Waterpeople Podcast
Stories about the aquatic experiences that shape us.
Listen with Lauren L. Hill and Dave Rastovich as they talk story with some of the most adept waterfolk on the planet.
Waterpeople is a gathering place for our global ocean community to dive into the themes of watery lives lived well: ecology, adventure, community, activism, science, egalitarianism, inclusivity, meaningful play, a sense of humour. And, surfing, of course.
Waterpeople Podcast
Living the Questions: answering your queries
Ever felt the ocean fix what land couldn’t?
This episode, we turn the mics on one another and answer your questions about grief, love, parenting, and crowded lineups.
Hear the stories behind the sails, the garden, and the choices that have shaped us.
Also:
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A couple of years ago our dear friends took us to their favourite hidden gem in Indonesia: Ngalung Kalla Eco Retreat nestled into the cliffs of Sumba. We want one lucky listener to experience it, too.
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Additional music by Kai Mcgilvray + Ben J Alexander
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Welcome to Water People, a podcast about the aquatic experiences that shape who we become back on land. I'm your host, Lauren Hill, joined by my partner Dave Rastevich. Here we get to talk a story with some of the most interesting and adept water folk on the planet. We acknowledge the Bunjalong Nation, the traditional custodians of the land and waters where we work and play, who have cared for this sea country for tens of thousands of years. Respect and gratitude to all First Nations people, including elders, past, present, and emerging. This season is supported by Patagonia, whose purpose-driven mission is to use business to save our home planet. Good morning, David.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, Lauren.
SPEAKER_02:What have you been up to today?
SPEAKER_00:I've been to the local farmers market on the way to School Drop and encountered lots of friends and other locals there and supported our local growers and just had a great time as you do at local markets, and then dropped our boy off at the last day of school for the year.
SPEAKER_02:That's exciting. It's nice to be sitting down with you, getting to have a chat face to face. I have been listening to this a little cheesy, but the five love languages as an audiobook in the car. And it's so sweet hearing the author with his very rich southern accent talk through subjects of love and marriage and you know, all the stereotypes that go with that accent that he's sort of slowly putting cracks into. It's been really sweet. But um I realized that one of my favorite expressions of love to receive is quality time and conversation. So I guess that's part of why I love doing the podcast and love getting to sit down with you and throw some questions around. And today is a different kind of episode. Instead of having a guest, we are turning the mics on one another and answering listener questions. We've got a bunch of really provocative, juicy, interesting questions that we've pulled from you all, and we're gonna dive right in.
SPEAKER_00:Great.
SPEAKER_02:The first one is an obvious one. Tell me, Dave, about a timer experience after which you were never the same. You've answered this before, but maybe think of a different time. I can't even remember what you said last time. I can't either.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I have no idea what I said the last time that was asked. Now I know how people feel when they sit across from us and we throw this one at them. But usually they've been primed a little. So I didn't get one of those. Um and I've thrown right into the middle of things here. So let's say in the last year, I would say there's been a few of those moments where I just don't feel the same after them. And I would say that going on the road with Jack McCoy in his final days and weeks of his life, and seeing him somehow making his body follow his will, even though it was like an organism that was fading, you know. He was so short of breath constantly. He was so kind of frail on his feet, you know, walking and things. You saw how he was shuffling around, and he was struggling, like really struggling with his body, but he was not struggling in terms of his spirit. And seeing how common the dying process is in the West, in a sad, isolated room in a hospital or in a nursing home, or just pushed sort of to the side of things in the way we deal with death, which is kind of not dealing with it in the West, modern Western times, and then seeing how he was doing it. He was on the road showing a film that we were together in making and touring years ago, 20 years ago, Blue Horizon, and he was sharing it with like a few hundred people every night, and he had a stage show where he'd talk story and give back sort of story to his favourite shots in the film and other moments in his life, key things. But it was really that thing of just seeing how he was just fully committed to his art and doing what he wanted to do till his last possible moment. And that the night before his last day on Earth, he was showing his film to a whole new generation and people who had seen that film, you know, two decades ago. And then the next day he was with his granddaughter and he went to look at the ocean and then checked out. And that just left me with this different perspective on the dying process. I feel like my dad split really suddenly and violently and dramatically and in an isolated way, very, very isolated, just you know, solo guy. And Jack just did this in a different way. And so before that experience with Jack and after, I differ in in my perspective on death. And that certainly led to me then diving into the next few months of sailing and going to sea and learning new skills and sharing that with you and Minno and my family at lar like larger family. Really, you saw that happen to me, you know, that feeling where I was like, now is the time. I dream now, I'm dreaming now. Yeah, I'm not dreaming for some later point.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that was the um people keep asking me about the build, you know, building this boat, and there was a bit of a switcheroo that happened where do you want to tell that story? I mean, that that was the immediacy of that moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, that's exactly right. Thanks for the reminder. It was right at the same time I was ill from, you know, nasty river water. I'd had a really unwell few months, the rain had not stopped falling. I kind of lost my building partner in Turin who moved to Tassie with his family, which is great for him. But I was left with a bit of a workload there that I just couldn't meet, and I had a commitment to try and finish the boat by spring, and then all of a sudden, the exact same design, the exact same boat became available to purchase, and I had a bit of a moral dilemma where I felt like I was a cop out for even entertaining the idea of buying this finished version of the build.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But when I spoke with Wayne Lynch, who I deeply respect as a waterman and a sailor, surfer, master craftsman, he said, No, Dave, do it, do it. Just get in the water. You just need to get in the water. People um and are with their boats for years and years and years, and builds can take much longer than you think. And he was just like, go for it. And so I did. And that was coupled with that feeling from Jack and that that just that go get it, brother, like live now. That was so Jack. He was so gung-ho, and it was hard at times to deal with that gung-ho-ness, and I'm sure people who are listening who know Jack could relate to that. But it was also just get busy living, man, or get busy dying. It was just yeah, a beautiful experience. Yeah. What about you?
SPEAKER_02:In the last year, that's the frame we're putting on this.
