All those things that my mom had said about how to like achieve success attract the male gaze and look cute and do what the man says, and that was how you were going to achieve success. And I was like, no, no, I'm rejecting that, I'm going to be a surfer. And then it was like, wow, this is kind of the same thing.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Water People, a podcast about the aquatic experiences that shape who we become back on land. I'm your host, lauren Hill, joined by my partner, dave Rastovich. Here we get to talk story with some of the most interesting and adept waterfolk on the planet. We acknowledge the Bundjalung Nation, the traditional custodians of the land and waters where we work and play, who have cared for this sea country for tens of thousands of years. Who have cared for this sea country for tens of thousands of years. Respect and gratitude to all First Nations people, including elders, past, present and emerging.
Speaker 2:This season is supported by Patagonia, whose purpose-driven mission is to use business to save our home planet. Today we're in conversation with Holly Beck, entrepreneur and holistic surf coach. Holly has a degree in psychology, an MBA and a master's in counseling. She is the founder of Surf with Amigos, an all-inclusive surf and yoga retreat for adventurous women, which she's run for the last 15 years from her home base in Central America.
Speaker 2:Before that, holly spent 10 years as a professional surfer, where she pioneered new pathways for women in the industry, as a competitor, savvy, free surfer and as president of International Women's Surfing, a largely forgotten union to push for equal pay and opportunity in the early 2000s. In the year 2000, holly took home the Teen Choice Award for Female Extreme Athlete. She was also one of surfing's first reality TV stars, as one of seven pro surfers filmed and followed on Oahu's North Shore during the 2002 Triple Crown of Surfing. Through Surf, with Amigas and private clients, holly is growing the space of therapeutic surf coaching, a modality that combines experiential and talk therapy with surf coaching to help women in particular focus on their mental health while also improving their surfing. Do you want to tell me about the internal struggle you've been battling with this morning?
Speaker 3:Oh, the one about going surfing or taking care of administration things with life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that one.
Speaker 3:Yes, sure, right now I have the good yeti on one shoulder and the bad yeti on the other, and they're talking through my ears and one's saying go surfing, go surfing, the wind's nice. Oh yeah, there's a nice little south swell and the water's blue and the sky is too. And the other one's saying no, you just spent the last few days in the ocean all day, and there are many, many things on many lists that you have to attend to. So I'm just caught in the middle trying to figure that shit out, and it's not easy.
Speaker 2:I can see the strife on your face.
Speaker 3:Do you have that experience, Lauren?
Speaker 2:I do have that experience, but I think I find it easier to accept and act on responsibilities than you do, for whatever reason, I don't know why. I guess I find joy in maybe a wider breadth of things than you do.
Speaker 3:So I'm just narrow-minded basically no, no. And self-serving. Is that what you're trying to get to here? It?
Speaker 2:doesn't really sound that way.
Speaker 3:Well maybe not between your ears, but between mine that way.
Speaker 3:Well, maybe not between your ears, but between mine. That's what I heard, sorry, no, it's. It's a thing that a lot of us who have a real love of surfing have to navigate, and you know we can take the piss out of it, we can laugh, of course, which is great, but there are times where it's not that funny and you know, these last few months for us, for us, have been not that funny because of ecological reasons. You know, our rivers were swollen and polluted and fish were dying in the tens of thousands and the ocean was dirty and wobbly and surfing took a real backseat for many months, and that had real consequences, certainly for me.
Speaker 3:It was a really hard time actually.
Speaker 2:For mental health, you mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and physically. Like just actually getting physically sick. That's not easy. So that's the flip side of having the vibrance of a surfing body and a surfing state of mind. You also have that, I guess, shadow side, or the price to pay sometimes.
Speaker 2:It borders on the edge of unhealthy addiction at times for a lot of us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and this conversation with Holly is a really great reminder of how to dance that line and do well and be our best, despite being sort of like torn in a way, like having one foot in the water and one foot on land at all times, and it's like, ooh, that can be tricky because you end up doing neither very well. So it's kind of like, okay, I'm on land, let's do what needs to be done here, and then when you're in the ocean, you forget it all and you're just in the ocean.
Speaker 2:I'm such a fan of Holly as I allude to in the episode. I grew up seeing her in all the ads and sponsored. As you know, she's an accomplished competitive surfer but really she forged a path for herself as a free surfer and model when that wasn't especially available to a lot of women who are surfing. So I definitely acknowledge her effort in that space. But I'm so stoked about the work she's doing now and I think you hear that toward the end of our conversation with her we get right into holistic surf therapy and what that means and how she came to it and because of the podcast Water People is really all about and we say this in the intro it's all about our aquatic experiences and how they shape who we become back on land. Holistic surf therapy is, I don't know, kind of another way to think about ocean as mirror and ocean as a way for us to keep knowing ourselves at different phases in our lives, and that feels really exciting and also validating.
Speaker 3:Why? Why would you laugh when you say that?
Speaker 2:Because I am turning 40 this year. I'm going to say that in every episode, all year.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:God, I'm excited, but I just still love surfing so much and it gives me so much and the things, oh God, get reflected in this huge, spacious place we get to play and I'm just so grateful and it feels validating to see someone looking into the research being able to quantify the fact that surfing is healing. We know it personally. But also getting to see what it does for other people and see people change because of their experiences positive experiences in the water is just beautiful.
Speaker 3:It's an interesting one too, right now that we have so many people coming to surfing that are adults and kids.
Speaker 3:There's just waves and waves of people all over the world learning to surf, and then you have these accomplished water people guiding those people into the surfing experience, and it's usually interesting to speak with those coaches or surf lesson people in relation to the kind of people they see coming to their shoreline and going out in the water and what their experiences are.
Speaker 3:And I think that's, in holly's case, a really interesting area to dive into, because you know 15 years of taking lots of women, especially surfing, and reflecting on what it's done for those women. You know she's getting letters back from people or calls back from people who have attended a camp with her, saying it changed their life, it was a beautiful experience. They had never known such a feeling in their body or clarity or whatever the treasures were that they attained from being with Holly in that beautiful space there in Central America, and so I think that is also just interesting and it makes me want to talk to some of the people in our area who are teaching hundreds of people a year about surfing. It's like, well, what are you learning from them too, because it's a two-way street Get these new perspectives coming back. So that in itself is interesting with Holly, let alone the fact that she has an inquisitive and sort of academic mind and wants to know really what are we doing, how are we doing this and what does it mean in the bigger picture?
Speaker 2:And a big part of her story has been how do I make this better, how do I make this culture better? How do I make the experience of a lineup better? She's been interested and engaged with that work from the very start of her career.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's great. That opportunity to speak from the inside and the outer is really useful, you know, for us to be able to dive into how it feels to be, you know, basically hustling and selling your body and your look and your surfing to avoid a nine to five job and then, to you know, pull out of that and go remote and simplify majorly. It's just great. It's a wonderful life lived and great, I guess, kind of like reports from the edge in a way. I love that moment you get with people who have really stretched the edges of life and can come back to us, to others, and report from that space. I feel like Holly is one of those people and we're better for it what are you taking away from this conversation?
Speaker 3:that I should probably go surfing right now and don't do any of the things that I need to be doing on the lists. No that that that actually to to do better here on land, with attending the things that need to be attended and then being able to be 100 in in the ocean when I'm there, really considering that space before going surfing. The why of it. Why have I carved out this block of time?
Speaker 2:I loved that too. I really loved that because we didn't talk about this specifically. But I get the sense that a lot of the aggression, a lot of the miscommunication and heaviness in lineups is because we bring what's heavy for us on land into the lineup and end up acting out from things that have nothing to do with the surfing experience. We end up inflicting those emotions on other people in this space that has nothing to do with what's happening on land, and so Holly offers up this really practical prompt at the end of the episode around how we can sit with ourselves and really try to leave that heaviness behind to hopefully make for a healthier lineup environment.
Speaker 3:Indeed, and also just the excitement of hearing that you are going to dive into 10 foot surf and we'll do that together and I'll get to help you through that experience. I'm looking forward to what people have to say about hearing that part of the conversation. That's going to be really fun, but it's it's. It's a neat experience when you get to talk to someone who has some practical tools for us to dive into those sort of prickly areas as surfers, and I loved that you're opening up and talking about an area of your surfing life that is sort of prickly areas as surfers, and I loved that you're opening up and talking about an area of your surfing life that is a little prickly and perhaps uncomfortable for you, and that she really has really useful steps for you for all of us to tread, moving forward and perhaps being better and doing better.
