Game On — Pokémon

Peter, Pastor Seth, and Chad kick off the Game On series with a look at Pokémon and the book of Esther, exploring what it means to find your identity in Christ. They unpack how God works through ordinary people, even in difficult circumstances, and why living as who He created you to be changes everything.

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Transcript

Guest Host Update And Introductions

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the podcast that doesn't happen on Sunday. It happens Beyond Sunday. I am your guest host, Peter Bay, as Dina is out with the flu. Or where is she? Does anyone know?

SPEAKER_01 0:18

I think she's getting training in Lincoln.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Oh, she's getting training.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Well, at first I thought Dina's voice got a lot lower all of a sudden. That was a little concerning.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Get better soon, Dina. We miss you. And with uh with me today, I have two illustrious guests. Guest guests. And uh go ahead, introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Go ahead, bud. You go first. I'm Chad Kelly. I'm the director of student ministries here at our Millard campus.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Wait a second. Something has changed.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

What?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

You're the director of student ministries?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

So I used to be the director, or excuse me, the student ministry intern. And as of a couple weeks ago, or whenever that happened, I'm now the director of student ministry.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Yeah, it was a lot of preparation, work, and prayer that moved you from one thing to the other. So congratulations, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

So he's colloquized. He is. What does that mean, Sliff? Um, well, he did a circle. Yeah, he put on the sacred undergarments.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

And no.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah. Dude, this is come on, you can't talk about that. Well, I am talking about a different religion altogether. You're describing Mormonism. Yeah. Uh no, he has not transitioned to a different theology. Nope. That's great. In fact, uh, he was actually um certified uh that he is competent, like he understands the teachings of the scriptures and the leadership of Christ uh well enough, where our entire church body endorses that uh he can be a representative as a uh director of Christian education, as a director of student ministries, representing our church body, but also faithfully teaching the scriptures in our church here and leading that with all of our students.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

And so, Chad, congratulations

Chad’s Colloquy And Teaching Faithfully

SPEAKER_02 1:56

on uh being colloquize.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

How stressful was it? Oh, it was kind of crazy. So, yeah, it was an hour and a half Zoom interview where they just grilled me with all sorts of questions and I I prepared a list of answers prior, and they just drilled me on holes in my arguments for an hour and a half. What? And the first question they asked were like, All right, define the Trinity as if you were talking to a student.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Without being a heretic. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah, so I brought in like the Lutheran satire video of modalism, partialism, all the fun things.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

And which by the way, if you haven't seen it, for those who are listening, have you seen oh it's good. I don't think I have. So it's two Irish twins that are animated.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Oh, I have seen those Irish twins.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah, they they do one on the Trinity and herit heresies within that. It was with St. Nick, right? Or no, uh St. Patrick. Yeah. It was St. Patrick. Patrick. That's modalism Patrick. I'll have to check it out. That's funny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

I I really hope that you did that impersonation during your colloquy interview.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

I I did not, yeah. I thought that'd be un or distasteful. But whatever.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

But what we did to be Kooth is before he sat down to do his Zoom video interview, we took a bunch of very impressive books and we put them right behind him to imply that like he read every single, and he probably has read most of them, but like there were just like tomes of books piled up behind him, just so like brilliant, they would get this idea. Book of Concord, Augsburg Confession, what else? Bottoms of the wheel.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah, well, not so Seth is letting me borrow that book right now as I'm slowly getting through it. Yeah, and I referred to it in my interview. And they're in there at the end, they're like, wow, well, we can see you're you're working through some texts and you're you're still further furthering your education, like which yeah, it's been great to learn about. But so it helped me that hey, A, he borrowed let me borrow it, and B, I got to utilize it in the interview.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

All right, all right. So if I for ever have to do an interview like this for SP, I shouldn't have my like action figures up behind me.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

No, do that, but just have other very impressive books. Like have Ultimate Warrior on top of the impressive books.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

It's got to be a myriad of skills they can see behind you.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah, brilliant stuff.

Chocolate Chip Cookies And Accidents

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Well, today is National Chocolate Chip Cookie Day. What? And did you know that the chocolate chip cookie was an accidental invention? Really?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

It sure was. You know what I do know?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Tell me.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

You knew that it was chocolate chip cookie day, and I see zero chocolate chip cookies here.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

I don't see any either.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yeah, well, good point.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

And you withheld them from our listeners. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

But I you know what I don't want to withhold from our listeners? What's that? The story of the accidental finding of the chocolate chip cookie.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Me neither. Because I just looked this up three minutes ago. Expert status. Yes. And so this woman who will go nameless, she has a name, I don't remember it. Okay. Uh Mrs. Tollhouse. Yeah, she was crushing the cookie making back then. And she was making these butter drop cookies, but she ran out of her baker's chocolate. And so she's like, I'll just chop up some semi-sweet, throw it in there, it'll work fine. But the difference is this baker chocolate goes into the dough, melds in. Yeah. Whereas semi-sweet does not, as we all know, because we eat chocolate chip cookies all the time now. And they the chocolate remains in gooey little morsels, pockets, tidsels.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

You aim your bite based on the chip quantity and and distribution. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Now, here's a question. If you think it's a chocolate chocolate chip cookie and it's oatmeal raisin, what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Oh, I eat that. That's my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Oh, that's your favorite.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Well, it's it's it's up there. Top molasses chewy cookies. Those are those are peak for me. And then after that, you're dissing chocolate chip cookies on their day. No, I'm just saying I have a priority list here. Molasses?

