of the age where staying up until 2 am was really not working out for me very well. So, you know, if you want to be in a punk band, you got to be ready to party, so, and I really like to go to bed by 10.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's where I'm at right now. Like 10, 10 or 11, it's like time to go to bed most days. Yeah, there's no 11 for me, it's 10.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do like to listen to music, a lot Like I like to listen to modern music. I listen to KEXP, which is a community-supported radio station out of Seattle, and they have great music. And then CalX is the UC Berkeley radio station and I was a DJ there when I was in grad school. I think we maybe talked about. Did we talk about that before?

Speaker 2:

We did. What was your? What was your DJ name? I told all my students this after we chatted.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, f-bomb, dj, f-bomb, yeah, which really like because you know they were very strict about the FCC Like there's certain words you cannot say or play because you can get fined. And the manager of the radio station really had to think long and hard about whether or not she would let me have my DJ name be F-bomb, but she, she gave in. So but yeah, music is still a big part of my life. As a listener, I went and saw the Linda Lindas last week, who are a teen punk band from LA. They're fantastic. It was really fun and they also love cats, so I love them.

Speaker 2:

Second question, doc what? Why cats? What was it about cats that set you on this journey, now to like, become, get a doctorate? And you know they're in animal behavior, animal psychology, animal everything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have definitely been into cats since I was a little kid. I've never had a dog, I've never lived with a dog. I really know, aside from theoretical, like my experience with dogs is strictly like book learning and like dogs in the street. So I'm very much, I mean I love all animals. I mean I haven't, you know, when I meet a dog I'm very happy, but I'm definitely a cat person like through and through, and that's been since I was a very small child and I was not allowed to have cats because my mom was allergic until she finally gave into the begging when I was a teenager.

Speaker 1:

So I got my first cat, kiddums. I mean I had a. Well, that's not true at all. Actually I had a few childhood cats that you know. We lived in rural areas. There were different times. Those cats did not live long lives, so that's just, those were the facts of life. They were family pets were a little different back then and when I got kiddums, who was my cat I got as a teenager, he was very spoiled and he moved with me to California and so really it's been a lifelong fascination with just how cool and beautiful cats are and the purr is, you know, it's very magical and soothing and I don't know. I just always thought they're really cool. And my best friend in middle school and junior high and high school her family had five cats and I stayed at her house a lot because they had a lot of cats, so that was like where I wanted to be. So that was kind of the I think that was the model lifestyle for me was like having having lots of cats is pretty cool. So then when I started, so when kiddums died, so he was the cat I got as a teenager. He died in 2000.

Speaker 1:

And that was when I started volunteering at the animal shelter, because I was, I mean, I had another cat but I was like I kind of need more cats in my life and maybe I need to meet some more cats in case I want to adopt another cat. So I started volunteering at the animal shelter, which was the San Francisco SPCA, and I volunteered there so much that eventually they offered me a job. That was how I got a job. I just hung out and made them hire me, basically. So, and there I worked in the cat behavior department they actually had.

Speaker 1:

I mean, a lot of shelters now have behavior programs, but this was 23 years ago. It was very unusual for a shelter to have a department strictly dedicated to cat behavior. I mean, there's a big dog training program at the shelter, several dog trainers that worked with the dogs in the shelter and taught public classes. But the shelter also has a cat behavior program. So we did public classes for cat owners. We had a hotline where people could call if they were having behavior problems with their cat and we also did assessments on the cats in the shelter so making sure that they were, you know, happy and working with their behavior if they had any behavior issues like aggression or fear. So we were really trying to do behavior modification so that they would show well and get adopted into good homes.

Speaker 2:

So very cool. Now I do feel like I am the mum of your story. I am the ogre that did not let my family have a cat because I was allergic to cats and then I do. I think I've told you this story. Everybody knows this story.

Speaker 2:

Chris used my science against me. I was talking about this food that I did a breakdown of this food that binds with the FelD1 protein. That's usually the thing that gives people an allergic reaction and she's like well, it works. In your study that means we can probably get a cat. It was a lot more complicated than that and Chris is going to fact check me because she always does Long story short. Now we have a cat and they're really cool. I have to tell you I am like you with dogs. I did not live with cats. I knew nothing of cats, aside from I would see them and I would know they would make my face puff up. Yeah, but they're very different than dogs. I can watch a cat move all day. Is that part of it for you? They're so graceful. They just move like little ninjas.

Speaker 1:

They can. They can also be very, I don't know. My cats that I have right now are kind of dorky. They're not super ninja like, but yeah, I mean I think there's a certain grace and beauty about them that maybe is, I guess, in my mind, like a dog is a little bit dorky.

Speaker 2:

Oh, ginger move like. Compared to our dogs, ginger moves like an ice skating ballerina and they are, like you know, construction workers with 12, 12 inch boots clumping around the house.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, so did the diet take care of your allergies?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm not allergic to that. She's actually sitting with me right now. Whenever I do the show or I do podcasting, she comes down to the room downstairs and she hangs out with me. It's super cool.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that diet is like the science that we've all been waiting for, because, I mean, it is like I think and this is something that comes up a lot, because people think that they're allergic to the cats here- no. And it's not that what they're allergic to. I mean, they're inadvertently allergic, because they're allergic to the Faldi, one protein which is in cats saliva, and cats groom themselves a lot.

Speaker 2:

All the time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's like their favorite thing to do, and so they're just spreading that protein all over their bodies, and now it's on their hair, and so in a sense you're allergic to their fur, but that's not the cause of the allergy. And so when they identified the protein and were able to make the food that binds with it, I mean that's like a really cool like, let's make it so that everybody can have a cat, as long as their cat likes the food.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I did like. About three months ago I broke down a study. They're working on one for dogs that does the same thing for the dog protein in their saliva. They don't groom themselves as much so.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so it's not as serious concern. But I mean, yeah, I mean so many people either live. I mean, if I had cat allergies, maybe I do, I don't know. But I'm kind of congested, I just assume that's normal. But you know, I mean I've had people who really loved cats. Some people have done the allergy shots, but I've also known people who just really suffered because they loved their cats so much and could not live without them, and so to have that option, plus all the people that said used it as an excuse. So what's really interesting too is that they've they have done. There was a study Gosh, I'm probably going to mess it up but basically it found that there was a kind of a placebo effect with the allergy shots, if I remember correctly, and that people improved regardless of whether they got the shot or the placebo. They reported because they didn't know which they got. So they reported fewer cat allergies. So it made me think that maybe the people who think they're allergic are faking it.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I see.

