{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":1.708,"body":"Hey folks, welcome to the DarkHorse"},{"startTime":1.708,"endTime":3.541,"body":"podcast Inside Rail ."},{"startTime":3.958,"endTime":5.75,"body":"I am very excited to have with me"},{"startTime":5.75,"endTime":8.125,"body":"returning guests to DarkHorse, Michael"},{"startTime":8.125,"endTime":10.416,"body":"Shermer, who is the publisher of"},{"startTime":10.416,"endTime":12.625,"body":"Skeptic magazine and the executive"},{"startTime":12.666,"endTime":14.958,"body":"director of the Skeptic Society."},{"startTime":15.833,"endTime":16.916,"body":"Welcome back to DarkHorse."},{"startTime":17.291,"endTime":17.958,"body":"Nice to be back."},{"startTime":17.958,"endTime":18.75,"body":"Nice to see you, bro."},{"startTime":20.458,"endTime":21.0,"body":"Where are you?"},{"startTime":21.166,"endTime":22.791,"body":"Aren't you on some island somewhere now?"},{"startTime":23.458,"endTime":25.5,"body":"I am on a deserted island."},{"startTime":25.833,"endTime":27.0,"body":"Did you buy your own island?"},{"startTime":27.0,"endTime":28.375,"body":"Are you you're not like Epstein with all"},{"startTime":28.375,"endTime":29.708,"body":"that secret money, are you?"},{"startTime":30.0,"endTime":32.833,"body":"Oh my God, no, no, I live on an island."},{"startTime":33.166,"endTime":34.333,"body":"There are thousands of"},{"startTime":34.333,"endTime":35.5,"body":"other people on it too."},{"startTime":36.041,"endTime":38.583,"body":"But anyway, it's lovely"},{"startTime":38.583,"endTime":40.0,"body":"and very inconvenient."},{"startTime":41.791,"endTime":43.0,"body":"So were we able to get"},{"startTime":43.0,"endTime":44.166,"body":"you a copy of the book?"},{"startTime":45.458,"endTime":46.833,"body":"I have it right here."},{"startTime":47.291,"endTime":47.5,"body":"OK."},{"startTime":47.791,"endTime":49.916,"body":"Though I will say I was struck by the"},{"startTime":49.916,"endTime":52.875,"body":"fact that your publisher who sent me the"},{"startTime":52.875,"endTime":56.208,"body":"book has taken a very aggressive stance"},{"startTime":56.208,"endTime":58.708,"body":"on free will in the book that is somewhat"},{"startTime":58.708,"endTime":60.875,"body":"in contradiction to your own perspective."},{"startTime":62.0,"endTime":65.208,"body":"I am assured that this copy is one I"},{"startTime":65.208,"endTime":67.791,"body":"cannot sell, which implies that I"},{"startTime":67.791,"endTime":69.041,"body":"obviously could sell it."},{"startTime":69.375,"endTime":70.916,"body":"Wait, they said you a bound galley?"},{"startTime":70.916,"endTime":72.583,"body":"Well, that's weird because well, maybe"},{"startTime":72.583,"endTime":74.083,"body":"they just didn't get it in time because"},{"startTime":74.083,"endTime":76.125,"body":"the hard copies are now just I just got"},{"startTime":76.125,"endTime":77.333,"body":"mine last couple of days ago."},{"startTime":77.541,"endTime":78.041,"body":"Oh, is that right?"},{"startTime":78.5,"endTime":78.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":78.958,"endTime":79.791,"body":"Well, anyway, I've been"},{"startTime":79.791,"endTime":80.875,"body":"enjoying looking through it."},{"startTime":81.666,"endTime":83.75,"body":"There's a ton for us to talk about here."},{"startTime":83.833,"endTime":87.583,"body":"I don't know how you want to set things"},{"startTime":87.583,"endTime":89.583,"body":"in motion, tell people what your book is"},{"startTime":89.583,"endTime":92.0,"body":"about, but I'm interested in talking"},{"startTime":92.0,"endTime":94.875,"body":"about, of course, religion,"},{"startTime":95.958,"endTime":100.166,"body":"free will and, you know, the central"},{"startTime":100.166,"endTime":102.916,"body":"thesis of your book about truth and why"},{"startTime":102.916,"endTime":104.0,"body":"it still matters and"},{"startTime":104.0,"endTime":105.458,"body":"how to grapple with it."},{"startTime":105.458,"endTime":106.875,"body":"I think those are all good topics."},{"startTime":107.5,"endTime":109.708,"body":"Our first sponsor on this episode of the"},{"startTime":109.708,"endTime":112.0,"body":"DarkHorse Inside Rail  is Crowdhealth."},{"startTime":112.833,"endTime":114.25,"body":"Crowdhealth isn't health insurance."},{"startTime":114.708,"endTime":115.166,"body":"It's better."},{"startTime":115.708,"endTime":117.416,"body":"It's nearly open enrollment, the season"},{"startTime":117.416,"endTime":119.125,"body":"when health insurance companies hope you"},{"startTime":119.125,"endTime":120.958,"body":"will once again blindly sign up for"},{"startTime":120.958,"endTime":121.958,"body":"overpriced premiums"},{"startTime":121.958,"endTime":123.333,"body":"and confusing fine print."},{"startTime":123.583,"endTime":125.25,"body":"We used to do that, but not anymore."},{"startTime":125.75,"endTime":127.041,"body":"Not since finding Crowdhealth."},{"startTime":127.458,"endTime":129.041,"body":"Crowdhealth is a community of people"},{"startTime":129.041,"endTime":130.083,"body":"funding each other's"},{"startTime":130.083,"endTime":131.125,"body":"medical bills directly."},{"startTime":131.541,"endTime":133.708,"body":"No middlemen, no networks, no nonsense."},{"startTime":134.25,"endTime":136.083,"body":"After we left our salary jobs as college"},{"startTime":136.083,"endTime":138.125,"body":"professors, we spent years buying health"},{"startTime":138.125,"endTime":139.083,"body":"insurance in the marketplace."},{"startTime":139.875,"endTime":140.833,"body":"It was confusing,"},{"startTime":140.833,"endTime":142.208,"body":"irritating and very expensive."},{"startTime":142.708,"endTime":144.25,"body":"As a family of four who had health"},{"startTime":144.25,"endTime":146.541,"body":"insurance for emergencies only, we were"},{"startTime":146.541,"endTime":148.166,"body":"paying more than fifteen hundred dollars"},{"startTime":148.166,"endTime":151.125,"body":"a month for a policy with a 17000 dollar"},{"startTime":151.125,"endTime":153.5,"body":"annual deductible to a company that never"},{"startTime":153.5,"endTime":154.541,"body":"answered their phones and"},{"startTime":154.541,"endTime":155.791,"body":"had a website that didn't work."},{"startTime":156.25,"endTime":158.0,"body":"Tens of thousands of dollars paid out for"},{"startTime":158.0,"endTime":159.125,"body":"no benefit whatsoever."},{"startTime":159.958,"endTime":160.708,"body":"We went looking for"},{"startTime":160.708,"endTime":162.583,"body":"alternatives and found Crowdhealth."},{"startTime":163.0,"endTime":164.5,"body":"We've now had two sets of great"},{"startTime":164.5,"endTime":165.958,"body":"experiences with Crowdhealth."},{"startTime":166.291,"endTime":167.916,"body":"When Toby broke his foot in the summer of"},{"startTime":167.916,"endTime":170.291,"body":"2024 and when Heather slipped on 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month."},{"startTime":191.625,"endTime":193.5,"body":"You get access to a team of health bill"},{"startTime":193.5,"endTime":195.916,"body":"negotiators, low cost prescription and"},{"startTime":195.958,"endTime":198.333,"body":"lab testing tools and a database of low"},{"startTime":198.333,"endTime":199.208,"body":"cost high quality"},{"startTime":199.208,"endTime":200.75,"body":"doctors vetted by Crowdhealth."},{"startTime":201.25,"endTime":202.708,"body":"With Crowdhealth, you pay for the little"},{"startTime":202.708,"endTime":203.625,"body":"stuff out of pocket."},{"startTime":204.0,"endTime":205.666,"body":"But for any event that costs more than"},{"startTime":205.666,"endTime":207.958,"body":"five hundred dollars, a diagnosis that"},{"startTime":207.958,"endTime":209.875,"body":"requires ongoing treatment, a pregnancy"},{"startTime":209.875,"endTime":211.958,"body":"or an accident, you pay the first five"},{"startTime":211.958,"endTime":213.125,"body":"hundred and they pay the rest."},{"startTime":213.875,"endTime":215.75,"body":"The system is betting you'll stay stuck"},{"startTime":215.75,"endTime":216.333,"body":"in the same"},{"startTime":216.333,"endTime":218.25,"body":"overpriced, overcomplicated mess."},{"startTime":218.833,"endTime":220.375,"body":"This year, it's even more complicated"},{"startTime":220.375,"endTime":222.291,"body":"because most of the Affordable Care Act"},{"startTime":222.291,"endTime":224.541,"body":"subsidies expire, which means your prices"},{"startTime":224.541,"endTime":225.916,"body":"are going to be even higher."},{"startTime":226.291,"endTime":228.208,"body":"So far, Crowdhealth members have saved"},{"startTime":228.208,"endTime":230.083,"body":"over forty million dollars in health care"},{"startTime":230.083,"endTime":231.375,"body":"expenses because they refuse"},{"startTime":231.375,"endTime":232.666,"body":"to overpay for health care."},{"startTime":233.041,"endTime":233.791,"body":"This open enrollment,"},{"startTime":234.166,"endTime":235.041,"body":"take your power back."},{"startTime":235.625,"endTime":237.625,"body":"Join Crowdhealth to get started today for"},{"startTime":237.625,"endTime":239.291,"body":"ninety nine dollars for your first three"},{"startTime":239.291,"endTime":241.333,"body":"months using the code darkhorse at"},{"startTime":241.333,"endTime":243.5,"body":"joincrowdhealth.com."},{"startTime":243.75,"endTime":244.041,"body":"That's"},{"startTime":244.041,"endTime":246.875,"body":"joincrowdhealth.com code darkhorse."},{"startTime":247.666,"endTime":248.458,"body":"Important reminder,"},{"startTime":249.041,"endTime":250.125,"body":"Crowdhealth is not insurance."},{"startTime":250.833,"endTime":251.166,"body":"Opt out."},{"startTime":251.375,"endTime":252.166,"body":"Take your power back."},{"startTime":252.583,"endTime":253.416,"body":"This is how we win."},{"startTime":253.916,"endTime":255.625,"body":"Joincrowdhealth.com."},{"startTime":256.083,"endTime":258.166,"body":"Our second sponsor is Helix, which makes"},{"startTime":258.166,"endTime":259.791,"body":"truly fantastic mattresses."},{"startTime":260.291,"endTime":261.791,"body":"We've had our Helix mattress for well"},{"startTime":261.791,"endTime":263.916,"body":"over four years now and it continues to"},{"startTime":263.916,"endTime":266.25,"body":"provide amazing sleep just as much as it"},{"startTime":266.25,"endTime":267.583,"body":"did when we first got it."},{"startTime":267.583,"endTime":268.833,"body":"It's firm, which we like."},{"startTime":269.083,"endTime":269.875,"body":"But if you want a soft"},{"startTime":269.875,"endTime":271.208,"body":"mattress, they make those too."},{"startTime":271.708,"endTime":273.416,"body":"It's cooling, it's quiet and it's just"},{"startTime":273.416,"endTime":274.708,"body":"lovely in every regard."},{"startTime":275.041,"endTime":276.25,"body":"Everyone has had bad sleep."},{"startTime":276.666,"endTime":277.625,"body":"Sometimes that's"},{"startTime":277.625,"endTime":278.958,"body":"attributable to modernity."},{"startTime":279.291,"endTime":280.958,"body":"Light shining in your window, the noises"},{"startTime":280.958,"endTime":282.916,"body":"of humanity that you can't shut out, the"},{"startTime":282.916,"endTime":284.708,"body":"turning of your brain, your physiology"},{"startTime":284.708,"endTime":285.833,"body":"that's been mangled by"},{"startTime":285.833,"endTime":287.708,"body":"fake food and pharmaceuticals."},{"startTime":287.875,"endTime":290.0,"body":"All of that contributes to bad sleep, but"},{"startTime":290.0,"endTime":291.291,"body":"so does a bad mattress."},{"startTime":291.875,"endTime":294.25,"body":"Helix makes excellent mattresses, every"},{"startTime":294.25,"endTime":295.583,"body":"one of which combines individually"},{"startTime":295.791,"endTime":297.916,"body":"wrapped steel coils in the base with"},{"startTime":297.916,"endTime":300.041,"body":"premium foam layers on top, providing"},{"startTime":300.125,"endTime":301.583,"body":"excellent support for your spine."},{"startTime":302.041,"endTime":304.541,"body":"Take the Helix sleep quiz online and in"},{"startTime":304.541,"endTime":306.0,"body":"less than two minutes you'll be directed"},{"startTime":306.0,"endTime":307.083,"body":"to which of their many"},{"startTime":307.083,"endTime":308.625,"body":"mattresses is best for you."},{"startTime":308.916,"endTime":309.875,"body":"Do you sleep on your back,"},{"startTime":310.083,"endTime":311.291,"body":"your stomach or your side?"},{"startTime":311.625,"endTime":313.583,"body":"Do you toss and turn or sleep like a log?"},{"startTime":314.291,"endTime":314.833,"body":"Do you prefer a"},{"startTime":314.833,"endTime":316.041,"body":"firmer or softer mattress?"},{"startTime":317.041,"endTime":318.5,"body":"Once you've found your perfect mattress,"},{"startTime":318.5,"endTime":320.833,"body":"you have 120 nights to try it out without"},{"startTime":320.833,"endTime":322.291,"body":"any penalty in the unlikely"},{"startTime":322.291,"endTime":323.75,"body":"event that you don't love it."},{"startTime":324.0,"endTime":326.25,"body":"Helix sleep midnight Lux hybrid mattress"},{"startTime":326.25,"endTime":328.125,"body":"won both Forbes and Wired's"},{"startTime":328.208,"endTime":330.291,"body":"best mattress awards in 2025."},{"startTime":330.833,"endTime":331.583,"body":"It's that good."},{"startTime":332.25,"endTime":334.291,"body":"Helix mattresses are made in America at"},{"startTime":334.291,"endTime":336.083,"body":"their very own manufacturing facility."},{"startTime":336.5,"endTime":338.25,"body":"And unlike many mattresses now on the"},{"startTime":338.25,"endTime":340.416,"body":"market, all of Helix mattresses are a"},{"startTime":340.416,"endTime":342.0,"body":"hundred percent fiberglass free."},{"startTime":343.0,"endTime":344.541,"body":"Helix mattresses are built for human"},{"startTime":344.541,"endTime":345.875,"body":"bodies and built to last."},{"startTime":346.583,"endTime":348.5,"body":"Helix also supports military first"},{"startTime":348.5,"endTime":350.458,"body":"responders, teachers, and students by"},{"startTime":350.458,"endTime":351.708,"body":"giving them a special discount."},{"startTime":352.5,"endTime":354.333,"body":"Everyone we know who has slept on a Helix"},{"startTime":354.333,"endTime":355.458,"body":"mattress raves about it."},{"startTime":355.583,"endTime":355.916,"body":"Seriously."},{"startTime":356.458,"endTime":358.125,"body":"Some family members slept on a Helix"},{"startTime":358.125,"endTime":360.083,"body":"mattress for a few nights, went home and"},{"startTime":360.083,"endTime":361.708,"body":"immediately ordered one for themselves."},{"startTime":362.291,"endTime":363.5,"body":"And Zach Scott wanted his college"},{"startTime":363.5,"endTime":364.583,"body":"apartment, which he loves."},{"startTime":365.583,"endTime":367.333,"body":"Helix just makes fantastic mattresses."},{"startTime":368.333,"endTime":369.916,"body":"We have heard about people having or"},{"startTime":369.916,"endTime":371.958,"body":"directly experienced ourselves better"},{"startTime":372.0,"endTime":374.875,"body":"sleep, less sleep apnea, less back pain,"},{"startTime":375.125,"endTime":376.208,"body":"fewer temperature problems."},{"startTime":377.125,"endTime":380.041,"body":"So go to helixsleep.com slash DarkHorse"},{"startTime":380.041,"endTime":382.458,"body":"for 27% off site wide."},{"startTime":382.875,"endTime":385.583,"body":"That's helixsleep.com slash DarkHorse"},{"startTime":385.583,"endTime":388.75,"body":"for 27% off site wide, exclusive for"},{"startTime":388.75,"endTime":389.708,"body":"listeners of DarkHorse."},{"startTime":390.5,"endTime":391.5,"body":"Make sure you enter our"},{"startTime":391.5,"endTime":392.666,"body":"show name after checkout."},{"startTime":392.666,"endTime":394.958,"body":"So they know we sent you once again."},{"startTime":395.291,"endTime":397.791,"body":"That's helixsleep.com slash DarkHorse"},{"startTime":397.791,"endTime":400.041,"body":"for a seriously comfortable mattress."},{"startTime":400.916,"endTime":404.0,"body":"So why don't you lay out the basic case"},{"startTime":404.0,"endTime":405.666,"body":"and we'll go from there."},{"startTime":406.208,"endTime":406.791,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":406.791,"endTime":407.0,"body":"Thanks."},{"startTime":407.666,"endTime":411.125,"body":"So the idea of the book came from as sort"},{"startTime":411.125,"endTime":413.25,"body":"of a sequel to the conspiracy book, which"},{"startTime":413.25,"endTime":415.375,"body":"is my previous book as more of a general"},{"startTime":415.375,"endTime":416.5,"body":"theory of how we know"},{"startTime":416.5,"endTime":418.958,"body":"anything is true with conspiracies."},{"startTime":419.208,"endTime":421.958,"body":"It was the question is, you know, there"},{"startTime":421.958,"endTime":423.083,"body":"really are conspiracies."},{"startTime":423.083,"endTime":424.25,"body":"So how do you know which conspiracy"},{"startTime":424.25,"endTime":425.75,"body":"theories you should believe or not"},{"startTime":425.75,"endTime":428.0,"body":"believe, which then takes you into"},{"startTime":428.0,"endTime":430.208,"body":"epistemology and how do we know what's"},{"startTime":430.208,"endTime":432.0,"body":"true, how do we decide who"},{"startTime":432.0,"endTime":433.041,"body":"we should believe or not?"},{"startTime":433.041,"endTime":433.458,"body":"And so on."},{"startTime":434.125,"endTime":437.041,"body":"So, so this is really kind of an outline"},{"startTime":437.041,"endTime":438.291,"body":"of how science works,"},{"startTime":439.291,"endTime":441.083,"body":"you know, through peer review and, you"},{"startTime":441.083,"endTime":443.541,"body":"know, the norms and standards of fact"},{"startTime":443.541,"endTime":446.291,"body":"checking and journalism or, you know, the"},{"startTime":446.291,"endTime":447.958,"body":"judicial system and how it determines"},{"startTime":448.041,"endTime":451.291,"body":"truth through an adversarial legal system"},{"startTime":451.291,"endTime":453.0,"body":"where you have to confronting lawyers and"},{"startTime":453.0,"endTime":454.625,"body":"the judge or the jury or"},{"startTime":454.625,"endTime":457.166,"body":"the peer review and so on."},{"startTime":457.166,"endTime":459.791,"body":"So and kind of my general starting point"},{"startTime":459.791,"endTime":461.666,"body":"is, as you know, I'm an atheist, but"},{"startTime":461.666,"endTime":465.208,"body":"whether or not there's a is a omniscient,"},{"startTime":465.208,"endTime":466.583,"body":"omnipotent God, I know one"},{"startTime":466.583,"endTime":467.75,"body":"thing for sure, it's not me."},{"startTime":468.416,"endTime":469.583,"body":"And I also know it's not you."},{"startTime":470.5,"endTime":474.375,"body":"So all of us are beginning with, you"},{"startTime":474.375,"endTime":475.625,"body":"know, what's called fallible ism."},{"startTime":475.625,"endTime":477.5,"body":"You know, I could be wrong, you know, so"},{"startTime":477.5,"endTime":478.166,"body":"I have a whole chapter"},{"startTime":478.166,"endTime":479.208,"body":"on Bayesian reasoning."},{"startTime":479.583,"endTime":482.5,"body":"And so we start with saying, you know,"},{"startTime":482.5,"endTime":484.25,"body":"it's somewhere between one and 99%."},{"startTime":484.833,"endTime":486.75,"body":"You never, you know, Cromwell's rule in"},{"startTime":486.75,"endTime":488.5,"body":"Bayesian reasoning, you never assign a"},{"startTime":488.5,"endTime":491.083,"body":"zero or a one to any proposition just in"},{"startTime":491.083,"endTime":492.958,"body":"case, you know, so, you know,"},{"startTime":492.958,"endTime":494.291,"body":"aliens are here probably 1%."},{"startTime":494.791,"endTime":497.875,"body":"You know, there's a God, maybe 2%, you"},{"startTime":497.875,"endTime":499.291,"body":"know, or just, you know, plate tectonics"},{"startTime":499.291,"endTime":502.208,"body":"is the best explanation for the current"},{"startTime":502.208,"endTime":504.291,"body":"position of the continents."},{"startTime":504.5,"endTime":507.166,"body":"You know, 99% big bang theory, 99%."},{"startTime":507.916,"endTime":509.416,"body":"You know, and then a bunch in between."},{"startTime":509.75,"endTime":512.25,"body":"So that, you know, the"},{"startTime":512.25,"endTime":515.041,"body":"fallible ism, that there is a role for"},{"startTime":516.125,"endTime":518.291,"body":"expertise and authority."},{"startTime":518.875,"endTime":520.916,"body":"Not that you base it entirely on that."},{"startTime":521.125,"endTime":523.166,"body":"But one of the things I discuss in the"},{"startTime":523.166,"endTime":524.75,"body":"book that I've kind of learned over the"},{"startTime":524.75,"endTime":525.875,"body":"last couple of decades,"},{"startTime":525.875,"endTime":528.666,"body":"really, of doing skeptic is how much"},{"startTime":529.791,"endTime":532.291,"body":"we don't really know directly ourselves"},{"startTime":532.291,"endTime":536.5,"body":"and how much we take it on not faith, but"},{"startTime":536.5,"endTime":538.333,"body":"confidence that, you know, the"},{"startTime":538.333,"endTime":539.416,"body":"authorities we trust"},{"startTime":539.416,"endTime":540.625,"body":"usually get it right."},{"startTime":541.0,"endTime":544.0,"body":"So here's an example of my cognitive"},{"startTime":544.0,"endTime":545.666,"body":"psychologist friend at Occidental"},{"startTime":545.75,"endTime":548.5,"body":"College, Andrew Stuhlman, did a famous"},{"startTime":548.5,"endTime":550.291,"body":"study in which he asked mostly college"},{"startTime":550.291,"endTime":551.25,"body":"students, do you accept"},{"startTime":551.25,"endTime":552.458,"body":"Darwin's theory of evolution?"},{"startTime":552.958,"endTime":553.958,"body":"Oh, yeah, yeah, almost all"},{"startTime":553.958,"endTime":555.75,"body":"of them say, yeah, explain it."},{"startTime":556.708,"endTime":558.791,"body":"Oh, well, the giraffe stretches its neck"},{"startTime":558.791,"endTime":560.291,"body":"and the baby giraffes have longer neck."},{"startTime":560.75,"endTime":562.5,"body":"No, that's not it at all."},{"startTime":563.0,"endTime":564.708,"body":"Or then other studies similar to this."},{"startTime":564.75,"endTime":565.333,"body":"You know, are you in"},{"startTime":565.333,"endTime":567.625,"body":"favor of NAFTA or against it?"},{"startTime":567.625,"endTime":569.0,"body":"I'm for it or I'm against it."},{"startTime":569.208,"endTime":569.75,"body":"What is it?"},{"startTime":570.291,"endTime":571.333,"body":"Oh, it's that North"},{"startTime":571.333,"endTime":572.875,"body":"American something trade."},{"startTime":573.291,"endTime":575.0,"body":"I'm not even sure which countries are in"},{"startTime":575.0,"endTime":578.291,"body":"it or what the policies are, but I'm for"},{"startTime":578.291,"endTime":580.208,"body":"it or against it or, you know, so most of"},{"startTime":580.208,"endTime":582.916,"body":"what we proclaim publicly, this is what I"},{"startTime":582.916,"endTime":585.25,"body":"believe we don't really understand it."},{"startTime":585.25,"endTime":587.166,"body":"You know, we're just sort of signaling in"},{"startTime":587.166,"endTime":588.708,"body":"the case of Darwin's theory."},{"startTime":589.25,"endTime":589.875,"body":"Yeah, those scientists"},{"startTime":589.875,"endTime":590.625,"body":"usually get it right."},{"startTime":590.916,"endTime":592.5,"body":"So yeah, I'll just say,"},{"startTime":592.5,"endTime":593.5,"body":"you know, I think it's right."},{"startTime":593.791,"endTime":597.166,"body":"So I want to pause you here because one"},{"startTime":597.166,"endTime":599.375,"body":"of the subjects that we talk about"},{"startTime":599.375,"endTime":601.416,"body":"frequently on DarkHorse is what I call"},{"startTime":601.416,"endTime":604.791,"body":"the Cartesian crisis, which is named"},{"startTime":604.791,"endTime":608.625,"body":"after Descartes, who famously came to"},{"startTime":608.625,"endTime":610.708,"body":"understand that almost everything he"},{"startTime":610.708,"endTime":614.041,"body":"thought that he knew as a fact was in"},{"startTime":614.041,"endTime":615.75,"body":"fact taken on someone's"},{"startTime":615.75,"endTime":618.0,"body":"authority, maybe justifiably so."},{"startTime":618.416,"endTime":621.708,"body":"But that what one can do in life, you"},{"startTime":621.708,"endTime":623.791,"body":"know, rerunning famous experiments in"},{"startTime":623.791,"endTime":625.5,"body":"order to establish for yourself that they"},{"startTime":625.5,"endTime":626.833,"body":"in fact said what we"},{"startTime":626.833,"endTime":629.458,"body":"believe they said never happens."},{"startTime":629.458,"endTime":630.5,"body":"You just don't have enough time."},{"startTime":631.0,"endTime":633.208,"body":"So all of us are forced in order to"},{"startTime":633.208,"endTime":636.25,"body":"function to accept almost everything on a"},{"startTime":636.25,"endTime":639.291,"body":"kind of authority, which then, you know,"},{"startTime":639.291,"endTime":641.708,"body":"if you live in an era where the quality"},{"startTime":641.708,"endTime":644.25,"body":"of that authority is high, it's a very"},{"startTime":644.25,"endTime":646.375,"body":"effective thing to do if the quality of"},{"startTime":646.375,"endTime":647.125,"body":"that authority for"},{"startTime":647.125,"endTime":648.666,"body":"some reason is not high."},{"startTime":649.291,"endTime":651.125,"body":"It's a very dangerous thing to do."},{"startTime":651.541,"endTime":654.333,"body":"And so at one level, I would ask, you"},{"startTime":654.333,"endTime":658.958,"body":"know, I am very much in favor of a world"},{"startTime":658.958,"endTime":662.5,"body":"in which we have systems that allow us to"},{"startTime":662.5,"endTime":666.083,"body":"rely on actual experts to give us the"},{"startTime":666.083,"endTime":671.375,"body":"most well grounded explanation for what"},{"startTime":671.375,"endTime":673.583,"body":"we observe and to help us understand what"},{"startTime":673.583,"endTime":674.666,"body":"the implications of it"},{"startTime":674.666,"endTime":675.666,"body":"are for our behavior."},{"startTime":676.291,"endTime":677.625,"body":"But I don't think we live in that era."},{"startTime":678.166,"endTime":680.25,"body":"I think we live in an era where the"},{"startTime":680.25,"endTime":681.541,"body":"quality of the"},{"startTime":681.541,"endTime":685.125,"body":"expertise is actually appalling."},{"startTime":686.041,"endTime":688.75,"body":"And so let me just say I probably should"},{"startTime":688.75,"endTime":689.541,"body":"have said at the top."},{"startTime":690.291,"endTime":691.833,"body":"One of the things I greatly appreciate"},{"startTime":691.833,"endTime":695.0,"body":"about you, Michael, is that although you"},{"startTime":695.0,"endTime":697.625,"body":"and I I'm sure we agree on more than we"},{"startTime":697.625,"endTime":700.916,"body":"disagree on, but we disagree on some very"},{"startTime":700.916,"endTime":705.958,"body":"substantial issues and I find you"},{"startTime":705.958,"endTime":709.375,"body":"disagreeing with me honorably."},{"startTime":710.833,"endTime":712.333,"body":"It never gets personal."},{"startTime":713.208,"endTime":715.0,"body":"And that is a rare characteristic."},{"startTime":715.0,"endTime":717.208,"body":"It should be common, but it's rare."},{"startTime":717.208,"endTime":718.583,"body":"So anyway, I appreciate you doing that."},{"startTime":719.333,"endTime":720.708,"body":"I think the fundamental thing that we"},{"startTime":720.708,"endTime":725.208,"body":"disagree over is are the experts in"},{"startTime":725.208,"endTime":728.875,"body":"general doing their job in our era or are"},{"startTime":728.875,"endTime":731.041,"body":"they falling down on that job and leaving"},{"startTime":731.041,"endTime":735.916,"body":"us with pseudoscience dressed up as if it"},{"startTime":735.916,"endTime":736.791,"body":"were the real thing?"},{"startTime":737.708,"endTime":739.041,"body":"So anyway, maybe we'll get into that more"},{"startTime":739.041,"endTime":739.666,"body":"later, but I'll let"},{"startTime":739.666,"endTime":740.708,"body":"you continue with your"},{"startTime":741.708,"endTime":743.333,"body":"well, yeah, that's all that's all."},{"startTime":743.333,"endTime":744.166,"body":"I mean, yeah, we can get"},{"startTime":744.166,"endTime":745.208,"body":"into the details of that."},{"startTime":745.5,"endTime":747.625,"body":"You know, with Descartes, he famously"},{"startTime":747.625,"endTime":750.625,"body":"then hit the foundation rock bottom."},{"startTime":750.708,"endTime":752.5,"body":"Well, somebody's asking the"},{"startTime":752.5,"endTime":754.5,"body":"question, what is reality?"},{"startTime":754.708,"endTime":756.041,"body":"So there's a mind here, you"},{"startTime":756.041,"endTime":757.75,"body":"know, that I know that exists."},{"startTime":757.75,"endTime":759.625,"body":"And then from there, you can build an"},{"startTime":759.625,"endTime":761.916,"body":"epistemological system that's reasonable,"},{"startTime":761.916,"endTime":764.0,"body":"that there is a reality out there."},{"startTime":764.291,"endTime":765.666,"body":"It's not all an illusion."},{"startTime":765.666,"endTime":767.25,"body":"We're not living in the matrix and so on."},{"startTime":767.75,"endTime":770.5,"body":"And we can know something about it with"},{"startTime":770.5,"endTime":772.791,"body":"some degree of confidence or or lack"},{"startTime":772.791,"endTime":774.458,"body":"thereof, depending on the idea."},{"startTime":774.458,"endTime":776.291,"body":"Well, wait, wait, I don't want to be"},{"startTime":776.291,"endTime":778.958,"body":"pedantic, but I do want to point out that"},{"startTime":778.958,"endTime":781.583,"body":"what you just said by my"},{"startTime":781.583,"endTime":784.041,"body":"epistemology is in no way secure."},{"startTime":785.041,"endTime":785.75,"body":"Which part?"},{"startTime":786.25,"endTime":788.833,"body":"I believe that we do not live in the"},{"startTime":788.833,"endTime":791.375,"body":"matrix, that we are able to observe the"},{"startTime":791.375,"endTime":793.291,"body":"universe, that it's not out to deceive us"},{"startTime":793.291,"endTime":796.041,"body":"and that we therefore can proceed"},{"startTime":796.041,"endTime":799.125,"body":"rationally to unpack its rules."},{"startTime":800.75,"endTime":801.875,"body":"But that is an assumption."},{"startTime":803.666,"endTime":805.5,"body":"Well, it is an assumption that"},{"startTime":805.5,"endTime":807.333,"body":"in my opinion, there's an assumption that"},{"startTime":807.333,"endTime":811.458,"body":"I'm alive and I'm cognitively unimpaired"},{"startTime":811.458,"endTime":813.708,"body":"and I can reasonably ask"},{"startTime":813.708,"endTime":815.791,"body":"questions. 100 percent."},{"startTime":816.125,"endTime":818.291,"body":"That well, that's two assumptions."},{"startTime":819.25,"endTime":820.208,"body":"You make an assumption."},{"startTime":821.166,"endTime":823.208,"body":"I assume that you make an assumption that"},{"startTime":823.208,"endTime":824.25,"body":"you are alive and capable"},{"startTime":824.25,"endTime":825.75,"body":"of observing the universe."},{"startTime":825.75,"endTime":828.083,"body":"And I would regard the likelihood that"},{"startTime":828.083,"endTime":828.875,"body":"you are correct in"},{"startTime":828.875,"endTime":831.541,"body":"that as extremely high."},{"startTime":833.0,"endTime":837.0,"body":"But from my perspective, I don't know for"},{"startTime":837.0,"endTime":838.5,"body":"sure that you do that."},{"startTime":838.5,"endTime":840.25,"body":"And this is one of the funny things about"},{"startTime":840.25,"endTime":844.833,"body":"Descartes proof is that assuming that"},{"startTime":844.833,"endTime":847.0,"body":"there was a guy named Descartes and that"},{"startTime":847.0,"endTime":848.958,"body":"he did, in fact, go through this line of"},{"startTime":848.958,"endTime":851.208,"body":"logic and conclude that"},{"startTime":851.208,"endTime":852.5,"body":"you have to start somewhere."},{"startTime":852.833,"endTime":854.833,"body":"I'm pretty sure I exist because if I"},{"startTime":854.833,"endTime":855.75,"body":"didn't, I wouldn't be"},{"startTime":855.75,"endTime":856.666,"body":"thinking these thoughts."},{"startTime":857.375,"endTime":859.333,"body":"He could establish to himself that he"},{"startTime":859.333,"endTime":862.041,"body":"existed, but I have to take it on"},{"startTime":862.041,"endTime":863.083,"body":"authority that he did."},{"startTime":863.458,"endTime":864.083,"body":"I don't know that there"},{"startTime":864.083,"endTime":865.333,"body":"was a person named Descartes."},{"startTime":865.333,"endTime":865.958,"body":"I never met him."},{"startTime":866.958,"endTime":868.416,"body":"I don't know that he had these thoughts."},{"startTime":868.708,"endTime":871.083,"body":"So anyway, I'm not arguing that we should"},{"startTime":871.083,"endTime":873.458,"body":"be doubting the existence of Descartes."},{"startTime":873.75,"endTime":874.666,"body":"I'm not arguing that I"},{"startTime":874.666,"endTime":876.041,"body":"should be doubting your existence."},{"startTime":876.75,"endTime":882.208,"body":"And I would be even more foolish to doubt"},{"startTime":882.208,"endTime":883.958,"body":"my own existence, which I can run the"},{"startTime":883.958,"endTime":885.458,"body":"same proof that Descartes did."},{"startTime":886.5,"endTime":889.708,"body":"But a truly properly grounded"},{"startTime":889.708,"endTime":893.458,"body":"epistemology has to I mean, as you say,"},{"startTime":893.666,"endTime":897.75,"body":"the probabilities range from zero to 100"},{"startTime":897.75,"endTime":900.25,"body":"and you should never assign a perfect"},{"startTime":900.25,"endTime":902.083,"body":"zero or a perfect 100."},{"startTime":904.208,"endTime":905.833,"body":"You know, and I counseled my kids that"},{"startTime":905.833,"endTime":908.083,"body":"way when when they were growing up."},{"startTime":908.083,"endTime":908.875,"body":"I said, what do you think"},{"startTime":908.875,"endTime":909.958,"body":"the chances of that are?"},{"startTime":909.958,"endTime":911.625,"body":"And they'd say it's 100 percent certain."},{"startTime":911.625,"endTime":912.916,"body":"And I say you just screwed up."},{"startTime":913.541,"endTime":913.833,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":914.25,"endTime":915.25,"body":"But anyway, go ahead."},{"startTime":915.25,"endTime":915.833,"body":"You look like you."},{"startTime":915.833,"endTime":918.041,"body":"So maybe that's where I'll just define"},{"startTime":918.041,"endTime":918.958,"body":"what I mean by truth."},{"startTime":919.333,"endTime":920.916,"body":"In this case, a scientific truth is a"},{"startTime":920.916,"endTime":922.416,"body":"claim for which the evidence is so"},{"startTime":922.416,"endTime":924.875,"body":"substantial that it is rational to offer"},{"startTime":924.875,"endTime":926.5,"body":"one's provisional assent."},{"startTime":927.083,"endTime":928.958,"body":"So provisional is the key word there."},{"startTime":928.958,"endTime":931.125,"body":"Yes, of course, you might be right."},{"startTime":931.125,"endTime":931.75,"body":"None of us exist."},{"startTime":931.958,"endTime":933.875,"body":"Or so it's not zero that"},{"startTime":933.875,"endTime":934.708,"body":"we're living in the matrix."},{"startTime":934.958,"endTime":936.75,"body":"But OK, and I got that from Gould."},{"startTime":938.041,"endTime":939.5,"body":"Steve Gould who wrote a famous essay,"},{"startTime":939.5,"endTime":941.875,"body":"Evolution as Fact and Theory, in which he"},{"startTime":941.875,"endTime":943.25,"body":"said facts and theories are different"},{"startTime":943.25,"endTime":945.5,"body":"things, not rungs on a hierarchy of"},{"startTime":945.5,"endTime":946.375,"body":"increasing certainty."},{"startTime":947.125,"endTime":948.5,"body":"Facts are the world's data theories or"},{"startTime":948.5,"endTime":949.458,"body":"structures of ideas that"},{"startTime":949.458,"endTime":950.75,"body":"explain and interpret facts."},{"startTime":951.458,"endTime":954.333,"body":"And then he goes on to say, scientists"},{"startTime":954.333,"endTime":956.666,"body":"make no claim for perpetual truth because"},{"startTime":956.666,"endTime":959.333,"body":"in science, fact can only mean confirmed"},{"startTime":959.333,"endTime":961.0,"body":"to such a degree it would be perverse to"},{"startTime":961.0,"endTime":962.5,"body":"withhold provisional assent."},{"startTime":963.0,"endTime":964.958,"body":"I suppose that apples might start to rise"},{"startTime":964.958,"endTime":966.708,"body":"tomorrow, but the possibility does not"},{"startTime":966.75,"endTime":969.125,"body":"merit equal time in physics classrooms."},{"startTime":969.541,"endTime":970.5,"body":"Now, it's a bit of a"},{"startTime":970.5,"endTime":972.541,"body":"practical definition there."},{"startTime":973.125,"endTime":974.791,"body":"OK, so I'm no fan of Gould."},{"startTime":975.541,"endTime":975.916,"body":"Gould,"},{"startTime":977.375,"endTime":980.375,"body":"in my opinion, is a villain in"},{"startTime":980.375,"endTime":984.625,"body":"evolutionary biology because for reasons"},{"startTime":984.625,"endTime":986.708,"body":"that many take to have been ideological,"},{"startTime":987.708,"endTime":991.083,"body":"he created roadblocks to adaptive"},{"startTime":991.083,"endTime":994.083,"body":"thinking and, in my opinion, set the"},{"startTime":994.083,"endTime":995.291,"body":"field back quite a bit."},{"startTime":995.625,"endTime":996.875,"body":"But never mind."},{"startTime":996.916,"endTime":1000.833,"body":"I would argue that the taxonomy provided"},{"startTime":1000.833,"endTime":1005.875,"body":"there by Gould is actually missing a"},{"startTime":1005.875,"endTime":1008.791,"body":"wrong, that there are wrongs."},{"startTime":1009.666,"endTime":1015.416,"body":"Your provisional assent that can apply to"},{"startTime":1015.416,"endTime":1019.625,"body":"a hypothesis that you believe is more"},{"startTime":1019.625,"endTime":1022.041,"body":"strongly favored by the evidence as it is"},{"startTime":1022.041,"endTime":1025.375,"body":"understood than the competing hypotheses,"},{"startTime":1026.208,"endTime":1027.25,"body":"which you agree that that"},{"startTime":1027.25,"endTime":1029.458,"body":"would count as provisional assent."},{"startTime":1030.0,"endTime":1030.166,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1030.875,"endTime":1038.791,"body":"OK, so that is lower than a theory where"},{"startTime":1038.791,"endTime":1041.583,"body":"all competing hypotheses have fallen."},{"startTime":1042.916,"endTime":1044.75,"body":"And what we are left with is one"},{"startTime":1044.75,"endTime":1046.125,"body":"hypothesis that then"},{"startTime":1046.125,"endTime":1047.666,"body":"matures into a theory."},{"startTime":1049.041,"endTime":1051.291,"body":"And the fact that it is a theory, which"},{"startTime":1051.291,"endTime":1053.5,"body":"is as close as we ever get to calling a"},{"startTime":1053.5,"endTime":1057.041,"body":"model, a fact, does not mean that it"},{"startTime":1057.041,"endTime":1060.083,"body":"can't be displaced by a superior"},{"startTime":1060.083,"endTime":1061.916,"body":"explanation that arises later."},{"startTime":1062.125,"endTime":1063.75,"body":"But it means that at the point that"},{"startTime":1063.75,"endTime":1066.833,"body":"something is a theory properly, there is"},{"startTime":1066.833,"endTime":1070.416,"body":"no competing hypothesis that remains"},{"startTime":1070.416,"endTime":1071.875,"body":"valid in light of the evidence."},{"startTime":1073.583,"endTime":1074.458,"body":"You consider that fair?"},{"startTime":1075.0,"endTime":1075.791,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1075.791,"endTime":1077.916,"body":"So let's let's just use some examples"},{"startTime":1077.916,"endTime":1078.666,"body":"like how do we know the"},{"startTime":1078.666,"endTime":1079.833,"body":"Big Bang theory is right."},{"startTime":1079.833,"endTime":1081.5,"body":"OK, well, there's a preponderance of"},{"startTime":1081.5,"endTime":1083.041,"body":"evidence or convergence of evidence"},{"startTime":1083.041,"endTime":1084.916,"body":"toward a single conclusion that"},{"startTime":1084.916,"endTime":1086.916,"body":"outcompetes the steady state theory."