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Oatmeal raisin? That's above chocolate chip. Yes. Oatmeal raisin? You're happy when you mistakenly grab a chocolate chip, but it's actually an oatmeal raisin. Yes.

unknown 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

How will you, Chad? I mean, I'm a little, I'm a little disappointed, but then it's like.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I mean, it's what's with you disappointed in me for liking it.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

No, I'm disappointed in the bite that I get when I get a raisin instead of a chocolate chip. But then it's like it's in the cookie trays, and that's what's left. You're like, oh, yes, there's chocolate chip cookies left. Take a bite, and you get the chewy, mushy raisin. Oh, that's the that's the best.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

That is one of the few times I'd throw a dessert against a wall. It feels like deception.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Can you throw it towards me next time?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

I would absolutely I enjoy the oatmeal part of the cookie. I don't quite enjoy the raisin part of the cookie. So we need to try an oatmeal chocolate chip cookie. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Isn't that what monster is? Is like just a bunch of stuff in the house.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Oh, probably.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah. Well, funny story. There's a student in our student ministry. She likes bakes cookies, like basically crumble cookie styles for just a ton of them. Who's this? Uh Claudia Krigbaum? Well, I need to meet this gal. Oh, she is awesome. Um, but she told me the other day that she can make like monster cookies, she can make fancy, fancy, fancy cookies, but she can't do a chocolate chip. She cannot do a chocolate chip cookie.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Well, she probably could, but not up to her liking. Right. Well, yeah, but she it's like crazy. What's her last name again? Krigbaum. Krigbaum. All right.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

What relationship is this to the Olivia that I know? The sister. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

The sister, the Olivia Krigbaum, the Claudia Krigbaum.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

All right, Kigbaum.

Pokemon Stories And Cultural Staying Power

SPEAKER_01 7:00

I can make a transition because this Sunday, Pastor Greg was talking about Pokemon, but he was talking about Esther. And he said to everybody, if you say this one specific sentence, your campus director will give you a Pokemon card. Yep. At that very moment, since I was sitting in front, which is our student takeover area, I was sitting right next to Josh. Olivia leans over across four different people and she goes, I was chosen before I was seen. Where's my Pokemon card? I was like, later. But, anyways, that brings us to Esther for today.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Absolutely. Yeah, and you mentioned Pokemon as well. So before we get into Esther, tell me about your Pokemon experiences.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

All right. I'll let you go, Chad, because this might be a little bit more in your area.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

It's actually not. I've been quite quite lacking in my Pokemon experience. The only Pokemon experience I've never owned a card. The only experience is that we were sitting in line when I was younger with a friend, and he brought all of his Pokemon cards. He had his book and he was flipping through the pages, and I was like, this is a world that I have nothing to know about. Wow. And so I've never had a Pokemon card. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

So I have a completely different experience than Chad. I have probably purchased hundreds of Pokemon cards. I have a Pokemon shirt, but I'm not really a fan of Pokemon. My children are. So like birthdays, they're like, I want Pokemon cards. But now they're teenagers, so they're like, hey Dad, good I have Pokemon cards. Uh they bought me a Pokemon shirt for Christmas one year. I didn't want it. I didn't ask for it, but I wear it all over because hey, it's a really comfortable shirt. It's from the boys. Yep. And they've watched the cartoons, they've watched the movies. Yeah. Sometimes they'll even watch these videos of people like opening them up the packages to show if, like, I spent $3,000 on this one package of 10 cards. Watch me open it because there might be a blah blah blah Garados.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Then there's one worth like $70 and that's all you get.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Yeah, or there's one and that like the pack is worthless. Oh yeah. But they'll watch some of those. So I have like an insider knowledge of Pokemon, but not by choice, I think is the way that I'll put that. So like I don't have any of the cards myself. Uh, I just know the names of the characters by osmosis of being in the same room where my kids are watching it. But that's about it for me. How about you?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah. I think Pokemon's phenomenal. I growing up, I couldn't afford Pokemon cards, and I found two where I was given two, like spares or something like that. My eighth-grade teacher, Mr. L, he knew that I didn't love Pokemon with all my heart. And he was sick of seeing Pokemon cards in the classroom. Did he ban them? No, he brought me up and he made an example. And he said, Let me see what you have here. And he said, Class, pay attention. And I gave him my Pokemon cards and he tore them in half. What? The two cards I had. And I just laughed. I was like, because that was just crazy. And he threw him in the trash. Yeah, he just used me because he knew I didn't really care that much. But I I am in so impressed by the staying power of Pokemon. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