SPEAKER_00:Or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you had time to prep. I didn't, so I need to make some parameters to help myself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um, per oh gosh, there's freedom and boundaries sometimes, huh? It's nice to have parameters. One of the things that pops up for me this past year is going on an all-friend surf trip for the first time, kind of ever in my life. Like just organizing a trip to do nothing but slide our brains out with friends. You know, we've traveled a lot together, traveled a lot for worky kind of things over the years, but this was markedly different. And it was such a fun buildup being like on text threads with these other women that I love, respect, and admire so much that, you know, I have relationships with as adult women surfers, which, you know, those friendships kind of become rarer and rarer as we get older. But, you know, we're sending each other waves that we're dreaming of, and just like it was the kind of thing that the idea of this trip got us through tricky moments or monotonous moments in our parenting or in our work lives, and we had this thing that we were all looking forward to together. But the spanner in the works for me was that about six weeks out from departure, and I'd like worked with our friend and exercise physio John Comer to like create a program to get us really paddle strong before our trip because it was in the middle of our winter, and so sometimes that can mean people aren't surfing as much or not making time to surf. Anyway, six weeks out, I started feeling really unwell and ended up with a rash all over my body in a way that I'd never experienced before as an adult. And it turned out I had the mosquito-born illness Ross River fever, which pretty much made me feel ancient for a couple of months. My joints seized up super tight and stiff. It's like a, it's basically viral arthritis. Um, and I didn't have a lot of energy, a lot of fatigue, a lot of resting. I wasn't able to surf for that whole time. I wasn't able to train with my friends, even though they were all meeting just around the corner from us here to get paddle fit and strong. Um, I just felt really unwell and I felt so bummed at the timing, you know. Like obviously, this is all in the context of being incredibly privileged, getting to go on a surf trip in the first place. But, you know, when you have that sort of buildup expectation for something, um, it can be a little disappointing. So I wasn't sure if I would actually go or not until the day of the flight. And I was like, well, I'll just go and I'll try. And I needed help packing my boards because I was literally winded from zipping up zippers and carrying a board from the rack to the board bag. And the the craziest thing was like my one of my craziest symptoms that I remember was I would, you know, when you turn over in bed and you just sort of like shuffle the comforter or the duna down your shoulder because you're a bit hot. Well, I remember trying to do that in autumn as winter started to arrive. You know, you get sort of hot and you get cold and you move the blankets a lot. And I remember the feeling of my bicep feeling like it was being torn away from the bone in my arm. It was the most bizarre. Like I knew intellectually that nothing was happening, but it was so incredibly painful. And I was so sidelined from doing almost all the things that I love. I'm so grateful to you for supporting me through that because it was really tough. And so anyway, I decided to go and I had to manage my energy, but overall, I was deeply reminded of the power of being in the ocean to heal us in ways that maybe don't happen on land. Because I was able to surf and have an incredible time. I took some extra naps, but it it was a it was a dramatic shift for me to go and be with women that I love and see these beautiful, beautiful waves, tropical, turquoisey, spinning, um, peeling waves. That's all very healing. And that sounds super cheesy, but it was a great reminder of that.
SPEAKER_00:That links into the chat we had with Arna before you left, where he said the antidote for things like chronic illness like that is enthusiasm and excitement and joy. And he was like, Go, you're gonna be healed by it. And that was, I remember I was saying same similar things but without the background experience of being a doctor.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so he when he said that, I was quietly just like, yes, say it, Anna, say it. And then you went, and you were getting wheeled through the airport on the way there. Yeah, and then you surfed your brains out and you came home. How were you different? So before and after, who were you?
SPEAKER_02:Uh, I mean, I came back energized and full of sun, and my eyes were lit up with tropical spinning waves and a deep sense of connection to this little community of women that I traveled with. And you know, it maybe wasn't like a long arc of time change, but in terms of a before and after, I feel like before I was gray and lethargic and sad, and I came back the opposite of those things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Really excited and inspired to keep making time to be with friends in that really playful capacity.
SPEAKER_00:Wonderful.
SPEAKER_02:If you hadn't chosen this career path, this surfing life, what would you have done instead? Was there a back?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Lauren, what would you have done?
SPEAKER_02:Your turn.
SPEAKER_00:What? This is no, you're so you're just gonna be the hand on the steering wheel the whole time, throwing me under the bus while you get time to think about these things?
SPEAKER_01:You can look too.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, great. That's good. That's the better way to do it. We'll both share this a little bit. Well, in my twenties, early 20s, my plan was to be a cocktail barman and go around the world surfing, listening to great music at night and slinging drinks and what kind of cocktails would you have made?
SPEAKER_02:I'm sure you would be very creative.
SPEAKER_00:Really, really bad ones. I'm a terrible juggler too, so I would not have been like Tom Cruise style guy from the 80s. But that was that plan then. And then in my 30s, when I was really tired of doing the same old thing, but mostly tired of having surfing connected to uh career and just being in the same circles for so long. I was ready for something different, and I actually went and did the teacher training course with Arna Rubinstein for the rites of passage work that he does with young people, and I really loved that, and I recall that being somewhere in my 30s, that being the the new way forward for me, which I potentially will revisit when Minno finishes school, and and I really crave being around young kids because I love the company of kids and youth energy. So that was there in that little brief time, if you remember. I was entertaining the idea of doing beach-centric rites of passage rather than ones in the bush that other people do.
SPEAKER_02:I remember talking about hosting silent fasting retreats for for ease of the facilitator.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, you don't hear any complaints when everyone's sworn to silence and they don't have to cop my terrible food and cooking. That was one thing. Then also, yeah, laymaking, turning the farm here into quite a flower haven and making lays for the local celebratory spaces in the area, weddings. I hope we revisit that one. Yeah. How about you?
SPEAKER_02:So again, I'm gonna reference the five love languages. But so the guy who wrote it, he's he studied anthropology and he's a therapist. He's worked cross-culturally, which I find interesting, and that's why I wanted to listen to that book. And a lot of people recommend it. Have you read it?
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_02:I haven't finished it yet, but it's really interesting in that you basically it helps you think about how the people around you may prefer to receive love in a way different from how you prefer to receive love. And so it helps us communicate better and more lovingly with the people around us. So I think that's a really interesting premise. Anyway, he was talking about how his job as a therapist was basically being trained to ask questions and listen. And that reminded me of how I really wanted to be a therapist when I was younger. Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Never heard you say that.
SPEAKER_02:It was and it was all in the questioning and the listening and the story that I found really interesting. So, in a way, I think this is semi parallel work, but in a totally um less useful way.
SPEAKER_00:Now I know why you say to me quite often, and how does that make you feel when there's certain food on the table and stuff, and I'm always got a sense that there's more to that question. That's not true. Oh, okay. Okay, my turn. There's one on the list that says, Lauren, this is specific, but can you talk about the transition from USA to Australia and what that's been like physically, emotionally, and how you managed it?
SPEAKER_02:Ooh, it was so tough. Do you remember that? It was a really tough transition for me. Like wonderful and easy in terms of surfing and friendships. Obviously, you plugged me into your community here. But it took me a long time to make a community of my own. I feel like it always takes like four or five years in a new place to really find your people and develop trust and relationships. But I often boil it down to like my microbiome being thrown out of whack, having moved from a very sterile, I said it very Aussie, a very sterile American, a very like just like bleached and pesticide sprayed existence that probably is challenging for diversity in general and in our particular bodies, our microbiomes. And then when I came here and we were living in the little cabin that you built, everything was alive. Like your clothes get moldy and the food grows mold within hours. And, you know, we were eating straight out of the soil, picking fruit.
SPEAKER_00:And the water's off the roof. The water. Yeah, exactly. That was the big one, probably.
