Beyond Sunday

Giving Regularly: Trading Control for Obedience

• King of Kings Church

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Dina, Pastor Seth and Tyler, break down three core truths drawn from Matthew 6, 19, and 25: money reveals our loves, obedience is the antidote to control, and generosity habits reshape who we become. 

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Thanks for listening!

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the King of Kings podcast, where we dive a little bit deeper into our message series and see what we're taking Beyond Sunday. My name is Dina Newsom, and I have two amazing guests today. Go ahead and introduce yourselves, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_01:

You really oversold this. Like people are Amazing!

SPEAKER_00:

You're amazing!

SPEAKER_01:

Spider-Man is amazing. Uh I'm Seth Lit campus director. You're at the mediocre. Like, what are you doing? I'm mediocre man. I'm out of all the superheroes.

unknown:

Mediocre man.

SPEAKER_03:

My name is Tyler Rolfson, campus director at Fremont.

SPEAKER_00:

And singer extraordinaire. We were just disgusting and disgusting. Disgusting. We were just disgusting. I'll try to make my words work today. So I don't know if you guys know this, but today is National Candy Day. Yes. National Candy Day, celebrated so soon after Halloween. I feel like it's about the point where everyone's sick of candy right now. That this is an odd time to have it. But my question for you is what's your favorite candy? What's your least favorite candy? Two-parter.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So I mean, I feel like this is so trite, but like you just can't top a Reese's peanut butter cup. Um, I don't know if you guys agree with that, but that's my take. And then I'm not a big coconut fan. And so is it is it mounds and almond joy that have coconuts? Those are so good.

SPEAKER_00:

Sometimes you feel like a nut.

SPEAKER_02:

Sometimes you don't.

SPEAKER_03:

Almond Joy's got nuts.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, but's got nuts.

SPEAKER_02:

You don't feel like I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm just gonna say Dina is the one singing right now. But no, I just I'm not a big fan of coconut. And so if if I had to pick a candy to not choose, it'd be those two.

unknown:

All right.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So I do appreciate a good Reese's peanut butter cup. And like you blend it in a culverse concrete mixer. Amen. Vanilla, very good. Uh, but here's my favorite, and it's kind of like a niche or niche, depending upon how bougie or fancy it might be. Uh, whenever you get those school fundraiser candy bars that are caramel-filled milk chocolate bars, there is something about those specific kinds of caramel-filled bars. They're just that is my view of the marriage feast of the lamb that happens here and now before eternity. So that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, do you think that those go bad? Because I think I have about a dozen of those in the back of my fridge that my son sold for some school fundraiser over a year ago.

SPEAKER_01:

So I will say this let us bring those to the next Beyond Sunday podcast. I will eat them on air and then we'll see what happens. We'll find out. That would not be my least favorite candy, though, even though it was a year old. So here's my least favorite candy. There is, I believe, 100 only pieces of this candy. It's the peanut butter kind of candies that are wrapped in only orange paper or black paper. And usually only folks who are over a certain age hand those out at trick-or-treating. Oh, yeah. And it's the same hundred pieces all throughout the world that just gets recycled from Halloween to Halloween.

SPEAKER_00:

Because no one eats them. They just pass them along.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a very scarce resource in our beloved land. Yeah. The uh laws of supply and demand do not affect the consumption of this can. It's like when you would go trick-or-treating and someone would give you the popcorn balls that no one would ever eat. They would just go into a bucket where dads and moms would dad and mom tax whatever was in that bucket, except for that, and those that other orange and black wrapped candies. And then the same mom and dad would just add laffy taffy to that for the next year. And then just on unsuspecting trick-or-treaters, they would just like give a king-size bar and like all 10 of them would go in the same thing.

SPEAKER_03:

So year after year, these candies get sprinkled throughout the neighborhood until they find their way back to the original house. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

And then the world ends and Jesus comes back. And that's our eschatology, folks.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. I'm my hands down favorite candy is haribo gummy bears. And it's got to be haribo. And I don't even know if that's how you say it. I say haribo. I don't know. I say haribo. Sounds like hair beau.

SPEAKER_03:

You are the host, Nina. You can say whatever you know, but I say goes.

SPEAKER_00:

Those are my favorite. My second favorite is a very close second. Are we whispering? I don't know. I feel like I shouldn't have a second. Like it's cheating, but it's milk duds.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, that's a good choice.

SPEAKER_00:

I never buy milk duds. I will buy gummy bears for myself on occasion. I never buy milk duds because they only come in like the box, like the movie theater-sized box. I will not eat all of those. But at Halloween, they come in the little tiny box where you only get two or three that are always stuck together as one. And my granddaughter remembers they're my favorite. So when she goes trick-or-treating, she comes and brings me all the yellow boxes.