Speaker 1:

It's just my suspicion, but anyway.

Speaker 2:

Chris can attest I was. I was allergic to cats. For real right, chris, I don't know. Are you here, chris?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, 100%. I had a cat named Poco and I loved her and she did not love Jason.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 3:

We. She lived to be over 20 years old and when she died, oh, it was the saddest day. And then in our family we do a pet cemetery, so everybody was there and we buried her and we all put a little note in with her, and Jason on his note he said thank you for only biting me once. So, yeah, I loved her and she, she I don't know, she's beautiful, she was a beautiful cat, but you did not get along with her very well, Jason.

Speaker 2:

I tried. She just wanted to just eat me. She wanted to destroy me Plus you were allergic. Yes, so I made it doubly a thing. Yeah, but I suffered every time we hung out when we were dating. I would like get a swollen eye face.

Speaker 1:

You're like, in order to get with Chris, I have to get with this cat.

Speaker 2:

That's right. It was worth it because she's she's a gem.

Speaker 1:

There you go, and now you have the cat.

Speaker 2:

That's right. Yeah, ironically enough, the cat probably hangs out the most with me of everybody in the family.

Speaker 3:

She loves your computer bag.

Speaker 2:

Oh man, she. She loved my computer bag. I don't know what it is about my computer bag. She loves to sleep on it.

Speaker 1:

Cats love to lay on things. I mean, one of my cats is really obsessed with a backpack. It's it's a bed, basically, if it's not on someone's back, it's it's a bed.

Speaker 2:

So cute.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean basically, if you put something on the floor, the chances that a cat will sit on it are fairly high. Like a box a box, a bag, I don't know. I mean, I feel like a piece of yeah, a piece of a wrapping paper that came in your, your order, from your favorite online retailer. Yeah Cats will sit on it.

Speaker 2:

I love it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So if you're just joining us for side chat, we have a guest today, dr Michael Delgado. We'll take speaker requests just after the interview section, so we do see some speaker requests. I just want to get to a little bit of the science. We've been having fun talking about talking about cats. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your your. You did some research on if cats are freeloaders and I had my mind was blown as we were talking on the podcast, because I covered that story on my podcast and I did a TikTok video that got like 250,000 views and you were the person that did the study and you were talking about it. I was like, hey, I know that study. And then you're like, yeah, that was my study. And I was like, oh my God, I'm talking to the scientist that did the thing. That's a bit of a preamble, but I was wondering if you could talk to us about freeloading in cats.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So before we talk about freeloading, I'm going to define a term called contra freeloading, which is the tendency of captive animals to prefer to work for their food rather than get it for free. And so often they'll use foraging enrichment with zoo animals, animals and sanctuaries where they have to somehow interact with the device to extract food. And there's been several studies in several species, including wolves and bears and pigeons and humans and rats, and in all of those studies the animals would rather work for their food than get it for free. And there's different theories about why that may be so Like. Is this a cure for boredom? And it's, or, you know, maybe it's just stimulating some natural behaviors, because animals naturally forage or hunt for food. So the question is, you know, is the same true of some of our companion animals? And there's actually no study published about this in Dogs Yet, although I'm pretty sure there's one on the horizon.

Speaker 1:

But there was one study of cats from 1971. And it was a very small study. It was six cats that were housed in a laboratory. They were kept at about 85% body weight, which is pretty common for captive animals that are used in experiments. So they're very hungry and food motivated and they basically gave them the choice between pressing a lever to get food dispensed into a bowl, or there's a bowl of food, and all six of the cats in the study preferred to eat all the food from the bowl rather than push a lever to get kibbles. And the title of the paper was Feline Invalence, which basically says it all, like OK, these cats are lazy.

Speaker 1:

And I was like OK, so the study has six very hungry cats in it, and hunger is definitely a factor that reduces contra-free loading behavior, so it reduces the tendency to work for food. If you're very, very hungry, you just want to eat. So my first thought was like well, maybe these cats were just too hungry and they're stressed in a laboratory and also there's only six cats, that's a pretty small sample size. So are we going to just say that cats are the only species tested that do not contra-free load, which is basically what the conclusion was, because all other tested species seem to like to work for food.

Speaker 1:

So I was trying to. You know, do cats a solid, and I'm also a big fan of food puzzles. So food puzzles are foraging enrichment for cats. So these are devices that your cat can maybe roll around. You can put a ball hole in it, you put kibble inside or something more like a slow feeder bowl or a tray that the cat has to like, push food around or, you know, scoop it out of cups. Just like you know, people give dogs, kongs or other similar enrichment right.

Speaker 1:

So, I often recommend food puzzles for the clients I work with. I use them with my own cats, and so I was pretty certain that I could prove this 1971 study wrong because it was so old. Like you know, let's update the science and I had an undergrad who I wanted to help me with a senior thesis, and so we talked about, kind of some of the different projects I was interested in getting done. So one of the things you do when you're a scientist or postdoc is you often mentor students. So I was lucky to work with a lot of vet students and undergrads at UC Davis and we were able to publish some papers together and do some cool science and at the same time they got to learn about the process of science, which is for people that don't do science. There's a lot of steps. You have to decide what you want to study and then you have to get approval. So if you're going to work with animals or people, you have to get approval from the different boards at the university, so the Animal Care and Use Committee, or what's called the IRB, which is the Institutional Review Board. So these are people who basically make sure that the research you're doing is humane. You're not going to make people cry, you're not going to make cats sad, you're not going to hurt anybody and that you're following all the guidelines as far as refinement and reducing the use of animals. That's harmful.

Speaker 1:

And of course, we were working with cats in homes. So that was what I wanted to do was let's see if this contra-free loading thing holds up. If we study cats in a home environment where they're not starving, they shouldn't be too bored. I mean, they might be a little bit bored because some cats don't get enough play and mental stimulation, but it's a comfortable environment. We don't expect them to be extremely stressed and let's see if they'll contra-free load.