},{"startTime":1087.708,"endTime":1089.375,"body":"And that was all resolved from, like, say"},{"startTime":1089.375,"endTime":1091.625,"body":"the 1940s through the 1960s."},{"startTime":1091.625,"endTime":1093.625,"body":"And by the time I started college, I took"},{"startTime":1093.625,"endTime":1096.041,"body":"an astronomy course in 1972, the Big Bang"},{"startTime":1096.041,"endTime":1097.458,"body":"theory had largely won out."},{"startTime":1097.625,"endTime":1099.25,"body":"Now, by won out, well, so it"},{"startTime":1099.25,"endTime":1100.708,"body":"is kind of a social process."},{"startTime":1100.708,"endTime":1101.666,"body":"You have professional"},{"startTime":1101.666,"endTime":1102.958,"body":"astronomers and cosmologists."},{"startTime":1103.333,"endTime":1104.291,"body":"This is what they do."},{"startTime":1104.541,"endTime":1106.583,"body":"And they mostly agree this is the better"},{"startTime":1106.583,"endTime":1108.166,"body":"explanation than this one."},{"startTime":1108.708,"endTime":1110.583,"body":"And, you know, the expansion, the"},{"startTime":1110.583,"endTime":1112.583,"body":"redshift of almost all galaxies move it"},{"startTime":1112.583,"endTime":1113.375,"body":"away from one another."},{"startTime":1113.458,"endTime":1115.791,"body":"Looks like an explosion, preponderance of"},{"startTime":1115.791,"endTime":1117.541,"body":"fundamental elements"},{"startTime":1117.541,"endTime":1119.083,"body":"like hydrogen and helium."},{"startTime":1120.666,"endTime":1122.583,"body":"The, you know, the background radiation"},{"startTime":1122.583,"endTime":1125.0,"body":"of three degrees Kelvin looks like the"},{"startTime":1125.0,"endTime":1126.041,"body":"remnants of an explosion."},{"startTime":1126.708,"endTime":1128.708,"body":"Now we know that the accelerating"},{"startTime":1128.708,"endTime":1131.75,"body":"expansion is accelerating again as if"},{"startTime":1131.75,"endTime":1133.875,"body":"it's an explosion and so on."},{"startTime":1133.875,"endTime":1134.625,"body":"So, you know, astronomers"},{"startTime":1134.625,"endTime":1136.0,"body":"have largely worked this out."},{"startTime":1136.875,"endTime":1138.541,"body":"There are still a few Big Bang skeptics."},{"startTime":1138.875,"endTime":1141.375,"body":"I encounter them periodically, but they"},{"startTime":1141.375,"endTime":1143.041,"body":"don't, you know, they don't publish in"},{"startTime":1143.041,"endTime":1144.666,"body":"peer-reviewed scientific journals."},{"startTime":1145.125,"endTime":1146.375,"body":"They just have these"},{"startTime":1146.375,"endTime":1147.25,"body":"alternative theories."},{"startTime":1147.75,"endTime":1150.375,"body":"They can't seem to get a grasp to"},{"startTime":1150.375,"endTime":1152.25,"body":"challenge the mainstream theory."},{"startTime":1153.083,"endTime":1155.25,"body":"And they really just lack that kind of"},{"startTime":1155.25,"endTime":1156.375,"body":"convergence of evidence"},{"startTime":1156.375,"endTime":1157.958,"body":"to a single conclusion."},{"startTime":1158.375,"endTime":1159.75,"body":"Well, so let us."},{"startTime":1161.166,"endTime":1162.833,"body":"This is obviously not my area of"},{"startTime":1162.833,"endTime":1166.625,"body":"expertise, but let's put some other"},{"startTime":1166.625,"endTime":1169.166,"body":"things on the table so we know that this"},{"startTime":1169.166,"endTime":1171.0,"body":"isn't just simply a matter that when we"},{"startTime":1171.0,"endTime":1173.0,"body":"look through a telescope, what we see is"},{"startTime":1173.041,"endTime":1175.958,"body":"obviously the product of an explosion."},{"startTime":1179.375,"endTime":1181.333,"body":"However many billion years it was ago."},{"startTime":1181.833,"endTime":1182.666,"body":"Thirteen point eight."},{"startTime":1182.666,"endTime":1184.166,"body":"Fourteen is what I was going to say."},{"startTime":1184.416,"endTime":1190.625,"body":"So let's I am not a believer that we live"},{"startTime":1190.625,"endTime":1194.75,"body":"in a simulation, but we can understand"},{"startTime":1194.75,"endTime":1197.708,"body":"that if we live in a simulation, if this"},{"startTime":1197.708,"endTime":1201.333,"body":"is a computer program in which reality is"},{"startTime":1201.333,"endTime":1204.541,"body":"rendered in order to leave the impression"},{"startTime":1204.541,"endTime":1206.458,"body":"that when we look through a telescope, we"},{"startTime":1206.458,"endTime":1207.625,"body":"see distant stars, but"},{"startTime":1207.625,"endTime":1209.166,"body":"that isn't what they are."},{"startTime":1209.541,"endTime":1211.541,"body":"They are renderings in data."},{"startTime":1212.666,"endTime":1217.041,"body":"Then that would invalidate the Big Bang."},{"startTime":1218.291,"endTime":1224.125,"body":"Because the sum total of all of the"},{"startTime":1224.125,"endTime":1227.958,"body":"evidence would match the simulation"},{"startTime":1227.958,"endTime":1229.916,"body":"hypothesis rather"},{"startTime":1229.916,"endTime":1231.5,"body":"than the Big Bang theory."},{"startTime":1231.791,"endTime":1233.916,"body":"And I would argue that the reason that we"},{"startTime":1233.916,"endTime":1237.583,"body":"do not have the Big Bang as a hypothesis"},{"startTime":1237.583,"endTime":1241.166,"body":"and the simulation as a competing"},{"startTime":1241.291,"endTime":1243.291,"body":"hypothesis is that the simulation does"},{"startTime":1243.291,"endTime":1246.958,"body":"not make distinguishing predictions."},{"startTime":1248.166,"endTime":1251.291,"body":"It's not a hypothesis because it's not"},{"startTime":1251.291,"endTime":1257.25,"body":"testable, but that does not mean that the"},{"startTime":1257.25,"endTime":1261.833,"body":"Big Bang theory is certain."},{"startTime":1262.458,"endTime":1264.5,"body":"I mean, I'm reiterating your point here."},{"startTime":1264.5,"endTime":1265.541,"body":"It is not certainly true."},{"startTime":1265.791,"endTime":1266.25,"body":"This multi."},{"startTime":1266.5,"endTime":1266.666,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1267.166,"endTime":1267.333,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1267.333,"endTime":1268.708,"body":"For now, this is what we think happened."},{"startTime":1269.166,"endTime":1270.291,"body":"I mean, it's possible it"},{"startTime":1270.291,"endTime":1272.291,"body":"could be greatly revised."},{"startTime":1272.708,"endTime":1274.125,"body":"Apparently the James Webb telescope is"},{"startTime":1274.125,"endTime":1277.708,"body":"finding galaxies that are fully formed"},{"startTime":1277.708,"endTime":1279.375,"body":"like 100 million years after the Big"},{"startTime":1279.375,"endTime":1281.166,"body":"Bang, which is not possible, according to"},{"startTime":1281.166,"endTime":1282.5,"body":"current theories of galaxy formation."},{"startTime":1282.958,"endTime":1283.25,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1284.25,"endTime":1285.416,"body":"But that doesn't mean the creationists"},{"startTime":1285.416,"endTime":1286.083,"body":"are right and that we"},{"startTime":1286.083,"endTime":1287.541,"body":"should devote time to them."},{"startTime":1287.75,"endTime":1289.958,"body":"Think the universe was created 10,000"},{"startTime":1289.958,"endTime":1292.5,"body":"years ago and the tired light that comes"},{"startTime":1292.5,"endTime":1293.708,"body":"into the telescopes of"},{"startTime":1293.708,"endTime":1295.666,"body":"astronomers is just a deception."},{"startTime":1295.666,"endTime":1297.291,"body":"It's not really 13.8 billion."},{"startTime":1297.291,"endTime":1298.25,"body":"It's 10,000 years."},{"startTime":1298.333,"endTime":1300.583,"body":"So you would expect just to build up the"},{"startTime":1300.583,"endTime":1302.833,"body":"taxonomy properly, you would expect that"},{"startTime":1302.833,"endTime":1306.583,"body":"science has likely discovered the correct"},{"startTime":1306.583,"endTime":1309.583,"body":"fundamental explanation and explosion."},{"startTime":1311.0,"endTime":1311.791,"body":"Cooling happens."},{"startTime":1312.416,"endTime":1315.458,"body":"Heavier elements are formed by processes,"},{"startTime":1316.083,"endTime":1319.166,"body":"gravitation being the key one that drives"},{"startTime":1319.166,"endTime":1321.083,"body":"things together in early stars."},{"startTime":1321.625,"endTime":1323.708,"body":"And when they go, Nova produce heavy"},{"startTime":1323.708,"endTime":1325.583,"body":"elements, all of that, that that"},{"startTime":1325.583,"endTime":1326.666,"body":"explanation is correct."},{"startTime":1327.0,"endTime":1330.625,"body":"But you could see a revision of the date."},{"startTime":1331.75,"endTime":1331.958,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1332.375,"endTime":1333.833,"body":"If superior evidence came to light, that"},{"startTime":1333.833,"endTime":1336.375,"body":"wouldn't invalidate the theory of the Big"},{"startTime":1336.375,"endTime":1338.166,"body":"Bang, but it would modify it."},{"startTime":1338.166,"endTime":1340.083,"body":"And so that's the general pattern you"},{"startTime":1340.083,"endTime":1342.333,"body":"would expect is we get it right."},{"startTime":1342.333,"endTime":1342.708,"body":"Broad brush."},{"startTime":1343.291,"endTime":1344.875,"body":"Our precision gets better over time."},{"startTime":1345.375,"endTime":1347.0,"body":"Every so often, something that we were"},{"startTime":1347.0,"endTime":1349.291,"body":"pretty darn sure about gets overthrown."},{"startTime":1350.583,"endTime":1351.375,"body":"That is also a"},{"startTime":1351.375,"endTime":1352.416,"body":"natural part of the process."},{"startTime":1352.541,"endTime":1355.208,"body":"And it's in fact the best argument in"},{"startTime":1355.208,"endTime":1357.083,"body":"favor of science that there is, is that"},{"startTime":1357.083,"endTime":1358.125,"body":"it's the one process"},{"startTime":1358.125,"endTime":1359.416,"body":"that's built to self correct."},{"startTime":1360.333,"endTime":1361.916,"body":"Our final sponsor is Timeline."},{"startTime":1362.875,"endTime":1364.875,"body":"Timeline makes mitopure, which contains a"},{"startTime":1364.875,"endTime":1366.958,"body":"powerful postbiotic that is hard to get"},{"startTime":1366.958,"endTime":1367.875,"body":"from your diet alone."},{"startTime":1368.208,"endTime":1368.916,"body":"Urolithin A."},{"startTime":1369.166,"endTime":1370.75,"body":"Found primarily in pomegranates,"},{"startTime":1371.083,"endTime":1372.666,"body":"Urolithin A has been the subject of"},{"startTime":1372.666,"endTime":1374.208,"body":"hundreds of scientific or clinical"},{"startTime":1374.208,"endTime":1376.333,"body":"studies, many of which find that it"},{"startTime":1376.333,"endTime":1378.291,"body":"enhances mitochondrial function and"},{"startTime":1378.291,"endTime":1380.0,"body":"cellular energy and improves muscle"},{"startTime":1380.0,"endTime":1380.958,"body":"strength and endurance."},{"startTime":1381.625,"endTime":1382.291,"body":"But how does it work?"},{"startTime":1382.791,"endTime":1384.666,"body":"Your mitochondria are the powerhouses of"},{"startTime":1384.666,"endTime":1386.875,"body":"your cells, but like everything living,"},{"startTime":1387.125,"endTime":1388.541,"body":"they can decay or get damaged."},{"startTime":1389.041,"endTime":1390.75,"body":"The older we get, the more likely we are"},{"startTime":1390.75,"endTime":1392.333,"body":"to have damaged mitochondria, which"},{"startTime":1392.333,"endTime":1394.083,"body":"accumulate in joints and other tissues."},{"startTime":1394.708,"endTime":1396.5,"body":"This is in part because mitipage, the"},{"startTime":1396.5,"endTime":1398.541,"body":"process by which damaged mitochondria are"},{"startTime":1398.541,"endTime":1400.333,"body":"removed from cells, becomes less"},{"startTime":1400.333,"endTime":1401.5,"body":"efficient the older we get."},{"startTime":1401.958,"endTime":1404.041,"body":"The age related decline in mitipage not"},{"startTime":1404.041,"endTime":1405.875,"body":"only inhibits removal of damaged or"},{"startTime":1405.875,"endTime":1408.125,"body":"excess mitochondria, but also impairs the"},{"startTime":1408.125,"endTime":1409.916,"body":"creation of new mitochondria, which"},{"startTime":1409.916,"endTime":1410.958,"body":"results in an overall"},{"startTime":1410.958,"endTime":1412.458,"body":"decline in cell function."},{"startTime":1412.75,"endTime":1414.583,"body":"mitopure from Timeline works by"},{"startTime":1414.583,"endTime":1415.541,"body":"triggering mitipage."},{"startTime":1416.083,"endTime":1417.791,"body":"Quoting a research article published in"},{"startTime":1417.791,"endTime":1421.041,"body":"Cell Reports Medicine in 2022, \"Targeting"},{"startTime":1421.041,"endTime":1423.25,"body":"mitipage to activate the recycling of"},{"startTime":1423.25,"endTime":1425.333,"body":"faulty mitochondria during aging is a"},{"startTime":1425.333,"endTime":1427.0,"body":"strategy to mitigate muscle decline."},{"startTime":1427.375,"endTime":1429.0,"body":"We present results from a randomized"},{"startTime":1429.0,"endTime":1430.958,"body":"placebo controlled trial in middle aged"},{"startTime":1430.958,"endTime":1433.0,"body":"adults where we administer a postbiotic"},{"startTime":1433.0,"endTime":1435.708,"body":"compound, Urolithin A, mitopure, a known"},{"startTime":1435.708,"endTime":1437.541,"body":"mitipage activator, at"},{"startTime":1437.541,"endTime":1439.0,"body":"two doses for four months."},{"startTime":1439.041,"endTime":1440.541,"body":"The data shows significant improvements"},{"startTime":1440.541,"endTime":1441.916,"body":"in muscle strength, 12%,"},{"startTime":1442.25,"endTime":1443.833,"body":"with intake of Urolithin A."},{"startTime":1444.041,"endTime":1445.708,"body":"We observe clinically meaningful"},{"startTime":1445.708,"endTime":1448.333,"body":"improvements with Urolithin A on aerobic"},{"startTime":1448.333,"endTime":1450.208,"body":"endurance and physical performance, but"},{"startTime":1450.208,"endTime":1451.166,"body":"do not notice significant"},{"startTime":1451.166,"endTime":1452.791,"body":"improvement on peak power output.\""},{"startTime":1453.0,"endTime":1454.875,"body":"Furthermore, research published in Nature"},{"startTime":1454.875,"endTime":1457.25,"body":"Medicine in 2016 found that in mice, the"},{"startTime":1457.25,"endTime":1459.458,"body":"beneficial effects of Urolithin A on"},{"startTime":1459.458,"endTime":1461.291,"body":"muscle physiology were"},{"startTime":1461.291,"endTime":1463.0,"body":"independent of diet or age."},{"startTime":1463.375,"endTime":1465.625,"body":"Take two softshells of mitopure a day for"},{"startTime":1465.625,"endTime":1467.083,"body":"two months and you may see significant"},{"startTime":1467.083,"endTime":1468.041,"body":"improvements in your"},{"startTime":1468.041,"endTime":1469.208,"body":"muscle strength and endurance."},{"startTime":1470.041,"endTime":1471.833,"body":"mitopure enhances your cells' ability to"},{"startTime":1471.833,"endTime":1473.833,"body":"clean themselves up and regenerate new"},{"startTime":1473.833,"endTime":1475.0,"body":"healthy mitochondria."},{"startTime":1475.291,"endTime":1476.875,"body":"In combination with regular physical"},{"startTime":1476.875,"endTime":1478.791,"body":"activity, mitopure can help you stay"},{"startTime":1478.791,"endTime":1480.666,"body":"strong and healthy into old age."},{"startTime":1481.166,"endTime":1483.541,"body":"Timeline is now offering 20% off your"},{"startTime":1483.541,"endTime":1484.875,"body":"first order of mitopure."},{"startTime":1485.416,"endTime":1488.291,"body":"Go to timeline.com slash darkhorse and"},{"startTime":1488.291,"endTime":1489.333,"body":"use the code darkhorse"},{"startTime":1489.333,"endTime":1491.125,"body":"to get 20% off your order."},{"startTime":1491.583,"endTime":1494.041,"body":"That's T-I-M-E-L-I-N-E"},{"startTime":1494.041,"endTime":1496.291,"body":"dot com slash darkhorse."},{"startTime":1521.166,"endTime":1525.416,"body":"Any help to separate all your medical"},{"startTime":1525.416,"endTime":1525.75,"body":"Khan Luthor creative to increase pressure Manitoba gentle touch."},{"startTime":1551.125,"endTime":1551.583,"body":"or whatever."},{"startTime":1551.875,"endTime":1552.75,"body":"So how can we trust"},{"startTime":1552.75,"endTime":1553.958,"body":"anything the scientists say?"},{"startTime":1554.333,"endTime":1555.583,"body":"Yeah, but it's usually the scientists"},{"startTime":1555.583,"endTime":1557.458,"body":"that found out that Piltham man was a"},{"startTime":1557.458,"endTime":1559.0,"body":"hoax and that that fossil was"},{"startTime":1559.0,"endTime":1560.375,"body":"misidentified and so on."},{"startTime":1560.375,"endTime":1560.958,"body":"Not the creations."},{"startTime":1562.541,"endTime":1565.208,"body":"Well, I do think we have a new crop of"},{"startTime":1565.208,"endTime":1570.541,"body":"creationists who have actually leveled up"},{"startTime":1570.541,"endTime":1572.208,"body":"the quality of their science."},{"startTime":1573.0,"endTime":1573.208,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":1573.416,"endTime":1574.0,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":1574.291,"endTime":1574.458,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1574.875,"endTime":1577.208,"body":"So, you know, I'm, I appreciate them."},{"startTime":1577.666,"endTime":1578.958,"body":"The intelligent design theorists, yeah,"},{"startTime":1578.958,"endTime":1581.625,"body":"they're better than the Duane Gish, young"},{"startTime":1581.625,"endTime":1583.0,"body":"earth creationist crowd for sure."},{"startTime":1583.5,"endTime":1583.708,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1583.833,"endTime":1584.208,"body":"To be sure."},{"startTime":1584.458,"endTime":1585.75,"body":"But they're still, okay, so, but this is"},{"startTime":1585.75,"endTime":1586.958,"body":"an interesting case study."},{"startTime":1586.958,"endTime":1587.166,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1587.416,"endTime":1588.458,"body":"Because I know all those guys I've read"},{"startTime":1588.458,"endTime":1589.666,"body":"all their books and so on."},{"startTime":1590.083,"endTime":1593.291,"body":"There's still a move they make where they"},{"startTime":1593.291,"endTime":1597.666,"body":"exit methodological naturalism and they"},{"startTime":1597.666,"endTime":1599.291,"body":"end up, you know, with the God of the"},{"startTime":1599.291,"endTime":1601.0,"body":"gaps type, an argument, it"},{"startTime":1601.0,"endTime":1602.208,"body":"always comes down to that."},{"startTime":1602.208,"endTime":1603.5,"body":"And then a miracle happened."},{"startTime":1603.5,"endTime":1606.0,"body":"And then this, we can't explain the mind"},{"startTime":1606.0,"endTime":1608.833,"body":"or, you know, the rise of complex"},{"startTime":1609.208,"endTime":1610.916,"body":"systems, eukaryotic"},{"startTime":1610.916,"endTime":1612.416,"body":"cells from prokaryotic cells."},{"startTime":1612.833,"endTime":1614.25,"body":"There's a RNA to DNA."},{"startTime":1614.5,"endTime":1615.333,"body":"There's a gap there."},{"startTime":1615.75,"endTime":1616.375,"body":"And, you know, they have a"},{"startTime":1616.375,"endTime":1617.416,"body":"laundry list of these things."},{"startTime":1617.625,"endTime":1619.666,"body":"So, you know, I offer the best"},{"startTime":1619.666,"endTime":1620.833,"body":"explanation we have and they"},{"startTime":1620.833,"endTime":1621.916,"body":"go, yeah, I'm not buying it."},{"startTime":1621.916,"endTime":1622.625,"body":"So I go, okay, then"},{"startTime":1622.625,"endTime":1623.5,"body":"what's your explanation?"},{"startTime":1624.583,"endTime":1625.583,"body":"Well, and it just comes"},{"startTime":1625.583,"endTime":1626.916,"body":"down to, well, God did it."},{"startTime":1627.125,"endTime":1629.166,"body":"But that's not really an explanation."},{"startTime":1629.458,"endTime":1630.708,"body":"I mean, how did God do it?"},{"startTime":1631.0,"endTime":1634.791,"body":"Did God take RNA and mush it into DNA or,"},{"startTime":1634.791,"endTime":1637.041,"body":"you know, how did the designer do this?"},{"startTime":1637.25,"endTime":1639.0,"body":"So it's not an explanation that's useful."},{"startTime":1639.375,"endTime":1640.541,"body":"Well, to the extent that"},{"startTime":1640.541,"endTime":1642.208,"body":"they offer that explanation,"},{"startTime":1643.25,"endTime":1646.5,"body":"it is a violation of a philosophical"},{"startTime":1646.5,"endTime":1649.25,"body":"principle that we require in order to do"},{"startTime":1649.25,"endTime":1654.5,"body":"science, which is it just, it takes that"},{"startTime":1654.5,"endTime":1659.375,"body":"which cannot be explained and offers to"},{"startTime":1659.375,"endTime":1662.583,"body":"solve it with a much greater mystery."},{"startTime":1663.375,"endTime":1667.791,"body":"If God did all these things, then God has"},{"startTime":1667.791,"endTime":1669.916,"body":"to be explained or you"},{"startTime":1669.916,"endTime":1671.208,"body":"haven't explained anything."},{"startTime":1671.666,"endTime":1673.5,"body":"So I would hold their"},{"startTime":1673.5,"endTime":1674.833,"body":"feet to the fire on that."},{"startTime":1675.375,"endTime":1676.375,"body":"But I also see,"},{"startTime":1679.0,"endTime":1680.958,"body":"I see a,"},{"startTime":1682.625,"endTime":1685.166,"body":"because these folks are motivated to"},{"startTime":1685.208,"endTime":1687.833,"body":"search for errors in the Darwinian story,"},{"startTime":1688.916,"endTime":1692.0,"body":"I believe they actually are doing a more"},{"startTime":1692.0,"endTime":1695.25,"body":"honest job of finding genuinely difficult"},{"startTime":1695.25,"endTime":1697.541,"body":"puzzles than modern evolutionary"},{"startTime":1697.541,"endTime":1701.416,"body":"biologists who, in my opinion, are so"},{"startTime":1701.416,"endTime":1704.375,"body":"afraid of opening the door to challenges"},{"startTime":1704.375,"endTime":1706.708,"body":"to Darwinism that they pretend the story"},{"startTime":1706.708,"endTime":1708.208,"body":"is far more complete"},{"startTime":1708.208,"endTime":1709.666,"body":"and convincing than it is."},{"startTime":1709.958,"endTime":1711.25,"body":"And I say this as an evolutionary"},{"startTime":1711.25,"endTime":1716.166,"body":"biologist who believes Darwin was not"},{"startTime":1716.166,"endTime":1719.666,"body":"only right, but right at a level that is"},{"startTime":1719.666,"endTime":1721.875,"body":"hard to imagine given how"},{"startTime":1721.875,"endTime":1724.333,"body":"primitive his evidence set was."},{"startTime":1725.166,"endTime":1727.375,"body":"He did spectacularly well and I see no"},{"startTime":1727.375,"endTime":1730.625,"body":"major challenge to Darwin, but I do see"},{"startTime":1731.375,"endTime":1734.291,"body":"modern Darwinists failing to recognize"},{"startTime":1734.291,"endTime":1737.833,"body":"the holes in the model that they've got"},{"startTime":1737.833,"endTime":1740.166,"body":"because effectively they're fighting an"},{"startTime":1740.166,"endTime":1742.666,"body":"ideological battle with religious folks"},{"startTime":1742.666,"endTime":1744.041,"body":"that is blinding them."},{"startTime":1745.875,"endTime":1746.708,"body":"So that's an uncomfortable"},{"startTime":1746.708,"endTime":1748.083,"body":"position for me to sit in."},{"startTime":1748.833,"endTime":1749.916,"body":"I'd love to, I'd love to be"},{"startTime":1749.916,"endTime":1751.5,"body":"just rooting for team Darwin."},{"startTime":1752.25,"endTime":1753.0,"body":"It's a fair point."},{"startTime":1753.708,"endTime":1754.708,"body":"Why are they excluded?"},{"startTime":1754.958,"endTime":1758.041,"body":"Well, in part, they don't publish in the"},{"startTime":1758.041,"endTime":1759.333,"body":"scientific journals where you would"},{"startTime":1759.333,"endTime":1761.625,"body":"challenge the Darwinian paradigm."},{"startTime":1762.375,"endTime":1764.625,"body":"Let's take by way of contrast, Lynn"},{"startTime":1764.625,"endTime":1767.666,"body":"Margulis, who was pushing her theory of,"},{"startTime":1767.666,"endTime":1769.208,"body":"what was it, angiogenesis?"},{"startTime":1769.5,"endTime":1772.416,"body":"No, symbiogenesis, I think it was called,"},{"startTime":1773.0,"endTime":1776.583,"body":"how prokaryotic cells merged into"},{"startTime":1776.583,"endTime":1778.75,"body":"prokaryotic cells, mitochondria being the"},{"startTime":1778.75,"endTime":1779.625,"body":"most famous example."},{"startTime":1780.083,"endTime":1781.416,"body":"They were themselves once an"},{"startTime":1781.416,"endTime":1782.708,"body":"independent organism and so on."},{"startTime":1782.708,"endTime":1784.0,"body":"Well, you know about this and I do."},{"startTime":1784.791,"endTime":1788.333,"body":"But she plugged away for decades and now"},{"startTime":1788.333,"endTime":1789.875,"body":"her theories are largely accepted."},{"startTime":1789.875,"endTime":1790.625,"body":"How did she do that?"},{"startTime":1791.125,"endTime":1792.708,"body":"She published in peer review journals."},{"startTime":1792.708,"endTime":1793.625,"body":"She went to conferences."},{"startTime":1793.625,"endTime":1794.916,"body":"I spent a week with her in the Galapagos"},{"startTime":1794.916,"endTime":1796.541,"body":"with a bunch of evolutionary biologists"},{"startTime":1796.541,"endTime":1801.041,"body":"and she was quite the bellicose, I'm"},{"startTime":1801.041,"endTime":1801.833,"body":"going to challenge the"},{"startTime":1801.833,"endTime":1803.666,"body":"paradigm and I'm not a Darwinian."},{"startTime":1803.666,"endTime":1805.25,"body":"I'm not even a neo-Darwinian."},{"startTime":1805.25,"endTime":1806.0,"body":"I forget what she called"},{"startTime":1806.0,"endTime":1808.875,"body":"herself, but she's in the room."},{"startTime":1809.5,"endTime":1810.375,"body":"She's one of them."},{"startTime":1810.875,"endTime":1813.041,"body":"So she gets a hearing because she's"},{"startTime":1813.041,"endTime":1815.125,"body":"playing the game of science the way it's"},{"startTime":1815.125,"endTime":1816.125,"body":"designed to be played."},{"startTime":1816.416,"endTime":1817.125,"body":"I'm with you, Michael."},{"startTime":1817.666,"endTime":1820.125,"body":"I think that these intelligent design"},{"startTime":1820.125,"endTime":1823.208,"body":"folks should be publishing in all of the"},{"startTime":1823.208,"endTime":1825.25,"body":"evolutionary journals that courageously"},{"startTime":1825.25,"endTime":1827.375,"body":"stood up and said there are exactly two"},{"startTime":1827.375,"endTime":1829.791,"body":"sexes and you can't change from one to"},{"startTime":1829.791,"endTime":1831.583,"body":"the other by deciding to do it."},{"startTime":1832.0,"endTime":1832.208,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1833.0,"endTime":1834.458,"body":"That's where they should publish, right?"},{"startTime":1834.958,"endTime":1835.333,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1835.791,"endTime":1836.375,"body":"Because those journals"},{"startTime":1836.375,"endTime":1837.208,"body":"don't exist, Michael."},{"startTime":1837.625,"endTime":1838.5,"body":"Okay, I see your point."},{"startTime":1838.5,"endTime":1839.125,"body":"Yeah, well, okay."},{"startTime":1839.666,"endTime":1842.291,"body":"Well, yeah, but enough of us are standing"},{"startTime":1842.291,"endTime":1843.916,"body":"up on that particular issue."},{"startTime":1843.916,"endTime":1844.875,"body":"I think we're winning that"},{"startTime":1844.875,"endTime":1846.291,"body":"battle on the trans thing."},{"startTime":1846.291,"endTime":1846.458,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1846.583,"endTime":1847.833,"body":"But hold on a second."},{"startTime":1849.125,"endTime":1851.583,"body":"You have an entire field."},{"startTime":1853.083,"endTime":1856.333,"body":"Every single person in evolutionary"},{"startTime":1856.333,"endTime":1860.958,"body":"biology knows not only that sex is"},{"startTime":1860.958,"endTime":1864.75,"body":"binary, but knows why it is binary and"},{"startTime":1864.75,"endTime":1866.875,"body":"knows that it has been binary for"},{"startTime":1866.875,"endTime":1869.0,"body":"hundreds of millions of years."},{"startTime":1870.541,"endTime":1873.208,"body":"And yet the field did not"},{"startTime":1873.208,"endTime":1875.541,"body":"stand up, not even en masse."},{"startTime":1876.0,"endTime":1877.833,"body":"There's not one department in the country"},{"startTime":1877.833,"endTime":1880.0,"body":"that stood up and said, we're"},{"startTime":1880.0,"endTime":1882.291,"body":"compassionate about people who have"},{"startTime":1882.291,"endTime":1883.791,"body":"persistent gendered dysphoria, but you"},{"startTime":1883.791,"endTime":1885.791,"body":"can't switch sexes as a human being."},{"startTime":1886.166,"endTime":1886.75,"body":"Not one."},{"startTime":1886.958,"endTime":1888.875,"body":"Not one medical school said it."},{"startTime":1888.875,"endTime":1890.125,"body":"So there's something"},{"startTime":1890.125,"endTime":1891.875,"body":"rotten in the land of science."},{"startTime":1892.708,"endTime":1895.375,"body":"And as much as I would like there to be a"},{"startTime":1895.375,"endTime":1897.416,"body":"level playing field where the intelligent"},{"startTime":1897.416,"endTime":1899.125,"body":"design folks could bring their evidence"},{"startTime":1899.125,"endTime":1900.541,"body":"and everybody else could bring their"},{"startTime":1900.541,"endTime":1902.666,"body":"evidence and may the better model win,"},{"startTime":1903.708,"endTime":1906.25,"body":"that playing field does not exist."},{"startTime":1908.583,"endTime":1909.291,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":1909.291,"endTime":1910.208,"body":"But what's the alternative?"},{"startTime":1911.083,"endTime":1912.333,"body":"So, um, it's rough."},{"startTime":1913.583,"endTime":1914.416,"body":"Well, we all stand up"},{"startTime":1914.416,"endTime":1915.583,"body":"and say, no, that's wrong."},{"startTime":1915.791,"endTime":1918.25,"body":"And again, I think there it's so"},{"startTime":1918.25,"endTime":1919.875,"body":"politicized, the trans issue."},{"startTime":1919.875,"endTime":1922.5,"body":"Let's just use that example, um, that"},{"startTime":1922.5,"endTime":1925.541,"body":"scientists ideologies and their desire"},{"startTime":1925.541,"endTime":1927.666,"body":"for social change and"},{"startTime":1927.666,"endTime":1929.125,"body":"acceptance and so on."},{"startTime":1929.125,"endTime":1931.625,"body":"And you know, we had the civil rights and"},{"startTime":1931.625,"endTime":1933.166,"body":"the women's rights and the gay rights."},{"startTime":1933.166,"endTime":1934.375,"body":"And so the trans rights, well, that's"},{"startTime":1934.375,"endTime":1935.625,"body":"gotta be the next"},{"startTime":1935.625,"endTime":1936.958,"body":"thing I gotta be behind."},{"startTime":1936.958,"endTime":1937.166,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1937.166,"endTime":1937.791,"body":"I'm support that."},{"startTime":1938.375,"endTime":1940.0,"body":"And now then they make the other mistake."},{"startTime":1940.0,"endTime":1942.166,"body":"Well, then the biology has got to match,"},{"startTime":1942.166,"endTime":1944.5,"body":"um, my ideology, even"},{"startTime":1944.5,"endTime":1945.791,"body":"though that's completely wrong."},{"startTime":1946.083,"endTime":1947.916,"body":"I mean, it's back, back in the days when,"},{"startTime":1947.916,"endTime":1949.25,"body":"you know, well, blacks are less"},{"startTime":1949.25,"endTime":1951.166,"body":"intelligent than whites."},{"startTime":1951.375,"endTime":1953.458,"body":"Well, we can't say that because then they"},{"startTime":1953.458,"endTime":1954.166,"body":"could be mistreated."},{"startTime":1954.5,"endTime":1956.833,"body":"So you mean if it turned out that, that"},{"startTime":1956.833,"endTime":1958.416,"body":"blacks are less intelligent than whites,"},{"startTime":1958.416,"endTime":1959.541,"body":"then it's okay to discriminate?"},{"startTime":1960.041,"endTime":1960.25,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1960.75,"endTime":1961.0,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1961.291,"endTime":1963.375,"body":"Or that gays are this or women are that,"},{"startTime":1963.375,"endTime":1966.083,"body":"um, you know, we, we should hold those"},{"startTime":1966.083,"endTime":1968.875,"body":"moral values regardless of whatever the"},{"startTime":1968.875,"endTime":1970.916,"body":"science says, because if we don't do"},{"startTime":1970.916,"endTime":1971.875,"body":"that, then we're going to push the"},{"startTime":1971.875,"endTime":1973.541,"body":"science in an incorrect direction."},{"startTime":1973.541,"endTime":1974.875,"body":"So that's the mistake that they make."},{"startTime":1974.875,"endTime":1977.166,"body":"And, um, okay."},{"startTime":1977.166,"endTime":1980.708,"body":"So the fact that most of these biologists"},{"startTime":1980.708,"endTime":1985.708,"body":"who know that sex is binary, um, we're,"},{"startTime":1985.708,"endTime":1988.333,"body":"uh, did not stand up for that or, you"},{"startTime":1988.333,"endTime":1989.208,"body":"know, what's in their hearts."},{"startTime":1989.5,"endTime":1990.458,"body":"Do they really know?"},{"startTime":1990.666,"endTime":1991.833,"body":"Probably they really know."},{"startTime":1991.833,"endTime":1993.25,"body":"They're afraid to say something."},{"startTime":1993.25,"endTime":1994.541,"body":"I don't know which is more damning."},{"startTime":1994.875,"endTime":1995.708,"body":"I know it's worse."},{"startTime":1995.708,"endTime":1995.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1995.958,"endTime":1996.791,"body":"I know they're both worse."},{"startTime":1996.791,"endTime":1999.333,"body":"They do know then they're cowards, which"},{"startTime":1999.333,"endTime":2002.125,"body":"I can tell you almost all academics are,"},{"startTime":2002.125,"endTime":2004.0,"body":"but does that mean all other areas in the"},{"startTime":2004.0,"endTime":2004.875,"body":"biological sciences?"},{"startTime":2005.333,"endTime":2007.916,"body":"Let's say, you know, some of your, um,"},{"startTime":2008.375,"endTime":2010.583,"body":"uh, your issues like with vaccines or,"},{"startTime":2010.583,"endTime":2014.541,"body":"or, uh, COVID or alternative models, what"},{"startTime":2014.541,"endTime":2015.333,"body":"I think you have a"},{"startTime":2015.333,"endTime":2017.291,"body":"lineage lineage selection."},{"startTime":2017.625,"endTime":2017.833,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2018.416,"endTime":2018.958,"body":"Lineage selection."},{"startTime":2019.416,"endTime":2022.208,"body":"Um, that, that doesn't mean you're being"},{"startTime":2022.208,"endTime":2024.5,"body":"discriminated against because of, for"},{"startTime":2024.5,"endTime":2025.5,"body":"ideological reasons."},{"startTime":2025.75,"endTime":2026.875,"body":"It may be, Oh, I"},{"startTime":2026.875,"endTime":2028.333,"body":"didn't, I didn't say it was."},{"startTime":2028.333,"endTime":2029.0,"body":"No, I know."},{"startTime":2029.0,"endTime":2030.583,"body":"I'm just using it as an example."},{"startTime":2030.916,"endTime":2033.5,"body":"So how should you introduce"},{"startTime":2033.5,"endTime":2035.541,"body":"your ideas into the community?"},{"startTime":2035.541,"endTime":2036.5,"body":"Like your lineage?"},{"startTime":2036.791,"endTime":2039.541,"body":"I think you're starting with an"},{"startTime":2039.541,"endTime":2043.0,"body":"assumption, which is that there must be a"},{"startTime":2043.0,"endTime":2044.125,"body":"mechanism for doing"},{"startTime":2044.125,"endTime":2046.333,"body":"this correctly in 2026."},{"startTime":2046.958,"endTime":2047.833,"body":"Well, I would hope so."},{"startTime":2048.708,"endTime":2051.083,"body":"Look, you and I would agree that we must"},{"startTime":2051.083,"endTime":2053.416,"body":"have such a system because we have a very"},{"startTime":2053.416,"endTime":2055.416,"body":"dangerous civilization that needs to be"},{"startTime":2055.416,"endTime":2057.333,"body":"carefully governed based on sound"},{"startTime":2057.333,"endTime":2059.208,"body":"scientific principles and to discover"},{"startTime":2059.208,"endTime":2062.083,"body":"that the academy is unreliable in"},{"startTime":2062.5,"endTime":2065.958,"body":"generating evidence or models to account"},{"startTime":2065.958,"endTime":2068.75,"body":"for it because it's, uh, ideologically"},{"startTime":2068.75,"endTime":2073.875,"body":"driven at best and financially corrupted"},{"startTime":2073.875,"endTime":2075.166,"body":"in the more common case."},{"startTime":2075.541,"endTime":2077.041,"body":"That's a very dangerous statement."},{"startTime":2077.291,"endTime":2079.666,"body":"I don't relish making it because frankly,"},{"startTime":2079.666,"endTime":2081.458,"body":"I've got kids who have"},{"startTime":2081.458,"endTime":2082.291,"body":"to live in this world."},{"startTime":2083.291,"endTime":2084.916,"body":"So yeah, I'm not,"},{"startTime":2086.5,"endTime":2091.5,"body":"I, I sometimes think I get misunderstood"},{"startTime":2091.5,"endTime":2095.458,"body":"because I rail against"},{"startTime":2095.458,"endTime":2097.666,"body":"the system consistently."},{"startTime":2099.041,"endTime":2102.083,"body":"I want the system to work and I'm not"},{"startTime":2102.083,"endTime":2103.416,"body":"asking for perfection."},{"startTime":2103.875,"endTime":2105.625,"body":"I just want it to work well."},{"startTime":2106.25,"endTime":2109.0,"body":"I want the signal to noise ratio to be"},{"startTime":2109.0,"endTime":2110.583,"body":"good so that we can"},{"startTime":2110.583,"endTime":2112.5,"body":"make progress over time."},{"startTime":2113.0,"endTime":2116.5,"body":"And what I see is a system that, well,"},{"startTime":2116.5,"endTime":2117.416,"body":"frankly, let's talk"},{"startTime":2117.416,"endTime":2118.416,"body":"about the food pyramid."},{"startTime":2119.333,"endTime":2120.0,"body":"How do you feel about"},{"startTime":2120.0,"endTime":2120.875,"body":"the new food pyramid?"},{"startTime":2121.25,"endTime":2121.875,"body":"Oh, I like it."},{"startTime":2121.875,"endTime":2122.041,"body":"Mostly."},{"startTime":2122.25,"endTime":2122.833,"body":"I think it's right."},{"startTime":2123.25,"endTime":2125.291,"body":"But I thought that for, for many years,"},{"startTime":2125.291,"endTime":2126.833,"body":"you were already eating that way, right?"},{"startTime":2127.291,"endTime":2128.75,"body":"I was already in that way too."},{"startTime":2129.708,"endTime":2131.0,"body":"It wasn't that hard."},{"startTime":2131.833,"endTime":2134.833,"body":"And yet what we find is that it was not a"},{"startTime":2134.833,"endTime":2136.458,"body":"major revision of the pyramid."},{"startTime":2136.833,"endTime":2137.708,"body":"It was a flipping."},{"startTime":2138.208,"endTime":2138.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2138.916,"endTime":2140.208,"body":"They had it upside down."},{"startTime":2140.5,"endTime":2141.916,"body":"Let's look at that as an example of"},{"startTime":2141.916,"endTime":2143.25,"body":"science working slowly,"},{"startTime":2143.458,"endTime":2145.0,"body":"but toward the truth, right?"},{"startTime":2145.0,"endTime":2148.541,"body":"The early skeptics in the nineties, Gary"},{"startTime":2148.541,"endTime":2151.458,"body":"Tobs in particular, who was publishing"},{"startTime":2151.458,"endTime":2153.625,"body":"everywhere he could in, you"},{"startTime":2153.625,"endTime":2155.0,"body":"know, in major newspapers,"},{"startTime":2156.375,"endTime":2157.833,"body":"not journals, because he's a journalist,"},{"startTime":2157.833,"endTime":2159.958,"body":"but, but his books were, you know,"},{"startTime":2160.5,"endTime":2162.25,"body":"published by major publishers and so on."},{"startTime":2162.25,"endTime":2164.708,"body":"And then Nina Tykholtz and others picked"},{"startTime":2164.708,"endTime":2166.583,"body":"up the mantle and here we are."