Ziggy Alberts: Wildly Underprepared

What does it take for you to slow down?

Ziggy Alberts started playing live at 17, admittedly underprepared, but fizzing. By 21, he was staring at a studio ceiling noticing the lights had gone dim, but no one had touched the switch. It led him to break down to a friend. After years of “hell-for-leather” world-touring, he'd finally stayed still long enough to feel what he'd been outrunning.

Ziggy is a songwriter, surfer, and founder of Common Folk Records, the independent label he built with his family and has run for nearly nine years. He grew up homeschooled on the Sunshine Coast, home-birthed and beach-shacked, surfing ratting before music making. 

In 2025, Ziggy, now in his 30s, toured 165 days and played The Royal Albert Hall to a packed house of fans who crossed Europe to be there.  

This year? Only 3 or 4 shows. In this episode, he explains why.

Our conversation moves through burnout and self-belief, busking the streets of Byron, the physiological crash that follows a long tour, what it takes for men to talk to each other, and the art of dissolving — in music and in surfing, both.

…

Ziggy’s song ‘Runaway’ is featured in this episode. 

…

Notable links + recommendations from this episode: 

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn

Michael Hutchence / INXS documentary

New Jack Johnson film

Steph Strings, Aussie musician

Spotify daily upload rate — conversations cites 60,000 songs per day, that stat seems to be older, probably more like 100,000+ in 2026. 

...

Co-Hosts + Production: Lauren L. Hill & Dave Rastovich

Sound + Video Engineer: Ben J Alexander

Theme song: Shannon Sol Carroll

Additional music by Kai Mcgilvray   + Ben J Alexander

Join the conversation: @Waterpeoplepodcast 

...

Thanks to our generous sponsors this season:

Patagonia Australia: in business to save our home planet

Ngalung Kalla Eco Retreat: surf adventure paradise 

The Sunglass Fix: give your favourite sunglasses new life

Sodii: hydration for salty humans

...

Subscribe to our newsletter for BTS stories from making the podcast, and the books, films and music we’re currently into. Written by us + free to read. 

You can stream every Waterpeople episode from y...

Transcript

The Crash That Got His Attention

SPEAKER_05 0:00

I had like a particularly odd, terrifying hospitalization, 100 shows in, five to go. So much going on personally and in relationships, and end up in an ambulance. My body had just given out. It was just like, dude, not gonna listen, I'm just gonna scream.

Water People Season Eight Opens

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Welcome to Water People, where we talk story about the aquatic experiences that shape who we become back on land. I'm your host, Lauren Hill, joined by my partner Dave Rastovich. Join us as we gather stories, insights, and useful skills from some of the most outstanding water folk on the planet. We acknowledge the Bungelung Nation, the traditional custodians of the land and waters where we work and play, who have cared for this sea country for tens of thousands of years. Respect and gratitude to all First Nations people, including elders past, present, and emerging. This season is supported by Patagonia, whose purpose-driven mission is to use business to save our home planet. Today we're in conversation with musician and waterman Ziggy Alberts. Ziggy is a songwriter, surfer, and founder of Common Folk Records, the independent label he built with his family and has run for going on a decade. He grew up homeschooled on Queensland's Sunshine Coast, homebirthed and beach shacked, a classic Aussie surf rat upbringing. Ziggy toured 165 days in 2025 and filled the Royal Albert Hall with fans who crossed Europe to be there. This year, he's played only three or four shows. Our conversation moves through burnout and self-belief, busking the streets of Byron, the physiological crash that follows a long tour, what it takes for men to talk to each other, and the art of dissolving in music and surfing both.

A Quiet Surf Before The Mics

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Here we are, beginning season eight of Water People, our eighth year digging into this wonderful experiment at listening and asking questions of people that we're really interested in. And we wanted to start the season with someone we've had encounters with over the years and also have admired from afar, and that's Ziggy Alberts.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yeah, great opportunity to spend some time, especially you someone who's in that realm of playing so much music and so many shows around the world, and that very uh fast-paced life of being a musician in demand. That's certainly true for Ziggy, and his success is so great to see. His heartfelt joy with the whole experience is such a great thing to be around and to witness, and then also to get moments to hang out and go surfing and spend time in the water, which we did before getting to sit down and have this chat, which is like to me, that's one of the funnest ways to get to lead into a conversation with water people chats, like with Tommy Carroll that time. Remember when we went down the back beach behind home?

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Yeah, we had that buddy surfing day.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

That was just like a it's just so great. So just before we got to sit down and you know, turn the mics on, Ziggy and I slipped down to a quiet corner of the beach behind where we live and share some waves that were actually really beautiful. It's like four foot plus lefts and rights, and we were splitting a peak often. He would go left, I would go right, he'd go right, I go left. And one of those surfs where you meet back out at the peak after riding separate directions, and we were so itching to start a conversation. And in one instance, we started three times, and we'd come back out, and he would say, Okay, take two. Tell me more about that Michael Hutchins documentary that made you cry. And I'd be like, Well, it all started, and then I'd try and start, and then a peak would come, and we'd be like, Oh, can't talk, must surf, and we'd turn around and catch the wave and then do that over and over. So it was that kind of surf where there was no one else in sight, and here we are. He's a person who gets in front of thousands of people and recording sessions and cameras and media and all that. I'm someone that dips in and out of that world with cameras and documentation and sort of being looked at in that way. And I really, really cherish quiet personal surfing moments. Actually, just ocean moments, doesn't have to be surfboard writing at all, just very personal moments like that. And I really love to share that with one or two friends where you can be silent and just be marvelling at the light or looking at the dolphins surfing or sticking your head underwater listening to the first whales of the season, which was yesterday. And so we got to share that kind of morning, and it was just great to reconnect as we've crossed paths for over a decade now, but always in those fleeting moments where it's between tours for him, or I'm doing something out in the world, and we'll share a night at an event or something for Sea Shepherd or whatever. So, yeah, wonderful time to spend together.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

I remember encountering Ziggy in the car park of the past or Watergoes. He is a really lovely longboarder, in addition to all of his shredding on guitar and on littler boards and on foils. So I always really appreciated that he was kind of spectral in his watery life. But I really wanted to chat with Ziggy for this conversation around what it means to be a creative person who makes their livelihood out of their creativity. I feel like I, as I've turned 40, I've really stepped into the busiest season of my life that I've experienced so far. And I realized at the start of this year that as I'm giving more of my time away to other projects and still to family, I need to really set boundaries around my creativity if I want to have a regular and sustained practice that I feel like really fills me up, whether that's like painting or writing or other creative outlets. So I really wanted to chat with Ziggy around how he does it, how he tours and makes books and writes songs and has this very big life, but still manages to protect time to keep making the things that got him into the, you know, incredibly successful place that he's in now.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Indeed. And it's so interesting for us to spend time with people like Ziggy who are kind of like spectacular people, you know, and it's almost like that it within that word is the word spectacle. And you look at them, you know, people who are unbelievable musicians and performers. This they're like they're spectacular humans. Often we're just like, whoa, how is this person? But what's really interesting within that, I feel, is how it feels to be that person, and how those people can report back to the rest of us who don't go to those far edges of the human experience, like playing in front of thousands of people all the time and stuff, and just hear what it's like and learn, you know, oh, what what happens when you go that hard and you just give yourself completely over to it, and that all of a sudden becomes hundreds of shows and tens of thousands of people and all of that stuff. And so I really like the that opportunity with Ziggy in particular to just hear from him what it's like from the inside, and exactly like you're saying, like how to keep those things that are so precious and mean so much to him, those all of those things you just rattled off, the those creative expressions and ways to cope with the world and gift things to the world. And he's got a lot to say about that, which is so cool, and all with a smile and curiosity and enthusiasm. It's just great. Such a fired up human, it's really contagious and fun and a real treat. Just a real treat.

Early Encounters And Activism Gigs

SPEAKER_02 8:02

It was a drum shop along the Gold Coast Highway near Broad Beach. I know exactly. I don't know if it was actually called Three Worlds, but there was another store like it on the Gold Coast, which was an eclectic musical instrument store, and they used to have events and stuff and things there. But that was actually the first time I came across you, Ziggs, where you were playing your music and it was an ocean-themed evening around rallying different people on the Goldie around probably the Sharknet issue at that time, but also it was Sea Shepherd days where a lot of people in Australia were galvanized and rallying around Sea Shepherds campaigns in Antarctica and stuff, and we're all pretty fired up. And um, I think at that stage you were you must have been really young. So I reckon you would have been really young because I was probably 30, 32.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

That was a long time ago. That was a very long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

But that was when I first saw you, and I was saying I'm mentioning this to Lauren um the other day because I remember you being there, fizzing with energy, the other people who were there, a lot of young ladies actually, which is often the case in the volunteer world. It's mostly women who were turning up. But you weren't, you were a young fella there, a surf rat, obviously talented with music, and also seemed to give a shit beyond those things. And I was mentioning this to La where it felt really wonderful for me to feel a sense of sort of hope and like support or an insight into uh the next generation younger than me coming into the surfing organism, music, art, all of these things here on the east coast of Australia. And you were there, and it was like this little crew that felt like they were filling a space where at that time I actually was very burnt out. I'd been doing that work endlessly actually with Howie for a few years, and I was very tired. I was just super tired, and I needed to pull back and just be quiet for a while, and I felt like I could do that because I saw you and I saw the crew around you, and it was just really wonderful. And I was just, yeah, I just thought it'd be interesting to reflect back to that and see if you at all remember that because I do, and it was a really good feeling.

SPEAKER_05 10:22

I remember not the three worlds drums, but I remember that joint because I'd play there on the regular. I can I could again paint it to you, like we said before. The Brazilian guy who ran his name is Vlad, and I still have a book that I never returned that I should have from that cafe because it was a cafe, it was like a cafe space. Exactly, and it was a book about Australia, like early photography Australia. So sorry, Vlad, when you hear this, the book never got returned, it's still at home. But that was such a I must have only been 17 or 18 when I first started doing stuff with C Shepherd, like as early as I played music, which is a bit akin to what we talked about post-surf, just that the way that I guess I moved forward was I was always wildly underprepared, but like just frothing at the bit. You know, it was that's that's how I got to stage. Or I guess the environmental movement at the time I think was pretty galvanized and super interesting to hear someone else say, you said you're like 30 at the time to say, like to be transparent about being burnt out on it. And that's like feels really appropriate at that time in your life. Whether you're right or wrong, or whether your perspective grows on the issues that you're challenging, but it's like the perfect time because you're like fizzing with energy to like to give a fuck and do it. Yeah, wow. Such a magic time, I think, to like Brunswick as well, to like the hotel bruns and doing Sea Shepherd gigs with um like Bobby Arloo. Yeah, magic time in life for sure. And a long time, like a long time ago now. It feels maybe like I'm 31 now, so it has to be that was like 2000 and 2011 or 2012. I started playing almost as soon as I could learn to play, I started playing live, which is like a terrible idea, but like it got it, like it I had to learn quickly, and that's how I learned quickly was on the spot.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

I find that interesting also given recently we were sharing film projects that we'd been working on, and the idea of a a live sort of test screening with people, we we used, and we were still pretty much in the editing room. And what was cool was filling the room with you know, thinking, feeling, breathing bodies was that you could really tell the the moments that worked and the moments that didn't. Yes. And then by asking everyone, come and tell me afterwards what you think, and we'll incorporate your feedback. Like, seriously, tell tell us. And people came in and were so kind, but also like clear hey, that thing there with the voiceover really lost me, or oh, I loved that bit there, and this was funny and that wasn't, and it was such a fast track to making a better thing in the end. You would have felt that too, I'm sure, a million times over the things that worked and why people would stop and not just walk by, or when people would even give you some cash or something.