This is its 30th anniversary.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

It's unbelievable. And it is the largest franchise of any entertainment franchise bigger than WWE, Harry Potter, Star Wars. It has gross over $147 billion.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

But just think about it. One of the biggest industries that generates revenue right now, it's not movies, it's not even like TikTok. It's not even YouTube. It's video games. And so it's got the corner on video games, card games, collectibles, yep, merchandising. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

We've been referring to card games, but but the video games is crazy. I've also not ever really messed with it at all. But the amount or Pokemon Go. I have had play played Pokemon Go.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Niantic uh allowed them to get into the app space with Pokemon Go. It became a cultural phenomena. There were people that walked in the traffic because they're paying more attention to Pokemon Go on their phone than they did to the real world. There was even a story, and again, I don't know if this is true or not, but like some dude apparently was trying to catch some kind of Pokemon and walked off a cliff because like he just was so enamored with catching them all that he apparently walked off a cliff. I don't know if that's true, if he lived, if he died, whatever, but and he wasn't like saved by Pikachu or something.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

No, no, Charizard flew him up. Charizard.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

I love all the names of the Pokemon. Oh yeah. Yeah. Squirtle. Mewtwo. Mewtwo. Snubbles. Yeah. They're just they're just great. But this Pokemon is the first game in our Game On series, and it did.

Esther’s Backstory And Exile Context

SPEAKER_02 11:33

It launched us into Esther. Uh, and we were introduced to Esther and found out that we don't know who Esther's mom and dad are. And that she's just living with like cousinslash unc Uncle Mordecai. I've always thought he was Uncle, but the Bible tells cousins, so I'm gonna believe it. But um I've always seen Mordecai as like he's older, would be my guess, or at least he's in a higher position. And but otherwise, Esther is completely orphaned. And so in this early text with Esther, what stood out to you?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Yeah, I mean, I mean to parallel to the story of Pokemon, like you're dropped in this this wilderness with almost nothing to your name. And Esther's here is uh an orphan with I imagine almost nothing to her name, right? And it and it builds the potential for a for a gospel presentation beautifully of what we'll we'll see and we'll walk to in a little bit, but from rags to riches, right? And we're all brought from rags to riches through our sin, through the power of the Holy Spirit, the the gospel, the redeeming grace that Jesus died on the cross and rose from from the dead to save us from everything, and that we can live not as an orphan anymore, but as an adopted, loved child of God.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah, so when it comes to Esther, I think um we don't know a lot about who her mom and dad were, but we have a pretty good idea why they weren't in the picture, and that's one thing that I think it's good to do to know about Esther, just to go into a little bit of a backstory about what's happened to God's people to that point, and that is uh the people of Israel had been incredibly wicked, and so it splits into two kingdoms. The northern kingdom gets like ravaged by a totally different empire, the Assyrian Empire comes in, they take away everybody in the north, leaving, you know, just the South Kingdom, which you know, we have like Jerusalem and Judea and some of those other areas in it. Well, the Assyrians try to take over the southern kingdom as well, but they're not successful. Uh, but there is another group that comes in, the Babylonians, and they begin to take away sections of the kingdom because they overcome the kingdom. So, again, this is an outside group, the Babylonians, uh, with Nebuchadnezzar. So, like for all those Veggie Tales fans, he's the giant pickle or giant cucumber. Yeah, rackshack and baby. There you go. Uh, so Nebuchadnezzar comes in and he takes three different waves of people out of Israel, uh, you know, like completely conquering that whole leftover territory, and he actually just picks them up, plops them into his area, into his country. And so, like, you've got a lot of parents murdered uh during this exile time. So, first wave, you know, anybody who rebels against King Nebuchadnezzar and wants to stay in Israel, they're gonna get murdered. Uh, and so first wave goes. And generally speaking, like if you want to like put a character in some of these waves, you're talking Daniel. Daniel gets taken in the first wave and he gets removed to Babylon. A bunch of people know Daniel and Lion's Den and stuff like that. Second wave comes in, destroys more of that southern kingdom, and takes characters like Ezekiel uh away in that second wave. So, like now, two-thirds of the people have been removed from that southern kingdom of Israel. And again, the whole northern kingdom's gone already. You got a third of people who are left. They come in, uh, they sack Jerusalem, they destroy the temple, and they take the last third of people. So you have a lot of resistance against Babylon. So you have a lot of parents, cousins, uh, and they're gonna be murdered uh because they're stepping up against Nebuchadnezzar and his people. And this is like the context of why we find Esther not in Israel. We find Esther in a totally different country, and we find Esther actually has a different name when she gets there. Um, she's known in two different ways by two different circles. And like Mordecai uh is is like one of the only people she has from her family left because we can only surmise like what happened to the rest of her family. So you're right, we start out, and Esther is Luke Skywalker on Tatooine. Esther is Harry Potter uh at the Dursleys home. Like those are characters that are somewhat based, even if they're not, they don't know it, are very much based off of a character like Esther, who who has an identity, but it's kind of washed and forgotten by the time the story starts.