SPEAKER_02:There was a lot of introduction of new species into my body and around me, and my skin reacted to it, and my immune system definitely reacted to it. Looking back now, knowing what I know now, I think probably I also contracted some sort of mozzie-born illness at that point because I had a lot of fatigue.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That was unexplained at that point. And I kept trying to see doctors, and they were just telling me that I had anxiety and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00:I never like you.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not like that. I'm not really prone to anxiety, but um like that was the physical side. And then emotionally, it was tough on us. It wasn't like it was beautiful because we were falling in love and learning how to be friends and intimate and live together. Like I'm I moved in first into a tent with a friend, and then we lived together from the very start. That was 15 years ago.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And that comes with its own challenges. Living with someone is requires time and attention. And it was tricky to move, you know, far from family and the community that I'd known and the dreams that I had for, you know, maybe going back to university in the States. But I was really open to what was actually happening. And that led me to stay here. And of course, our relationship. That that was what I valued the most. Like really giving us the best try, even though there were lots of challenging elements to making that possible.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say from the outside, you had a common thought you had then and still do is finding a great love and creating a great love, not looking for the perfect love, but growing it and you know, making it like Tom Robbins says. And I remember that being a big thing in the early days, and when you would have wobbly moments of yeah, coming to a new country, different side of the world, those physical challenges, you know, and then still traveling a lot. We were moving around, you couldn't stay in Australia constantly, so we were doing a lot of traveling and and all of that. But I remember that being a thing that you really latched on to to keep your decision making process clear. You're like, Well, what do I is is furthering my education as important? Important as a great love is being in a familiar space like Florida, you know, suburban Florida, is that as important as finding a great love and growing it? And I just remember you coming back to that quite often, and I would be like, Yeah, yeah, think of that one. Let's talk about that. So that was Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You brought up Tom Robbins, and that makes me think of another question that a listener suggested, and that's about your favorite three books that have helped shape who you are today. You brought up Tom Robbins. Um, he's an incredible American writer of fiction. His book, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues, definitely and others definitely had a huge impact on me. What what are three that come to mind for you that, and this is important, they're not your favorite books. They're three books that helped shape who you are today.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so we're not gonna do the guess the other person's three.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, let's do it. Okay, let's do that.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so well, you gave me a hint there. So my the three that I feel may have shaped your life are certainly women who run with wolves. Ding ding-ding. That should have like a happy yay sound with that one, because I know that's true. Yeah. The other one that I know for sure would be an Oprah Winfrey, what I know for sure. Perhaps. And then the third is a questionable one for me, actually. And I think maybe it would be a Tom Robbins one of his, but I wouldn't have been able to say which one because he's written so many. I can't remember which one really stuck with you the most. I know the one that starts about the unbelievable vibrance of Bee Troot.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Is something that I feel like has stuck in your mind.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, for me, for me, definitely he definitely he is on the list. I'm not sure exactly which book, but just go with Tom Robbins in general. The way he weaves both fictional story and conversing about everything politics, religion, love, life, food. He weaves it all in in the most interesting way. His play of language just like has always inspired me.
SPEAKER_00:So tell us the three that you have.
SPEAKER_02:So I'm gonna say that one. I'm gonna say even cowgirls get the blues. And then I'm gonna go way back and I'm actually gonna say the Bible.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:Not because it is has been my preferred reading, but because it was my childhood. I was drawn to the Christian church in my teens, and I loved it for its sense of community. It definitely offered something that I wasn't getting anywhere else in my life. But it was where I discovered question asking to be problematic in some settings. And so I started asking too many questions of my Sunday school teachers and they didn't appreciate it. And I was questioning things like, well, Eve was made from Adam's rib. That's not like biologically possible. What do we, what is that saying about women and gender and anyway. So it was too much.
SPEAKER_00:Did you then ask? And how does that make you feel? The little therapist in you coming out at a young age?
SPEAKER_02:Probably. Actually, where I think where all of that question asking comes from is asking so many questions of my mom and dad, who are both like pretty notoriously vaulted people who were none, neither of them have been very forthcoming with stories about our family. And I was always really curious about that. Maybe that comes back to my love language being like quality eye contact conversation. But by not getting that, maybe I've set out into my adult life just hounding people with questions. Okay, third one, a major turning point for me was reading Brian Weiss's Only Love is Real in high school. I had this incredible teacher, Mr. Fecto, and he taught sociology, psychology, and he introduced us to these very esoteric left-of-field experiments from people in psychological studies. And one of these was Dr. Brian Weiss and his book, Only Love is Real. And I guess maybe one of the seeds of how you were talking about earlier about me wanting a great love really comes back to that book, Only Love is Real, and the mysticism and the magic of this world. And how we, you know, I guess I'm probably most naturally a more logical person, but books like that helped create an awareness of like there of there being forces that are so much bigger than our minds can comprehend and love being one of those forces, whether you think about it in terms of like a mystical, fated sort of experience or something else. What about you? Three books.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, Lauren. What about me? The three books.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay, yes. Uh so I'm gonna go with a Ben Oakry book. He wrote a book called Astonishing the Gods. Bing, bing, bing. Yes, that's correct. Albi Falzon planted in your life, if I'm not mistaken, and you come back to it time and again. I think it's your most gifted book.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I feel like Women Who Run with the Wolves that you guessed is probably my most gifted book. Okay, number two. I'm gonna say Drunvalo's Book of the Flower of Life. It's one of the books that you've always had around. It's come with us no matter where we've lived, and it's still around.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah? Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:That was the third one.
SPEAKER_02:That was easy. Um third one. Maybe a lunag book. It's another one that I see you pick up all the time. That's true. Cartoons that are deceptively simple with deeper reflective meaning from the great Australian cartoonists.
SPEAKER_00:Right on, yeah. Musings from the inner duck.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Check him out. Yeah, so the the three I would choose definitely Astonishing the Gods by Ben Oakry. And uh it is so masterfully written. Oh my lord, just stops me in my tracks. One sentence, just I can reread over and over. It's just stunning, absolutely stunning. Second one would be Leonard Orr's Breaking the Death Habit. Oh, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02:That one has always been on the shelf.
SPEAKER_00:I rebought that one recently, and I was going to gift it to someone, but then I couldn't let it go, so we've still got it on the shelf. And that one for when I read that I was around 20 years old, and that was all about his quest. He was the guy who started rebirthing as a healing um modality, which was basically being in a bath and doing a certain breathing pattern, and he found that it would take people back to their births, and if their birth had been traumatic, the person could essentially review that birth and release the tension and the trouble in their body from that birth. So he's a pretty cosmic guy, but he went on an even more cosmic search to find living immortals, people who had lived beyond 200 years of age in the one physical body. And that book is unbelievable. And that's actually what got me started in my 20s with doing personal experiments. So fasting every Tuesday, being silent every Tuesday, having days of rest, just experimenting, also being aware of the benefits of being around a fire, because he states that every immortal had the same certain things going on, no matter where they were from around the world, and that was every day they bathed in fire and it cleaned their energy systems in their bodies. Every day bathing in water. So we've got that one pretty sorted. And then everyday music playing and being in a creative act, so art and music basically being an adoration of life, the universe creation. And then there were a few other things, but that one's a definite one. And then the third one's, I guess, a bit of a meandering one, perhaps. Yeah, those flower of life books.
SPEAKER_02:I mean you have it tattooed on your foot.
SPEAKER_00:The pattern, yeah. Something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:What's next?
SPEAKER_02:This person writes in, I would love to hear more about what it took to be living the way you all do. Home, farm, surf life, garden life.
SPEAKER_00:What do you think of when you hear that question?
SPEAKER_02:I think of over the long arc of time. I feel like I've been in an especially busy season the last few months. But over the course of our decade and a half together, I'd say we very much prioritize spaciousness and time, owning our time. And that has meant saying no to things and definitely saying no to money to things at times. But retaining the ability to respond to the conditions of the living world, the wind, the tide, the swell, that's definitely been a constant, and hasn't always been true, but it's definitely been a guiding part of life to keep surfing as much as possible has definitely been one of those pillars. And then with the garden, I feel like the garden was just an like it became another outlet for connecting with the elements, different elements at different times.