SPEAKER_05 13:05

I was too like late in the piece. I was in this awesome time where I was just on tail end of CDs, which is like amazing. Printing CDs into it was like into paper, like into like uh almost like sandwich bags at the time, and I had like a little stamp with my name on it. Such a valuable time to just deal with what you have. It's like the situation isn't perfect. Sometimes some someone who's got mental issues is like maybe trying to like physically get involved with you, you know, like you're facing so many things, you know. There's it's quiet, people don't stop because they also don't have to. Yeah. So someone said to me, many like um out in the surf and broken, someone raised with me like how it was such a great thing because there you are offering, and it's not an immediate exchange, it's not, hey, you bought a ticket, so I'll perform. It's like you're there and you're performing, and no one has to stop, but people often do, and that was like such a cool perspective, which is the incredible thing about feedback from people, particularly in like when you're making something like a movie, or when I was working on early albums, like you just got the feedback you needed to to know. And what I don't know, but you both might have some experience with is that I feel like back in the days with recording, sometimes artists would actually have audiences, right? When they were doing their albums or doing recordings, like they would have like a like people sitting not in the room necessarily, but sitting in like a viewing or around like the mixing room because there is something that changes, even when I'm rehearsing, sometimes I either will like I've been going live on TikTok, which makes me feel very young and relevant, um or having like friends pop in or nieces or nephews pop in and just watch it, just kind of like makes you stand up straight and go. And it's not there's like a space where that might seem like disingenuous, but for me it always is like in that moment when there's eyes on you busking, or when I'm rehearsing like that, or playing the show. Either you gotta like put on a mask or take off one, I think is how I feel. Either you gotta put on your coat and like you've got your character, or it's just like strips everything away, and that's what I think music has like been for me. Those live moments is like it's a real just strips away and there you are.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Well, it becomes a relationship, doesn't it? It becomes an energy exchange instead of just pouring out you get if there's someone else in the room, at least you have some sense of relationality in the performance. It yeah, it changes everything.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Awesome. Well, you can tell by the general froth levels of how much we just want to launch into the case. I know we're going way too far. I can feel Lauren's desire for uh the structure of how we usually do this kicking in right now, which I fully back and agree with. So, Lauren, do you want to take us to where we usually start this sort of conversation, which you are aware of, Ziggy? Yeah, do you want to start us there?

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Ziggy, you may or may not know, but we always begin in the same place, and that's by asking about a time or experience after which you were never the

Burnout At 21 And Speaking Up

SPEAKER_03 16:02

same. Would you be willing to share a moment like that with us today?

SPEAKER_05 16:07

Wow, not one that I usually share, but definitely something that comes to mind. Was probably the m the most burnt out I'd felt at about 21, 22 years old. And remember the the lights in the studio being like noticeably dimmer. But I was aware that it wasn't that someone turned down the lights, that was just how I was feeling at the time really affecting how I was interacting with the world. And that was the same day that I, you know, graciously got to talk to one of my dearest friends in the world, Sam, and I just broke down and told him how I was feeling, and that was such a release moment, I think, to be able to do that. But that that I had never thought that as a like with such an incredible upbringing and such a life that I have had and that I have now that I would ever experience a feeling like that. But that moment definitely comes to mind.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

Can you put words to those feelings for us? What did you share?

SPEAKER_05 17:03

Oh, I just had to talk, and I think I've just been so lucky in all the ways. I've been lucky in the way of chance, and I've been lucky to cultivate like friendships with guys like Sam who you know are such kind, thoughtful young men that you can talk, we can talk about our feelings together and our struggles, not just the gosh, I don't know how to put into words. It was just like that dimness was was was was visual. It gone beyond like a feeling.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

What was the landscape of your life like leading up to that moment that led to really beautiful, just tiring.

SPEAKER_05 17:42

Yeah. Just like just kind of probably not listening to like not listening to the screaming signals of your life where it was just chaos. It's just like hard tour, early days of touring, not a great structure, too small a team for too big a task, and just injuries and things go wrong with the injuries on recovery. But being victim to your inability to stop and listen, I think that was the landscape, and that was like the first time that I really stepped back from music at that time and took like some time away from touring was the first time since around when we would have first met in that you know, 17 to 22, like I just was held for leather in that time. So there that's the moment that comes to mind for me. Amongst many, I could think of so many incredible, incredible moments, but in light of some conversations this morning, like that's that was like a great turning point. Um, it's the way that I discovered meditation by accident as as a as an outcome of not knowing what else or how to deal with how I was feeling inside and like the joys that that's brought to my life since and the way my life has played up since then has been wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

So could you explain like who you were before that moment and who you were after it in a way where like if you were to be writing a kid's book, you're describing yourself in a simple way before and after that time?

SPEAKER_05 19:02

Yeah, probably just probably more naive. I think maybe like before that, it's there's these moments in life when you're young that you which is like it's good, like you're you're naive to the pain or suffering that like you might go through, or like the suffering that you can cause, like not not intentionally, but the things like how your actions impact others, and there's just this kind of been reflecting a lot even lately on this. There's this whole like I just roll out of everything unscathed. There's like the times in your life where you kind of just roll out of the car crash, the metaphorical car crash, and you dust off, and you're like, okay, on to the next. So you know, you get washed over the rocks and you're just kind of like, oh, that was close. Um, and I think afterwards realizing um that you're like, you know, you're kind of like you're a cat with nine lives, and you you know, you've knocked a couple off the board, and first there's like denial, you're like, what? But I always, I always just roll out of this one, you know, and dust stuff. So that's like I think that's the before and afters. You kind of have this like beautiful, which you need. You need this like kind of hellful leather. I think a lot of changes made, I think, even up until 2000 and I think maybe 19, that 2018-19 period was the fight for the bike campaign. And there's just like this, you almost need like a a bull-headed, like a bullheadedness to like attempt to, I mean, that story itself for like the community of people that somehow managed to come together to push back against a major oil company from Norway. Like, that's like the idea of like a bunch of surfers would do that, or you know, think about Heath coming all the way to Norway. And I happened to be there at the time playing shows and we linked up and like this thing about all the people around the world, it's like such a ridiculous story. But in like the David vs. Goliath life that we're living, it's like almost important to be like borderline delusional. But then sometimes you have to, you know, you like don't just walk away from all the decisions you've made, and sometimes you come out like with a couple extra scars and just I think gotta stop and learn. Um after those moments, I really which has been incredible, like that shaped so many moments of my life in 2017-18 where you know I just started a record label and I maybe wouldn't have been as tied to my values because I had a very real sense of okay, nothing matters. You can have all the things and everything can kind of look good on the outside, but if you don't keep cultivating like your own peace, if you don't take care of yourself, like you'll end up back here. So like it was really important to to go through that at such a young age, I think. It's like shaped all it shaped all of my my twenties into my 30s now. Yeah, that's super fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Do you have one of those moments, Lauren?

SPEAKER_02 21:42

I'm just thinking about like you know, that's an age, that's a period, it's one of those seven year cycle moments, you know, 14, 21, 28, the Satin Return, 35, you know, 42. There's all these key moments. When you were 21, did you have one of those moments?

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Oh, I've got a few. I think we all have a few. I think we have too. And for m like the emotion that bubbles up in me and hearing your story, Ziggy, is a like about being humbled by life. Like going, Oh, I've had a pretty good run, like I've been making the connectors all the way to the beach, but sometimes you eat shit and you head butt a rock. And and for me, one of those moments was after uni. It's not a big thing, but it's but it was definitely a turning point. After uni, um I just put in four years studying really hard, studying environmental science. Um, and I had this amazing professor who encouraged me to use my academic, new academic skills to study surfing. So I did this thesis, whatever. And then I graduated and the global financial crisis happened. And there were just like no jobs. So I had to move home. Had to move home. And I just like I had huge student loans. So I had to work out, and in the States, those loans start accruing, compounding interest within a year. So I was like, fuck those loan companies. Oh my god. I'm gonna pay these things off before they get one extra cent of my money. So I just like gamified many part-time jobs. And in that time, I was like, whoa, I had this incredible gift of not a lot of time, but not a lot of work that was very demanding of me in a deep way. And so I had this extra time to spend in the water and I got to surf so much because I could make my own hours with these other part-time jobs. And I was like, oh, what I really want is not to go and work for an environmental NGO in Washington, DC, which is what I thought I was gonna do. Instead, I was like, oh my God, I just want to be in the water. I want to be a surf rat again. And so I did that and I started like playing with writing and making little films, and it was because of not because of that, but then Dave and I re-encountered each other and it just sort of like dominoed into the life that I have now because of a complete humbleness that life gave me of having realizing I have no control and that I actually just need to stop and listen to myself. That's great. And then yeah, reassessed.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

That's great.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

And you?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

No, no, no. There's many many questions on your piece of paper there.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Okay. We'll get back

Homeschooling And Learning To Be Yourself

SPEAKER_03 24:22

to that. Ziggy, I'd love to trace back to your origins. You were homeschooled on the Sunshine Coast until you were 13. You went to public school, graduated when you were 16. Is that right? Like Dave?

SPEAKER_05 24:34

Hey, high class. Oh, very good. Early achievers. Yes. Out of there. Loud inside voices.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

You you said that homeschool really allowed your life, but also your education, to be really grounded in spending time together as a family. I've been thinking a lot about this as our boy goes into school and we don't have those daytime hours to spend together. How that like the institution of school can make it more difficult to know each other as a family. And that would have not been true for you as a young kid in this familial education setting. I'm curious about what else was it that you encountered not being in school that you feel like you wouldn't have had you been in school all along?

SPEAKER_05 25:22

Yeah, so was born stormy July as a also a home birth. Everything was at home.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 25:28

You know, homeschooled, home birth, we did the home thing. Um radical. It was also in the 90s, and so it was like still, it was not yet like hip or slightly trendy as it is now. Um it was still like, what are you doing to your child? So like shout out to them because it was pretty brave in in like in hindsight, in ways I still don't understand without a child. Like it's brave to be, it ain't pretty to say like you're homeschooling, you know, four out of six children. I've got two older brothers who but brothers from other mothers, and there's four of us that are five years apart, um, 93 to 98, and we grew up as this like crazy upbringing as just renting renting beach shacks on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland and climbing trees and surfing and skating and doing martial arts and in between doing school. I think in hindsight, I probably just got to be myself. And I actually think this is really important for maybe it's even more important for young boys, like looking at my nieces and nephews. It's maybe even more important for young boys to be able to express themselves, like let's say from zero to twelve or thirteen, it's like such an impactful time. And the more I look at like girls coming up, like they're like so tough in some ways, like so like ready-made to deal with the world. Whereas like for a guy to be expressive or sensitive or like learn to contend with all my big feelings and emotions, like I'm stoked I had like the upbringing I did, like it probably allowed me to have that, know that, and have the support that when I went to school, which was like a really awesome experience to do both, I kind of had that background. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

I'm really curious about your parents because I feel like a lot of times people who choose homeschool, home birth, they're making choices that relate to the experience or the lack of experience or the lack of met un you know, unmet needs that they'd had in their own lives to choose something very different, most usually in reaction to what they experienced as, you know, in their upbringing. Was that true for your parents?

