In this episode, we continue our conversation with Dr. Tim Riley and cover the pillars of effective parenting and the importance of self-care. Parenting is not a sprint; it's a marathon, and the mental and physical health of parents is key to winning this race. Dr. Riley highlights the importance of imparting positive behaviors to our kids, a task achievable only when we are in our best shape.
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Thanks for listening!
In this episode, we continue our conversation with Dr. Tim Riley and cover the pillars of effective parenting and the importance of self-care. Parenting is not a sprint; it's a marathon, and the mental and physical health of parents is key to winning this race. Dr. Riley highlights the importance of imparting positive behaviors to our kids, a task achievable only when we are in our best shape.
Stay up to date by following us on your favorite social networks.
Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | YouTube
Have questions or comments? Email us at contact@kingofkings.org.
Thanks for listening!
Welcome back to another edition of beyond Sunday podcast, the parent teen podcast edition, and this is a wonderful day because we're going to finally get into the teases over folks. We're going into some of the practicals. You've heard some of the practicals already, but we're going to get into more of those. Before we do that, I'd love to say welcome back to our awesome leader of this conversation, dr Tim Riley. How you doing, dr Tim? Well, I am well above average. Well above average. Dr Tim Riley is the author of a couple awesome books. How many books have you written? Only two, two.
Speaker 2:And what are they so? The first is the one upon which this podcast is based Yep, first the broccoli, then the ice cream. The new subtitle for the upcoming second edition is a positive parenting approach to teaching and discipline. The previous version is a parent's guide to deliberate discipline, currently available on Amazon. The second, also available on Amazon, is a more adult focused book called how to Live an Unstucked Life, unwind Anxiety, subdue Stress and Quiet your Busy Brain.
Speaker 1:Wow, excellent, and so you're in the process of discussing the new edition. Yes, and that'll be done when it gets done. Folks Get off our backs, but we're excited for that to get wrapped up. But if you want to read the old edition, then get the new one and glean even more. The new one will be on Amazon once that's complete, as well, eventually, yes, there you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very good. So go become unstuck and learn about parenting, and then you can learn about parenting some more. So we've laid this outrageous foundation that I've found so helpful for me, and if you haven't tuned into any of these parenting podcasts before, go back and listen to the first six and then come back to this one, because now we are into positive discipline and we're on step one. Here we go, dr Tim.
Speaker 2:Okay, so just to reiterate what we talked about at the end of last session, we're always guided by some fundamental principles, so we'll probably mention this several times again before we're done. Always, always, always. The goal of discipline is to teach positive, appropriate, useful, productive behaviors, the kind that will help our children succeed in their own lives long after they're out of our house. So we're not training behaviors to make our own lives easier, we're training behaviors to make their lives better. Second is discipline is not an event, it's a process. It's a series of events, right? So most positive behavior change happens over time, not overnight. So we focus on getting what we can out of an individual disciplinary interaction. We teach today's behavior today and then we go on to the next one, right? So we have expectations that there are these monumental changes in behavior from one day to the next.
Speaker 1:So change happens over time, but the difference really happens in every little moment. Yeah, it builds.
Speaker 2:And with kids, you know it's not a linear process. It's not like you know learning math or something like that, that you know you learn a behavior and then you've got that behavior. And the way I say this is sometimes just when you think of you know a behavioral skill has soaked in and they've really got it. Then their brain springs a leak and they've got nothing the next day. So learning how to not be frustrated because of the fact that your children are children is one of the important features of approaching the task of parenting.
Speaker 1:Wow. So less like trustable building blocks that you can step on over and over again and more quicksand that you happen to not die in Sure, sure. That will not be included in the revision of the new book. So step one, here we go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're going to back up just for a second here. All right, very early on in the process we talked about acting like an adult in the grown up job description and all of that, and so we focused so much on here's what we're doing for kids. Here's what we're doing for kids, and this is why we're doing it, and we're teaching behaviors to make kids' lives better and all of that, and that's right and correct in from my perspective. But you're only going to do that well if you're in a position to do that right.
Speaker 2:If your own life consists entirely of parenting, or even the dominant focus is on parenting, you're not going to do it as well as you otherwise might. So I mean, the test for me is if 90% of your clothes have a jelly stain on them somewhere, that most of your calories come from eating crusts and leftovers off your kids' plates, and the most stimulating intellectual challenge you've had in the last week is to try to figure out what that stuff growing under your kids' bed might be. You need to make some changes, so you can't help your kids if you deplete yourself entirely in that process, and so I mean, I know this is kind of an old saying, but the version of it I rely on came from the book the Last Lecture and it goes like this the Last Lecture.