SPEAKER_00:I think when I look at that question, it says home, farm, surf life, garden life, they all feel like things that neatly sort of slide in with each other, kind of like a piece of music, you know, like you don't do all the strikes on a drum or a guitar or a toot of a horn and a lyric all in the same beat. They come one after the other. And you know, if you haven't heard the drums for a moment, because there's some beautiful strings playing, then when the drums come back in, you're like, ooh, that feels good or sounds good. And so for me, it really feels like that. The wind's been on shore, it's full of blue bottles in the water. You know, it's a little bit of a stretch to just be on autopilot and be like, I've got to serve every day. So we let it go, and then it's like, wow, look at this though. With all this sunshine and this north wind, everything's growing like crazy. And then you we get in the garden or we get busy like yesterday. You know, I went to the ocean to get to specifics here. I'll give you an example. I went to the ocean after dropping me out at school. I was hoping to go surfing, it was quite wobbly. A big group of sharks had just come through the lineup. There was not one single person surfing, and I thought, today's probably not the date. And I came home, lit up, because I had a huge roll of mulch that's been sitting on the farm for ages. And I threw it in the back of the Ute, and I drove around the land and I mulched around all the plants and tended the tarot along the edge of the creek, and then continued on with lots of farm jobs all day. It just got in a rhythm with it and was really enjoying it because it had been a while.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and uh, and that was that, you know. And so I feel like that's quite the dance here when it comes to those specifics, how they happen. One goes, you know, one is happening now, and then the other is not, and they just come and go, like, today I went for a swim in the ocean. It felt so nice to just go and flop around in the shore break for a moment after being so terrestrial and busy, busy working guy on the land yesterday. So I like the way we do that, and having the option to do that. Yeah. Knowing that, yeah, you can't do them all at once. And in fact, it's none of them really uh none of those efforts really thrive and are at their best, and we try and do them all at the same time. You know, like, oh, I've got to get a surfing today, then I gotta go do this work, and then I've got to do this. It's not really our way.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, here's a left left field one. I would love to hear your thoughts, the question asker wrote, on how we can all work together to make surfing communities less divided between long and short boards as well as beginners and experienced surfers, as our favorite surf spots continue to get busier and a more diverse selection of watercrafts riding waves. Ooh, what comes up for you?
SPEAKER_00:Well, what do you think? Because you surf the places where there's more range with beginners and all of that kind of stuff when you think of the bay and the waves you longboard.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we talked about this a bit in our episode with Holly Beck. She's a surf coach and a therapist. I think I I'm a real, as I'm getting older, I feel a real responsibility to take responsibility in the lineup to um to like make eye contact with people, first of all, say good morning, like make it a lovely space to be with people when it's a crowd. Like I it's so funny when people try to pretend like no one's there by putting the blinders on and just paddling by people without acknowledging their humanity. I have a pee for that. Um, but also when people are doing the wrong thing, when they're dropping in, when they're paddling around, when they're snaking, whatever, like taking the time to call it out in a friendly, sort of jovial way, I think is the direction that we have to be going if we're gonna be surfing crowded spots without like going into it too far. That feel that have really taken that on in the last couple of years. Just like if you see something, say something, be kind about it. If the person is being naughty and behaving back to you in a an aggressive way, like make sure there are other people to back you up.
SPEAKER_00:That's the key thing, I think, too.
SPEAKER_02:Especially for women in the lineup.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh man, gee whiz. Yeah. Yeah. If yeah. I I had that sort of moment not long ago where I was playing at the end of a wave, right at the very end of a wave with Minnow, a couple other parents who were with their little kids, like just the very end of a long wave, nowhere near the zone where people are taking it seriously and stuff, but still someone came through and did the wrong thing and then had whatever reason in their head to yell at the person that they just run over. And I called the guy out on it and sort of stopped him in his tracks by calling him out. But I had someone else with me verifying my point of view with him about educating this man, especially given that he was yelling at a lady in the water which just pushes my buttons. But it was really effective to have a a few of us educating this guy so he didn't just think someone else was getting personal perspective. It wasn't personal, it was I think that thing sticking together, and if you see someone playing up like that and working as a community to educate them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it just comes back to take like looking out for each other.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So yep. And then when it comes to surf craft, it's just like no one has any right to tell anyone what to ride. It's just ridiculous conversations, not even worth ever having with someone. But when you look at the way surfing is now, as it where it used to be in the 90s, I've said this for years because I've been sharing boards for years with friends who were struggling on the pointy nose thruster of yesteryear, and when I got them on a stretched fish or something with a bit of foam, they just had so much more fun.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I realised lineups are actually happier these days because people are being able to catch a wave more easily, which means they'll probably that if you go, there's not so much desperation, and then when they ride them, they're having fun. So, you know, there's just there's nothing to gain from comparison when it comes to saying longboards suck or shortboards suck or anything of that nature. Um, it's just a matter of choice, and it's really wonderful when you see someone make the right choice, which means they're having fun.
SPEAKER_02:We still do love to demonize a particular craft. Not we, but like as a culture.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I'm thinking about the boat deserves it. What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_02:I'm thinking about SAPs a few a few years ago that were really like really um sort of given the side eye from many of us. And now foils. I wanted to ask you about foils in and around the lineup. What's your feeling?
SPEAKER_00:Well, quite often those those two have been the you know, have copped it from people just because of the safety factor.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I remember when the SUP thing came along, that's what it was. It's because generally it was people who were new to surfing and new to lineups would bring a big board like that into a lineup and just be clueless and let the thing swing around and take people out.
SPEAKER_02:And remember, we were seeing people getting punctured lungs and broken ribs and one of our first episodes, Crystal Jameson talked about that happening too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so that was a thing there, and then the foil thing was is similar where it's like, okay, near to people, probably not the great idea. And I think that just comes down to that as a safety thing and figuring out like most things, like with jet skis when they first came out, we don't know the parameters, we don't know exactly what they're good for, where they belong, and then you know they've been put in their place nowadays, hopefully in most lineups around the world, probably the Gold Coast excluded, where we go, oh yeah, jet skis are great for rescue factors and when the waves are ridiculously enormous, but they're not for use to do step-offs in a four-foot or six-foot wave somewhere like Kira or a beach break around other people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. If you've enjoyed listening to the conversation so far, consider also subscribing to Water People on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It'll help other people find the show. And if you're feeling inspired, leave us a review. We love hearing from you. And now a word from the folks who help make the podcast possible. Patagonia is in business to save our home planet. Founded by Yvonne Chenard in 1973, Patagonia is a surf and outdoor apparel company based in Ventura, California. As a certified B Corp and a founding member of 1% for the planet, the company is recognized internationally for its product quality and environmental activism, as well as its contributions of nearly$230 million to environmental organizations. Its unique ownership structure reflects that the Earth is its only shareholder. Profits not reinvested back into the business are paid as dividends to protect the planet. Learn more at Patagonia.com.au. Many of us look to supplements and special diets to maintain our health, but ignore the obvious. We are water. It's what we're made of, and it's what supports every bodily function. Primal water, the water our ancestors thrived on, is energized, alkaline, and made for real hydration. It doesn't come from the industrialized, often contaminated water systems most of us rely on. For the last 25 years, Alkaway has been researching and refining ways to mimic natural water systems. We invite you to learn more about primal water and support their charitable work with BirdLife Australia. Head to alcowe.com to score a$50 discount using code WaterPeople. That's Alkaway.com. What do you do when your sunglass lenses inevitably get scuffed or scraped? The top drawer of our kitchen island was where scratched sunglasses went to die until we learned about the sunglass fix. They've been at the forefront of the repair revolution since 2006 and carry more than 600,000 lens options. So there's a solution for every frame. We found our Sennies on thesunglassfix.com and within a few days received brand new polarized lenses to easily install at home. A billion pairs of sunglasses are made each year, with hundreds of millions ending up in landfill. The SunglassFix offers free lens shipping in Australia and two 161 countries around the world, as well as subsidized express tracked shipping worldwide for less than$5 in any currency. They're a proud member of 1% for the planet and are ready to help make your favorite frames last longer. Use the code WaterPeople for 10% off your purchase today at thesunglassfix.com.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, this question is uh what's the one thing? One you'll have many, I'm sure, for me, but uh what's the one thing that drives you nuts about the other? Well Over the years, hopefully I'm getting better right now, but I know stuffing has always been your thing. Hundred percent. It's been like, I want a clean space. And so I'll just grab things and just stuff them somewhere.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. So basically like underneath the issue is like we have different ideas of what clean means. And for Dave, that often means just eradicating the space of clutter, but not necessarily putting the things back where they might live permanently. Maybe they all just go into a drawer hidden away. But then the bomb site that was the room is now in the drawer, but you still have to go through the thing in the drawer. So yes, you've nailed it.