SPEAKER_05 27:33

You know what's funny? It I don't think so. I feel it was more that they made one decision which was we want to like have a family that spends time together, and they were like, we just want to do everything um as authentically as possible. They I think they even looked at school for and they well, maybe this part's reactionary, like, but looked at school to where like some of our like friends were really little were already going to school and probably were appalled at like what was going on in in that system. Yeah, but I think it was more the domino effect of okay, well, we want to spend time together and grow as a family. How are we gonna do this? Right, I'm gonna work from home. Father was a computer programmer, and you know, and mum was full-time mummy, and so it's just all these like lifestyle choices that I think happened as a result of, you know, there wasn't their priority to like to have their housing portfolio in place, like their priority was to like live near the beach. So, what are you gonna do? Unless you're you know well to do. They're like, right, we'll just rent the beach shacks. And they did that for you know, like two decades or something like that, you know. Yeah, so I it it's funny. Um, I think there's so many more options now. I think you've got so many, there's like uh so many hybrid models. You've obviously got like just down here down south where we are, like there's so many more models for non-traditional systems that do like cultivate learning. I think homeschooling, what's really good about it from someone who's not doing the homeschooling for any kids right now is that you can get a focus of attention and center so many subjects around it. If it's surfing, if it's dinosaurs, if it's snakes, if it's dancing, you can do maths around dancing, you can do storytelling around dancing, you can do history, you can take a genuine focus and run with it. I think it probably broke down barriers. Like you couldn't be rude to like, you can't be rude to teacher and then like because like teachers like mom and dad, and like so you can't like be rude and get away with it, kind of thing. There's lots of like had to be consistent across the board. Definitely not like not for the faint-hearted, that's for sure. I think it's like the older I get, the more I think incredible it is. But super lucky. Went to the biggest public school in Queensland after.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

How was that transition?

SPEAKER_05 29:35

Yeah, I was super, I was so lucky because my sister had just enrolled the like maybe the year or two before. So there was that. I had like long blonde hair at the time and no one knew that like I was a full nerd. So like I just snuck under the radar, you know. Like people thought I was a cool surfer guy, which I absolutely am not, and wasn't then and not now. And so like I kind of just got away with it, you know. Like I kind of just I I don't feel it's fair to paint my experience because to everyone there, I was like blonde surfer guy from across the bridge. So like, you know, by the time year 11 came around and I was doing you know, two maths and two sciences, they're like, wait a second, it was too late. I was already in.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

Um when I when I hear about your family's version of homeschool, of like, you know, I think you've said you did four hours of book learning a day, and then you were doing, you were surfing, you were skating, you were doing martial arts. What I hear in that is a baked in proclivity for discipline. And I'm interested to know how that cultivation of discipline has played out in your life, or do you think about it that way at all?

SPEAKER_05 30:37

That's so cool. I hadn't explicitly thought that, but for sure. I think one of the outcomes is probably like not closer to reality because I don't I think it's however people can come up. Some people would probably really suffer in homeschooling, and homeschooling can be super isolating. Yeah, if you're in a remote community, that that's just the opposite of what we had. You know, we had like kids on our street everywhere, surf comps, skating, martial arts. And I think the discipline and like respect probably because praakers is also based on reality. I think it's a really good pickup. I think the discipline to stick the landing with skating mattered because when you fell, you got hammered. And so, and you did get hammered, and you learned that concrete had impact. So you just like learnt. And I think on the mat at the dojo, I think that discipline was inherent, but what was even maybe cooler was that you're constantly interacting with multiple age groups up and down the board, and that's helpful and that's tricky in our in our schooling model. Maybe one of the challenges is that you have groups of people growing up at the same age, all trying to raise each other. And in fact, it's a bit of a miracle that like all of us come out of schooling systems as well as we do as individuals. Because you know, you're growing up, and now this is only true of traditional systems, but like if you're in a classroom, people the same age, you only know as much as each other, and you're growing up like that's like that's like a funny when you break that down, that's an interesting way for us to evolve.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

It really cultivates competition because you're all trying to occupy the same niche, you're all the same place. It's just it's a strange way to organize.

SPEAKER_05 32:08

How do how do teachers hats up to all the teachers who would be listening? It's like, how do teachers even manage? I can think of a couple who I'm still very fond of, you know, that were very impactful for me in those years. Like, how do they even manage to to do what they the excellent things they do, you know? That's so shout out all the people that even within this challenging system are making, you know, really positive changes.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Thank you. Big, big thanks to them.

Byron Bay Beginnings And Busking Lessons

SPEAKER_03 32:34

I'd love to get into your move to Byron. So you went to this big public high school, you maybe weren't playing music at that point, but then at some point you're gifted a guitar, you hit the road, move to Byron Bay. How does that all unfold?

SPEAKER_05 32:50

So classic. So um seven or sixteen, last day 2011, get a guitar from largely, like largely some bizarre intuitive thing from my father who's highly disciplined and not often led by some like intuition thing. Like he's like very logic and but had a feeling. Um, I was playing maybe like some upside down right-handed guitar at the time because I was super lefty, goofy, all left. And so um playing chords upside down, but got this left-handed guitar and just fell in love with it. I was actually prior to that, always I had this little piece in a I don't know if you know this, but I had this little piece in like a local surf bag at home. I was doing like creative writing pieces. Shout out to Chris Kai. So it was maybe called like the Sunshine Coast Surf bag or something. So I loved writing already, and then listening to a couple of impactful musicians at the time, oddly a hip-hop duo from Inner West Sydney, who were just great storytellers, kind of like rap and jazz. And I was like, okay, you could turn whole stories into like three or four minutes of song. So it was just this melting pop moment. I was like heavily harassing. So thanks to the guys who gave me an intern, I harassed these guys so they couldn't say no to give me an intern at Stab Mag when I was like seven, maybe not even 18, first year out of school. So like went down to Sydney and like stopped in there a couple times, like wrote a couple pieces, but that was like happening then. Got a gig collecting glasses at a live music bar, had just picked up a guitar, still surfing, just this melting pot moment. That was 2011. And again, like it thank thankfully with enough like uh just homeschooled faith in the universe, I just like went out and was like, I'm just gonna, you know, like go and perform and like way underprepared. And I can't believe I even some of the people shouldn't have even paid me. You know, I'm thinking back to one gig in particular to a certain venue where I'm like, I can't believe those poor people had to pay me to play, you know, like it's just a ridiculous notion. Looking back now, um, and just was like learning covers on YouTube was a really great resource. You could just go on and like learn stuff. I'm pretty visual. I don't know how to play music by ear, uh I could play music by ear. I can't read music or I don't know, don't know that sort of stuff. So I could just kind of learn by looking and listening. And far out, it was just like um little did I know, just become like the the ruling obsession of my life.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

So we were we were chatting with a friend recently, and he was talking about moving his family over to the States and doing kind of an adapted homeschool in the States, but with an AI tutor. And so they do what you're talking about, they tailor your learning to whatever you're interested in, but it's through the computer. And so the formal part of learning becomes totally technologized. And that made me think about how much of your career has been bolstered or hindered by having or not having technical knowledge of music, right? Because that's these learning, these like very tailored skill-based learning systems that it seems like we're moving kids toward, like this extreme specialization, us thinking we can set them up for a future that we have no idea what it's gonna be like yet. And also look at you, you've built this career, this incredible, satisfying, meaningful career with without actually technical knowledge, just by playing by feel. I think that's really inspiring and really interesting.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

I have such a theory that like we need a certain amount of players that are like outside of the box. I feel like some I feel what would be challenging. There's so many, I can I think of so many friends and so many musicians who are gosh, like most most of my peers are like technically superior, are like better players, better singers. That is true, but there's just like this beautiful thing where I I've almost never wanted to unpack music beyond it being something kind of magical. Like I don't need to know, I don't want to turn it into numbers, you know. Like I respect it, and for some people that's amazing. But if you know, if you know the rules, how do you break them? Like, once you know that the rules are this and this is where this is the core that's meant to go after, this is the progression of the notes, and this is the core that should be next, then how are you ever going to like do something different? Or and I just think that'd be a lot harder. So I think probably I've always felt really protective, not right or wrong, but just protective to try and keep an out-of-the-box perspective on on all things. It terrifies it actually terrifies me to like upskill myself in that way because there's like a great quote from a famous bassist, and I'm not gonna remember who it is, but shout out to Paul E. It's like 20 percent, you know, 20%'s the chord and 80%'s how you play it. And I think there's this like nameless magic that yeah, I'm not interested in kind of like boiling down to an ingredients list at the minute.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

I have a lot to riff about when you say that. And Lauren knows probably where I'm gonna go with what I'm saying here. But like I I deeply love playing music, and I also have zero intellect around it. I've like zero understanding, but I love and just need to be able to sit down and play the guitar in a sit spot here, looking out into the forest nearly daily, and have no idea what I'm doing, and all of a sudden I'll be playing and something will come out.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Hey Lau, where it's like I just have to say, it's like you make beautiful music, piano, drums, guitar, super personal, really lovely to have a space filled with handmade music.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

But I love that moment when you stumble across something and it's come out of your hands or your voice or whatever. For me, it's not voice because I really don't have that one, but your fingers, and it's like this discovery, this magical moment. So I really can relate to what you're saying in in keeping that beginner's mind freshness with it. And for me, earlier days, when I was in my 20s, I was friends with all the similar circles that you're um mates with on the sunny coast and in the music world who love to surf, and that's Paulie B and Shannon and O.J., all the crew on the sunny coast, and the Jack Johnsons of the world, and Xavier and Grunwald, and all these amazing characters, and everyone has different positions along that scale of knowledge that is very intellectual and cerebral, and others who just feel it. And I think of Shannon and O.J. in that way. Shannon doesn't have that um classical training in the in in the institutions that OJ has. And for Shannon, he dances that line of knowing how to play like an absolute monster on guitar, like beast, but doesn't have that other realm.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

What interests me though is the the choice where some people carry that as an inferiority, and some people choose to carry it as their superpower, and that's what you're choosing here.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah, and it's in different moments too, like in your life where it's like, oh, I'm okay with that. Depending on their shoulders, you're rubbing up, you know, that kind of experience.

Keeping Music Magic Without Rules

SPEAKER_02 40:02

So, how have you dealt with that? Because everything has a wave-like motion, as we were talking about earlier, so you don't just constantly feel confident in that. You would have moments of doubt, and you'd have moments of like, holy shit, I'm playing at the Royal Albert, and this is oh my god, this is where Led Zeppelin and whoever else, you know, like the beasts of the musical world, and there you are feeling your way through it. When those moments happen, can you paint the picture for us when that happens and how you stay buoyant and don't sink down in those moments?