Grief, Loss, And Ministry Realities

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Well, uh thank you for that context. And I guess is Mordecai is probably similar.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

And so I I don't know enough of either have either of you experienced loss of family.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

No, not nearly to the degree of some families.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

So I would say this, like, yeah, I've I've lost um, you know, grandmas and grandpas and such, and I've lost uncles. My godfather, he died when I was really young, and it was a big part of my life. But one thing that uh you don't really account for when you serve a church is how close you get to people and how many of them pass away, and how close you get to their families, and how you grieve your own loss of that person. So you lose a lot when you're in ministry, but the great blessing of the gospel is uh for most of the families that we're connected with, we're connected because of our faith in Jesus, and um it redefines what it means like when you do lose somebody, but it also redefines who you can connect with in a community after you have lost everybody, like Esther and Mordecai. How about you?

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Yeah, um in my family, I'm I'm very fortunate to have not, I mean, grandparents for sure. Um growing up, uh I've had a handful of friends who have passed. Uh some that I wasn't terribly close with, but I remember in college is uh guy named Bobby Mason in my freshman year college. We played a ton of basketball. Everyone wanted to play. Sophomore year, yeah, it was okay. By my junior year, the runs were down, and there's just not many people were playing open gym. But so Bobby and I played one-on-one all the time. And I was gone on a choir tour, and so Bobby was in the gym just shooting by himself. He has heart failure. And this is a guy who ran like a half marathon off of a dare and just did it and did it well. And so for him to have heart failure was crazy, and there was no one there. And so he died. Um, and I I remembered just like having that survivor's guilt of like I should have been there. When the reality was no, I was wherever I was on choir tour. Um, but the the loss of people that you love, it just stings for so long and it never gets filled. Um, and so I wonder for Esther, I mean, not only is she in a foreign land, but she's in a foreign land where either they or the people prior to or whatever have murdered her family. And now God's calling her into uh the possibility of marrying or joining in on the head of the murder spear.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

And and whether they were murdered or not, that part we don't know. Yeah, they could have died of natural causes, but but what's the most likely scenario with the way that families were treated at that time? Right. Well, yeah,

Vashti, Power, And Esther’s Risk

SPEAKER_01 19:12

you're you're right. Like, how does that feel to be to know what happened to the previous queen? So Queen Vashti was like uh carted out in front of the king and basically told, you know, like, well, just do what I want you to do, and I don't care about you at all. And she said no, and so she was removed, and that's where Esther gets into this part of the story of actually getting introduced to the king.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah, and and uh and Vashti, without getting too uh graphic here, was this the king re requesting her to do lewd things for his guests?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

All right, so we got uh Esther chapter one here, and uh the king requests her presence. Uh he was merry with wine, and they requested that Kring Queen Vashti be brought before the king with her royal crown in order to show the peoples and the princess her beauty, for she was lovely to look at. So basically to show her off. Yeah. And how how do you think that would feel if Peter, if I called you up on stage during worship, I was like, I want to show off my look at my friend Peter's biceps. I think it's different.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

I would be so happy to do that. That's different. But if if you're like, um, yeah, Melinda, or if I were like Carista come up, like, yeah, that would not be a good it wouldn't be honoring.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

No, and it does that is not what's happening here, which is why she refuses so vehemently. I mean, yeah. So this is not like a positive experience for Vashti, and she is removed, and you can only read into, you know, like what that would mean. And then Esther has a different opportunity, but she knows what's been going on, and she knows what fate could belie her if say she wins this beauty pageant of a charade. Like, that doesn't actually mean she gets a W here. Like this just means that she's jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

I I do think that is worth going into, though, because I think a lot of times when people think of Queen Esther, they're like, oh, Rags Sir Richard, she has this opportunity to go from like a a nobody to a somebody. But becoming a somebody had its weight too. It might have been better to be a nobody.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Well, even even in the somebody part of the story, if she doesn't hold that somebody part of the story in a very particular way, which Greg is gonna develop a little bit later and you know, as the sermon series goes, if she doesn't follow the steps that need to be stepped, and that is like there's an approach that she has to make even as the queen to the king, if he has not invited her to speak to him, that if she speaks at a turn, uh he had every right to be able to kill her, even after she was the queen. So yeah, I mean just because she becomes the queen does not necessarily mean this is always a good thing for her.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Okay, so Queen Esther. Prior to Queen Esther, she's Hadassah, and she's a kid whose family's dead has her cousin Mordecai, and that's about it. She's just doing her thing.