Speaker 2:A really good book if you've not read it. The best piece of parenting advice I've ever heard is from flight attendants when things get really rough, grab your own oxygen mask first, right. So when things get shaky, you got to make sure that you've got enough strength in that you are devoting time and energy to keeping your own resources up if you're going to do that job well. So there's no benefit to being a martyr as a parent, and some parents, I know, feel selfish if they take time or devote resources to their own mental and physical health, but it's really necessary. An important part of thinking about that is it's demonstrably true, based on research stress is contagious, and so if your life is nothing but stress-filled and overwhelmed all the time, then that's going to flow through to your kids. So whatever that means in terms of you finding some time to nurture yourself and to interact with other human beings who are taller than four-foot-two, that needs to be done, and it's not only okay to do that, but it's necessary to do that.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is that step one of positive discipline for our kids is to get away from our kids. Yeah, to take care of yourself, to take care Wow, I expect to turn people color me surprised. So we need to get away, be with other adults, get healthy. Maybe that's working out. Maybe that's like just being laughing and going out and Going to breakfast and having the loaded hash browns, oh my goodness, if you haven't tried them, try them, you'll feel like you're about, you're loaded yourself, ready to explode.
Speaker 1:So that is. I'm surprised to hear this, but really you can't give from something you don't have. Is what you're saying Precisely Great.
Speaker 2:Maybe as important is you know too much attention, too much insulation. You know make sure kids dependent and obviously they are dependent on you to a certain extent but you want to move them toward, you know, independence and so if your entire life revolves around them then they will expect that that will continue to be the case and not adjust. Well, when other adults in their life, like coaches and teachers and stuff, don't see things that way and at some point they're gonna be obligated to be independent and you want them to be prepared for that.
Speaker 1:Now this can look very different for different people. I mean, I think about, like the difference between married or single parents, Like this can look very different. So for me and my wife, it's us actually going on a date, actually getting away, you know those type of things. Can you talk to us a bit like what does this look like? Is this as important for single parents?
Speaker 2:So obviously, single parenthood is a significant and probably still growing portion of our population, and so this is a big deal and clearly it's harder it's hard for two parents, but it's harder still for single parents to be able to find something that you know allows them to reload their energy, instead of just expanding energy on working, I'm keeping up the household and, oh, by the way, I'm trying to discipline and motivate the kids and at the end of the day, I got, you know, more day left than energy and more month than money you know, at the end.
Speaker 2:So it's hard to do but still important, and maybe something that helps to frame up the importance of that is to keep in mind that, at least for your kids, you're the most important person in the world and that's a really big title and you should give yourself the respect that that title deserves.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so, even if it's nothing more than you know reading some book other than something un-parenting, you know reading something for pure enjoyment, or binge watching some stupid show, or spending some time outside with a nice tea or whatever. It is just reminding yourself it's not only okay, it's necessary for me to continue to nurture my own interest. Join a book club, go to a church, get in an online class somehow, Wow.
Speaker 1:I love this. And so parents out there, this is like freedom for you. So say, when you're a young adult and before you had kids, or in your college or high school years, and you love to read fiction, and you haven't read fiction in 15 years because your kid won't stop screaming, and so you're just trying to help yourself figure that out, and you've read every parenting book you can find. I mean, we've got one. It's so funny. We've got one on our dresser in our rooms called the Explosive Child.
Speaker 2:That's right next to first the broccoli.
Speaker 1:Then you're just going to say that, yes, yes, and my kids now can read, and so we're my wife is out of town, we're playing in the bedroom and they both my nine year old and seven year old start laughing and I'm like what is so funny? They can't stop their laughing. They said what is that book? The Explosive Child? And I just went along with it. It's all about this kid. It just explodes, you know, like he's just full of dynamite and they thought that was the funniest thing ever. But I know that we have gotten ourselves caught up in this. Like when we have free time, we should learn how to parent better, because this is hard and what you're saying is no, like, don't stop doing that. Listen to this podcast, but also read that fiction book. Refill yourself so you have energy to give. Yeah, Great, All right.
Speaker 2:So Put your own oxygen mask on first Get the oxygen mask on first.
Speaker 1:What does it look like for that single parent then giving out when they, when they're ready to start dating again?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know that's for many parents who are single parents. I mean, part of that process of reintegrating or integrating with the adult world is I want to get back to dating or, you know, some kind of socializing with the opposite sex. And those are important moments and need to be considered carefully, in my opinion. You know, the impulse always is to act on. Oh, you know, I'm interested in somebody here. They're really nice, I really like them, my kids are sure to really like them, so I'm going to introduce them to my kids right away.