Speaker 2:I haven't been on many surf trips since I gave birth and I think I'm going to have to add attending one of Holly's workshops to the wish list one of these years. She is such an inspiring and talented surfer, and with her skills as a counselor, I think we'll end up having an experience unlike what you can get anywhere else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and have fun getting borrowed at the same time.
Speaker 2:What's better than that? We always begin by asking about a time or experience after which you were never the same. Holly, would you be willing to share a story like that with us?
Speaker 1:For sure and definitely mine goes more into a time it wasn't one moment, but that would be when I made the decision to move to Central America, and that came after a few months of living in Nicaragua, just thinking it was going to be sort of a short term thing. And then I was going to go back to the US and kind of begin my like big girl life, post pro surfing, and I spent three months living on a little piece of land that my boyfriend at the time and I had bought together and we'd built this like little tiny house, 400 square foot off the grid. It just had a solar panel that ran a light in the fan and cooler, and then actually had a well that you had to pump by hand, like like old school, like pulling water up on the ground. And I spent three months down there and just I had rescued this dog and then she'd gotten pregnant and had some puppies.
Speaker 1:So I had like these, four dogs and was living in this really remote place and I was just like this this is who I want to be, and it was the first time in my life up until that point and I was like this was 2010. So I was 30 years old and I think a lot of people when they're 30, you're trying to figure out like, okay, now it's time to like be who I'm gonna be for the rest of my life. To some extent, and I had this realization that it was time to finally put away everybody else's expectations for what I should be and choose this thing that I wanted to do, and it was living in Central America just surfing.
Speaker 2:It's so great and I can so relate to you. I feel like we had a very similar when I moved to Australia. It was from a very suburban, very sterile Floridian kind of suburban existence and I came to Australia Dave had just built a little cabin off grid. We had to carry the water from the tank into the house. Dish doing was like at a tap at the bottom of a water tank, and I loved it so much. Just the simplicity of being in touch with all of the elements of life that I'd taken for granted for my entire, basically young life. Like you, it really set me up to see like these are the things that I value and these are the things that I want to carry forward in who I'm becoming.
Speaker 3:That makes me wonder, holly, like you had a great run of surf travel and having adventures. You know I can relate to that life where you just sort of roll from one surf trip to another for years. It seems like this decision to go and have such a like paired back lifestyle, living remotely like you're just describing, were those seeds planted in you before all of that surf travel? Having grown up in california, that's a pretty different world. Or did that come from your willingness to go out into the world and explore and experience different cultures and places?
Speaker 1:I would say it was a rejection of what I grew up with, because I grew up in a upper middle class, you know, pretty comfortable lifestyle in just outside of Los Angeles and my I'm the oldest of five girls and my parents were very much traditional gender roles, like the role of a female is to look cute and, you know, do the right things. I did dancing and horseback riding, piano lessons, like all the nice things that a nice young lady should do, and the goal was to meet a rich husband and get married and start having babies. And if you weren't going to go that route, then you needed to go and pursue a career that was going to pay you a lot of money. That was like my dad was like well, if you're not going to do the baby's thing, then you should be a lawyer, like I am. And I think growing up I never really felt like like I was trying to do that, to like please my parents to some extent, but it was always this like battle, because it didn't feel true to who I was. And then when I was like 15 years old and I discovered surfing 14, 15, and I started surfing and I was like I'm rejecting all that and I'm going to be a surfer and I'm going to I'm a tomboy, I'm going to like play with the boys and and all of this.
Speaker 1:And then, as I got into the surf industry, it was interesting because it was like all those things that my mom had said about how to like achieve success. It was to like attract the male gaze and look cute and do what the man says and to appease the man, and that was how you're gonna achieve success. And I was like no, no, I'm rejecting that. I'm gonna be a surfer. And then it was like, wow, this is kind of the same thing, because in the, you know, in the mid 90s, when I got into surfing and I got sponsored pretty quickly after not having surfed for very long, and I got sponsored more as a model, and then my career of competitive surfing was very intertwined with, like the modeling. And, yeah, it was like the male now it's like the male marketing director and like the magazine guys and all of this stuff, which I was like kind of like, okay, well, my mom has sort of trained me to do that, like I kind of know how to do this. It's not who I am, but also like I can put on the mask of being the model and being cute and all of that. And, of course, traveling the world was the perk, so it was like worth doing it and I was super lucky to have sponsorship because of course, in that era like not everybody did. And yeah, traveling the world opened my eyes to this is really fun and I love surfing good waves and these waves are so much better than what I grew up surfing.
Speaker 1:But I just got burnt out on that scene and you know I I did well with competitive surfing but I wasn't on the CT, like I was never going to be world champ, but it was because I had like the modeling and I had the right look.
Speaker 1:You know I had a hard work ethic, that then I still had the success. But yeah, I think moving to Nicaragua was this like I'm just tired of playing this game and I don't even know who I actually am. I haven't had a chance to like really explore that, because all growing up I'm trying to fit into this mold that my parents had set for me and then I thought that I had broken out of that and I'm in the surf industry and I'm like living my dream. But it's also kind of the same and I'm just going to put all that aside and go live in the dirt in Nicaragua as like the only female and just go surf really good waves and and like that was this turning point, to like I'm going to be who I want to be and like now I get a chance to actually explore like who that is.
Speaker 2:I'd love to talk a little bit more about the way you played the game as the industry dictated at the time. This is something I've thought a lot about and written a lot about, and there's a lot of nuance to that conversation. Right, there's been this like conversation around sex sells, and we all know that that can be true and also other things can be true. At the same time and I love your point of view because you saw what was happening around you and you made the choice to play the game to have a career You're obviously an incredibly talented surfer, but that's not all it takes to make a career out of pro surfing. Lots of talented surfers don't or can't manage to do that. Can you speak a little bit more to what you saw? Because you came into pro surfing competitive surfing at a really critical turning point.
Speaker 2:Right Like mid-90s, late 90s, lisa Anderson is getting sponsored and sort of cracking the glass ceilings in the industry. Women's board shorts are coming out, brands are starting to support women in ways that had never happened before, and at that point, either you were Lisa Anderson or you were a model surfer. There were basically two pathways, and where my critique has always been is like the problem is not women who want to go down the sexy route. It's that we need a breadth of opportunities, from board short wearing to g-string wearing Everything in between can be valuable and can be a viable option for women who want to make a living in the industry. Does anything in there spark you?
Speaker 1:make a living in the industry. Does anything in there spark you? Yeah, I've been super inspired at the way that you talk about women in surfing and women in the industry. Like I loved your take in the how surfers get paid, that episode about women surfing. I just I love the way you spoke about it and like a lot of what you said really resonated and I think it is interesting because and I you know I'm so out of it now that I'm not even sure what what is going on now but definitely then it did feel like that. It was like you were a model or you were an athlete.
Speaker 1:And the very first photo that I had in the magazine it was a rusty ad in surfer magazine and it was a picture of me standing in like a red bathing suit holding a surfboard. I think I was like 17 years old and you know I had been competing in like the amateur contest and it's like some little pro contest, the U S open and those kinds of things. So I was just starting you know I'd only been serving a couple of years, but so I was just starting to like kind of meet these women, like like Lisa she's a little older than me but like Rochelle and Serena and kind of the that era of women, like I was just starting to meet them and I feel like, because the very first introduction of me into like the kind of wider surfing world, at least on the professional level, was from this one ad of me in a bathing suit and then all of the photos that came from that photo shoot, like Rusty ran and I was stoked Don't get me wrong to have a photo in the magazine at all At that age. I was thrilled. Yes, I would have preferred it to be riding a wave, but like I was stoked to just be that and I felt like in the beginning I like none of those other girls took me seriously because it's like, oh well, you're a model. And then, as I kind of got more into competitive surfing than you know some of my peers, there's a lot of jealousy. It was like there were girls that were way better surfers than I was or I was competitive with maybe, and ones also that were better.
Speaker 1:But I was getting the sponsorship, I was getting the photo in the magazine whether it was actually standing on a board or not. Like it was my photo, I was getting paid and and it put me in this really strange place where, like, in one hand, I felt bad. I was like this is weird, like this isn't right. Yeah, we're all traveling together, you're actually beating me in the contest, but like I have the credit card, that from my sponsor, that I can put the rental car on, or like I'm gonna buy dinner tonight, and yeah, it was this awkward thing because that's not how I wanted to be known. I didn't want to be known as a model, I wanted to be known for my surfing, but at the same time, I recognized that if I went the model route and I played that game too and I said yes to the photo shoot that that was going to help.