},{"startTime":2166.583,"endTime":2166.958,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2166.958,"endTime":2168.625,"body":"It should have happened in the nineties"},{"startTime":2168.625,"endTime":2172.0,"body":"at the, at the latest, but that's how it"},{"startTime":2172.0,"endTime":2173.708,"body":"goes because the, you know, the ideology"},{"startTime":2173.708,"endTime":2175.125,"body":"was so, it wasn't"},{"startTime":2175.125,"endTime":2176.166,"body":"really political ideology."},{"startTime":2176.166,"endTime":2178.375,"body":"It was just, just this, I don't know,"},{"startTime":2178.375,"endTime":2179.625,"body":"this entrenched idea of what"},{"startTime":2179.625,"endTime":2181.0,"body":"nutrition, proper nutrition."},{"startTime":2181.0,"endTime":2181.5,"body":"It was corruption."},{"startTime":2182.5,"endTime":2183.458,"body":"It was corruption overwhelming."},{"startTime":2183.833,"endTime":2185.208,"body":"Oh, because of the food companies."},{"startTime":2185.208,"endTime":2185.416,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2185.416,"endTime":2185.833,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2185.833,"endTime":2186.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2186.041,"endTime":2186.583,"body":"So, all right."},{"startTime":2186.583,"endTime":2187.333,"body":"You like the tobacco"},{"startTime":2187.333,"endTime":2188.833,"body":"companies influencing."},{"startTime":2189.041,"endTime":2190.0,"body":"I think you're skipping a step."},{"startTime":2190.291,"endTime":2190.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2190.5,"endTime":2190.75,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2191.166,"endTime":2191.375,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2192.458,"endTime":2194.75,"body":"Let's suppose that the food pyramid that"},{"startTime":2194.75,"endTime":2197.541,"body":"we had grown up with was arbitrary,"},{"startTime":2199.0,"endTime":2201.333,"body":"that it was generated by a random number"},{"startTime":2201.333,"endTime":2203.625,"body":"generator, either somebody sitting at a"},{"startTime":2203.625,"endTime":2206.916,"body":"desk with some dice or a computer, and"},{"startTime":2206.916,"endTime":2208.458,"body":"they just slapped stuff"},{"startTime":2208.458,"endTime":2209.708,"body":"on the pyramid willy-nilly."},{"startTime":2210.875,"endTime":2214.375,"body":"And then suddenly in 2026, somebody"},{"startTime":2214.375,"endTime":2217.791,"body":"decides to actually look into nutrition"},{"startTime":2217.791,"endTime":2221.0,"body":"and discovers what you and I figured out,"},{"startTime":2221.375,"endTime":2221.916,"body":"even though it's"},{"startTime":2221.916,"endTime":2224.125,"body":"neither of our fields, right?"},{"startTime":2225.291,"endTime":2225.958,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2226.25,"endTime":2228.083,"body":"Suddenly we get a proper food pyramid."},{"startTime":2228.916,"endTime":2231.333,"body":"That's not what happened."},{"startTime":2232.083,"endTime":2234.0,"body":"The food pyramid was"},{"startTime":2234.0,"endTime":2236.25,"body":"literally upside down."},{"startTime":2237.291,"endTime":2239.625,"body":"What we were being told about what to eat"},{"startTime":2239.625,"endTime":2242.0,"body":"was an inversion of what we should eat."},{"startTime":2242.333,"endTime":2246.333,"body":"My point to you would be anytime you see"},{"startTime":2246.333,"endTime":2249.041,"body":"that pattern, what that means is that the"},{"startTime":2249.041,"endTime":2251.333,"body":"right answer was calculated by the system"},{"startTime":2251.333,"endTime":2253.625,"body":"and then somebody took the reciprocal."},{"startTime":2254.541,"endTime":2257.166,"body":"That is incidentally, I know you will"},{"startTime":2257.166,"endTime":2259.583,"body":"disagree with me on this years from now,"},{"startTime":2259.791,"endTime":2261.666,"body":"my expectation is you'll have a food"},{"startTime":2261.666,"endTime":2264.0,"body":"pyramid inversion moment, but that is the"},{"startTime":2264.0,"endTime":2265.416,"body":"exact pattern we saw"},{"startTime":2265.416,"endTime":2267.833,"body":"with the CDC and COVID."},{"startTime":2267.833,"endTime":2271.458,"body":"The CDC had the correct formula for how"},{"startTime":2271.458,"endTime":2274.333,"body":"we should address COVID and"},{"startTime":2274.333,"endTime":2275.416,"body":"they flipped it on its head."},{"startTime":2275.666,"endTime":2277.583,"body":"It was the inverse of what you should do."},{"startTime":2278.583,"endTime":2280.041,"body":"That is not an accident."},{"startTime":2280.375,"endTime":2281.458,"body":"I don't know what it is."},{"startTime":2281.458,"endTime":2281.75,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2282.0,"endTime":2284.0,"body":"I think I tend to go with the"},{"startTime":2284.0,"endTime":2285.5,"body":"incompetence over conspiracy"},{"startTime":2285.5,"endTime":2287.458,"body":"explanation for most things."},{"startTime":2287.666,"endTime":2290.25,"body":"Well, I mean, I think like in the in the"},{"startTime":2290.25,"endTime":2291.208,"body":"nutrition thing, you know, this goes back"},{"startTime":2291.208,"endTime":2295.875,"body":"to the 1950s post World War II and the"},{"startTime":2295.875,"endTime":2296.916,"body":"baby boomers and what"},{"startTime":2296.916,"endTime":2297.916,"body":"are we going to eat?"},{"startTime":2297.916,"endTime":2299.5,"body":"And then Eisenhower has a heart attack."},{"startTime":2299.708,"endTime":2300.333,"body":"What does he do?"},{"startTime":2300.333,"endTime":2301.041,"body":"He eats a lot of meat."},{"startTime":2301.25,"endTime":2302.333,"body":"Oh, yeah, but he smoked."},{"startTime":2303.0,"endTime":2304.541,"body":"Yeah, but you know, smoking is fine"},{"startTime":2304.541,"endTime":2306.0,"body":"because the tobacco companies said, all"},{"startTime":2306.0,"endTime":2306.625,"body":"right, so you're right."},{"startTime":2306.958,"endTime":2308.875,"body":"Tobacco companies corrupted the research"},{"startTime":2308.875,"endTime":2312.5,"body":"on tobacco and the food company."},{"startTime":2312.875,"endTime":2314.625,"body":"But I don't think that to me, the food"},{"startTime":2314.625,"endTime":2317.291,"body":"companies followed suit like, okay, so"},{"startTime":2317.291,"endTime":2317.583,"body":"this is what the government's recommending."},{"startTime":2317.583,"endTime":2321.0,"body":"This is what people are going to want"},{"startTime":2321.0,"endTime":2322.041,"body":"when they come in the supermarket."},{"startTime":2322.875,"endTime":2323.708,"body":"These foods that they're"},{"startTime":2323.708,"endTime":2325.083,"body":"recommending taste like crap."},{"startTime":2325.083,"endTime":2326.416,"body":"So we got to put sugar in"},{"startTime":2326.416,"endTime":2328.541,"body":"it to make it taste good."},{"startTime":2328.916,"endTime":2330.833,"body":"They're just kind of following a market"},{"startTime":2330.833,"endTime":2332.083,"body":"trend rather than we need"},{"startTime":2332.083,"endTime":2334.291,"body":"to buy off the politicians."},{"startTime":2334.625,"endTime":2335.541,"body":"Maybe they did something"},{"startTime":2335.541,"endTime":2337.666,"body":"later with I don't think that's the case."},{"startTime":2337.958,"endTime":2339.458,"body":"Now, this is, of course, speculative."},{"startTime":2340.166,"endTime":2347.0,"body":"But my sense is when a policy is actually"},{"startTime":2347.0,"endTime":2348.708,"body":"in everybody's interest,"},{"startTime":2349.708,"endTime":2350.833,"body":"it easily passes."},{"startTime":2352.083,"endTime":2352.291,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2352.833,"endTime":2354.5,"body":"It doesn't matter whether you're a"},{"startTime":2354.5,"endTime":2355.125,"body":"corrupt cynical"},{"startTime":2355.125,"endTime":2357.0,"body":"politician or an honorable one."},{"startTime":2357.375,"endTime":2359.166,"body":"You have every reason to pass things that"},{"startTime":2359.166,"endTime":2360.125,"body":"are good for everybody,"},{"startTime":2360.791,"endTime":2362.375,"body":"which leaves a remainder."},{"startTime":2363.083,"endTime":2365.875,"body":"Things where what's good for the public"},{"startTime":2365.875,"endTime":2369.916,"body":"is actually not good for"},{"startTime":2369.916,"endTime":2371.375,"body":"some other power structure."},{"startTime":2372.125,"endTime":2374.958,"body":"In those cases, a power structure that"},{"startTime":2374.958,"endTime":2378.041,"body":"has resources at its disposal corrupts"},{"startTime":2378.041,"endTime":2380.541,"body":"the system in order that the system will"},{"startTime":2380.541,"endTime":2382.916,"body":"dispense the advice that would lead"},{"startTime":2382.916,"endTime":2384.916,"body":"people to whatever products are being"},{"startTime":2384.916,"endTime":2386.5,"body":"sold that you shouldn't be eating."},{"startTime":2386.5,"endTime":2387.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2388.0,"endTime":2389.333,"body":"And away from the public interest."},{"startTime":2389.5,"endTime":2390.25,"body":"And what we are finding out, in fact, I"},{"startTime":2390.25,"endTime":2394.791,"body":"would flip the presumption on its head."},{"startTime":2395.5,"endTime":2396.375,"body":"I know that your bias"},{"startTime":2396.375,"endTime":2398.0,"body":"is against conspiracy."},{"startTime":2399.25,"endTime":2400.25,"body":"I believe that that is"},{"startTime":2400.25,"endTime":2401.708,"body":"should be the starting point."},{"startTime":2401.708,"endTime":2403.791,"body":"We should always assume a straightforward"},{"startTime":2403.791,"endTime":2406.875,"body":"explanation and then require some sort of"},{"startTime":2406.875,"endTime":2408.791,"body":"indication that something else may have"},{"startTime":2408.791,"endTime":2409.458,"body":"happened before"},{"startTime":2409.458,"endTime":2411.208,"body":"leaping to such a conclusion."},{"startTime":2412.041,"endTime":2413.5,"body":"But here's the question."},{"startTime":2414.583,"endTime":2418.375,"body":"How good do you imagine the protections"},{"startTime":2418.375,"endTime":2422.333,"body":"are against the are against corruption in"},{"startTime":2422.333,"endTime":2424.166,"body":"the area of, let's say,"},{"startTime":2424.875,"endTime":2427.875,"body":"public health and nutrition?"},{"startTime":2429.75,"endTime":2431.375,"body":"How about childhood education at the"},{"startTime":2431.375,"endTime":2433.083,"body":"Laring Center in Minneapolis?"},{"startTime":2434.75,"endTime":2434.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2435.25,"endTime":2436.125,"body":"Corruption is pretty"},{"startTime":2437.541,"endTime":2438.208,"body":"big problem."},{"startTime":2438.5,"endTime":2438.708,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2438.875,"endTime":2439.083,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2439.416,"endTime":2440.625,"body":"So what do you do about it?"},{"startTime":2440.625,"endTime":2442.791,"body":"Well, you have corruption busters."},{"startTime":2442.791,"endTime":2444.0,"body":"You bring in the Elon"},{"startTime":2444.0,"endTime":2445.5,"body":"Musk, the Doge, you bring it."},{"startTime":2445.5,"endTime":2448.625,"body":"Now they just hired somebody new to be a"},{"startTime":2448.625,"endTime":2450.416,"body":"fraud buster for the US government."},{"startTime":2450.75,"endTime":2450.958,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2451.791,"endTime":2453.375,"body":"Back to the peer review."},{"startTime":2453.791,"endTime":2454.0,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2454.083,"endTime":2455.416,"body":"So it's corrupted."},{"startTime":2455.416,"endTime":2456.0,"body":"There's problems."},{"startTime":2456.541,"endTime":2456.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2457.083,"endTime":2457.291,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2457.791,"endTime":2460.416,"body":"What do you propose as the alternative?"},{"startTime":2461.666,"endTime":2462.0,"body":"Peer review."},{"startTime":2462.458,"endTime":2463.333,"body":"I mean, but not peer"},{"startTime":2463.333,"endTime":2465.416,"body":"review in the way that we do it."},{"startTime":2465.416,"endTime":2466.916,"body":"I would do peer review."},{"startTime":2467.125,"endTime":2469.583,"body":"So let me just say, for those who heard"},{"startTime":2469.583,"endTime":2470.75,"body":"that and thought, what?"},{"startTime":2471.083,"endTime":2472.375,"body":"Bret's advocating for peer review."},{"startTime":2473.041,"endTime":2475.625,"body":"I'm advocating for review by peers, not"},{"startTime":2475.625,"endTime":2477.5,"body":"the system that goes under that name."},{"startTime":2478.333,"endTime":2480.083,"body":"If I was building that system, I would"},{"startTime":2480.083,"endTime":2481.416,"body":"change a number of things."},{"startTime":2481.916,"endTime":2484.416,"body":"One, anonymity has no place because for"},{"startTime":2484.416,"endTime":2485.958,"body":"one thing, it doesn't work."},{"startTime":2487.041,"endTime":2487.25,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2487.416,"endTime":2489.208,"body":"Reciprocity networks break out."},{"startTime":2489.458,"endTime":2491.0,"body":"People in general know who's reviewed"},{"startTime":2491.0,"endTime":2494.0,"body":"their work because the circles that these"},{"startTime":2494.0,"endTime":2495.75,"body":"things are published in are small."},{"startTime":2496.875,"endTime":2499.166,"body":"So anonymity has to go."},{"startTime":2499.5,"endTime":2500.375,"body":"And they even ask you"},{"startTime":2500.375,"endTime":2501.958,"body":"to recommend reviewers."},{"startTime":2502.708,"endTime":2504.333,"body":"When I review papers, I"},{"startTime":2504.333,"endTime":2505.375,"body":"always know who the author is."},{"startTime":2505.375,"endTime":2506.541,"body":"Could you just look at the bibliography?"},{"startTime":2507.083,"endTime":2508.833,"body":"And there's one name that appears like 27"},{"startTime":2508.833,"endTime":2510.25,"body":"times like, Oh, that's the author."},{"startTime":2510.833,"endTime":2513.25,"body":"It's all too easy to figure out."},{"startTime":2514.25,"endTime":2517.416,"body":"So I would have open review."},{"startTime":2518.333,"endTime":2525.708,"body":"I would have no bar to publishing things"},{"startTime":2525.708,"endTime":2528.083,"body":"because they sound outlandish."},{"startTime":2529.75,"endTime":2533.916,"body":"At one time, it was necessary to do some"},{"startTime":2533.916,"endTime":2536.25,"body":"sort of quality control because ink and"},{"startTime":2536.25,"endTime":2537.333,"body":"paper were expensive."},{"startTime":2538.333,"endTime":2539.875,"body":"But pixels are not expensive."},{"startTime":2540.208,"endTime":2542.041,"body":"And there is no reason that just because"},{"startTime":2542.041,"endTime":2544.5,"body":"somebody is too far ahead of the curve,"},{"startTime":2545.0,"endTime":2546.833,"body":"and therefore their idea sounds"},{"startTime":2546.833,"endTime":2549.875,"body":"outlandish, to bar them from lodging it."},{"startTime":2551.416,"endTime":2554.041,"body":"I would, the fact of"},{"startTime":2554.041,"endTime":2556.458,"body":"peer review being uh,"},{"startTime":2557.75,"endTime":2561.75,"body":"de-anonymized would also force people who"},{"startTime":2561.75,"endTime":2563.5,"body":"run down their competitors"},{"startTime":2563.5,"endTime":2566.083,"body":"in peer review to actually"},{"startTime":2567.375,"endTime":2570.5,"body":"risk reputational harm if they have done"},{"startTime":2570.5,"endTime":2572.625,"body":"so and done so wrongly."},{"startTime":2573.666,"endTime":2575.708,"body":"So I want people to"},{"startTime":2575.708,"endTime":2576.833,"body":"have skin in the game."},{"startTime":2576.833,"endTime":2579.791,"body":"What if they say this paper is of low"},{"startTime":2579.791,"endTime":2580.75,"body":"quality and here are"},{"startTime":2580.75,"endTime":2581.625,"body":"the problems with it."},{"startTime":2581.625,"endTime":2584.0,"body":"And it turns out to be correct that the"},{"startTime":2584.0,"endTime":2586.666,"body":"people who reviewed it badly, uh, have"},{"startTime":2586.666,"endTime":2588.458,"body":"their reputations decremented and the"},{"startTime":2588.458,"endTime":2590.583,"body":"person who saw it well ahead has their"},{"startTime":2590.583,"endTime":2593.083,"body":"reputation, um, elevated."},{"startTime":2593.625,"endTime":2595.0,"body":"And maybe most crucially,"},{"startTime":2596.041,"endTime":2599.666,"body":"I would have review done not by the"},{"startTime":2599.666,"endTime":2600.916,"body":"people in your"},{"startTime":2600.916,"endTime":2602.833,"body":"immediate quadrant of the field."},{"startTime":2604.0,"endTime":2606.916,"body":"I would have peer review done by people"},{"startTime":2606.916,"endTime":2610.375,"body":"in some sort of adjacent quadrant, people"},{"startTime":2610.375,"endTime":2612.166,"body":"who are in a position to understand what"},{"startTime":2612.166,"endTime":2615.166,"body":"you're saying, but not part of a"},{"startTime":2615.166,"endTime":2617.0,"body":"reciprocity network in your"},{"startTime":2617.0,"endTime":2618.375,"body":"little corner of the field."},{"startTime":2620.208,"endTime":2621.5,"body":"And that has two advantages."},{"startTime":2621.75,"endTime":2624.791,"body":"One, it breaks up the temptation to give"},{"startTime":2624.791,"endTime":2626.125,"body":"somebody a positive review."},{"startTime":2626.125,"endTime":2627.166,"body":"So they'll give you a"},{"startTime":2627.166,"endTime":2628.916,"body":"positive review on your next paper."},{"startTime":2629.625,"endTime":2630.916,"body":"And it also forces you to"},{"startTime":2630.916,"endTime":2632.458,"body":"explain stuff in English."},{"startTime":2633.625,"endTime":2635.708,"body":"Far too much poor work"},{"startTime":2635.708,"endTime":2638.916,"body":"is disguised by jargon."},{"startTime":2640.375,"endTime":2642.166,"body":"And if you have to explain it, so"},{"startTime":2642.166,"endTime":2643.541,"body":"somebody who's not in your immediate"},{"startTime":2643.541,"endTime":2645.0,"body":"field understands what you're talking"},{"startTime":2645.0,"endTime":2647.5,"body":"about, it will weed out some of the"},{"startTime":2647.5,"endTime":2649.75,"body":"people who are basically distributing"},{"startTime":2649.75,"endTime":2652.291,"body":"word salad in the guise of science."},{"startTime":2652.291,"endTime":2654.333,"body":"And it will elevate those who actually"},{"startTime":2654.333,"endTime":2656.083,"body":"have a point that's sufficiently good"},{"startTime":2656.083,"endTime":2657.041,"body":"that it can be stated."},{"startTime":2658.375,"endTime":2658.541,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2659.541,"endTime":2661.208,"body":"So, um, let me just use a"},{"startTime":2661.208,"endTime":2662.5,"body":"personal example for you."},{"startTime":2662.5,"endTime":2663.625,"body":"You you've been on Rogan a"},{"startTime":2663.625,"endTime":2665.208,"body":"lot, as has your brother."},{"startTime":2665.208,"endTime":2667.583,"body":"That seems to be the place where you"},{"startTime":2667.583,"endTime":2670.375,"body":"introduce new ideas as if that's the peer"},{"startTime":2670.375,"endTime":2671.875,"body":"review platform and"},{"startTime":2671.875,"endTime":2673.958,"body":"you're hoping who's watching."},{"startTime":2674.458,"endTime":2677.041,"body":"So let's say you present your, your, um,"},{"startTime":2677.041,"endTime":2678.25,"body":"sorry to get it wrong lineage"},{"startTime":2678.25,"endTime":2681.416,"body":"selection, lineage selection."},{"startTime":2681.833,"endTime":2682.0,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2682.625,"endTime":2683.458,"body":"Now, Joe, he's not"},{"startTime":2683.458,"endTime":2684.208,"body":"going to know any of that."},{"startTime":2684.208,"endTime":2685.583,"body":"He doesn't know this and that."},{"startTime":2685.833,"endTime":2686.0,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2686.208,"endTime":2688.541,"body":"So are you hoping that somebody listening"},{"startTime":2688.541,"endTime":2690.291,"body":"or watching is an evolutionary biologist"},{"startTime":2690.291,"endTime":2691.708,"body":"goes, Oh, that's a great idea."},{"startTime":2691.708,"endTime":2693.75,"body":"I'm going to put that to the test or"},{"startTime":2693.75,"endTime":2694.333,"body":"something like that."},{"startTime":2694.541,"endTime":2695.625,"body":"In other words, how can you reach the"},{"startTime":2695.625,"endTime":2697.625,"body":"people, the professionals that will know"},{"startTime":2697.625,"endTime":2698.75,"body":"what you're talking about?"},{"startTime":2699.458,"endTime":2701.0,"body":"Um, that, so you're, you're"},{"startTime":2701.0,"endTime":2702.291,"body":"skeptical of the journals."},{"startTime":2702.291,"endTime":2702.833,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2703.416,"endTime":2705.125,"body":"But, so I've just done this."},{"startTime":2705.458,"endTime":2706.291,"body":"I've just done this."},{"startTime":2706.291,"endTime":2709.125,"body":"My, my most recent, uh, Rogan appearance."},{"startTime":2709.5,"endTime":2710.75,"body":"I know I, I watched."},{"startTime":2711.0,"endTime":2711.208,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2711.833,"endTime":2715.625,"body":"I put forward an idea that I think is"},{"startTime":2716.666,"endTime":2717.5,"body":"pretty interesting."},{"startTime":2717.75,"endTime":2720.333,"body":"And what I was hoping was I wasn't really"},{"startTime":2720.333,"endTime":2722.916,"body":"expecting professors to be"},{"startTime":2722.916,"endTime":2724.625,"body":"listening to Rogan though."},{"startTime":2724.625,"endTime":2726.5,"body":"I would bet some secretly do."},{"startTime":2727.458,"endTime":2730.791,"body":"Um, but I was imagining that graduate"},{"startTime":2730.791,"endTime":2735.375,"body":"students might spot it and have, I mean,"},{"startTime":2735.375,"endTime":2737.708,"body":"look, if this had happened back when I"},{"startTime":2737.708,"endTime":2740.125,"body":"was in graduate school, we would have had"},{"startTime":2740.125,"endTime":2743.416,"body":"some intense discussions over lunch about"},{"startTime":2743.416,"endTime":2745.5,"body":"whether this idea was valid, whether"},{"startTime":2745.5,"endTime":2747.875,"body":"there were things that I got wrong,"},{"startTime":2748.125,"endTime":2750.666,"body":"whether there were things that I didn't"},{"startTime":2750.666,"endTime":2753.5,"body":"yet spot that argue in favor of it."},{"startTime":2753.791,"endTime":2755.375,"body":"I was expecting a certain amount of that."},{"startTime":2755.583,"endTime":2758.833,"body":"And I did get one bit of feedback from"},{"startTime":2758.833,"endTime":2761.458,"body":"somebody who studies the, uh, exact"},{"startTime":2761.458,"endTime":2763.583,"body":"genetic phenomenon at the core of my"},{"startTime":2763.583,"endTime":2767.083,"body":"idea, variable number tandem repeats, who"},{"startTime":2767.083,"endTime":2768.916,"body":"was very favorable to what I had said,"},{"startTime":2769.125,"endTime":2770.375,"body":"interested in further discussion."},{"startTime":2770.75,"endTime":2773.208,"body":"So anyway, but the thing, I think the"},{"startTime":2773.208,"endTime":2774.541,"body":"right answer to your question, Michael,"},{"startTime":2775.083,"endTime":2779.833,"body":"is I wasn't really expecting Joe Rogan to"},{"startTime":2779.833,"endTime":2781.958,"body":"be the substitute for a proper"},{"startTime":2781.958,"endTime":2784.0,"body":"journal or biology department."},{"startTime":2784.458,"endTime":2786.875,"body":"And in fact, I think I said that I don't"},{"startTime":2786.875,"endTime":2788.083,"body":"expect that to be the case."},{"startTime":2788.083,"endTime":2792.625,"body":"It's a lousy substitute, but it's at"},{"startTime":2792.625,"endTime":2796.625,"body":"least not constrained by corrupted"},{"startTime":2797.375,"endTime":2801.916,"body":"cowards who are frankly so arrogant."},{"startTime":2801.916,"endTime":2802.833,"body":"They don't even realize"},{"startTime":2802.833,"endTime":2803.916,"body":"they're making an error."},{"startTime":2805.166,"endTime":2806.166,"body":"And, you know, again, I'm"},{"startTime":2806.166,"endTime":2807.875,"body":"sure you hear in that, um,"},{"startTime":2809.875,"endTime":2811.875,"body":"too much of a dismissal of an entire"},{"startTime":2811.875,"endTime":2815.75,"body":"field, but I lived in that field and, um,"},{"startTime":2816.75,"endTime":2819.375,"body":"maybe a contrasting example would be, I"},{"startTime":2819.375,"endTime":2820.833,"body":"watched your public"},{"startTime":2820.833,"endTime":2822.458,"body":"event with Richard Dawkins."},{"startTime":2822.458,"endTime":2823.333,"body":"I think it was in Seattle."},{"startTime":2823.75,"endTime":2825.041,"body":"No, no, I was in Chicago."},{"startTime":2825.75,"endTime":2826.5,"body":"Oh, Chicago."},{"startTime":2826.5,"endTime":2828.291,"body":"Was that a Pangburn event?"},{"startTime":2828.541,"endTime":2828.75,"body":"I forget."},{"startTime":2829.541,"endTime":2830.791,"body":"You were the, you were the,"},{"startTime":2831.541,"endTime":2832.416,"body":"but it was an in conversation."},{"startTime":2832.833,"endTime":2834.125,"body":"You weren't just interviewing him, right?"},{"startTime":2834.125,"endTime":2834.75,"body":"You guys could have."},{"startTime":2835.083,"endTime":2835.291,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2835.708,"endTime":2838.333,"body":"So, um, I, if I recall you floated past"},{"startTime":2838.333,"endTime":2841.333,"body":"him, your idea of, uh, of an example of a"},{"startTime":2841.333,"endTime":2844.0,"body":"extended phenotype, which he then said,"},{"startTime":2844.0,"endTime":2845.208,"body":"no, that's incorrect."},{"startTime":2845.208,"endTime":2845.75,"body":"And here's why."},{"startTime":2846.166,"endTime":2847.166,"body":"And then you moved, I think"},{"startTime":2847.166,"endTime":2848.416,"body":"you moved on to another topic."},{"startTime":2848.875,"endTime":2851.5,"body":"And I just, as an example, if you think"},{"startTime":2851.5,"endTime":2853.208,"body":"there is an example of the extended"},{"startTime":2853.208,"endTime":2854.75,"body":"phenotype that Richard's gotten wrong,"},{"startTime":2855.333,"endTime":2856.5,"body":"you should publish that."},{"startTime":2856.5,"endTime":2858.375,"body":"I mean, you should write it up and, and"},{"startTime":2858.375,"endTime":2859.791,"body":"say, I'm challenging"},{"startTime":2859.791,"endTime":2861.125,"body":"Richard Dawkins theory here."},{"startTime":2861.125,"endTime":2863.5,"body":"And here's my theory, a book peer review"},{"startTime":2863.5,"endTime":2865.458,"body":"journal, I don't know, popular magazine"},{"startTime":2865.458,"endTime":2867.541,"body":"article, something, because it's Dawkins,"},{"startTime":2867.791,"endTime":2869.083,"body":"you would certainly get some attention."},{"startTime":2869.541,"endTime":2870.0,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2870.0,"endTime":2873.125,"body":"But where do you go from public event to"},{"startTime":2873.125,"endTime":2874.833,"body":"now I'm going to move"},{"startTime":2874.833,"endTime":2875.833,"body":"on to some other topic."},{"startTime":2876.125,"endTime":2877.5,"body":"How can we resolve this?"},{"startTime":2878.125,"endTime":2882.708,"body":"So the problem here, Michael, is that my"},{"startTime":2882.708,"endTime":2886.458,"body":"interaction with the published literature"},{"startTime":2887.541,"endTime":2891.791,"body":"began with my work on telomeres,"},{"startTime":2892.0,"endTime":2893.291,"body":"senescence, and cancer."},{"startTime":2894.875,"endTime":2900.166,"body":"And I believe that what I attempt to"},{"startTime":2900.166,"endTime":2904.625,"body":"publish ultimately did publish in the"},{"startTime":2904.625,"endTime":2906.375,"body":"journal of experimental gerontology, but"},{"startTime":2906.375,"endTime":2908.541,"body":"I believe that what I intended to publish"},{"startTime":2908.541,"endTime":2912.75,"body":"sent to nature, sent to nature with a"},{"startTime":2912.75,"endTime":2915.875,"body":"strong recommendation from George"},{"startTime":2915.875,"endTime":2919.375,"body":"Williams, the author of the evolutionary"},{"startTime":2919.375,"endTime":2921.708,"body":"theory of senescence, which still stands"},{"startTime":2921.708,"endTime":2923.5,"body":"to this day, they"},{"startTime":2923.5,"endTime":2925.0,"body":"rejected without review."},{"startTime":2926.583,"endTime":2930.791,"body":"And my then collaborator, Carol Grider,"},{"startTime":2931.541,"endTime":2934.208,"body":"appears to have attempted to thwart its"},{"startTime":2934.208,"endTime":2937.875,"body":"publication anywhere because it contained"},{"startTime":2938.75,"endTime":2943.0,"body":"a, an explosive discovery on which she"},{"startTime":2943.0,"endTime":2947.041,"body":"and I collaborated that she went on to"},{"startTime":2947.041,"endTime":2949.541,"body":"profit by, by not telling the world."},{"startTime":2950.5,"endTime":2953.916,"body":"She kept it what she called in house so"},{"startTime":2953.916,"endTime":2955.625,"body":"that she could predict the result of"},{"startTime":2955.625,"endTime":2956.375,"body":"experiments that"},{"startTime":2956.375,"endTime":2957.708,"body":"others would not be able to."},{"startTime":2958.208,"endTime":2959.791,"body":"And basically, instead of sharing this"},{"startTime":2959.791,"endTime":2963.0,"body":"vital piece of information, which had"},{"startTime":2963.0,"endTime":2964.833,"body":"implications for human health and"},{"startTime":2964.833,"endTime":2966.25,"body":"wellbeing, in other words,"},{"startTime":2967.625,"endTime":2969.75,"body":"keeping dangerous drugs off the market,"},{"startTime":2969.75,"endTime":2970.833,"body":"instead of sharing that piece of"},{"startTime":2970.833,"endTime":2973.041,"body":"information, she kept it to herself in"},{"startTime":2973.041,"endTime":2976.75,"body":"order to elevate her, her own career."},{"startTime":2977.333,"endTime":2980.958,"body":"So that experience, watching my work"},{"startTime":2980.958,"endTime":2984.625,"body":"silenced by a competitor at a major"},{"startTime":2984.625,"endTime":2988.291,"body":"journal, in spite of the fact that one of"},{"startTime":2988.291,"endTime":2990.75,"body":"the leading evolutionary biologists of"},{"startTime":2990.75,"endTime":2993.125,"body":"his generation recommended that they take"},{"startTime":2993.125,"endTime":2995.708,"body":"it very seriously, left me with very"},{"startTime":2995.708,"endTime":2998.916,"body":"little respect for the"},{"startTime":2998.916,"endTime":3000.958,"body":"institution of peer review."},{"startTime":3001.916,"endTime":3003.333,"body":"You're asking, well, what"},{"startTime":3003.333,"endTime":3004.583,"body":"do you want to do instead?"},{"startTime":3005.125,"endTime":3008.0,"body":"And my point to you is, look, you want to"},{"startTime":3008.0,"endTime":3009.583,"body":"put me in charge of building a system"},{"startTime":3009.583,"endTime":3010.916,"body":"that works, I'll take that"},{"startTime":3010.916,"endTime":3012.375,"body":"question and I'll run with it."},{"startTime":3012.958,"endTime":3014.666,"body":"But I'm not in that position."},{"startTime":3015.458,"endTime":3017.541,"body":"So what will I do instead?"},{"startTime":3017.75,"endTime":3020.875,"body":"Will I waste my life talking to a tiny"},{"startTime":3020.875,"endTime":3023.416,"body":"number of peers who have the ability to"},{"startTime":3023.416,"endTime":3025.208,"body":"shut down what I say,"},{"startTime":3025.208,"endTime":3027.125,"body":"true, false or otherwise?"},{"startTime":3027.75,"endTime":3028.541,"body":"Why would I do that?"},{"startTime":3029.0,"endTime":3031.541,"body":"Okay, just a point of clarification,"},{"startTime":3031.541,"endTime":3032.541,"body":"because I don't know this story."},{"startTime":3033.0,"endTime":3033.916,"body":"If she was listening to"},{"startTime":3033.916,"endTime":3035.833,"body":"this, what would her response be?"},{"startTime":3036.041,"endTime":3037.666,"body":"Something like, no, I never did that."},{"startTime":3037.666,"endTime":3040.0,"body":"Or he misinterpreted what I was doing?"},{"startTime":3040.25,"endTime":3044.208,"body":"Well, first of all, at the point that I"},{"startTime":3044.208,"endTime":3046.958,"body":"went to publish my work, and I discovered"},{"startTime":3046.958,"endTime":3050.583,"body":"that she was secretly publishing our"},{"startTime":3050.583,"endTime":3054.458,"body":"collaboration without my name anywhere on"},{"startTime":3054.458,"endTime":3056.666,"body":"it, she pretended that the"},{"startTime":3056.666,"endTime":3058.208,"body":"conversations had not happened."},{"startTime":3058.875,"endTime":3059.708,"body":"Now you will note,"},{"startTime":3060.125,"endTime":3061.541,"body":"she's welcome to sue me."},{"startTime":3063.166,"endTime":3064.708,"body":"We will find out exactly"},{"startTime":3064.708,"endTime":3066.041,"body":"what happened in discovery."},{"startTime":3066.958,"endTime":3068.708,"body":"And as is always the case, as"},{"startTime":3068.708,"endTime":3070.333,"body":"extraordinary as the story I'm telling"},{"startTime":3070.333,"endTime":3072.583,"body":"you is, I'm telling it like it happened."},{"startTime":3073.5,"endTime":3075.458,"body":"I have the evidence and"},{"startTime":3078.25,"endTime":3079.916,"body":"But usually these things are played out"},{"startTime":3079.916,"endTime":3082.25,"body":"in, you know, letters to the editor, some"},{"startTime":3082.25,"endTime":3084.25,"body":"other journal, whatever this journal was"},{"startTime":3084.25,"endTime":3086.0,"body":"there must have competitive competing"},{"startTime":3086.0,"endTime":3087.5,"body":"journals who would love this story."},{"startTime":3087.791,"endTime":3090.458,"body":"Yes, but I, this is why I said"},{"startTime":3090.458,"endTime":3092.25,"body":"ultimately, I did publish this work."},{"startTime":3092.25,"endTime":3093.291,"body":"And there's a story to"},{"startTime":3093.291,"endTime":3094.333,"body":"how it got published."},{"startTime":3094.333,"endTime":3095.625,"body":"Because when nature"},{"startTime":3095.625,"endTime":3097.166,"body":"turned this work down,"},{"startTime":3098.208,"endTime":3099.833,"body":"I do not know for sure"},{"startTime":3099.833,"endTime":3101.458,"body":"because he is now dead."},{"startTime":3101.458,"endTime":3103.916,"body":"But I believe George Williams approached"},{"startTime":3103.916,"endTime":3106.625,"body":"the Journal of Experimental Gerontology,"},{"startTime":3106.875,"endTime":3108.625,"body":"told them what had happened."},{"startTime":3110.041,"endTime":3112.208,"body":"They solicited the paper."},{"startTime":3114.25,"endTime":3116.666,"body":"I trying to be"},{"startTime":3117.958,"endTime":3120.25,"body":"the scientist I was told I was supposed"},{"startTime":3120.25,"endTime":3123.416,"body":"to be recommended reviewers, including"},{"startTime":3123.416,"endTime":3126.333,"body":"Carol Greider, my collaborator."},{"startTime":3127.875,"endTime":3129.5,"body":"They sent it to her."},{"startTime":3130.333,"endTime":3134.458,"body":"She wrote a scathing review of my paper,"},{"startTime":3134.791,"endTime":3138.208,"body":"just point after point after point, and"},{"startTime":3138.208,"endTime":3141.041,"body":"they were preposterous."},{"startTime":3143.375,"endTime":3145.375,"body":"At the point, I finally worked up the"},{"startTime":3145.375,"endTime":3148.166,"body":"courage to call out this leading light of"},{"startTime":3148.166,"endTime":3149.25,"body":"the field and to tell"},{"startTime":3149.25,"endTime":3150.625,"body":"the editors of the journal,"},{"startTime":3153.791,"endTime":3156.25,"body":"Carol or whoever has reviewed this paper,"},{"startTime":3156.25,"endTime":3157.708,"body":"I didn't name her because I didn't"},{"startTime":3157.708,"endTime":3159.416,"body":"officially know who it had been."},{"startTime":3161.916,"endTime":3163.583,"body":"Whoever reviewed this paper does not"},{"startTime":3163.583,"endTime":3164.708,"body":"understand the material."},{"startTime":3165.583,"endTime":3168.041,"body":"The review, the editors are welcome to"},{"startTime":3168.041,"endTime":3170.125,"body":"point to any point she makes, and I will"},{"startTime":3170.125,"endTime":3172.666,"body":"send back the proper response."},{"startTime":3172.666,"endTime":3175.083,"body":"But there are too many preposterous"},{"startTime":3175.083,"endTime":3177.125,"body":"claims here to address them all."},{"startTime":3177.791,"endTime":3179.791,"body":"I sent that back, and within"},{"startTime":3179.791,"endTime":3181.541,"body":"minutes, the journal published."},{"startTime":3182.0,"endTime":3183.666,"body":"They sent back an email and they said"},{"startTime":3183.666,"endTime":3185.458,"body":"they didn't, it was not electronic at the"},{"startTime":3185.458,"endTime":3187.375,"body":"time, but they sent back an email that"},{"startTime":3187.375,"endTime":3188.791,"body":"says accepted for publication."},{"startTime":3189.5,"endTime":3192.041,"body":"So the editors of that journal actually"},{"startTime":3192.041,"endTime":3195.125,"body":"overrode peer review because they"},{"startTime":3195.125,"endTime":3196.625,"body":"understood the deeper story."},{"startTime":3197.583,"endTime":3199.083,"body":"Now, strangely,"},{"startTime":3200.166,"endTime":3202.333,"body":"I thought that that was a one-off"},{"startTime":3202.333,"endTime":3207.0,"body":"experience until Eric later pointed me to"},{"startTime":3207.0,"endTime":3209.375,"body":"the book, The Emperor of Scent."},{"startTime":3209.708,"endTime":3210.458,"body":"Have you read this book?"},{"startTime":3211.375,"endTime":3213.166,"body":"I haven't read, let's"},{"startTime":3213.166,"endTime":3215.333,"body":"see, I read parts of it."},{"startTime":3215.5,"endTime":3216.458,"body":"No, I think I just saw"},{"startTime":3216.458,"endTime":3217.583,"body":"a lecture by the guy."},{"startTime":3217.583,"endTime":3221.083,"body":"He was the New York Times reviewer of"},{"startTime":3221.083,"endTime":3222.208,"body":"perfumes or whatever."},{"startTime":3222.208,"endTime":3222.458,"body":"I think."},{"startTime":3222.666,"endTime":3223.041,"body":"Luca Turin."},{"startTime":3223.583,"endTime":3223.791,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3223.916,"endTime":3224.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3224.166,"endTime":3224.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3224.416,"endTime":3225.208,"body":"Oh, so interesting."},{"startTime":3225.583,"endTime":3225.791,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3225.916,"endTime":3226.041,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3226.041,"endTime":3227.625,"body":"Oh, I highly recommend this book."},{"startTime":3227.625,"endTime":3228.208,"body":"You'll love it."},{"startTime":3228.625,"endTime":3232.25,"body":"But he tells a story in his own case that"},{"startTime":3232.458,"endTime":3234.0,"body":"mirrors the story that I"},{"startTime":3234.0,"endTime":3235.0,"body":"lived when Eric read it."},{"startTime":3235.0,"endTime":3236.291,"body":"He called me up."},{"startTime":3236.291,"endTime":3237.666,"body":"He said, \"Bret, you've got to read this."},{"startTime":3237.916,"endTime":3239.083,"body":"This happened to somebody else.\""},{"startTime":3239.916,"endTime":3242.958,"body":"So anyway, the idea of editors overriding"},{"startTime":3242.958,"endTime":3245.0,"body":"peer review because what's going on in"},{"startTime":3245.0,"endTime":3246.625,"body":"peer review is that competitors are"},{"startTime":3246.625,"endTime":3248.25,"body":"snuffing each other out is"},{"startTime":3248.25,"endTime":3250.166,"body":"apparently not all that rare."},{"startTime":3250.75,"endTime":3252.208,"body":"And in the case of my"},{"startTime":3252.208,"endTime":3254.541,"body":"work, what was on the line?"},{"startTime":3254.583,"endTime":3257.5,"body":"Human health, right?"},{"startTime":3257.916,"endTime":3259.958,"body":"Dangerous drugs, mice that were being"},{"startTime":3259.958,"endTime":3262.583,"body":"raised to test drug safety that were"},{"startTime":3262.583,"endTime":3263.458,"body":"incapable of telling"},{"startTime":3263.458,"endTime":3264.625,"body":"you that a drug was toxic."