Speaker 2:And that's almost always a mistake. If kids have lost a parent by separation or divorce or death, they're already vulnerable. And then, you know, you introduce somebody new to them before they're ready for that. And results are predictable in one of a handful of different directions. I mean, one is potentially that they latch on to that person because it feels like they're filling a space that's been missing for them with the absent parent and they get too attached too soon and if that relationship happens to not work out, then it's devastating for the kid who now absorbs a second loss in a pretty short amount of time.
Speaker 2:Another example is that they resent that new person for and potentially their, their remaining parent, for trying to take the place of the now absent parent. And so again you set the stage for a bad relationship going forward, if that relationship happens to work out. And now you're starting off on kind of the wrong foot because they're they're viewing that person in a negative way. Sometimes kids do you'll forgive the phrase here what I refer to as peeing in the corners, which is, you know, they feel like that person is intruding on their territory.
Speaker 2:And so they're sort of mark in the space and you get kids who will act up in a big way and try to assert themselves and really push back against that new person coming in. So that process just needs to be managed and, you know, just be intentional about doing that if you find yourself in that situation. Generally speaking, waiting longer is better.
Speaker 1:And when you say way longer, it's not in dating or hanging out with people the opposite sex, it's, it's it's waiting to introduce those folks to your kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on those occasions when you can interact with that other person, you're developing your own relationship. You're making sure that, yeah, this is a person that probably my kids are going to get along with, but that doesn't mean you bring them home right away. I mean, the rule of thumb and this is kind of hard to hear is a year, wow, before you bring somebody else new in to contact with your kids. And when you do that, you do that not in your home but you do that in public places. So you're interacting and preferably public places where there's something enjoyable for the kids to do. And now you're creating positive associations between this new person and your kids and then you gradually bring them into. You know kind of they're going to stop over and visit and you know this person. You've been, you know 40 places with them already.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, thank you for getting into that that. That feels heavy and serious and but it's important for us to learn about.
Speaker 2:So Okay, yeah, it's a little bit of a sidebar here, but just to kind of set us up for going forward. So.
Speaker 1:Step one act like a grown-up and fill yourself up so that you have something to give from. Kids are a reflection of our stress, and so if we're all stressed out, they're gonna feed off that and they're gonna start acting like that. So don't be surprised if they see you stressed out about everything that they start acting in that same way anxious, irritable, whatever it is. And then, moving on, you talk about in your book about building a safe harbor.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So not only is stress contagious, but calmness contagious, right? So imagine yourself out on the ocean. I was just on the ocean on this little fishing thing a couple of weeks ago and the waves are rolling in, the storm you know, the mother of all storms has rolled in and there's lightning and waves and rain and all of that kind of. The only thing you wanna do in that moment is get to somewhere safe.
Speaker 1:Oh man, it sounded like you're in Moby Dick. Yeah, it was kind of like that, oh my goodness, you were riding a whale.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was looking for fish that never appeared, but that's another story oh, sorry about that.
Speaker 2:So I mean, you know a sailor in that condition just wants to get to safe harbor, Just a place where things are calm and settled and predictable and they can set their anchor and just be okay for a time. And that's really, generally speaking, the kind of environment you wanna create in your home where things are safe and secure and predictable, where parents act in reliable ways, where there are schedules and routines. A kid kind of knows what to expect from one day to the next.
Speaker 1:So, okay, one of the things that we did recently in our home. We haven't been great at filling the kids in on our schedules and, honestly, as they were young, they really couldn't keep up either way. But now that we have a seven and nine year old and they're like when do I go on that play date? I know it's coming up, but when is it? So we've done something different For us.
Speaker 1:We've just put up a big planner the way we did this, and maybe you could use this idea. There's actually frames called snap frames, where the edges of the frames come up, and so you can get big paper planners and you can write everything in and you can substitute a new month rather than getting the tear off ones that kids might accidentally tear off and now your month is gone or whatever. So we've put that up on our wall and we fill in our calendar and so our kids can now see what's going on. But after reading this section of your book, my thought is maybe I should also start to put in some routines in that calendar that give them a little bit of safety, even if it's Taco Tuesday.
Speaker 2:Right. So I mean, if you think about I mean at a household level, at a parenting level what are the characteristics of a safe harbor? Right, this is a place I can go, just let down my guard, be myself. I know what to expect. I don't get surprised by a lot of things all the time.