SPEAKER_00:But then I do the thing in the drawer too over time. Remember how you mean who does that top drawer that you can do?
SPEAKER_02:You're getting so much better at it. And I only see it in you because I have that same tendency as well. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So it's still actually stuffing.
SPEAKER_02:100%.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I thought I'd evolved out of that.
SPEAKER_02:I love that it has a like a clear single word that communicates so much. That's how long it's been around. And it's a real problem in this climate because if you stuff things, then they get moldy and then they get ruined, and then you just have to throw them away, which is probably your strategy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Anyway.
SPEAKER_00:So my thing about you is not stuffing. It's nearly as good as stuffing. It's two words, but not stuff. I would love it if you stuffed.
SPEAKER_02:What are we talking about?
SPEAKER_00:Because if you just put it away, then I would look around and be like, oh, how clean and good is everything right now. And then I wouldn't mind if it was all some drawer hidden in a corner.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, stuffing and not stuffing. Is that enough? Have we revealed enough? No. No. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:You didn't even say anything. You just used a lot of words that say nothing.
SPEAKER_00:Drive you nuts.
SPEAKER_02:How deep do you want to go?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I would say the on the top of the pile, which is a tiny pile, is mango seeds and date seeds.
SPEAKER_02:The date seeds.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so there's two things here: mango seeds, because there's still so much good meat to eat around the seed, but it's not as enjoyable as the cheek. We all know that.
SPEAKER_02:I enjoy it, but I just get full by the time I get to the seed.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, your tiny belly. And so filling that extra bit. I'm sure it's that. But anyway, I quite often I find an entire ant colony around that seed. And I think, wow, look at that mound. And then I shake them all off, and there's a seed underneath there. And the other one is the date seeds. If anyone knows what a date seed looks like from a distance, it's literally a rat nugget. It's mouse poo. Convinced, and I'll find them all over the joint. In the shower. Next to the soap and the toothbrushes. I'll find them on the couch. On the lovely couch, just on the side, where I'm like, yep, Lauren read a magazine. She had a date. She had a shower. She had a date in the shower. I'll find them next to your computer thing.
SPEAKER_02:That's my moment when I'm like, yep, I can have it all. Hot shower and a delicious, fresh, meduled date. Wow.
SPEAKER_00:So I usually scoff and do whatever that sort of sound is. And then I laugh because I'm like, I imagined what you were doing and how much joy it was bringing you to do that there, that you just step up and walk away and leave a seed.
SPEAKER_02:That's kind.
SPEAKER_00:There we go.
SPEAKER_02:We were kind. How did you find my address to start writing letters?
SPEAKER_00:Well, it wasn't too many hundreds of years ago. So there was a thing called internet and emails. Yeah, yeah. So if that's what they mean by letters. So that was the thing of still my favourite surfing image of a lady ever. And it's you hanging 10 in your Paisley shirt with the what looks like a necktie hanging down your hair in a disheveled beehive.
SPEAKER_02:And um that style of shirt I now know is called a pussy bow.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow. Okay. So yeah, wearing your pussy bow and and hanging ten. And it was just the most gobsmacking image and still is. You recently asked me to get an iPhone for the big sailing adventure, and it is the picture on the front of the iPhone when I turn it on.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I feel like a demon in that posturing. I didn't ask you to get an iPhone, I just asked you to get a phone that is able to communicate both with text and calls. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I get it. No, it's a good safety net for when you're at sea. But yeah, that image is there. So every time I I um use the telefrican, there's your beautiful face. So I got that picture burnt into my brain when I saw it, and then reached out to my friend who was communicating with you for being able to run that picture in his book, and and I got your email and we wrote and we wrote and we wrote.
SPEAKER_02:Our internet romance. Do you remember the moment when you each thought this is the person I want to do life with? Oh, that's a sweet question.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I remember being 20 in your living room with your partner at the time. And I remember just looking at the way you'd set up life and not having a TV in the house and spending lots of time in the ocean. And the people that were around you, really creative, fun, quirky folks. Everyone was a bit older than me. So there was that layer of aspirational age thing built into it too. But yeah, I remember going, wow, this is this is a life I want to live. And this person, like, I wanna I want to know what life is like with this person, but that wasn't possible at the time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, same thing. It's so fantastic. We have the same moment and we weren't ready for each other. I was 25 or something, you would have been 20. Yeah. So 20 or 24, 25.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and I remember similarly just being like, oh my word, there is a woman like this that exists. I hadn't entertained the idea that there would be someone like you who had convictions and morals that you were willing to follow through with at a young age, like you know, 20. I was so impressed that you were a vegan, that you had hairy legs, that you had unbelievable chops in the water. Your surfing skill was a huge thing for me, just to be able to s to to look into the nature of you. Um and uh just to yeah, just to see that you existed was just shocking to me that you were someone I could see living a life with, but I couldn't at that time. I was in a committed relationship, and I just remember watching you on waves, listening to the tone in your voice, honey-like tone that I just could listen to all day. And then the things you were saying, your third-wave eco-feminist perspective, wow, what a refreshing one that was. And then your willingness to stick to that choice of not eating anything with a face or a mother. And I remember having similar tendencies at the time, but I wasn't fully into that level of being vegan. I I wasn't eating fish and things like that. But you know, we aren't vegans now. No, but it's a thing of consideration. I feel like you were so considered, you still are so considered. And it was just, yeah, it was almost a little bit torturous to just be like, wow, you exist, but I can't be with you. I'm with this other person. And that's why then, you know, a few years later, when I happened to be single and available, I saw that photo of you, and why it struck me. And I was just compelled to write to you immediately on the thinnest one in a million, you're saying there's a chance, possibility that you could maybe also be single, and maybe we could hang out. And it was incredible that when I reached out, you were also single. And in that moment we could talk and we could perhaps get together. Yeah, super special.