Seeing Providence In Dark Seasons

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Um, and then people will talk, but then God provides. But I wonder also, was God not providing originally? So when we are in tough times, Chad, uh, it's easier to see God's providence when the sun comes up. Oh, yeah. How can how can we see God's providence in the other in the other times?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah. We're we're talking on this at about at student nights tomorrow. The idea of of joy in the in the wilderness, of Paul writing Philippians while being in prison, that there's something in our hearts, which is logical that inherently makes us want to subside to the circumstances that are around us. And I imagine for Esther, it was it was an opportunity to say, like, yeah, my parents are dead, my family's dead, I'm in this spot, and I don't know what to do. And to just sit in that. But then on the flip side, you think of uh how can you reframe a situation? And with Jesus, we get to reframe every situation that the darkness and the the power of of the of the enemy doesn't have power over us anymore in the same way. And so I wonder for for Esther how she could have reframed what she was going through, and even in the idea of like, and we can guess that maybe her parents died for trying to stand up against something, or if not that she had the stories and the the people before her that did stand up and ended up getting killed because of it, or stood up and and didn't get killed. But I wonder if if in the darkness of the oppression that she had the opportunity to say, I'm I'm gonna be like them. I'm gonna stand up like the people before me did, and I'm gonna live a different life than I mean because I bet her her friends and family beyond the the those that have passed away were were not in the best frame of of mind and the best space to approach something like that. So I I I wonder what she clung, what she cling to to allow her to take steps that she did.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah, and for the vast majority of people around, uh it the idea was probably more so to stay hidden. Yeah.

Hidden Faith And Split Personas

SPEAKER_02 24:28

And that makes me wonder. Pastor Greg kind of, I was convicted. He he talked about are there areas of life where your faith is hidden. When he talked about that, didn't anything stick out to you guys or either with you or or scenarios that came to mind?

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Well, I think that's it's like a it's a doctrinal thing that our church, you know, like makes a really big difference out of that you're as a whole person right now in a fallen world, you're probably not the person that people see because you're not just the saint that you want other people to see. Uh, and you're also for other people who dwell on the other side of things who just highlight how sinful they are uh and how terrible they are, um you're the you're both. And uh I think it that's like more of a doctrinal way to look at it. But I think if we think about how we define ourselves based off of what we say about ourselves, so like I'm super awesome, uh, or I'm a reject, um, neither one of those actually describes who you are. And what I find is that in my life, I'm far less prone to talk about how awesome I am, and I am far more prone to think repetitively how terrible of a person I am and how much of a failure I am. And rather than looking at like the blessings that the Lord has given me, I am far more likely to ruminate in my head and my heart over how I've screwed things up so royally and how broken I am. And so uh when Greg talked about that, I didn't think of it as what is this hidden sin thing that maybe I have that no one else can see. I thought about it more of like, what is this hidden identity that I've clung to for so long that it's become a part of who I am inside of like in my heart and in my head? And why would I why would I cling to that? Like, what is it that that provides for me? And it provides for me nothing, and yet I still cling to it. So that's what I reacted to.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Yeah, it's interesting how people can feel oddly comfortable or maybe just stuck in their pit of shame. Yeah. Chad, what came to mind for you?

SPEAKER_00 26:43

I mean, I'll go along the same train of thought. I I definitely can be in that too shameful to deserve the love of Jesus. But then at different times I I ping-pong to the opposite extreme of like, oh, I'm too good where I don't need God. I think all of us naturally lean towards one, but in different seasons go between both. And to keep keep on that same same train of thought that how are you representing Jesus and how are you believing that you were made for such a time as this? And I'd wonder with Esther, how how where did she lean? Did she lean like on the queen? Like, do I really need to stoop down almost to that level to do that? Or I'm not good enough. I I can't do that because I don't have what it takes.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah, yeah, and in in Esther's narrative, she had to conceal who she was as a Jew very strongly for a little bit. And and I I wondered with Greg's question, are there times in my life when I conceal who I am as a Christian? And I don't show that. Um, and uh as I examined that, I did think of some like like so I play basketball um three mornings a week, 5 30 a.m. at the JCC. Nice. Yes, the Jewish community center. So shout out Queen Esther. Um but when you're playing basketball with a bunch of men, even though you may see them three days a week, I don't know their last names. Yeah, like I don't even know if their first name is their legal first name or if that's just what I call them. Big dog. Right, right? So very few of them I even know um anything beyond their basketball skill, what they do for a living, any of that. Now I ask a lot of questions and I get to know some of the people. Um, and like one of the guys, Ryan, phenomenal dude, strong Christian guy. He made a joke last week. It didn't land, everyone made fun of him. And it was a little off-color for him. Um, not lewd, but like just a little off-color. And uh so he came in today and very seriously was like, uh, hey man, just because you were there, I felt convicted about the joke I said, and I'm gonna try to be better. And if you hear me do stuff like that, call me out. Um, and I that was one, so honoring that he would say that, but also convicting uh for me as well, because that is like uh two of my my four people are guys at the basketball gym. And I'm like, and that is a spot where I rarely will speak about my faith. I do try to live it out by not scream cussing and Dennis Rodman elbow somebody acting like a jerk on the court.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Um but name is meta world peace, bay.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