Speaker 1:I went to a contest in Portugal one time and it was like a WQS 6,000 or something, and it was maybe the first year that I was going to those bigger events and it was like Maxim Europe that had somehow like asked me to do a photo shoot and I was like on the beach at the contest area, like on a lay day, like leaning over my board with like my butt in the air, like doing this exaggerated like waxing technique and like all the girls were like my butt in the air like doing this exaggerated, like waxing technique, and like all the girls were like standing up on the cliff, like heckling me, you know, and it was like I think some women really like love that and like want to show off their body and enjoy the photo shoots and like respect to them.
Speaker 1:But that was never me, like I wasn't doing it because I thought this is fun and don't I look hot in the photo. It was like this is a means to an end. And yeah, I found myself in those situations a lot where and I think that some of the heckles, the girls were like I'm so glad that's not me and maybe some other ones were kind of jealous of the attention or jealous of what that said about like my ability to earn income, and I was just like I don't know. I don't know, I'm in a weird. I'm in a weird place here.
Speaker 2:I can so relate to that, not the Maxim side. So much but but the having access to opportunities that maybe better surfers didn't have access to, and we all have different reasons for why Can you relate to that on the men's side at all?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, totally. I remember being sponsored by billabong and being like a teenager that didn't fit in the competitive surfing world very well. I played the game with that one for a while, because at that point it was the only way you could be a sponsored surfer was competitions. And then, fortunately, right when I became like a 20 year old, more opportunities within Billabong were available for doing different kinds of surfing and being supported somewhat.
Speaker 3:And so I do remember actually doing board shorts, photo shoots, where you know every year they make a new board short that's meant to make your surfing 100 times better, and all this bullshit. And so you do these photo shoots and I remember I could do them with a smile on my face because I was like, well, shit, this is better than laying bricks and digging holes and doing that kind of work that's going to ruin my body and is not very fulfilling. So I would just be like, sure, I'll stand there and look like an idiot and you can take these photos and then I'm gonna disappear, I, I'm going to go on surfing adventures, I'll play that game. So I can relate to that thing of like just you compromise, because all of us do in our work Like there's always some kind of compromise.
Speaker 2:Every job feels like a job sometimes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I get that. You know you're playing that game and also the reality of that time was like everyone was hustling. I think surfers in general have a real history of hustling in order to have a life full of time and opportunity to go surfing when the waves come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. It's crazy to see it now when you compare it to those days. And now the surfers are traveling with their partner and their best friend and their manager and their coach, and all of that it's so hard to relate to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's funny too, though, because there is that it's almost like there's more extremism. Now. There is those people who have like a whole entourage team, and then we were just hearing about one of australia's most up-and-coming kids who's like doing the biggest fanciest airs and stuff, and he is sponsored but nowhere near enough to do his thing, and so he's working at the local supermarket chain at the same time as being the like winningest young surfer in Australia. So there's less opportunities, but the people who are getting support are getting like extreme amounts of support. It's a funny one, just to see, you know, from our perspective.
Speaker 2:Holly, your first photo trip as a teenager was with, if I'm not mistaken, the great Floridian four-time world champ, frida Zamba and other notable surfers like Prue Jeffries. We spoke with Dylan Graves recently and he was in kind of a similar situation where he ended up with a bunch of male surfing legends as a teenager. He said he was absolutely shitting himself. I was wondering were you shitting yourself? And also, did you feel like you rose to the opportunity of that moment? Well, that trip came about.
Speaker 1:So I learned to serve my freshman year of high school, the summer of my freshman year, but I didn't really have the means to go regularly until I was a sophomore. So by the time I graduated high school I'd only been serving for three years, and so I went to college. Graduated high school, I'd only been surfing for three years and so I went to college. And it was in my first semester of college that Jim Rusi, who is actually from the same town that I am, he called me up and he said hey, I've got this trip to go to Puerto Escondido, for it was the very first issue of surfing girl magazine. I don't even think it was like the fur magazine, it was like the insert, that like the girls insert that went inside the magazine. But yeah, somebody I don't know who it was that was originally meant to be on the trip had to cancel last minute. So there was an open spot and because he knew me from when I was young well, young three years ago, which seemed like a long time in that era he invited me to go, and so it was like three days before the trip, so I didn't really have the time to sort of anticipate, got out of lecture hall and got my sponsor to buy a flight to Puerto Escondido. I felt safe because I knew Jim and he believed in me to be there. So that was helpful.
Speaker 1:But I am I'm kind of a nerd and definitely an introvert. And to be with these women like Prue Jeffries and Felina Spires, I think, was one of the other ones, and then Frida Zamba, like four time world champ, I definitely didn't feel like I fit in, but at the same time Frida was super nice to me, which I very much appreciated, because I think the other girls were kind of like too cool, were kind of like too cool. And on that trip what I realized was that while those girls were much better surfers than I was, the gap wasn't as big as I thought, because up until that point I hadn't even considered the possibility that I was going to be a pro surfer. I mean, I was competing in amateur contests, I'd only been surfing a few years, but it was at.
Speaker 1:That trip was really momentous because by the end of that trip all of those girls were going off to go to Australia for the next event and I was going back to sit in lecture hall and I made the decision like I got to do that. I'm going to buckle down. I'm going to figure out how to do it. I'm not going to drop out of school. I'm going to finish a year early so that I could go and live that life.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's wild.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of talk, I feel like, with each new generation of women surfing, about how they're doing it like women have never done before and they're legitimizing women surfing, and I always think about how that feels for the previous generation of women and how the history gets lost, neglected and underappreciated. I love hearing you talk about Felina Spires and even Frida. I feel like Frida Zamba's name isn't really widely known, even though she was a world champ not that long ago. I'd love to hear you speak to any of the women who you feel like have really been underdogs or under-recognized for their contributions. And before you do, I want to say I feel like that's a little bit true for you as well. You really helped carve out this path that I've definitely benefited from and that is making a living in other avenues of surfing that aren't competitive, so thank you for that.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's nice of you to say. That's a good question. I feel like there are a lot.
Speaker 1:In some ways, I feel like the generation that I was in sometimes gets missed, because it was like, you know, serena and Kate Scarrett and Lane Beachley and you know Rochelle and Megan, and those girls were like kind of the generation above me and I sort of came up into them and then and then there was almost like there weren't any. Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but I feel like there weren't that many like superstars, you know, like Carissa Moore and Stephanie Gilmore and Sally Fitzgibbons, and all of those girls were like below me. And so I feel like I was in this group. Chelsea Hedges, like she was there and then she went off and had babies and you know, jessie Miley Dyer did her thing and then now has been super influential in the WSL and everything that she's done for women.
Speaker 1:But there's a lot of women that were just kind of the connectors between the two generations that, yeah, pushed it forward. I mean, I would say that each generation builds on itself and like what the women are doing now in big waves, in barrels in the air, like it is, you know, leaps and bounds ahead of us, and I know Rochelle Ballard feels like really strongly about the fact that if her generation had been given the opportunities that these younger girls did like, if we had wave pools and the option to surf pike unlimited budgets to travel surf Tahiti, like, like, where would?
Speaker 1:we would have pushed it a lot further. But at the same time, I think we, each in our in the capacity that we had, opportunities that we had, like everybody kind of pushed it, you know, and even all of the little achievements that get forgotten because they didn't come with a world title you know it was all part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a real example of that is the WSL bringing pay parity in 2020. That was, that was a big symbolic step forward, but there had been a long, decades-long process of those conversations and fights and small battles to get to that point. That often gets forgotten too, and you were part of that as well. You were the president of the Women's Surfing Union. You stepped in after your college degree and were advocating for women's rights within the I guess it was the ASP at the time, the surfing sporting body. I'm curious about that role, but specifically what steered you away from it? It seems like you were driven to Central America not long after you stepped away from that position.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was really in the end. And it was interesting because when I graduated college and then came in and like I had because I graduated in three years from a UC school like I was hustling. I was like up early doing schoolwork, trying to surf, going to compete on the weekend, taking time away from school to like go on a contest or a photo trip, and all this. And then I finally graduated and I was like I have so much time on my hands Like I don't know what to do with myself. And I had gone to a meeting at Huntington that I think Lane and Rochelle and Serena and all those women had held. That was like, hey, we're doing this women's union, we have this lawyer here to help us and no-transcript path to potential success, not like now where parents are grooming their kids to be pro surfers starting at age five and like homeschooling and all that. Like that just wasn't there. But I so I graduated and I was like, hey, I want to, I want to help. And then it was like four months later or something, I started working with Rochelle a little bit Okay, what can we do and how can I help? And they were like we're going to let you run it and Lane Beachley tells me this and she's, you know, a hero. And I was like I hero. And I was like I don't know if I'm qualified for that because like I'm new and you guys are all so cool and like I'm not cool, but I was like all right. And so Rochelle and I really worked on it together and you know, those girls were all trying to win world titles and that was the benefit that I had.