Speaker 1:

So we settled on a food puzzle called the Trixie Tunnel Feeder. If anybody is looking for a food puzzle for their cats, it's a pretty good basic one. It's a round thing with little cups that the cat has to lure, little tunnels that the food can go in and the cat can scoop it out. And then we got trays of the exact same size that were round. So we had a tray that was the same size as the puzzle. So the puzzle was round and the tray was round.

Speaker 1:

And to test contra-free loading, we had the cat owners test their cats in the home. So we gave them cameras so they could set up cameras. So we had all the owners were doing the data collection for us, which is a great way to do science. I mean, we had to train them, but it's nice for the cats and it's great for us. So they would set up the video camera and they would put the tray and the food puzzle side by side and do 10 trials over the course of three or four days with their cat. So, depending on their cat's normal feeding schedule, they would do two to four sessions a day with their cat and they would put the same amount of food in the tray as they did in the puzzle. And over the course of those 10 trials we also randomized if the puzzle was on the right side or the left side, because sometimes animals have a side preference. So you want to make sure you're controlling for that to the extent you can. And we just basically said OK, hold your cat a couple feet away, equidistant from the tray and the puzzle, let them go and just record them for half an hour and see what they do.

Speaker 1:

So we were interested in a few measures of the cat's behavior. So first was which did they go to first, the tray or the food puzzle? And then we wanted to know which one did they spend more time at. So did they spend more time hanging out by the tray or by the food puzzle? And then we also wanted to know which one did they eat more food from. So we had them measure the amount of food they put in and measure any food that was left over. And so those were measures of contra-free loading, because we wanted to see first of all, yeah, does the cat seem more interested in the food puzzle, do they spend more time at the food puzzle and do they eat more food from the food puzzle? That would give us some evidence for contra-free loading, a desire to work for their food Right. So we had 20 cats enrolled originally. Three did not make it past the original training phase, which was just will you eat food from a puzzle at all? So three cats were just like.

Speaker 2:

So they flunked out, they just failed yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we're not going to force them to starve right for the study, so they got to at least. Yeah, we're trying to not cause any stress for the kitties. It should be fun to feed the cat and owner.

Speaker 1:

So if they would not eat food from the puzzle they could not be in the study. So we lost three subjects right off the bat. It just wouldn't do it. And of these 17 remaining cats, they overwhelmingly went to the tray first. They spent more time at the tray and they ate more food from the tray. And in fact an additional three cats ate hardly any food from the puzzle during the study. So cats are freeloaders. They do not want to go through.

Speaker 1:

It was basically the conclusion that we came to. I mean, there's a couple of things you could argue right Like. One would be that if the point of foraging enrichment is to stimulate natural feeding behaviors, a tray of dry food and a round stationary puzzle of dry food does not stimulate predatory behavior. So maybe if we used a food puzzle that was mobile or somehow involved something more similar to how cats hunt or play, maybe we would get more engagement from the cats. It's possible if we use treats instead of their regular food or if we used a different food puzzle or right.

Speaker 1:

But the data was sad to me because, like I said, I'm a fan of food puzzles. I do still recommend them, although with caveats. But it was like I was really hoping to prove that cats were not the lazy species tested and that they were at that person who did that I don't even know if that person who did that 1971 study probably not even alive to see that I confirmed his results in House Cats. But yeah, it was a little sad but also it's funny Like everybody laughs when I tell them the results.

Speaker 2:

Oh, Doc, doc, I can, if I, if somebody was to say hey, jason, what are the top five stories you've ever covered on the Science Podcast? This one was one of my favorites. I laughed aloud and I went through your methodology. I read the whole study Like sometimes I skim it. I've read everything, I just ate the whole thing up. It was hilarious.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it was funny, so, anyway, yeah. What it taught me, though, was like some cats really are not going to possibly use food puzzles, and so I always, when I'm say, working with a client who has a cat that I think would benefit from food puzzles, well, what makes me think a cat would benefit from food puzzles? One the cat is very food motivated, so they're like one of those cats that is like obsessed with food, eats all their food super fast, like always, just, you know, meowing for food, that sort of thing, because a food puzzle can slow them down. So that's beneficial for the cat. And the other thing is, like the cat is super active, like they're kind of driving their owner bananas because they want to pull all the time or they're keeping them up at night.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I would go bananas too If Ginger just decided to run around at night and keep me awake. I would, I don't know. I don't know what I would do. Chris knows that I have a hard time falling asleep.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, my sleep is very precious to me, so it's very important to me that my cats sleep through the night.

Speaker 1:

But, you know, or cats that are just kind of getting into trouble, you know, like the kind of cat that learns how to open a cabinet, or the kind of cat that is shredding cardboard boxes all day, like these cats need something to do.

Speaker 1:

And so the way I think of it is like, you know, when you have a cat who's young and active and needs a ton of mental stimulation and physical stimulation, you want to look at their day, kind of like we look at our own. I mean, I don't know about you, but you know, the first thing I do when I hit my desk is kind of look at my Google calendar and see what meetings I have, what things I have slotted in for different times of the day, and so if you think about our cats, their Google calendar is like blank, and so we kind of want to fill it with like, okay, from 7 to 8 am I work my food puzzle, and then 8 to 9, I do a little bird watching in the window and then I take a nap, and then, you know, so we're giving them.

Speaker 2:

I love that idea I'm thinking of making like a joke like a cat and planning its like day on a computer. Like that's a, that joke writes itself, doc.

Speaker 1:

It does it does you know? When you're especially, I think, like during the pandemic, when so many people switch to work from home suddenly they're face to face with their cat all day and the cat's like, hey, like I can milk this for more attention, or like more food, or you know whatever. But there was a lot of kind of headbutting between human and cat.

Speaker 2:

I read about that. I read about that. I didn't necessarily. The cats weren't necessarily a fan that the humans were home all the time.

Speaker 1:

No, and also doing things like you know, trotting on the computer keyboard and interrupting. I mean, you know, it's funny when a cat interrupts your Zoom.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I love that, I love that.