I did I that did make me wonder what are the areas of my life where I'm more shy or even concealing about my faith. Oh yeah. And any of those stick out to you too.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Well, it's easy as a Christian to have different personas. And this was me in high school. Like I had my church persona, I had my school persona, I had my sports persona, and each person that I had was was a little bit different, acted a little bit different, said words that the other one wouldn't have said. And praise be to Jesus, I'm not at that extreme anymore, but there's still that a little bit. And even in the the hard part that I'm at of like in church work, of I have my my my work persona, and then I go home, and you'd expect me to be that loving, outgoing person to my neighbors, except I like know two of their names, maybe. I know the people above me because I asked their dog to be quiet every once in a while. But aside from that, like I'm not loving my neighbor. I know the call to love your neighbor isn't just physically your neighbors, but they're also my neighbors, and so that's where I would feel convicted of am I living it in my whole world, or am I being my church work persona and then going home and just being Chad? But like you said, the conviction of like how do those become synonymous be the same.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Yeah, I think one of the biggest moves in spiritual maturity is when you try to take all of those personalities and you start to kind of whittle away the excess performance pieces. Yeah, and you start to live more like the collection of all of those pieces combined that represent the best. Yeah. Uh, and it's hard because it's easier to fall back into the old habits and the old ways to talk. And this is not me coming from a point of, and I am in that position right now. This is coming from me for a position of that's where I aspire to be still. Yeah. But uh, I think it's easier to slide into roles with people because it's easier and more palatable to try to meet their expectations of who you think they want you to be than who you really are because you're scared they're gonna reject you for who you really are. And um, I think rejection and failure and fear that defines our identity so much, and it shouldn't, because we should not have to worry about fear. Uh the scriptures say perfect love casts out fear. And I think part of that perfect love casting out fear is casting out all of these shadows of who you project yourself to be, but you really aren't those people. And I think if people actually got to see who you really are, we're afraid that they wouldn't like us. I actually think that people would like us more if we actually were who we're supposed to be. And you actually see that, like in the character of Esther, she's given more respect and more honor the further along she goes, and the more and more of um hadassah you see with Queen Esther, like part and parcel together, the more influence she has, the more obedience she has, the more faith she has, the more courage she illustrates is when she brings both of those pieces of her identity together.

Chosen Before Seen And Sanctification

SPEAKER_02 33:00

So Hadassah, um, the Jewish name of Queen Esther, she was seen by God before she uh ever even existed, but by the the large masses, not at all. Um, Pastor Craig talked about how we were chosen before we were seen. And um in your life, how does that impact you, that knowledge that God has chosen you even before you were seen?

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Hmm. I'm gonna throw it back to you, Peter.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Yeah. All right, all right. Well, we just took elongated turns, and I don't want people to think that like we are hogging the entire podcast. No, people won't think that.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Um yeah, I Chad, you mentioned something earlier that that stood out to me because I I was a punk all through high school. Not saying that you were, but I was. I'm not saying I wasn't. I definitely was. And uh, and I did well and I got along with my teachers, and it was great. I loved high school, I loved college. Um, but I've mentioned this before. I had a buddy in college who called me out and said, You're a jerk. And that that really helped me to see uh my behavior and how it mattered. Um now even at that point, God knew that he was like, This jerk, I'm gonna I'm gonna put him in church work. And uh I was so uncomfortable. He brings the jerk back to church work. Um, no, but uh it's really cool to see how God claims us as his children and qualifies us through Christ. Um, and it is not our performance or earning that allows us to make an impact. Christ has done it, and because of that, I get to, and even when I don't, it doesn't change the way he sees me. Yeah. And so I'd say that's part of my story for sure, is from a a punk and kind of a jerky kid who just do anything to make people laugh, um, and now like just really trying to tenderize um to not be offensive, but also to because jerks have less impact um for God's kingdom. And so, but God knew that, and uh He knew the work that was He was going to do way before it ever happened.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Well, I'm I'm curious, how'd you get from that to being the guy that people apologize to when they when they take a step out of line, not in their walk with Christ? Like what what was that what was that shift? What was that like?