Speaker 1:I was just a QS warrior, my career was just beginning. I had the time, I had the work ethic and kind of that background, and so I helped them shift it, because they were trying to make a union and just have like the pros pay dues but like none of the pros had any money. I'm like this is silly to raise money from within. Like the pro ranks, like we're there, most girls are trying to like sling pizzas to get to the next contest, with the exception of a handful. And so I was like let's make it like a membership based organization and try to raise money from fans and if we can get like all of these young girls to give us 20 bucks and they're going to get a T-shirt and a sticker and access, because this is before social media, and so there weren't that many women surf magazines, like there wasn't that much content out there for women. So I had I'm like I got this great idea and we're going to make a blog and we're all going to contribute to it. It's going to be like the behind the scenes of like the women's thing, and then we're going to charge memberships and that's a way bigger pool and 20 bucks and everybody's going to do it. We were going to raise money and we're going to have a scholarship fund to help pay the travel expenses of the girls that were really good but didn't have sponsors, to try to crowdsource the group as a whole. And then eventually I was like I'll just do what I can do. I can't do it all, but I believe in it enough that I'm going to keep doing it.
Speaker 1:I was the rep, so I went to the ASP board and, talking about pay parity, there was this friend of a friend whose dad was in the golf industry, and so this guy, he was in his like mid twenties it was similar age as I was at the time and he was like, yeah, my dad's this golf executive and he puts all these golf tournaments on and he has contacts with all these golf companies.
Speaker 1:And you know, what would be really cool is like a surf and turf, like surf and golf event in Cabo and let's have it be like the biggest prize purse ever in professional surfing and equal pay men and women.
Speaker 1:And we're going to get some like a handful of golfers and like a handful of surfers and have this like festival vibe. And I was like that's amazing and I like looked into like the rules and like there's this like hoops you had to jump through to get an asp specialty event approved and they only had like a couple events a year to get Kelly Slater and everybody to be able to participate. Then it had to be an ASP specialty event and so I took the plan to Rabbit and those guys at the ASP board and I think that they're going to be super excited Because here's all this outside money and it's this, like you know, this really cool new idea. And it was really eye opening to me because they were like, oh, we can't do that. We can't do that Because the biggest prize purse in surfing history. That wouldn't look good for the brands and so they denied it and and to me it was like what?
Speaker 1:This is ridiculous and it would have been the first contest that would have paid men and women the same, because up until that point that didn't exist and they said no to it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, makes you wonder how many of those sort of almost moments happened over the years before tipping points come. It makes me think that those experiences made it a whole lot easier to go to nicaragua and like just please say it again.
Speaker 2:That's not how you say it.
Speaker 3:I can't say that my mouth can't make that shape.
Speaker 1:It makes it easy to go to that place it makes it easier to walk away from the surf industry when the surf industry is like not willing to help itself.
Speaker 1:That was really what it came down to. I was in a heat I don't remember exactly where, but I was in a heat you paddle out like five minutes before the previous heat ends and I had friends in the heat before and I was just like cheering for all of them you know, because these are my friends and like look how cute they are, and like I just love that we're out here serving and isn't this sick? And then I'm like, oh, my heat starting. Like now I have to like get into like beat my friends mode. I don't want to do this anymore. I just want to have fun with my friends. I don't want to have to beat my friends.
Speaker 1:And also, this industry is ridiculous. They're shooting themselves in the foot. The women are complaining about how they're not getting anything, but then when it's like well, let's band together and do it ourselves, they don't show up. And then on my sponsorship side, like I'm having to do this like song and dance in a bathing suit in order to like keep up with things and get the contract signed. And I was just like I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 1:And I think what you were saying, dave, in the beginning of, yeah, traveling all over the world is so fun and it's amazing and all the different experiences and adventures and exciting and surfing different ways and meeting different people and cultures and like all the really cool things that I got a chance to experience. But ultimately I was like I want a dog and I want to garden. I want to be able to make my own choice, cause you know, on those trips it's not like you get to be like, oh, what's over there, I'm going to go surf over there because that looks really pretty. It's like, no, the photographer's like, oh, the life's good here, and here's like, oh, the light's good here and here's like the wave where we can get the shot. So just surf this section and then kick out and then do it again and go change your bathing suit and then do it again well, that's like I don't want to do.
Speaker 3:That's interesting to me because that was not my experience, so that that again shows that's very specific to women's. Yeah, women's, yeah, like on every trip I ever did, I I literally would just be like I'm going over there now and doing this and all the other boys would be the same, and the photographer crew who fit in were the ones that would get the invite the next time, and the next time, and the next time the ones who were like no, no, we're gonna do if any if any photographers did that on the trips that I was a part of like not just me, but like the, the teams of surfers that I'd be with they would be on that trip, but they would never come on another one.
Speaker 3:So that's really interesting.
Speaker 2:There was a lot more entitlement, the guys felt a lot more entitled and valued to be able to make those decisions in a way that female surfers, really haven't felt that. I feel like until very very recently.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's so lame.
Speaker 1:What an indicator, too, that's yeah I remember going to uh, the maldives, and we were staying at loe fushi and I I'd never been there before. It's just like beautiful left, you know, over reef and crystal clear water. It was a really long wave, at least in my mind at the time it was like the longest left point break I'd ever surfed. The photographer was like, okay, just surf. He was shooting in the water, so fair enough. And he's like just surf this first section, then kick out. And I would like be like no, I'm gonna keep going. And then he would be like, no, go, just just this section. And then kick out.
Speaker 2:And just being like this is this is silly yeah yeah, I guess that also speaks to the way that surf photographers feel entitled to communicate with female surfers versus male surfers there's a really different kind of communication there, and that's a bit of a slimy space.
Speaker 3:I reckon the surf photographer world is an interesting one. There's so many odd characters who are in the timeline of surf photography. There's some absolute wonderful people as well, but I would say most of those characters are pretty fried, as you would be standing in the sun staring at perfect surf all day, dealing with surfers and not being able to surf. But I can imagine it was probably a pretty uncomfortable space to be in with these mostly middle-aged dudes sweating it up, pointing their long lens at you and uh, you know, you're in a tiny little bikini or whatever. Did it feel like that? Did it feel like a bit of a kind of you'd need to be on guard and like kind of, yeah, just, oh, my god, yes yeah, I mean, and I think, like you said, there's there was all types.
Speaker 1:I had like wonderful experiences with photographers that were like really cool and super respectful. The first international surf trip I went on was to Cabo, and I was very young that I had this photographer and we were going to drive. Some of the girls were flying and some were driving, and I think I got invited to drive and then all the other girls flew and there were a couple of boys that drove, also in caravans, and so I drove with the photographer and I was thinking, oh, this is going to be cool. Like you need to get a chance to like drive down the coast of Baja with, like the surf photographer. Maybe we'll surf along the way. And this is going to be this cool experience. I'm going to save some money, because at the time I didn't hadn't built up the sponsorship money, so like I'm going to save a little bit of money this way. And I think, you know, driving from California to the base of Cabo is like a 24 hour drive, and so you know, you did it in two days and the first night we like checked into this hotel room and there were these two boys that were a little older that knew each other, so they shared a room. And then I was going to share a room with the photographer and I kind of I was so young that I hadn't really thought this all through Like where the what are the sleeping arrangements going to be? And we go into this hotel room and there's just the one bed and it was like you know, I wake up with his like arm across me, like oh, you know. And he's just like, oh, I'm just used to sleeping with my wife. And I was like, ok, fair enough. And then the second half of the drive he's like so you ever, you ever, you ever look at internet, like you know, sex sites, and this is this was like 2000, 94, 95. So like the internet wasn't what it is now. And then I'm just like no, you know, like such a grom.
Speaker 1:And then we got almost the way to the car, all the way to Cabo, but we didn't. We were like two hours short. So we decided to spend another night and this time we were camping and the other boys had their own little tent and the photographer had this truck and he's like we're going to sleep in the back of the truck. And I was like, oh, no, I'm going to sleep in the cab. And he's like no, no, no, I want to lock all my camera gear in the cab, so you're going to sleep in the truck. And I was like no, no, I'm sleeping.