SPEAKER_03:

That is true love, right there.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. It's amazing. My least favorite, whoppers.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm with you. They're not great.

SPEAKER_00:

I just, I know. And no one should hand them out at Halloween. Children do not like them. The parents may like them, but they no one needs them. It's just a chalky mess.

SPEAKER_03:

I bet you could make a really great trade with a nine-year-old who is looking to get rid of some haribo gummy bear packs. And then you're like, exactly. You're right. Like was it with oh the whoppers, yes. So you have the whoppers, they have the haribos trade, win-win.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you for sharing your candy delights with us today. I feel like we always end up talking about food on here, and I don't intend it to be that way. This is not the Beyond Food, Beyond Sunday food podcast. That's a whole nother one. All right. So we are in week five. Am I correct? Week five of the Giving Challenge. We've only got one more week after this. And this week we are talking about trading control for obedience. And Pastor Zach Zender preached a great message again. If you have not, uh, were not able to be in a service on Sunday, go ahead and check that out in our app or online. What are you guys taking beyond Sunday from this week five of the giving challenge?

SPEAKER_03:

Um Yeah, the the scripture, Zach didn't reference it. Well, he he did it in kind of a veiled reference, but it really stuck with me. Um Seth helped me out. Is it Matthew? Is it Matthew 25, Parable of the Talents, where Jesus says, whoever has been um, if you're entrusted with little, faithful with a little, entrusted with much. Does that sound right to you? The what you said, yes. The reference, I I can't remember specific.

SPEAKER_00:

Go back and listen to last week's podcast, because I referenced to that then, but I don't remember.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Anyway, but that the, you know, we Zach was talking about habits and building generosity habits. And he specifically talked about how um it's it's one thing to have one-time moments of generosity, and it's another thing to develop the the habit to really strengthen that muscle for the long term. And and I was I was just kind of left with that impression of like the the little or the much that the Lord entrusts to us is is often just a reflection of, well, God, have I been faithful with what you've given me now? Um and and there we are. What what do we have right here? Matthew 25. Bingo, you nailed it.

SPEAKER_01:

I was trying to pass you that so that you could just pass it off as you knew it.

SPEAKER_03:

No, no, Seth, you deserve full credit for pulling up the Bible reference. Um But yeah, and so just like the the idea of um wherever you're at, building that, building that habit, strengthening that muscle. I had a um a pastor uh when I was living in Texas for college, and he he talked about giving uh on a Wednesday night service. And he said, here's the thing, guys, um it it it's it's the right thing to do for you guys to start practicing a biblical tithe. It's not because the church needs your money. I think Zach even said that on Sunday at one point. He's like, you know, the reality is if you guys even are working right now, you're making$7.25 an hour working 10 hours a week the library, right? Like the church, the church's bottom line is not going to be moved by you giving 10%. But it's that same principle of if you start doing the habit now, when the Lord entrusts you with more, you are going to be faithful with more.

SPEAKER_01:

So for me, what would to be taking beyond Sunday was like I'm a huge Indiana Jones fan. So when he started with that illustration, I was very thankful because I know that I know the first three movies, front to back, side, you know, like that is my jam. But it made me think of something that as I read through the scriptures, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought that about this before, but uh, when he's talking about at the beginning of the message, you know, we're kind of rooting out idols here. We're trying to find the hidden idols that are in your heart, and money is gonna reveal what those hidden idols are. And uh, so the saying that I've thought through is you are what you worship. And so what you're not gonna kneel down and like put your hands up and down over money, but what are you thinking about? What is your anxiety going towards? Your lack of money or your wanting to gain more money. Uh, but you actually see this happening throughout the scriptures. So you are what you worship. And what is it that God's people are called when they uh are perpetually um worshiping false idols, whatever those idols might be? On the one hand, you are what you worship and they worship a golden calf. So no wonder why it is that the Old Testament consistently uh refers to God's people in those moments as you stiff-necked people. Well, what else is gonna be a stiff-necked thing? It's gonna be a bull, it's gonna be a cow, it's gonna be oxen that have this giant yoke on their shoulders uh because you are what you worship. And so you kind of take on the thing that you want. And you kind of see that once you start rooting around inside of your heart, you find all of the idols that are there. And now all of a sudden, like you realize how much of the pursuit of that idol determined your identity. And so for me, uh just having a constant reminder that yes, that is true in my sinfulness, but in Christ, I am something far more valuable than the pursuit of these things that are temporary. So that's what I'm thinking beyond Sunday.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I really liked where he talked a little bit about the Israelites. And I I find the Israelites and the whole um their departure from Egypt and everything that followed, they're idiots and they're whiny, whiny babies. And so are we. I know, but that's what I sit there and I read it, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you just got out of slavery and you're already complaining. Oh my gosh, God's giving you manna from heaven and you're whining about this. And then I think, oh gosh, is does God look at us and think of that because, oh my gosh, I just helped you with this and now you're complaining about this. And it's just very, it's such a twin perspective for me to read about it and to be judgy, judgy of them. And then to think, oh, that is exactly me. That is exactly what I'm doing, the complaining about things. But I just I appreciate bringing it up again. And in this context of where they are turning to an idol and forgetting about the God who literally is feeding them each day and guiding them through the wilderness. Um, that it's okay, am I remembering him then when I'm turning away or when I'm feeling the slightest discomfort or anything like that? So I really just appreciated that reminder of I'm a stupid person too, like the Israelites.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you want to hear a really cool stupid person moment in that story? Yes. And so I'm sure you guys have picked up on this. But Moses comes down, sees what's going on, sees that they are like, he goes up there and God says, I will be your God and you'll be my people if, and then he gives the Ten Commandments. And the Ten Commandments are actually the stipulation for a covenant or a contract.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So, number one piece of the contract, you shall have no other gods before me. And what are they doing immediately? So, you know, like he gets up, Moses gets upset, cracks the commandments, and then he like gets after his brother Aaron. He's like, What? What are you serious? And Aaron is like, Well, it just popped out. Like, like they gave all of this gold and everything, and then it just came out this way. Like, come on, man. That so that's to me like the quintessential, like, stupid person moment of like he got called out on it, and there's no one to blame but himself. And he just comes up with this four-year-old like understanding of like, I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_00:

It just fell over on its own.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. I didn't break it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's great.

SPEAKER_03:

Dina, can I ask you a question that potentially will embarrass me?

SPEAKER_00:

Will it will embarrass you? And that's well, sure, you can ask me something that will embarrass you.

SPEAKER_03:

I think I've seen Raiders of the Lost Ark once, but it's been a while. That's embarrassing already.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it's um I didn't even get to the part. It's okay. Seth only claimed the first three, and there's actually five. So I just don't know those ones as well.

unknown:

That's all.

SPEAKER_03:

Anyway, can you can you make the connection for me of what so is there an is there is there an idol that Indiana Jones is searching for? And you were Seth was just dressed up as Indiana Jones on Sweet Sunday. Yeah. So you guys are both pros at this. So take me and any other um people that are ignorant and clearly in need of repentance.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think there's like a double answer here. So like the first answer, the scene that Zach you Zach used is where he's literally looking for this golden idol. And it's not necessarily for the money. He is interested in the history of things. And so, yes, Indiana is not everyone else that's involved. And so it is literally an idol that he's trying to take. And then there's the big exciting scene with the rolling ball and the people that shoot the little things and blah, blah, blah. But the movie is about people that are searching for the Ark of the Covenant, which is this, you know, holy grail that they want to find for all the wrong reasons so they can live forever. And it doesn't turn out so well for them, but yeah, which is a different kind of idol that they're seeking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00:

You should check them out.

SPEAKER_03:

Clearly. Yeah. And I I feel like in my own defense, it was two weeks ago that I was pulling out Back to the Future references from all three movies. And it isn't that kind of the same thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It is the same time frame. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So I'm both I want to embarrass myself, but also I want to defend myself in self-righteousness. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you can you can keep your 80s movie sticker. It's all right. Your 80s movie badge.

SPEAKER_01:

So there's one more part of that scene that I think is really important when you're thinking about rooting out your own idols, right? So, of course, Indiana Jones is not trying to get the idol for himself. He loves the idea of the history that it tells of humanity and the archaeology of it because he teaches archaeology classes and everything. So he but he still risks his life to get this uh this little idol. And of course, like you said, arrows are shot at him and the giant rolling ball almost rolls over him. He gets out of that temple where it was housed, stumbles, and then his nemesis takes it away from him. And I think that, like, for me, that's one of the most insightful parts of it is as you're chasing an idol, you might grab it for a short time or whatever it is. But because we're so finite and so sinful, there's always going to be someone else out there working harder for the idol that you're trying to dedicate your life towards. And so for me, that's like that little piece of the story. I was like, oh man, that that hits me hard because how often do I just orient my life in a way that's not Christ-like and it will go away? That fleeting happiness or whatever it might be, your fulfillment gone within just a short amount of time.