Speaker 2:So you know, kids in a safe harbor home know they're always gonna be loved and accepted, no matter what. They know that their parents are gonna be predictable and reasonable and consistent in the way they react to them. They don't need to worry about rejection or harm and that things will be calm and settled inside even when life outside is not, especially when life outside is not that. That's a place that they can go back to and know that they have the opportunity to rest and recover before they re-engage again. If you don't provide that, your kids will find it. If they don't find it in your home, they will find it somewhere else. They'll find somewhere else where they feel accepted, where they feel like they're not overwhelmed with stress or challenges or whatever. They will find someone else with whom to have that. We all seek that place of safety and security and if you don't create it for them, they'll keep looking for it and they'll find it somewhere else.
Speaker 1:Now I've often heard people say like and we've seen this with our own kids is they do well in school? The teachers have very rarely have negative things to say about them, and then they come home and it's like craziness and we're doing our best to make it a safe harbor. But I've heard people say well, that's healthy. It's healthy if they let loose at home. Is that accurate or is that just something people said to make us feel better?
Speaker 2:No, I think it's okay for them to let loose at home. I mean, probably an indication that they trust you. Right that? What is important in that is how do you react to them letting loose at home? And, by the way, it's far more likely, almost to the point of non-existent, the other way for kids to misbehave at home and not at school, rather than to do well at home and misbehave at school, that's rarely the case. But so what are the things about school? School has rules and routines, clearly stated expectations, clear consequences for what happens if you don't some positive peer pressure, all of those kinds of things. And so kids will tend to fall in line with those most kids. And so you wanna replicate some of that at home. But if they're gonna act out, you want them to test things at home so you get a chance to correct and turn those behaviors in a positive direction.
Speaker 2:So you know, and what this speaks to, is that the idea of a safe harbor is that's a place where you can set down the anchor and settle in for a while. But that's not what ships are built for. Ships are built to sail. So we have that established safe harbor thing. But then the idea is okay. Now take that and get back out. Go use those skills elsewhere.
Speaker 1:So in order to create the safe harbor you talk about, like settling the waters rather than stirring them up, so how can we do that?
Speaker 2:So it's. Cultivating calm is what I suggest. First, it goes back to you making sure that you're meeting your own needs, you're able to maintain some calm, you've got your own sort of ability to manage your emotions under control, that you behave reasonably rationally, all of that that's. You know another 10 podcasts. So we'll skip that part and assume you've got that under control. But by and large, uncertainty is unsettling. Right, it is for adults, it is for kids. So what we want to do is create a certainty, create routines, create structure. Have a kid. Know that I can kind of count on how things are gonna look in my house.
Speaker 1:I can count on how my parents are going to respond, because it's the way they responded the last time and the time before that and the time before that Could I dare say that if a parent is struggling staying calm, or if they are becoming anxious or stressed out or angry, could your unstuck book be helpful? Sure for parents yeah.
Speaker 1:So there's all kinds of resources, parents, because there's a lot of us in those waters. So this is an opportunity, like sometimes read your fiction, but then also read some of those. Get some more tools in your toolbox so that you can help settle the waters rather than stir them up, because stress, like we said earlier, is contagious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but so is calm. So how do you go about doing that? Well, you go about doing it by building structures that impose some routine on your life, and we'll talk about three particular areas here. One is schedules, which is the when things happen. Routines, which is the, or procedures maybe, which is how things happen. And then traditions, which is kind of the longer term version of structure. What you want is for kids to have things to look forward to in a positive way and then to have those things actually happen.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's, in creating a safe structure, this uncertainty. If we have uncertainty in our schedules, our procedures, our traditions, that can be pretty unsettling for kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean think about things that happen in your life where something happens. Your, yeah, you know your car won't start, or you get a surprise letter from the IRS, or you know.
Speaker 1:Tim, I told you those things in confidence. Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2:So could we block that part out? That's the the. You know it's. It's unsettling, yes, when or you have an illness and all your routines break down. Everything that you've, you know, structured in absolutely the same thing for kids. We all have to deal with those things, but what you want is to be able to deal with them and then come back To a place where you can settle again and regain.
Speaker 1:So don't neglect them, deal with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah and then return it, but then recover and set sail again.