Speaker 1:And so I spent the whole night like curled up in a little ball with this guy's camera gear. And I mean, it's Cabo, it's a million degrees. You know, there's like no AC in the car when the car is off and then so the windows couldn't be all the way down because of the mosquitoes, so it's like the windows are up, I'm sweating and you know how in between, like the bed of the truck and the cab, there's those windows that kind of like open just a little bit. And I wake up in the middle of the night and he's looking through the window at me and I was just like we finally connected with my friends and I was just like I am never riding with him again.
Speaker 1:I ended up buying a flight to go home and that was my first. That was my first photo trip. That wasn't like I had gone to cabo with with Rusty before, that produced that red bathing suit photo, and this was like the next trip and that was my first experience with a surf photographer like that yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, that's that was how that experience was for you.
Speaker 3:It's just taking me back to that time and just, yeah, just a lot of very shitty morals and yeah, just shitty behavior that was so nonchalant and just acceptable. Um, it was a lecherous time.
Speaker 2:My experience like going to surf expo and stuff was just especially as a young well, I was probably 15, I started surfing when I was 14, so like 15, 16, going to surf expo, like with my little resume and photos, like I want to be sponsored, and just the middle-aged men gross.
Speaker 3:Grabbing at you, yeah so bad.
Speaker 2:I'm glad the surf industry has grown a lot since then. There's still a long way to go but it's changed a lot and I'm really grateful, a lot, and I'm really grateful and it's really interesting to hear your perspective from right in the middle of that industry as it was blossoming, and what that experience was like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then we were saying earlier there was this feeling that you had to do that At least. Now you think that if some guy did that, then everybody would talk and be like this guy's a creep, we're not going to use him again. He almost kind of had to go along. It felt like I had to go along with it because if you want to be successful then you need the photos and if you're going to get the photos you've got to be with the photographer and even if it's a creep, if he's got a good relationship with your sponsor, with the magazine, you kind of have to do it.
Speaker 1:As creepy as that guy was, there's a line that didn't get crossed that you would call like sexual assault. But also what was going on was not okay. And that's where I feel like there was so much of that that it is important to talk about, because no one was talking about it then, like, if I had known, okay, that actually really isn't okay, you shouldn't put up with that, that would have been amazing. But I think that also, like I was saying, like my personal experience with like growing up and you know the my mom basically saying, no, this is how you get ahead, like this is what you need to do. You have to be cute and attract the male gaze so that you can get a rich husband.
Speaker 1:And then, you know, for me it was like okay, well, I'm not thinking about the rich husband right now, now I'm thinking about money from sponsors, but it's like, it's like that I had been taught that, and so, while I was like ick, like this is weird, it was kind of like but this is how the world is, like this is what I need to do, like in order to be successful, like I need to use this. You know, because I'm not a world champion, like maybe if I was a world champion, I wouldn't. You know, because I'm not a world champion. Like maybe if I was a world champion, I wouldn't have to. But since I'm not, then you got to use what you got, you know.
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Speaker 1:I do see that some people struggle with it. For me it didn't feel hard. I think that when I look at other people that struggle, I think that there's the combination between when you're a pro surfer and you just think you're the shit, you know. It's like everybody's telling you how awesome you are and you're getting all this attention and you're, you know, maybe you're winning contests or you're in magazines or whatever, and then you're done and then you're like what? I'm just a normal person, I'm going to go lay brick or something and like for me, I struggled with self-confidence, even if from the outside I had to put on this mask of confidence, like to show up at the photo shoot and to like do the thing, but inside I never actually believed it. I always felt like an imposter. So maybe that helped the transition, because all of a sudden I was able to stop pretending to be something I wasn't, and then also because I'd gotten an education, and then, while I was on tour, actually, I got an MBA.
Speaker 1:In the process of getting an MBA, you write like a million business plans, and so one of the business plans I had written as an assignment was a surf school in Nicaragua, because obviously I was fascinated by that. So every all the business plans I made, I tried to like make them like somehow related to surfing, and I was like you know what, maybe I could do this. And in that era so that was 2010. In that era, I'm pretty sure there were only two women's surf camps in existence there was Las Olas in Mexico and there was actually another one in Nicaragua Chupacabrava and so I was like, well, it is a thing that exists, but there's not that much of it. So maybe I could do that. And I sort of kind of started talking to people about it and I was still getting paid as a pro surfer. I had stopped competing, but I still had like some money coming in. It wasn't the bigger dollars that I had before, but I had like a couple of contracts that I had a couple of years left and like all I needed to do is go on a few trips and like go to the trade shows, and so I didn't have that immediate need to actually make money that I think that some people, when their their checks run out now, they had to go figure it out, and then like now, and so I didn't, I had like a little bit of leeway and then also living in Nicaragua is so cheap, especially in that era, like there was nothing to spend money on except for food. That was it Off the grid, you know, like there's no electrical bill. There was no internet at the time, like there was barely any cell signal, and so maybe at that point I was getting like two grand a month or something, which was plenty to live on.
Speaker 1:And then there was a women's surf club in Huntington that I, when I was at the trade show, the woman from the surf club was like oh hey, like do you want to come and like speak at like a meetup that we're having? And I was like yeah, of course I'd love to. And I sort of kind of mentioned to her yeah, I'm thinking about maybe starting this women's surf camp. And she was like oh well, when? Like I'll bring a group, like let's do it. And I was like oh, I mean, I don't know, like maybe next year. She's like no, I'll bring a group now.
Speaker 1:And and so it kind of just all fell into place. Like all of a sudden I had her saying hey, I have 10 girls that want to come. When, when can we come? And that was like the push to be like all right. Well, I guess I'd better figure out like where I'm going to house them and like how I'm going to do it. And so it really happened super naturally, where I had the business plan. I had fallen in love with the place, like I had the connections and, you know, I had the name recognition recognition too, so that, like other people like trying to do that, you know you have to like start something from scratch. At least I already had like the whatever respect to do it, and so it actually wasn't a hard transition. It actually felt so good to be able to like I always used to say I'm like putting on the mask, like I'm gonna go be Holly Beck today, because it wasn't like that image wasn't who I've actually felt I was, and so it was such a relief to be able to put that down.
Speaker 1:And and yet, the things that I missed most about that life was traveling and having like crazy adventures with other bad-ass women.
Speaker 1:And when I moved to Nicaragua, there were no women. I mean, there were like local women, but like there weren't women in the water and the boys that would show up they would bring girlfriends that those girlfriends weren't out surfing that way, like now there's women that surf that wave, but in that era there were no women that surf that wave. And so kind of like, okay, well, these boys are cool, but I do miss that girl energy. And so in starting the retreat it was like, oh well, this is how I'm going to get my girl energy. Like I'm going to bring in these girls and I'm going to take them surfing and I'm going to teach them how to surf, I'm going to empower them and all the things that I didn't have when I was learning to surf I'm going to facilitate them having and that's going to serve me because it's going to pay the bills and also it's going to give me that like girl vibes that's going to keep my spirit going. And so it just all worked out.
Speaker 2:It really seems like being in the right place at the right time has been a recurring theme for you over the course of your career. I mean, of course, you're incredibly talented and intelligent and have an incredible work ethic. But like the time you came of age in surfing and even how surfing found you, that accidentally delivered Surfer Magazine that ended up in your mailbox and that was your introduction to surfing and then you just knew you've had quite a fated surfing life.
Speaker 1:It seems like I say that all the time it was the being in the right place, the right age with the right look still takes that OK, but I'm going to do it and I'm going to show up and I'm going to put in the effort and I'm going to put on the mask and do the dance and make it happen.
Speaker 3:That makes me think of. You know that saying the way you do anything is the way you do everything kind of thing, and I've noted that in other conversations you've had with people like this one we're having now. You speak about how people's personalities and their way in life is really apparent when they're in the water, and I know that's something we can really relate to. We see that a lot here, especially because we live where there's long waves and I think on a point break you really have a lot of time and so you get to see people's personality very clearly in the lineup and on the wave itself. Has that been one of the like the funnest things about doing what you do and like being with people who are beginning or being with people who are just deepening their surfing experience. How does that feel to see that so often? Like to see people maybe see themselves when they're in the water and experience that kind of magnification that comes from surfing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting to think about actually watching the people on the wave. That is true, I think, more so like how they're navigating the lineup, but I like that. When you were describing that, I was like imagining, yeah, how they surf too. It's true, it's part of it and I think that that part has been something that I've gotten into more recently. Just like you know, I've been doing the retreats for 15 years now and in it, definitely over the years, starting to notice those things. Like in a retreat setting, it's like you're actually hanging out for a week so you get a chance to, over a glass of wine or, you know, over coffee in the morning, like start to get to know people on and hear about, like their relationship or their job or whatever. It is like you hear they tell stories about their life that has nothing to do with surfing, and then when you see them in the water drawing that parallel, I think, with women, you know, talking about all these things, it's like all the same themes, like what I notice with a lot of women. Of course, not all is the these issues around, like using their voice, like speaking up for their true feelings and taking up space and feeling like they belong and also how they manage fear and anxiety and like those things. Like I would hear people talk about, yeah, their relationship with their partner and be like, oh, but yeah, it's really annoys me when he does that all the time, but like I can't say anything because that's just him. And then I would see them in the water then being paddled around and clearly frustrated but just being like, oh, I'm, that's just the way it is in the water with the men you know, and, and so it's been interesting to notice that.