SPEAKER_03:

So here's my you mentioned the um the point. I think this is Zach's first point, right? That that money is uh money exposes or reveals what you truly treasure. And um he mentioned all the suscripts subscriptions, right? Um that we uh I think they even then then the then the production team like show like an Apple TV, like of all the of all the all the apps that we subscribe to. I'm like, oh, how ironic is this that that same weekend, um, you know, so we have YouTube TV, and that was so Dis Disney. I know you're a big T Disney fan, um, but potentially in Disney's greed, they are they are withholding. Exactly. And so Disney is um they they're not as of I don't know who knows when this if the if this um dispute will be solved by the time this podcast airs. But and as as far as I last knew, is that Disney was not allowing any of their programs on YouTube TV as of like Friday of last week. So no ABC, no none of the ESPN networks. Like as we're getting into a college football weekend. And I was like, oh, that's a it's so it's so dumb. But it's the same thing that's like just as we can like from the outside see the dumbness of the Israelites, when we're on the inside of it, we feel so self-justified. And like when something is removed, that is another great reveal of an idol. Like if you are really feeling it, and like it sounds so dumb, but like I was like feeling it on Saturday. I'm like, man, now I only have 10 college football games to watch instead of 16. But it reveals where your idols are. Yes. And in a in a way that can maybe take a few steps to get there. But it's like ultimately, it is a really good thing when God, in his grace, reveals to us what is taking his place.

SPEAKER_00:

Just to wrap up the Indiana discussion, number three is the best movie. I would agree with you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So if you haven't watched them, you can watch at least to number three.

SPEAKER_01:

But you have to watch it in the right order. Yes, you do have to watch it. Okay. Anyways, let's get back to Jesus. All right.

SPEAKER_00:

How about we talk about God? Yeah. So Zach asked a very poignant question that I want to ask you. And he basically asked, What does your money reveal about you? What would you guys say is true for you in your own life?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my goodness. When he said that, I was sitting right next to Melinda and I was like, We eat a lot of food. There's seven people in our family. When we look at our expenses, that's what it is. Uh, but it's not like we're just eating rice and beans either. So I mean, a lot of it has to do with uh, yeah, you can justify just about any expense. And it's so easy to justify food expenses. But when you actually look at what it is, it exposes that, you know, maybe we could be a maybe we could eat more of those black and orange wrapped old peanut butter things and just help with the world of all hundreds of things.

SPEAKER_04:

I'll bring some whoppers to your house to it.

SPEAKER_01:

But it really does, you know, illustrate that even a good thing like provision, like food, can be something that can be motivated or it can be exposed as an idol.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I was thinking back to a sermon that I preached earlier this year in Connecticut, where we're in Matthew 6, where this is Jesus saying, you know, don't be anxious about your life. And um the the commentary that I read said that our our temptation, not even our temptation, our reality as Americans, is that we turn our our um wants into our needs, and we turn our luxuries into our wants. And so it's like we just kind of shift everything over to where it's like the things that are actually quite luxurious and like they're not bad, but like the the things that people that lived 50 years ago or 100 years ago or live on the other side of the world would never think of having. Like, we think, well, that's like just kind of like a want. It's like an extension. Whereas, like, well, of course we need YouTube TV, couldn't possibly survive without that. And I was just thinking back to that, like, gosh, you know, if I think I look at my budget and how many things are true needs, it's like the things that I justify is like, well, I need that, I need that. And like, no, no, you really don't. And and again, it's all this conversation of like God is not anti-wealth and um all that sort of thing. But it's it's just a good check of like, well, are there some idols here that would be good for me to go through a season of deprivation to then um to then actually know what um to actually know like, man, who is my provider and and what has he given me? And to where I don't I don't mix up my pr my um mix up my priorities.

SPEAKER_01:

That's why I think um I you know different churches observe different things. But I think that's why observing some kind of season of Lent as a reboot every single year to try to remove as much additional or have removed, I should say, a much as much additional dross in our life is incredibly healthy. Uh because Lent often is what can I remove from my life that I've added. And I didn't even really realize that this thing, whatever it is, isn't necessary. And it's somehow distracting me from Christ. And I just find it's always helpful to have a season to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

My money would reveal that I spoil my granddaughters too much.

SPEAKER_01:

Even the best of things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. I think they need it, and Nana needs to buy it for them.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, you're a Nana?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Nana, yeah. Grandma sounds too old. I didn't see it as like a Mimaw either. So yeah, I really wanted Mee Maw. I really liked that. Yeah. My daughter said no. What I really one of my best friends is her grandchildren call her queenie, and I was going for that, but my daughter said no to that too.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, kingy sounds weird. Like I'm never gonna ask for this one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so Nana, I'm Nana. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. All right. So one of the other points that Zach made was that real transformation happens when generosity becomes a habit. How did that hit you? Or how do you find that that has played out in your life?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, uh the the kind of the daily devotionals associated with the Giving Challenge kind of focus a lot on habits. Um and so I Atomic Habits by James Clear is never is never a book I've read, but I feel like I've listened to enough on podcasts and heard it referenced in sermons and articles that I feel like I've kind of read it. I don't know if you've had those before, Seth.