},{"startTime":3265.875,"endTime":3268.458,"body":"So anyway, I don't know"},{"startTime":3268.458,"endTime":3269.833,"body":"why we focused on the story."},{"startTime":3270.208,"endTime":3272.0,"body":"Well, but when was that?"},{"startTime":3272.0,"endTime":3272.708,"body":"How long ago was this?"},{"startTime":3273.541,"endTime":3274.583,"body":"The, my paper was"},{"startTime":3274.583,"endTime":3277.541,"body":"ultimately published in 2002."},{"startTime":3279.291,"endTime":3284.916,"body":"The work was completed in 1999."},{"startTime":3286.958,"endTime":3287.0,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":3287.0,"endTime":3287.375,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3287.375,"endTime":3288.041,"body":"So long time ago."},{"startTime":3288.041,"endTime":3289.875,"body":"Well, you know, there's journalists that"},{"startTime":3289.875,"endTime":3291.875,"body":"cover these kinds of scientific disputes."},{"startTime":3292.416,"endTime":3294.416,"body":"You know, you go back to Leibniz and"},{"startTime":3294.416,"endTime":3296.791,"body":"Newton over the calculus and Wallace and"},{"startTime":3296.791,"endTime":3299.625,"body":"Darwin over natural selection and I don't"},{"startTime":3299.625,"endTime":3301.833,"body":"know, Crick and Watson and, and, and the"},{"startTime":3301.875,"endTime":3304.083,"body":"other, you know, founders of that field"},{"startTime":3304.083,"endTime":3305.375,"body":"and so on, but these"},{"startTime":3305.375,"endTime":3306.458,"body":"things get played out."},{"startTime":3306.666,"endTime":3308.083,"body":"I mean, you know, it's just, it gets"},{"startTime":3308.083,"endTime":3309.5,"body":"resolved at some point."},{"startTime":3311.708,"endTime":3313.208,"body":"I hate to be the guy to do this to you"},{"startTime":3313.208,"endTime":3315.25,"body":"because as I say, I really appreciate the"},{"startTime":3315.25,"endTime":3316.958,"body":"role that you play in the world holding"},{"startTime":3316.958,"endTime":3318.041,"body":"people like me,"},{"startTime":3318.041,"endTime":3319.125,"body":"holding our feet to the fire."},{"startTime":3319.916,"endTime":3321.625,"body":"However, do you think I"},{"startTime":3321.625,"endTime":3322.541,"body":"didn't go to journalists?"},{"startTime":3323.125,"endTime":3323.875,"body":"I don't know what you did."},{"startTime":3324.208,"endTime":3326.333,"body":"I went, I went to numerous journalists."},{"startTime":3327.333,"endTime":3328.208,"body":"I had the same"},{"startTime":3328.208,"endTime":3330.0,"body":"experience over and over again."},{"startTime":3330.75,"endTime":3330.958,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3331.208,"endTime":3332.625,"body":"I would tell them my story."},{"startTime":3332.625,"endTime":3334.125,"body":"I would show them the evidence."},{"startTime":3334.791,"endTime":3337.958,"body":"They would be flabbergasted, fascinated."},{"startTime":3339.375,"endTime":3341.875,"body":"They would say, who can I call to find"},{"startTime":3341.875,"endTime":3343.083,"body":"out if this is really true?"},{"startTime":3343.375,"endTime":3345.291,"body":"And I would say, I don't know who you can"},{"startTime":3345.291,"endTime":3348.25,"body":"call because reciprocity networks, blah,"},{"startTime":3348.25,"endTime":3349.041,"body":"blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":3349.583,"endTime":3351.666,"body":"They would call some friends somewhere."},{"startTime":3353.25,"endTime":3354.083,"body":"And the next thing I"},{"startTime":3354.083,"endTime":3355.958,"body":"know, they would ghost me."},{"startTime":3357.125,"endTime":3358.875,"body":"It happened so many times."},{"startTime":3361.083,"endTime":3363.125,"body":"So what I'm telling you is"},{"startTime":3364.916,"endTime":3368.0,"body":"the process that we"},{"startTime":3368.0,"endTime":3373.333,"body":"believe exists is a cargo cult."},{"startTime":3375.041,"endTime":3379.5,"body":"It is embedded within a network of people"},{"startTime":3379.708,"endTime":3383.666,"body":"who are largely cynical and careerist,"},{"startTime":3383.666,"endTime":3386.708,"body":"who have an interest in shutting down"},{"startTime":3386.708,"endTime":3388.708,"body":"interlopers who are not"},{"startTime":3388.708,"endTime":3389.916,"body":"under anyone's control."},{"startTime":3391.708,"endTime":3393.5,"body":"I don't like saying that."},{"startTime":3394.208,"endTime":3397.416,"body":"It doesn't feel comfortable because, hey,"},{"startTime":3397.416,"endTime":3398.458,"body":"I trained as a scientist."},{"startTime":3398.958,"endTime":3400.208,"body":"I want to believe in the system."},{"startTime":3400.208,"endTime":3401.916,"body":"I want to say, ah, they screwed up there,"},{"startTime":3401.916,"endTime":3404.583,"body":"but here's a place where, you know, the"},{"startTime":3404.583,"endTime":3405.458,"body":"light shine through."},{"startTime":3406.166,"endTime":3407.0,"body":"I can't say it"},{"startTime":3407.0,"endTime":3408.125,"body":"because I've seen too much."},{"startTime":3408.416,"endTime":3409.5,"body":"And you keep asking me,"},{"startTime":3410.458,"endTime":3412.208,"body":"well, why don't you do this?"},{"startTime":3412.75,"endTime":3414.833,"body":"Or, you know, what"},{"startTime":3414.833,"endTime":3416.083,"body":"should we be doing instead?"},{"startTime":3416.083,"endTime":3417.333,"body":"And the answer is, well, I"},{"startTime":3417.333,"endTime":3418.541,"body":"can answer those questions."},{"startTime":3419.125,"endTime":3420.458,"body":"Why am I not doing it?"},{"startTime":3420.458,"endTime":3423.833,"body":"Because I did it and I saw a shocking"},{"startTime":3423.833,"endTime":3426.458,"body":"story of what happens when an"},{"startTime":3426.458,"endTime":3428.458,"body":"evolutionary biologist stumbles into a"},{"startTime":3428.458,"endTime":3429.083,"body":"realm where there's"},{"startTime":3429.083,"endTime":3430.291,"body":"actually money at stake."},{"startTime":3431.458,"endTime":3431.625,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3431.625,"endTime":3432.541,"body":"That's what I think happened."},{"startTime":3433.541,"endTime":3434.5,"body":"So that's"},{"startTime":3434.5,"endTime":3436.166,"body":"why I'm not that she,"},{"startTime":3436.166,"endTime":3437.5,"body":"your co-author could make."},{"startTime":3438.25,"endTime":3441.083,"body":"Say again, the money that your co-author"},{"startTime":3441.083,"endTime":3442.833,"body":"made or could make from this."},{"startTime":3443.166,"endTime":3446.208,"body":"She has a Nobel Prize now."},{"startTime":3450.125,"endTime":3451.458,"body":"And what's her name again?"},{"startTime":3451.791,"endTime":3452.416,"body":"Carol Greider."},{"startTime":3453.0,"endTime":3453.541,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"startTime":3453.541,"endTime":3453.875,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3454.833,"endTime":3455.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3455.25,"endTime":3456.916,"body":"And, you know, she got her Nobel Prize"},{"startTime":3456.916,"endTime":3461.166,"body":"for work that she and her advisor did."},{"startTime":3461.416,"endTime":3464.041,"body":"They discovered the enzyme telomerase"},{"startTime":3464.041,"endTime":3468.125,"body":"that allows cells to add extra repeats to"},{"startTime":3468.125,"endTime":3469.0,"body":"the end of a telomere."},{"startTime":3469.541,"endTime":3471.541,"body":"That work had nothing to do with me."},{"startTime":3471.541,"endTime":3473.166,"body":"It was long before she"},{"startTime":3473.166,"endTime":3474.0,"body":"and I knew each other."},{"startTime":3474.5,"endTime":3475.833,"body":"But during her Nobel lecture, she"},{"startTime":3475.833,"endTime":3478.75,"body":"presented the work that emerged from our"},{"startTime":3478.75,"endTime":3480.541,"body":"collaboration without mentioning me and"},{"startTime":3480.541,"endTime":3481.75,"body":"presented upside down."},{"startTime":3481.75,"endTime":3484.291,"body":"Interestingly, she presented as if the"},{"startTime":3484.291,"endTime":3486.625,"body":"ultra long telomeres that exist in"},{"startTime":3487.625,"endTime":3490.333,"body":"captive mice colonies are a useful"},{"startTime":3490.333,"endTime":3492.208,"body":"feature that allows us to discover all"},{"startTime":3492.208,"endTime":3493.833,"body":"kinds of wonderful things about mice"},{"startTime":3493.833,"endTime":3496.916,"body":"rather than an embarrassing product of"},{"startTime":3496.916,"endTime":3498.791,"body":"the captive breeding protocols, which"},{"startTime":3499.041,"endTime":3500.708,"body":"puts human life in jeopardy."},{"startTime":3501.083,"endTime":3502.041,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3502.041,"endTime":3502.583,"body":"I have an idea."},{"startTime":3502.875,"endTime":3503.208,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3503.583,"endTime":3504.708,"body":"Rogan should have her and"},{"startTime":3504.708,"endTime":3506.291,"body":"you on the show the same time."},{"startTime":3506.916,"endTime":3507.75,"body":"I would gladly go."},{"startTime":3508.916,"endTime":3509.125,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3509.5,"endTime":3510.416,"body":"Well, in other words, how"},{"startTime":3510.416,"endTime":3511.291,"body":"do we get to resolution?"},{"startTime":3511.583,"endTime":3511.833,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":3512.083,"endTime":3514.666,"body":"So by way of another example, so your"},{"startTime":3514.666,"endTime":3516.041,"body":"brother has gone on Rogan a bunch of"},{"startTime":3516.041,"endTime":3517.208,"body":"times talking about his"},{"startTime":3517.208,"endTime":3519.541,"body":"theory of geometric unity."},{"startTime":3519.916,"endTime":3520.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3520.833,"endTime":3522.375,"body":"And so, you know, again, what does Joe"},{"startTime":3522.375,"endTime":3523.25,"body":"know about these things?"},{"startTime":3523.25,"endTime":3525.541,"body":"And he's just a great conversationalist,"},{"startTime":3525.541,"endTime":3527.541,"body":"but, you know, how about a physicist that"},{"startTime":3527.541,"endTime":3529.541,"body":"does this, you know, that's in this area?"},{"startTime":3529.875,"endTime":3532.333,"body":"So I see that Piers Morgan"},{"startTime":3532.333,"endTime":3535.208,"body":"had on Eric with Sean Carroll."},{"startTime":3535.5,"endTime":3536.791,"body":"So I thought, Oh, okay, here we go."},{"startTime":3537.125,"endTime":3539.0,"body":"So I watched the whole thing and it got a"},{"startTime":3539.0,"endTime":3540.083,"body":"little testy for sure."},{"startTime":3540.75,"endTime":3542.125,"body":"But I thought Sean, you"},{"startTime":3542.125,"endTime":3543.625,"body":"know, made a good faith effort."},{"startTime":3543.625,"endTime":3546.333,"body":"Like I read the paper, here's what I have"},{"startTime":3546.333,"endTime":3547.458,"body":"some problems with it."},{"startTime":3547.458,"endTime":3549.291,"body":"And, you know, Eric wasn't particularly"},{"startTime":3549.291,"endTime":3550.291,"body":"vibe in that too much,"},{"startTime":3550.791,"endTime":3552.541,"body":"although he made some responses."},{"startTime":3552.833,"endTime":3554.916,"body":"But again, why is this happening on Piers"},{"startTime":3554.916,"endTime":3556.25,"body":"Morgan and Joe Rogan?"},{"startTime":3556.25,"endTime":3558.833,"body":"Hockum, why doesn't Eric publish his"},{"startTime":3558.833,"endTime":3560.125,"body":"theory in a journal?"},{"startTime":3560.125,"endTime":3561.666,"body":"And then there's a peer, you"},{"startTime":3561.666,"endTime":3562.833,"body":"know, open peer commentary."},{"startTime":3563.375,"endTime":3564.916,"body":"Here's our target article, Eric,"},{"startTime":3565.375,"endTime":3566.083,"body":"Weinstein's article."},{"startTime":3566.416,"endTime":3568.791,"body":"Here's like 10 different responses to it."},{"startTime":3569.0,"endTime":3570.333,"body":"I mean, that's how it normally works."},{"startTime":3571.083,"endTime":3573.375,"body":"And although, yes, there are all the"},{"startTime":3573.375,"endTime":3575.041,"body":"problems you identified are"},{"startTime":3575.041,"endTime":3577.25,"body":"true, but as opposed to what?"},{"startTime":3577.583,"endTime":3578.375,"body":"Well, hold on."},{"startTime":3578.916,"endTime":3579.208,"body":"Hold on."},{"startTime":3580.791,"endTime":3581.583,"body":"Let me ask you a question."},{"startTime":3584.083,"endTime":3585.375,"body":"Theoretical physics is"},{"startTime":3585.375,"endTime":3590.083,"body":"dominated today by string theorists."},{"startTime":3592.541,"endTime":3592.75,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3593.458,"endTime":3594.875,"body":"Yeah, but there's, you know, there was"},{"startTime":3594.875,"endTime":3597.75,"body":"that book like 10 years ago saying, not"},{"startTime":3597.75,"endTime":3599.708,"body":"even wrong about string theory, right?"},{"startTime":3599.958,"endTime":3600.791,"body":"By one of the major."},{"startTime":3601.041,"endTime":3603.25,"body":"Okay, so there are people in"},{"startTime":3603.25,"endTime":3603.916,"body":"the field that are skeptical."},{"startTime":3604.0,"endTime":3604.916,"body":"Here's my question."},{"startTime":3606.5,"endTime":3610.166,"body":"How is it possible for string theory to"},{"startTime":3610.166,"endTime":3613.125,"body":"dominate theoretical physics in light of"},{"startTime":3613.125,"endTime":3614.625,"body":"the fact that it does not make"},{"startTime":3614.625,"endTime":3617.75,"body":"predictions that render it testable?"},{"startTime":3618.458,"endTime":3618.791,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3619.041,"endTime":3621.166,"body":"Yeah, it seems to me it's way past its"},{"startTime":3621.166,"endTime":3623.0,"body":"sell by date, but so"},{"startTime":3623.0,"endTime":3624.333,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3624.875,"endTime":3625.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3625.041,"endTime":3629.541,"body":"I hear you struggling against a red pill"},{"startTime":3629.541,"endTime":3633.5,"body":"that I think you should take."},{"startTime":3634.666,"endTime":3637.916,"body":"The fact that you have, look, if we"},{"startTime":3638.166,"endTime":3639.958,"body":"policed our language correctly,"},{"startTime":3641.458,"endTime":3642.875,"body":"string theory isn't a theory."},{"startTime":3643.75,"endTime":3645.125,"body":"It's not even a hypothesis."},{"startTime":3646.166,"endTime":3648.166,"body":"It's a notion, right?"},{"startTime":3648.416,"endTime":3650.5,"body":"It becomes a hypothesis at the point that"},{"startTime":3650.5,"endTime":3651.291,"body":"it makes predictions."},{"startTime":3651.583,"endTime":3654.583,"body":"So it's been boosted two rungs"},{"startTime":3654.583,"endTime":3656.833,"body":"past where it actually lives."},{"startTime":3658.75,"endTime":3661.416,"body":"Not only has it been boosted two rungs to"},{"startTime":3661.416,"endTime":3662.458,"body":"the level of theory,"},{"startTime":3662.666,"endTime":3664.333,"body":"our highest category,"},{"startTime":3666.0,"endTime":3670.5,"body":"but that does not leave room for some"},{"startTime":3670.5,"endTime":3673.791,"body":"second school of thought to be ascending"},{"startTime":3673.791,"endTime":3675.5,"body":"inside of the academy."},{"startTime":3678.291,"endTime":3679.541,"body":"That's bizarre."},{"startTime":3680.125,"endTime":3680.583,"body":"Would you agree?"},{"startTime":3682.208,"endTime":3684.708,"body":"You mean in terms of why does the funding"},{"startTime":3684.708,"endTime":3686.958,"body":"keep pouring into string theory research,"},{"startTime":3686.958,"endTime":3688.916,"body":"even though everything what you just said"},{"startTime":3688.916,"endTime":3690.125,"body":"is true, don't they?"},{"startTime":3690.125,"endTime":3690.333,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3690.583,"endTime":3691.125,"body":"Yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":3691.125,"endTime":3692.208,"body":"Maybe there's a, you know, an"},{"startTime":3692.208,"endTime":3694.291,"body":"autocatalytic feedback system there where"},{"startTime":3694.291,"endTime":3696.666,"body":"they scratch each other's back and, you"},{"startTime":3696.666,"endTime":3697.333,"body":"know, I'll fund your"},{"startTime":3697.333,"endTime":3698.875,"body":"project if you fund my project."},{"startTime":3699.166,"endTime":3699.375,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":3700.291,"endTime":3703.458,"body":"Where in the scientific method or the description of how peer review is"},{"startTime":3703.458,"endTime":3708.791,"body":"supposed to maintain quality is that"},{"startTime":3708.791,"endTime":3710.083,"body":"reciprocity network"},{"startTime":3710.083,"endTime":3711.0,"body":"that you're describing?"},{"startTime":3711.75,"endTime":3712.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3712.291,"endTime":3713.5,"body":"Well, maybe we need some of those"},{"startTime":3713.5,"endTime":3715.166,"body":"graduate students who are reaching out to"},{"startTime":3715.166,"endTime":3716.5,"body":"to get in there and say, we're not going"},{"startTime":3716.5,"endTime":3717.5,"body":"to fund this anymore."},{"startTime":3717.5,"endTime":3717.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3717.75,"endTime":3718.666,"body":"But what happens?"},{"startTime":3718.666,"endTime":3719.291,"body":"What happens?"},{"startTime":3719.291,"endTime":3720.75,"body":"Oh, look, I've been, I've been the"},{"startTime":3720.75,"endTime":3721.75,"body":"graduate student who"},{"startTime":3721.75,"endTime":3723.208,"body":"didn't go along to get along."},{"startTime":3725.416,"endTime":3727.416,"body":"I almost didn't get my degree over it."},{"startTime":3727.833,"endTime":3730.708,"body":"It caused my department to polarize."},{"startTime":3730.708,"endTime":3732.916,"body":"I was very popular in one side of it and"},{"startTime":3732.916,"endTime":3734.458,"body":"very unpopular in the other."},{"startTime":3735.458,"endTime":3738.25,"body":"And believe me, there are stories like,"},{"startTime":3738.25,"endTime":3740.083,"body":"you know, at the point that I went to"},{"startTime":3740.083,"endTime":3742.791,"body":"file my dissertation and"},{"startTime":3742.791,"endTime":3744.541,"body":"defend it to get my degree,"},{"startTime":3745.958,"endTime":3748.875,"body":"I saw emails I wasn't supposed to, in"},{"startTime":3748.875,"endTime":3750.708,"body":"which the department is constructing"},{"startTime":3750.708,"endTime":3751.375,"body":"rules that didn't exist in order to make it impossible."},{"startTime":3752.166,"endTime":3757.083,"body":"So look,"},{"startTime":3758.75,"endTime":3760.25,"body":"I want to live in the world"},{"startTime":3760.25,"endTime":3762.458,"body":"that you think we live in."},{"startTime":3763.416,"endTime":3764.166,"body":"You know what I'm saying?"},{"startTime":3765.25,"endTime":3765.625,"body":"Let's see."},{"startTime":3765.625,"endTime":3766.75,"body":"Let me use another example."},{"startTime":3766.75,"endTime":3769.291,"body":"The replication crisis, which began in"},{"startTime":3769.291,"endTime":3772.125,"body":"2010, roughly with the publication of"},{"startTime":3772.125,"endTime":3774.041,"body":"Daryl Bem's experiment on"},{"startTime":3774.041,"endTime":3775.75,"body":"backward causality on ESP."},{"startTime":3776.125,"endTime":3776.333,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3776.791,"endTime":3778.5,"body":"So this was of obvious"},{"startTime":3778.5,"endTime":3779.375,"body":"interest to skeptics."},{"startTime":3779.375,"endTime":3784.708,"body":"And so we followed that. And we were able to find out that, you"},{"startTime":3784.708,"endTime":3786.375,"body":"know, these methodological flaws, how did"},{"startTime":3786.375,"endTime":3787.958,"body":"all of this get past the"},{"startTime":3787.958,"endTime":3789.75,"body":"peer reviews, peer reviewers?"},{"startTime":3790.083,"endTime":3791.625,"body":"And then it was like, Oh, well, what"},{"startTime":3791.625,"endTime":3793.166,"body":"about this study here?"},{"startTime":3793.166,"endTime":3794.416,"body":"Like if you stand at the top of the"},{"startTime":3794.416,"endTime":3796.666,"body":"escalator, you're more likely to give a"},{"startTime":3796.666,"endTime":3797.666,"body":"bigger donation at the"},{"startTime":3797.666,"endTime":3798.666,"body":"bottom of the escalator."},{"startTime":3798.958,"endTime":3800.458,"body":"Or if you put a pin in your mouth this"},{"startTime":3800.458,"endTime":3804.0,"body":"way versus this way, you'll find that"},{"startTime":3804.0,"endTime":3805.333,"body":"joke funnier or not funny."},{"startTime":3805.583,"endTime":3806.875,"body":"Or if you hold a cup of warm coffee and"},{"startTime":3806.875,"endTime":3810.791,"body":"you meet somebody else, you'll interpret"},{"startTime":3810.791,"endTime":3813.458,"body":"them as being warm versus a cold cup."},{"startTime":3813.916,"endTime":3814.791,"body":"None of these replicated."},{"startTime":3815.0,"endTime":3815.333,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3815.333,"endTime":3816.333,"body":"This is all bullshit."},{"startTime":3817.0,"endTime":3819.0,"body":"And so it turns out something like 50,"},{"startTime":3819.0,"endTime":3822.291,"body":"60% of all psychology, peer reviewed"},{"startTime":3822.291,"endTime":3823.083,"body":"papers should have"},{"startTime":3823.083,"endTime":3824.541,"body":"probably never been published."},{"startTime":3824.833,"endTime":3826.458,"body":"And then that got spilled over into some"},{"startTime":3826.458,"endTime":3827.916,"body":"of the medical research, which is way"},{"startTime":3827.916,"endTime":3829.625,"body":"more complicated than the psych"},{"startTime":3829.625,"endTime":3832.708,"body":"experiments and open to corruption and"},{"startTime":3832.708,"endTime":3834.125,"body":"mistakes and errors and so on."},{"startTime":3834.375,"endTime":3834.708,"body":"But the response over the last 15 years"},{"startTime":3835.125,"endTime":3838.458,"body":"has been to clean it up."},{"startTime":3839.333,"endTime":3839.541,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3839.666,"endTime":3843.208,"body":"So, and, you know, no more data snooping,"},{"startTime":3843.583,"endTime":3845.5,"body":"you know, no more file drawer problems."},{"startTime":3845.5,"endTime":3847.916,"body":"You know, you, you tell us before you run"},{"startTime":3847.916,"endTime":3849.291,"body":"the experiments, everything you're going"},{"startTime":3849.291,"endTime":3850.458,"body":"to do, and then you publish"},{"startTime":3850.458,"endTime":3852.208,"body":"every single thing you found."},{"startTime":3853.0,"endTime":3854.75,"body":"And so there's no, none of this, you're"},{"startTime":3854.75,"endTime":3856.5,"body":"only reporting the one experiment of the"},{"startTime":3856.5,"endTime":3858.375,"body":"nine that was significant and so on."},{"startTime":3858.583,"endTime":3861.208,"body":"That supposedly, I'm being, I'm told by"},{"startTime":3861.208,"endTime":3861.583,"body":"people that follow this, is that, you know, that that's been a big improvement"},{"startTime":3861.708,"endTime":3865.833,"body":"over what it was before"},{"startTime":3865.833,"endTime":3867.0,"body":"the replication crisis."},{"startTime":3868.083,"endTime":3868.333,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3868.333,"endTime":3869.625,"body":"But how could the replication crisis"},{"startTime":3869.625,"endTime":3871.208,"body":"look, first of all, I should just tell"},{"startTime":3871.208,"endTime":3874.083,"body":"you, uh, as a matter of in"},{"startTime":3874.083,"endTime":3875.291,"body":"the interest of full disclosure,"},{"startTime":3876.916,"endTime":3880.083,"body":"I was ranting about the problem and game"},{"startTime":3880.083,"endTime":3883.5,"body":"ability of P values long before the term"},{"startTime":3883.5,"endTime":3885.416,"body":"replication crisis existed."},{"startTime":3885.791,"endTime":3886.083,"body":"P hacking."},{"startTime":3886.5,"endTime":3886.708,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3886.916,"endTime":3887.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3887.291,"endTime":3892.875,"body":"It's obvious if you have been through"},{"startTime":3892.875,"endTime":3895.583,"body":"statistics and you've looked at the way"},{"startTime":3895.583,"endTime":3898.75,"body":"the academy functions on the inside, that"},{"startTime":3898.75,"endTime":3901.708,"body":"people who take liberties, I mean, the"},{"startTime":3901.708,"endTime":3902.333,"body":"whole system"},{"startTime":3902.333,"endTime":3903.875,"body":"functions on the honor system"},{"startTime":3904.958,"endTime":3906.75,"body":"and people who take liberties"},{"startTime":3906.75,"endTime":3910.125,"body":"and it's not just P hacking."},{"startTime":3910.125,"endTime":3913.125,"body":"P hacking is one thing you can do to make"},{"startTime":3913.125,"endTime":3914.958,"body":"your results look important."},{"startTime":3914.958,"endTime":3915.5,"body":"That will result in things that aren't"},{"startTime":3915.5,"endTime":3918.333,"body":"even true being regarded as facts."},{"startTime":3920.583,"endTime":3923.083,"body":"But another thing you can do is you can"},{"startTime":3923.083,"endTime":3928.416,"body":"collect data that you"},{"startTime":3928.416,"endTime":3931.708,"body":"don't have a hypothesis about."},{"startTime":3932.083,"endTime":3933.583,"body":"That's nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":3933.916,"endTime":3935.125,"body":"It's observational data."},{"startTime":3935.791,"endTime":3939.0,"body":"But if you see a pattern in that data and"},{"startTime":3939.0,"endTime":3942.166,"body":"then you report the pattern that you saw as a hypothesis and then collect data,"},{"startTime":3942.208,"endTime":3950.0,"body":"looking to see if the hypothesis was true"},{"startTime":3950.0,"endTime":3951.958,"body":"and Eureka, it is, the prediction is"},{"startTime":3951.958,"endTime":3953.333,"body":"visible in the data."},{"startTime":3953.333,"endTime":3957.458,"body":"There's no way for outsiders to know that"},{"startTime":3957.458,"endTime":3958.666,"body":"you just committed fraud."},{"startTime":3960.458,"endTime":3962.916,"body":"So anyway, the basic point is if you"},{"startTime":3962.916,"endTime":3964.708,"body":"don't punish people who are engaged in these every day run of the mill frauds,"},{"startTime":3965.125,"endTime":3968.791,"body":"people who are engaged in these every day"},{"startTime":3968.791,"endTime":3971.916,"body":"run of the mill frauds, they will out"},{"startTime":3971.916,"endTime":3973.041,"body":"compete everyone else"},{"startTime":3973.041,"endTime":3975.833,"body":"because they will publish more."},{"startTime":3976.333,"endTime":3977.875,"body":"They will publish things that seem"},{"startTime":3977.875,"endTime":3980.458,"body":"significant in ways"},{"startTime":3980.458,"endTime":3982.333,"body":"that they really aren't."},{"startTime":3982.958,"endTime":3987.041,"body":"So I think what I would say is the"},{"startTime":3987.041,"endTime":3988.958,"body":"enforcement mechanism doesn't exist."},{"startTime":3989.75,"endTime":3991.916,"body":"The prosecutions of"},{"startTime":3991.916,"endTime":3993.916,"body":"scientific fraud are rare."},{"startTime":3996.208,"endTime":3999.458,"body":"That predicts the system will be overrun"},{"startTime":3999.458,"endTime":4001.791,"body":"by competitors who avail"},{"startTime":4001.791,"endTime":4003.291,"body":"themselves of this tool."},{"startTime":4004.0,"endTime":4005.833,"body":"If you want to understand why people like"},{"startTime":4005.833,"endTime":4009.5,"body":"me are skeptical of the entire academy,"},{"startTime":4009.791,"endTime":4011.75,"body":"it comes down to things like this."},{"startTime":4011.75,"endTime":4013.958,"body":"The academy is structured in such a way"},{"startTime":4014.458,"endTime":4015.375,"body":"such that unscrupulous"},{"startTime":4015.375,"endTime":4018.333,"body":"people will rise to the top of it."},{"startTime":4018.875,"endTime":4021.75,"body":"And what do unscrupulous people do when"},{"startTime":4021.75,"endTime":4023.916,"body":"an honorable person shows up?"},{"startTime":4024.75,"endTime":4025.333,"body":"Well, they either"},{"startTime":4025.333,"endTime":4026.5,"body":"corrupt them or kick them out."},{"startTime":4027.125,"endTime":4027.333,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":4029.208,"endTime":4031.041,"body":"I'm not describing a conspiracy."},{"startTime":4031.583,"endTime":4033.708,"body":"I'm describing a selective regime that"},{"startTime":4033.708,"endTime":4037.458,"body":"causes the academy to be feeble,"},{"startTime":4038.166,"endTime":4040.041,"body":"clannish, unreliable,"},{"startTime":4041.208,"endTime":4042.375,"body":"and full of cowards."},{"startTime":4042.875,"endTime":4044.166,"body":"Okay, another alternative idea."},{"startTime":4044.5,"endTime":4047.291,"body":"You have a mainstream New York publishing"},{"startTime":4047.291,"endTime":4049.125,"body":"house that published your"},{"startTime":4049.125,"endTime":4050.5,"body":"previous book 21st Century."},{"startTime":4051.541,"endTime":4053.958,"body":"I forget who your publisher was, but it"},{"startTime":4053.958,"endTime":4055.458,"body":"was one of the big ones, right?"},{"startTime":4056.5,"endTime":4056.666,"body":"Penguin."},{"startTime":4057.208,"endTime":4057.958,"body":"Yeah, penguin."},{"startTime":4057.958,"endTime":4058.166,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4058.25,"endTime":4058.458,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4058.5,"endTime":4058.833,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":4059.166,"endTime":4059.375,"body":"Penguin."},{"startTime":4059.375,"endTime":4060.458,"body":"It doesn't get any bigger than that."},{"startTime":4060.75,"endTime":4060.958,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4061.541,"endTime":4062.375,"body":"And you have a platform."},{"startTime":4062.708,"endTime":4064.0,"body":"I mean, you have millions of followers"},{"startTime":4064.0,"endTime":4065.958,"body":"and you're a famous guy."},{"startTime":4066.625,"endTime":4069.5,"body":"Why not publish a book about, I don't"},{"startTime":4069.5,"endTime":4071.916,"body":"know, scientific fraud or the whole issue"},{"startTime":4071.916,"endTime":4072.916,"body":"and have a chapter on"},{"startTime":4072.916,"endTime":4074.125,"body":"your particular one?"},{"startTime":4074.416,"endTime":4075.5,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":4075.916,"endTime":4077.916,"body":"Surely they would be interested in that."},{"startTime":4077.916,"endTime":4080.375,"body":"The real answer to that question is,"},{"startTime":4080.875,"endTime":4086.291,"body":"where does outing scientific fraud fall"},{"startTime":4086.291,"endTime":4089.333,"body":"in the spectrum of things I should be"},{"startTime":4089.333,"endTime":4090.416,"body":"spending my time on?"},{"startTime":4090.583,"endTime":4092.916,"body":"And I'm not arguing that it would not be"},{"startTime":4092.916,"endTime":4095.125,"body":"a good investment of"},{"startTime":4095.125,"endTime":4096.458,"body":"time if time were unlimited."},{"startTime":4097.416,"endTime":4098.5,"body":"The question is how"},{"startTime":4098.5,"endTime":4101.0,"body":"many things fall above it?"},{"startTime":4102.458,"endTime":4103.625,"body":"And it's quite a number."},{"startTime":4104.125,"endTime":4106.958,"body":"So, but it's important to you first."},{"startTime":4107.291,"endTime":4110.208,"body":"And also your core message here is that"},{"startTime":4110.208,"endTime":4112.416,"body":"there's a massive problem with all of"},{"startTime":4112.416,"endTime":4113.916,"body":"science, particularly as"},{"startTime":4113.916,"endTime":4115.5,"body":"it influences public policy."},{"startTime":4116.0,"endTime":4116.708,"body":"That's huge."},{"startTime":4116.708,"endTime":4120.166,"body":"I mean, yes, but, but what's more"},{"startTime":4120.166,"endTime":4120.875,"body":"important than that?"},{"startTime":4121.125,"endTime":4122.583,"body":"Well, no, that's not, I mean, the"},{"startTime":4122.583,"endTime":4124.541,"body":"calculation is a little more complex than"},{"startTime":4124.541,"endTime":4128.25,"body":"that because the question is, as I've"},{"startTime":4128.25,"endTime":4130.458,"body":"stated publicly many times, I don't"},{"startTime":4130.458,"endTime":4134.791,"body":"believe that you can reform the academy"},{"startTime":4134.791,"endTime":4136.5,"body":"to the point of functionality."},{"startTime":4137.458,"endTime":4139.208,"body":"I would call the problems with the"},{"startTime":4139.208,"endTime":4141.75,"body":"academy three generation problems."},{"startTime":4142.75,"endTime":4145.5,"body":"Those are problems that if you started"},{"startTime":4145.5,"endTime":4147.75,"body":"fixing it today, it would be three"},{"startTime":4147.75,"endTime":4149.0,"body":"generations before you"},{"startTime":4149.0,"endTime":4150.666,"body":"had a functional academy."},{"startTime":4151.416,"endTime":4153.5,"body":"It would get better almost immediately,"},{"startTime":4154.0,"endTime":4156.833,"body":"but it wouldn't be the thing that I think"},{"startTime":4156.833,"endTime":4159.333,"body":"you imagine it is for three generations."},{"startTime":4160.041,"endTime":4161.791,"body":"And that's because the number of people"},{"startTime":4161.791,"endTime":4166.833,"body":"who know how to do the job correctly and"},{"startTime":4166.833,"endTime":4169.375,"body":"are just simply not doing it because the"},{"startTime":4169.375,"endTime":4171.666,"body":"incentives don't support it is small."},{"startTime":4172.5,"endTime":4175.208,"body":"It's actually a training ground for a"},{"startTime":4175.208,"endTime":4177.166,"body":"kind of corrupted thinking."},{"startTime":4178.458,"endTime":4181.875,"body":"And, you know, I don't, no"},{"startTime":4181.875,"endTime":4183.875,"body":"part of me is happy saying that."},{"startTime":4183.875,"endTime":4184.083,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":4184.916,"endTime":4185.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4185.375,"endTime":4185.875,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4185.875,"endTime":4186.75,"body":"But here's what I'm after."},{"startTime":4186.958,"endTime":4190.125,"body":"What, how can we resolve this and, and"},{"startTime":4190.125,"endTime":4191.875,"body":"kind of put it out there to see if what"},{"startTime":4191.875,"endTime":4192.666,"body":"you're saying is true."},{"startTime":4193.333,"endTime":4193.916,"body":"Well, the only way to"},{"startTime":4193.916,"endTime":4195.125,"body":"do it is to publish it."},{"startTime":4195.375,"endTime":4196.416,"body":"I mean, you can't,"},{"startTime":4196.416,"endTime":4198.0,"body":"podcasts are not the same."},{"startTime":4198.125,"endTime":4198.666,"body":"They're great."},{"startTime":4198.666,"endTime":4200.458,"body":"I love podcasts, but you"},{"startTime":4200.458,"endTime":4202.125,"body":"know, put it in print, you know?"},{"startTime":4202.291,"endTime":4204.583,"body":"So again, penguin, surely your agent"},{"startTime":4204.583,"endTime":4205.666,"body":"would shop that around"},{"startTime":4205.666,"endTime":4206.75,"body":"if they didn't want it."},{"startTime":4206.75,"endTime":4207.291,"body":"One of the other big"},{"startTime":4207.291,"endTime":4208.25,"body":"houses would want it."},{"startTime":4208.541,"endTime":4210.833,"body":"The famous Bret Weinstein has this idea"},{"startTime":4210.833,"endTime":4213.166,"body":"and look what happened to him and so on."},{"startTime":4213.166,"endTime":4214.75,"body":"And and there's all these other areas of"},{"startTime":4214.75,"endTime":4217.708,"body":"fraud and corruption, the CDC, the"},{"startTime":4217.708,"endTime":4220.0,"body":"tobacco, the food companies that would"},{"startTime":4220.0,"endTime":4221.416,"body":"make a spectacular book."},{"startTime":4221.958,"endTime":4223.0,"body":"So do it."},{"startTime":4223.291,"endTime":4224.791,"body":"Well, I mean, you're, why not?"},{"startTime":4225.041,"endTime":4226.375,"body":"You're imagining that I'm not writing"},{"startTime":4226.375,"endTime":4228.25,"body":"other books that are of higher priority."},{"startTime":4229.0,"endTime":4229.208,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4229.208,"endTime":4229.583,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4229.583,"endTime":4230.416,"body":"Well, then tell me"},{"startTime":4230.416,"endTime":4233.041,"body":"that tell you that I am."},{"startTime":4233.333,"endTime":4234.708,"body":"Yeah, I am."},{"startTime":4235.0,"endTime":4238.583,"body":"And unfortunately, my, my time is divided"},{"startTime":4238.583,"endTime":4240.416,"body":"between projects that I think are"},{"startTime":4240.416,"endTime":4242.958,"body":"blinking red light projects."},{"startTime":4245.041,"endTime":4245.583,"body":"So anyway,"},{"startTime":4246.083,"endTime":4247.791,"body":"to some people, Bret, it feels like"},{"startTime":4247.791,"endTime":4248.666,"body":"you're doing an end"},{"startTime":4248.666,"endTime":4249.916,"body":"run around the system."},{"startTime":4249.916,"endTime":4250.5,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4250.75,"endTime":4252.208,"body":"That you don't want to play in it."},{"startTime":4252.208,"endTime":4253.75,"body":"And all the other, I mean, how many"},{"startTime":4253.75,"endTime":4255.291,"body":"evolutionary biologists are there?"},{"startTime":4255.291,"endTime":4256.583,"body":"Thousands, you know, they all have to"},{"startTime":4256.583,"endTime":4259.0,"body":"publish in journals to get tenure."},{"startTime":4259.0,"endTime":4260.375,"body":"They have their jobs and so on."},{"startTime":4260.708,"endTime":4261.833,"body":"They look at you and they"},{"startTime":4261.833,"endTime":4263.75,"body":"go, how come I'm not on Rogan?"},{"startTime":4263.75,"endTime":4265.083,"body":"I do all this work."},{"startTime":4265.083,"endTime":4267.375,"body":"And it seems like this guy is just trying"},{"startTime":4267.375,"endTime":4268.375,"body":"to cut to the front of the"},{"startTime":4268.375,"endTime":4269.625,"body":"line and that doesn't feel right."},{"startTime":4269.958,"endTime":4271.083,"body":"Oh, look, I don't"},{"startTime":4271.083,"endTime":4272.25,"body":"even take them seriously."},{"startTime":4272.458,"endTime":4276.541,"body":"Again, where were they when medical"},{"startTime":4276.541,"endTime":4280.416,"body":"science was surgically destroying the"},{"startTime":4280.416,"endTime":4285.0,"body":"reproductive capacity of innocent young"},{"startTime":4285.0,"endTime":4288.0,"body":"people on the basis that they were born"},{"startTime":4288.0,"endTime":4290.208,"body":"in a body of the wrong sex?"},{"startTime":4290.666,"endTime":4291.291,"body":"Where were they?"},{"startTime":4293.0,"endTime":4294.833,"body":"Yeah, I'm right there with you."},{"startTime":4295.166,"endTime":4295.333,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":4295.333,"endTime":4297.875,"body":"So, so my point is any evolutionary"},{"startTime":4297.875,"endTime":4300.5,"body":"biologist who wonders why I'm on Rogan,"},{"startTime":4300.5,"endTime":4302.333,"body":"but didn't stand up to the"},{"startTime":4302.333,"endTime":4303.75,"body":"mutilation of healthy children."},{"startTime":4303.75,"endTime":4304.041,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4304.041,"endTime":4304.416,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4304.416,"endTime":4304.75,"body":"Fair enough."},{"startTime":4305.0,"endTime":4306.0,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4306.0,"endTime":4306.583,"body":"Fair enough."},{"startTime":4306.916,"endTime":4307.333,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4307.333,"endTime":4308.458,"body":"Can I ask you about another Rogan"},{"startTime":4308.458,"endTime":4311.166,"body":"statement you made in your recent episode"},{"startTime":4311.166,"endTime":4312.583,"body":"again, back to, so"},{"startTime":4312.583,"endTime":4314.0,"body":"here's the general issue."},{"startTime":4315.166,"endTime":4316.75,"body":"None of us know much about anything."