Speaker 1:And then you know I got the MBA which helped me transition into starting the business in Nicaragua, and then, after 10 years of doing that, I sort of felt like a similar stagnation. The business was kind of cruising and doing its thing and like feeling really good at the level that it was at, and I had all these like amazing people that were part of the team. I have a business partner that is. Really she and I together are what made Surf With Amiga what it is, and I'd had kids and you know I felt like I was like, okay, like I need new inspiration, like a new kind of almost challenge and bringing in like the therapy part of it. I had a sister who actually passed away from a drug overdose she and her husband both and when that it was right before COVID, like six months before COVID and all of a sudden mental health became this thing where now I'm actually looking at, like my relationship to surfing and how am I coping with things in the surf and how is my behavior in the surf relating to my behavior outside the surf. And I decided to get a master's in counseling and thinking that, you know, I didn't even know surf therapy was a thing. I mean I knew like surf therapy, like taking blind kids surfing, or like taking veterans surfing, or like autistic kids, you know, like surfers healing, like. I knew that those things existed.
Speaker 1:But as I was studying, thinking like okay, I'm going to have to move back to the U? S to like be there for my family, and because my sister and brother-in-law left kids behind but now don't have parents and I had gotten divorced and my kid's dad had moved back to the U? S. So I feel like I need to like give up my selfish needs, to like just get barreled and I need to like go do what's right for my family and I need to go back to the U? S and COVID had started and international surf tourism was not a thing. And so I don't know what's going to happen with my business and I'm going to. It's now time for my third career, like, this is my third act.
Speaker 1:I was a pro surfer and then I had a surf retreat business and now my grownup girl job I'm finally getting and I'm going to be a. I'm going to be a therapist and I'm going to be able to set my own hours and be my own boss, which is really important to me. And then, along the way, I realized that surf therapy is a modality and I got my internship with surf therapy and even that organization was really more focused on people who had never surfed before. It was like people who are working with homeless populations and Syrian refugees and you. They could like reconnect with their body. So it was along those same lines of like autistic kids and all the other things. And, granted, those populations all need the ocean as much as the rest of us. But that wasn't really what I felt called to do, like I was more interested in.
Speaker 1:Look at me I appear very high functioning. I don't have a severe substance abuse problem. I've done all of these things, and yet I have a lot of trauma and pain and things that, like, I'm probably not dealing with super healthfully, and so I want to approach surfing from a more healthy perspective and like how can I be more intelligent about using surfing in a way that it's not just an addiction? It's like I don't have a substance abuse addiction. I have a surfing addiction, but that's a problem too, because if, if you're addicted good waves and then you don't get good waves like you hear people talk about, like if I can't go surfing, like I'm not okay, I used to identify with that as well, and so it made me look at my own surf practice.
Speaker 3:Maybe, maybe I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:No one here can relate to that.
Speaker 1:It made me look at my own surf practice and then it made me also think of like, if I could do therapy in the water and like still help people who appear very high functioning but have all the anxiety, depression, fear of taking up space, fear of using their voice, like overcoming from an accident or whatever, or just fear of, like, getting a wipe out on a big wave or wiping out in front of other people, then then that would be really cool and it would go back to like the things that I loved about being a surf coach, but be able to approach it not just like hey, two more paddles and look down the line and more weight on your front foot, but also what was going through your head as you decided to pull out of that wave. Not just like, hey, you should have paddled a couple more times, and that part has been really, really fun.
Speaker 2:That sounds like it would be really rewarding. I've never done therapy, I've never necessarily been called to it, but I have this experience from when I was a kid that I feel like has definitely shaped my surfing and I've let it hold me back in some ways. I was late 80s, early 90s. I was on a boat with my mom and her boyfriend. They were drinking, having a good time.
Speaker 2:It was Florida, in the intercoastal, like that's what you did, and we parked at one of the little islands in the intercoastal and the water was pretty deep I couldn't touch and my mom's boyfriend he thought I could swim but I couldn't swim and he just chucked me off the side, like having a good time. And I just remember like going under and seeing their faces and it took them. You know, it probably wasn't long, but there was a moment where they didn't realize that I was in trouble but I was and they got me and I was fine. But I feel like that experience of feeling unsafe really translates into the ocean. I am irrationally panicky in moments where I'm getting cleaned up, specifically.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, what I would say is that that's not irrational, right, it's not irrational. That is totally understandable, that you would have that, of course you would. Your little self, these people that you trust to keep you safe just threw you into the water and you weren't safe. So your body remembers that, even though now your mind is like no, it's irrational, it's ridiculous, but it's not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was like a manifestation of feeling unsafe and sort of a larger culture of feeling unsafe because of addiction and substance abuse that was happening around me. But I come back to that moment and now I'm wondering well, I can talk about it, it's not like it's blocked, it's not like it's not like I can't verbalize, but what do I do with it now to move past it and to confront it in a healthy way?
Speaker 1:Right. So I would say the first step is to give yourself grace for feeling that way, like changing the narrative for, like this is irrational and I just need to move past it. Like I think that a lot of people have that a bad experience in the surf or, like you, a child experience in the water, and you're like, oh, this is ridiculous. It's not like your body still remembers and I know that you guys have a kid, just one, maybe.
Speaker 1:Imagine that that kid came to you and was like I'm really upset. I'm really upset and you're like that's irrational. Like what is your child going to do? They're going to keep crying about it, right, and they might even get even louder because it's like I'm not being, you're not hearing me. You clearly don't understand that I'm upset. And until you take your child in your arms and say I see you, like it's totally understandable that you're upset, I'm going to be here with you in that feeling of being upset, Right, and I'm sure that you can imagine, like, what your child would do in that setting. They would just like relax into your arms. What your child would do in that setting. They would just like relax into your arms, and so that's what, like you probably have like little you that's still in there. That had that experience, probably hasn't gotten that.
Speaker 3:Does that mean I can take Lauren out in a couple of days when it's 10 foot here and if we go into the impact zone?
Speaker 1:and I wrap my arms around her like this which would be so awesome for me.
Speaker 3:And we just give a really nice cuddle in the flats before coughing one on the head and I just calm her down. Is that the kind of thing you mean? Should I do that?
Speaker 2:Maybe eventually, oh my God.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, thank you, I've got permission, just then, that is certified permission? Yes, I got permission, just then you gotta cut off me.
Speaker 1:That is certified permission, yeah, but I mean there's a whole process and there's different modalities.
Speaker 1:I've learned a somatic way, so it would be going through kind of a guided visualization of like if you could go back in time and take your however old you were five or something year old self into your arms after that experience, like how could you comfort her?
Speaker 1:And when she is reminding you, when the surf is gnarly, she's reminding you of this trauma, instead of being like shh, or don't talk to me, or this is stupid, or like I'm angry. I don't know about you, but I know that a lot of women and even myself, you get angry at yourself for being afraid, and so it's like removing that anger and finding like acceptance and love. Then that can help that part of you feel seen to then be like okay, that was the healing that I didn't get and that can help kind of put it aside and then and then get a new, a new voice. Like if the little voice is crying and saying no, the water's unsafe and I feel scared and I almost drowned, if that voice is still hasn't been calmed, then it's hard to come in with the voice that says I can do it, I'm safe Hasn't really occurred to me until the last couple of years, and maybe having a child who is around the same age that I was when that happened, I mean, maybe not that's not the only reason.
Speaker 2:But now I've sort of gotten more interested in riding, you know, mid-length slightly well, much shorter boards than I've been accustomed to riding in the past, and also wanting to try and get barreled more, sitting more in the pocket in places where long boards don't usually put you, and so I'm facing it more and more in falling, and I have always crafted my surfing around, not falling and not taking risks for other reasons too, like I grew up in Florida where you could surf around no people, so I never wore leg ropes, and that teaches you to fall in a certain way where you don't lose your board. There's other elements, but also there's this fear piece that I think at some point I probably need to really sit with in a meaningful way and that's what's cool about surf therapy as opposed to like talk therapy, because talk therapy it's like it would be like this.