SPEAKER_01:

Particularly that book.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and just the it both really, it's just kind of like psychology and neuroscience kind of affirming what what the Bible has known all along. And Zach's been doing a lot in this series, in that um actually our our will, our willpower is very, is very little to be to accomplish the kinds of things we want to do. And so I think he says it look here. Yeah, 40% of our daily life is defined by automatic habits, the things that we just do because our our system is conditioned to it. Um and so if we're going to experience what the quote said, if you're gonna experience transformation, right? Then it it doesn't require just a moment. It does require like, well, what does it look like to build a habit? And I think what I appreciated, Zach acknowledged this. He's like, this is actually probably the most challenging ask I'm inviting our campuses into. Is, you know, for to do a to do a um a one-time blessing of gift cards where it's or a one-time give a gift that like will will bring you blessing, bring someone else blessing. It's a one-time thing. But a habit is something that is ongoing and you don't see an end to it. You don't say, well, I'm gonna give for a little bit and then see how it goes. But no, we're actually gonna try and make this a regular thing. Um, Pastor Eugene Peterson uh passed away a year or two ago, and his his famous line was a a long obedience in the same direction. And that's really where transformation happens.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Zach said, a generous moment does not make a generous person. That I that stuck with me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I just think about it in terms of generosity is kind of like conditioning your spirit or your soul to do the things that like you could have to condition your body to do if you're gonna work out or if you're gonna establish good habits. So uh like five months ago, um maybe even a little bit, no, right when we moved. So it was right at the beginning of June, uh, got an accountability partner, and we said that we're gonna read through the entirety of the scriptures from Genesis through Revelation in six months. And motivation will make you say, that sounds like a good idea. But systems and actually setting ourselves up to succeed were were, we were gonna be accountability partners. So there was a system to check in to make sure that it was gonna be an ongoing habit. But then I had to look at my life and I had to remove the things that would get in the way of developing that habit. So I deleted off of my phone all social media. And so, like, it doesn't mean I deleted my accounts, it just means I don't have it on my phone. Is that why my friend request has been sitting for four months, Seth? No. Sorry. For real. Like, I'm sure there I probably have a billion, you know, not because I'm important, but you move to a new place and then people make friend requests and then they just sit there because I really don't do too much on it. To all the Millard campus, Pastor Seth loves you. He really does. Yeah. But anyway, you have to remove certain things so that the system can work. And then I had to set notifications on my phone every morning at the same time to remind me to do it. And then on my car ride, after I drop my son off at school, before I get here to work, that's my time. So, like all of those systems get set up so that like conditions are right, so that my flesh doesn't take over and that I continue to meet this goal. And I think it's gonna be the same thing for something blessed and sanctified, like generosity. In order to do that, we've got to go through a reboot where we are stripping a bunch of stuff away. The scripture is uh seeing to it that the spirit moves our hearts to be exposed to all the problems that we have, to remove those things that need to be removed, like deleting apps. And we have to have the accountability of a great group of Christian people that were supporting each other. And we actually have to put that in a rhythm of worship on Sundays and connect groups on Wednesdays and doing daily studies in uh the scriptures with the giving challenge. So I think that is a hundred percent accurate because it addresses our flesh, but then it also sets us up to succeed in the spirit. So yeah, generosity is something we got to work on.

SPEAKER_03:

Dean, I have a question for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, so at the end of Zach's message, he listed like four or five or six kind of things you could do, right? And so we talked about like a blessing fund, that sort of thing. You seem like the kind of person that you heard one of those and like you really latched on to. Is was there one that you really latched on to?

SPEAKER_00:

Giving one to two percent more. That is a challenge. I was like, oh, like I kind of get set in my, I'm very routine, especially in things like giving or bills or like those financial things. I like set and steady. And I was like, oh, like I kind of hit my mark and I do look at it each year, like if my income or expenses dramatically change. But I was like, I don't really push myself to how much can I increase this. So that was the one that jumped out at me. And I was like, oh, I could probably do that. And like Zach said, I probably wouldn't even really notice in the day to day or the week to week or the month to month. But over time, what would that look like? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I really love that too. Cause it's yeah, the difference between a 10 and 11%, right, is very marginal. But then over time, right?

SPEAKER_00:

The difference between 10 and 20%. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um that's consistent obedience in the same direction.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So I love that quote from Eugene Peterson.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so when Zach got into the middle of his message, he was talking about from Matthew 19 the story of the generous ruler, and he spoke about three truths, three truths that kind of come from this story. And I just want to hear your thoughts on each one of them. The first one was that money exposes what we truly treasure. How does that resonate with you? You kind of mentioned it already, Tyler.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. The um, did you say the generous ruler?

SPEAKER_00:

The yes. Is that oh, that's what I have written down.

SPEAKER_03:

He was the furthest thing from it.