Speaker 1:

Of course, yeah, but you know there's definitely some people were probably sitting on the couch all day and the cat was like, hey, I usually sit on the couch from nine to five. Like what are you doing? I think it was a big change for some cats. So I like to think of like for, especially, like I said, a cat who's young, active, needs a lot of stimulation, like a food puzzle and giving them several small meals throughout the day that they have to work for is a great way to just keep them busy.

Speaker 1:

It's just like with dogs, right, like we kind of expect, like I mean, you hear it all the time a tired dog is a good dog, you know. It's like you wanna give your dog exercises and training and mental stimulation and we kind of just assume that cats are untrainable and lazy and, like I said, okay, maybe there are some cats that are not good candidates for food puzzles or contra-free loading. Like if your cat is older and doesn't eat very well, well, maybe you only use the food puzzle once in a while for treats, kind of a special like versus like one of my cats, she gets all of her dry food out of puzzles. I need to slow her down. I need to keep her busy as long as possible. So it's yeah, it's good for her and it's good for me.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I just I've mentioned this before to people I just treated our cat, ginger, like a dog. Like when we got her, I just assumed she was a dog. So I was like I called her with treats, I made her sit, I put costumes on her and she's like. She's like people are like I can't believe your cat does that. I'm like I don't know. I just treat her like a dog, like you can teach cats to do stuff Absolutely. When it's time to do social media photos, ginger comes and she sits on her mark, like she has a little mark next to the dog. So it's like super cute. She comes and she and one thing that I love about her is she holds eye contact with the camera Like so good compared to the other dogs, like they just she just stares into the camera.

Speaker 1:

It's great for photos Like you said, compared to the other dogs, like she's one of the dogs.

Speaker 2:

Oh sorry, Well, I do treat her like a dog.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I think you know it is really helpful to do some training with your cat. Now I don't like I wouldn't say treat your cat like a dog.

Speaker 2:

I'm sorry, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing so.

Speaker 1:

No, I mean, I think that you have the training is definitely like, yes, that's a time to treat your cat like a dog, from a kind of well, I think, just because cats and dogs are the most popular pets that people naturally like are always trying to compare them Like which one's smarter, which one's cuter, and it's like which one shows love better, and it's like they're just different species. So we need to kind of respect they have slightly different needs. Yeah, but as you know, I do think like with training you do get more of that, like eye contact and connection with the human, because they've learned to interact with you for positive outcomes, like treats, and just like we want to reinforce good behaviors in our dogs, we like to reinforce good behaviors because it makes those behaviors more likely to occur in the future. So when you pay attention to your cat for sitting quietly or scratching their scratching post and you ignore them when they climb on the counter, they are learning that certain things lead to good outcomes and other things don't get them attention.

Speaker 1:

So I'm definitely a proponent of positive reinforcement training methods and of using them with cats to the extent that cat owners are willing. I've had some clients that really enjoy training with their cats and do it really well and just pick it up, and other people who really struggle with it. And for those owners, I'm going to focus more on functional stuff like training your cat to like the cat carrier or training your cat to let you touch their paws so you can trim their nails right. So more functional stuff as opposed to like twirling or like my cats can ring a bell, like that was like my, that's cute.

Speaker 1:

It's a cute trick, unless you forget and leave the bell out, and then it's not cute, but you have to put the bell away or they will just ring it incessantly. So I think there's different ways you can kind of approach training and I think some cats really enjoy it and certainly you know, there's cat agility. There's like a whole world of cat agility. For people that what? Yeah, oh yeah, there's a whole. It's a thing.

Speaker 2:

Well, they can jump like crazy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, they can. They do the similar. You know, they've got the hoops and they've got the ramps and they have to do a clean run and they can't use food. They can only use an interactive toy to get the cat to go through. That's cute.

Speaker 2:

I guess we did that, Chris. I set up obstacles for the pets, didn't I? That was really popular on social media.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, they loved it, they really liked doing it yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it just goes vertical and jumps over all those.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I set up these beer cups like our solo cups, like a maze, and the dogs and the cat had to go through them and they loved it. Ginger just cheated. She's jumped over everything, so I had to build a higher.

Speaker 1:

Is that eating or is that working smarter?

Speaker 2:

That's working smarter. That's right. So there's some speaker requests. Doc, I've got one more question for you and then we'll bring some folks up, like Jen CIC, you got a speaker, you're asking to talk and Rachel, I'll definitely bring some people up. My last question is I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about you have a book coming out next year. Is that correct? That's? Right yes, tell us about your book.

Speaker 1:

I'm excited to tell you about my book. My book is called Play With your Cat and it is coming out in March March 5th to be exact, 2024 on Charter Paragy, which is a random house imprint, and it's available for pre-order now if anyone wants to be like first to get it. And this is kind of like the book I've wanted to write for a really long time. I decided several years ago that play was kind of my passion topic when it came to cats, and that was partly because so many people that I worked with I would go to their homes and we'd talk about their cat's behavior problems and their cat's behavior, and so many of them would say, oh, he doesn't really like to play. And what I realized was that, well, I would show them. So I'm like, okay, well, let me see, I would always bring toys with me when I would do home visits and so every console whether it was a 17 year old cat or a six month old cat, I could get them to play.

Speaker 2:

So what I?

Speaker 1:

recognize? Yeah, they do. And that's because play is basically we're mimicking hunting behavior. We're providing them with a hunting experience that doesn't involve killing anything, but we do have to move the well. We have to pick the right toy, we have to move the toy in certain ways. We have to have kind of realistic expectations about what play looks like.

Speaker 1:

And so I recognize like, oh, there's a book here and so when I wrote this book, it's kind of half about predatory behavior and how that's related to play in cats and how play behavior develops in cats and why animals play at all.

Speaker 1:

And then it's half more prescriptive, like here's how to pick a toy or several toys for your cat and here's how to move the toys and here's when you should play and here's some things that can make your play session more exciting. And here's how you play if you have three cats and here's what your cat is overweight or if you have a cat with disability. So I was really trying to. It's kind of a, I'd say, comprehensive guide to playing with your cat and hopefully a fun read. It's illustrated by Lily Chen and she's a fantastic illustrator. She does a lot of she's at doggie drawingsnet and she does some really great art animal based, so I was really excited to have her illustrate my book. And, yeah, I'm just very excited to get this book into as many cat owners' hands as possible so that they can have the tools they need to make their cats very happy by playing with them.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I love that, Doc, if you're free in March, if you want to come back for to talk about your book like when it comes out, we could do like a little special side chat episode about it.