Speaker 1:It's like you would tell me the experience that you had and then you would talk it through, maybe do like a guided visualization and like some breathing, and talk it through. And then you're like, okay, right, right now I'm going to do whatever. But the cool thing about surf therapy is then, like we do that and then now we're going to go surf together in waves that might be just to the edge of the comfort zone, like there's no point in going way far out, like the 10 foot pounding waves, like that is just going to over overwhelm it, maybe like the forefoot waves right.
Speaker 1:Then you go out together and then it's like okay, like, let's work this through. Like is that voice coming up? What is she saying? What does she need to hear? You know, and you can kind of work with it in the moment. Maybe we're good, or maybe we need to go back into the whitewash and play a little bit, get back into like the play mode, or maybe just going back to the beach, and it's really fun to do. That I've done, you know, in getting my counseling degree, doing so many zoom calls. It's like the person's like yeah, well, you know, the last last week, my mother in law and blah, blah, blah, and then I said, and then I felt in surfing, it's like it's all in real time. So like maybe the person reports to me oh, I didn't go on that way because the guy was there and I'm like because, like, when I saw your face, it's like let's, let's talk more about that. And they're like okay, well, yeah, maybe actually I did feel, you know, the fear, come back. It's really fun.
Speaker 2:What is the research, if there's any say about the role of nature in the therapy process, in the surf therapy process?
Speaker 1:There's a lot of research. Like I said, though, the bulk of the research has been done on people without prior surf experience. So I graduated in 2021. So it's been a few years and maybe there's been since. I was like looking at the research. So maybe there's been a more recent paper that's actually looking at people with existing surf skills.
Speaker 1:But when I was going through the process and having to write all the papers, of course I like read every single paper there was on the efficacy of surf therapy, and every one was taking people that don't have ocean experience and putting them in the ocean.
Speaker 1:And so, of course, like anyone that goes into the ocean, it's like suddenly you're in your body, you know you have to be present, like us, as surfers know. Like you can't turn your back on the ocean. Like as soon as you're like in your mind and like tripping out on something else, like you get taken out by a wave or you miss the really good wave or whatever it is. But when you jump in the water and you feel, you know the sensation of the water and the smell and the sound and and all of that, it activates so many senses that you have to be present. But what I haven't seen is on like the difference of helping someone over like a surfer that already has that, that's like already used to being in the water and having the benefits, but that can approach these issues like fear or whatever, using surfing as the modality to do that.
Speaker 3:I think it's really useful information and also kind of something that taps into the experience Hopefully a lot of us have. Where we live in an area where there are older surfers and you may know a couple of older surfers who have that sparkle in their eye still. They don't have the good old days chip on their shoulder. They're still presently at the beach looking at where they are and how they feel and basically just thriving people, functional and living wonderfully. And we look at them and we go, wow, I would love to be like that, I want to be like that as I grow older and, you know, hopefully we can have conversations with those people and, you know, learn something from those conversations. And I think what you're saying here, like giving that experience more attention and us realizing how we incorporate surfing into a wonderful life to contribute to a wonderful world, would be such a great contribution. And who better than someone like yourself, someone like us, who have had so many hours in the water?
Speaker 3:who have traveled to so many different coastal cultures and learned things from each of them. I just think it is super exciting and I didn't know this is where this conversation was going to go. So I'm really excited that this will be shared with people, because I guess at the center of it is the feeling of making surfing meaningful and useful in the world. Can you relate to that idea?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, one thing that I really want to get a chance to talk about, because it's been on my mind a lot and coming from this predominantly women's space, where a lot of the things that I see are issues around belonging and taking up space, and the reason that that is such an issue is, I think, because of these like competitive lineups, and I know you all live near a place that's very crowded and I don't know how it is there, but here I also live at Point Breaks that are like very crowded and the culture of surfing that I grew up in in the nineties was very much like locals have priority Always. Better surfers have priority Always. You know, if you don't live here and you don't rip, then you don't deserve to be at the peak and the better surfer or the local is going to paddle around you and that's that's good, like that's normal, and priority is determined by the surfer deepest. So if you're a stronger surfer that can sit deeper, then you get more waves and the combination of working with a lot of women and trying to spread this knowledge that like, listen, you don't have to have had the privilege to grow up right in front of the wave or to have had the privilege to start surfing when you were young in order to deserve the opportunity to catch waves and you belong out here because the ocean welcomes all of us and we all have a place in the water.
Speaker 1:And lately I have been noticing that all of the talk around etiquette is still only pushing the idea that the surfer deepest has priority and like recently I saw a surf line on Instagram put out this like series of slides with this like animated line drawings that were really cool and I was like really engaged and I was like what are they saying? Because I teach etiquette, like I believe that as part of learning to surf, it's really important to understand the rules, the rules of surfing and how to navigate a lineup, so that these women can go out there and feel confident and feel safe that they understand how to navigate surfing with other people. And and I used to teach, because that was how I was taught that the salty legend that's maybe you're talking about that surfed there for like before you were born you know that that person women or woman or man has priority because they're the salty legend and they deserve our respect and they're going to get more set waves and like the if you're talking about living in Costa Rica as I do that the pure Tico local. He deserves more waves and so I used to teach that to the women. And then I had this friend that really challenged me to say but is that right? Because they had the privilege to grow up in this spot or they've been serving there longer? Does that mean that they get more access to waves, like they're more deserving of catching waves?
Speaker 1:And the more I've been thinking about it I feel like no, like imagine if just like 10 of us were to all go out and surf like your local break, and we're all friends. There's somebody on a soft top, there's a woman of color who just learned to surf it's her first day ever and she's really nervous. And you know, there's Dave Rostovich, like famous, world famous professional surfer. And Lauren Hill at her home break. Like shouldn't it be that if there were just a few of us that we would take turns and we would make sure that everybody got away Right, and like that is how surfing should be? But nobody's really not. I won't say nobody. Surfing should be, but nobody's really not. I won't say nobody serving at large is not teaching that. If you look at surf line and they talk about etiquette, which I just saw. What they said it did say you know, surf at a spot that's like, appropriate for your skill level, paddle around the peak, don't drop in on people, and whoever's deepest has priority.
Speaker 1:And so at these breaks that I've been surfing lately, I noticed these guys that are paddling circles around everyone.
Speaker 1:In some cases they're good surfers, in other cases they're. They look like they learned as adults but they're competent and they're just doing laughs and I think that it's easy to be the women on the shoulder and go that guy's an asshole. And lately now I've been like I've been trying to model, like using your voice. If somebody's paddling around in circles, I'm a good surfer, right, I could go paddle, battle that guy to the top of the point and end up taking off deeper, like I could challenge him and like win, because I know this wave and I know how to surf. But this woman that I'm coaching, she can't do that, so I'm going to model for her, like hey, if this guy paddles around you three times, what can you do? Maybe you can have a conversation and let him know that you would like to get a wave too. And in having those conversations recently I've been realizing that a lot of these people just don't know that you're supposed to take turns. These men have said back to me but I was deepest.
Speaker 2:What you're saying is such a huge issue in surfing, holly, I'm so glad you brought it up. I feel like it's a symptom of surfing culture having once been something that was so communal in ancient Polynesia and other places around the world when surfing was party waves that's what it was. And then Southern California turned it into something else altogether and we're coming to the pointy end of the like logical endpoint of that individualized pursuit, which is fine when you're surfing a beach break in Florida with no people around. But if you're surfing Snapper and you've got 200 people who all have the same idea about how the lineup works, it is going to be totally dysfunctional and it like lots of places.
Speaker 2:And now many of us are trying to think about how do we take that old system and then also the newer old system of localism and enforcement and using our voices hopefully not in an aggressive way, but also in a responsible way how do we enforce or introduce these conversations of taking responsibility for the spaces that we're all sharing?
Speaker 2:And I would say maybe it's not necessarily that learner's responsibility to say something, but ideally one of the other competent surfers in the lineup would see what was happening and say something. So many times I've been in a situation in the water a guy's dropped in on me and is abusing me or whatever, and I wish that someone else would have stepped in and said something, because it would land differently for that person than me saying something. And now I try to be that person. For other people, especially women in the water, just say you know, like hey, mate, that's not okay. People, especially women in the water, just say you know, like hey, mate, that's not okay. And we're all trying to have a good time here and let's give other people a chance.