SPEAKER_00:

You can tell I was a little um I was too into the generosity thing when I was taking my notes.

SPEAKER_03:

In Dina's defense, she's being charitable to the to the rich young man.

SPEAKER_00:

There you go.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um, I the the I think the the biggest point, and I think Zach credited Pastor Tim Keller with this point, is that he said that um he thought that money is what people most treasure. And then and then when Keller changed that, Zach's like, oh, I'm gonna go with that. And it's totally right, is that it it's it's simply a a revealer or an exposer of what we actually of actually what we actually treasure. And so if you're wondering, if you're out there listener, wondering, man, what we what what am I valuing? What could be a potential idol? Yeah, just look at your credit card statement, look at your bank account, kind of see where your money, what was the Andy Stanley quote? Do it, do the rhythm with the rhythm.

SPEAKER_01:

Gotta be knowing where your money's going. Something to that effect. With the southern drawl, even that was the worst Andy Stanley accent. Sorry, Andy. We're we're old friends.

SPEAKER_02:

I would say I bet Andy's I bet Andy's the listener to the Beyonce podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. I'm sure he is.

SPEAKER_01:

He and Louis will text me later on today to be like, come on.

SPEAKER_00:

No. And our listenership just went up from five to seven.

SPEAKER_03:

Um yeah. And so if to be able to look at, okay, where actually is my money going, I would also add to that where your time is going. Like they reveal what your priorities are and where your potential idols are. Zach put a lot of emphasis on subscriptions. But yeah, it might be on entertainment. It might be on like shopping for things that you don't actually need. Um, it it might be it might be on like just misplaced priorities, um, but it exposes what what is actually under the surface.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I totally see that. Particularly like when I think of the rich family ruler, yes, money can be a revealer of these things. But I think your time coupled with your money do that. And I think that's where a lot of parents need to check their hearts and their schedule with their kids because I think their kids become their idol, not because their kid is like worthy of worship, but more so they want a different experience for their kid than they have for themselves. So they've got such a wound that becomes their idol that they then put their child in the place of the the ultimate focus of their life. And I mean, I think who is going to correct that person for for loving their kid so much. And yet, even a good thing can be warped to be an you know, like a focus of worship.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I really like Zach talked about you need to recognize and then replace. Like that was the things he said to recognize where it is or where you're stumbling or where your idols are and then replace it with something better. That's what really jumped out at me. All right. Truth number two is obedience is the antidote to control. How did that hit you?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, for me, control is something I'm always seeking. And uh anxiety comes from not having like confirmed that thing and not having it in my hands. And so, and I'm not saying like hypothetically, listener, this is no, I'm saying me personally, control and anxiety and fear all go hand in hand. And uh just giving that all up and saying, Lord Jesus, I'm obedient to whatever your call is on this life. And my view of it is to go to the right, and you say to go to the left, my heart is gonna want to go to right every single time. But obedience to you means even though I'm afraid of what's gonna happen in my life if I don't go right, and even though I'm nervous and I'm anxious about if I don't go right, because I might be able to anticipate those things better. If I go left, there's a bunch of questions that I have here. But if I go left, the one question I don't have is are you gonna be there? Whereas if I go right, he will be present, but he may not be present in grace. If I go left, I know what kind of presence I can anticipate being in in him. And so for me, that is a big revealer of control and obedience. It's not saying, and the quote is not saying, if you are obedient, then you have the favor of God. It's if you are obedient, you are coming from the point of an obedient heart already that has been changed by the gospel. And that is far more powerful and it's more illustrative of a life in Jesus than trying to seek after the control and being God of your own life to begin with. So I uh to me, that was one of the most impactful points that was made.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there's such a strong gospel hook when we think about obedience. And Zach brought up the idea of surrender, which immediately takes us to you know, Garden of Gethsemane, where you know, talk about control, right? Control means is that you you you what you will gets done. And Jesus is the one who says, you know, Father, if it's be possible, take this cup from me. Nevertheless, not what I will, but what you will, let your will be done. And um yeah, all the way back at the beginning, Adam and Eve, Genesis 3, what was the temptation um that you would be like God, control. And they disobeyed Jesus, on the other hand, different garden, different garden, he did obey. And and so we find ourselves baptized in Christ, that Jesus' obedience has made a way for us to be found in this place of grace with God. And like, like Seth said, now on the other side of the cross and resurrection, now the Lord is shaping us and molding us to be the obedient kinds of people that don't need to give in to that kind of fleshy temptation to control, control, control, but to live out our identity in Christ and live freely.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there's two points that he, Zach said that I wrote down, and one is to obey is to release control and surrender. And that's something honestly I struggle with. I want to keep one hand on the steering wheel or but God, just like you're talking about the left and the right. Well, can't we go a little bit to the left? How about the middle? Just go down the middle. Want to bargain, argue. But then the other thing he said is obedience dethrones idols not by managing them, but by surrendering them. And I was like, okay, that's just knocking your idols out. Like when you're willing to just let go, they're just gonna be gone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And like Zach really emphasized this. It bears repeating obedience leads your emotions. If you're waiting for yourself to feel obedient, you're never gonna get there. But instead, it's like, no, I I know this is what God is asking me to do. And I know it's the I don't remember the left direction was the correct direction. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Like the metaphor. He couldn't have put the right way as the right direction, but no, that's there's sheep and there's goats. There you go, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um I uh detracted myself. Um but yeah, the the idea of dethroning idols, giving up control, um, and and choosing obedience before you feel it and letting your feelings follow.