SPEAKER_02:It really is. And when I reflect on doing life together and being at our age when a lot of people are splitting up, a lot of our friends are deciding their relationships aren't going to continue on. I just think about you and us and how I knew from so early on that there is no one better matched for me than you. And any issues that come up, and there are plenty of issues, those issues would come up in any relationship because they're because I'm contributing them probably maybe more so than the other person, and that everything is worth working through because of I mean, largely your ability to communicate and to listen and to have a sense of humor and heavy moments. And yeah. Early on I was I was struck by your willingness to sit and and really talk things through in a way that I hadn't really experienced from people in my family. And so I knew we could kind of work through anything if we could keep doing that. And I wanted to, you know, I wanted to have that level of openness and communication in that love space. Yeah. Okay, another question. What's your number one ingredient for building and staying in a loving relationship? Partnership, they wrote staying in a loving partnership.
SPEAKER_00:Uh one of the things for me is love notes. I've really latched onto that as a thing because we did that so much when we were first together. And for me, it's something I just do whenever I think the thought now. I'm like, and I'm near a pen and paper, so if I'm around the house, then I'll start writing. Or when I'm about to leave the farm and I know you're gonna come home, I think, oh, wouldn't it be cool for Lauren to come home? And out of a day of doing this, thinking about getting stuff done, all of a sudden, here is a note that stops that in its tracks, and you hear something from me that's just about gratitude for you. Something that I see in you that I really am feeling at that time. And uh I I've latched onto that because you know, like you've said, things change as relationships grow and go further down the line and stuff, and maybe yeah, you don't say the sort of every night I love you before you go to sleep thing. Do some of the things that you used to do, like every day, you know, they change.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you've got a child that wants you, and you're tired, but you've got to read or you've got to prep things for the next day, and life just changes in that time. But there's just something among all of that that I have latched onto when I think of writing love notes and stashing them in places where you'll find them in a in a surprising way, even if it's not in a inner space, it's in a time that'll surprise you. For me, that's one specific. You know, we could talk big picture here and think about ideas, but I'm saying a specific that's what I that's what I do. And I know that it means something to you when you see them and you go, Oh, thank you. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there are a lot of things. I think probably one of the most meaningful things to me has been laughing together, especially having a young child or being in really heavy situations where one of us is bleeding or broken in some way. Um, being able to really see each other in a clear-eyed way and still be able to laugh amongst the chaos. That's like I really get hit by those heartfelt moments when it's the light on top of the heavy. There's something effervescent about that that makes always makes me feel more connected to you. How did you both deal with a newborn baby while being addicted to waves? We took turns. Yes. We took turns. Yeah. That was it. We supported each other and and we've we find the joy and each other's joy. I think that's really important.
SPEAKER_00:Totally. Yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_02:There's energy in that for both of us. Yeah. Um, was there ever a possibility of you two settling in the US? Oh, I'll throw that one to you.
SPEAKER_00:Pretty much no.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. We did talk about it for a little bit when I was thinking about going to get my master's in Hawaii.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's true. Hawaii and maybe still Hawaii period period for periods. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's pretty of a culture shock for us these days when we go back to Florida or Yeah. And the experience to be specific, like the experience of having a child, and that child now is eight years old, he's broken two arms and one leg, he's been hit by scorpions, he's like a little adventure boy, and he's not crazy, but he's he's not risk averse.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And we end up at the you know, the emergency department every year, and so do I.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so the experience here in Australia, where certainly it is not a perfect system, but the experience that we've had, which is you go in, you get great care immediately, yeah, and you leave hugging the people and saying thank you, you don't sign or fork out money, comparing that to our experiences in America, where we've gone to just get his temperature checked and been denied because we weren't with the right insurance companies or whatever, and the frickin' people at the emergency thing wouldn't even take his temperature. Yeah. Stuff like that, I think, is a huge one for us now as young parents. We're like, well, actually, our preference is for health and well-being and safety, and we just don't feel it there. I I certainly don't.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I never thought I would say that I don't either. I did not expect that. I didn't expect to feel that way, but I really do now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, here's a bit of a complex one. In what ways has societal or family pressure of what a relationship should look like tested your confidence in how you choose to be together? If it did or does affect you, how do you both stand firm together that you're comfortable shedding the expectations? And the question writer wrote, This is an adapted version of a question by Mel Robbins to be transparent. Does anything spring forth for you from that question?
SPEAKER_00:Not really, actually. I think it's our relationship is such a personal choice, a personal experience with so many unique to us aspects that I don't find myself looking to many other people for uh insight into how you and I can be together.
SPEAKER_02:I know I had some pretty like full respect to my mom and dad and their subsequent partners afterward afterward, but I feel like I didn't have super aspirational relationship modeling around me that I felt like were successful. Um, and so I had a real clear vision of wanting to create something specifically around closeness and communication and a lot of time spent together. And I know that's not possible for all families. It wasn't possible in my family because of the pressures of the cost of life and then single parents. Those are pressures that I haven't had to face.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like for us, we just know when things are in a right sort of way and feeling healthy and when they're not.
SPEAKER_02:Can we can we talk about this? Is this different than that? But I was chatting with our friend Zara in the water a couple of days ago, and we were talking about what happens when we're out of orbit. Like how do we how do we each respond? And I was like, oh, well, we just both shut down. We don't like we ignore each other, and that's probably not like the healthiest way to respond. But what does happen because of that is we don't say things we don't mean. And I feel like that is that is a um that is an unspoken value of our relationship. We don't yell, yeah, we don't scream, and I'm not saying that we're perfect in any way. This is just our adaptive strategy, one of many. And we never say, really, I can't remember ever saying something I didn't mean, or you saying something that you didn't mean out of the fire of immediacy of the moment.
SPEAKER_01:And that's where that strategy has served us well.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, yeah, and I saw I definitely saw a lot of screaming and yelling and violence in my home. And I and I have consciously wanted to create something more peaceful and communicative.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Sometimes that means ignoring each other.
SPEAKER_00:But in that ignoringness, it's like the knowing that okay, this is surface chop, we always go back to that. This is surface chop. It'll it was deeper underneath that surface level, which is always changing and swirling, is a deeper feeling, and that's that one of us just being so perfectly matched for each other. That it's like, yeah, well, there'll be wobbly times on top. There always is.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:They're just the nature of the world and life, but underneath is that solidarity.
SPEAKER_02:And the thing that always for me, the thing that heals that distance when it does happen is like the sitting down or open-hearted eye contact conversation. I don't know if that's the same for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I like it when we break a cycle like that, you know, with one of us saying how much of an idiot we've been. Yeah. And you can have a laugh at yourself. Then you're like, okay, I'm really. Laughter's always part of it.
SPEAKER_02:Laughter's always part of it. The breaking the breaking of that.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Just then there's like a willingness to talk because you're like, you're acknowledging the fact that you've been a knucklehead and you're not so weighed down by all the considering. Because I feel like in those sort of full out-of-orbit, dark and moody times, there's just a lot of internal dialogue going on. Like, how do I feel about that? Did I actually do the wrong thing there? Didn't I? Do I really feel super duper strong about that one thought? There's a lot of that going on, which is nice to hear you say that it's a good part of that sort of quietness is that there isn't that fiery reaction where you just say silly things. Yeah, good question.
SPEAKER_02:What are your boundaries or thoughts around faithfulness, loyalty, and monogamy? We've never really spoken about this before, but I'm interested to get your opinion about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well something real left of field could come out right now. I keep saying left and field. Something real juicy could come out right now. Really? Why?