SPEAKER_05 40:34

Yeah, that's so that's such a good question. The Royal Albert gig was in particular, it's this particular venue in London, and I think I was safeguarded by the fact I didn't realise quite how it wasn't until I was backstage looking at everyone who'd played there, I was like, Holy shit. I knew it was a thing, but it's the most classic homeschooled moment ever. Like I knew it was a thing, but I didn't know it was a thing. Yeah, um, and so luckily that night I was really oh man, I like I succeeded that night because my my biggest dream that night was just to be there, was like to be there, and I was l very lucky. I walked out onto stage, and I'm walking on stage, and all these people from familiar shows from Europe, like all these fans from different places around Europe, had turned up. And so the front row, I was like, Oh, really? All of you, yeah, yeah, exactly. Look at all of us chickens. So that I didn't have control over, but that was like this thing that was kind of like oh, like you you know, big scary monsters, like I know you people, you know, like people I legit, you know, like have people that now have become friends or come backstage every time, and I it's yeah, like so. I was really lucky in that evening through practice and intention, I got there to where I was I was there, and I just really enjoyed the evening. But ironically, I'm seeing another venue in London on a on a tour a couple years ago. I forget the venue, it's called Hammersmith. Again, it's like one of those, one of the top venues you play there. And I'd played to like 200 people the night before in some random English city, and then played this show, and you know, and this big show is supposed to be the best show. And I remember playing that show and just not feeling it, not feeling connected to the crowd, not feeling connected to myself. And how do you deal with the insecurity? Oh gosh. I think I've felt it, I have definitely felt it more now, being longer into my career. Like I think there's an easy time when you're like the fuzzy new toy. Had that moment in the sense of I had this kind of underground busking career, which is like one of my favourite parts about my whole life, like this hilarious, dream like, ridiculous notion. And then had the moment I first got radio play, and it became you know, in at least in Australia, like people outside of the usual little niche circle of granola bars and birthing centres and yoga, and you know, like I got outside that. Um, and I definitely appreciate more now, I think, to I think the people that I look up to who I graciously like have like relationships with now. Like, you definitely like I'm 14, 14, 15 years into this now and almost half my life, and definitely had questions. I've like taken time off touring now. I definitely felt insecurity around like, is it my time? Like, do I need to like step away and go through my like you know, like mysterious like I don't drink, but you know, mysterious drinking wine and disappear into like you know the bush kind of moment. Way too much of a social app for that. But um, but we dream, right? Um so I definitely can I definitely can relate to the insecurity more than ever because despite what you know I've managed to do in my career, it feels like as you get older, maybe you just get a bit more conscious about things, not necessarily wiser, but like I'm definitely more conscious about that feeling. And I definitely have battled in my time off, which has been amazing. I'm off tour for the whole year. For all of this year. I've got like I've played like three play like three or four gigs in the whole year, which is like Last 2025 was 106 gigs, 165 days. Insane. And have felt immense insecurity. And I don't know, you just have to just keep trying to come back to why ultimately, like what you can control and what matters. And like, I just got I have been lucky to stumble upon through practicing mindfulness, but also just I've been offered it. Some people just don't get offered the moments. Like it takes it takes other human beings to come forward and be like, hey, you know, my son died, and the last song that we played when we turned off his life support machine was your song. And like in that moment, you know something matters, or someone's like, hey, this is like the most classic story that I get. Like the most common top three things I get when I meet people is like, my dog's name Ziggy, or where's this about to go? Or you were in my birthing playlist. That's like it's it's one of those three things, you know. Like, like, and the birthing place is probably the most common. So like though that that can help you push back against insecurity because it's real. Yeah, it's like that's real. Totally. You're like, oh, that really that's a that is like such a ridiculous privilege. Right on. That's that's the long way to say I don't know. I don't know how to contend with insecurity, but um that that's what comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

I hear you loud and clear, and I hear you in the space where you get out of the ceaselessness of producing things in the world of media, and you just step off for a moment, and you have time to kick back and you disappear from that world for a while. There is so much

Insecurity After Big Shows

SPEAKER_02 45:34

opportunity for doubt when and I feel this in the surfing world, this is something I've seen with lots of crew younger than me who came into like the free surfing model in terms of just making surf films and being a part of surf dockos and stuff. I noticed like the Craig Andos and that sort of generation, they had this and perhaps still do this really gnarly work ethic. And and I was just tripped out by it because I'm like, whoa, hang on a second, we're just like ding-dong surf rats here. Like, if anyone is going to live outside of the clock and is going to dip in and out of the clock scheduled world, it should be us, these people who are dictated by tide, weather, and swell and these fluctuating, you know, natural environmental changes. Um, but there was this sort of this thing I was seeing where they didn't feel like they could stop. If they stopped producing stuff, that is, which is essentially touring, yes, they would disappear in the eyes of the world and their momentum that they were building would just dissolve and they'd kind of have to start from scratch again or something. There was this endlessness to it, but I really worried about those younger guys. I was like, holy shit, man, like you're not you're not in the context, you're not in the contest world of surfing, which is relentless. There's a schedule, like they know what they're doing every week of the year. Even though we were outside of that as like free surfers, there was still that type of dominance of your time happening. And anyway, I just remember having some concerns around that for crew because I'd be like, holy shit, you guys are gonna burn out, either get addiction problems because of that burnout, or you'll cook yourselves, you'll go really, really hard, and the flavor of the month thing will happen for a little bit, and then you'll disappear, and you would maybe have lost the way that you cope with life, which is surfing, because of all of that experience. And when we were in the water today, we're talking a bit about this about how there's layers with these sort of art forms, these things we do with our time say it's um surfing and music in this instance, and you know, you have this momentum that people talk about with the music career, and you build it and you build it, and then it's rolling, and you do 165 days in one year, and it's happening and it's it's rolling, and everyone around you is saying, Yes, this is how you do it, this is how it works. When you stop and those moments of doubt happen, like how are you dealing with it? What do you do? Because I f I I think that this is one of the reasons why we're sitting here and talking right now, is because there will be a little mini ziggy out there who'll listen to this perhaps and go, Oh, I know what to look out for now. If I turn 20 and I'm just blazing on the music scene or my arts, whatever it is that your thing is, and now they perhaps might hear something here that's useful that will help them avoid that kind of burnout or struggle. So what do you do? Like now you've got the gap. How are you gonna how are you gonna do it?

Post Tour Blues Need A Plan

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Far out.

SPEAKER_05 48:39

I've never I've never thought talk about self-centeredness, but I've never thought about the way you just described the free surfing thing, and particularly linking it to like this generation, like the the the endless cycle and producing content, like and your your observation of that and how whoa these people are gonna burn out. And I feel like that's ramped up to that's ramped up in surfing and in music, and like you just said, even potentially, I almost think it could be even more full-on and free surfing because there is no clock. So unless you like you just said, like Yeah, there's no structure to lean on, you have to create it.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

You're creating all the time.

SPEAKER_05 49:20

That's where like touring is almost easy because I've like I've got a mission. Like my mission, like you know, Rain Hell or Shine is that like you get up on stage and and like it's amazing, it's almost like an excuse to like just get over yourself and do it, and you have a really great time.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

But the show starts and the show stops.

SPEAKER_05 49:37

Show stops, yeah. The show starts and the show stops. And I probably would say to some to to people coming up, and I hope I've articulated this well enough to there is like a whole swath of people coming through the ranks, which is amazing of singer-songwriters, and I think of you know, I think of a friend Steph Strings from um Victoria, like she's coming through and having like I feel like her biggest year ever now. And she's like come up through a couple of us, like friends, like has been doing support gigs and now she's on her own world tour, and she's doing her headline shows. Um I probably wasn't prepared and probably still not. I'm still learning how to contend with the physiological dichotomy of what goes on. So, like here you are at night, useful, working hard, like you can justify all of that. You're stacking dopingogenic experiences, you're singing, people are screaming your name. You're like how to make a complex with a human being. Yeah, if you think about it, like it's crazy because not only is it like people screaming your name, they might be screaming your songs and stories, and you're singing in uni together, which is all ridiculously and then that's some deep evolutionary brainwave stuff, you know. It's truly is incredible. Then you might be doing that with a team. So there's like this emotion of you've come together as a whole team to pull off this event, and then there's your home team of like family and friends who run the label, and you're all like, and then Monday, yeah, far out. I don't know. I think I think uh the last moment I can think of where it really got hold of me. I'm always surprised about it being a when, not if. There's always a small part of you that I think when you finish tour, and I talk with all my buddies touring friends around this, the post-tour blues. I think I'm always surprised by even now, all the years later, you always kind of hope that it's just gonna be an if you go down, if you feel down, as opposed to the best, the best way you deal with it is say, I will. It's probably gonna be out three days later. In the next couple weeks is gonna be times I'm gonna wake up and just be washed. And I I would love to one day nerd out and like get hooked up and like measure like what's going on chemically in your body, because it's like I've never done like hard drugs to know, but what I can imagine it feels like is it's like a full calm down. And now I think about like how sick I've gotten, like just like like where I thought maybe I just picked up a bug or something, but now I can like looking at the pattern, I've just been like, okay, it's like withdrawal, and I fire out. I don't know, I don't know. I've always managed, I think that like talking. I think the one of the last times that happened, I was like, called my buddy and just said, yo, can we please hang out? Like I'm like washed, like you're just shaky, and just I think it's so it's so physiological. I think that's what's trippy is that like you can be holding it together mentally, but like the physiology of just pushing and being on that adrenaline, lack of sleep, cortisol, sleeping wrong side of the clock, other side of the planet. Yeah, I don't know. I I I I think there's this like question that I have often thinking about like I have my dreams about wondering if I could like do more than I've ever done now. And I'm always then asked that question and look at look at people like look at Jack and think, yeah, well, Jack's life is amazing. Jack's life comes with other things. If you're like the flip-flop superstar, like if you're the Jack Johnson, like and you're a superstar everywhere you go, basically, which he is, shout out to you know, the go. There's things that come with that, or things with the documentary that we were talking about in the water, there's things that like come with that. I just yeah, I feel in short that I would definitely tell like the young, younger version of me, like, yo, you need like a strategy, whether that's like a phone-free week or go on like a mellow camping trip, reconnect with nature. Like you have to you have to have a plan, is what I'd say. And that you're gonna have to just continue to like work that out. But not if you need a plan to deal with like the post-tour feelings and assimilate back to like normal life. You you you need to have a plan.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Awesome, brother. That's super insightful.

SPEAKER_05 53:39

I hope that says something a lot very insightful.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

So, in this year-long break now, this year of not touring, what inspired the break? Was it a have to or a want to? It's a it's a brave move.

SPEAKER_05 53:53

Yeah, so many good things come from it. That's the that's I think I know that now, as trippy as it is. I had to. Like, I just was ign I was it was natural. It was a natural thing. First it was I want to, and then it was also it would turn out that I felt like I really had to. But just I think this is like our like Dave, you really like pointed to this constant pedal thing that I feel for sure. I can't imagine being a surfer now, being like a surfer coming up, like the constant biggest trick, biggest wave, like just being just constantly on.

SPEAKER_03 54:30

And I sorry, I would add to that for lots of people not even having a pro-surfing career or a pro-music career, but like people who are building businesses or showing up as social media personalities who also feel the same compulsion to constantly put themselves out there, and the pressure of that is crippling for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05 54:51

Yeah, I feel it's like I feel it's like our current psychosis. I feel like it's like a nothing's enough. And that that hamster wheel of content that you talked about, like it's like last time I checked, it was up to 60,000 songs a day go out to Spotify. Was the last stat that I saw. We're gonna have to check that.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

And how many of them are human made?

SPEAKER_05 55:10

Yeah, whoa. Okay, that's fully yeah. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 55:14

I know sad.