Speaker 1:Okay, so uncertainty is settling. Repetition is powerful. You give some examples driving a car, playing an instrument.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kind of complicated behaviors right that seem really Difficult at the time. Yes, I mean, think about all the stuff that really happens when you drive a car. You're looking in the mirrors. You got all these pedals and gauges and all these things you look at. In the first two or three times you did it, or first hundred times you did it, it was like, yeah, I don't know, and now you don't think about any right and every time there's a new snowfall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's mostly dodging other people, but. But, but the fact is these really complicated behaviors get to be pretty, pretty simple and pretty automatic If you do them well at each stage of the process. If you learn each step well and practice it, then you you do it without thinking. It becomes memory. Or we're playing a musical instrument. You know it's. I play a couple of instruments and it was awful To begin with. It's still, you know, moderately awful, but better. But you know it's painful doing that, and now I don't think about what my fingers are doing or what my hands are doing. It's, it's automated because I learned each one of those component steps Well, and so we want to teach practical skills at that level, but also the general process. Have put some effort into foundational work. Do small things well, and big things will tend to kick. Take care of themselves.
Speaker 1:Now, what if you have a kid who doesn't want to do the small things? Well, I mean, I think about my son loves athletics and I'm like bro, if once you learn how to dribble and make a layup like you're gonna be unstoppable because you're fast, athletic, whatever, and he's like I just want to shoot. Yeah, I just want to make deep shots, like how, how to help a kid realize that the repetition matters.
Speaker 2:Well, you don't have to have them necessarily realized that the repetition matters. You just have to get them to do the repetition Well how do I do that?
Speaker 1:The?
Speaker 2:act is the act the same way you do anything else, right? So this is an example of what we talked about, I think, last time was you know, is you having the long-term analog parent view, you looking into the future and saying it's gonna be so much better for you If you do this? But he doesn't care about that because that's not now. What's rewarding right now is to shoot a basket, make a basket Mm-hmm. So what that means is, of course, I want you to shoot a basket and make a basket, and you're gonna get the opportunity to do that right after you. Give me five minutes of dribbling Right right after you get so and then, and then, the dribbling on dribbling is broccoli.
Speaker 2:The shooting is ice cream.
Speaker 1:Right, and what is and what does that look like? To encourage and cheer on Each moment of that?
Speaker 2:yeah, and you realize that but don't expect him to get that connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's not old enough. He doesn't see that far ahead. It's not now.
Speaker 1:Well, there you go. So Schedules, procedures, traditions. Let's hit schedules first.
Speaker 2:So schedules is the. You know when we do things and your, your home doesn't need to operate like a boot camp, but routine should be. I Don't know routine.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was brilliant right in town.
Speaker 2:Folks, routines should be routine and so for Older kids it's, you know, generally not that difficult. You have a calendar in the house somewhere the kids are referring to it, whatever talk or two, or younger kids it, who don't really have a good grasp on time or dates or whatever.
Speaker 2:It will tend to be more. What is the order of things? Okay, okay, we've all got on our pajamas, now we're gonna brush our teeth and after that We'll read a story, say our prayers and go to bed. Right, so you're orienting them to time, but that's giving a structure to things. And then you try to repeat those schedules on a regular basis and in the same way, routines of driving a car, playing an instrument, get to be just habitual. They stop thinking about them and then just doing them, and you can train bigger chunks of behavior.
Speaker 1:Right, you can learn how to spin that car. And what are they called a donut? You can do donuts in the parking lot now Sure maybe not. Do you do donuts in the parking lot? Not anymore. No, oh, he did, folks.
Speaker 2:I grew up with cars with rear-wheel drive, much better equipped for the golden age of cars.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned time together is also part of the schedule.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know People will talk about you know, quality time with your kids, whatever. I'm sure you want to make quality time where you can't, but there's also no substitute for quantity of time Spending time with your kids, and a lot of the households I know that are filled with younger kids or even you know somewhat older kids. You're five, seven, nine, you start to have outside activities, all of those. They get busy. A lot of your meals come, you know, through a window and a paper bag and you're going two things together, but you're not necessarily doing things together.
Speaker 2:And so the old saying is the most valuable gift you can give to someone is your time, because it's the one thing nobody can get more of. And for a lot of families I know, if it doesn't get scheduled, it ain't happening. So that means you know Taco Tuesday or game night, or you know we'd always do movie night on Sundays or whatever it is, but those things get scheduled. It's not. Oh, we might be doing this, or, if you know, if everything works out, we're going to do that. Those things become priorities. You find time to do things with your children, not just schedule things for your children, and in essence, what you're saying to them is hey, you're valuable because I'm willing to spend this resource that I have a limited amount of with you nobody else outside of our family.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I find this also when we schedule time together. It's kind of like when I was a teacher. If I routinely communicate with my parents in the good and the bad, if I routinely if I send out an email saying here's what we did in class and it was great and Max, sam and Sarah worked on this project and we saw it If I give more of those positives, then when the negative hits, they're like oh well, but the teacher's for me and the more quality time I have with my kids, there's also instruction and learning and as well as fun with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you're you're, you're teaching the ideas about values, but it also gives you a chance to express important ideas outside of disciplinary kinds of settings. Right, you don't want all of your teaching to be built around discipline, so you get to talk about those things and the topics that come up during the time that you're playing the card game or more board game or whatever you're doing, or themes that come up when you're doing movie night or whatever. You get to express your values in ways that they will pay attention to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so put it on the calendar. Folks mark your calendar for those times together. How about times apart? Okay?