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Yeah, good question. I mean, that is that's the fruit of the spirit. Yeah. So I believe that the fruit of the spirit is some of the gnarliest stuff that you can ever grow in your life. Uh we we sing funny little songs about it. The fruit of the spirit is loved, you know, and it's like so. I think it's often seen as a fun preschool curriculum, but it is actually like it almost always comes from hardship and from failure and the humility of realizing um that I don't have what it takes, but through Christ I am called. I'm still God's child. Yeah. And uh that fruit of the spirit, then of having joy when you could be frustrated, or having patience when you should be irritated. People see that and and say, I want what they're having because I'm just so irritated right now. Yeah. Uh and I think the Holy Spirit growing that in me over years, just like bashing it over my head. Yeah. I think is what's led to that. And it is just that constant reforming and reshaping that um that we that we endure and because Christ first endured. So the big word is sanctification. And uh and that's an I mean that never stops. Right. Um, so and I and and I I don't know that I have the verbiage to break that down in an easy way. How would you describe sanctification?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Oh, just to be set apart to be made holy. Okay. Uh, and what I love about what you just relayed, especially with the fruits of the spirit, is exactly that process. So if the fruit of the spirit is love, you're going to be in positions where a bunch of people really hate you. And love is not a response to another love. It's not like, oh, you love me, so I'll love you. Love, as we see it in the scriptures, is a response to people that hate us and oppose us. And despite that, we still love them. Uh, joy. You sit in deep grief. You know, somebody dies, and what do you do with that? Well, the Lord is gonna give you something, and that thing is joy, but you're gonna go through the grief part to experience that joy is more than just happiness. Happiness is fleeting. You can spend your whole life chasing after it, but the moment that you have it for a second is the moment it goes away and you recalibrate and you begin to pursue it again. Joy is able to meet you in the worst parts of your life and you have it and it's not something you continue to chase. Uh, peace. Uh I mean that's kind of obvious. Like how many situations do you do you get placed into that test your peace? Uh, but I think that one of the hardest ones to pray for or that people pray for flippantly is patience, because God will answer that prayer almost every time, and he'll answer it by putting you in situations that are gonna test your patience limits. And in all likelihood, he's not gonna put you in this test, but you're gonna fail having patience with people. And so you're gonna realize how patience is a gift and it is a fruit, not something that you've cultivated for yourself. So, like you can go through each one of those fruits of the spirit that you were talking about, and there is a discipleship process. And so, like high school, college, you know, you've shared those stories before that those were like meaningful processes where the Lord is shaping you from the person who you were to the person that you're becoming. And uh here's what I think is cool about that. And it goes back to the you were chosen before you were seen. I don't like to show people projects I'm working on until they're all done. Ah, like I feel really uncomfortable doing my Q2Q sermon run through on Thursdays because it's not the finalized product yet. It's close, but it's not there. I don't want people to see like worship stuff I'm working on until after it's done because I don't want them to see all of the failures that it took to get to that polished product or like that finished thing on the end because you're gonna evaluate me based off of whatever that that complete thing is. Yeah, I want you to judge me based off of what you see, but Jesus works the other way around. He's like, no, no, I knew all of that junk was gonna happen in your life, and I knew what your choices were gonna be. I chose you before you could show me a polished version of yourself, and so I think there was a lot of wisdom in that comment that that Greg had in summarizing the personhood of Esther that she was chosen before she was seen, uh but for us as well. And that's what I actually was really encouraged by, you know, whatever people on the other side of this microphone think about Pokemon. Uh, it was a really good uh move to say, hey, if you'd like one Pokemon card, tell your campus director uh I was chosen before I was seen. And I started the day with 240 Pokemon cards at our three services, and I ended the day with only about 40 cards left. That's phenomenal. Yeah, but that meant that every single little kid, like I had three-year-olds where their parents were teaching them how to say I was chosen before I was seen, uh, say that so they could get a Pokemon card. But now that's going to be something hopefully that they'll remember as time goes on. I had grandmas and grandpas that were saying this uh and reminding themselves about who they are in Christ so they could get a Pokemon card to you know give to their grandkid or something like that. So I I liked that incorporation all throughout.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Yeah.

God’s Calling Before Competence

SPEAKER_02 41:31

So there is also this uh idea of being uh being not God doesn't just call the awesome qualified people, but he qualifies those whom he calls, which is Esther's story as well. And do either of you have a personal story of how God uh did that to you? I have a story about Chad.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Oh, all right, I like it.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

So uh Chad started here a year ago and he started serving the Lord with student ministry, and he did a wonderful job. But he wasn't called yet. Right. The Lord was qualifying him and qualifying him and qualifying him, and uh and now he's called. But what I I mean that's the external view, right? That like he got better and better and better, and now we called him. It's actually the opposite. God put a calling on his life and began working on him and working on him and it purifying him and removing draws from his life. And he's he's not perfect yet, he's close. Uh we're all we've almost got him to the point where he's not he's chipping away. Uh but that's what I actually appreciate about um the way that the Lord worked. Uh what happened on stage, uh, you know, in front of everybody in our church, as we said, he is now officially called to be here. Man, that was just an external uh affirmation of the calling that the Lord put on his life a long time ago. And he called him before he passed his interview, and he put this calling on his life before he proved competency and you know, like Old Testament, New Testament, and doctrine. Um he put this calling on his life well before you know all of the other aspects were were proven. Yeah. Um, but he's also done a good job of proving all of those aspects.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

So that's sweet. Do you uh want to explain Seth's or do you want to talk more about your own?