Speaker 4:

Hell yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's really, it's a cute. It's a cute book, so yeah, so just everybody, keep that on your radar. Hello everybody, here's some ways you can keep the science podcast free. Number one in our show notes sign up to be a member of our Paw Pack Plus community. It's an amazing community of folks who love pets and folks who love science. We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community. It's tons of fun. Also, think about checking out our merch store. We've got the Bunsen stuffy, the Beaker stuffy and now the Ginger stuffy. That's right, ginger the Science Cat has a little replica. It's adorable. It's so soft, with the giant fluffy tail, safety glasses and a lab coat. And number three if you're listening to the podcast on any place that writes podcasts, give us a great rating and tell your family and friends to listen to. Okay, on with the show, so we'll honor some speaker requests. Are you comfortable taking some questions from the audience, but not maybe vet related, like health of cat?

Speaker 1:

I'm very comfortable telling people if I can't answer their question or don't feel comfortable. So bring it on. And if I'm just going to be honest, if it's out of my, I don't answer medical questions, but I can tell you how to be a good advocate for your cat with your vet.

Speaker 2:

Perfect. So if you have some questions for the doc about cats I think we've kind of ruled out dog stuff If you got some cat questions we'd love to have you up. Or maybe you just want to tell the doc a cat story? Jen C, you're up first and then we'll go to Tracy and then I know Rachel requested, and then come on up if you'd like Jen C go ahead.

Speaker 6:

Okay, thanks. Thanks, jason and Chris, for hosting. That's a fact. Thanks, doc, for this is so interesting and I had so many questions.

Speaker 6:

I'm a cat owner and I've owned. I'm owned by a cat and I've had a lot of cats over the years. The latest kitty I have I'm sitting with her right now is Miley, and she was a rescue cat. She was six years old when I adopted her and but she was really well cared for. She had a microchip and everything and I'm assuming, you know, maybe elderly oh, elderly, sorry, that's my cat, miley's looking at my phone. Anyway, I assume she was well cared for, microchip etc. She was very depressed when I saw her and I didn't want to bring her home until she made eye contact and when she did I brought her home. But the question I have is that apparently she had been raised with a rabbit and a dog and this cat does things that aren't cat like. The only cat like thing she does is that you know, when you open a door, you know it's happening out at the door and wants to go in and then the cat waits. So she does that. But aside from that, she has these dog like qualities.

Speaker 5:

I love it.

Speaker 6:

And so, jason, I like I get what you're saying, like you know. You know I have a lot of people in my home that help me with my kids because they're special needs, and the cat's nickname is not a dog or not a cat, you know, not a cat, right, and you know I don't know where to start, but there's some. When you were talking about training cats, I mean this cat is trained. I mean this cat has better discipline than I do. You know, she doesn't eat off other people's plates, she won't eat people's food, even if we put it in her bowl. She has a regular bedtime and put yourself to sleep. And so you know my question. I guess my question, like I've never seen a cat like this, and so I'm wondering, like, how did this happen? Was it training?

Speaker 2:

It was the rabbit. It was the rabbit. No, I have no idea. I'm not an expert.

Speaker 6:

Like what happened, Because this is very typical for a cat Like. I say, I think she's a dog, except for the door bit. So anyway, thanks.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean you brought up a lot of really interesting points. One thing I will say is that cats are very much creatures of routine, so they need routine and when they experience deviations in their routine they can actually get sick. So it doesn't surprise me that your cat has like a set bedtime. I've definitely had cats that were like one of my cats. We used to, you know, we'd eat dinner and then we'd go sit on the couch and if we were eating dinner late she would like come in. It was almost like she was pointing at her watch like what is going on? Like you guys usually come and sit on the couch now. So they are very much creatures of habit.

Speaker 1:

But as far as like, how does the cat kind of end up being cat like? Or I mean, I'm not a big fan of the term dog like, just because I think we kind of cherry pick the positive traits and if a cat has them, suddenly they belong to dogs like it's a dog trait and if they're negative traits those are cat like. So I am very careful about that comparison. But any animal, their personality or the way they behave, consistently right Like we kind of expect our animals to behave in certain ways, because we know them and we know that they have certain traits and those traits are somewhat predictable. Hence I would call that personality. That helps us predict how they behave in certain circumstances. So there's genetics. So we know that the father has a kind of disproportionate impact on how bold a cat is, even when even though kittens are not raised with their dads, and even when tested in multiple studies, they were definitely separated from their fathers the friendliness of the father had a strong impact on the friendliness of the kittens. So there's genetics. There's also, you know, possibly, I'm sure there's other genetics that are related to personality. We just don't know what they are and they're probably several. So they kind of act in a polygenic effect. So there's not a single gene that makes your cat nice or not nice, or dog like or not dog like. Right, there's no little doggy gene in there.

Speaker 1:

But, and then there's early life experience. So this is what happens to the kitten when they're young. So that would be two to seven weeks of age is their what's called a sensitive period. So that is their sensitive period for socialization. That's when they're very open to learning about other individuals and experiences in their environment and making positive associations. So kittens that are well socialized between two and seven weeks of age are going to be more confident. They're going to be friendly with strangers. They're going to be maybe more easy going around other animals because of the experiences they have in that very tiny window.

Speaker 1:

Most of us do not get our cats when they're two to seven weeks of age. Those are baby kittens, so a lot happens during that period that has a lifelong influence. And then what happens after that period is also really important. So there's the quality of the environment. Is this cat living in an environment where they feel comfortable and safe? Is this an environment where they can observe other animals? We know cats are social learners. So it's very possible that your cat learned certain behaviors that worked for the dog or the rabbit and now work for her, and also, just if she was well cared for and loved and treated well, then that's her learned experience too. So it's a combo and we can't say, oh, it's 20% genetics and 30% this and 50% that we just don't know. But those are all really important influences of who your cat is today. So unfortunately I can't give you like a concrete. Yes, it was the rabbit, but it could have been the rabbit.