Speaker 2:So time together is really important. But you also don't want to give your kids the idea that they're at the center of the universe. They're not, and as sooner they get that idea, the better for everybody involved. If they think that you're going to devote all of your time, or the majority of your time, to them, then their expectation will be that that's the treatment they get from other adults, and it's. It won't be so.
Speaker 2:Very early on you want to start training kids to learn how to take care of some of their own interests, how to keep themselves occupied and entertained. Even kids as young as a couple of years old can start to spend a few minutes on their own and should. And then you know you give them an opportunity to develop self-regulating skills, self-entertainment, all of that. And when that happens, you gradually extend the amount of time and, as best always, if you're leaving kids on their own for a while, if you go, check on them rather than waiting for them to come check on you, okay, if they're coming to check on you, most likely that's going to be motivated by a little bit of anxiety or uncertainty Is dad still there? I'm going to go right, and if you check on them, then you're just reminding me yeah, I'm still here, I'm still present, I'm still taking care of you. But also you have the opportunity to potentially you know train them that dad could be looking at me at any moment.
Speaker 1:Yes, I want to be careful about what I'm doing here, right? Yeah, so my dad, my mom, sees me, even when we have time apart, but it's important for them to have that time apart and become independent. If the parents are always hovering and driving that, then it's reinforcing. The kid is the center of the universe, which is not going to be true in the classroom, it's not going to be true in their employment. So, once again, parents, you're looking down the road, but that's not how you're communicating to your kid. You're communicating through your actions. Now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if the kid comes in, interrupts you for no reason you know reason that it's like hey, you're bothering me, go play. And you get them used to the idea that you know, oh, parents have, you know, lives here as well, and you're still exerting some sort of more generalized control or supervision over that process. Right, Right, if the kids hurt or in need or something, obviously you respond to them, but you want them to begin to learn exactly as you suggested. You know that life doesn't revolve around you.
Speaker 1:So positive discipline with our schedules now and creating a safe harbor with our schedules. How about with our procedures?
Speaker 2:Okay, so sort of second, or to the extent that schedules are the when things happen, procedures are how things happen right, and the more routine you are in the you know just like. Think about how much of your life is consumed with just mundane junk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, most of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right. So it's like I'm putting gas in the car, I'm buying groceries, I'm cooking meals, I'm you know, and people say different versions of this, but, like 90% of success in life is just showing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, Just be there, do what you're supposed to do when you're supposed to do it, and the better you are at doing that, by the way, the more actual free time you have at some point, the less surprised you are by other events. So, having regular ways to do things, putting your car keys and your your billfold in the same place. When we came in today, I had a jacket on. I took the keys out of my pant pocket and put them in my jacket pocket. I do that every single time I go somewhere, because then I won't forget my jacket. I can't leave without my car keys and if they're in my jacket pocket. So I have a routine to do that. When I get home, I will take my keys out of the pocket and put them on a hook, Something like that. I've been doing this for about 10 years to learn how to do this, but I never waste time looking for my keys or my billfold because they go in the same place all the time.
Speaker 1:There you go. An example of this there's there's a prophetic show, a comedy called New Girl. Let me explain how it was prophetic. There was an episode where they called it the Biden effect, the Joe Biden effect. And they're like what does that mean? So this girl was trying to win the man and they said do the Joe Biden effect? And she's like what does that mean? And they said just be there, just be there. Like when he's going to get a drink, be there. When he's going to get food, be there. And this was before Joe Biden was president, and so it was like it was humorous?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I was thinking about something completely different.
Speaker 1:It was humorous at the time and, whatever your thoughts are on Joe Biden, it's like, well, he has been there and he's lasted for a long time and he's all the way to presidency, and so there's like, as, as that is humorous, but there is still that value of like practicing those proper techniques over time will create successful results.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know the idea is to develop habits, right? So if it's like when you come in, you put your book bag here, you get out your stuff, you put your shoes there, you do right, you're transitioning into this new environment. I don't want to ask you tomorrow morning where your book bag might be. We already know. And you start with those sort of incremental things in the same way as you started the steps of driving a car or playing an instrument, pretty soon you've got those in in the context of parenting. What this means is, eventually you get to bigger procedures like how to behave in public, how to disagree appropriately, how to assert yourself, how to accept no for an answer, right.