},{"startTime":4317.041,"endTime":4318.416,"body":"So we have to rely on"},{"startTime":4318.416,"endTime":4319.458,"body":"authorities and so on."},{"startTime":4319.458,"endTime":4319.75,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4319.75,"endTime":4322.916,"body":"So vaccines and COVID-19,"},{"startTime":4322.916,"endTime":4324.833,"body":"this is not my area, right?"},{"startTime":4324.833,"endTime":4327.041,"body":"So you've told Rogan that 17 million"},{"startTime":4327.041,"endTime":4330.0,"body":"people died because of the mRNA vaccines."},{"startTime":4330.0,"endTime":4330.458,"body":"No, I didn't."},{"startTime":4331.625,"endTime":4332.375,"body":"You did it?"},{"startTime":4332.375,"endTime":4332.583,"body":"No."},{"startTime":4333.0,"endTime":4333.541,"body":"What did you say?"},{"startTime":4334.0,"endTime":4334.875,"body":"I said I had an"},{"startTime":4334.875,"endTime":4336.75,"body":"incredible estimate of 17 million."},{"startTime":4336.833,"endTime":4337.958,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4337.958,"endTime":4339.166,"body":"Anyway, so I just put it in."},{"startTime":4339.166,"endTime":4339.75,"body":"No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":4339.75,"endTime":4340.75,"body":"You don't get to do that."},{"startTime":4341.083,"endTime":4344.5,"body":"What I said was careful and true."},{"startTime":4345.125,"endTime":4346.375,"body":"I've seen a credible estimate."},{"startTime":4346.75,"endTime":4348.958,"body":"I'm not saying one way or the other as to"},{"startTime":4348.958,"endTime":4350.958,"body":"whether or not that estimate is high or"},{"startTime":4350.958,"endTime":4353.041,"body":"low or what will happen to it over time,"},{"startTime":4353.291,"endTime":4355.75,"body":"but the difference between portraying me"},{"startTime":4355.75,"endTime":4358.666,"body":"as having said 17 million people died as"},{"startTime":4358.666,"endTime":4361.041,"body":"if that was some fact that I knew rather"},{"startTime":4361.041,"endTime":4365.25,"body":"than I saw Denny Rancourt's paper in"},{"startTime":4365.25,"endTime":4367.5,"body":"which he estimated the excess mortality"},{"startTime":4367.708,"endTime":4368.833,"body":"at the moment that the"},{"startTime":4368.833,"endTime":4370.791,"body":"vaccine campaign showed up."},{"startTime":4370.791,"endTime":4372.375,"body":"I'm pointing to work,"},{"startTime":4372.625,"endTime":4375.5,"body":"published work that says exactly this."},{"startTime":4375.5,"endTime":4377.5,"body":"I didn't misrepresent anything."},{"startTime":4377.958,"endTime":4378.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4378.208,"endTime":4378.541,"body":"Okay, good."},{"startTime":4378.541,"endTime":4380.958,"body":"Here's, so I just typed into super grok."},{"startTime":4380.958,"endTime":4383.0,"body":"Did 17 million people die because of"},{"startTime":4383.0,"endTime":4384.791,"body":"COVID-19 mRNA vaccines?"},{"startTime":4385.25,"endTime":4387.416,"body":"Super Grok's response is no."},{"startTime":4387.708,"endTime":4389.416,"body":"There's no credible evidence that 17"},{"startTime":4389.416,"endTime":4391.291,"body":"million people die because of COVID-19"},{"startTime":4391.291,"endTime":4394.041,"body":"mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer and Moderna."},{"startTime":4394.416,"endTime":4396.333,"body":"This claim is false and originates from a"},{"startTime":4396.333,"endTime":4398.625,"body":"flawed non-peer reviewed analysis that"},{"startTime":4398.625,"endTime":4401.416,"body":"misrepresented excess mortality data by"},{"startTime":4401.416,"endTime":4403.5,"body":"attributing it to vaccines while ignoring"},{"startTime":4403.5,"endTime":4406.5,"body":"surges in COVID-19 infections and deaths."},{"startTime":4406.708,"endTime":4409.25,"body":"The 17 million figure stems from a 2023"},{"startTime":4409.25,"endTime":4412.125,"body":"report by Denny Rancourt and colleagues"},{"startTime":4412.125,"endTime":4415.125,"body":"which analyzed all-cause mortality in 17"},{"startTime":4415.125,"endTime":4417.083,"body":"southern hemisphere countries and"},{"startTime":4417.083,"endTime":4418.5,"body":"extrapolated a vaccine"},{"startTime":4418.5,"endTime":4420.5,"body":"fatality rate globally."},{"startTime":4421.333,"endTime":4423.291,"body":"Fact checks from sources like AFP,"},{"startTime":4423.708,"endTime":4425.666,"body":"Reuters, factcheck.org, and Science"},{"startTime":4425.666,"endTime":4427.958,"body":"Feedback have debunked it, noting that"},{"startTime":4427.958,"endTime":4430.583,"body":"excess death spikes aligned with COVID-19"},{"startTime":4430.583,"endTime":4433.25,"body":"waves, for example, amacron, not"},{"startTime":4433.25,"endTime":4435.625,"body":"vaccination rollouts, and that the"},{"startTime":4435.625,"endTime":4437.458,"body":"analysis failed to account for"},{"startTime":4437.458,"endTime":4439.791,"body":"confounding factors like infection rates."},{"startTime":4440.541,"endTime":4442.416,"body":"Large-scale studies through 2025"},{"startTime":4442.416,"endTime":4444.958,"body":"consistently show no increased long-term"},{"startTime":4444.958,"endTime":4447.666,"body":"all-cause mortality from mRNA vaccines"},{"startTime":4447.666,"endTime":4449.916,"body":"and often lower mortality"},{"startTime":4449.916,"endTime":4451.833,"body":"among vaccinated people."},{"startTime":4451.833,"endTime":4452.375,"body":"And then it has a"},{"startTime":4452.375,"endTime":4454.083,"body":"bunch of sources and so on."},{"startTime":4454.083,"endTime":4456.0,"body":"All right, so yeah."},{"startTime":4456.375,"endTime":4458.125,"body":"Do you know how an LLM works?"},{"startTime":4459.208,"endTime":4460.708,"body":"Yeah, it scrapes all the sources."},{"startTime":4460.75,"endTime":4462.375,"body":"It has a whole pile of sources there."},{"startTime":4462.541,"endTime":4463.875,"body":"Yeah, it has a whole pile of sources."},{"startTime":4464.083,"endTime":4465.5,"body":"And so to the extent that corruption"},{"startTime":4465.5,"endTime":4467.875,"body":"results in those sources being biased in"},{"startTime":4467.875,"endTime":4470.583,"body":"a direction, it regurgitates it."},{"startTime":4470.583,"endTime":4472.0,"body":"And now you're regurgitating it."},{"startTime":4472.333,"endTime":4474.166,"body":"Yes, well, but what are my alternatives?"},{"startTime":4474.916,"endTime":4476.125,"body":"Well, you could think for yourself."},{"startTime":4476.791,"endTime":4478.458,"body":"Well, I know, but this is not my area."},{"startTime":4478.791,"endTime":4480.583,"body":"Oh, no, no, don't do that."},{"startTime":4480.583,"endTime":4481.208,"body":"That's a mistake."},{"startTime":4481.5,"endTime":4482.5,"body":"Let me ask you a question."},{"startTime":4482.708,"endTime":4484.333,"body":"Are you still getting COVID boosters?"},{"startTime":4485.041,"endTime":4485.25,"body":"No."},{"startTime":4485.666,"endTime":4486.0,"body":"You're not?"},{"startTime":4486.625,"endTime":4487.625,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":4488.708,"endTime":4491.583,"body":"Well, I've already had COVID a couple of"},{"startTime":4491.583,"endTime":4493.125,"body":"times, so I have natural immunity."},{"startTime":4493.541,"endTime":4494.916,"body":"Oh, so you believe in natural immunity?"},{"startTime":4495.583,"endTime":4496.708,"body":"Well, after the initial vaccine."},{"startTime":4496.708,"endTime":4497.25,"body":"You don't know what the entire public"},{"startTime":4497.25,"endTime":4499.708,"body":"health apparatus assured us that natural"},{"startTime":4499.708,"endTime":4501.916,"body":"immunity was not good enough and that you"},{"startTime":4501.916,"endTime":4502.875,"body":"still got a benefit"},{"startTime":4502.875,"endTime":4503.458,"body":"from the next few years."},{"startTime":4503.458,"endTime":4504.125,"body":"Oh, they got it wrong."},{"startTime":4504.583,"endTime":4506.166,"body":"Look, Bret, they got many things wrong."},{"startTime":4506.166,"endTime":4507.583,"body":"Do you remember that moment in time?"},{"startTime":4507.625,"endTime":4508.041,"body":"I do."},{"startTime":4508.333,"endTime":4508.791,"body":"I do."},{"startTime":4508.791,"endTime":4509.333,"body":"Do you remember people"},{"startTime":4509.333,"endTime":4511.166,"body":"like me shouting about this?"},{"startTime":4511.166,"endTime":4512.0,"body":"Yes, I do."},{"startTime":4512.0,"endTime":4512.166,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4512.708,"endTime":4515.875,"body":"So now we find out from Paul Offit that"},{"startTime":4515.875,"endTime":4518.083,"body":"all of the major players gathered"},{"startTime":4518.083,"endTime":4520.291,"body":"together and privately understood the"},{"startTime":4520.291,"endTime":4521.75,"body":"very same thing that they were"},{"startTime":4521.75,"endTime":4523.083,"body":"gaslighting us over."},{"startTime":4523.541,"endTime":4525.416,"body":"They understood that natural immunity was"},{"startTime":4525.416,"endTime":4526.666,"body":"the best immunity that you were going to"},{"startTime":4526.666,"endTime":4527.916,"body":"come by and that a vaccine"},{"startTime":4527.916,"endTime":4529.333,"body":"wasn't going to augment it."},{"startTime":4529.333,"endTime":4530.875,"body":"And they decided to keep that to"},{"startTime":4530.875,"endTime":4533.083,"body":"themselves in spite of the fact that"},{"startTime":4533.083,"endTime":4535.666,"body":"these vaccines are built on a novel"},{"startTime":4535.666,"endTime":4537.0,"body":"technology they didn't"},{"startTime":4537.0,"endTime":4538.75,"body":"know the hazards of at best."},{"startTime":4539.5,"endTime":4542.708,"body":"So how is it that these people can"},{"startTime":4542.708,"endTime":4546.0,"body":"privately meet and decide there's a whole"},{"startTime":4546.0,"endTime":4549.833,"body":"swath, millions of people, hundreds of"},{"startTime":4549.833,"endTime":4551.5,"body":"millions of people who'd already had"},{"startTime":4551.5,"endTime":4553.75,"body":"COVID who didn't need to take any risk"},{"startTime":4553.75,"endTime":4555.5,"body":"whatsoever from a novel vaccine?"},{"startTime":4555.875,"endTime":4557.5,"body":"How is it that they get to privately"},{"startTime":4557.5,"endTime":4558.833,"body":"decide to keep that"},{"startTime":4558.833,"endTime":4560.0,"body":"information to themselves?"},{"startTime":4560.041,"endTime":4561.666,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4562.166,"endTime":4565.041,"body":"And why, given that they did that, given"},{"startTime":4565.041,"endTime":4567.375,"body":"that you remember the moment in history"},{"startTime":4567.375,"endTime":4570.208,"body":"at which they were not only were they"},{"startTime":4570.208,"endTime":4572.583,"body":"disagreeing with us, which was a lie,"},{"startTime":4572.958,"endTime":4574.5,"body":"they were gaslighting us."},{"startTime":4574.708,"endTime":4576.958,"body":"They were telling people like you that"},{"startTime":4576.958,"endTime":4578.875,"body":"people like me were crazy."},{"startTime":4579.333,"endTime":4582.333,"body":"Well, I don't understand how you don't"},{"startTime":4582.333,"endTime":4584.0,"body":"learn that lesson or maybe you did."},{"startTime":4584.0,"endTime":4585.583,"body":"And that's why you're not getting any"},{"startTime":4585.583,"endTime":4586.5,"body":"more COVID boosters."},{"startTime":4587.041,"endTime":4589.083,"body":"No, I just think again, it's more of a"},{"startTime":4589.083,"endTime":4591.5,"body":"changing information landscape."},{"startTime":4591.875,"endTime":4593.625,"body":"We think this is what, you know, we think"},{"startTime":4593.625,"endTime":4595.833,"body":"mass work, mass don't work."},{"startTime":4595.833,"endTime":4597.291,"body":"Yeah, we should have mass six feet"},{"startTime":4597.291,"endTime":4598.75,"body":"distancing, close the"},{"startTime":4598.75,"endTime":4599.583,"body":"schools, open the schools."},{"startTime":4599.583,"endTime":4600.541,"body":"Why do you think the"},{"startTime":4600.541,"endTime":4601.916,"body":"information landscape changed?"},{"startTime":4603.291,"endTime":4604.083,"body":"Well, because the"},{"startTime":4604.083,"endTime":4606.875,"body":"information was low to begin with."},{"startTime":4606.875,"endTime":4608.166,"body":"And then we got more information."},{"startTime":4608.166,"endTime":4608.625,"body":"No, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":4608.625,"endTime":4610.708,"body":"I'm less conspiratorial that Paul Offit"},{"startTime":4610.708,"endTime":4611.708,"body":"and his buddies all met."},{"startTime":4612.291,"endTime":4613.875,"body":"They said, according to Paul Offit,"},{"startTime":4615.041,"endTime":4617.0,"body":"I don't remember him saying that."},{"startTime":4617.333,"endTime":4619.0,"body":"You talked about it twice on video."},{"startTime":4619.0,"endTime":4621.5,"body":"He's described the meeting where he and"},{"startTime":4621.5,"endTime":4624.083,"body":"Fauci and Collins and Walensky got"},{"startTime":4624.083,"endTime":4626.541,"body":"together and they talked about the fact"},{"startTime":4626.541,"endTime":4628.708,"body":"that natural immunity was superior and"},{"startTime":4628.708,"endTime":4630.375,"body":"they decided not to tell the public."},{"startTime":4630.666,"endTime":4631.916,"body":"That's from Paul Offit."},{"startTime":4631.916,"endTime":4632.666,"body":"You can go look at the video."},{"startTime":4632.666,"endTime":4635.0,"body":"You gotta remember that, but they're"},{"startTime":4635.0,"endTime":4636.125,"body":"going to lie to the public."},{"startTime":4636.708,"endTime":4638.583,"body":"I can't believe Paul Offit would say,"},{"startTime":4639.041,"endTime":4639.833,"body":"yeah, we agreed we"},{"startTime":4639.833,"endTime":4640.916,"body":"would lie to the public."},{"startTime":4640.916,"endTime":4642.375,"body":"He represents himself"},{"startTime":4642.375,"endTime":4644.125,"body":"as having been outvoted."},{"startTime":4645.291,"endTime":4645.5,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4645.666,"endTime":4645.875,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4646.041,"endTime":4646.291,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4646.791,"endTime":4647.0,"body":"So,"},{"startTime":4648.5,"endTime":4649.166,"body":"but why?"},{"startTime":4650.166,"endTime":4651.541,"body":"Here's the important point."},{"startTime":4651.541,"endTime":4652.458,"body":"And look, I'm sorry to"},{"startTime":4652.458,"endTime":4653.333,"body":"be hard on you, Michael."},{"startTime":4653.5,"endTime":4654.791,"body":"I really do like you."},{"startTime":4655.083,"endTime":4657.541,"body":"My point is you've switched teams."},{"startTime":4658.25,"endTime":4660.0,"body":"You're now on team."},{"startTime":4660.0,"endTime":4661.291,"body":"Don't get your COVID booster."},{"startTime":4661.916,"endTime":4662.208,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4662.208,"endTime":4663.125,"body":"And I think that's wise."},{"startTime":4663.625,"endTime":4664.708,"body":"I think you were in"},{"startTime":4664.708,"endTime":4666.541,"body":"error to ever get one, but"},{"startTime":4667.875,"endTime":4671.166,"body":"why the information landscape changed is"},{"startTime":4671.166,"endTime":4674.416,"body":"because I went on Rogan and Malone went"},{"startTime":4674.416,"endTime":4677.125,"body":"on Rogan and McCullough went on Rogan and"},{"startTime":4677.125,"endTime":4679.0,"body":"Pierre Corey went on Rogan."},{"startTime":4679.0,"endTime":4680.791,"body":"And we talked about these things in"},{"startTime":4680.791,"endTime":4683.208,"body":"public bypassing the system"},{"startTime":4683.208,"endTime":4685.208,"body":"that was set up to shut us down."},{"startTime":4685.208,"endTime":4688.291,"body":"See, I don't think that's what it was"},{"startTime":4688.291,"endTime":4689.791,"body":"because that's very"},{"startTime":4689.791,"endTime":4691.833,"body":"top down conspiratorial."},{"startTime":4691.833,"endTime":4695.125,"body":"We know Bret says it's true, but we're"},{"startTime":4695.125,"endTime":4695.916,"body":"going to lie anyway."},{"startTime":4696.25,"endTime":4697.708,"body":"No, you don't know what I say is true."},{"startTime":4697.916,"endTime":4699.708,"body":"And frankly, one of the things that you"},{"startTime":4699.708,"endTime":4702.0,"body":"should hear me saying is that Bret"},{"startTime":4702.0,"endTime":4705.458,"body":"Weinstein does not believe that podcasts"},{"startTime":4705.458,"endTime":4707.916,"body":"are a proper substitute for functioning"},{"startTime":4707.958,"endTime":4710.083,"body":"institutions, but he also believes the"},{"startTime":4710.083,"endTime":4711.708,"body":"institutions aren't functioning."},{"startTime":4712.0,"endTime":4714.208,"body":"And you can tell because instead of"},{"startTime":4714.208,"endTime":4717.583,"body":"giving you noisy, good advice, instead of"},{"startTime":4717.583,"endTime":4720.291,"body":"giving you random advice, they give you"},{"startTime":4720.291,"endTime":4721.958,"body":"upside down pyramids."},{"startTime":4722.5,"endTime":4723.333,"body":"They give you the"},{"startTime":4723.333,"endTime":4725.083,"body":"inverse of the right advice."},{"startTime":4725.458,"endTime":4728.0,"body":"And that is an alarming fact."},{"startTime":4728.0,"endTime":4730.75,"body":"It tells you that there is a process in"},{"startTime":4730.75,"endTime":4732.583,"body":"there that knows what to do"},{"startTime":4732.583,"endTime":4733.708,"body":"and tells you the opposite."},{"startTime":4735.125,"endTime":4736.75,"body":"But Bret, why are you going with this"},{"startTime":4736.75,"endTime":4739.958,"body":"guy, Denny Rancour and against all the"},{"startTime":4739.958,"endTime":4741.708,"body":"other authorities that say that I didn't,"},{"startTime":4741.916,"endTime":4744.25,"body":"I said I'd seen a credible estimate."},{"startTime":4744.708,"endTime":4745.125,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4745.125,"endTime":4747.375,"body":"But the way it comes off, Bret, is like"},{"startTime":4747.375,"endTime":4749.958,"body":"you're going with this one guy here and"},{"startTime":4749.958,"endTime":4751.041,"body":"just saying, I don't"},{"startTime":4751.041,"endTime":4752.833,"body":"know about the no later on."},{"startTime":4753.083,"endTime":4755.333,"body":"I asked Ed Dowd about that estimate"},{"startTime":4755.333,"endTime":4756.291,"body":"because I'm interested"},{"startTime":4756.291,"endTime":4758.0,"body":"in having a good estimate."},{"startTime":4758.0,"endTime":4760.166,"body":"And Ed Dowd, who has done a calculation"},{"startTime":4760.166,"endTime":4763.291,"body":"based on entirely different data, says"},{"startTime":4763.291,"endTime":4766.208,"body":"his estimate has 17"},{"startTime":4766.416,"endTime":4767.833,"body":"million at the top end."},{"startTime":4768.375,"endTime":4772.125,"body":"He thinks the number is lower, but 17"},{"startTime":4772.125,"endTime":4773.958,"body":"million is a credible estimate."},{"startTime":4773.958,"endTime":4775.333,"body":"It's within the realm of possibility."},{"startTime":4776.125,"endTime":4777.416,"body":"Further, the damage from"},{"startTime":4777.416,"endTime":4779.125,"body":"these things is not stopping."},{"startTime":4779.791,"endTime":4781.666,"body":"If the number isn't 17 million,"},{"startTime":4782.708,"endTime":4784.416,"body":"it's heading in that direction."},{"startTime":4785.291,"endTime":4787.666,"body":"Now, we were told these things were safe."},{"startTime":4789.25,"endTime":4791.958,"body":"Safe means they do not carry a risk."},{"startTime":4792.875,"endTime":4794.833,"body":"They are so obviously not safe."},{"startTime":4795.875,"endTime":4798.666,"body":"Not only do we have empirical evidence"},{"startTime":4798.666,"endTime":4802.208,"body":"that people were harmed, lots of it, but"},{"startTime":4802.208,"endTime":4805.041,"body":"we also have the perfectly obvious fact,"},{"startTime":4805.041,"endTime":4806.833,"body":"which you and I have talked about before,"},{"startTime":4806.833,"endTime":4809.291,"body":"that if you look at what the manufacturer"},{"startTime":4809.291,"endTime":4813.0,"body":"says about how these vaccines work, it"},{"startTime":4813.0,"endTime":4814.875,"body":"will inevitably result in whatever"},{"startTime":4814.875,"endTime":4816.75,"body":"tissues do the heavy lifting."},{"startTime":4816.833,"endTime":4819.958,"body":"Whatever tissues transcribe that gene"},{"startTime":4819.958,"endTime":4822.458,"body":"into spike protein being"},{"startTime":4822.458,"endTime":4824.375,"body":"destroyed by your T cells."},{"startTime":4825.416,"endTime":4827.958,"body":"Now, you tell me, I know you're not a"},{"startTime":4827.958,"endTime":4830.083,"body":"biologist and I know that you don't want"},{"startTime":4830.083,"endTime":4831.291,"body":"to be asked this question,"},{"startTime":4832.583,"endTime":4835.375,"body":"but if they can't tell you that the shot"},{"startTime":4835.375,"endTime":4839.0,"body":"stays in your arm, how can they tell you"},{"startTime":4839.958,"endTime":4841.708,"body":"that if it's taken up in your heart, your"},{"startTime":4841.708,"endTime":4843.5,"body":"heart will not be damaged when your own"},{"startTime":4843.5,"endTime":4846.708,"body":"cells turn on it and destroy the cells"},{"startTime":4846.708,"endTime":4848.5,"body":"that are doing the transcribing because"},{"startTime":4848.5,"endTime":4850.125,"body":"they appear to be virally infected."},{"startTime":4850.5,"endTime":4852.083,"body":"Are you talking about myocarditis?"},{"startTime":4853.166,"endTime":4855.0,"body":"Well, you want the real answer?"},{"startTime":4856.0,"endTime":4857.916,"body":"Myocarditis is a limited hangout."},{"startTime":4858.625,"endTime":4859.75,"body":"Myocarditis means"},{"startTime":4859.75,"endTime":4861.916,"body":"inflammation of heart tissue."},{"startTime":4862.75,"endTime":4864.625,"body":"Inflammation of heart tissue is"},{"startTime":4864.666,"endTime":4867.666,"body":"downstream of a real pathology and the"},{"startTime":4867.666,"endTime":4869.333,"body":"pathology that is causing that"},{"startTime":4869.333,"endTime":4870.75,"body":"myocarditis is the"},{"startTime":4870.75,"endTime":4872.208,"body":"destruction of heart cells."},{"startTime":4872.208,"endTime":4873.916,"body":"It is the wounding of the"},{"startTime":4873.916,"endTime":4876.0,"body":"heart by your immune system."},{"startTime":4876.583,"endTime":4879.0,"body":"Now, if I recall off its explanation for"},{"startTime":4879.0,"endTime":4881.0,"body":"that was COVID-19, its"},{"startTime":4881.0,"endTime":4883.166,"body":"virus itself causes myocarditis."},{"startTime":4883.166,"endTime":4884.5,"body":"Yes, that is what they say."},{"startTime":4884.5,"endTime":4886.5,"body":"And I'm sure if you query an LLM, it will"},{"startTime":4886.5,"endTime":4888.083,"body":"tell you that very same thing."},{"startTime":4888.458,"endTime":4891.041,"body":"On the other hand, the evidence that"},{"startTime":4891.041,"endTime":4892.541,"body":"COVID causes"},{"startTime":4892.541,"endTime":4895.916,"body":"myocarditis is extremely weak."},{"startTime":4896.5,"endTime":4898.541,"body":"This is a case where you have a"},{"startTime":4898.541,"endTime":4901.791,"body":"categorization error where lots of people"},{"startTime":4901.791,"endTime":4904.0,"body":"who were vaccinated and then had"},{"startTime":4904.0,"endTime":4906.625,"body":"myocarditis are filed as unvaccinated."},{"startTime":4907.75,"endTime":4908.833,"body":"It's a false signal."},{"startTime":4910.541,"endTime":4913.041,"body":"And Michael, the important thing is you"},{"startTime":4913.041,"endTime":4916.958,"body":"have detected the truth enough that you"},{"startTime":4916.958,"endTime":4918.416,"body":"have stopped getting these shots."},{"startTime":4919.583,"endTime":4919.75,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4919.75,"endTime":4922.458,"body":"Well, I only just got the initial"},{"startTime":4923.958,"endTime":4924.375,"body":"vaccine."},{"startTime":4924.666,"endTime":4926.083,"body":"I didn't get boosters and stuff because"},{"startTime":4926.083,"endTime":4927.75,"body":"I'm pretty healthy and so on."},{"startTime":4927.958,"endTime":4928.5,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":4928.875,"endTime":4929.875,"body":"You should have gotten none."},{"startTime":4930.458,"endTime":4931.416,"body":"But back"},{"startTime":4931.416,"endTime":4934.541,"body":"to the larger epistemological question,"},{"startTime":4934.541,"endTime":4935.875,"body":"how do you change the system?"},{"startTime":4935.875,"endTime":4939.166,"body":"Well, I'm sure you know Jay Bhattacharya."},{"startTime":4939.166,"endTime":4940.583,"body":"I spent a week with him at"},{"startTime":4940.583,"endTime":4941.666,"body":"one of Peter Thiel's gigs."},{"startTime":4942.125,"endTime":4943.125,"body":"And this is just the"},{"startTime":4943.125,"endTime":4944.166,"body":"nicest guy in the world."},{"startTime":4945.041,"endTime":4946.375,"body":"Super smart, very"},{"startTime":4946.833,"endTime":4948.041,"body":"wise about these things."},{"startTime":4948.708,"endTime":4950.5,"body":"And now he's in the system"},{"startTime":4950.5,"endTime":4952.166,"body":"reforming it from within."},{"startTime":4952.916,"endTime":4953.875,"body":"And he's at Stanford."},{"startTime":4954.041,"endTime":4956.416,"body":"He's a published figure and so on."},{"startTime":4956.958,"endTime":4958.458,"body":"So in other words, he's not doing an end"},{"startTime":4958.458,"endTime":4959.333,"body":"run around the system"},{"startTime":4959.333,"endTime":4960.375,"body":"saying, \"Hey, listen to me.\""},{"startTime":4960.375,"endTime":4962.25,"body":"He's like, \"You guys got"},{"startTime":4962.25,"endTime":4963.541,"body":"it wrong and here's why."},{"startTime":4963.541,"endTime":4964.541,"body":"And I'm going to publish this."},{"startTime":4964.541,"endTime":4965.166,"body":"I'm going to state it."},{"startTime":4965.166,"endTime":4966.0,"body":"I'm going to go to conferences."},{"startTime":4966.458,"endTime":4967.541,"body":"I'm going to speak about it."},{"startTime":4967.541,"endTime":4968.416,"body":"Now I'm in government.\""},{"startTime":4969.125,"endTime":4969.333,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4969.416,"endTime":4970.416,"body":"To reform it from within."},{"startTime":4970.708,"endTime":4972.625,"body":"To me, that's the system working."},{"startTime":4974.291,"endTime":4975.166,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":4976.0,"endTime":4979.291,"body":"On the other hand, how did this happen?"},{"startTime":4979.333,"endTime":4982.125,"body":"How did this happen?"},{"startTime":4982.125,"endTime":4982.458,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":4982.833,"endTime":4983.666,"body":"And then another example."},{"startTime":4984.125,"endTime":4984.333,"body":"No, no."},{"startTime":4984.333,"endTime":4984.625,"body":"Hold on."},{"startTime":4984.875,"endTime":4986.208,"body":"I've had lots of..."},{"startTime":4986.416,"endTime":4987.083,"body":"It happened."},{"startTime":4987.916,"endTime":4989.0,"body":"Because we did an end"},{"startTime":4989.0,"endTime":4990.208,"body":"run around the system."},{"startTime":4990.875,"endTime":4991.458,"body":"Well, I don't know."},{"startTime":4991.75,"endTime":4993.833,"body":"There's quite a few books out now about"},{"startTime":4993.833,"endTime":4996.583,"body":"how disastrous it was to close the"},{"startTime":4996.583,"endTime":4999.083,"body":"schools, to close the beaches, to close"},{"startTime":4999.083,"endTime":5000.208,"body":"restaurants and so on."},{"startTime":5000.541,"endTime":5001.5,"body":"And that they knew."},{"startTime":5002.083,"endTime":5002.375,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5002.375,"endTime":5005.666,"body":"So I forget the author's name now, Dan."},{"startTime":5006.0,"endTime":5008.166,"body":"But it's a journalist who tracked all"},{"startTime":5008.166,"endTime":5010.791,"body":"this down that, let's see, what was it?"},{"startTime":5010.916,"endTime":5012.541,"body":"In March of 2020, they"},{"startTime":5012.541,"endTime":5014.458,"body":"decided, \"Okay, we're going to..."},{"startTime":5014.916,"endTime":5016.375,"body":"No, I think they decided we're going to"},{"startTime":5016.375,"endTime":5018.875,"body":"keep the schools open in the fall.\""},{"startTime":5019.083,"endTime":5020.75,"body":"And then Trump said in June,"},{"startTime":5021.125,"endTime":5022.5,"body":"\"I want to open the schools.\""},{"startTime":5022.5,"endTime":5024.5,"body":"So they said, \"In that case,\" because"},{"startTime":5024.5,"endTime":5025.75,"body":"they had Trump Derangement Syndrome,"},{"startTime":5026.208,"endTime":5027.583,"body":"\"We're going to close the schools because"},{"startTime":5027.583,"endTime":5028.458,"body":"Trump wants them open.\""},{"startTime":5028.75,"endTime":5029.458,"body":"This was kind of..."},{"startTime":5029.458,"endTime":5031.416,"body":"He had the kind of the paperwork, the"},{"startTime":5031.416,"endTime":5032.375,"body":"receipts for this,"},{"startTime":5032.75,"endTime":5033.833,"body":"which looked pretty damning."},{"startTime":5034.666,"endTime":5035.583,"body":"And that it was not just..."},{"startTime":5036.041,"endTime":5037.166,"body":"So from my perspective,"},{"startTime":5037.166,"endTime":5038.0,"body":"that's just incompetence."},{"startTime":5038.5,"endTime":5040.041,"body":"It doesn't look like it"},{"startTime":5040.041,"endTime":5041.0,"body":"was just incompetence."},{"startTime":5041.0,"endTime":5042.5,"body":"It looked like there was something more."},{"startTime":5042.5,"endTime":5043.833,"body":"So I'll give you that one."},{"startTime":5044.208,"endTime":5045.666,"body":"But that doesn't mean every single thing"},{"startTime":5045.666,"endTime":5048.458,"body":"that turned out to be wrong means"},{"startTime":5048.458,"endTime":5050.041,"body":"everything that they say is wrong."},{"startTime":5050.375,"endTime":5050.583,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":5050.666,"endTime":5052.875,"body":"I mean, so the system's working in that"},{"startTime":5052.875,"endTime":5055.125,"body":"now we're finding out they lied about"},{"startTime":5055.125,"endTime":5056.791,"body":"this or they were wrong about that, some"},{"startTime":5056.791,"endTime":5057.541,"body":"of the stuff you said."},{"startTime":5058.5,"endTime":5059.333,"body":"But that's the system"},{"startTime":5059.333,"endTime":5060.333,"body":"working from within."},{"startTime":5061.083,"endTime":5063.0,"body":"We have journalists writing"},{"startTime":5063.0,"endTime":5064.583,"body":"books and writing articles."},{"startTime":5064.583,"endTime":5066.041,"body":"It's not the system working from within."},{"startTime":5067.0,"endTime":5067.916,"body":"Something very"},{"startTime":5067.916,"endTime":5070.625,"body":"unusual happened with Maha."},{"startTime":5072.041,"endTime":5076.666,"body":"People who were derided as crazy are now"},{"startTime":5076.666,"endTime":5081.125,"body":"running the system because they rode the"},{"startTime":5081.125,"endTime":5083.958,"body":"Trump wave into office."},{"startTime":5085.333,"endTime":5090.5,"body":"That happened because of the end run that"},{"startTime":5090.5,"endTime":5092.166,"body":"you're claiming is not effective."},{"startTime":5094.708,"endTime":5096.0,"body":"Bobby Kennedy was"},{"startTime":5096.0,"endTime":5101.5,"body":"treated as a loony anti-vaxxer."},{"startTime":5102.875,"endTime":5106.583,"body":"And he is in office because an awful lot"},{"startTime":5106.583,"endTime":5107.958,"body":"of us figured out that that"},{"startTime":5107.958,"endTime":5110.791,"body":"story was wildly inaccurate."},{"startTime":5112.791,"endTime":5115.875,"body":"And his popularity,"},{"startTime":5117.333,"endTime":5121.166,"body":"coupled with Trump's popularity, put them"},{"startTime":5121.166,"endTime":5122.083,"body":"in the winner's circle."},{"startTime":5122.958,"endTime":5125.666,"body":"And now he has ascended to an office with"},{"startTime":5125.666,"endTime":5127.25,"body":"an immense amount of power."},{"startTime":5128.333,"endTime":5130.333,"body":"That is the reason that"},{"startTime":5130.333,"endTime":5132.375,"body":"the food pyramid has fallen."},{"startTime":5132.791,"endTime":5136.166,"body":"That is the reason that our childhood"},{"startTime":5136.166,"endTime":5140.0,"body":"vaccine schedule is being revised to"},{"startTime":5140.0,"endTime":5142.958,"body":"match the rest of the civilized world."},{"startTime":5143.458,"endTime":5145.583,"body":"That is the reason that we are not"},{"startTime":5145.583,"endTime":5148.625,"body":"recommending COVID boosters to pregnant"},{"startTime":5148.625,"endTime":5150.5,"body":"women, to healthy children."},{"startTime":5152.208,"endTime":5157.583,"body":"This is the rebels in the hills, the rare"},{"startTime":5157.583,"endTime":5161.208,"body":"case where they have ascended to a level"},{"startTime":5161.208,"endTime":5164.833,"body":"of power and are actually instituting"},{"startTime":5164.833,"endTime":5167.583,"body":"reasonable reforms that frankly should"},{"startTime":5167.583,"endTime":5171.833,"body":"have been done in most cases decades ago."},{"startTime":5172.541,"endTime":5173.416,"body":"Okay, a couple things on that."},{"startTime":5173.625,"endTime":5176.875,"body":"So, RFKJ has pushed this idea that"},{"startTime":5176.875,"endTime":5178.416,"body":"vaccines cause autism, which has been"},{"startTime":5178.416,"endTime":5181.333,"body":"around since that paper in 1996 in the"},{"startTime":5181.333,"endTime":5182.916,"body":"Lancet that got retracted for fraud."},{"startTime":5184.583,"endTime":5186.375,"body":"And there's still been no credible"},{"startTime":5186.375,"endTime":5188.166,"body":"evidence that vaccines cause autism."},{"startTime":5188.208,"endTime":5189.5,"body":"We don't know what causes autism."},{"startTime":5189.75,"endTime":5190.791,"body":"So that kind of opens"},{"startTime":5190.791,"endTime":5192.458,"body":"up the field for just..."},{"startTime":5192.458,"endTime":5194.166,"body":"No, you say no credible evidence."},{"startTime":5194.166,"endTime":5195.25,"body":"That is not true."},{"startTime":5195.833,"endTime":5198.166,"body":"There is a battle over evidence."},{"startTime":5198.5,"endTime":5199.708,"body":"There is evidence for,"},{"startTime":5199.958,"endTime":5201.25,"body":"there is evidence against."},{"startTime":5201.5,"endTime":5202.25,"body":"And I happen to know..."},{"startTime":5202.25,"endTime":5203.291,"body":"Yeah, but this is like there's evidence"},{"startTime":5203.291,"endTime":5204.166,"body":"against the Big Bang."},{"startTime":5204.375,"endTime":5205.125,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":5205.541,"endTime":5208.0,"body":"Like the 1% guy, the one guy that says,"},{"startTime":5208.0,"endTime":5209.041,"body":"\"I don't think the Big Bang happened.\""},{"startTime":5209.041,"endTime":5209.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5209.666,"endTime":5212.0,"body":"But the vast majority say it did."},{"startTime":5213.041,"endTime":5213.833,"body":"And here's their evidence."},{"startTime":5213.875,"endTime":5214.5,"body":"No, no, no."},{"startTime":5214.5,"endTime":5215.958,"body":"That is not how this works."},{"startTime":5216.5,"endTime":5217.416,"body":"That is not how this works."},{"startTime":5218.125,"endTime":5220.375,"body":"When science functions, it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":5220.375,"endTime":5223.333,"body":"that everybody says one thing and one"},{"startTime":5223.333,"endTime":5224.75,"body":"person says the other."},{"startTime":5224.75,"endTime":5226.25,"body":"It doesn't matter, frankly, even if no"},{"startTime":5226.25,"endTime":5227.375,"body":"person says the other."},{"startTime":5227.958,"endTime":5230.958,"body":"You have competing ideas and"},{"startTime":5230.958,"endTime":5233.0,"body":"you have a body of evidence."},{"startTime":5233.625,"endTime":5235.875,"body":"And over time, if the system is actually"},{"startTime":5235.875,"endTime":5238.333,"body":"functioning in a scientific way, you will"},{"startTime":5238.333,"endTime":5241.291,"body":"end up with the model that more closely"},{"startTime":5241.291,"endTime":5244.375,"body":"matches the evidence that assumes less"},{"startTime":5244.375,"endTime":5247.5,"body":"and that predicts future experiments."},{"startTime":5248.5,"endTime":5248.541,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5248.541,"endTime":5249.916,"body":"So you think there's still some link"},{"startTime":5249.916,"endTime":5251.25,"body":"between vaccines and autism?"},{"startTime":5252.0,"endTime":5253.583,"body":"Well, I didn't say that."},{"startTime":5253.583,"endTime":5255.541,"body":"If you're asking me that question,"},{"startTime":5257.25,"endTime":5261.416,"body":"I believe it is highly likely"},{"startTime":5261.416,"endTime":5263.125,"body":"that there is an association."},{"startTime":5265.166,"endTime":5265.291,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5265.291,"endTime":5266.0,"body":"I don't see it."},{"startTime":5266.458,"endTime":5267.125,"body":"I mean, the whole thing got"},{"startTime":5267.125,"endTime":5268.833,"body":"started on a fraudulent study."},{"startTime":5269.25,"endTime":5269.833,"body":"Fraudulent study."},{"startTime":5269.833,"endTime":5270.291,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":5270.458,"endTime":5271.458,"body":"But let's say that you..."},{"startTime":5272.458,"endTime":5273.625,"body":"A, I don't believe that that"},{"startTime":5273.625,"endTime":5275.375,"body":"is as clear as you think it is."},{"startTime":5275.833,"endTime":5279.708,"body":"But if the idea is Michael Shermer is"},{"startTime":5279.708,"endTime":5284.041,"body":"against fraudulent studies, then I would"},{"startTime":5284.041,"endTime":5287.416,"body":"ask you to look into the work that"},{"startTime":5287.416,"endTime":5289.791,"body":"established the safety of aluminum"},{"startTime":5289.791,"endTime":5291.541,"body":"adjuvants in vaccines."},{"startTime":5295.083,"endTime":5296.25,"body":"Well, weren't those taken out?"},{"startTime":5296.958,"endTime":5297.416,"body":"I don't know what,"},{"startTime":5297.625,"endTime":5299.375,"body":"what am I thinking of it?"},{"startTime":5299.541,"endTime":5300.75,"body":"It was like 1999."},{"startTime":5301.458,"endTime":5302.125,"body":"No, mercury."},{"startTime":5302.125,"endTime":5303.75,"body":"You're talking about mercury, which"},{"startTime":5303.75,"endTime":5305.75,"body":"wasn't fully taken out, but was taken out"},{"startTime":5305.75,"endTime":5307.583,"body":"of most vaccines and replaced with"},{"startTime":5307.583,"endTime":5308.916,"body":"aluminum on the basis"},{"startTime":5308.916,"endTime":5310.125,"body":"that aluminum was safe."},{"startTime":5311.333,"endTime":5314.958,"body":"Aluminum was tested on four rabbits."},{"startTime":5315.5,"endTime":5318.041,"body":"The data for one of the rabbits was lost"},{"startTime":5318.041,"endTime":5319.125,"body":"and two of the rabbits"},{"startTime":5319.125,"endTime":5320.791,"body":"came up pathological."},{"startTime":5322.0,"endTime":5323.041,"body":"So obviously it's safe."},{"startTime":5324.5,"endTime":5325.041,"body":"This is not..."},{"startTime":5325.833,"endTime":5326.333,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":5326.333,"endTime":5326.958,"body":"Yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":5327.125,"endTime":5329.0,"body":"Well, but you know, no, the point is you"},{"startTime":5329.0,"endTime":5331.0,"body":"want to go after"},{"startTime":5331.0,"endTime":5334.416,"body":"Wakefield for a fraudulent study."},{"startTime":5336.041,"endTime":5338.958,"body":"I'm telling you, you should look into the"},{"startTime":5338.958,"endTime":5340.375,"body":"studies that establish the"},{"startTime":5340.375,"endTime":5342.625,"body":"safety of these vaccines."},{"startTime":5343.25,"endTime":5345.875,"body":"All the work that you and I assume, I"},{"startTime":5345.875,"endTime":5347.75,"body":"assumed, you know, I think as I've"},{"startTime":5347.75,"endTime":5350.166,"body":"mentioned to you before in Heather and my"},{"startTime":5350.166,"endTime":5353.333,"body":"book, which we published in 2020, we said"},{"startTime":5353.333,"endTime":5355.625,"body":"that vaccines were one of the three great"},{"startTime":5355.625,"endTime":5357.375,"body":"triumphs of modern medicine."