Speaker 6:

But, thank you, that makes a lot of sense and it explains a lot, you know. And so thank you, you're welcome, very, very, very interesting.

Speaker 2:

We're so lucky to have Dr Delgado tonight. I just am smiling from ear to ear. This conversation is amazing. Thanks, great question, jen. We'll go to Tracy. Hey, tracy, we've got a cat person. We've got a cat scientist today for you.

Speaker 5:

I know, and I have Ricky sitting on my lap with on his cat blanket, so it's very themed right now, nice, I don't really have a question. I mean not much here, just like I also have a cat. He's a tuxedo, he's a short hair, nice, and like you were talking about, like you can't really go by, like what people say animals are supposed to be like. So he is like a very clumsy but snuggly boy and he likes driving crazy by craving attention, like all the time.

Speaker 1:

I. That to me is not a problem behavior. I'm a little jealous. Well, he sounds adorable. You know, it's interesting because the first study I published was actually about people's attitudes about cats based on their coat color and and I heard, I've heard a lot from people. They people really love the black and white cats. They have a lot of nice things to say about them. There's no. So just to also be clear, there's no study that's actually demonstrated any actual behavior differences between cats of different coat colors. But people definitely have perceptions and ideas and opinions about cats based on coat color, probably do in part to their own personal experiences. When I worked at the shelter, you know a lot of people who had had a tuxedo wanted another one, or if they'd had an orange cat they wanted another one. So but he sounds adorable.

Speaker 2:

We have an orange cat. She's adorable.

Speaker 1:

I mean, all cats are adorable, but you know, of course, your cat is the most adorable, you are quick.

Speaker 2:

You are quick, doc.

Speaker 5:

Well done, he's not as well dressed as the other tuxedo cats.

Speaker 1:

He has a wave to his tux, but okay, yeah, sometimes they have, like you know, one sock is too long, or you know.

Speaker 2:

He's business casual, exactly, I don't know. Tracy comes to our, our pet chat space and always lets everybody know about Ricky. So this is kind of cool Ricky's her cat, nice, yeah, okay, thanks, tracy, cindy, go ahead.

Speaker 4:

Hi, thanks. I want to test the doctor about perceptions of whether she thinks cats are time blind. We have four cats in our house and because they can't be out and about all the time, you know, they often get locked into a separate area for bedtime and every time you know, then during the day, on occasion, if whatever we're doing, maybe we're moving stuff in and out or something where we don't want them to have the opportunity to run outside or something, they'll be put behind that same spot in that same door, just as if they were going to bed, and their behavior is the same Every time. I can put them there for five minutes or for the night, and their behavior is always the same when they run out, it's like do you even know how much time you spent there?

Speaker 5:

Oh my.

Speaker 4:

God.

Speaker 2:

That's so silly.

Speaker 4:

Well, that's what I was curious about, if there's been any studies or observations to their perception of time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I don't know of anything that specifically tested their perception from like a cognition standpoint, where they basically looked to see if a cat would do something at a certain time, regardless of the stimuli they were receiving from the outside world. Cats definitely have a sense of time that is influenced by various things, right, our schedules, probably hunger, and natural like rhythms of their body, in addition to external stimuli like traffic during rush hour or light, or the dog barking that goes outside every morning at seven, or, what was my case for a while, the rooster next door, right, so so you have rooster problems too.

Speaker 1:

Not anymore.

Speaker 2:

That's a whole plot in text from Bunsen. Never mind, it's okay.

Speaker 1:

No, luckily I wake up early. But you know, and anybody who feeds their cat on the schedule, like, can attest to the fact that cats know, like, if you feed your cat at 6pm, at 555pm, the cats are like staring at you oh, yeah, yeah, okay, food is coming right. But as far as like, if you take the stimulus away from them I mean we know that, like when you put people in like a dark underground space and they have no like zeitgeiber right no external light telling them about the light cycle, that they do kind of fall into these weird atypical sleep patterns. So I would expect that, lacking stimulus, like the same might happen to cats. But I do think they have an internal rhythm that you know our lives are pretty consistent.

Speaker 1:

The sun doesn't suddenly, you know, one day rise at seven and the next day rise at 10. Like it's, you know, all the changes are gradual and there's other things, like animals outside that would tell them. But is there a learned, maybe calm, response to going into this room? Is there something about this room that they have a positive association with? Or is just the like expectation that they go in there and they relax? Maybe that's why they act the same? I mean I would probably put a webcam in there and just spy on them a little bit.

Speaker 4:

Really good idea. I have noticed one. He's my son. He rescued him when he was a little baby and he had very infected eyes and they've been best friends ever since. But he, my son, is homeschooled and this cat joins him Monday to Friday for homeschool and then Saturday and Sunday, the cat sitting for homeschooling vacations, and it's not a school day and he's like uh yeah, they don't really understand what a weekend is he's like I want to learn when is the learnings and

Speaker 4:

he has to have some paper to lay on, or he'll come and lay on my son's book or whatever's there.

Speaker 2:

So, he is adorable Next.

Speaker 1:

thing you know he's going to need his own laptop, I think oh, and you know this cat.

Speaker 4:

I thought we might lose some of his trust because earlier this year he was diagnosed with feline infectious parentinitis, usually 100% fatal.

Speaker 5:

Not anymore.

Speaker 4:

My vet said you know we can treat this, but I can't treat this. I said. I said what she's like, I'm going to give you a number and you're going to call it and you're going to buy this drug off of basically the black market to treat your cat. And I went what? So? For 80 days I used injections and pills on this cat to treat him for feline infectious parentinitis. He's 100% cured and so happy and we're so happy and he did not lose trust in us, even though we had to give him injections which they burn. They're not comfortable.

Speaker 1:

Yes, congratulations on successful treatment of his FIP. Certainly, when I was working the shelter 20 years ago that was a death sentence for kitties. So it's amazing that treatment has been discovered and hopefully very soon it will be easy to access and legal for veterinarians to use, because there's been research demonstrating that this treatment works with very few adverse events. So I'm really glad your vet knew to give you access to that.