SPEAKER_05 55:18

Dogs what else is doing? There is people who are manufacturing artists that are putting out albums at a psycho rate and earning off of I don't know, I don't know. Of a computer designed, yeah, yeah. Whole albums imagine like it looks like a kind of like hipster like Fleetwood Mac ripoff band kind of vibe, and then it's they got albums and they got a full thing. I I feel potentially going off tang off on a tangent here, but I feel that the further that pushes, I feel like people are gonna want human music more. I think it's actually gonna like aid, I think it's gonna aid songwriters more, but there's plenty of good songwriters that might be wiser than me that are like seriously concerned, but I'm kind of like it's very similar in writing.

SPEAKER_03 56:02

You know, you see people I work on a print magazine called The Roaring Journals, and we've been getting submissions from people who are have obviously fabricated their piece with AI assistant. Like it hasn't come from them, and you can feel that, and you feel that in music. I mean, AI is getting better at masking that, but I totally agree with you that as time goes on, we will want more in real life experiences, we will want more eye contact, we're gonna want more tactile experiences because they're becoming yeah, less common.

SPEAKER_05 56:34

Yeah, I could be like, yeah, I could be wrong, and there's definitely moments I've been worried about it. But um, I think maybe also it would depend on like if you're maybe a writer for Sinx or for TV stuff where it's like, or for real estate ads, if you're doing the music for that, then yeah, maybe your job's at threat, but like maybe you're gonna have to like do something even more amazing or soulful, you know. So I yeah, I I don't I don't feel I don't feel as dystopian about it as maybe I should. I feel kind of like I feel a bit like this is not my idea, it's a Buddhist idea that it's gonna push, it's pushed this way, and it's actually gonna probably mean that heaps of people in the generation coming up are gonna wanna be even more authentic and more real.

AI Music And The Content Hamster Wheel

SPEAKER_03 57:15

Let's take a quick break to thank the generous folks who help us make the podcast possible. Patagonia is in business to save our home planet. Founded by Yvonne Chinard in 1973, Patagonia is a surf and outdoor apparel company based in Ventura, California. As a certified B Corp and a founding member of 1% for the planet, Patagonia is recognized internationally for its product quality and environmental activism, as well as contributions of nearly $230 million to environmental organizations. Its unique ownership structure reflects that Earth is its only shareholder. Profits not reinvested back into the business are paid as dividends to protect the planet. Learn more at Patagonia.com.au. A couple of years ago, our dear friends took us to their favorite hidden gem in Indonesia, Nalankala Eco Retreat, nestled in the cliffs of Sumba. In addition to farm-to-table food, Nalankala offers daily yoga classes, immersive cultural experiences, open air bamboo bungalows, and a beautiful right-hander out front. We all loved it. Learn more on Instagram at N G A L U N G underscore K-A-L-L-A. That's at Nullankala on Instagram. What do you do when your sunnies get scratched? We get replacements from the Sunglass Fix. They carry more than 600,000 lens options, a solution for virtually any frame. A billion pairs of sunglasses are made each year with hundreds of millions ending up in landfill. The Sunglass Fix offers free lens shipping in Australia and to 161 countries around the world. They're ready to help make your favorite frames last longer. Use code WaterPeople for 10% off your purchase today at thesunglassfix.com. So I was trading waves with friends recently on a sizzling summer day. Afterward, we guzzled down fresh water mixed with Sodi's everyday hydration salts. Sodi is Australian made, sugar-free, with salt from an ancient lake in WA. We keep a tub on the kitchen bench, a month of electrolytes in recycled and recyclable packaging. Sodi is offering Water People listeners a free eight-flavor sample pack and 15% off your order. Just head to Sodi, that's S-O-D-I-I.com.au slash waterpeople, or click the link in the show notes.

Why Stay Independent With A Label

SPEAKER_03 59:37

You mentioned the record label before, common folk records you founded with your family. I'm curious about your choice. At some point, big record labels would have offered you spillions of dollars and many tempting things, I'm sure. What made you choose to continue being an independent artist?

SPEAKER_05 59:57

I was on a boat when we were like discussing the like, well, I got pretty close to like signing like with somebody else, and I just couldn't I just couldn't couldn't like let go. So firstly, probably like some like control trauma definitely plays into it. But I think I just wasn't convinced that someone could like do a better job. Like the moment, honestly, the moment even now that me and management team, or if we really thought that someone was gonna like change my career some fundamental way, like you would still consider it now, but just I guess in maybe the last it's coming like maybe nine, eight or nine years, it might have just been the eighth birthday, like last month. There hasn't been a time yet where I've been convinced that someone at a major label is gonna be able to do a better job. I think also retaining your rights, it's something that I don't really understand. Because I was independent before and I stayed independent. I don't really, I can't really speak on James Blake, who recently became independent, who's a fantastic artist. I don't know him personally, who can speak on like the the horrors that he's contended with of not having rights to his masters, or um, I think about like a mainstream artist like Lord from New Zealand. Like she maybe just got out of a deal that she's been signed to since she was 13 and she's at my age. So it's almost hard for me to speak on the other side of it. It's like I just know I've retained my rights and I release music, have released music. I might argue with my family about it, but like I release music like when I want, and my albums don't get um shelved if they don't fit, you know, the album narrative. I don't get dropped from the label or wanting to stand up for fight for the bite. You know, there's all these kind of knock-on effects where I guess I just have the freedom, but it's been such a part of my life, it's almost hard for me without the experience of being, you know, it'd be cool to sit down with someone who's been on a major record deal their whole career. It'd be cool to sit with them and like compare notes. I think just I haven't had to answer to anyone, and that's really good. And I can take this year off, and it's a big responsibility, it's not for everyone. It's like being independent's a fancy way to say that you foot the bill. The cool thing about a label is that they foot the bill, but the bill goes against your card. It's a madness. They're still relevant now, and there's still amazing things they do. And I had this one moment on surfing of having some psilocybin, which was the best decision. And I had this moment of really disintegrating the idea that it made you better or worse being independent or with a major label. It disintegrated, it was just like any prejudice. It was like it's a bunch of people working towards like how can we not admire Ed Sheeran and all the humans that are working to make that possible. But I guess I get to like I get to retain my rights and and say what I'd like to say and produce the music I want to produce and tour when I want to tour, and people to that documentary that we watched, you know, people are so there's so much more control. Whole careers are like made and broken, whole the whole whole lives are like made and broken creatively on like dodgely signed deals, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

So yeah, and look at the I feel like culturally there's a world of it being um exposed right now when we look at things like you know, even the Elvis Presley movie that was incredible showing his radical manager that dominated his life. I don't know it, but it's a tell me more unbelievable story. Michael Hutchins story.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:25

Well, his was different, but still uh people who aren't the person twisting the narrative of the person and shaping their life as a result of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:32

And those mechanisms, I think that gets back to it's like thinking systemically rather than about just single individuals, but you could look at the system of it and they go, okay, the system of producing music and artists and the way that's shared with the world, that system is pretty is pretty much mechanized, and we look at all machines, they chew up and spit out stuff, and out of the exhaust pipe goes all kinds of shit, and a lot of the times those very artists at the core of it are spat out like that. And the Michael Hutchins one we were just talking about. I was I was sharing with Ziggy how last week I had a big feeling week of being introverted after having an extroverted period of time where we were showing films and filling community halls, and and I like to run like you know, on the fly, like you were talking about Ziggs, where I don't prepare, so I I like to run nights with my whole deal. Like, I can't run autopilot. I like give everything on those nights, and then afterwards I'm pretty gassed. And so uh I was having you know the other swing of the pendulum where I was very quiet and in the garden, surfing alone, being alone a lot, was bringing Minnow home from school, and we hit a ground pheasant bird with our car on the country road, and it's like one of the most beautiful birds you could ever see. So beautiful, the most stunning tail feathers, like an eagle that walks around on the ground, just so beautiful. And it just broke my heart that I'd taken this life so pointlessly. And I I go spearing, I spear fish, they're beautiful, I love them, I respect them, but we eat them, and then the chooks eat their frames, and then the the frame will go under a tree, perhaps, and it's all used and meaningful. And this life that I took with this with my stupid stinky freaking car was this beautiful bird, it was just so pointless. I was just heartbroken, I was like crying all lavo. And then that night I was sick, and in the middle of the night I couldn't sleep, we had a flu, and I was awake in the night and I watched that documentary about Michael Hutchins in Excess Frontman, and it was just heartbreaking. It was so heartbreaking. And what I saw in that was that again, that systemic machine like nature to the industry that consumes the artistry. And I thought that was really interesting to have watched before coming and having a hangout with you and talking with you because it feels like you are dancing that line in that world where you're looking. At it and going, mmm, no thanks. I don't want to play in that type of way or work in that kind of way. And so though you say you know you're on the outside and you haven't been on the inside of a record deal and among that machine, you are very aware of it and you're seeing it like quite close, and you've probably known people quite close who are being chewed up or have been chewed up by it. So when you mentioned in the water about the stacking of things with music, can you speak to that a little bit? Because I think that's really insightful and speaks to your level of like reflection and having a good look at yourself and look at your situation and what you get out of being a musician and yeah, just that idea of the stacking and the the value within your experience as someone who makes music. Well, so many things I want to say.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:52

So little time. I think being independent is people say you can't do it, or it's like I think that uh anytime people tell me something that you can't do it or it's impossible, that's not the way it goes. Like I think that if you feel the calling adventure to do it, then you set an example so at least other people say I could do it or we could do it, and just breaks that like paradigm. I think having the people that care about you more than just the music, and that industrial nature you talked about, it's so like it's so insidious. Like even being an independent artist and taking time to reflect, it's so insidious about you just like it's like this murmur. There's a book called Ish Ishmael. I don't know if you need it. Yeah, and it talks about the murmur of like society, like the radio that's on that you don't hear, but it's always playing. And I think that's like I'm at I'm at risk of that as much as anyone about the sway, and it's just about making sure you keep keep listening. The stacking in the water that we talked about for me is largely about this. To me, it was explicitly towards stacking the experience of let's say you're independent, so you have your rights and you go out on tour and you're touring with people that you care about, and you're healthy, and you get to go on stage and be mindful, and you're singing your own songs, and people, if you're lucky, are singing more than one of one that's singing any of your songs, and they're singing even more, you know, might sing half the set, like just crazy levels of crazy levels of like human experience that is so incredible, but you like gear yourself towards that. That becomes your living room, and you just get and you have to make normal of it. I'd love to speak to, or you guys should speak to Jack sometime to Jack Johnson about this, because to me, he's someone that I observed when we toured together who was really good at just kind of like walking on and off stage. Like it was his living room. He was very like, now how does he feel inside? I'm not sure, but kind of walked on stage. Walked off stage, and it would there was like, you know, to to my eyes, he might not have like his heartbeat may not have raised very much in a positive way. Like he was unhe was in but unaffected by the he could regulate, he could regulate throughout.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:56

Yeah, I've seen, I know exactly what you're talking about. You marvel at that when you see Jack, you're like, oh, you're talking shit on the side of the stage, and then he just walks out, and he's talking shit on stage.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:04

Yeah, and there's 20,000 people there going and that first and second gear, and like and the the intensity of that and the intensity of some of the shows and the length of the set that I started doing, I had to find the second gear, I had to find the second gear by by the situation, the second gear, and like that Royal Albert gig was so special to me because I walked off stage like largely like una affected by it. Like I was in it, but unaffected by the big high and low of it, which takes a lot out of you, and you have to if you're going to do it every night.