SPEAKER_00 43:34

I'll kind of share, share a story of kind of not both, but but an external story of I'm I'm imagining a sculptor with a a cube of granite, and the sculptor knows what the granite will become. But I bet if the granite could be personified, it would be like, I'm just a cube. What what am I going to become? And as you take the big corners off and you get the big chisel, get the big chunk. Out, it slowly becomes more of what was initially intended, and we'll never quite get to be perfect as as Seth tried to say that I am, which I promise you I'm not. That's why I left because I know you're not, and you know that I know that. God's always working on us, and we're never that let the goal not be perfection, let the goal not to be that polished art artist piece piece of granite finalized, but let the goal to be get the chunks out of your life. Let the goal to be striving to be what the sculptor's sculpting you to become. Not based off my own effort or not based off the goal of being perfect, but the goal of letting Jesus do his work on me.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

I mean, that's very biblical too, because like the same conversation is had about the potter and the clay. Uh, I mean, I if I remember right, Michelangelo has the same thing to say about the cube uh of marble, I think is what he uses as the example. But there's also a skit guys video, if you remember the skit guys, where they actually talk about the that chisel, I think is what they call it or something like that. And it's you know, removing uh aspects away so that you are in that becoming uh of a disciple of Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Yeah. No, I did a I did a message in college at our student worship night, and I had a our I my pottery professor come on stage with me and he made a pot as I was giving the message. Super cool. Hope I get to do that again sometime. Um and I have one of the pots that he made in my office, so come so come by and see it sometime. But he made it and he made he finished it in the perfect time, and I asked the the crowd, like, hey, what what is this? And they guessed, they said, It's gonna be a soup for a bowl for ramen, it's gonna be this other thing, and they hauled all these guesses, and then he said, Well, I actually wanted it to be a baptistry. I said, Huh, okay. So what he just said deemed all of your guesses val invalid. They mean nothing now. Because what the potters intended it to be, that's what it's gonna become. God has called and will equip all of us to what he's called us to. So let the potter work.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

So

Adoption Through Christ And Hope Chest

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Greg connected um the story of adoption. Uh King of Kings, we have a connection with Hope Chest and uh city of Los Mates, Guatemala, where we have child adoptions. And these kids, most of them have a mom or a dad, and some of them even have both, but we're still adopting them to help provide physical and spiritual uh for all these awesome kids in Los Mates, Guatemala. And so if you have not, um, I would love for each listener to prayerfully consider sponsoring a child. You can go online and you can read a little bit about each um look at their faces and see what they aspire to be when they grow up and um and help support them physically, spiritually. Hope chest is a great job connecting those kids to Jesus and and we send missions to the same um town over and over again so we get to know them as well, which is wonderful. But I wonder final thoughts today, um, your thoughts on on not just the hope chest, but your your thoughts on um adoption through Christ.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

I mean, I'll end it how I started it. We are orphans and Christ deemed us family. And now we get to walk in walk in that as if we've always been family with him and knowing that he loves us so much that he has something in plan for our lives and has a purpose called for to be called for us.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

I completely agree. Um the scriptures say that the Lord placed eternity in their hearts, and it's in mission, it's often talked about like what that means is that every culture has some story, has some way to have a mission person speak the gospel into that, into any culture. There's something there, but that's why I think adoption stories resonate so well with us. That's why that unforeseen hero story, you know, coming out of nothing is so resonates so strongly with so many people. And I think that's because ever since we get got kicked out of Eden, we've always wanted to go home. And I think like we we get a semblance of what home actually feels like from our earthly family, if if you get a good experience. But I still think that there's a part of us that always wants to go home. And to be told that, like, look, let's just call thing what it is. You're an orphan. Uh you don't have a home here, but to be able to say that like there is a part of this story because of the sacrifice of Jesus, where you are adopted now and you have a home. And uh not only are you loved and adopted now, and that's proclaimed over you, uh, he even tells his disciples and his followers he's gonna go play prepare a place for you. He's preparing a home for you. And I think that that's part of the longing that creation has is it yearns to be home and it yearns to be full in Christ.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Right. Well, I mean, I either way, if if someone doesn't have a family like Esther, then it's pretty easy to see, imagine what you could have. And if you did have a great home life and did have a great family, I think it's also pretty easy to say, imagine if you didn't have that.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

Yeah, and whether it's whether it's great or challenging here, it's imperfect.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

And it's messy.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

And God is with us, but until we see him face to face in heaven, it'll be painful. Yeah. Uh a great hymn, the first verse of I'm but a stranger here says this I'm but a stranger here, heaven is my home. Earth is a desert drear, heaven is my home. Danger and sorrow stand round me on every hand. Heaven is my fatherland, heaven is my home. And I think that perspective helps us even while we are here. It helps us to keep going amidst the danger, amidst the challenge. Um, and we're claimed by God. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

And it helps us keep going beyond Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

Beyond Sunday, on to Monday, Tuesday, and forward. And that's all we have for today on Beyond Sunday, taking God's word to the masses. I think is the tagline. All right, get well soon, Dina. Bye.