},{"startTime":5357.916,"endTime":5359.0,"body":"The other two being"},{"startTime":5359.0,"endTime":5360.5,"body":"antibiotics and surgery."},{"startTime":5363.0,"endTime":5366.25,"body":"We have been schooled in the COVID era"},{"startTime":5366.25,"endTime":5370.041,"body":"first about the mRNA vaccines, which we"},{"startTime":5370.041,"endTime":5371.5,"body":"came to understand in detail."},{"startTime":5371.5,"endTime":5374.333,"body":"And from there were reluctantly dragged"},{"startTime":5374.333,"endTime":5376.541,"body":"into looking at all of the vaccines that"},{"startTime":5376.541,"endTime":5377.583,"body":"we gave our own children."},{"startTime":5378.791,"endTime":5380.125,"body":"And it's a horror show."},{"startTime":5380.416,"endTime":5384.083,"body":"The work that you as a normal believer in"},{"startTime":5384.083,"endTime":5386.583,"body":"science imagine must have been done where"},{"startTime":5386.583,"endTime":5388.666,"body":"these things were tested against an inert"},{"startTime":5388.666,"endTime":5390.125,"body":"placebo wasn't done."},{"startTime":5391.083,"endTime":5392.625,"body":"And that's fraud."},{"startTime":5394.791,"endTime":5396.0,"body":"Another example."},{"startTime":5396.458,"endTime":5399.208,"body":"So RFKJ's latest explanation for autism"},{"startTime":5399.208,"endTime":5402.333,"body":"is Tylenol ibuprofen in the third"},{"startTime":5402.333,"endTime":5403.583,"body":"trimester of pregnant women."},{"startTime":5404.375,"endTime":5404.625,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5404.625,"endTime":5405.25,"body":"Is there a connection?"},{"startTime":5405.583,"endTime":5405.791,"body":"Maybe."},{"startTime":5406.625,"endTime":5409.375,"body":"But as our doc, Skeptoc wrote in Skeptic,"},{"startTime":5410.5,"endTime":5412.375,"body":"not taking, why were women in the third"},{"startTime":5412.375,"endTime":5413.5,"body":"trimester taking Tylenol?"},{"startTime":5413.5,"endTime":5414.791,"body":"Because they had massive fevers."},{"startTime":5415.0,"endTime":5415.833,"body":"Why did they have massive?"},{"startTime":5415.833,"endTime":5416.416,"body":"Well, because they are"},{"startTime":5416.416,"endTime":5418.208,"body":"having issues in their pregnancy."},{"startTime":5418.708,"endTime":5420.583,"body":"What happens to those women who didn't"},{"startTime":5420.583,"endTime":5421.75,"body":"take Tylenol and just let"},{"startTime":5421.75,"endTime":5423.333,"body":"the fever burn itself out?"},{"startTime":5423.583,"endTime":5424.333,"body":"Well, we don't know."},{"startTime":5425.208,"endTime":5425.541,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":5425.541,"endTime":5428.083,"body":"So you have, you don't have exactly a"},{"startTime":5428.125,"endTime":5429.416,"body":"controlled experiment there."},{"startTime":5430.041,"endTime":5431.458,"body":"You're picking out the hits and"},{"startTime":5431.458,"endTime":5432.541,"body":"forgetting all the misses."},{"startTime":5432.541,"endTime":5434.0,"body":"What about the people that didn't take"},{"startTime":5434.0,"endTime":5436.166,"body":"Tylenol and they had worse consequences"},{"startTime":5436.166,"endTime":5437.5,"body":"for not reducing their"},{"startTime":5437.5,"endTime":5438.5,"body":"fever on their pregnancy."},{"startTime":5439.083,"endTime":5440.875,"body":"Anyway, that's just an example of, you"},{"startTime":5440.875,"endTime":5442.416,"body":"know, plucking out of the air."},{"startTime":5442.416,"endTime":5443.291,"body":"Here's something weird."},{"startTime":5443.625,"endTime":5445.166,"body":"Well, I don't know the third trimester."},{"startTime":5445.166,"endTime":5446.25,"body":"There might be something to it."},{"startTime":5446.25,"endTime":5446.5,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":5446.5,"endTime":5448.166,"body":"I don't know what it's an example of."},{"startTime":5448.166,"endTime":5449.125,"body":"Frankly, Heather and I"},{"startTime":5449.125,"endTime":5450.375,"body":"have looked into Tylenol."},{"startTime":5450.833,"endTime":5451.583,"body":"I've been aware of the"},{"startTime":5451.583,"endTime":5453.208,"body":"dangers of Tylenol for decades."},{"startTime":5453.5,"endTime":5455.458,"body":"It's an extremely dangerous drug."},{"startTime":5456.083,"endTime":5457.791,"body":"You'd be hard pressed to find another"},{"startTime":5457.791,"endTime":5458.958,"body":"easily available drug"},{"startTime":5458.958,"endTime":5461.291,"body":"that's as dangerous as Tylenol."},{"startTime":5461.291,"endTime":5462.583,"body":"And yet you'll find it everywhere."},{"startTime":5463.291,"endTime":5463.958,"body":"What about a leave?"},{"startTime":5464.166,"endTime":5465.541,"body":"I take a leave from my bum shoulder."},{"startTime":5466.25,"endTime":5466.791,"body":"Should I stop?"},{"startTime":5467.5,"endTime":5467.666,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":5468.291,"endTime":5468.958,"body":"How about aspirin?"},{"startTime":5469.416,"endTime":5470.041,"body":"I like aspirin."},{"startTime":5470.333,"endTime":5472.333,"body":"Aspirin is the one I take and it's not"},{"startTime":5472.333,"endTime":5475.291,"body":"perfectly safe, but I believe it's way"},{"startTime":5475.291,"endTime":5477.458,"body":"safer than any of the NSAIDs."},{"startTime":5478.291,"endTime":5478.5,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5478.833,"endTime":5479.625,"body":"Take it with plenty of water."},{"startTime":5479.875,"endTime":5480.25,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":5481.333,"endTime":5483.0,"body":"Well, no, look, I'm just, look,"},{"startTime":5484.458,"endTime":5488.333,"body":"I try to live a consistent life."},{"startTime":5488.708,"endTime":5490.541,"body":"I try to tell the truth."},{"startTime":5490.916,"endTime":5493.708,"body":"I try to live as well as I can, according"},{"startTime":5493.708,"endTime":5496.5,"body":"to the truths I believe in, to be honest"},{"startTime":5496.5,"endTime":5498.125,"body":"about my uncertainties."},{"startTime":5498.458,"endTime":5499.208,"body":"I'm telling you,"},{"startTime":5499.208,"endTime":5501.5,"body":"Tylenol is a dangerous drug."},{"startTime":5502.083,"endTime":5503.416,"body":"The idea of giving it to"},{"startTime":5503.416,"endTime":5505.958,"body":"pregnant women is alarming."},{"startTime":5506.541,"endTime":5507.75,"body":"Are there cases in which"},{"startTime":5507.75,"endTime":5509.291,"body":"it's better than not giving it?"},{"startTime":5509.541,"endTime":5514.625,"body":"Maybe, but I am alarmed at the level of"},{"startTime":5514.625,"endTime":5517.791,"body":"first principles of administering a drug"},{"startTime":5517.791,"endTime":5520.0,"body":"that dangerous to a woman with a"},{"startTime":5520.0,"endTime":5522.75,"body":"developing child inside of her."},{"startTime":5524.833,"endTime":5525.708,"body":"Does it cause autism?"},{"startTime":5526.0,"endTime":5526.416,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":5527.791,"endTime":5529.666,"body":"And I don't know that the vaccines do"},{"startTime":5529.666,"endTime":5535.416,"body":"either, but if you want to actually"},{"startTime":5535.416,"endTime":5538.0,"body":"investigate that question, maybe he would"},{"startTime":5538.0,"endTime":5539.375,"body":"be a good candidate for"},{"startTime":5539.375,"endTime":5540.75,"body":"writing something for skeptic."},{"startTime":5541.208,"endTime":5543.333,"body":"You should talk to Toby Rogers."},{"startTime":5544.375,"endTime":5545.083,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5545.333,"endTime":5547.208,"body":"I don't know Toby, but you don't know."},{"startTime":5547.791,"endTime":5548.666,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":5548.666,"endTime":5548.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5548.875,"endTime":5550.375,"body":"But I'll give you a standing invitation."},{"startTime":5550.375,"endTime":5551.166,"body":"Like I did your brother"},{"startTime":5551.208,"endTime":5552.791,"body":"to publish in skeptic."},{"startTime":5554.333,"endTime":5556.625,"body":"And we could do a target article and have"},{"startTime":5556.625,"endTime":5558.208,"body":"people comment on it to me."},{"startTime":5558.208,"endTime":5560.041,"body":"That's still working in the system."},{"startTime":5561.416,"endTime":5561.666,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":5561.666,"endTime":5563.416,"body":"Well, I would argue it's kind of an end"},{"startTime":5563.416,"endTime":5565.166,"body":"run, but I'm all about it."},{"startTime":5565.458,"endTime":5567.0,"body":"Maybe I'm an end runner also."},{"startTime":5568.291,"endTime":5569.625,"body":"Look, I think you are."},{"startTime":5569.625,"endTime":5571.041,"body":"And maybe it's why, in spite of my"},{"startTime":5571.041,"endTime":5571.833,"body":"yelling at you a few"},{"startTime":5571.833,"endTime":5573.708,"body":"minutes ago, we get along."},{"startTime":5574.041,"endTime":5578.875,"body":"So anyway, where should we go from here?"},{"startTime":5579.541,"endTime":5580.625,"body":"Oh, well, okay."},{"startTime":5580.625,"endTime":5581.25,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":5581.25,"endTime":5582.208,"body":"I wrote a book on truth."},{"startTime":5583.0,"endTime":5585.708,"body":"We've kind of done a deep dive on"},{"startTime":5585.875,"endTime":5586.875,"body":"epistemology there,"},{"startTime":5586.875,"endTime":5588.416,"body":"which is super interesting."},{"startTime":5588.416,"endTime":5590.75,"body":"And I just should note, I guess, as a"},{"startTime":5590.75,"endTime":5593.75,"body":"historian of science, much of what you"},{"startTime":5593.75,"endTime":5595.666,"body":"say is true, but on the"},{"startTime":5595.666,"endTime":5597.916,"body":"other hand, things do change."},{"startTime":5599.5,"endTime":5601.708,"body":"I mean, maybe it's the Planck principle"},{"startTime":5601.708,"endTime":5603.625,"body":"that for new theories to be accepted, the"},{"startTime":5603.625,"endTime":5605.166,"body":"old guard has to die."},{"startTime":5605.166,"endTime":5606.208,"body":"It could be that, but the"},{"startTime":5606.208,"endTime":5607.416,"body":"change does happen, right?"},{"startTime":5608.0,"endTime":5609.541,"body":"Or else we wouldn't know the things that"},{"startTime":5609.541,"endTime":5612.5,"body":"we know today about whatever."},{"startTime":5612.833,"endTime":5616.208,"body":"I mean, the age of the universe and when"},{"startTime":5616.208,"endTime":5616.916,"body":"dinosaurs went"},{"startTime":5616.916,"endTime":5617.958,"body":"extinct and all that stuff."},{"startTime":5618.291,"endTime":5621.583,"body":"So I think maybe an interesting topic in"},{"startTime":5621.583,"endTime":5624.416,"body":"which we share some overlap on religion."},{"startTime":5625.25,"endTime":5627.125,"body":"I've taken a different tact in this book,"},{"startTime":5628.291,"endTime":5629.541,"body":"sort of against what a"},{"startTime":5629.541,"endTime":5631.5,"body":"lot of atheists approach."},{"startTime":5632.5,"endTime":5633.416,"body":"Religion is just a bunch of"},{"startTime":5633.416,"endTime":5635.291,"body":"bullshit and it's just wrong."},{"startTime":5636.541,"endTime":5639.166,"body":"That I'm taking more of a sort of Joseph"},{"startTime":5639.166,"endTime":5641.125,"body":"Campbell, Jordan Peterson, if you will,"},{"startTime":5641.875,"endTime":5643.958,"body":"mythical truth or psychological truth."},{"startTime":5645.541,"endTime":5649.333,"body":"And my analogy is like, so people send me"},{"startTime":5649.333,"endTime":5651.25,"body":"articles, skeptic about, here's the"},{"startTime":5651.25,"endTime":5652.291,"body":"actual explanation for"},{"startTime":5652.291,"endTime":5653.625,"body":"the party in the Red Sea."},{"startTime":5653.625,"endTime":5655.708,"body":"It was an earthquake or these"},{"startTime":5655.708,"endTime":5657.541,"body":"plague of locusts and frogs."},{"startTime":5658.166,"endTime":5660.375,"body":"It was actually caused by this ecological"},{"startTime":5660.375,"endTime":5661.583,"body":"change and there was"},{"startTime":5661.583,"endTime":5662.625,"body":"a drought or whatever."},{"startTime":5663.291,"endTime":5667.208,"body":"Or the swoon theory that when Jesus was"},{"startTime":5667.208,"endTime":5670.375,"body":"on the cross, they gave him this drug"},{"startTime":5670.375,"endTime":5673.666,"body":"through his side or something, and then"},{"startTime":5673.666,"endTime":5674.541,"body":"he went into a coma."},{"startTime":5675.291,"endTime":5677.041,"body":"And then he was asleep for three days in"},{"startTime":5677.041,"endTime":5678.0,"body":"the coma in the tomb, and"},{"startTime":5678.0,"endTime":5678.833,"body":"then they whisked him off."},{"startTime":5679.0,"endTime":5680.708,"body":"And if you want to go full Dan Brown, he"},{"startTime":5680.708,"endTime":5683.083,"body":"went to France and married Mary Magdalene"},{"startTime":5683.083,"endTime":5684.958,"body":"and they had babies and so on."},{"startTime":5685.041,"endTime":5685.25,"body":"Anyway,"},{"startTime":5686.375,"endTime":5689.125,"body":"but to me, this would be like going in"},{"startTime":5689.125,"endTime":5692.25,"body":"search of, what is it, the railroad"},{"startTime":5692.25,"endTime":5694.958,"body":"station nine and three quarters in J.K."},{"startTime":5694.958,"endTime":5695.833,"body":"Rowling's Harry Potter."},{"startTime":5696.791,"endTime":5697.875,"body":"And when I made a joke about"},{"startTime":5697.875,"endTime":5699.125,"body":"that, there actually is one."},{"startTime":5699.375,"endTime":5702.041,"body":"Some fans built a nine and three quarter"},{"startTime":5702.041,"endTime":5703.541,"body":"railroad station there."},{"startTime":5703.916,"endTime":5706.25,"body":"Or is there a middle earth in J.R.R."},{"startTime":5706.25,"endTime":5708.083,"body":"Tolkien's Lord of the Rings?"},{"startTime":5708.666,"endTime":5711.0,"body":"Well, by asking those questions, you're"},{"startTime":5711.0,"endTime":5712.291,"body":"missing the point of the story."},{"startTime":5712.791,"endTime":5714.333,"body":"It's not a true story."},{"startTime":5715.0,"endTime":5717.0,"body":"It's a fictional story that has deeper"},{"startTime":5717.0,"endTime":5719.5,"body":"truths, like the Brothers Karamazov in"},{"startTime":5719.5,"endTime":5720.75,"body":"Dostoyevsky's novel."},{"startTime":5721.041,"endTime":5722.916,"body":"There are no brothers Karamazov."},{"startTime":5723.291,"endTime":5724.5,"body":"He's just made up a story,"},{"startTime":5724.708,"endTime":5726.166,"body":"but it's deeper truths about"},{"startTime":5730.416,"endTime":5732.25,"body":"deeper truths about this."},{"startTime":5732.25,"endTime":5733.791,"body":"What makes great literature great."},{"startTime":5734.0,"endTime":5736.208,"body":"It's touching things that are true about"},{"startTime":5736.208,"endTime":5739.0,"body":"the human condition, jealousy and anger"},{"startTime":5739.0,"endTime":5740.416,"body":"and love and power"},{"startTime":5740.416,"endTime":5742.625,"body":"and deception and so on."},{"startTime":5742.833,"endTime":5746.166,"body":"That's what, you know, so to me, biblical"},{"startTime":5746.166,"endTime":5748.666,"body":"stories are narratives."},{"startTime":5748.875,"endTime":5750.541,"body":"They're literature that carry"},{"startTime":5750.541,"endTime":5752.708,"body":"some other message for people."},{"startTime":5752.708,"endTime":5754.666,"body":"And I go so far as to say that that"},{"startTime":5754.666,"endTime":5755.625,"body":"includes the resurrection."},{"startTime":5756.083,"endTime":5757.166,"body":"Didn't literally happen."},{"startTime":5757.625,"endTime":5758.708,"body":"No one could come back from"},{"startTime":5758.708,"endTime":5759.75,"body":"the dead after three days."},{"startTime":5760.166,"endTime":5762.708,"body":"But you're missing the deeper point of,"},{"startTime":5762.708,"endTime":5764.833,"body":"you know, being born again, starting"},{"startTime":5764.833,"endTime":5767.791,"body":"over, redemption, forgiveness, you know,"},{"startTime":5767.791,"endTime":5770.0,"body":"that kind of oppression, redemption."},{"startTime":5770.291,"endTime":5771.5,"body":"We're going to start over and we're going"},{"startTime":5771.5,"endTime":5773.208,"body":"to overthrow our oppressor."},{"startTime":5773.208,"endTime":5775.125,"body":"This is what to me, Jesus meant when he,"},{"startTime":5775.125,"endTime":5776.666,"body":"you know, he said, heavens within you."},{"startTime":5777.458,"endTime":5779.458,"body":"And there are those standing here who"},{"startTime":5779.458,"endTime":5781.458,"body":"will not taste death before you see the"},{"startTime":5781.458,"endTime":5782.333,"body":"son of man come again."},{"startTime":5782.5,"endTime":5785.583,"body":"He's talking about the people, the Jewish"},{"startTime":5785.583,"endTime":5787.0,"body":"people oppressed by the Romans."},{"startTime":5787.375,"endTime":5789.583,"body":"Now, you know, we have to state make"},{"startTime":5789.583,"endTime":5792.166,"body":"change now that, you know, heaven is here"},{"startTime":5792.166,"endTime":5794.333,"body":"and now, and we're going to overthrow our"},{"startTime":5794.333,"endTime":5796.333,"body":"oppressors and start over that anyway."},{"startTime":5796.708,"endTime":5797.666,"body":"So that's my approach."},{"startTime":5797.708,"endTime":5799.375,"body":"And I think you share some of that right"},{"startTime":5799.375,"endTime":5802.166,"body":"mythological truths about religion."},{"startTime":5802.166,"endTime":5805.125,"body":"Yeah, I call it metaphorical truth."},{"startTime":5805.416,"endTime":5809.0,"body":"Metaphorical truth are truths in which"},{"startTime":5809.0,"endTime":5811.125,"body":"those who act as if they are true out"},{"startTime":5811.125,"endTime":5812.958,"body":"compete those who act according to the"},{"startTime":5812.958,"endTime":5813.666,"body":"fact that they're false."},{"startTime":5814.625,"endTime":5815.333,"body":"Let me ask you a question."},{"startTime":5815.666,"endTime":5817.25,"body":"So I when I got to"},{"startTime":5817.25,"endTime":5818.25,"body":"that section of your book,"},{"startTime":5820.333,"endTime":5823.541,"body":"I did wonder, you and I had a had lunch"},{"startTime":5823.541,"endTime":5825.583,"body":"in Memphis at Freedom"},{"startTime":5825.583,"endTime":5826.75,"body":"Fest a couple years ago."},{"startTime":5827.916,"endTime":5828.875,"body":"Was that three years ago?"},{"startTime":5829.083,"endTime":5830.25,"body":"Must have been three years ago."},{"startTime":5830.25,"endTime":5830.458,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5831.833,"endTime":5836.25,"body":"And I understood your position to be"},{"startTime":5836.25,"endTime":5837.041,"body":"different than the one"},{"startTime":5837.041,"endTime":5838.5,"body":"that you take in this book."},{"startTime":5838.5,"endTime":5838.916,"body":"Is that right?"},{"startTime":5839.375,"endTime":5839.916,"body":"I'm trying."},{"startTime":5839.916,"endTime":5841.0,"body":"I'm trying out something new."},{"startTime":5841.875,"endTime":5842.041,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5842.333,"endTime":5842.833,"body":"So that's good."},{"startTime":5843.375,"endTime":5843.583,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5843.583,"endTime":5844.333,"body":"Okay, go ahead."},{"startTime":5844.333,"endTime":5844.583,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":5844.833,"endTime":5847.5,"body":"I'm glad it seems to me that you're"},{"startTime":5847.5,"endTime":5848.5,"body":"moving in my direction."},{"startTime":5849.5,"endTime":5852.958,"body":"And I agree with you about the important."},{"startTime":5853.416,"endTime":5856.0,"body":"Won't be important to religious people."},{"startTime":5856.416,"endTime":5857.833,"body":"But the most important thing from those"},{"startTime":5857.833,"endTime":5860.75,"body":"of us who are not religious, who are"},{"startTime":5860.75,"endTime":5862.791,"body":"trying to understand this phenomenon is"},{"startTime":5862.791,"endTime":5865.583,"body":"the fact that there is value or at least"},{"startTime":5865.583,"endTime":5869.375,"body":"has been value in these stories to those"},{"startTime":5869.375,"endTime":5870.458,"body":"who believed in them."},{"startTime":5871.708,"endTime":5873.916,"body":"And you know, you point to"},{"startTime":5873.916,"endTime":5875.333,"body":"some important kinds of value."},{"startTime":5875.333,"endTime":5876.833,"body":"But I wonder if there are not some things"},{"startTime":5876.833,"endTime":5878.5,"body":"that need to be added to your list."},{"startTime":5880.791,"endTime":5881.416,"body":"Principally,"},{"startTime":5882.666,"endTime":5886.416,"body":"these stories aren't just literature."},{"startTime":5887.166,"endTime":5888.0,"body":"They are actually the"},{"startTime":5888.0,"endTime":5891.958,"body":"solutions to game theory problems."},{"startTime":5894.708,"endTime":5898.583,"body":"And crucially, they only work if you"},{"startTime":5898.583,"endTime":5899.458,"body":"actually believe them."},{"startTime":5900.541,"endTime":5900.75,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":5901.125,"endTime":5903.333,"body":"So that I think is a bitter pill for"},{"startTime":5903.333,"endTime":5906.666,"body":"people of the Richard Dawkins mindset."},{"startTime":5909.25,"endTime":5911.625,"body":"Because so let's just give an example."},{"startTime":5911.625,"endTime":5914.416,"body":"If we take the idea, which you talk about"},{"startTime":5914.416,"endTime":5916.916,"body":"of the afterlife of heaven,"},{"startTime":5918.333,"endTime":5920.875,"body":"and we think of it in Darwinian terms,"},{"startTime":5921.958,"endTime":5925.458,"body":"a person who lives a life that is"},{"startTime":5925.458,"endTime":5929.208,"body":"justifying of their entry into heaven."},{"startTime":5930.375,"endTime":5935.625,"body":"It just so happens will have endeared"},{"startTime":5935.625,"endTime":5940.083,"body":"themselves to their community, will have"},{"startTime":5940.083,"endTime":5947.25,"body":"built up a positive reputation, the kinds"},{"startTime":5947.25,"endTime":5950.125,"body":"of things that put your children and your"},{"startTime":5950.125,"endTime":5954.0,"body":"grandchildren in a much better position"},{"startTime":5954.0,"endTime":5955.791,"body":"to endure hard times"},{"startTime":5955.791,"endTime":5957.291,"body":"and profit in good times."},{"startTime":5957.583,"endTime":5959.5,"body":"You will build a platform"},{"startTime":5959.5,"endTime":5961.625,"body":"from which they can prosper."},{"startTime":5963.625,"endTime":5964.5,"body":"And interestingly,"},{"startTime":5965.708,"endTime":5967.5,"body":"you do live on after"},{"startTime":5967.5,"endTime":5970.0,"body":"your death in their minds."},{"startTime":5971.625,"endTime":5975.0,"body":"So in a sense, the story, I would say, is"},{"startTime":5975.0,"endTime":5977.875,"body":"literally false as far as we know,"},{"startTime":5978.875,"endTime":5983.083,"body":"but not so far from an actual truth,"},{"startTime":5983.083,"endTime":5986.208,"body":"which is you live on after death in a"},{"startTime":5986.625,"endTime":5988.541,"body":"genetic sense, your progeny,"},{"startTime":5989.833,"endTime":5993.541,"body":"and your"},{"startTime":5993.541,"endTime":5995.125,"body":"memories and your impact"},{"startTime":5995.125,"endTime":5996.708,"body":"on the world and so forth."},{"startTime":5996.708,"endTime":5996.916,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":5997.416,"endTime":5999.5,"body":"And so the point is, if you don't believe"},{"startTime":5999.5,"endTime":6000.916,"body":"that heaven's a real place,"},{"startTime":6001.958,"endTime":6004.458,"body":"and more importantly, maybe that hell is"},{"startTime":6004.458,"endTime":6007.125,"body":"the alternative to it, then it may not"},{"startTime":6007.125,"endTime":6008.916,"body":"modify your behavior substantially."},{"startTime":6009.25,"endTime":6012.666,"body":"And you may end up living closer to the"},{"startTime":6012.666,"endTime":6014.75,"body":"naive atheist perspective, which is,"},{"startTime":6014.75,"endTime":6015.791,"body":"well, I don't really care about what"},{"startTime":6015.791,"endTime":6016.791,"body":"happens after I'm gone,"},{"startTime":6016.791,"endTime":6018.416,"body":"because I ain't going to be here."},{"startTime":6018.75,"endTime":6018.958,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":6020.208,"endTime":6024.0,"body":"So a believer has an advantage."},{"startTime":6024.416,"endTime":6027.583,"body":"And one of the things I've given Dawkins"},{"startTime":6027.583,"endTime":6031.041,"body":"and others a hard time about is by"},{"startTime":6031.041,"endTime":6036.416,"body":"deriding these stories as mind viruses,"},{"startTime":6037.0,"endTime":6039.083,"body":"which is very much not the perspective"},{"startTime":6039.125,"endTime":6040.666,"body":"you put forward in your book."},{"startTime":6042.875,"endTime":6048.0,"body":"You rob those who have been more correct"},{"startTime":6048.0,"endTime":6051.166,"body":"than you, right, that these stories have"},{"startTime":6051.166,"endTime":6052.875,"body":"a value and that actually belief in them"},{"startTime":6052.875,"endTime":6060.0,"body":"is a good thing of their proper position."},{"startTime":6060.458,"endTime":6063.166,"body":"You rob them of the recognition that in"},{"startTime":6063.166,"endTime":6064.958,"body":"fact they were correct in a sense."},{"startTime":6068.0,"endTime":6069.958,"body":"So anyway, my basic point there, I didn't"},{"startTime":6069.958,"endTime":6072.5,"body":"mean to divert us, is that the solution"},{"startTime":6072.5,"endTime":6074.583,"body":"to the game theory problem is an"},{"startTime":6074.583,"endTime":6077.375,"body":"important way, you know, I don't believe"},{"startTime":6077.375,"endTime":6079.583,"body":"that the brothers Karamazov will do that."},{"startTime":6080.416,"endTime":6081.916,"body":"It may tell you many things about the way"},{"startTime":6081.916,"endTime":6085.166,"body":"people are, but it doesn't solve a"},{"startTime":6085.166,"endTime":6086.916,"body":"difficult to solve problem like a"},{"startTime":6086.916,"endTime":6088.166,"body":"collective action issue."},{"startTime":6089.083,"endTime":6089.291,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":6090.041,"endTime":6091.916,"body":"That may explain the response I've been"},{"startTime":6091.916,"endTime":6094.0,"body":"getting so far from Christians when I"},{"startTime":6094.0,"endTime":6097.333,"body":"float this idea with great respect."},{"startTime":6097.333,"endTime":6098.583,"body":"I really respect the story."},{"startTime":6098.583,"endTime":6100.833,"body":"It carries deep truths and so on, but"},{"startTime":6100.833,"endTime":6103.791,"body":"Jesus was not literally, you know, raised"},{"startTime":6103.791,"endTime":6106.833,"body":"from the dead and their response is what?"},{"startTime":6107.166,"endTime":6109.416,"body":"No, no, no, not mythologically,"},{"startTime":6109.416,"endTime":6111.416,"body":"metaphorically, psychologically true."},{"startTime":6111.416,"endTime":6113.125,"body":"No, it literally happened."},{"startTime":6114.333,"endTime":6117.041,"body":"And Paul himself said, if Christ has not"},{"startTime":6117.041,"endTime":6118.291,"body":"risen, then there's no"},{"startTime":6118.291,"endTime":6119.083,"body":"reason to be a Christian."},{"startTime":6120.083,"endTime":6123.041,"body":"And so they really insist that as"},{"startTime":6123.041,"endTime":6124.875,"body":"respectable and honorable it"},{"startTime":6124.875,"endTime":6126.583,"body":"is to have these deep truths."},{"startTime":6127.125,"endTime":6130.5,"body":"No, it had to literally happen or, and"},{"startTime":6130.5,"endTime":6131.625,"body":"then to this I respond then"},{"startTime":6131.625,"endTime":6133.416,"body":"why don't Jews believe it?"},{"startTime":6133.416,"endTime":6135.25,"body":"You know, because they don't, they just"},{"startTime":6135.25,"endTime":6137.375,"body":"did the old Testament doesn't say that's"},{"startTime":6137.375,"endTime":6138.916,"body":"what the Messiah is going to be like a"},{"startTime":6138.916,"endTime":6140.583,"body":"carpenter from Nazareth"},{"startTime":6140.583,"endTime":6142.041,"body":"who gets himself crucified."},{"startTime":6142.041,"endTime":6142.833,"body":"That's not what the"},{"startTime":6142.833,"endTime":6143.833,"body":"Messiah was supposed to be."},{"startTime":6143.833,"endTime":6145.541,"body":"He's supposed to be our rescuers going to"},{"startTime":6145.541,"endTime":6146.666,"body":"overthrow the Roman empire."},{"startTime":6147.0,"endTime":6148.5,"body":"And, and we're going to start again with"},{"startTime":6148.5,"endTime":6150.125,"body":"this new empire with our great leader."},{"startTime":6150.125,"endTime":6151.791,"body":"That's not what Jesus was like at all."},{"startTime":6151.791,"endTime":6152.708,"body":"So they reject it."},{"startTime":6153.5,"endTime":6156.375,"body":"And so maybe your explanation here goes a"},{"startTime":6156.375,"endTime":6157.583,"body":"long way to saying why"},{"startTime":6157.583,"endTime":6160.5,"body":"they're not buying my idea here."},{"startTime":6160.875,"endTime":6163.0,"body":"Well, look, I mean, I,"},{"startTime":6164.916,"endTime":6169.583,"body":"if you think carefully about the argument"},{"startTime":6169.583,"endTime":6171.208,"body":"that I make in the game theory argument,"},{"startTime":6174.0,"endTime":6179.5,"body":"it raises the question of why,"},{"startTime":6180.541,"endTime":6182.625,"body":"yes, it makes it quite clear why you"},{"startTime":6182.625,"endTime":6187.416,"body":"would resist in no uncertain terms, this"},{"startTime":6187.416,"endTime":6189.416,"body":"interpretation, but that in fact you"},{"startTime":6189.416,"endTime":6191.916,"body":"would deeply believe that what you"},{"startTime":6191.916,"endTime":6194.375,"body":"Michael are saying is wrong and that"},{"startTime":6194.375,"endTime":6196.458,"body":"actually this literally did happen."},{"startTime":6197.125,"endTime":6198.041,"body":"And the question is,"},{"startTime":6199.333,"endTime":6200.25,"body":"um,"},{"startTime":6202.833,"endTime":6204.375,"body":"I'm not inclined to"},{"startTime":6204.375,"endTime":6205.375,"body":"try to persuade anybody"},{"startTime":6206.583,"endTime":6207.5,"body":"of anything."},{"startTime":6207.708,"endTime":6210.833,"body":"I don't misrepresent my own perspective."},{"startTime":6211.125,"endTime":6214.0,"body":"If people ask me, I say, look, I don't"},{"startTime":6214.0,"endTime":6215.541,"body":"rule out the possibility of the"},{"startTime":6215.541,"endTime":6216.583,"body":"supernatural, but I've"},{"startTime":6216.583,"endTime":6217.75,"body":"seen no evidence of it."},{"startTime":6217.75,"endTime":6218.666,"body":"And I don't expect to."},{"startTime":6219.583,"endTime":6222.041,"body":"Um, I think that's very clear, uh, what I"},{"startTime":6222.041,"endTime":6224.958,"body":"believe, but I also, I'm not, uh,"},{"startTime":6225.666,"endTime":6232.416,"body":"inclined to push people towards a"},{"startTime":6232.416,"endTime":6234.5,"body":"modification of beliefs that have"},{"startTime":6234.5,"endTime":6238.583,"body":"apparently been very effective at getting"},{"startTime":6238.583,"endTime":6240.0,"body":"them into the present."},{"startTime":6240.875,"endTime":6244.791,"body":"If I don't have a proper substitute and I"},{"startTime":6244.791,"endTime":6245.583,"body":"don't believe we have"},{"startTime":6245.583,"endTime":6247.5,"body":"anything like a proper substitute."},{"startTime":6248.416,"endTime":6250.458,"body":"Um, in fact, I'm watching civilization"},{"startTime":6250.458,"endTime":6256.208,"body":"wreck itself because of the vacuum left"},{"startTime":6256.208,"endTime":6260.333,"body":"by the metaphorical beliefs that we have"},{"startTime":6260.333,"endTime":6261.458,"body":"so recently abandoned."},{"startTime":6262.375,"endTime":6262.583,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":6263.0,"endTime":6264.125,"body":"The substitution hypothesis."},{"startTime":6264.5,"endTime":6264.708,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":6265.041,"endTime":6266.833,"body":"As religion declines, we substitute"},{"startTime":6266.833,"endTime":6269.75,"body":"Marxism or woke ism or trans or whatever."},{"startTime":6269.958,"endTime":6270.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":6271.208,"endTime":6274.041,"body":"Maybe, um, uh, back to your previous"},{"startTime":6274.041,"endTime":6275.583,"body":"point, though, let's look"},{"startTime":6275.583,"endTime":6277.25,"body":"at some specific examples."},{"startTime":6277.25,"endTime":6279.291,"body":"I have a slew of these new books from"},{"startTime":6279.291,"endTime":6280.875,"body":"formerly atheist or some of the people"},{"startTime":6280.875,"endTime":6283.25,"body":"that said, you know, really, really, this"},{"startTime":6283.25,"endTime":6284.041,"body":"is not such a bad thing."},{"startTime":6284.041,"endTime":6285.625,"body":"In fact, it's a great thing."},{"startTime":6286.0,"endTime":6287.166,"body":"And, you know, Charles Murray was just"},{"startTime":6287.166,"endTime":6289.0,"body":"on, I don't know if you know Charles, but"},{"startTime":6289.0,"endTime":6290.0,"body":"I've known him for a long"},{"startTime":6290.0,"endTime":6292.25,"body":"time, you know, lifelong atheist."},{"startTime":6292.25,"endTime":6293.25,"body":"And now he's found God."},{"startTime":6293.5,"endTime":6293.791,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":6294.0,"endTime":6295.083,"body":"And we know I.N."},{"startTime":6295.083,"endTime":6296.666,"body":"Hersey Ali's got her book coming out this"},{"startTime":6296.666,"endTime":6297.625,"body":"year at some point about"},{"startTime":6297.625,"endTime":6298.666,"body":"her conversion experience."},{"startTime":6298.666,"endTime":6299.5,"body":"I think you know, I.N."},{"startTime":6300.041,"endTime":6303.25,"body":"And, um, you know, her story, you know,"},{"startTime":6303.25,"endTime":6306.208,"body":"it's, it's not that she laid out all the"},{"startTime":6306.208,"endTime":6307.5,"body":"evidence and said, you know, I've been weighing the evidence of foreign against"},{"startTime":6307.5,"endTime":6310.25,"body":"the resurrection and I think the"},{"startTime":6310.25,"endTime":6311.791,"body":"evidence, it wasn't that at all."},{"startTime":6312.083,"endTime":6313.0,"body":"You know, it's very personal."},{"startTime":6313.25,"endTime":6314.75,"body":"She had a lot of personal issues."},{"startTime":6315.333,"endTime":6317.666,"body":"She found Jesus as her savior and it"},{"startTime":6317.666,"endTime":6319.791,"body":"saved her life, literally saved her life."},{"startTime":6320.833,"endTime":6323.833,"body":"And it's like, okay, I'm not gonna, I'm"},{"startTime":6323.833,"endTime":6324.625,"body":"not gonna argue with her."},{"startTime":6324.625,"endTime":6325.708,"body":"I'm not gonna say, well, but you know,"},{"startTime":6325.708,"endTime":6326.5,"body":"it's all bullshit, right?"},{"startTime":6327.666,"endTime":6328.583,"body":"You know, it's like, I don't"},{"startTime":6328.583,"endTime":6329.75,"body":"want to do that to anybody."},{"startTime":6329.958,"endTime":6330.916,"body":"It's like, whatever helps"},{"startTime":6330.916,"endTime":6331.791,"body":"you get through the night."},{"startTime":6331.791,"endTime":6332.5,"body":"I mean, life is hard."},{"startTime":6332.833,"endTime":6333.0,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":6333.208,"endTime":6336.166,"body":"Um, and, you know, maybe, and I'll give"},{"startTime":6336.166,"endTime":6337.666,"body":"her, you know, it's metaphorically true"},{"startTime":6337.666,"endTime":6339.75,"body":"or mythically true, whatever."},{"startTime":6340.0,"endTime":6340.291,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":6340.708,"endTime":6341.5,"body":"If that works"},{"startTime":6341.5,"endTime":6343.291,"body":"pragmatically to make your life better."},{"startTime":6343.541,"endTime":6344.291,"body":"All right, fine."},{"startTime":6344.958,"endTime":6347.208,"body":"Um, you know, my only objection would be"},{"startTime":6347.208,"endTime":6348.708,"body":"trying to convert other people."},{"startTime":6349.416,"endTime":6351.541,"body":"And so far, you know, the books I've had"},{"startTime":6351.541,"endTime":6352.041,"body":"here, they're not"},{"startTime":6352.041,"endTime":6353.083,"body":"trying to convert anybody."},{"startTime":6353.083,"endTime":6354.791,"body":"They're just saying it's, it's, it's not"},{"startTime":6354.791,"endTime":6356.458,"body":"so bad to believe like Charles Murray."},{"startTime":6356.458,"endTime":6358.291,"body":"He's not trying to convince anybody."},{"startTime":6358.291,"endTime":6358.791,"body":"He's just saying, this"},{"startTime":6358.791,"endTime":6359.416,"body":"is what works for me."},{"startTime":6359.416,"endTime":6361.0,"body":"What was the other?"},{"startTime":6361.0,"endTime":6363.625,"body":"Oh, Ross Douthat believe, um, he's"},{"startTime":6363.625,"endTime":6365.0,"body":"Catholic and, but, but he"},{"startTime":6365.0,"endTime":6366.291,"body":"doesn't insist you be Catholic."},{"startTime":6366.291,"endTime":6368.375,"body":"He's a just believe something, you know,"},{"startTime":6368.375,"endTime":6369.875,"body":"one of the big three are just something."},{"startTime":6370.0,"endTime":6370.375,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":6371.0,"endTime":6373.166,"body":"Um, and, but that then merges into this"},{"startTime":6373.166,"endTime":6375.875,"body":"kind of cultural religiosity, like, well,"},{"startTime":6375.875,"endTime":6378.791,"body":"it's better than Islam Islamism, let's"},{"startTime":6378.791,"endTime":6380.75,"body":"say, or it's better than the crazy"},{"startTime":6380.75,"endTime":6384.0,"body":"Marxism woke wokeism, you know, for, for"},{"startTime":6384.0,"endTime":6387.375,"body":"civilizational values, um, that we all"},{"startTime":6387.375,"endTime":6390.0,"body":"agree are good for human flourishing."},{"startTime":6390.583,"endTime":6391.708,"body":"Those certain religions are"},{"startTime":6391.708,"endTime":6392.625,"body":"better for that than others."},{"startTime":6392.916,"endTime":6393.625,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":6393.625,"endTime":6394.916,"body":"I'll, I'll go along with that."},{"startTime":6395.458,"endTime":6396.0,"body":"Well, hold on."},{"startTime":6396.708,"endTime":6399.416,"body":"Um, this was another place where I think,"},{"startTime":6399.416,"endTime":6401.833,"body":"uh, you could add to your model."},{"startTime":6404.0,"endTime":6408.041,"body":"Different religions are just like species"},{"startTime":6408.041,"endTime":6410.0,"body":"adapted to different"},{"startTime":6410.0,"endTime":6412.5,"body":"times and places in history."},{"startTime":6413.666,"endTime":6416.416,"body":"I think we need to be very concerned"},{"startTime":6416.416,"endTime":6420.25,"body":"about what our religious traditions are"},{"startTime":6420.25,"endTime":6422.958,"body":"adapted to, that it's not,"},{"startTime":6423.416,"endTime":6425.041,"body":"one is not as good as another."},{"startTime":6425.875,"endTime":6428.625,"body":"And it isn't that one is less valid than"},{"startTime":6428.625,"endTime":6433.458,"body":"another, but a religion adapted to a time"},{"startTime":6433.458,"endTime":6436.166,"body":"of rampant lineage against lineage"},{"startTime":6436.166,"endTime":6440.458,"body":"violence, for example, is a very poor"},{"startTime":6440.458,"endTime":6442.25,"body":"match for the world we want to live in."},{"startTime":6442.25,"endTime":6443.916,"body":"If you want to live in Game of Thrones,"},{"startTime":6444.833,"endTime":6448.041,"body":"you could embrace such a tradition, but"},{"startTime":6448.041,"endTime":6451.333,"body":"if you want to live in an"},{"startTime":6451.333,"endTime":6454.958,"body":"enlightened, tolerant society,"},{"startTime":6456.125,"endTime":6459.083,"body":"then those are not the"},{"startTime":6459.083,"endTime":6462.166,"body":"traditions to, uh, to base it on."