Surfing Flow State And Dissolving

SPEAKER_05 1:09:38

I think what comes to mind though with all of this, which is like where I was like psyched to try and speak with you guys, is part of the thing I've enjoyed at taking the time off, and the thing I've been really adamant about going towards is finding that same special place in surfing because it definitely hasn't come as it's the mindfulness thing, really like I just stumbled upon it graciously with music, or maybe it's the 10,000 hours, I don't know. But we're surfing less, and I think safe to say that my assumption is that like that's a big part of why you enjoy surfing is that place I call it like the second gear, or I don't know how to it's like it's not in words, but there's that special place in music, and I really wasn't enjoying surfing as much this last year or two. I kind of got into like a mindset of wanting to have a big gear. We'd bumped into each other. I was like, I want to have my biggest year of surfing, told gaz, you know, like and did dedicate more time to it, but was like enjoying it maybe less. And I kind of realized, and again, talks about how much talking about how important conversations are with people that you trust. Speaking of my buddy Zach, he's like, Why don't you just back everything off by like 50%? You know, like you kind of go out in the water and you're just trying to shred. Yeah, like you got you got shredding on your mind, and it just became unpleasant, and it was just been like a really beautiful like revelation to get out of that and like stumble upon some of those same feelings from stage of like flow and weightlessness and all of the cliches that you can kind of point to that's not in words. But did you always like I wanted to ask, have you always felt that with surfing? Like, did you stumble upon that at a young age? Did you ever drift? How did you get back?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:17

Well, you know how I was explaining this morning how I've been stuffing my head into tubes and taking that big deep breath, and I feel like a 10-year-old the last two days. That it's just that, and it's that thing of of realizing really early I get super side swiped by these feelings. And it's probably that Michael Hutchins story of him taking his life like my dad. Like just being a teenager with a dad that had serious mental health issues, and my older sisters had left home, and the only way I could deal with it was through surfing. It was yeah, it was lit literally the only like yeah, the only place, the only person, the only thing I could turn to like turn to. I didn't have family around, like no uncles or aunties. We moved from New Zealand, we didn't have a family network to talk with I couldn't talk with anyone about what my dad was doing and what he was like to live with. And um yeah, I just didn't have there was just nothing else. No culture of it. The Gold E was just not a place to talk about any of that stuff when I was a kid. So I'd just go to the ocean and I'd surf and I'd surf alone and that was how I would deal with it. And then as soon as I started having things uh heaped upon that, which was great at the time, and I fully back it for lots of us being pulled into competitions, being pulled into sponsorship, being offered those opportunities is really good for a lot of us, and that's what I had as a teenager. But when I would go to the beach and I would surf in a competition or have a camera pointed at me, if I lost the contest and I'd come home bummed, or if I surfed and there was someone shooting pictures and I didn't have a good surf, whatever that is, I'd feel like I was a kook and I'd let them down or waste of their time or whatever. And I'd come home, I would be super bummed. And all I could see with my logic was that if I continued down that path, it was that would just get more and more complex, and I there would be less and less joy, and there'd be more and more of that stuff. And so I just knew very early, I was just like, if I cannot just go to the ocean and dissolve into it, I'll come back to shore with all that baggage I went out with, if not more heavy, because I couldn't discard it, and I just wouldn't cope, and I just wouldn't cope with the world, and it's like you know, I think I'm a deeply feeling creature, so like the welfare of children, women, and animals and ecology is like something I feel deeply about in the world and for whatever reason, and often those areas of our world are full of pretty tragic stories, the way we treat women, the way we treat children, the way we treat animals, and so yeah, to be able to deal with all of that and those big feelings and then um yeah, function in life, it was just always about going to the ocean in the same way that we did this morning. Like that to me is my that's my way, and I've just always known if I if I lose that, I lose everything. And uh like I said, I don't need to go out and like do fancy surfing, technical surfing by any means at all. And you probably saw that. I'm just going straight and I'm hooting and hollering and fucking so lit up, so full of joy and gratitude. Um and but that's been perpetually, I keep that as a focus because sometimes I'll get carried away with a project or with some an opportunity, just like you say, like people come go, oh let's do this together, and and then all of a sudden surfing starts to have these layers to it, and I just I I'll do that and then I pull right back and go, no, no, no, no, no, no. I need to do this this way.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:23

I really marvel at the boundaries you set around protecting that, uh protecting surfing as an outlet for you, mental health outlet, a creative outlet. And Ziggy, I was really excited to chat with you around how in your career, as you've chosen an uncommon path of creating your own record label and life that gets exponentially busier or can get busier as you get, you know, achieve more success. How do you protect the space to keep creating to allow for inspiration to bubble through? How do you create those boundaries so you still have time to do the making that got you to where you are? It's not easy, is it? And I feel like that's something we can all everyone can relate to the compulsion to make and and the pressure of not having, not feeling like you have the time to do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:17

Man, no one's ever used the word dissolve with me, the dissolve into. And that's like I definitely feel that place in music. It's like no matter how hard anything else is is, in that moment, it's like this sacred thing. I don't think I necessarily have done the best job of late keeping the boundaries on it, which is why I've stopped. Yeah, I just I don't I don't feel like I have done the best boundaries because it's so it's so addictive to just be it's so addictive to be busy, it's so it's such an easy thing to justify being useful. Like it's like obvious when you have a purpose. Like if your purpose is just to get on stage and do this thing, you can kind of just justify all the means to end. I haven't thought about this, but maybe I'm safeguarded by that like I am a a sensitive person. I've been a sensitive person for a long time. And maybe just I think no matter how hard

Hospitalization And Daily Practices

SPEAKER_05 1:17:12

I try and push it, I just think that my my my body doesn't. I had like an odd, particularly odd, terrifying hospitalization at like 100 shows in five to go, and just like doing my usual thing, having a run, not resting enough, so much going on personally and in relationships, and end up in ambulance and like kind of very sideswiped by it. You know, wasn't it didn't feel like oh I'm feeling anxious about life. It was just my my my body had just given out. It was just like, dude, you know, if you're not gonna listen, I'm just gonna scream and just Wow. Yeah, yeah, definitely like definitely the one of the like like probably like one off the rung, it felt like that evening, you know, got through okay, but just yeah, who might have had a blood clot, it was inconclusive, looked like I had one, which would explain like the ridiculous heart pain. Could have could could have been explicitly emotional as far as it could have been. It didn't it didn't feel like it, but maybe if you switched off long enough, like that's just being transparent. I don't know. I look at it now and go, Oh yeah, maybe that's just your heart singing out to like dude, you can just never listen to me anymore.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:21

Was that part of what set you up for this year?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:23

For sure. Yeah, like it this year was already set, but if it ever needed more of a motivation, it was just like okay, I'm learning the balance and having the boundary, but I guess that I'm I'm here, and so I guess how how do you do it? I've had like a really interesting, full-on week or two and have been doing I've kept a journal for a long time and not easy to do, but have like been looking at the patterns of the journal, and I'm in the midst of it right now, not finished yet, but like in the midst of it, and that's definitely cool to look at like the recurring themes. So as mindful, as as mindful or learned or thoughtful, whatever else, I'm still I'm I'm I'm always shocked about how much I'm learning my lessons, and you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:07

Well, what about your do you have a journaling practice? Is it like is it like a daily reflection or do you set aside a certain amount of time? Do you have a prompt? Is it is it stream of consciousness? How do you approach the page?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:18

When I feel like it, it could be like it could be every couple days, or it could be a week, or it could be a month. For sure, for my personality, my discipline is absolutely my freedom. For my personality, which is not for everyone, but I've like that's just it for me. I'm I just wanna again, I feel like I I've got a couple confessions to make today, but one of them is just like just being very clear, I'm not a laid-back person at all. I'm not a cruiser. Like, I have to get out of the house by like seven, you know, like I've gotta go. I gotta go do something, I'm gonna be out in the world. But I feel like the thing that's definitely helped me though, I guess, or maybe the way I have like practiced some boundary or like have maintained a ridiculous schedule is like I'm 350 days a year of yoga. You know, like it's only 1520 minutes, but I do it every day. And like before a show, I'm always doing my vocal warm up. I always, you know, unless something's gone horrifically wrong, I always do my meditation and my whim half and breathing exercises. And I'm like ultra consistent on that. I think that's probably I can chug along for a long time if I do those things. Um, running, love like running in this, like in cities, like just the great way to like just chuck shoes on wherever you are and go. Learned that from Xavier, just from like observing him. I think what's probably kept me, what I think really helps if I look honestly around, and a pattern I've observed is like I love and adore surfing. So that's a great that probably is a great boundary for touring because at a certain point, like I I've got to get back into the nature outlet. You know, I I was a surfer before I was a musician for sure. Like I was, you know, heavily ocean obsessed. Music was a way that was going to take me to like see the world with with surfing or see the rest of Australia. Go play in like a town where I knew there was surf, which is like a way to like get from A to B. Um, so I think that having other things in your life that you're really passionate about outside of your career helps so much. And I've observed that with Jack, obviously he's got a huge environmental passion, amazing surfer. Look at you know, someone like John, who's John Butler, who's really great with his hands and skating and metalwork and musician. And you've got someone like Zave who loves surfing and running and camping, but like he he's not just I've observed that with people. I don't know if you've seen that the same with people who are like, I mean, those guys I could put there right. Um, they had more, they're not just musicians. I think it I think being a musician is a lot easier because I've got something that I care about that's constantly keeping music in check is that like I value my health, my mental, my physical health, and my like adventure, having a spirit of adventure is ridiculously important to me. And like surfing is the outlet of like my spirit of adventure. I think that helps keep me, keep everything in balance because if I don't have that for long enough, I just like throw in the towel, I'm like, I'm I'm out.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:58

You um you mentioned earlier uh how 2025 was going to be your year of surfing, this intensive surfing exercise.