Speaker 2:Those more complex social skills are built on the idea that we do foundational skills. You know, if you, if you start teaching your kid to just put their dirty dish in the sink before you know, after they leave the table, then you know the next step is rinse it off and put it in the dishwasher. And then you know I've got little grandkids and they don't even think about it at my house. They just they get it. You know, can I be excused? Yes, they rinse off their sink, they put it in the dish and put it in the sink.
Speaker 1:And this creates even more opportunities to also praise and encourage that kid, yep. And it's like hey, thanks, yep.
Speaker 2:Thanks for doing that Way to go. Yeah, so the? I guess the thing that this raises to me is the. You know, everybody, at one point or another, has heard the saying practice makes perfect. It's a lie.
Speaker 1:Oh hot, take, Practice makes perfect is a lie.
Speaker 2:Practice makes whatever you practice. Oh Right, Practice being disorganized and chaotic. You will be disorganized and chaotic.
Speaker 1:If you practice being lazy, you'll be a slob for eternity. Yep, well, yeah, the last lecture.
Speaker 2:So you either invest the time at the beginning to develop structures and skills and that pays off later on, or you continue to battle not having those things and you expend that energy over time and there's always that sense of I'm not quite sure about anything. I'm not quite sure about anything and that tends to breed, if not full blown anxiety, just kind of discomfort with how life operates. So when we're teaching skills to kids like those, we're teaching procedures and just thinking about especially younger kids, how we're teaching those things, there's a term that we would use called chaining, which is, you know, we connect behaviors and I use the example of setting a table. So one way to approach that is the parent does everything but the last step, right, everything is down. You put down the silverware, here's where the knives and forks go, here's where the spoons go. And when they've got that routine down, then it's like, okay, they do that step and the previous step, they put down the plates and the knives and forks and the spoons. Then they put down the placements of the forks and the knives.
Speaker 2:So you're gradually adding more steps to that as the original steps become more automated and then pretty soon you can just say set the table, and they know what that is because all of the steps have been learned independently and now I've gathered together into this bigger skill. So that's a practical example, but it's exactly the same thing that applies to how to behave in a restaurant, right? We do these few steps and we pause and remind you on the way in the door about what that means, what I'm going to expect from you in here, and then we gradually add more responsibility and as they get ahold of that, then you can just say, okay, we're in public, now you know what that means, and it implies a certain range of behaviors.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Okay. So this really gives us opportunity to give that positive discipline in our everyday life and to encourage as we go. And more and more opportunities to encourage will reinforce to that child that doing the right thing is worth it and chaining, and then pretty soon they're doing big things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you start small and build. I mean so. An additional advantage, as you pointed out earlier, is gives you lots of opportunities to pile on the praise.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Hey, great job. You did that really well. You've done great with that. Let's add this part in. And it's not just, you know, like putting forks down or vacuuming or whatever. That's not what you're really training. You're training breaking a bigger task into smaller components. You're training how to cooperate with a group of people to do those kind of things. So there's lots of stuff being taught within those things, but also that sense of order, predictability, safe harbor, calm, security.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So we've talked about schedules, procedures, let's get into traditions.
Speaker 2:Okay, so in my mind, traditions are those things that are kind of like schedules, but on a less frequent basis, right, I think of schedules as more like daily sorts of routine things that we do. So things like you know big events like birthdays and you know weddings and all of those kind of things are obvious examples. But you know, every week we go to church, that's just a thing we do, and on you know this particular holiday, this is what we do. We have a way of approaching that. We tend to maybe wear different clothes, we eat different foods, we do different things, but our focus is on the continuity of the family, right?
Speaker 2:This is what our family has done over time Every year, or even if it's only, you know, every month, or even if it's traditionally Taco Tuesday, then that's a thing that's important. This is what we do, and they don't think about it, and so that we talked earlier about, you know, helping kids extend the timeline and how they think about the future.
Speaker 2:This plugs them into the continuity of the family. And then you start talking about bigger events where bigger units of the family, more extended family, get together. That gives them a place in time and as a unit of the family, as within the church, all of those kind of things that anchors them in a way to a bigger organization, a bigger part of life.