Speaker 1:It's hard, but I think that's where we have to go when you have that conversation. Do you find that to be true? Where, if you have a conversation with someone advocating for someone else and say, hey, we're trying to like work together here, do you find that that person understands that it would be nicer to take turns, but just isn't, because my experience has been that they really just like no, but I was deepest, so that means I get more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's mixed, it's definitely mixed. But I feel like if you can really connect with someone and point it out to them, a lot of the time they'll say, yeah, you're right and you know, pointing out the person on the shoulder who's like trying to learn and have a good time, and it's fair for everyone to get waves, like sometimes that lands okay and they get it right and they'll be a little more generous Not always, sometimes they just get angry. But if someone else steps up, if there's three or four or five people who back each other up, then that person's going to have a much harder time of continuing to be a dickhead.
Speaker 1:Right. It does baffle me that even you know how, like in a lot of surf breaks in the world now, they're doing those signs, that that kind of like. I know there's one in other places that's like here are the rules, and again, I feel like the rule that's not on there is that we're going to take turns. It's purely if you're deeper, you get priority and I get like snapper with 200 people there's no taking turns out there. And if it's just a handful of us and you all know each other, then yeah, you're probably going to take turns. But I think the issue is in between and like that idea that everyone has the right to catch a wave and that it's a communal thing, that we should be working together, and I just feel like that is that message. I'm not hearing it and so I've been trying to speak it as much as possible. So thanks for providing the opportunity to have the conversation.
Speaker 2:Really important, really important. I haven't heard you speak much about the relationship between your surfing and mothering. I'm wondering how that's been playing out for you.
Speaker 1:It's been a journey and, like I said, at no point I used to have not a super healthy relationship with surfing, in the sense that I felt like it was the only coping mechanism I had. And so I surfed pretty late into my pregnancy. But you know, you get to that point where I don't know maybe you had surfed until the day you gave birth, but that wasn't my experience and you get to that point where I just like couldn't surf anymore. And then in the first few months of being a new mom it was really hard for me because you know that's a struggle in those days and the coping mechanism that you have you can't do, is really hard.
Speaker 1:And you know, it's kind of gone up and down, like right now my kids are about to be nine and 11. They both have birthdays coming up soon and we've kind of come to this other side, where now my son, my nine-year-old he loves surfing and he's super into it. He just learned how to duck dive. It's adorable and he's this little skinny, little light guy but he can now duck dive and he's obsessed and he's like did you see that turn? I did, like whoop-pow, and it's really cool.
Speaker 1:And my daughter, she's 11. And she's been surfing since she was a baby and she's been surfing since she was a baby and she's very competent at it, but it's just, it's not her thing and she has days where she wants to surf and days that she doesn't. And it's been a challenge for me because obviously I want her to be out there, I want her to love it, like I don't care if they're competitive surfers or they're like ripping surfers, I just want them to be able to come surfing with me so that we can be out there together. And some days that happens and other days he wants to surf and she doesn't, and I'm like having to feel torn between do I like swim in the shore break or do I like paddle out the back with him. And yeah, it impacts my surfing because I just don't have the time to go. And it's actually been something that I've been really like struggling with lately and I think it relates to that conversation that we were just having that I don't get to serve as much and now when I do go serving, I don't want to fight for waves Like I just don't. I don't want to fight Like.
Speaker 1:I want to go out there and like be able to have this like communal experience where, like I'm giving wave away to this person and giving way to that person and like party waving with my son and then I'm like, okay, I'm going to catch one for myself and then we're going to go back and have lunch.
Speaker 1:I go sit at the top of the point and I feel like everybody's paddling circles around me and you know, I'm just been in this having fun, sharing waves, vibe, and it gets really frustrating to where, in some ways, like I actually rode the mat the other day I know you two are mat aficionados and I was like riding the mat just to try to like reconnect with, like I just can't take it so seriously. But of course I mean, maybe you feel differently. Like I love riding the mat and it's super fun, but it doesn't give me the same feeling as like smacking the lip and so like at some point I feeling as like smacking the lip and so like at some point I just feel like I need to like smack the lip and sometimes it's hard, you know, balancing all those things yeah, I think one of the interesting things about surfing in terms of like social aspects is that it's just so varied.
Speaker 3:you know, you can go to a beach, and a lot of us do this around the world. We go to a beach where the waves are less predictable, they're a little funky, they're what some people would say less quality, but you get the space from your fellow human and that's a way to do it. And then there's, I guess, just other times where we just have to figure out how to be together, you know, and things like the mat, things like just body surfing, things like just shaking things up, like that can be really good for us, especially if we get railroaded into old behavioral patterns where you want to go to the top of the point and you want to sit the deepest, and I totally do that all the time.
Speaker 2:I can relate to what you're saying. Like my way of doing the social thing is I just put the blinkers on, but I'll do that all the time.
Speaker 3:I can relate to what you're saying. I was going to say, yeah, like my way of doing the social thing is I just put the blinkers on, but I'll do that for three waves and then I'm out of there. I don't do that for very long, but I'm just like, look, you know what? I don't really want to sit out here and talk with other humans for two or three hours and catch a gentle three or four waves and then be out of here. I actually just want to ride some waves. So I'll just see the ways where I see them, but I'll just do that like two, maybe three times and then I'm out of there and that's sort of my way of navigating those densely social lineups. I wouldn't do that in a quiet lineup. But you know, when you're talking, like over 50 people or something, that's kind of how it rolls for me, you usually prioritize going.
Speaker 2:You like sacrifice. Quote sacrificing quality for quiet space yeah.
Speaker 3:So I guess knowing ourselves in that situation, like how much pressure you may have on your, your need to go surfing, is a healthy thing to understand. Okay, look, I really need to have a bit of time out of mind and away from the human story and and so it's less about, like you know, having the quality of a wave where you can do specific things that you really want to do, like top turns and tubes and stuff, and just go all right. Well, maybe my need is more for space than it is for the technical stuff, and you know, those sort of reflections can be healthy for us before we could just sort of launch into sort of automated behaviors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard, though. Yeah, I'd love for you to leave us with something a little something practical from your holistic surf coaching practice. Is there an exercise or a question or a prompt of deeper thinking that you can leave us with to ponder as we go about our day?
Speaker 1:The practice that I've been trying to do is, before I go out, it's nice to be able to observe the lineup and maybe stretch a little bit or warm up or whatever people do. That's focused on okay, where am I going to paddle out and who's out there and where are the waves breaking, and also warming up your body, but also kind of checking in with your emotional state and being like, okay, where am I at right now and what do I actually want to leave on the beach. I'm going to leave the frustration with my kid not putting their shoes on when it's time to go and what do I need to find in the water. And it kind of like goes to what you were saying, dave, too, about what do I need today? Do I need to just like go and be silly or be social, or do I need to go and put the blinders on and just get like two waves? But I think the one thing that I would want to leave with people more is like kind of tied into what we were talking about earlier is that if you are experiencing fear or anxiety in the water based on a past experience, which is super normal it's giving yourself grace for that, because I feel like a lot of people are like that's stupid and I just need to push past it. But really the most important thing is what would you say to your child if they were experiencing that?
Speaker 1:Or a best friend, if you don't have a kid, if a friend came to you and said that they were really scared? Or a best friend if you don't have a kid? If a friend came to you and said that they were really scared because of something you know, most likely you wouldn't be like that's dumb, like I'm mad at you for feeling that way. You'd be like oh, that was a really scary experience that you had. Like that's totally understandable why you would be afraid.
Speaker 1:But I think that we don't do that to ourselves, and so that's what I would invite people to do Like, whatever it is, whatever emotion that you're experiencing, to try to just ignore it or tell yourself you shouldn't be having it and push through it is not going to be effective. But if you can take a moment to check in, what am I feeling, why am I feeling that? And then go. Well, it's understandable that I would be upset or I would be scared or I would be angry, whatever, because that's normal, considering what I just experienced, and once you can kind of give yourself grace for that, then it's easier to put it down and then go paddle out.
Speaker 2:Time is precious. Thanks for spending some of yours listening with us today. Our editor this season is the multi-talented Ben Jake Alexander. The soundtrack was composed by Shannon Sol Carroll, with additional tunes by Dave and Ben. We'll be continuing today's conversation on Instagram, where we're at waterpeoplepodcast and you can subscribe to our very infrequent newsletter to get book recommendations, questions we're pondering behind the scenes, glimpses into recording the podcast and more via our website, waterpeoplepodcastcom.