},{"startTime":6462.458,"endTime":6465.458,"body":"Further, there's a question about how the"},{"startTime":6465.458,"endTime":6467.5,"body":"different traditions are to get along"},{"startTime":6467.5,"endTime":6469.833,"body":"with each other, because all of the"},{"startTime":6469.833,"endTime":6472.375,"body":"long-standing traditions go back to a"},{"startTime":6472.375,"endTime":6475.75,"body":"world in which the intermingling was not,"},{"startTime":6475.75,"endTime":6479.083,"body":"uh, nearly at the level that it is now."},{"startTime":6479.375,"endTime":6480.5,"body":"And so, um,"},{"startTime":6481.625,"endTime":6485.041,"body":"I by and large have a very, uh,"},{"startTime":6485.041,"endTime":6485.5,"body":"hospitable"},{"startTime":6485.5,"endTime":6487.458,"body":"relationship with religious folks."},{"startTime":6488.416,"endTime":6491.958,"body":"Um, I think I'm doing something the hard"},{"startTime":6491.958,"endTime":6493.875,"body":"way that is much easier"},{"startTime":6493.875,"endTime":6497.0,"body":"done through religious belief."},{"startTime":6497.0,"endTime":6498.458,"body":"And I think that there's a reason as an"},{"startTime":6498.458,"endTime":6500.5,"body":"evolutionary biologist that I have to,"},{"startTime":6500.5,"endTime":6502.833,"body":"um, to do it the hard"},{"startTime":6502.833,"endTime":6504.541,"body":"way, even if it's worse."},{"startTime":6505.041,"endTime":6506.875,"body":"I think it's important for me"},{"startTime":6506.875,"endTime":6508.625,"body":"to retain rigor in this way."},{"startTime":6508.666,"endTime":6512.958,"body":"But, um, one of the things that I find"},{"startTime":6512.958,"endTime":6516.708,"body":"difficult to convey to religious people,"},{"startTime":6516.916,"endTime":6519.416,"body":"even though I have good relations with,"},{"startTime":6519.416,"endTime":6523.25,"body":"with lots of religious people, is because"},{"startTime":6523.25,"endTime":6526.625,"body":"they are adapted to past environments,"},{"startTime":6527.875,"endTime":6531.75,"body":"they do not have the solutions to many"},{"startTime":6531.75,"endTime":6537.75,"body":"puzzles that are, uh, important in our"},{"startTime":6537.75,"endTime":6539.166,"body":"time, in other words,"},{"startTime":6539.5,"endTime":6540.708,"body":"let's look at kosher laws,"},{"startTime":6541.708,"endTime":6542.375,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":6542.375,"endTime":6544.333,"body":"We have kosher laws that,"},{"startTime":6544.333,"endTime":6546.833,"body":"um, warn us off of pork,"},{"startTime":6547.958,"endTime":6551.583,"body":"presumably because of trichinosis or"},{"startTime":6551.583,"endTime":6554.208,"body":"because of something about the ecology of"},{"startTime":6554.208,"endTime":6555.958,"body":"the animal that, uh,"},{"startTime":6555.958,"endTime":6559.583,"body":"renders, uh, pork not a good deal."},{"startTime":6560.708,"endTime":6561.208,"body":"We don't need to"},{"startTime":6561.208,"endTime":6562.666,"body":"worry about that anymore."},{"startTime":6563.5,"endTime":6565.0,"body":"We do need to worry about glyphosate."},{"startTime":6565.583,"endTime":6568.0,"body":"It's not mentioned in any of these texts."},{"startTime":6568.416,"endTime":6569.166,"body":"What is that?"},{"startTime":6569.583,"endTime":6569.958,"body":"Glyphosate."},{"startTime":6571.125,"endTime":6574.208,"body":"It's the, uh, core ingredient of Roundup."},{"startTime":6575.541,"endTime":6576.291,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"startTime":6576.75,"endTime":6579.375,"body":"Um, so our kosher"},{"startTime":6579.375,"endTime":6580.5,"body":"laws are not up to date."},{"startTime":6581.333,"endTime":6583.208,"body":"We need new kosher laws."},{"startTime":6583.666,"endTime":6585.458,"body":"Our new kosher laws look a lot more like"},{"startTime":6585.458,"endTime":6588.5,"body":"the, you know, brand new food pyramid."},{"startTime":6590.708,"endTime":6592.333,"body":"And you should buy your stuff organic"},{"startTime":6592.333,"endTime":6595.333,"body":"because of the toxic compounds that are"},{"startTime":6595.333,"endTime":6596.916,"body":"sprayed on the stuff that isn't organic."},{"startTime":6597.208,"endTime":6600.0,"body":"And so, but anyway, the point is it is"},{"startTime":6600.0,"endTime":6602.875,"body":"one thing to say that these texts contain"},{"startTime":6603.041,"endTime":6605.625,"body":"a great deal of wisdom and that because"},{"startTime":6605.625,"endTime":6608.25,"body":"the code is not like computer code, where"},{"startTime":6608.25,"endTime":6610.083,"body":"there are comments that say this section"},{"startTime":6610.083,"endTime":6612.5,"body":"accomplishes this goal, we don't know"},{"startTime":6612.5,"endTime":6613.708,"body":"what section does which"},{"startTime":6613.708,"endTime":6615.5,"body":"we don't know how it works."},{"startTime":6616.291,"endTime":6618.791,"body":"And so it's testerton's"},{"startTime":6618.791,"endTime":6619.916,"body":"fence all the way down."},{"startTime":6621.333,"endTime":6626.416,"body":"Um, but all of that wisdom does not tell"},{"startTime":6626.416,"endTime":6628.833,"body":"us that it is sufficient for modern"},{"startTime":6628.833,"endTime":6630.666,"body":"problems that are not covered there."},{"startTime":6631.041,"endTime":6631.25,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":6631.666,"endTime":6633.458,"body":"The enrichment of uranium isn't covered."},{"startTime":6634.25,"endTime":6636.0,"body":"The pesticides are not covered."},{"startTime":6636.375,"endTime":6638.666,"body":"What to think about AI isn't covered."},{"startTime":6639.0,"endTime":6640.458,"body":"None of these things are addressed."},{"startTime":6641.291,"endTime":6644.416,"body":"And that means that the work isn't done."},{"startTime":6645.541,"endTime":6647.041,"body":"Are you familiar with David Sloan"},{"startTime":6647.041,"endTime":6648.25,"body":"Wilson's work on group"},{"startTime":6648.25,"endTime":6649.75,"body":"selection and religion?"},{"startTime":6650.208,"endTime":6650.791,"body":"Yeah, of course."},{"startTime":6650.916,"endTime":6651.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":6651.833,"endTime":6653.791,"body":"So I don't think, I mean, you're an"},{"startTime":6653.791,"endTime":6654.708,"body":"evolutionary biologist."},{"startTime":6654.708,"endTime":6656.458,"body":"What is your thoughts on group selection"},{"startTime":6656.458,"endTime":6657.75,"body":"as a general theory?"},{"startTime":6658.291,"endTime":6659.666,"body":"And does it apply to religion?"},{"startTime":6660.0,"endTime":6660.208,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":6660.791,"endTime":6662.458,"body":"Um, I'm going to do"},{"startTime":6662.458,"endTime":6663.791,"body":"this as carefully as I can."},{"startTime":6665.166,"endTime":6667.916,"body":"Group selection is a logical dead end."},{"startTime":6669.25,"endTime":6670.208,"body":"Lineage selection"},{"startTime":6671.458,"endTime":6674.5,"body":"is the rigorous version of this."},{"startTime":6674.916,"endTime":6676.75,"body":"Ultimately, David and I"},{"startTime":6676.75,"endTime":6678.166,"body":"will have to have that out."},{"startTime":6678.416,"endTime":6679.083,"body":"But"},{"startTime":6680.916,"endTime":6684.166,"body":"group selection allowed the group"},{"startTime":6684.166,"endTime":6689.166,"body":"selectionists to reach a responsible"},{"startTime":6689.166,"endTime":6692.208,"body":"theory of the evolution of culture that"},{"startTime":6692.208,"endTime":6694.125,"body":"properly deals with religion."},{"startTime":6695.291,"endTime":6698.041,"body":"So my point would be David Sloan Wilson"},{"startTime":6698.041,"endTime":6701.375,"body":"is correct about the stuff the"},{"startTime":6701.375,"endTime":6703.375,"body":"other side of group selection."},{"startTime":6703.375,"endTime":6706.25,"body":"He is not correct about the mechanism in"},{"startTime":6706.25,"endTime":6712.125,"body":"question, but, um, the adaptive at the"},{"startTime":6712.125,"endTime":6714.083,"body":"kin selectionists, which is my tribe,"},{"startTime":6714.333,"endTime":6716.208,"body":"does not under it's my"},{"startTime":6716.208,"endTime":6717.5,"body":"tribe and it's Dawkins tribe."},{"startTime":6717.958,"endTime":6720.291,"body":"They do not understand religion because"},{"startTime":6720.291,"endTime":6723.375,"body":"they don't have anything to jump them"},{"startTime":6723.375,"endTime":6726.666,"body":"into the realm of culture at the proper"},{"startTime":6726.666,"endTime":6727.916,"body":"level to understand how"},{"startTime":6727.916,"endTime":6728.75,"body":"these things function."},{"startTime":6729.5,"endTime":6731.25,"body":"So the group selectionists, even though"},{"startTime":6731.25,"endTime":6732.958,"body":"they are wrong about this mechanism, in"},{"startTime":6732.958,"endTime":6736.0,"body":"my opinion, are right about the"},{"startTime":6736.0,"endTime":6736.875,"body":"consequences, the"},{"startTime":6736.875,"endTime":6737.958,"body":"evolutionary consequences."},{"startTime":6738.166,"endTime":6740.458,"body":"The right mechanism is lineage selection,"},{"startTime":6740.458,"endTime":6742.541,"body":"which has yet to, I have yet to present"},{"startTime":6742.541,"endTime":6743.916,"body":"it in a way that it will get a proper"},{"startTime":6743.916,"endTime":6744.916,"body":"hearing and it has yet to"},{"startTime":6744.916,"endTime":6745.791,"body":"get that proper hearing."},{"startTime":6747.208,"endTime":6748.541,"body":"Okay, Bret, there's your next book."},{"startTime":6748.791,"endTime":6749.958,"body":"If you're not going to write about the"},{"startTime":6749.958,"endTime":6751.541,"body":"scientific fraud, you can write about"},{"startTime":6751.541,"endTime":6753.583,"body":"religion and group selection and linear"},{"startTime":6753.583,"endTime":6755.458,"body":"subjects is maybe that's it."},{"startTime":6755.458,"endTime":6756.291,"body":"Is that your next book?"},{"startTime":6757.25,"endTime":6759.708,"body":"Uh, well, I'm, unfortunately, my"},{"startTime":6759.708,"endTime":6761.833,"body":"attention is divided between two, but one"},{"startTime":6761.833,"endTime":6763.166,"body":"of them contains that."},{"startTime":6763.458,"endTime":6763.625,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":6764.041,"endTime":6764.291,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":6764.291,"endTime":6764.5,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":6764.75,"endTime":6765.916,"body":"Well, my point of bringing this up was"},{"startTime":6765.916,"endTime":6768.708,"body":"that, um, you know, maybe there's been a"},{"startTime":6768.708,"endTime":6771.625,"body":"kind of an evolution of Christianity, you"},{"startTime":6771.625,"endTime":6772.583,"body":"know, going through the scientific"},{"startTime":6772.583,"endTime":6773.958,"body":"revolution and the enlightenment and"},{"startTime":6773.958,"endTime":6775.833,"body":"coming out the other end, much more"},{"startTime":6775.833,"endTime":6778.208,"body":"tolerant and enlightened as it were by"},{"startTime":6778.208,"endTime":6780.291,"body":"Western values of freedom and a bodily"},{"startTime":6780.291,"endTime":6782.208,"body":"autonomy and that sort of thing, the kind"},{"startTime":6782.208,"endTime":6783.666,"body":"of things that work well with the"},{"startTime":6783.708,"endTime":6786.041,"body":"constitution and the declaration of"},{"startTime":6786.041,"endTime":6787.0,"body":"independence and all that."},{"startTime":6787.625,"endTime":6789.916,"body":"So, uh, whereas Islam has not gone"},{"startTime":6789.916,"endTime":6790.833,"body":"through an enlightenment."},{"startTime":6790.833,"endTime":6793.416,"body":"And, uh, so that's why we're getting"},{"startTime":6793.416,"endTime":6795.416,"body":"these conversations now of, you know,"},{"startTime":6795.416,"endTime":6796.916,"body":"even Dokken said, I'm a cultural"},{"startTime":6796.916,"endTime":6798.708,"body":"Christian, you know, even"},{"startTime":6798.708,"endTime":6799.708,"body":"though I'm an atheist, right?"},{"startTime":6799.708,"endTime":6801.166,"body":"So that, you know, that kind of theme,"},{"startTime":6801.166,"endTime":6803.666,"body":"maybe that is along these same lines of a"},{"startTime":6803.666,"endTime":6806.208,"body":"pragmatic game, theoretic, uh,"},{"startTime":6806.208,"endTime":6807.833,"body":"explanation for the evolution of"},{"startTime":6807.833,"endTime":6809.291,"body":"religions in a certain direction."},{"startTime":6809.875,"endTime":6810.666,"body":"Well, there's one thing"},{"startTime":6810.666,"endTime":6812.625,"body":"that you have to add to that."},{"startTime":6812.958,"endTime":6817.25,"body":"I believe, um, let's just say"},{"startTime":6817.25,"endTime":6821.541,"body":"Christianity in its modern form is"},{"startTime":6821.541,"endTime":6826.375,"body":"actually a pretty good basis for the West"},{"startTime":6826.375,"endTime":6828.583,"body":"as we understand it, right?"},{"startTime":6831.333,"endTime":6834.875,"body":"Far better than Islam as we find it, but"},{"startTime":6834.875,"endTime":6837.625,"body":"also better than biblical Judaism."},{"startTime":6838.75,"endTime":6839.333,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":6839.333,"endTime":6843.166,"body":"And what I think the distinction between"},{"startTime":6844.166,"endTime":6849.0,"body":"Quran, uh, era Islam and biblical Judaism"},{"startTime":6849.0,"endTime":6855.041,"body":"is the willingness to culturally update."},{"startTime":6856.458,"endTime":6860.416,"body":"So the way culture works, it is adaptive"},{"startTime":6860.416,"endTime":6862.625,"body":"and evolutionary, and it"},{"startTime":6862.625,"endTime":6865.833,"body":"is also quite capable of,"},{"startTime":6868.25,"endTime":6868.791,"body":"hybridizing."},{"startTime":6870.333,"endTime":6873.708,"body":"So what we have modern Jews have embraced"},{"startTime":6873.708,"endTime":6878.666,"body":"many, um, pieces of Christian wisdom, the"},{"startTime":6878.666,"endTime":6883.208,"body":"Christian update to the old Testament has"},{"startTime":6883.208,"endTime":6887.041,"body":"been largely embraced by"},{"startTime":6887.041,"endTime":6890.5,"body":"modern Jews, but not acknowledged."},{"startTime":6891.25,"endTime":6894.0,"body":"So to give one example, modern Jews"},{"startTime":6894.0,"endTime":6895.666,"body":"believe in monogamy."},{"startTime":6897.041,"endTime":6898.625,"body":"That's not an old Testament concept."},{"startTime":6899.125,"endTime":6900.625,"body":"That's a new Testament concept."},{"startTime":6901.0,"endTime":6901.208,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":6901.75,"endTime":6904.125,"body":"So I would argue that"},{"startTime":6904.125,"endTime":6905.458,"body":"this is actually the roadmap."},{"startTime":6905.458,"endTime":6907.541,"body":"If we're to have a world in which we"},{"startTime":6907.541,"endTime":6910.375,"body":"actually do get along with each other, we"},{"startTime":6910.375,"endTime":6913.791,"body":"have to be willing to make our different"},{"startTime":6913.791,"endTime":6916.375,"body":"belief structures compatible."},{"startTime":6916.833,"endTime":6919.958,"body":"And that is not going to be a simple"},{"startTime":6919.958,"endTime":6925.083,"body":"process, but I believe the Western"},{"startTime":6925.083,"endTime":6928.875,"body":"cosmopolitan world in which we don't stop"},{"startTime":6928.875,"endTime":6930.875,"body":"competing with each other, but we stop"},{"startTime":6930.875,"endTime":6932.083,"body":"fighting with each other."},{"startTime":6933.041,"endTime":6935.625,"body":"We compete by trying to outdo each other"},{"startTime":6935.625,"endTime":6938.875,"body":"in terms of creating wealth, but we stop"},{"startTime":6938.875,"endTime":6941.208,"body":"bludgeoning each other over different"},{"startTime":6941.208,"endTime":6942.791,"body":"skin colors, ideologies,"},{"startTime":6943.791,"endTime":6944.5,"body":"nose shapes, whatever it might be."},{"startTime":6944.5,"endTime":6946.458,"body":"That that world,"},{"startTime":6947.458,"endTime":6947.875,"body":"uh,"},{"startTime":6949.166,"endTime":6950.125,"body":"is superior."},{"startTime":6950.375,"endTime":6951.375,"body":"It is safer."},{"startTime":6951.583,"endTime":6952.666,"body":"It is fairer."},{"startTime":6952.666,"endTime":6956.416,"body":"It is more, um, rewarding to live in it."},{"startTime":6957.791,"endTime":6958.541,"body":"Um, it,"},{"startTime":6959.666,"endTime":6962.333,"body":"it does all of the things that are on the"},{"startTime":6962.333,"endTime":6963.583,"body":"best side of what it is to be human."},{"startTime":6963.625,"endTime":6968.541,"body":"And because of that, we should be"},{"startTime":6968.541,"endTime":6974.458,"body":"welcoming the world to embrace the parts"},{"startTime":6974.458,"endTime":6977.041,"body":"of that worldview that"},{"startTime":6977.041,"endTime":6978.791,"body":"make the whole place function."},{"startTime":6979.125,"endTime":6980.791,"body":"And that what we are in fact watching is"},{"startTime":6980.791,"endTime":6983.25,"body":"a battle of civilizations in which we"},{"startTime":6983.25,"endTime":6987.166,"body":"have people who wish to adhere to ancient"},{"startTime":6987.166,"endTime":6988.458,"body":"texts that are based on"},{"startTime":6988.458,"endTime":6989.875,"body":"lineage against lineage violence."},{"startTime":6990.208,"endTime":6990.875,"body":"And you have got other people who want to modernize and get along."},{"startTime":6990.916,"endTime":6994.833,"body":"And unfortunately,"},{"startTime":6996.0,"endTime":6997.583,"body":"those of us who want to get along are"},{"startTime":6997.583,"endTime":6999.208,"body":"going to have to win that battle."},{"startTime":7000.0,"endTime":7000.291,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":7001.375,"endTime":7004.416,"body":"because there's the weaponry is too"},{"startTime":7004.416,"endTime":7006.208,"body":"ferocious and the number of us on this"},{"startTime":7006.208,"endTime":7007.583,"body":"planet is too large and we're too"},{"startTime":7007.583,"endTime":7009.541,"body":"interconnected to fight each other"},{"startTime":7009.541,"endTime":7010.75,"body":"lineage against lineage."},{"startTime":7010.75,"endTime":7011.708,"body":"We will drive ourselves"},{"startTime":7011.708,"endTime":7012.958,"body":"extinct if that's what we do."},{"startTime":7013.5,"endTime":7013.916,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":7013.916,"endTime":7014.875,"body":"Let's see where, where"},{"startTime":7014.875,"endTime":7016.0,"body":"we fall on this issue."},{"startTime":7016.25,"endTime":7018.5,"body":"People like myself and Steven Pinker and Dawkins Harris and so on."},{"startTime":7018.5,"endTime":7019.333,"body":"And I think that's and"},{"startTime":7019.333,"endTime":7020.916,"body":"Dawkins Harris and so on."},{"startTime":7021.166,"endTime":7022.958,"body":"Uh, you know, we, we kind of adhere to"},{"startTime":7022.958,"endTime":7025.75,"body":"secular humanism or as I prefer"},{"startTime":7025.75,"endTime":7027.708,"body":"enlightenment humanism and has a little"},{"startTime":7027.708,"endTime":7028.875,"body":"more gravitas to it."},{"startTime":7028.875,"endTime":7030.458,"body":"And also the secular humanists have"},{"startTime":7030.458,"endTime":7031.541,"body":"become too political."},{"startTime":7031.541,"endTime":7034.0,"body":"They're pretty far left progressives and"},{"startTime":7034.0,"endTime":7036.708,"body":"I'm not neither is Pinker and so on."},{"startTime":7036.708,"endTime":7039.375,"body":"So it's, but we're after something like,"},{"startTime":7040.125,"endTime":7040.75,"body":"what are we going to"},{"startTime":7040.75,"endTime":7042.166,"body":"replace religion with?"},{"startTime":7042.166,"endTime":7042.5,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":7042.5,"endTime":7044.333,"body":"When I got into this business and well,"},{"startTime":7044.333,"endTime":7047.083,"body":"we started Skeptic 92 and I was sort of"},{"startTime":7047.083,"endTime":7049.041,"body":"following Randy and Kurtz and those guys"},{"startTime":7049.041,"endTime":7051.291,"body":"in the late eighties where, where like"},{"startTime":7051.291,"endTime":7052.958,"body":"Paul Kurtz had this, you know, he was the"},{"startTime":7052.958,"endTime":7055.5,"body":"founder of a center for inquiry and, and"},{"startTime":7055.5,"endTime":7056.75,"body":"skeptical inquire and"},{"startTime":7056.75,"endTime":7057.708,"body":"free inquiry magazine."},{"startTime":7057.708,"endTime":7061.166,"body":"So his vision, you know, he once gave me"},{"startTime":7061.166,"endTime":7062.625,"body":"his, you know, I have a dream, you know,"},{"startTime":7062.916,"endTime":7064.875,"body":"so, you know, one day, you know, in every"},{"startTime":7064.875,"endTime":7067.0,"body":"city we will have a secular church, but"},{"startTime":7067.0,"endTime":7069.333,"body":"people will go to, you know, and there'll"},{"startTime":7069.333,"endTime":7070.291,"body":"be no more religion."},{"startTime":7070.291,"endTime":7071.083,"body":"We'll just have this"},{"startTime":7071.083,"endTime":7072.625,"body":"whole worldview it's replaced."},{"startTime":7072.666,"endTime":7074.458,"body":"And so they have, you know, weddings and"},{"startTime":7074.458,"endTime":7076.458,"body":"funerals and coming of age"},{"startTime":7076.458,"endTime":7077.791,"body":"and it's all secular, right?"},{"startTime":7077.791,"endTime":7078.75,"body":"We're going to replace it all."},{"startTime":7079.291,"endTime":7080.416,"body":"That hasn't really happened."},{"startTime":7081.708,"endTime":7084.5,"body":"At least as I envisioned it would happen"},{"startTime":7084.5,"endTime":7085.5,"body":"back in the early nineties."},{"startTime":7085.5,"endTime":7086.541,"body":"The closest thing we have is Starbucks."},{"startTime":7087.375,"endTime":7088.166,"body":"Yeah, Starbucks."},{"startTime":7088.333,"endTime":7088.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":7088.875,"endTime":7090.916,"body":"And I've, I've gone to these, you know,"},{"startTime":7090.916,"endTime":7093.458,"body":"ethical society meetings and, and the,"},{"startTime":7093.458,"endTime":7096.083,"body":"you know, the atheist Sunday gatherings"},{"startTime":7096.083,"endTime":7099.166,"body":"and, you know, they sing hymns to Newton"},{"startTime":7099.166,"endTime":7100.833,"body":"and people get up to"},{"startTime":7100.833,"endTime":7102.333,"body":"give their testimonials."},{"startTime":7102.5,"endTime":7104.0,"body":"This is how I lost my religion."},{"startTime":7104.333,"endTime":7105.75,"body":"I mean, it's kind of funny, but I'm just"},{"startTime":7105.75,"endTime":7107.333,"body":"sitting there thinking, God, I feel like"},{"startTime":7107.333,"endTime":7108.791,"body":"I'm back in church and I, I"},{"startTime":7108.791,"endTime":7110.083,"body":"was never vibing it really."},{"startTime":7110.958,"endTime":7112.333,"body":"That wasn't my thing to sit in church,"},{"startTime":7112.875,"endTime":7114.541,"body":"but maybe a lot of people, well, this is"},{"startTime":7114.541,"endTime":7115.791,"body":"their idea that people"},{"startTime":7115.791,"endTime":7117.541,"body":"need ceremony like that."},{"startTime":7117.541,"endTime":7118.208,"body":"So we're going to create"},{"startTime":7118.208,"endTime":7119.916,"body":"a fake one essentially."},{"startTime":7120.625,"endTime":7122.291,"body":"And I don't, my, my"},{"startTime":7122.291,"endTime":7124.166,"body":"sense is, what do you think?"},{"startTime":7124.166,"endTime":7125.916,"body":"You know, this is not really happening."},{"startTime":7126.291,"endTime":7127.083,"body":"No, it's going to work"},{"startTime":7127.083,"endTime":7128.5,"body":"about as well as Esperanto."},{"startTime":7129.25,"endTime":7129.625,"body":"Esperanto."},{"startTime":7129.833,"endTime":7130.0,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":7130.166,"endTime":7131.583,"body":"That's a good example."},{"startTime":7131.833,"endTime":7132.833,"body":"And for the same reason."},{"startTime":7134.25,"endTime":7139.541,"body":"But I do think, you know, Heather and I"},{"startTime":7139.541,"endTime":7140.541,"body":"talk about this with"},{"startTime":7140.541,"endTime":7143.583,"body":"respect to male, female dynamics."},{"startTime":7145.458,"endTime":7147.0,"body":"Male, female dynamics"},{"startTime":7147.0,"endTime":7151.333,"body":"need a renegotiation."},{"startTime":7152.708,"endTime":7153.625,"body":"We can't go back."},{"startTime":7154.0,"endTime":7155.833,"body":"Even the tread people aren't really going"},{"startTime":7155.833,"endTime":7158.25,"body":"back as far as they think they are."},{"startTime":7159.416,"endTime":7161.458,"body":"And that's not going to work."},{"startTime":7162.0,"endTime":7163.833,"body":"The liberation of women has actually been"},{"startTime":7163.833,"endTime":7169.958,"body":"a tremendous victory for liberalism."},{"startTime":7170.541,"endTime":7173.291,"body":"It's a wonderful thing, but it has not."},{"startTime":7174.625,"endTime":7176.458,"body":"Although you should be free to"},{"startTime":7176.458,"endTime":7177.833,"body":"be a tread woman if you want."},{"startTime":7178.375,"endTime":7179.583,"body":"You should be free to be anything"},{"startTime":7179.583,"endTime":7181.208,"body":"you want to be."},{"startTime":7181.666,"endTime":7183.0,"body":"And then the rules"},{"startTime":7183.0,"endTime":7184.541,"body":"should be whatever they are."},{"startTime":7185.0,"endTime":7187.875,"body":"Not the rules that you"},{"startTime":7187.875,"endTime":7188.875,"body":"would like them to be."},{"startTime":7189.041,"endTime":7191.958,"body":"But the point I usually make is it's"},{"startTime":7191.958,"endTime":7196.333,"body":"wonderful that women are now throughout"},{"startTime":7196.333,"endTime":7199.833,"body":"the sciences and equally represented in"},{"startTime":7199.833,"endTime":7201.708,"body":"most of them, if not ahead."},{"startTime":7202.125,"endTime":7202.958,"body":"That's wonderful."},{"startTime":7203.416,"endTime":7207.041,"body":"The problem, however, is that instead of"},{"startTime":7207.041,"endTime":7209.5,"body":"realizing that the rules of science were"},{"startTime":7209.5,"endTime":7214.75,"body":"inherently more masculine because science"},{"startTime":7214.75,"endTime":7216.958,"body":"is a competitive endeavor in which you"},{"startTime":7216.958,"endTime":7218.458,"body":"hold each other's feet to the fire."},{"startTime":7219.833,"endTime":7221.916,"body":"So what should have happened is women"},{"startTime":7221.916,"endTime":7223.125,"body":"should have been brought in on the"},{"startTime":7223.125,"endTime":7225.458,"body":"culture of science, irrespective of the"},{"startTime":7225.458,"endTime":7227.0,"body":"fact that it was masculine in nature,"},{"startTime":7227.0,"endTime":7228.666,"body":"because those are the right rules if you"},{"startTime":7228.666,"endTime":7229.791,"body":"want science to work."},{"startTime":7230.5,"endTime":7233.291,"body":"Instead, we've had a kind of an overthrow"},{"startTime":7233.291,"endTime":7234.916,"body":"of those rules because they were"},{"startTime":7234.916,"endTime":7236.625,"body":"masculine and it results in"},{"startTime":7236.625,"endTime":7237.833,"body":"the science that doesn't work."},{"startTime":7238.583,"endTime":7241.458,"body":"So with that model in mind,"},{"startTime":7242.916,"endTime":7244.916,"body":"the sexes need a renegotiation."},{"startTime":7246.166,"endTime":7247.291,"body":"We can't go back."},{"startTime":7247.291,"endTime":7248.875,"body":"There's nowhere to go back to that will"},{"startTime":7248.875,"endTime":7250.083,"body":"work in the modern world."},{"startTime":7250.625,"endTime":7252.666,"body":"So we need to figure out what rules"},{"startTime":7252.666,"endTime":7255.375,"body":"actually allow us to get along and to"},{"startTime":7255.375,"endTime":7256.333,"body":"make each other stronger."},{"startTime":7257.291,"endTime":7259.25,"body":"And we can broaden that to"},{"startTime":7259.25,"endTime":7260.625,"body":"the rest of civilization too."},{"startTime":7261.083,"endTime":7262.541,"body":"We're not going to have secular churches."},{"startTime":7262.916,"endTime":7265.208,"body":"It's a preposterous idea, but we do need"},{"startTime":7265.208,"endTime":7267.166,"body":"to have something that does that job,"},{"startTime":7268.0,"endTime":7269.375,"body":"whether that involves..."},{"startTime":7270.291,"endTime":7274.083,"body":"I mean, one of the things that I truly"},{"startTime":7274.083,"endTime":7278.25,"body":"appreciate about Judaism is that it is"},{"startTime":7278.25,"endTime":7282.708,"body":"highly tolerant of you making your own"},{"startTime":7282.708,"endTime":7285.083,"body":"peace with the religious realm."},{"startTime":7285.75,"endTime":7289.375,"body":"Now, not every version of Judaism is this"},{"startTime":7289.375,"endTime":7290.208,"body":"way, but in general,"},{"startTime":7291.208,"endTime":7293.333,"body":"say you're a Jew, doesn't mean that you"},{"startTime":7293.333,"endTime":7295.333,"body":"do believe in the supernatural or don't"},{"startTime":7295.333,"endTime":7296.291,"body":"believe in the supernatural."},{"startTime":7296.791,"endTime":7299.625,"body":"You're free to figure out your own"},{"startTime":7299.625,"endTime":7301.166,"body":"relationship to the universe"},{"startTime":7301.166,"endTime":7303.083,"body":"and not be nitpicked over it."},{"startTime":7303.083,"endTime":7304.875,"body":"I think that's a very positive thing."},{"startTime":7305.875,"endTime":7307.541,"body":"And so at some level, we're going to have"},{"startTime":7307.541,"endTime":7310.416,"body":"to build traditions that can evolve and"},{"startTime":7310.416,"endTime":7313.0,"body":"improve and serve us."},{"startTime":7314.208,"endTime":7316.5,"body":"And maybe those are religious traditions"},{"startTime":7316.5,"endTime":7319.208,"body":"and we have to be flexible about what it"},{"startTime":7319.208,"endTime":7321.083,"body":"means to believe in this or that."},{"startTime":7322.625,"endTime":7324.75,"body":"But we do need something because the free"},{"startTime":7324.75,"endTime":7327.375,"body":"for all that has emerged in the absence"},{"startTime":7327.375,"endTime":7331.125,"body":"of people being religious is not better."},{"startTime":7332.583,"endTime":7335.166,"body":"Yeah, I've had theists that I debate tell"},{"startTime":7335.166,"endTime":7337.208,"body":"me, \"Yeah, I know you're an atheist, but"},{"startTime":7337.208,"endTime":7338.5,"body":"at least you know what a woman is.\""},{"startTime":7339.291,"endTime":7341.625,"body":"It's like, \"Yeah, okay."},{"startTime":7342.25,"endTime":7343.541,"body":"We have common ground there.\""},{"startTime":7343.75,"endTime":7345.083,"body":"You're apparently ahead of most"},{"startTime":7345.083,"endTime":7346.458,"body":"evolutionary biologists."},{"startTime":7347.291,"endTime":7347.583,"body":"Apparently so."},{"startTime":7347.958,"endTime":7348.666,"body":"By the way, I just thought of another"},{"startTime":7348.666,"endTime":7350.708,"body":"example of the system of science"},{"startTime":7350.708,"endTime":7351.75,"body":"reforming from within."},{"startTime":7352.541,"endTime":7354.75,"body":"Thinking of Naomi Oreskes' book, Why"},{"startTime":7354.75,"endTime":7357.208,"body":"Science, where she has whole chapters"},{"startTime":7357.208,"endTime":7360.208,"body":"devoted to the crazy science about women"},{"startTime":7360.208,"endTime":7365.0,"body":"in the early 1900s,"},{"startTime":7365.0,"endTime":7367.25,"body":"early 1900s at Harvard."},{"startTime":7367.75,"endTime":7370.458,"body":"One of her case studies was this, I think"},{"startTime":7370.458,"endTime":7372.833,"body":"it was a biologist who published papers"},{"startTime":7372.833,"endTime":7374.708,"body":"on why women should not go to college."},{"startTime":7375.0,"endTime":7376.5,"body":"And the reason is, is because during"},{"startTime":7376.5,"endTime":7377.375,"body":"their menstruation,"},{"startTime":7377.75,"endTime":7379.25,"body":"they have the blood flow."},{"startTime":7379.25,"endTime":7381.25,"body":"There's not enough blood in their brains"},{"startTime":7381.25,"endTime":7384.583,"body":"for them to process higher mathematics"},{"startTime":7384.583,"endTime":7386.125,"body":"and philosophical ideas."},{"startTime":7386.375,"endTime":7388.916,"body":"And this was like peer-reviewed journal"},{"startTime":7388.916,"endTime":7391.375,"body":"articles, hard science, this"},{"startTime":7391.375,"endTime":7392.541,"body":"is it, these are the facts."},{"startTime":7393.166,"endTime":7393.75,"body":"And the moment you..."},{"startTime":7394.541,"endTime":7397.125,"body":"So my point is, her solution is, you"},{"startTime":7397.125,"endTime":7398.083,"body":"bring women into the"},{"startTime":7398.083,"endTime":7399.75,"body":"department and that changes everything."},{"startTime":7400.041,"endTime":7401.833,"body":"So that's reforming it from within."},{"startTime":7401.875,"endTime":7403.75,"body":"We're going to have a diversity of"},{"startTime":7403.75,"endTime":7405.333,"body":"viewpoint diversity, in this"},{"startTime":7405.333,"endTime":7407.0,"body":"case, gender diversity, I guess."},{"startTime":7407.333,"endTime":7407.916,"body":"But viewpoint"},{"startTime":7407.916,"endTime":7409.833,"body":"diversity, that's a solution."},{"startTime":7411.208,"endTime":7414.375,"body":"Well, let's just say that's obviously a"},{"startTime":7414.375,"endTime":7417.375,"body":"preposterous critique of why"},{"startTime":7417.375,"endTime":7418.791,"body":"women should or shouldn't be"},{"startTime":7420.333,"endTime":7421.375,"body":"in science."},{"startTime":7423.0,"endTime":7425.291,"body":"In my field, I trained"},{"startTime":7425.291,"endTime":7426.291,"body":"as a field biologist."},{"startTime":7427.125,"endTime":7430.25,"body":"And at the point I got to field biology,"},{"startTime":7430.25,"endTime":7431.541,"body":"of course, women were"},{"startTime":7431.541,"endTime":7432.416,"body":"equally represented."},{"startTime":7432.75,"endTime":7435.75,"body":"But a couple of generations back, there"},{"startTime":7435.75,"endTime":7439.041,"body":"was literally the idea that women"},{"startTime":7439.041,"endTime":7440.833,"body":"couldn't do field biology"},{"startTime":7440.833,"endTime":7441.875,"body":"because where would they pee?"},{"startTime":7443.125,"endTime":7443.333,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":7444.0,"endTime":7445.625,"body":"I mean, it's as bad as"},{"startTime":7445.625,"endTime":7447.208,"body":"the example you deliver."},{"startTime":7447.5,"endTime":7448.666,"body":"But I would point out,"},{"startTime":7450.0,"endTime":7451.083,"body":"I'm sorry that I never"},{"startTime":7451.083,"endTime":7453.125,"body":"got to talk to Jane Goodall."},{"startTime":7453.125,"endTime":7453.916,"body":"She's one of the people I"},{"startTime":7453.916,"endTime":7454.875,"body":"really wanted to talk to."},{"startTime":7455.458,"endTime":7460.333,"body":"The example of Jane"},{"startTime":7460.333,"endTime":7464.0,"body":"Goodall is a powerful testament."},{"startTime":7464.416,"endTime":7465.958,"body":"I am not in general a"},{"startTime":7467.791,"endTime":7469.625,"body":"adherent to the idea that"},{"startTime":7469.625,"endTime":7471.791,"body":"diversity is our strength."},{"startTime":7472.041,"endTime":7474.458,"body":"I do think there are kinds of diversity"},{"startTime":7474.458,"endTime":7475.833,"body":"that matter a great deal."},{"startTime":7476.208,"endTime":7481.375,"body":"In general, meritocracy and perspective"},{"startTime":7481.375,"endTime":7482.708,"body":"diversity are a good"},{"startTime":7482.708,"endTime":7483.625,"body":"match for each other."},{"startTime":7484.666,"endTime":7490.166,"body":"But for reasons that may be obvious,"},{"startTime":7492.041,"endTime":7494.125,"body":"in a physics lab, if you do the science"},{"startTime":7494.125,"endTime":7497.208,"body":"correctly, it doesn't much matter whether"},{"startTime":7497.208,"endTime":7498.083,"body":"you're male or female."},{"startTime":7499.208,"endTime":7500.041,"body":"The work may appeal"},{"startTime":7500.041,"endTime":7501.375,"body":"more to males, more not."},{"startTime":7501.916,"endTime":7505.083,"body":"But what you're going to find out is not"},{"startTime":7505.083,"endTime":7506.416,"body":"highly sensitive to who you are."},{"startTime":7507.375,"endTime":7510.458,"body":"In biology, especially if you're studying"},{"startTime":7510.458,"endTime":7513.166,"body":"animal behavior, I do think there was"},{"startTime":7513.166,"endTime":7517.666,"body":"kind of an epidemic of male myopia and"},{"startTime":7517.666,"endTime":7521.791,"body":"that Jane Goodall is the best example"},{"startTime":7521.791,"endTime":7527.458,"body":"where a woman and in fact, leaky, Heather"},{"startTime":7527.458,"endTime":7529.416,"body":"and I have been trying to figure out to"},{"startTime":7529.416,"endTime":7530.958,"body":"what extent this was intentional."},{"startTime":7530.958,"endTime":7532.875,"body":"But Jane Goodall was not highly trained."},{"startTime":7533.833,"endTime":7536.5,"body":"And it appears to have potentially been a"},{"startTime":7536.5,"endTime":7538.666,"body":"choice on leaky's part."},{"startTime":7539.083,"endTime":7541.041,"body":"They were with Diane Fosse and"},{"startTime":7541.041,"endTime":7543.125,"body":"then there was three of them."},{"startTime":7543.125,"endTime":7544.666,"body":"There was the orangutan."},{"startTime":7544.875,"endTime":7546.208,"body":"Galdicus is the orangutan."},{"startTime":7547.875,"endTime":7551.875,"body":"So anyway, what Jane Goodall did was she"},{"startTime":7553.708,"endTime":7556.083,"body":"basically made the breakthrough that"},{"startTime":7556.083,"endTime":7558.958,"body":"allowed us to understand the great apes"},{"startTime":7558.958,"endTime":7560.75,"body":"in a way that males had failed to."},{"startTime":7561.333,"endTime":7563.291,"body":"George Schaller had tried and had failed"},{"startTime":7563.291,"endTime":7564.541,"body":"the great lion biologist."},{"startTime":7566.125,"endTime":7566.708,"body":"But Goodall"},{"startTime":7567.791,"endTime":7569.25,"body":"actually broke the male"},{"startTime":7569.25,"endTime":7572.375,"body":"rules in order to make progress."},{"startTime":7573.0,"endTime":7577.416,"body":"And the key thing that she did was men"},{"startTime":7577.416,"endTime":7579.75,"body":"had decided it's very important to be"},{"startTime":7579.75,"endTime":7581.208,"body":"objective about these creatures."},{"startTime":7581.791,"endTime":7583.5,"body":"You shouldn't give them names because"},{"startTime":7583.5,"endTime":7584.333,"body":"it'll blah, blah, blah,"},{"startTime":7584.333,"endTime":7585.75,"body":"blah, blah, which it's true."},{"startTime":7585.958,"endTime":7587.5,"body":"You can easily start"},{"startTime":7587.5,"endTime":7589.0,"body":"anthropomorphizing animals."},{"startTime":7589.541,"endTime":7590.25,"body":"But when you're talking"},{"startTime":7590.25,"endTime":7594.541,"body":"about chimps, your best tool is"},{"startTime":7595.791,"endTime":7599.583,"body":"to understand what they must be based on"},{"startTime":7599.583,"endTime":7601.25,"body":"what you know from yourself because"},{"startTime":7601.25,"endTime":7602.375,"body":"they're not so distant."},{"startTime":7602.583,"endTime":7604.666,"body":"So she did name them and she watched them"},{"startTime":7604.666,"endTime":7607.083,"body":"and thought about them as individuals and"},{"startTime":7607.083,"endTime":7608.25,"body":"imagined that they had"},{"startTime":7608.25,"endTime":7610.708,"body":"these emotional drives as we do."},{"startTime":7610.708,"endTime":7612.791,"body":"And it allowed her to see what was really"},{"startTime":7612.791,"endTime":7614.875,"body":"going on in a way that"},{"startTime":7614.875,"endTime":7616.291,"body":"men had not figured out."