Men’s Mental Health And Male Friendship

SPEAKER_03 1:22:06

How did that play out for you and where has it landed you?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:09

I had a really great, amazing trip on a boat trip with all of my buddies in the Ments, and that was hilarious and just one of the greatest memories of my whole life because of the people, you know, like the monsoon tea parties, you know, huge storms, and you're sitting out there with your Sunnies on still drinking tea, and food and just being silly buggers, and you know, the worst surf, it didn't matter. You know, we had we had a couple days of insane waves. Surfing is such an act of self-belief, which is why it's important to me. I have so many doubts in general in life, and that's just been the way for me since I was little. People would maybe assume I'm more confident than I am, and I'm being totally honest, I think I just I've just matched action with doubt. I just don't know what else to do. It's like just you gotta go. But surfing is continues to be a place that challenges like my self-belief. Like, what are you capable of? So the Ments was really amazing. I had a went to the Ments twice last year, which is crazy, and had one really great trip and one really awful trip that was just totally layered with bullshit. Not because of anyone else around me, everyone else was mellow. It's just that I had my own idea about needing to shred, you know, and you know, like I wanted to shred and I wanted to be 20% better, you know, or something, you know, like this idea and the camera thing, and there's like an element of Were you being photoed? Photo'd, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:23

Fuck that shit, man. Keep it at arm's length. I know so I have some authority, I have some inside authority on this. Keep it at arm's length, man. It doesn't, it never looks as good as it feels ever. Like ever. Seriously. It just will never look as good as it feels. So unless I feel like for so many of us, it's like if if you came in from that surf and you're on that indoor trip and there's someone in the channel shooting stuff, and they're like, Oh, hey, check this out, man. And then you look, rarely, or maybe you're different, uh are you? Do you have you looked at the footage and you've gone, yeah, yes, I nailed that. I'm amazing. That I feel even better now. Oh, I shredded.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:08

Uh it's it's it's the the mental, the mental, the rid like, and then you zoom out and then you think about the ridiculous of ridiculousness of being monkeys on board surfing and having anxiety because someone graciously who you might even like, who's an amazing human, is shooting photos, and you've got this whole like value equation of I'm wasting their time. What am I doing? Seeing someone else, you know, seeing, you know, I'm thinking about um Dylan Dylan Wilcox, who's maybe from who's like from the Ments, his dad runs can do, and one of the best surfers you've ever seen your whole life. Like, isn't incredible. You're like, why? Why are we even shooting? You get all this head noise on its best of day, it can be, I think, like a collaborative thing. Like it can be making art together, or where someone's in a lineup and you manage to get that wave and you've all traveled for this well. There is that positive place, but when you're like, I just had a shred mindset and it was awful and I was hating it, and I just kept getting, oh man, I got and the surf accidents, the bet the most recent one that turned it around for me was like copping fins to the nose and getting four stitches of my nose on like a two-foot day. Like totally, the cruise was fully just like because like you know, it was on and I was late and I was like rushed down to the beach, and like it's laughable, but it's that was like the most awesome, like not the turning point, but it was one of those moments where I was like, Okay, I either need to like enjoy surfing again or I'm gonna like do something else because this is ridiculous. Like, I can't be going surfing and coming back like less. But maybe maybe I've been able to afford that head noise because I've got music, you know. I've got that music, mu the music place I can always go there. But I stopped trying to shred. I've been going straight a lot more, which has been gorgeous. I'm going real straight. That's it. And just I just got lucky. For me, I yeah, such a social person got lucky with my buddy Zach, who said these kind of key unlocking words, and then you have one session, you just all of a sudden are like I just I I feel if there's anything from this year, it's been like one of the most important parts of the year was stumbling upon the thing I knew was there. Like I knew stillness amongst the chaos. That's as close as I can get, particularly the bigger waves. Get like if you can just be like still and in flow and going straight or doing a little turn, but getting barreled, like that's stillness amongst the chaos is like the highest value set that I have for like gigs and that second gear, flow state, whatever the name you want to point the arrow towards that feeling. But like I stumbled on it and I just like got back to enjoying surfing a bit more, and I'm like enjoying more of my sessions and more of my sessions and more of the feelings. And yeah, I I I fall apart sometimes, and I still want to shred. I still want to like you know, shred and and and look the part, but I've now like I've felt it because I knew it was there and I was like missing it in surfing, and so that's been like nice, and maybe that's just because of time. Maybe it's just like maybe you don't fall into that feeling so much if you like spend 200 days a year on tour, like you're practicing something else, so maybe I just haven't been exposed to it. Hey, I have to take this moment to have a confession that I've always wanted to make to Dave about when we first met. So when I was like a young whippersnapper, the first reason I wanted to be uh a free surfer even thought about the idea was the freeway by Barley Strickland. Yeah, Barley. Do you know so many people don't know that little? Well, shout out to is it's Barley Strickland Production. And we had the freeway at home on DVD, and I didn't realise like just how impactful that was. I watched that movie on tour again and thought of like the whole music lineup in that. This is way before music. This is like 12. And went to the Noosa Festival, don't know what year it was, but a long time ago, 20 years ago. Went to the Noosa festival and I had a chance to meet Dave because he was doing something social at the festival. I can't remember why you were there. Oh man, yeah. I know, but you were there. I've got playing music with Shannon and those guys. Yeah, so but you were like milling about and I got to meet you and I was so and I was so nervous at the time and I knew you're a free surfer and I remember asking, I was like, so like are you in the event? And you're like, oh no, like I'm a free surfer. And I was like, oh, but I I know that I'm just so nervous, and I just wanted to know if you were like we're doing an exhibition or something. And I'm sure my siblings even gave me grief about it, and it's just it's haunted me for two decades. So I just want to say I'm sorry. Okay, thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:32

He's told me so many times that's yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:37

I just had the yeah, had that moment, but that was the very first, that was the first time that I got to meet you, and I just I'm sorry that I fumbled at the first meeting. I'm sure you've thought about it a lot amongst all the other Grums that you've met over the years. Yeah, reflected on that many times. It's haunted me in my dreams.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:53

Well, it's gone now, you can let go of that one. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:56

Oh, that's so sweet. Ziggy, you mentioned how important your male friendships are, especially to you. And Dave, you you mentioned your dad earlier and the fact that he took his own life. Ziggy, you participated in a half marathon recently, and it was for men's mental health, is that right? In Australia, seven out of every nine daily suicide deaths are men. In the US, 15% of men say they have no close friends at all. That's up from 3% in 1990. I'm just wondering what what pulled you into doing that event in particular? Was it the issue? Was it the physical challenge? Why engage?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:39

I had no choice. I bumped into Doc on a bike ride and they were doing 21Ks 21 days. So the the brother and sister, it was for men's mental health, and it was for women's cervical health. It was like her cause and his cause was mental health.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:54

And they were doing 21Ks 21 days, and I bumped into So running 21Ks every day for 21 days? Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:00

Yeah, and they weren't like ultra runners prior to this. So that's an insane, like an insane thing. Like even if you run regularly, that's just like and I bumped into them in in town. I was like, what on earth? You could see they're running. What on earth are you doing there? They're like, So you're gonna come, like, you're gonna come on the next one? I was like, okay. So it was the first time I did anything particularly strenuous after being hospitalized. It was the first like pushing myself, but the beautiful layers of like doing something hard with a community, or like with community vibes, community spirit.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:28

With purpose, huh?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:29

With a cause. I'm a sucker for that sort of thing. You just everything's easier like that. Yeah, I man, what a what a trip to think that it's like not war. That's the biggest source, you know, like as far as that's like it's such a it's such a crazy statistic to wrap your head around. But I mean, if I've had my struggles, then like, and I'm surrounded by family guys that talk about their feelings, you know, a friend group like that, it's like yeah Yeah, the leading cause, it's the leading cause of death for Australian men 15 to 44. I feel like the the can the consumer cycle, the consumer cycle of the consumer cycle we face for sure. I feel like it's gotta be that we're participating in. And I feel like, you know, is enough enough. I feel like there's a shift even from my perspective, there's gotta even be a shift in the niche of let's say surfing. Like, so now you could go get the best way of your life, or someone paddles the best way ever paddled at Chioku. And it's old news the next day. Like it doesn't, it almost doesn't matter anymore, which is almost beautiful. It's like ridiculous, but crazy and beautiful because you go do that for your own reasons. You gotta go surf the biggest way of your life for your own reason now, not because it's gonna matter to anyone. Because online now it's almost like yeah, I don't know, ephemeral. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, and that that's the same with like great. So you wrote this like breakout hit like how do you feel when you're at home? Why? Why is it why is it the the biggest leading cause now? It's gotta be something to do with like lack of tanable purpose. We're never being more we're we're we're like completely hyper pseudo-connected, but like the most isolated. Yeah, it's almost like the devices we have are like the most isolating things ever.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:14

And don't you feel like men are particularly susceptible to withdrawal? It seems like that, like to turning to their interior life without bouncing feelings, thoughts, stories off of each other. I don't know, I see that in a lot of the men around me, especially as they age. There's a comfortability in the numbness of being alone, you know, that um that maybe women behave tend to behave a little bit differently than that.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:42

Yeah. Makes me think of someone like my dad being in the scenario of being, you know, the self-sufficient male of yesteryear. So like a lot of our parents' generation, you know, had this sort of pedestal look at being self-sufficient. It's like, oh, you know, you you can manage your own deal, don't be a burden on anyone. And that's passed down into our generation and younger of not being a burden. And it's like I think a lot of blokes probably feel like the world's a hard place and everyone's doing it tough. Why add to someone else's load by offering them your load? You know, like going to your mates, oh, I'm having a hard time or whatever, and you're trying to talk about it, you probably in your internal dialogue, there's that. You know, I know that's in a few of the circles I'm in where I know that's part of the the reasoning behind people blokes withdrawing.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:39

Am I even a man if if I have these feelings, like how do how do you feel like a man? Like, you know, I I how how to like you know, gosh, how to feel like you're not just the Peter Pan, not having like a go at Peter, just saying that I think with my own discipline where I started taking care of myself better. That's probably one of the few times I did feel like a man, I was actually taking care of myself more as far as like that's one of the few times I felt like I was starting to grow up, and maybe it's conquering some bad habits that you have. Like, that's the time where maybe you feel like you shift out of boyhood. I think facing something where there's no tap out. I think like for me, wildness isn't 2 a am off my head. Like gen, like respect if that's you, but for me, like wildness is like facing something like nature, and there's no like ding ding ref steps in, like if there's like eight foot of whitewash and and brief, you know, you just gotta figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:33

I mean, not being a man myself, I can just say that the like one of the great gifts of life is meeting sweet men who are able to share their emotions. It's like one of the most wonderful parts of life now, having grown up in a place where that that was not my experience of men and how they relate to women in particular. Um Dave, what I see in you is you are your absolute you have become your absolute best, most grounded self in your usefulness as a father. Like that has really helped you ground and be less susceptible to the waves, like the more tumultuous surface chop that maybe was more affecting of you as a younger person.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:20

And also like seeking out conversations, and that's I'll bounce it back to you, Lau, because you you you've got this curiosity and the willingness to speak with elders and be researchy and reading all kinds of books and areas of inquiry. And I just think of Arna Rubenstein, who we've had on the podcast. People can listen to our conversation with Dr. Arna. Having spent time with him, just that one liner that he uses all the time. The difference between being a man and a boy is that when you're a man, you know when you're acting like a boy. And I just love that. And it's and I can take that in two ways personally, and that's like in the water today. I feel like a little boy, and it's fantastic. Like it takes nothing but a bit of light bouncing off those lefts with a dark headland behind them to make me feel like a 10-year-old boy. And then there's other times where I've got stuff to do around the house or for the family or for kids or whatever, and I perhaps don't want to, and I'm acting like a little boy, and I'll I don't want to do this shit, man. Like, and then I go, Oh, hang on. That's me acting like a little shit. I'm acting like a little boy. Step back and like pull pull your head in, basically. Can you relate to that? Is that a feeling you're gonna do it?

SPEAKER_05 1:36:32

Oh my god, absolutely kidding. Yeah, that's that's a beautiful. I've haven't heard that line before though. Is that you just know when you're acting like one? Yeah, that's that's a great one. I'm gonna take that one with me for sure.

Defining Artists And Timeless Art

SPEAKER_03 1:36:45

Ziggy, who are the artists that you are really feeling like are defining this moment in time? You know, like feel like every generation has like defining artists who capture the zeitgeist in kind of a timeless way. We've got the Beatles, and or I think of like Nirvana and the 90s, and a couple of winters ago we had this winter playlist, and Andrew Byrds um Bloodless, that song was on it. And we both would just like stop and be like, knowing we were in the presence of great art that was capturing the mood of the culture that we're in, the wider culture at this moment in time. Are there artists like that who you feel like are defining right now?