unknown:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

And especially in light of giving, where he talked about you don't have to wait to be emotionally moved. You know that this is what God wants you to do. Not because, like you kind of mentioned, not because God needs your money. He doesn't need your money, he wants your heart, but because this is what he tells us, you know. But you have to do it logically, not just wait for the emotions.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. There is a beautiful story that actually is what we're talking about. And it's towards the end of Genesis, I think it's like Genesis 37, 37 or 39, where uh Jacob finds out that his family has carried idols with them. And he doesn't wait for like, um, well, we'll go through some time and you know, we'll talk about it. He just, the moment that he finds it out, he actually goes and he gathers up all the idols of his household. And then he goes and he puts them underneath a terebinth tree, and then the Lord removes that from their family, and they go from that point on to being a totally different kind of family as they follow him. And I just think that that's a beautiful story because Jacob and his family were followers of the one true God before that. And yet they still had idols that needed to be rooted out. And I think it's the same thing for us too, is that I would assume that the five to seven listeners that are here for the VN Study podcast are followers of the Lord, uh, with Andy Stanley and Louis Giggle. Uh but that also means that for us, we're gonna have some rooting out to do and we're gonna have to find some idols. And there's a wonderful terebinth tree. I don't know what that is, but I'm sure there's one around here somewhere that needs to be a repository for all those idols that we start, we have started finding out are exposed by our lack of generosity and our hunting after money and everything else that's there.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. So the third truth that Zach talked about is generosity habits reshape our hearts. How does that speak to you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, the habit really is the key word there. Um and even just thinking about what we just talked about in terms of um terebinth trees?

SPEAKER_01:

Is there a bridge to terebinthia?

SPEAKER_03:

How did you know, Seth? Um But you know, Seth, you mentioned the the habit that you and your friend were holding each other, you're holding yourself accountable to for reading, reading through the scriptures and all the systems you built for that. There were probably many days where you weren't feeling it, but the habit was built regardless. Um and then I'd be curious to ask where where has the feeling and where what's the emotional journey been? Because didn't you say earlier, I don't know if it was on the podcast or pre-like you just finished the old testament?

SPEAKER_01:

Just finished it like two days ago. And seriously, it was 146 straight days or whatever of being in the word. And that that's the very point that you're talking to is that depend whatever it is, whether it's you're praying with the Lord every day or you're prioritizing worship every week, whatever it is, uh, you will find that your motivation will always break down, but it's discipline and systems that will always prop you up because there are things that are outside of you that pick you up when the inside of you has failed.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And so the I hope what you on the other side is hearing is that regardless of the habit you're looking to cultivate, in this series, we're talking about habits of generosity, is that it does require these systems that are beyond just how you're feeling, and certainly beyond, like, wow, I was really inspired by this message. Um, but to dig into your budget and your bank account and to look at what is our current percentage and what would it look for us to go from a go from a five to a six percent, or what what could could we jump to a to a tithe? Or there's probably some someone listening here that probably could and maybe should be looking at their their kind of legacy beyond, you know, into what is what is giving look like beyond this life. You know, at the end of um uh each of our um services, we we have a a slide that shows of all of our campuses that Pastor Greg has has developed kind of what's called our giving ladder, where kind of wherever you're at, even if this is your first time here, you can take a step onto another rung of the ladder. Maybe you've never made a first-time gift, or maybe you're looking to make a regular gift or jump up to a percentage, or starting to say no to some things in order to say yes more, yes and yes more to the things of God and a sacrificial gift or legacy. Um, all of these are habits of generosity that ultimately do the kind of transforming formative work within us that we become more and more like Jesus.