Speaker 4:

I guess it's legal in Australia. But I tell you I felt like a criminal. It was coming in packages and we had seeing and it was marked cat wash but it was an injectable vial. I'm like this is not cat wash. I'm like it better not be cat wash.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a little scary and it's like, yeah, the medication is called GS8, something, something, something. Right, it's like a weird combo of letters and numbers. But yeah, actually Niels Peterson at UC Davis sees a veterinarian and researcher. There is the one who really was able to establish that treatment was effective.

Speaker 4:

Amazing, we would have hated him. He's such a good friend, oh.

Speaker 1:

I know, yeah. Well, I'm glad you still have him. He sounds very cute.

Speaker 4:

He has his own Instagram page, adventures of Marshmallow. If somebody wants to have a look my son and his I'm looking right now.

Speaker 2:

We'll have to follow that.

Speaker 4:

It's Marshmallow spell M E L L? O, because you know he's Mello. And my son said he's all. He's tabby with white. So my son said he's all the colors of a marshmallow, he's burnt, he's perfect and he's raw.

Speaker 2:

That's like Bunsen's paws.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I just followed him.

Speaker 4:

Oh, okay, thank you, thank you for the time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I just you think you don't think like there's a lot of stuff happening with pet stuff and I didn't think that before I started the science podcast, but it's like every week there's some cool new thing that is happening with animal research, like, and there's, you know there's, there's, there's. The lightest one I looked at was for dogs, with underwater treadmills versus land treadmills for rehab, rehabbing after certain types of disc slippages, and they found that the underwater treadmill and the land treadmill were the same.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, the water, one would be better for if the dog has trouble standing, like if it's a really serious rehab. But the whole point of it was that underwater treadmills are extremely expensive and hard to find, and right so. But anybody on Facebook marketplace could probably find a treadmill for their dog, so that's very cool. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I mean, it's the. There's lots of behavior research, there's lots of medical research, it's I mean, even if you just think about the like treatment options that are available to our cats, now it's, it's remarkable.

Speaker 2:

And, hey, somebody is might be writing a book about it, coming out in March, about playing with your cat. Do you have time to take another question, doc, before we can wrap up?

Speaker 1:

I can take one more you betcha.

Speaker 2:

Okay, paula Hello.

Speaker 7:

Hi, excuse me because I'm still recovering from the flu, so I have like half a voice here. I have a really quick question. I am a dog walker sitter, but I do cats too. I've had a cat actually, and a cat with seven Yorkshire terriers who thought it was a dog and she was great. She was a Black and white tuxedo that we we found and we adopted her and she just thought she was a dog. In fact she was bigger than some of the Yorkie, so it was pretty funny, wow. But but my question is when I'm sleeping over some clients homes, they have cats and they sound like some territorial thing in the middle of night doing this, oh yeah, screaming, and this and it's it is. That's ungodly hour, of course, at like 2 to 4 am and you're wondering what in the Lord's name Do they want me to do? Because it's like they peruse the house and they're doing this howling. Is there some study or science behind why cats do this howling like that?

Speaker 1:

Do you happen to know if the cat had a toy in her mouth when she was doing this?

Speaker 7:

I don't think so. They were. They had to. They were litter mates, but they were. They would just like they would go up and down the hallway. You could hear them because it was echoing and it was like an alarm.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my goodness, you're getting. You're getting with a Doppler effect with cow cats.

Speaker 5:

Yes, it was.

Speaker 7:

It was really kind of funny and. I really wake you up because it was so loud and I I don't think that they were you know Hitting something against the walls or playing, because you would hear them thumping or you know running around, but it was just this walk and it's I don't know if it was almost like territorial. Is it something that's in your ancestry that might be back and you know in your lineage of cats that they would do that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so Certainly cats are not actually nocturnal like a lot of people think. Cats are nocturnal, they're crepuscular, meaning they're active at dawn and dusk, naturally. So of course their, their activity cycles are heavily influenced by lifestyle and but. But most cats kind of get zoomies like in the evening or like at dawn. So when we see middle of the night behaviors, I guess, like if I was, like if you were a client and I was trying to get more information, I'd want to know like are they? Do these cats normally get along? Is there a chance they're fighting in the middle of the night over something? Or is there a cat outside, who's maybe an outdoor kitty, who's coming up to the window and agitating them, which happens more than you might think?

Speaker 1:

oh my god, yeah, it's a problem. So I would first be concerned about the like relationship between the two cats, because the sounds you described like those, are not friendly sounds usually. The reason I asked if the cat was carrying a toy around is that a lot of cats will carry a Toy in their mouth and kind of do more of a guttural. It's like a kind of noise, and that I I also don't know why they do it, but there's different. It's a. It's a question that comes up enough that I know other people's cats do it too.

Speaker 1:

One of my cats does it. She likes to carry a toy around in her mouth and she kind of howls. But if we were having like excessive activity at night, then my goal would be to try to get those cats more active during the day and Play with them in the evening, feed them at bedtime so their biggest meal the day would happen at bedtime and and help maybe get them a heated bed at night so that they would settle down and sleep through the night. It could be that with them. So this was the cat with the seven Dogs right, no, no, no.

Speaker 7:

The clients kid easy to. I have to. I have a client. I had a client that had to litter mates and they were. There were two cats, but they would. It would be, I would say, between Probably four and five. So it's like almost like dusk, you know.

Speaker 6:

I mean okay.

Speaker 7:

I mean so what rather, and they would be just doing this, so bad, but it's like I don't want to start coughing, but they, you know, they would just be walking up the up and down the halls. It sounded like a ghost, I mean. It was almost like that haunting. It was like what a bloody name is this, you know? But it was pretty funny. I wish I got it on safe because it was pretty funny. But my cat know, my cat was pretty good, she was quiet, but this one, this one was, and it's only seems like it's only one, I don't think it's both of them, you know, chiming in, hmm, Okay, but sometimes, yeah, like one will get you know One kind of more voicing yeah.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, I would say like, since it was kind of that, that witching hour where cats are are kind of naturally starting to wake up and Think about hunting, that could be influencing it. And, like I said, I always work to get the cats on the human schedule and so that that is why I'm always, like you know, keep them awake during the day, play with them a few times a day, feed them at your bedtime. Don't feed them when you wake up first thing, because then they're just trying to get you out of bed.