SPEAKER_05 1:37:24

Gosh, um, yeah, but yes, I do. One of them I don't know, like timeless time. There's someone who I can think of that is a ripper artist who's like super poppy, but they have so much to say about the world. The 1975 from England, and they're like ultra poppy and kind of give this blaz that like you would you would be right to listen to them and be like, they're not saying anything about nothing. And you dive into the catalogue or into their lyrics and certain songs. It's like trippy to think about if something at the moment can like like describe or capture the Zeitgeist. Like if there's something that can describe and capture the Zeitgeist and equally be timeless, that would be an amazing like mission to be on. I can think of Mel Kahan does that a little bit. He's like uh telling you about in the water. I think he's captured some of like the feeling of feeling and weirdness of modernity. He he has this line in one of his songs, spent my savings at a Lulu and now I'm suffering in style. And like, you know, and like that's like a crazy that like straight away I know what he's talking about. Yeah. So that that's interesting. I think timeless making timeless music is at an all-time low and it's a super exciting thing that we should like be headed towards. It's not a big focus for like, I don't think, for artistry. The tricky thing is you don't necessarily make timeless music by focusing on it. You know, it's like one of those like it can become a- It can't really be an objective, can it? You know, like I'm gonna make something time. They kind of like I'm gonna tread.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:47

Oh my god, how would you even start if you set out to make something time? Oh my god, they're overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:52

But like but there is stuff that we look at. Like you look at Bob Marley, you're like, come on. Like some of his stuff, like it's it was ahead of his time, and it's still like it can, it's it wow, so special.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:02

So Well, you brought up brought up Bob, I have to ask, is your name from the great Marley family?

SPEAKER_05 1:39:08

I get this question a fair bit. I'm sure. And it is not from the Marley family, it's actually from the my mum was a big fan of Bowie. I knew it.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:18

Yes, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:20

And I went to play guitar left-handed all these years later, which is awesome. But also my sister's soft toy, my sister, older sister, her soft toy lion was called Ziggy. And so it was kind of like you know, two strikes, and they were like, this is gonna be it. This is the name. Yeah, it's the ty music at the moment is in such an interesting place because it's there's so many hyper niches. It's like we have so many, like we have breweries like in Australia. We have like breweries that are making like ultra-niche, everything's like there's so much music now that to try and think about songs or an artist that is capturing the site, guys. The 1975 and Noah Kahan. I think those are two artists that are in the mainstream, so to speak, but are like capturing the moment. Yeah, but yeah, it's trippy connecting to like there's so much great music that connects to so many masses. I went to an Ed Shearing concert. It was so crazy to like listen and watch and realize that like our crew on the program, like around the world, and the bubble that I walk into in all little rooms around the world, it's like it's it's funny how it's like the whole world isn't um granola bars and hiking and yoga. You know what I mean? Like it's like pretty shocking when you walk out of it. Yeah, and so yeah, going to a big major concert recently, I was like and in the crowd, and it was awesome, and it was unreal, and it was even more awesome because he's on stage largely by himself with a guitar doing three nights at a stadium, you're just like, how is this even possible?

SPEAKER_04 1:40:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:38

But it's interesting that you say about like it is we should we could have the aim of making something timeless because at the moment there's a lot of focus on making something relevant in music, and there's a lot of pressure to be relevant, and that pressure's always been there for sure. But I can certainly say that, like, even in my bubble, safeguarded by family and an independent career, it's you still can be swayed by wanting to make something that connects with people now. But we're in the time of like super hits that last like one week. It used to be a one-hit wonder that would last someone's life, and then it was like a one-hit wonder that lasted a year, and now it's like someone's the next biggest artist for like 24 hours. Like it's insane, and like it it probably won't last like that for much longer, I don't think. Like, at what point is it too much turnover? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:25

That's super fascinating, and it makes me think of that period when the Spotify tech was coming out and people were freaking out, artists were freaking out about music being accessible on the internet like for free and just everywhere, and that music careers were gonna just die. And then the the feeling in the air of it pivoting to people's in-person performances and the value of you, yeah, like it you you can't just rest on your record sales as an artist anymore because those record sales don't exist. There's no there's nothing there for that, so you have to go out and be in a room with people again. Like at that period, I I forget when that was early 2000s or something. I reckon, yep. Yeah, and I just remember that being such an interesting time because it was so doom and gloom, like, oh my god, the internet's gonna destroy the music world, and then the same with books. It's like, oh no, books are no, no one's gonna be reading books, and here we are, it's 2026, and books are still powering, and people love them perhaps more intently than ever. Uh, and so yeah, I just wonder, like, when thinking about the artistry of timelessness and reflecting back to the world. It makes me think of the lyrics in your song where you talk about your having your guard up and down and a young man speaking that way in those circles. It's probably not that common yesterday. And thinking about you striking a chord with people, probably in that realm, whereas there's more articulation of being a young fella, a good-looking, talented young fella who can speak that way. And so I don't know, there's just something there that I feel like it's cool to hear you talk about the maybe the bottoming out of the music worlds, like timelessness and artistry there, and what's gonna come from that. It's like, yeah, you're at the bottom, and what's gonna sprout and grow next is really exciting, and it's cool to know that you're in that mix and yeah, you're playing those venues and you're in those bubbles, and it's yeah, it's just been really cool for us to watch that for everyone who knows you in our surfing music circles to watch that and to see you do so well with it is really cool because you're kind of like an astronaut coming back, and you can come and talk to people about your exploits in the exterior of life. Like, you know, you go like, and I think that's part of the spectacle of musicians, wouldn't you say? Like, why we love the story, even though they're tragic tales of Michael Hutchins and the Morrisons and all these different people over decades. It's you you're reporting back to the rest of humanity, like what it's like to have that peripheral vibrant edge as a life.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:05

And what an interesting time to live in a moment where artists can also be healthy and long-living, you know, and not succumb to the old stereotypes of needing to be thrashing bodies in order to make good art. You know, I feel like that that feels really exciting and fresh.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:24

Yeah, the radical thing is to not be a spark that burns brightly but briefly.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:29

You just said something it's like, again, so beautiful. Music is literally a doorway to humanity. That's the big like the biggest gift, is that people just come up to you and they're like, and and they they it's like it's so it's so precious and tender, and it's like a really big responsibility that you are that I think musicians we need to be like so mindful of and honest with each other about how precious it is that people just like come to you with these stories or like hey, you were like because they know you they're like your song was in my ears in this time of my life, you know, and and I feel that way. Like yeah on the huge responsibility, like here, yeah, it's a huge responsibility, but and like you should like it's easy to act like a boy when you should act like a man about it as well. Like you gotta that's like a gift, don't don't screw it up. Coming here today, like I put on the Every Kingdom Ben Howard album, which all my friends know they're like, Oh, we're in the Kawasy because this album's going on. Um, and it's like like that moment was with me when I first like drove down south in my little Corolla, you know, and was you know, uh duct taping the orcs chord and playing this song on like a wintry day in the northern rivers and like surfing till after sunset and then rushing and setting up a gig and being like nothing in the world could be better than what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:42

I am so in awe of the way that music for me. I use music to pull me back to myself when I'm feeling far from myself. Like there are some songs that take you back to a particular time, but there are some songs that are part of my that were a part of my childhood that are still a part of my life that make me feel like, oh yeah, this is oh, this is who I am again. It's crazy. And it's it's kind of why I've been thinking about just reflecting on music, knowing we were gonna chat with you, Ziggy, how I I often have the house quiet because I feel like music is so powerful. Sometimes it strong arms my emotions. It's like it pulls me into feeling a way that I don't actually feel, but it's like you're pulling me in this other direction. So I often have the house just bird song.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:26

Yeah. Ziggy, I wanted to ask you about the new decade that you've

Thirties Grounding And Redefining Success

SPEAKER_03 1:46:30

entered fairly recently, being in your 30s. Van life was a huge part of your early career, and movement and freedom were a big part of that early life too. Maybe they still are, but I wanted to ask you about this new decade and if it feels different for me. The my 30s definitely brought a personal biological change that made me make very different decisions in my life and my career. Um, and I was wondering if that's feeling similar for you or different.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:58

Oh, for sure. I absolutely appreciate the groundedness of a home now more than ever. Yeah. Like I used to be happy to come back and like just be vanning, like finish touring and but like absolutely not no way, appreciate like appreciate being able to like whether it's my house or another house, but for sure, like the kind of anchorless thing when you're already doing the tour thing a lot, that's definitely changed. And I think I really someone said this before, like stumbling uphill, but I definitely in the last couple years was like the next decade is like healthier, happier, stronger, more peaceful. That's like that's that's my like deepest desires for the next decade. It's like look back at 40 and be like, can't even believe I thought that this was how hard I could tread. No, I can't even believe just like look back and be like, oh wow, like I thought like that's I thought that was like me topping out at what I'm capable of, whether it's that second gear or like how you can show up in relationships, or just handle. Went on a trip recently with my partner and my cousin and my little niece, and like just that showing up, like coming finishing work, music work, and then there being like a screaming child, and just like when you like show up there, you feel like you know, even if it's me just on Uncle Judy's for like a second, you know, or for that trip in particular. But like it's cool when you like, wow, there's actually there's there's more of me than I thought. Like I can, I can I I got like even a bit more to offer. I could handle myself just a bit better. And then you throw a wobbly and you don't handle as a good. But yeah, that the next the next decade, I just feel like that's that's the dream for me is to just yeah, like healthier, happier, stronger, more peaceful. That's that's my big mission. And that's something that came up. And and surf more. Surf more, not less.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:46

Oh, Sam, I want to read a quote to you quote, you will begin to touch heaven, Jonathan, in the moment that you touch perfect speed. And that isn't flying a thousand miles an hour or a million or flying at the speed of light, because any number is a limit. And perfection doesn't have limits. Perfect speed, my son, is being there. We've talked about how freedom has you know been a recurring theme in your life. I wanted to ask you about success. What does that word mean to you now?

SPEAKER_05 1:49:21

Success is just knowing you really you gave it your all not in the self-sacrificing way, but just you prepared to the utmost your ability. Try to show up and all the ways you knew how, and when you get to stage, whether there's a hundred people there or ten people there or ten thousand people there, you're just there and you're mindful and you're in the moment with people and you try and give yourself, that's that's when I feel successful. It's when I've like just done everything in my preparation that I can to to to be there. That's what real success feels like for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:59

It's the I but I can put my card up, need to let me die. But are you complaining that I wasn't always around? It's the eye, but I keep putting my card up, you let me die. But you can't play that wasn't always around, my card up.

Where To Continue The Conversation

SPEAKER_03 1:50:43

Thanks for listening with us today. Our editor this season is the multi-talented Ben Jake Alexander. The soundtrack was composed by Shannon Sol Carroll, with additional tunes by Dave and Ben, and a special track from Ziggy Alberts called Runaway. We'll be continuing today's conversation on Instagram, where we're at Water People Podcast. And we're now on Substack. Sign up to get bi-monthly updates in our newsletter called Field Notes. It's where we share behind the scenes stories from making the podcast and the books, films, and music we're absorbed in at the moment. Written by us, free to read. Link is in the show notes.