SPEAKER_01:

I think what's great about that is like usually a ladder, you have this view of like, and I'm going up and up and up. Like, and if you give rung number one, then you get closer to heaven and then you get rung number two. That is definitely not it. It's just saying sometimes you have to take steps when it comes to growing in your sanctification. Uh, sometimes you have to take time to build the right systems that work for you. And so it's not like a matter of if you climb high enough on the ladder, you're closer to Jesus. I mean, I would hope that nobody within our tradition of the faith would would ever teach something like that. I mean, because with Jacob and the ladder and his vision, interestingly enough, nothing goes up the ladder or the staircase. The only things that are seen are coming down that ladder or down that staircase. So, you know, scripturally you don't teach that. But sometimes you do need time to be discipled and to grow. And I think that's what, okay, one gift. I could give one gift, I can give a gift card. That's exercising one element of generosity. But as I pursue generosity and I see that this is something that the Lord is encouraging, I kind of want to see where he's gonna lead me further than that. And it's gonna take some time to get there. The spirit can work in the moment and take me from zero to 60. But more often than not, you'll find that the spirit is gonna take time. And uh, if long-term change is gonna happen, it's usually going to take long-term work.

SPEAKER_00:

I like Zach said, and I think it was from one of the books that he was uh quoting you don't meet former givers. You don't meet the people that be like, oh, well, I used to give, but now I've decided the selfish life is for me. That's how he phrased it. And I really liked that. You do find that niche for it in your life and then continue to cultivate it. It never completely goes away. I would even say when you guys were talking about the ladder, there are times where you maybe have to take a step back on the ladder. I know I experienced many years ago my husband lost his job and was out of work for four months, and we were reevaluating all of our expenses, including what we were giving to at that time. And I felt such shame that we were decreasing what we were giving to the church at that time. But then we were able to renew that once he did have employment again and we were more secure, and then it was something that we could continue to work our way up. Um, the other thing I really like is uh Zach mentioned that money is a terrible master, but it makes a terrific servant. Yeah, that either money can control you or you can control it. A lot of people have the attitude that money controls us, that it's powerful. It is powerful, but it's not the most powerful.

SPEAKER_01:

And it is powerful. Yeah. But that power can be channeled towards something that's powerfully good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Zach at one point said it's powerful, it's not evil. Like yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And with the story of the rich young ruler, it's powerful. And it moved his heart away from following Jesus. Uh but it's also powerful in that how many neighbors uh could have been loved as a result of that and could at least open the opportunity to have a conversation of where did this generosity come from? Oh, it came from Jesus. So yeah, it has a power, uh, but it's like anything that's inanimate. It in and of itself is neither good nor bad. How it's used is usually how it's good or bad.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. So as we wrap up today, what are your final takeaways from this week five of the Giving Challenge?

SPEAKER_01:

Number one, uh TR over here needs to watch some Indiana Jones. I think that's that's the biggest piece for me.

SPEAKER_03:

Sorry, Leah. I can't watch the kids tonight.

SPEAKER_02:

Seth and Dina says I need to watch a movie, a whole trilogy, actually. Actually, there's five.

SPEAKER_01:

Plus, there's a series called the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00:

Four four and five aren't as good. If you just get to three, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Five is better than four.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but what are we what are we taking beyond Sunday?

SPEAKER_00:

I really like Zach talked about, and I know this is a little snippet of a preview of research he's doing for a future message series because we get the behind-the-scenes looks, but he talked about the 12 steps, and he said, he said a quote from um the people who were creating this whole process, and they said, We admitted we were powerless over our deepest problems, that our lives had become unmanageable. And I thought that is getting to the point of surrender. And we're we we were talking about letting go and surrendering and obeying, you know, and I just thought that really summed it up that we want to be able to choose that, but sometimes we got to be knocked to our knees first in order to realize how unmanageable it is and to actually turn that over.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that is the first step, right? Admit you have a problem. And so I think it's easy to admit that when it comes to our stuff, we have a problem. We have an idol.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah. My the final takeaway, the kind of theme verse for the whole series out of Matthew 6, uh, for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. You guys were just talking about the power, the money, money has power. And I'm like, man, the the power that would have for us to direct our hearts towards more and more of being like Jesus and living and giving like Jesus. Um, that again, we're not, we're not waiting for um the feelings to come, but actually we're gonna develop the habits um to do that long obedience, gotta start somewhere in the same direction. Um, and then see where God takes us.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you guys so much for being here today. Um, we are gonna wrap up with week six this coming Sunday of the Giving Challenge. And then we'll be moving on to a new series coming that this is exciting. Yeah, yeah. Um, we're plus, we're just getting close to Christmas. Christmas is right around the corner, and I'm excited for I love Christmas. I love Christmas celebration. I love Jesus. I'm glad you brought that in there. I love baby Jesus.

SPEAKER_01:

We were starting to go towards elf, but then you brought us back to the star.

SPEAKER_00:

I love smiling. It's my favorite. I love that too. But until this next week, when we can talk about week six, the final week of the giving challenge as we wrap this up. Let's keep living our faith beyond Sunday.

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