SPEAKER_00:Why do you say that when you look at me? Well, I you know, you know my story of my life before we were together.
SPEAKER_02:I just want to say that I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, your faces to hear the tone go up then and and your voice and there's a big smile.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like so the the work of being an adult human is becoming more of yourself. And for as much as maybe we like to think of ourselves as subversive or pushing against convention in some ways, we're so conservative in the ways of our relationship. Would you agree?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Can you give me an example?
SPEAKER_02:Well, just in terms of like being loyal, faithful, and monogamous.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like we aren't married, but we just want to honor each other. I feel weird speaking for you, but I want to honor us, and that means yeah, staying loyal to that long goal.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And because I'm many years older than you, Lauren, I speak or experience in a way. Well, you know, my relationship. Life before we were together, I had that experience of open relationship experiment, and yeah, like more of a fluid idea of what uh intimate relationship is. And and it was a short-lived idea that I was, you know, asked to live through. And for me, that was so useful to have that experience to realize how much energy it takes for us to maintain a healthy, deeply intimate relationship. Just one. Just one.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and so that experience for me of having perhaps more than one showed that no, that's that's really complex. There's a lot if someone can do that and everyone is feeling respected, seen, heard, honored, full of joy, then good on you if you can achieve that. That's fantastic. That's like you've got some serious capacity. In my experience, I I could not do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so I love, I love the feeling of being clear and devoted to this relationship. That's enough. That fills me with a type of faith in it that even through wobbly times or death and birth, all these things that can be make or break situations, we just will hold each other and laugh and cry and laugh again. And that gives me faith in the value of being loyal.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it really is. I've I'm so grateful for our relationship. I feel like this is getting out of control how much we're talking about it right now. Um just the foundation that comes from having stability at home, whatever that looks like for you, but having that stability and support has allowed me to to work in different capacities and have a surfing life and have rich friendships because of the stability at home.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I feel like one of the questions there too, we may have just scrolled past it, but was one around, you know, supporting each other's work and efforts. Yeah. And I I feel like that in this relationship with you that there's this, there's this need for what it is you do. There's this need that is met when you're writing and working on the things that truly light you up. That I love to see, and I love it when you come to me with an idea that you're trying to figure out, and we just talk about it and brainstorm. And then I see you, you know, in the muck with an idea, like, oh, where is this going? What is this even for? And and then you come through it and you're clear, and then you share it with people through your written word or through a project uh or through just your interactions with people, and I see the response to that as one that's really wonderful. That I I just it's a funny word, but I feel really proud of you when that happens and you're doing that. And so, yeah, there's just a level of backing you up that I really enjoy. And that happens with this when we sit down and do these podcasts, and um, you know, you're the one doing the work with the tech side of this, and um also yeah, organizing a lot of the people we we speak with, and you just do that really well, and yeah, I feel like that's sort of supporting feeling, like we're not in competition. Thank you, you know, because you look at there's potentially other ways that could go.
SPEAKER_02:Totally.
SPEAKER_00:Where it's like, wow, look at you, you got like you got so many great things happening, you've got all these projects going on, and maybe some people could be envious of their partner in that instance, but it's just never even come into the equation for us.
SPEAKER_02:It's that's what I knew at the start I wanted to see what was possible with an egalitarian partnership, really sharing, especially in parenthood. Like, what does that look like and feel like if we both take equal responsibility? It doesn't mean we do the same jobs, it just means we really show up for each other. And sometimes that means leading, and sometimes that means following and accepting the yin-yang-ness of that has been a great and continual learning. But it can feel as good to lead as it does to follow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:This is a question from another listener. How do you think about extending the lifestyle and teaching of surfing to our family, to Minno? Like what's in what's important in that generational passing on?
SPEAKER_00:And passing forward and backwards and every other direction. Because look at my mum, she's in her 70s now and is a surf rat, a newly formed surf rat. And the joy that brings. Yeah. And the inspiration that brings.
SPEAKER_02:All of it.
SPEAKER_00:And then with Minnow, you know, you go the other way and it's just water play. And that's a huge thing for us. It's just water play. It's not surfboard-centric, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's whatever's fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's whatever's fun.
SPEAKER_02:No pressure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And not a lot not a lot of correcting, not a lot of feedback. I see that in both of us. Like and I I stop myself often like, oh, maybe paddle for the or maybe sit here. You know, those are the words that are going on in my head. And actually, what what's important is not has nothing to do with catching waves or not catching waves or what you're writing. It's about developing a relationship with the water, being able to learn the language and also being able to trust yourself. I've been thinking about how great surfing is at teaching us to trust our instincts, our intuition, and our um relationship with, you know, forces so much larger than ourselves. When to catch a wave, when not to catch a wave, um, learning about when to go under so you don't get smacked in the face by the lip, all of those things. Like you have you develop an internal dialogue that you learn to to trust. And I think that translates to other parts of life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, it's great. It's such a um dance with that one where it's about assessing the true danger of a situation too, with like your your son or your mum, like either direction in the age groups, but knowing that it if they endure a set on the head, then they probably picked up a couple lessons in it about how it feels to be in an impact zone and what to do, when to just let go of your board, when to hang on to it, when to turn and ride it back to short, those sort of things. But they will not learn anything if we grab them and pull them to the channel.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And they'll be safe, but he wouldn't have learnt a thing in that. So, within that though, is the assessment of like, oh, that's a pretty dangerous section. Oh, there's multiple people who'll probably ditch their boards. I'm grabbing him, and we're out of it. It's a timing. Or mum, yeah, get the hell out of there, Nanavon. Yeah. And you get, you know, you avoid that risk. And it's like always changing. But that is a really great one to navigate. I love that because it's like, oh, you get the protective parental urge kicking in, but then you go, well, hang on a second. Is there actually any immediate danger?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:There's a challenge, and if I take him out of this situation, he will not get the opportunity to rise to that challenge or just learn, yeah, or be schooled and still learn. So I love that. I think that's so great, and it's a lot of playfulness in that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Allowing kids to develop an awareness of their own capability.
SPEAKER_00:And then when things happen, the big one for us, and I I find that we've been really lucky with Minno having a natural tendency not to add a story to things, is that not adding a scenario to something before it happens. So before we go in the water and not saying, okay, now you've got to be really careful because there's this thing over here, and then if that happens, they'll hit you there, and then you'll get washed up here. Not building up a big scenario, and then the other side of an event is not building up a big story when a stack or something has happened, and then that child or that person doesn't want to go back to the ocean because they're freaked out about what happened. And so I I really enjoy that experience of bringing family members into a surfing life because you really can see, like, you know, your friends who, you know, are perhaps in their 30s, 40s women who sort of let go of surfing. You know, what's the story there? There's some story that's being told in their minds about that, or maybe they just grow out of it and they go in a different direction. But I I really love that experience as a parent and being with other people's kids and seeing how we can help them navigate this big new world of the ocean in a way that isn't troubling or traumatic, but is also getting the best out of them and seeing them lit up by the experience.
SPEAKER_02:Speaking of which, what's been lighting you up lately?
SPEAKER_00:Surfing. So I've just come out of a sailing, busy social period in time, lots of things happening, also kind of a period of physical challenge with illness and different things through this year. It's been a strange year.