Speaker 2:

So so it is.

Speaker 1:

I mean because to me my sleep is very precious, so it's it's been very important to me that my cats sleep through the night, and in fact, a lot of you know All of my cats. Basically I get up often before they do they'll stay in the bed, so so I would. I would definitely, like I said, think about Are there any external stimuli, like other cats or animals outside, or maybe there's mice in the walls that might be waking them up To? Is the relationship between the cats stable? And three, can we do anything to help the cats sleep a little more soundly at night? That would be my three pronged approach to this situation, but I don't have a great answer because I just don't have enough information. I really okay.

Speaker 7:

I just didn't know if it was something that was more you know, in cats in general, you know like a behavior kind of a thing. Yeah, I was a pinpoint, no individually, but I just it just struck me so funny because I've, you know, I've heard of cats howling at night, but it's, you know, and I mean I really experienced it with these two because, boy, they put on a show so yeah, yeah, and certainly, like I said, that hour of the day is kind of close to when they would start waking up, so it might just be they were greeting the day with some really loud vocalizations.

Speaker 7:

Well, thank you very much. You've been very interesting and good luck with your book. It sounds fascinating. I can't wait to read it.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Doc, I have one question before we kind of wrap things up, and that's about our cat. Okay um, chris, can you do? Are you? Are you here, chris? I don't know if you're out and about.

Speaker 3:

I'm here.

Speaker 2:

You're here, chris. Can you do the the sound ginger makes at beaker?

Speaker 7:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

So let's how, chris? When does this, oh sorry, when does this happen?

Speaker 3:

Okay, so beaker will be in our bedroom, ginger will be in our bedroom. It happens in the morning and what happens is beaker will be just minding your home business and ginger will either block the door and then she looks at her and she goes yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She makes this kind of sound like is it a chatter? Like a Yep? That's exactly what it is. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Um, so, first of all, ginger is 100 cat. I'm just saying, um, but okay, so Because you're like she's guarding the door from the dog, and now she's making this cat noise. So the cat noise is what we call chatter, and the chatter is a sound that cats make often when they're frustrated, so they'll be like it's usually when they're looking at prey, like through a window, or like they're stalking, so like if you, if she ever looks out the window and sees a bird or a squirrel, a lot of cats will do that.

Speaker 2:

That's the sound. That's the sound she makes. I like to beaker.

Speaker 1:

So that's a chatter. Um, yeah, so it can be. Like said we don't 100, no, why? So? There's one one theory Again is that it's a predatory like kind of.

Speaker 1:

Okay, there's been studies that show that when certain animals Mimic their prey, they have a better chance of like not being detected by them, right? So one theory is that cats are making this bird like noise, like, like, somehow that's like a, a bird like sound that would make them less likely to be detected by a bird. Whether that's true or not, we have no like. This is all theoretical, based on a study of like I think it was like primates and some other species, but when there was imitation by a predator that allowed them to get closer to their prey animal. So that's one theory. But then the other is just like. Okay, we observe this a lot also in situations where the cat can't access the prey. So there they see something like. One of my cats will do it if she sees like a bird on tv. She's not like, she's a bit of a modern cat like. She likes, you know, she likes tech, so she prefers to watch birds on tv.

Speaker 2:

Gotta watch out for that screen time there, doc.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly she's bad for kids. She's really into the screen time, but so. So it could be a frustration, or it could be like I'd like to eat you.

Speaker 2:

She's. She's not gonna be eating beaker, she's tiny.

Speaker 1:

That doesn't necessarily mean she isn't thinking about it.

Speaker 2:

Oh my god, that's hilarious.

Speaker 1:

You know, cats are like they look in the mirror and they see the lion looking back at them, right.

Speaker 2:

She is so unafraid of our dogs. Michael, like ginger, is not a terror Does in the slightest as she's scared of Bunsen and beaker and Bunsen is enormous she's not scared of him at all right because you have.

Speaker 1:

You have burners right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he's a hundred pound giant dog and he gets out of her weight like if she's coming and he's Consents that something's up. He just like well, I'm just I don't want to deal with this.

Speaker 1:

That's really the best way for it to be in a cat dog household. If if the cat's not into it, it's not gonna go on. That's been like. There was a study that actually suggested that when the cat was in control it was a better relationship.

Speaker 2:

Oh no, she's in control. She butts heads with beaker, though right like I don't think beaker is a hundred percent willing to give seed control to the cat. So they do have this love hate relationship, but they also Hang out with each other all day like not touching or cuddling, but they're like close to each other all day, which is cute.

Speaker 1:

Just keeping an eye on each other.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, keep your friends close. Exactly and you're hunting partner partners even closer. Um, what we'll round we'll. We'll shut her down here. I'm doc. Thank you so much for being our guest tonight. I so appreciate you giving up your time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to talk to you, as usual.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, do you have a cat catch phrase Like do you have one of those that you like can sign off with?

Speaker 1:

Gosh, no, do I need to do. I need to have one.

Speaker 2:

I don't know, it'd be cool Like.

Speaker 1:

I'm terrible with marketing. I don't know anything about. Yeah, um, maybe I need to work on one that's a catastrophe it really is. I'm I'm really sorry. I've probably disappointed everybody here.

Speaker 3:

No, we're not, but you do tweet a lot and you have a lot of information on your website as well as in your tweets and I put a bunch of them in the nest in terms of how can I deal with my Nocturnal but they're not nocturnal cat, um and about, maybe, how can I give my cat a pill? How can I, um, do all these things with my cat? So I put a lot of information up into the nest for people to Access in in case they're interested. Great, thank you.

Speaker 2:

All right. Once again, thank you so much, doc, for being our guest tonight. This was amazing. I know you're busy, uh, and it's. It's just wonderful You're able to chat with us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so happy to be here. Okay, Good night everybody.

Speaker 2:

Good night.

Speaker 6:

Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

That was cool, right, hey, that was cool, that was cool. All right, as we wrap up, hey, we got some. We've got some big news everybody.