Speaker 1:Right. So you want your kid to value these things. Get it on the schedule and then make a routine and make it a tradition. So for me it's like I want my kids to have faith as a value and so, with that, regular church attendance matters to us as a family and so if sports start to get scheduled on Sunday mornings, we're going to put church over those and we're going to make those decisions so that they can become traditions, they can become regular on our schedule. But also I think back to my childhood and one of my favorite traditions, oddly enough, was after the last day of school my mom would bring us to Godfather's Pizza. We have those here in Omaha, we had them in Green Bay grown up too, the original to the Omaha.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in Green Bay there was a Godfather's that the middle section was like up a step and it was so cool. It was like can we eat in the middle section? And my mom would say yes, and we'd get to eat at Godfather's after the last day of school. And it's funny that I like look back on that fondly because Godfather's is some of you might be like the best pizza ever. It's fine, like it's good. It's not great, but for in my memory bank that's like a tradition that mattered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but when I was a kid, my dad, for whatever reason, decided that we needed to have a particular kind of Christmas tree, and so he'd go, we'd get a tree, and then he had this thing that hooked up to the vacuum cleaner somehow and mixed these things together and sprayed fake snow on the tree they flocking the Christmas tree and it smelled and it was messy. Do it in the garage and then drag it up the stairs and it'd be, you know, stuff would fall all over and it was really messy and kind of a pain and I miss it, right. So it's because that was like this is going to happen every year and it seemed to me at the time unnecessarily effortful. But this is just like. This is the thing that we do and this is a thing that our family does, and sort of sort of placed us within that context of time. So we, you know, when we're talking about schedules and procedures, we're talking about sort of the narrative of a life. Yes, day to day kind of stuff. Traditions are the punctuation of life, right?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:This is where we pause a little bit. In this other kind of stuff, we just kind of recognize where we are. What's happened since the last time we did this tradition and, you know, gets kids away from that kind of you know. What we talked about is digital thinking that now, not now thinking and puts them in a longer term, bigger, broader context.
Speaker 1:So this could be weekly, this could be monthly, this could be holidays, could be annual birthdays, so, but to help get that sense of place and continuity, it also can be in the ways that we dress the food that we eat, the flocking of the trees, and I like that. You said that your, your father, flocked it because otherwise it'd be careful with this one, a mother flocking tree, and you don't want that, although mother would have done that grade two. But how about this? Life isn't always so simple. Tragedies happen, things are lost, someone may pass, families may split.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So now what?
Speaker 2:So now, all the more important that you have established those things, that you've established that save harbour, right, because now you're into the storms and life happens and you get dragged out of the safe harbour, and so I'm always particularly interested and concerned about what happens in families that separate or there's death or there's whatever, and it's extraordinarily disruptive, obviously, when somebody important to you passes or leaves for whatever reason. Thank you, okay, you know kids in that situation are inclined to fear more loss, right? This has already happened to me. What if this parent leaves too? Is this parent going to leave me or die or whatever? And those are the places where being able to pull back in and be reassured by those things is really important. So it's generally best if, when disruptive things happen, as quickly as possible, you get back to routine life, because there's a lot of reassurance in that right. Things have gotten rough, things have gotten stormy, but they're still safe harbor here. I'm still going to be able to back up and reestablish my life and live. Life goes forward.
Speaker 1:Right, and so when you take it back to real life, it's not ignoring what's just gone on. You really have to face up to that, and it may be done in different ways through counseling, obviously, through open discussion, clear communication, to care personally for the people around you while also challenging directly the challenges going on. But like, don't take months off of school and work.
Speaker 2:No, and if you come out of chaos into chaos, right, it's not going to be good. So all this time that you're investing in these things, that's not like. Again, I think I said this before it's not like your home should run like a military camp or whatever, it's just like have some sense of routine, some sense of order, do as much as you can with that, build what you can. There's much more reassurance in doing things than there is in kind of verbal responses to chaotic times.
Speaker 1:So we had. Step one of positive discipline was to act like a grownup, and step two was cultivate the comb. Right Was that? Oh no. Step two is build a safe harbor. Part of that is cultivating the comb. So when we come back for the next episode, we're going to talk about step three. Give people a little taste of what step three is going to be about what their appetite Next time we're going to talk about developing expectations and parents.
Speaker 2:Most parents have expectations, but that doesn't always mean that they're clear or organized about their expectations and, more often still, it doesn't mean that they have communicated those expectations clearly to their kids. And when that's true, that sets up the stage for conflict.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is something I struggle with is having routine. I'm not a very consistent person, and so I'm excited to learn more about how to set up and properly communicate expectations so that my kids can get on the same page with me.
Speaker 2:Well, lucky for you. We're going to talk about that next time.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, we'll join us next time for another parenting podcast. Well then, thank you for jumping in and learning how to parent well with Dr Tim. It's a pleasure to be with you. Pleasure is mine and listening universe. We'll see you next time.