SPEAKER_02:Before this episode, we released one called The Rivers Run, and there's a bit more about the story of that deep physical challenge that you set up for our community, and then the episode after the one you're listening to now will be a deep dive into the boat trip that you initiated.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So all those things are ocean-centric, but in different ways. The paddle from Balloner to Bruns, for me, it was a paddle because I can't run. And so I just paddled and swam. You know, and then sailing is deep water sailing. You can feel it like surfing, but it's different. And then now, yeah, is I I'm just so pump. I said this to you the other day when we went surfing together for the first time in a while. We hadn't had a surf like that in a while.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But I was just sharing with you how great it felt for me to notice a change in the wind and say, Yes, I will meet you there to that southeast wind. Saying, Come, let's meet down down the road here at this little corner. And I can say to the wind, sure, let's go. And then you could too that day, and we did that together. That to me is health, that is wealth, and that is very, very fortunate life.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I had the great privilege of getting to see Upper Winfrey speak in person not long ago, just a few weeks ago.
SPEAKER_00:That lit you up.
SPEAKER_02:It did light me up, that's for sure. She is one of my childhood inspirations because of the way she brought great conversation and great questions into my home and into my life as a kid. Um, not to mention her incredible story of overcoming adversity, but that's another time, a different story. Um, she spoke about greatness and how you can be kind of good or make a living doing anything you can get by. But to be truly great, you need love. And I so, when she was talking about that, I so thought of you and your surfing life and your surfing career because you have had incredible longevity with it, but also because I see how much you protect it and how much love you have shielding outside influence or meddling. Like there's a large part of your surfing life that is deeply personal. You go away from people, you rarely surf in front of cameras. You really make sure your relationship is strong and connected with the ocean, with your surfing life. And I I just wanted to honor that.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:How do you see your life, our lives looking in five, 10, 15 years from now? And maybe more specifically, what areas of growth will you pursue? I feel like that's the interesting part of that question.
SPEAKER_00:That was a question from a from a listener.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. What areas of growth will you pursue?
SPEAKER_00:Well, five years we'll have a 13-year-old, and I would like to imagine his capabilities in the world are all healthy and strong. And that's interpersonal relationships, but also with the rest of the living world. So I'd love for him to be a strong, capable young man around the ocean, on the land, and with the people. And for us still able to laugh and be as we are now in, I'm sure, new and interesting ways. And then the same again and the same again. I just don't really think of projecting that far into the future quite often. I don't think so. Do you? Do you think I do?
SPEAKER_02:No, I don't think you do, but I th I think you have maybe they bubble up organically, but you have big dreams. And maybe they can't come up and you service them pretty immediately, like the boat.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like the garden.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, returning to those themes of your early life and influences and building something big and exciting as an outlet to dive into them. I'm not sure what the next one will be for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, me either. Oh, great. What about you?
SPEAKER_02:Um I've been really leaning into creative life. I feel like I feel older all of a sudden, 40. Not that that feels old or sounds old to me, but I feel like I've aged a lot in the last couple of years. And with that has come this real willingness to be with creative process and creative practice and like working with mixed media and putting gifts together for friends and family, and specifically getting into watercolors and watching the way water and pigment move together. That's been really lighting me up lately. And I can see over the next 10, you know, five, 10, 15 years moving into that more, maybe getting in touch with my inner ceramicist again, making spaces for that to happen really easily. And I guess, like you said, toward the start of this conversation, from breaking the death habit, making sure those creative practices are a part of everyday life. And so the spaces are set up and ready to roll as soon as you have the time or the space to jump into them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Great.
SPEAKER_02:We always at the end of a year, we usually sit down and have a big time for reflection. How was 2025 for you?
SPEAKER_00:Oh well, this year, in terms of the calendar year, has been uh quite challenging in a lot of ways with physical stuff. You getting Ross River, me getting staffed.
SPEAKER_02:Um we got hit by the crazy influenza bee.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the Minnow broke his arm again, another broken thing. Um so there's a few physical things there, family members getting quite sick and overcoming, thankfully. But yeah, a bit of a bit of a full year when it came to physical health.
SPEAKER_02:I think I was I think I was sick for three months out of this year. Like really sick.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But then, you know, other moments like then we got to sail with close friends up to the barrier reef and follow through on great oceanic adventures. You got to go on your all-friends surf trip and and just surf as much as you physically could, and that was so great to see. Uh, and then Minnow really coming into his own as a young boy, lots of really wonderful things too, though, in some ways, pretty happy to look at 2026 around the corner and start a different cycle of some sort and wondering where we'll go next year with sort of some guiding thoughts. You know, we often have a moment to look back and then look forward. And I loved your moment at the start of this year where you said uh that your guiding line was to take good care of this. And as I was cleaning solar panels and mulching gardens and, you know, really looking after systems and ecology around our home space yesterday, I was thinking that and I was thought, wow, you did good with that. I thought you did quite good.
SPEAKER_02:I forgot about that. Did you? Yeah, I totally forgot. It's so funny. It's so funny when you set a when you set an intention or you have some sort of guiding principle or area of growth that you want to pursue, the opportunity to pursue it arises. So I just think about you know, take good care of this. I thought meant one thing, but for me it actually ended up coming back to taking care of myself.
SPEAKER_00:Your body keeping your body.
SPEAKER_02:I had lots of opportunity to work out, okay, what does that mean?
SPEAKER_00:So this year's one will be surfing a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and then that'll happen all year. Great.
SPEAKER_02:How should we end?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Do you have a bow? Do you have a line or an intention for the year ahead?
SPEAKER_00:Surfing a lot. No, I don't. It's cool to sit down and do this, and this reminds me of the the kind of the feeling when yeah, you just have a friend that just maybe wants to have a chat and just check in on you and see how you're going and how nice that feels. And you know, we've had the good fortune to have a list of prompts there from people who tune into this podcast, which is amazing. I still I'm so grateful that we're doing this because so often when I'm having a surf somewhere where there are people around, I'll have an interaction with someone who says, like Banana Man at the farmer's market this morning, who goes, Mate, I love the Sterling Spencer episode. I got so much out of that. And then he started getting teary talking about what he felt when he listened to that, which I thought was just going to be quite a comedic conversation, but it was actually for him really moving. There was a part of it that really got to him.
SPEAKER_02:Love your banana man.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we love Craig, and so that is really great. I love that that's still happening and happening more and more. Actually, this year's been amazing for that. There's been so many wonderful supportive moments where people have said thanks for doing this. So I would like for that to continue next year with that knowing, going, hang on a second, yeah. This sort of creative process, making something like this, yeah, it's great. You get to see crazy-looking numbers of people who listen to something like this. You get a bit of support from a sponsor here and there, those are good things. But really, for me, it's that that kind of conversation like this morning, where you look at someone and they tell you, thank you. When I listened to that conversation from that person you had on there, you helped me with something I really was struggling with, or you helped me see things in a new way, or whatever it was useful and and valued by them. That's just so great. It's really, really great.
SPEAKER_02:And isn't that what great stories do?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Time is precious. Thanks for spending some of yours listening with us today. Our editor this season is the multi-talented Ben Jake Alexander. The soundtrack was composed by Shannon Soul Carroll, with additional tunes by Dave and Ben. We'll be continuing today's conversation on Instagram, where we're at Water People Podcast. And you can subscribe to our very infrequent newsletter to get book recommendations, questions for pondering, behind the scenes glimpses into recording the podcast, and more via our website, waterpeoplepodcast.com.