},{"startTime":7616.875,"endTime":7621.125,"body":"So anyway, it's a counterpoint."},{"startTime":7621.125,"endTime":7622.25,"body":"In general, my feeling"},{"startTime":7622.25,"endTime":7625.291,"body":"is meritocracy overall."},{"startTime":7626.375,"endTime":7628.416,"body":"And if you want to do the job,"},{"startTime":7629.666,"endTime":7630.833,"body":"figure out how to be"},{"startTime":7630.833,"endTime":7632.25,"body":"good at it and compete."},{"startTime":7633.291,"endTime":7635.5,"body":"By the way, I met Jane at a party a few"},{"startTime":7635.5,"endTime":7636.958,"body":"years ago in Calabasas."},{"startTime":7637.333,"endTime":7638.0,"body":"There was maybe a dozen"},{"startTime":7638.125,"endTime":7639.875,"body":"people there and she drank whiskey."},{"startTime":7640.791,"endTime":7642.541,"body":"Somebody gave her a gift of a super"},{"startTime":7642.541,"endTime":7643.541,"body":"expensive whiskey, so"},{"startTime":7643.541,"endTime":7644.291,"body":"we all drank whiskey."},{"startTime":7644.708,"endTime":7646.416,"body":"And she had the little stuffed animal,"},{"startTime":7646.791,"endTime":7649.166,"body":"the little stuffed chimpanzee."},{"startTime":7649.375,"endTime":7650.166,"body":"And it was very cute."},{"startTime":7650.583,"endTime":7651.458,"body":"What a sweetheart."},{"startTime":7651.458,"endTime":7652.458,"body":"She was something special."},{"startTime":7652.666,"endTime":7654.291,"body":"I presume you saw the Netflix special"},{"startTime":7654.291,"endTime":7655.708,"body":"they released after her death?"},{"startTime":7655.708,"endTime":7657.458,"body":"No, I've heard about it."},{"startTime":7657.458,"endTime":7658.625,"body":"Oh my God, it's very moving."},{"startTime":7658.875,"endTime":7659.958,"body":"Oh, it's just really,"},{"startTime":7659.958,"endTime":7660.5,"body":"it's something else."},{"startTime":7660.791,"endTime":7664.125,"body":"But at the end, she says, \"I have a"},{"startTime":7664.125,"endTime":7665.791,"body":"reason to believe there is an afterlife."},{"startTime":7666.0,"endTime":7667.416,"body":"I'm not going to tell you what it is, but"},{"startTime":7667.416,"endTime":7669.0,"body":"that's where I'm going.\""},{"startTime":7669.291,"endTime":7671.25,"body":"Whatever she said, it was very kind of"},{"startTime":7671.25,"endTime":7672.5,"body":"like, \"Oh, okay, interesting.\""},{"startTime":7673.583,"endTime":7674.333,"body":"Hell yeah."},{"startTime":7674.333,"endTime":7675.041,"body":"Well, I hope she's"},{"startTime":7675.041,"endTime":7676.708,"body":"there and I hope it's great."},{"startTime":7677.416,"endTime":7680.458,"body":"And I hope that all her favorite chimps"},{"startTime":7680.458,"endTime":7682.166,"body":"who have passed on are there with her."},{"startTime":7683.25,"endTime":7686.333,"body":"By the way, on the trans issue of men and"},{"startTime":7686.333,"endTime":7688.958,"body":"women sports and peen."},{"startTime":7689.458,"endTime":7691.416,"body":"Okay, so as you recall, I used to be a"},{"startTime":7691.416,"endTime":7692.0,"body":"bike racer in the"},{"startTime":7692.0,"endTime":7693.416,"body":"1980s, Race Across America."},{"startTime":7693.916,"endTime":7694.708,"body":"And then in the 90s, I"},{"startTime":7694.708,"endTime":7695.5,"body":"was the race director."},{"startTime":7696.375,"endTime":7698.416,"body":"And so we had women's"},{"startTime":7698.416,"endTime":7700.0,"body":"division and men's division."},{"startTime":7700.375,"endTime":7701.5,"body":"And then we had ages"},{"startTime":7701.5,"endTime":7704.208,"body":"and relay teams and so on."},{"startTime":7704.208,"endTime":7709.041,"body":"But in 1995 and six, there were two women"},{"startTime":7709.041,"endTime":7710.625,"body":"that were better than almost all of the"},{"startTime":7710.625,"endTime":7712.625,"body":"men, Shana Hogan and Muffy Ritz."},{"startTime":7713.625,"endTime":7716.375,"body":"And the one year, all the way into"},{"startTime":7716.375,"endTime":7717.666,"body":"Colorado, Shana was"},{"startTime":7717.666,"endTime":7719.125,"body":"leading the entire field."},{"startTime":7719.125,"endTime":7720.75,"body":"She was ahead of like 25 men."},{"startTime":7720.75,"endTime":7722.875,"body":"And some of these guys are really good."},{"startTime":7724.0,"endTime":7725.291,"body":"And so then the issue came"},{"startTime":7725.291,"endTime":7727.791,"body":"up about peen on the bike."},{"startTime":7727.791,"endTime":7728.875,"body":"So you have to kind of"},{"startTime":7728.875,"endTime":7729.791,"body":"picture how this goes."},{"startTime":7730.333,"endTime":7730.583,"body":"You know, you're"},{"startTime":7730.583,"endTime":7731.625,"body":"wearing these Lycra shorts."},{"startTime":7732.458,"endTime":7734.416,"body":"And for a guy, if you have like a long"},{"startTime":7734.416,"endTime":7736.5,"body":"slow downhill, you just kind of turn and"},{"startTime":7736.5,"endTime":7738.708,"body":"you just sort of pull it down and take"},{"startTime":7738.708,"endTime":7739.958,"body":"care of your business."},{"startTime":7739.958,"endTime":7741.25,"body":"It sort of splashes on the road,"},{"startTime":7741.25,"endTime":7741.916,"body":"whatever, no problem."},{"startTime":7742.291,"endTime":7743.25,"body":"But women can't do that."},{"startTime":7743.916,"endTime":7745.958,"body":"So poor Shana has to get off the bike, go"},{"startTime":7745.958,"endTime":7747.666,"body":"into the motorhome or into the bushes or"},{"startTime":7747.666,"endTime":7749.666,"body":"whatever and do her thing."},{"startTime":7749.666,"endTime":7751.333,"body":"And she's losing like three, four minutes"},{"startTime":7751.333,"endTime":7752.625,"body":"every two or three hours"},{"startTime":7752.625,"endTime":7753.75,"body":"because you're drinking a lot."},{"startTime":7753.916,"endTime":7755.833,"body":"So at some point she said, \"You know,"},{"startTime":7755.833,"endTime":7756.625,"body":"it's really not fair.\""},{"startTime":7758.333,"endTime":7760.041,"body":"And I should get like a"},{"startTime":7760.041,"endTime":7761.208,"body":"time bonus or something."},{"startTime":7761.208,"endTime":7763.25,"body":"And I said, \"Shana, you're in the women's"},{"startTime":7763.25,"endTime":7764.541,"body":"division and you have your"},{"startTime":7764.541,"endTime":7765.791,"body":"own prize money and so on."},{"startTime":7765.791,"endTime":7766.833,"body":"The men have, it's all equal."},{"startTime":7767.458,"endTime":7769.208,"body":"Do you want to just race against the men?"},{"startTime":7769.5,"endTime":7771.541,"body":"There's no gender"},{"startTime":7771.541,"endTime":7773.25,"body":"divisions, just one division.\""},{"startTime":7773.541,"endTime":7774.833,"body":"She goes, \"Um, no.\""},{"startTime":7776.583,"endTime":7778.25,"body":"And it turned out, even though she led"},{"startTime":7778.25,"endTime":7780.458,"body":"the first thousand miles, you know, she"},{"startTime":7780.458,"endTime":7784.125,"body":"lost by the guy, the top two or three"},{"startTime":7784.125,"endTime":7785.375,"body":"guys beat her by like 24"},{"startTime":7785.375,"endTime":7787.625,"body":"hours by the end of 3000 miles."},{"startTime":7788.0,"endTime":7789.416,"body":"There's just a massive"},{"startTime":7789.416,"endTime":7790.958,"body":"difference between men and women."},{"startTime":7791.625,"endTime":7794.333,"body":"And I don't know if you saw the, also the"},{"startTime":7794.333,"endTime":7797.333,"body":"special on tennis where the women's"},{"startTime":7797.333,"endTime":7799.5,"body":"number one tennis player, Arina"},{"startTime":7799.5,"endTime":7801.75,"body":"Sabalinka, who is just massive."},{"startTime":7801.958,"endTime":7802.791,"body":"She is so good."},{"startTime":7803.5,"endTime":7805.416,"body":"She just hits so hard and so on."},{"startTime":7805.416,"endTime":7810.375,"body":"She did a match against Nick Gariogos, I"},{"startTime":7810.375,"endTime":7814.041,"body":"forget his last name, rated 671st in the"},{"startTime":7814.041,"endTime":7815.208,"body":"world, hasn't played in two"},{"startTime":7815.208,"endTime":7816.75,"body":"years because of an injury."},{"startTime":7817.708,"endTime":7820.458,"body":"And he just totally dominated."},{"startTime":7820.458,"endTime":7821.625,"body":"I mean, it could have been six love, six"},{"startTime":7821.625,"endTime":7823.083,"body":"love, you know, he just started goofing"},{"startTime":7823.083,"endTime":7825.166,"body":"around and she ended up being six, three,"},{"startTime":7825.166,"endTime":7826.291,"body":"six, four, something like that."},{"startTime":7826.5,"endTime":7828.083,"body":"But it was just, and"},{"startTime":7828.083,"endTime":7829.458,"body":"her court was shorter,"},{"startTime":7830.541,"endTime":7830.875,"body":"narrower."},{"startTime":7831.083,"endTime":7833.5,"body":"So he had a narrower field to hit on and"},{"startTime":7833.5,"endTime":7835.0,"body":"they made it as much as"},{"startTime":7835.0,"endTime":7836.125,"body":"they could to her advantage."},{"startTime":7836.125,"endTime":7837.5,"body":"And it still wasn't even close."},{"startTime":7837.5,"endTime":7839.791,"body":"So the idea that letting men into women's"},{"startTime":7839.791,"endTime":7841.041,"body":"sports is so absurd."},{"startTime":7841.25,"endTime":7843.0,"body":"I can't believe I'm ranting now, but it's"},{"startTime":7843.0,"endTime":7844.875,"body":"one of my pet issues."},{"startTime":7844.875,"endTime":7847.083,"body":"Well, maybe we science types should come"},{"startTime":7847.083,"endTime":7850.791,"body":"up with some term that explains this"},{"startTime":7850.791,"endTime":7853.25,"body":"distinction that you and I both intuit"},{"startTime":7853.25,"endTime":7854.708,"body":"exists between men and women."},{"startTime":7854.708,"endTime":7856.875,"body":"How about sexual dimorphism?"},{"startTime":7856.875,"endTime":7857.958,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":7859.208,"endTime":7860.0,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":7860.375,"endTime":7861.083,"body":"That's a reality."},{"startTime":7861.625,"endTime":7861.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":7861.75,"endTime":7863.541,"body":"Or it was, it was back when I was in"},{"startTime":7863.541,"endTime":7865.208,"body":"graduate school, we believed in sexual"},{"startTime":7865.208,"endTime":7867.875,"body":"dimorphism, but now we know that you can"},{"startTime":7867.875,"endTime":7870.5,"body":"become shorter just by"},{"startTime":7870.5,"endTime":7871.666,"body":"declaring yourself female."},{"startTime":7872.541,"endTime":7874.583,"body":"Do you think that's over now or on its"},{"startTime":7874.583,"endTime":7876.0,"body":"way out in the next year or so?"},{"startTime":7876.25,"endTime":7878.291,"body":"I think it's on its way out."},{"startTime":7878.291,"endTime":7879.541,"body":"Too many of us are onto them."},{"startTime":7880.125,"endTime":7880.541,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":7880.541,"endTime":7882.75,"body":"I have a chapter in the truth book on"},{"startTime":7882.75,"endTime":7883.291,"body":"free will and"},{"startTime":7883.291,"endTime":7885.083,"body":"determinism, decided to take this on."},{"startTime":7886.083,"endTime":7887.291,"body":"I'm a compatible list."},{"startTime":7887.5,"endTime":7889.0,"body":"And so my work, or I'll just tell you my"},{"startTime":7889.0,"endTime":7889.791,"body":"work around on this."},{"startTime":7890.0,"endTime":7893.541,"body":"And I use Robert Sapolsky and Sam Harris"},{"startTime":7893.541,"endTime":7896.125,"body":"as the kind of stereotypical"},{"startTime":7896.125,"endTime":7899.208,"body":"determinists, although their arguments"},{"startTime":7899.208,"endTime":7900.208,"body":"are not that original."},{"startTime":7900.458,"endTime":7901.208,"body":"It's been around for a"},{"startTime":7901.208,"endTime":7902.75,"body":"long time as you know."},{"startTime":7903.125,"endTime":7905.708,"body":"And that they asked the question, could"},{"startTime":7905.708,"endTime":7906.791,"body":"you have done otherwise?"},{"startTime":7908.291,"endTime":7909.541,"body":"So here's how I think about it."},{"startTime":7909.541,"endTime":7911.541,"body":"I got thinking about Steve Gould's idea"},{"startTime":7911.541,"endTime":7913.416,"body":"of the, you know, rewind the tape of life"},{"startTime":7913.416,"endTime":7914.833,"body":"and play it back from the Cambrian,"},{"startTime":7915.375,"endTime":7916.208,"body":"pre-Cambrian, whatever,"},{"startTime":7916.208,"endTime":7917.25,"body":"would we still be here?"},{"startTime":7918.041,"endTime":7918.25,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":7918.25,"endTime":7920.708,"body":"And as Dan Dannett pointed out to Gould,"},{"startTime":7922.0,"endTime":7923.666,"body":"well, if it's a read-only memory tape,"},{"startTime":7923.666,"endTime":7925.625,"body":"then no, because that's just a recording"},{"startTime":7925.625,"endTime":7926.708,"body":"of what actually happened."},{"startTime":7926.708,"endTime":7928.083,"body":"So that's where I start there."},{"startTime":7928.416,"endTime":7931.166,"body":"You know, if I go back a week or a month"},{"startTime":7931.166,"endTime":7934.166,"body":"or 10 years in my life and play the tape"},{"startTime":7934.166,"endTime":7937.083,"body":"back, if it's a tape of recording, then"},{"startTime":7937.083,"endTime":7938.541,"body":"no, I can't have done different because"},{"startTime":7938.541,"endTime":7940.375,"body":"that's what actually happened, right?"},{"startTime":7940.625,"endTime":7942.083,"body":"So the past is determined."},{"startTime":7942.083,"endTime":7943.833,"body":"Once it happens, that's it."},{"startTime":7943.833,"endTime":7945.083,"body":"You can't redo it."},{"startTime":7945.083,"endTime":7946.791,"body":"But the future is not predetermined."},{"startTime":7947.75,"endTime":7949.458,"body":"And that, you know, the Heraclitus'"},{"startTime":7949.458,"endTime":7951.25,"body":"principle, you can't step into the same"},{"startTime":7951.25,"endTime":7952.75,"body":"river twice because the river is not the"},{"startTime":7952.75,"endTime":7953.958,"body":"same and you're not the same."},{"startTime":7955.0,"endTime":7957.583,"body":"Or, you know, Jorge Borges, you know,"},{"startTime":7957.583,"endTime":7959.791,"body":"Garden of Forking Paths, each fork path"},{"startTime":7959.791,"endTime":7962.166,"body":"you take has a different outcome than had"},{"startTime":7962.166,"endTime":7963.333,"body":"you gone this way or that way."},{"startTime":7963.583,"endTime":7965.458,"body":"And that future is not determined."},{"startTime":7965.708,"endTime":7968.5,"body":"So we are free to, in a sense,"},{"startTime":7969.666,"endTime":7970.5,"body":"influence our future"},{"startTime":7970.583,"endTime":7972.458,"body":"conditions for our present self."},{"startTime":7972.958,"endTime":7975.416,"body":"So the example I use is, you know, my"},{"startTime":7975.416,"endTime":7977.291,"body":"current self knows that tomorrow morning"},{"startTime":7977.291,"endTime":7979.25,"body":"at 6 a.m. when I'm supposed to get up and"},{"startTime":7979.25,"endTime":7981.333,"body":"go for my workout, I'm really not going"},{"startTime":7981.333,"endTime":7982.875,"body":"to be vibing and I'm going to be groggy."},{"startTime":7982.875,"endTime":7983.458,"body":"So I'm going to put my"},{"startTime":7983.458,"endTime":7984.708,"body":"workout clothes today."},{"startTime":7985.333,"endTime":7987.25,"body":"I'm going to have my bike ready and I'm"},{"startTime":7987.25,"endTime":7988.708,"body":"going to have the food ready and so on."},{"startTime":7988.916,"endTime":7990.333,"body":"I'll do that tonight because future"},{"startTime":7990.333,"endTime":7992.0,"body":"Shermer, you know, I know what he's like."},{"startTime":7992.0,"endTime":7992.166,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":7992.166,"endTime":7994.75,"body":"So in that sense, we have some volitional"},{"startTime":7994.75,"endTime":7997.166,"body":"choice over shaping the future."},{"startTime":7997.5,"endTime":8000.375,"body":"So I call that self-determinism in a way"},{"startTime":8000.375,"endTime":8002.875,"body":"we help shape the future going forward."},{"startTime":8002.875,"endTime":8004.875,"body":"So anyway, that's my that's my standing"},{"startTime":8004.875,"endTime":8006.166,"body":"on one foot explanation."},{"startTime":8006.583,"endTime":8006.958,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":8008.708,"endTime":8013.666,"body":"Well, here's my perspective."},{"startTime":8014.75,"endTime":8019.583,"body":"I believe the facts of the universe as we"},{"startTime":8019.583,"endTime":8023.833,"body":"understand them strongly suggest we have"},{"startTime":8023.833,"endTime":8027.083,"body":"a degree of freedom, that this is not a"},{"startTime":8027.083,"endTime":8028.958,"body":"perfectly deterministic universe."},{"startTime":8030.041,"endTime":8032.25,"body":"I think the amount of free will that we"},{"startTime":8032.25,"endTime":8035.125,"body":"have is far lower than it feels like we"},{"startTime":8035.125,"endTime":8036.958,"body":"have, that free will is a struggle."},{"startTime":8038.083,"endTime":8042.041,"body":"But I do not agree with Harris and"},{"startTime":8042.041,"endTime":8044.5,"body":"Sapolsky that we have no free will."},{"startTime":8046.583,"endTime":8047.875,"body":"And in Harris's case,"},{"startTime":8049.041,"endTime":8053.083,"body":"I see him cheating that basically there"},{"startTime":8053.083,"endTime":8056.541,"body":"are two versions of free will."},{"startTime":8056.833,"endTime":8057.291,"body":"One,"},{"startTime":8059.125,"endTime":8060.25,"body":"the"},{"startTime":8062.416,"endTime":8066.458,"body":"mot of the mot and Bailey is that"},{"startTime":8066.458,"endTime":8068.125,"body":"whatever you decide"},{"startTime":8068.125,"endTime":8070.833,"body":"to do is the result of"},{"startTime":8072.166,"endTime":8072.958,"body":"whatever you've"},{"startTime":8072.958,"endTime":8075.583,"body":"experienced, which you didn't choose."},{"startTime":8075.916,"endTime":8076.916,"body":"So you don't get credit."},{"startTime":8077.75,"endTime":8078.708,"body":"That's the low bar."},{"startTime":8079.083,"endTime":8080.625,"body":"And then the high bar is you don't have"},{"startTime":8080.625,"endTime":8082.0,"body":"the ability to choose anything at all."},{"startTime":8082.666,"endTime":8084.333,"body":"Now, what I would argue is that the facts"},{"startTime":8084.333,"endTime":8088.333,"body":"of evolution, it's not impossible that"},{"startTime":8088.333,"endTime":8092.0,"body":"the world that we experience would be the"},{"startTime":8092.0,"endTime":8093.583,"body":"product of a perfectly deterministic"},{"startTime":8093.583,"endTime":8095.625,"body":"universe, but it wouldn't make any sense."},{"startTime":8096.583,"endTime":8097.666,"body":"What evolution is"},{"startTime":8097.666,"endTime":8098.75,"body":"wouldn't make any sense."},{"startTime":8099.208,"endTime":8100.875,"body":"Having a consciousness would be"},{"startTime":8101.0,"endTime":8103.583,"body":"completely pointless if it was trapped"},{"startTime":8103.583,"endTime":8105.166,"body":"and unable to do"},{"startTime":8105.166,"endTime":8107.833,"body":"anything that changed anything."},{"startTime":8108.5,"endTime":8115.375,"body":"So the punchline is I believe it is"},{"startTime":8115.375,"endTime":8117.833,"body":"highly likely that we have a degree of"},{"startTime":8117.833,"endTime":8121.458,"body":"free will, that a life well lived is one"},{"startTime":8121.458,"endTime":8123.208,"body":"in which you take the small amount of"},{"startTime":8123.208,"endTime":8124.375,"body":"free will that you have,"},{"startTime":8125.375,"endTime":8127.791,"body":"and you use it to increase the degree of"},{"startTime":8127.791,"endTime":8129.0,"body":"the freedom of your will."},{"startTime":8130.041,"endTime":8130.25,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":8130.416,"endTime":8132.416,"body":"That you are trying to accumulate the"},{"startTime":8132.416,"endTime":8135.458,"body":"power to alter your course more so that"},{"startTime":8135.458,"endTime":8136.291,"body":"you can do something"},{"startTime":8136.291,"endTime":8138.083,"body":"useful and good with it."},{"startTime":8138.833,"endTime":8142.375,"body":"But I don't believe we have any"},{"startTime":8142.375,"endTime":8145.0,"body":"mechanistic understanding of how we could"},{"startTime":8145.0,"endTime":8146.416,"body":"have free will, that"},{"startTime":8146.416,"endTime":8147.791,"body":"that's the sticking point."},{"startTime":8148.458,"endTime":8150.541,"body":"The fact that we don't have a good, you"},{"startTime":8150.541,"endTime":8153.083,"body":"know, ultimately it has to derive from"},{"startTime":8153.083,"endTime":8155.708,"body":"Heisenberg, but it's an awfully long way"},{"startTime":8155.708,"endTime":8159.583,"body":"from Heisenberg and uncertainty to I have"},{"startTime":8159.583,"endTime":8163.375,"body":"the capacity to lift this glass up at"},{"startTime":8163.375,"endTime":8165.125,"body":"will or not to do so."},{"startTime":8165.791,"endTime":8169.75,"body":"But somewhere there must be a mechanism"},{"startTime":8169.75,"endTime":8172.0,"body":"that explains this because otherwise if"},{"startTime":8172.0,"endTime":8175.666,"body":"you think about, you know, the coyote"},{"startTime":8175.666,"endTime":8180.625,"body":"chasing the rabbit in a universe where"},{"startTime":8180.625,"endTime":8183.958,"body":"the outcome was completely predetermined"},{"startTime":8183.958,"endTime":8185.75,"body":"from the first instant,"},{"startTime":8186.625,"endTime":8187.208,"body":"the roadrunner."},{"startTime":8187.208,"endTime":8189.375,"body":"Yeah, it's, it's a,"},{"startTime":8189.416,"endTime":8192.041,"body":"it's an insane paradox."},{"startTime":8192.75,"endTime":8194.125,"body":"Likewise, my own"},{"startTime":8194.125,"endTime":8195.75,"body":"experience of this moment."},{"startTime":8196.458,"endTime":8198.25,"body":"Why would I have an experience of this"},{"startTime":8198.25,"endTime":8201.291,"body":"moment if I'm a, you know, a puppet whose"},{"startTime":8201.291,"endTime":8203.041,"body":"actions were completely"},{"startTime":8203.041,"endTime":8205.125,"body":"guaranteed from the first instant?"},{"startTime":8205.791,"endTime":8207.375,"body":"Well, I like Dan Dennett's idea of"},{"startTime":8207.375,"endTime":8208.958,"body":"degrees of freedom, right?"},{"startTime":8208.958,"endTime":8211.208,"body":"So the, the roadrunner and the coyote"},{"startTime":8211.208,"endTime":8212.791,"body":"have fewer degrees of freedom than you"},{"startTime":8212.791,"endTime":8214.5,"body":"and I have, and they have more degrees of"},{"startTime":8214.5,"endTime":8215.833,"body":"freedom than the cockroach or whatever."},{"startTime":8215.833,"endTime":8218.583,"body":"So, you know, how many options are there,"},{"startTime":8218.583,"endTime":8220.833,"body":"you know, going forward down the path of"},{"startTime":8220.833,"endTime":8222.625,"body":"garden of forking paths and so on."},{"startTime":8223.208,"endTime":8223.75,"body":"And then I guess it"},{"startTime":8223.75,"endTime":8225.0,"body":"depends on what you mean by will."},{"startTime":8225.333,"endTime":8228.291,"body":"I mean, free will, I will it to happen."},{"startTime":8228.916,"endTime":8230.333,"body":"Now this is an interesting problem for"},{"startTime":8230.333,"endTime":8231.666,"body":"clinical psychologists."},{"startTime":8232.208,"endTime":8234.083,"body":"I've had a few on the podcast that wrote"},{"startTime":8234.083,"endTime":8236.541,"body":"books about this, you know, there, what"},{"startTime":8236.541,"endTime":8238.416,"body":"is it, what's happening when they are"},{"startTime":8238.416,"endTime":8241.083,"body":"clients who have, let's say, some kind of"},{"startTime":8241.083,"endTime":8243.125,"body":"addiction and they actually overcome it."},{"startTime":8243.125,"endTime":8243.916,"body":"They really do."},{"startTime":8243.916,"endTime":8246.0,"body":"They really stop drinking or smoking or"},{"startTime":8246.0,"endTime":8247.75,"body":"drugs or whatever the problem is."},{"startTime":8248.458,"endTime":8249.958,"body":"And there's techniques, you know, that"},{"startTime":8249.958,"endTime":8251.333,"body":"clinical psychologists use."},{"startTime":8251.333,"endTime":8252.75,"body":"Here's the kind of, here's some of the"},{"startTime":8252.75,"endTime":8254.625,"body":"tools you could have when you feel the"},{"startTime":8254.625,"endTime":8255.833,"body":"urge is bubbling up."},{"startTime":8255.833,"endTime":8256.583,"body":"This is what I'd really"},{"startTime":8256.583,"endTime":8257.625,"body":"like, a drink or whatever."},{"startTime":8257.958,"endTime":8259.0,"body":"Here's like the three"},{"startTime":8259.0,"endTime":8259.875,"body":"things you could do."},{"startTime":8260.291,"endTime":8262.125,"body":"You know, you repeat to yourself this, or"},{"startTime":8262.125,"endTime":8262.791,"body":"you go in this other"},{"startTime":8262.791,"endTime":8263.833,"body":"room or whatever it is."},{"startTime":8264.541,"endTime":8266.083,"body":"And so, but who's doing that?"},{"startTime":8266.083,"endTime":8268.458,"body":"Well, you are, you know, and I guess the"},{"startTime":8268.458,"endTime":8269.708,"body":"determinants would say, yeah, but that"},{"startTime":8269.708,"endTime":8270.916,"body":"was all determined also."},{"startTime":8271.375,"endTime":8274.5,"body":"Yeah, but, but somebody, me, there's a"},{"startTime":8274.5,"endTime":8276.75,"body":"me, there's a will, there's a self, which"},{"startTime":8276.75,"endTime":8278.916,"body":"is sort of an illusion, I guess, but"},{"startTime":8278.916,"endTime":8280.041,"body":"it's, it's a good illusion."},{"startTime":8281.0,"endTime":8282.833,"body":"And, and so, you know, the fact that the"},{"startTime":8282.833,"endTime":8284.75,"body":"fact that people are able to do that"},{"startTime":8284.75,"endTime":8285.958,"body":"seems to be evidence of"},{"startTime":8285.958,"endTime":8288.5,"body":"something like a will to choose."},{"startTime":8289.041,"endTime":8289.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8290.333,"endTime":8292.083,"body":"I think, I think, well, I"},{"startTime":8292.083,"endTime":8293.958,"body":"mean, we could be a screensaver."},{"startTime":8294.833,"endTime":8297.125,"body":"Why we would have consciousness to be"},{"startTime":8297.125,"endTime":8300.75,"body":"aware of any of this is a paradox."},{"startTime":8301.0,"endTime":8301.916,"body":"I don't think we can answer,"},{"startTime":8302.458,"endTime":8304.583,"body":"but I think it is unlikely."},{"startTime":8305.0,"endTime":8305.625,"body":"This would be a very"},{"startTime":8305.625,"endTime":8308.333,"body":"strange screensaver to build."},{"startTime":8308.916,"endTime":8311.5,"body":"It's a weird way of accomplishing"},{"startTime":8311.5,"endTime":8313.041,"body":"whatever this is accomplishing."},{"startTime":8315.291,"endTime":8318.5,"body":"And so I wish I heard more people"},{"startTime":8318.5,"endTime":8321.875,"body":"acknowledging our will appears to be"},{"startTime":8321.875,"endTime":8324.708,"body":"free, not as free as we would like."},{"startTime":8326.0,"endTime":8328.208,"body":"We can increase the degree of our freedom"},{"startTime":8328.208,"endTime":8330.416,"body":"as per Dennett's formulation,"},{"startTime":8331.416,"endTime":8332.833,"body":"but mechanistically, we're"},{"startTime":8332.833,"endTime":8334.083,"body":"at a loss for how that works."},{"startTime":8334.5,"endTime":8335.666,"body":"But there's nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":8336.25,"endTime":8338.125,"body":"You know, I mean, Darwin was in the same"},{"startTime":8338.125,"endTime":8339.083,"body":"position with evolution."},{"startTime":8339.75,"endTime":8342.5,"body":"He could see that evolution, that"},{"startTime":8342.5,"endTime":8344.833,"body":"adaptive evolution took place, but he"},{"startTime":8344.833,"endTime":8346.5,"body":"knew nothing of the underlying mechanism."},{"startTime":8346.666,"endTime":8348.25,"body":"And that didn't make the idea invalid."},{"startTime":8349.041,"endTime":8349.25,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":8350.541,"endTime":8353.291,"body":"Here's Sapolsky, we're nothing more or"},{"startTime":8353.291,"endTime":8355.291,"body":"less than the cumulative biological and"},{"startTime":8355.291,"endTime":8357.541,"body":"environmental luck over which we had no"},{"startTime":8357.541,"endTime":8358.458,"body":"control that has"},{"startTime":8358.458,"endTime":8359.833,"body":"brought us to any moment."},{"startTime":8360.958,"endTime":8363.333,"body":"But, you know, Bob's book, Robert's book"},{"startTime":8363.333,"endTime":8366.458,"body":"opens with a story of him at Stanford"},{"startTime":8366.5,"endTime":8368.833,"body":"University graduation ceremony."},{"startTime":8368.833,"endTime":8369.791,"body":"And he's sitting there, one of the"},{"startTime":8369.791,"endTime":8372.083,"body":"faculty and all the students are up"},{"startTime":8372.083,"endTime":8373.916,"body":"there, getting congratulated."},{"startTime":8374.125,"endTime":8375.833,"body":"The parents and grandparents are so proud"},{"startTime":8375.833,"endTime":8376.916,"body":"of their accomplishments."},{"startTime":8377.5,"endTime":8379.291,"body":"And there in the background is a"},{"startTime":8379.291,"endTime":8381.541,"body":"gardener, you know, just trimming the"},{"startTime":8381.541,"endTime":8383.833,"body":"tree or whatever that poor guy, he's"},{"startTime":8383.833,"endTime":8384.708,"body":"never going to Stanford."},{"startTime":8385.5,"endTime":8386.458,"body":"Why is that?"},{"startTime":8387.083,"endTime":8388.416,"body":"This is where he starts."},{"startTime":8388.416,"endTime":8390.5,"body":"A hot gum, that guy got to go to Stanford"},{"startTime":8390.5,"endTime":8391.833,"body":"and get the degree and"},{"startTime":8391.833,"endTime":8392.958,"body":"that guy's a gardener."},{"startTime":8393.291,"endTime":8393.5,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":8393.5,"endTime":8395.375,"body":"So that's, to me, some of this"},{"startTime":8395.375,"endTime":8398.583,"body":"determinism feels like if, if determinism"},{"startTime":8398.583,"endTime":8401.958,"body":"is not true, then, you know, then it's"},{"startTime":8401.958,"endTime":8403.458,"body":"not just bad luck, good luck."},{"startTime":8403.458,"endTime":8404.166,"body":"There's something else"},{"startTime":8404.166,"endTime":8405.958,"body":"in how lives turn out."},{"startTime":8405.958,"endTime":8408.041,"body":"Anyway, that was my sense of that, you"},{"startTime":8408.041,"endTime":8410.25,"body":"know, it's sort of a kind"},{"startTime":8410.25,"endTime":8411.916,"body":"of a more tolerant feeling."},{"startTime":8412.208,"endTime":8413.0,"body":"It feels like it's more"},{"startTime":8413.0,"endTime":8415.0,"body":"tolerant of how lives come out."},{"startTime":8415.5,"endTime":8417.0,"body":"Well, let me say this."},{"startTime":8417.0,"endTime":8419.041,"body":"I'm a big fan of Sapolsky's."},{"startTime":8419.375,"endTime":8420.5,"body":"I really think very highly."},{"startTime":8420.75,"endTime":8421.0,"body":"Me too."},{"startTime":8421.25,"endTime":8421.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8421.416,"endTime":8421.833,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":8421.833,"endTime":8422.875,"body":"I do not think"},{"startTime":8424.333,"endTime":8430.0,"body":"his work on free will is high quality and"},{"startTime":8430.0,"endTime":8432.208,"body":"is reflective of something that I think"},{"startTime":8432.208,"endTime":8434.041,"body":"we all need to be aware of."},{"startTime":8434.833,"endTime":8437.083,"body":"I've known many great thinkers."},{"startTime":8438.375,"endTime":8443.541,"body":"There is often some quadrant where their"},{"startTime":8443.541,"endTime":8445.666,"body":"thinking is not high quality."},{"startTime":8447.291,"endTime":8450.583,"body":"And I take it actually a contractor that"},{"startTime":8450.583,"endTime":8452.583,"body":"Heather and I worked with many years ago"},{"startTime":8452.583,"endTime":8454.875,"body":"said something interesting."},{"startTime":8454.875,"endTime":8457.416,"body":"He said, there's often one room in a"},{"startTime":8457.416,"endTime":8459.458,"body":"house that makes no sense."},{"startTime":8459.958,"endTime":8461.666,"body":"And basically it's where all of the"},{"startTime":8461.666,"endTime":8463.416,"body":"little errors have been pushed."},{"startTime":8463.75,"endTime":8465.583,"body":"So they concentrate because it's better"},{"startTime":8465.583,"endTime":8468.708,"body":"to have the one, you know, crazy laundry"},{"startTime":8468.708,"endTime":8471.458,"body":"room or closet than to have those errors"},{"startTime":8471.458,"endTime":8473.0,"body":"distributed throughout the design."},{"startTime":8473.0,"endTime":8476.625,"body":"And so, you know, I hear Ian McGillcrest"},{"startTime":8477.291,"endTime":8480.958,"body":"talk about panpsychism, right?"},{"startTime":8481.208,"endTime":8483.041,"body":"And the belief that consciousness is in"},{"startTime":8483.041,"endTime":8484.625,"body":"the particles themselves."},{"startTime":8485.0,"endTime":8487.333,"body":"And I think here's another incredibly"},{"startTime":8487.333,"endTime":8489.083,"body":"high quality thinker."},{"startTime":8489.75,"endTime":8491.708,"body":"And there's this one place where it just"},{"startTime":8491.791,"endTime":8494.5,"body":"doesn't sound like it doesn't"},{"startTime":8494.5,"endTime":8495.791,"body":"sound like their other work."},{"startTime":8497.0,"endTime":8500.041,"body":"Here's Sam from his book, Free Will."},{"startTime":8500.5,"endTime":8501.416,"body":"Our wills are simply"},{"startTime":8501.416,"endTime":8502.625,"body":"not of our own making."},{"startTime":8503.166,"endTime":8504.583,"body":"Thoughts and intentions emerge from"},{"startTime":8504.583,"endTime":8506.458,"body":"background causes of which we are unaware"},{"startTime":8506.458,"endTime":8507.625,"body":"and over which we"},{"startTime":8507.625,"endTime":8509.041,"body":"exert no conscious control."},{"startTime":8509.25,"endTime":8510.0,"body":"We do not have the"},{"startTime":8510.0,"endTime":8511.083,"body":"freedom we think we have."},{"startTime":8511.416,"endTime":8511.625,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":8511.625,"endTime":8512.291,"body":"So here's my little"},{"startTime":8512.291,"endTime":8513.833,"body":"humorous thought experiment."},{"startTime":8513.833,"endTime":8514.916,"body":"I'll use it on you, Bret."},{"startTime":8515.291,"endTime":8515.666,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":8515.666,"endTime":8518.5,"body":"So you and Heather have a devoted, high"},{"startTime":8518.5,"endTime":8520.333,"body":"fidelity, loving marriage."},{"startTime":8520.625,"endTime":8520.958,"body":"Quite right."},{"startTime":8520.958,"endTime":8523.75,"body":"But let's just say, hypothetically, you"},{"startTime":8523.75,"endTime":8525.208,"body":"strayed one time, you're out at a"},{"startTime":8525.208,"endTime":8526.5,"body":"conference, freedom fest, whatever."},{"startTime":8527.125,"endTime":8530.0,"body":"And Heather finds out, how is she going"},{"startTime":8530.0,"endTime":8532.041,"body":"to respond if you say, well, darling,"},{"startTime":8533.833,"endTime":8535.833,"body":"my will is simply not of my own making."},{"startTime":8536.625,"endTime":8538.166,"body":"My thoughts and intentions emerge from"},{"startTime":8538.166,"endTime":8540.0,"body":"background causes of which I'm unaware"},{"startTime":8540.0,"endTime":8540.916,"body":"and over which I have"},{"startTime":8540.916,"endTime":8541.875,"body":"no conscious control."},{"startTime":8542.25,"endTime":8543.5,"body":"Could you even finish the sentence?"},{"startTime":8545.0,"endTime":8547.75,"body":"No, I do not intend to"},{"startTime":8547.75,"endTime":8550.041,"body":"find out what she would think."},{"startTime":8550.416,"endTime":8551.625,"body":"Just keep that as a thought experiment."},{"startTime":8551.833,"endTime":8552.583,"body":"But yeah, I mean, the"},{"startTime":8552.583,"endTime":8554.041,"body":"point is, come on, really."},{"startTime":8554.458,"endTime":8554.666,"body":"I mean,"},{"startTime":8555.791,"endTime":8557.833,"body":"are any determinist actually really"},{"startTime":8557.833,"endTime":8559.083,"body":"determinist in their lives?"},{"startTime":8561.458,"endTime":8563.583,"body":"They're not, obviously not."},{"startTime":8563.583,"endTime":8565.166,"body":"I mean, and you know, Sam Harris being"},{"startTime":8565.166,"endTime":8568.916,"body":"the world's best example, right?"},{"startTime":8568.916,"endTime":8571.916,"body":"He spends how much time in meditation,"},{"startTime":8572.958,"endTime":8577.666,"body":"which is presumably about liberating his"},{"startTime":8577.666,"endTime":8579.833,"body":"mind from certain things and pointing it"},{"startTime":8579.833,"endTime":8581.833,"body":"in a different direction and being super"},{"startTime":8581.833,"endTime":8583.041,"body":"deliberate about it."},{"startTime":8583.791,"endTime":8584.0,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":8584.5,"endTime":8588.5,"body":"So you know, and scientists"},{"startTime":8588.5,"endTime":8590.5,"body":"used to give postmodernists"},{"startTime":8591.541,"endTime":8593.708,"body":"a hard time, rightly so,"},{"startTime":8593.708,"endTime":8595.416,"body":"over their postmodernism."},{"startTime":8595.416,"endTime":8599.458,"body":"And I maybe it was even Dawkins, who"},{"startTime":8599.458,"endTime":8603.166,"body":"invited some postmodern feminist if she"},{"startTime":8603.166,"endTime":8605.708,"body":"really believed what she was saying to"},{"startTime":8605.708,"endTime":8607.583,"body":"instead of taking the stairs down from"},{"startTime":8607.583,"endTime":8609.208,"body":"her office to walk out the window."},{"startTime":8610.916,"endTime":8615.833,"body":"And I feel like this with these hardcore"},{"startTime":8615.833,"endTime":8617.583,"body":"determinists, right?"},{"startTime":8617.583,"endTime":8621.0,"body":"It's like, what sense would it even mean?"},{"startTime":8621.875,"endTime":8623.041,"body":"You're making an argument."},{"startTime":8623.75,"endTime":8626.125,"body":"To make an argument is effectively to"},{"startTime":8626.125,"endTime":8628.916,"body":"accept that there is"},{"startTime":8628.916,"endTime":8630.25,"body":"an argument to be made."},{"startTime":8630.25,"endTime":8632.791,"body":"And the idea that you have a, you know,"},{"startTime":8633.25,"endTime":8635.333,"body":"it is so preposterous that your"},{"startTime":8635.333,"endTime":8638.375,"body":"consciousness would be trapped under the"},{"startTime":8638.375,"endTime":8642.166,"body":"false impression that it was shaping the"},{"startTime":8642.166,"endTime":8645.291,"body":"world in some way only to witness the"},{"startTime":8645.291,"endTime":8646.958,"body":"screen saver from the inside."},{"startTime":8647.791,"endTime":8649.208,"body":"Like what universe"},{"startTime":8649.208,"endTime":8650.333,"body":"are you even imagining?"},{"startTime":8652.166,"endTime":8653.666,"body":"Yeah, I think also"},{"startTime":8653.666,"endTime":8655.25,"body":"there's some physics envy there."},{"startTime":8656.458,"endTime":8658.708,"body":"Free will is not to be found in the"},{"startTime":8658.708,"endTime":8661.083,"body":"quarks or atoms, right?"},{"startTime":8661.333,"endTime":8664.25,"body":"It's like the analogy I use is, you know,"},{"startTime":8664.5,"endTime":8665.25,"body":"where in your physics"},{"startTime":8665.25,"endTime":8666.583,"body":"equations is inflation?"},{"startTime":8667.791,"endTime":8669.0,"body":"I mean, inflation is a"},{"startTime":8669.0,"endTime":8670.25,"body":"real economic phenomenon."},{"startTime":8670.25,"endTime":8671.166,"body":"People study it."},{"startTime":8671.166,"endTime":8672.75,"body":"It has huge consequences"},{"startTime":8672.75,"endTime":8673.958,"body":"for our lives and so on."},{"startTime":8673.958,"endTime":8675.416,"body":"Where is it in the brain,"},{"startTime":8675.625,"endTime":8677.041,"body":"in your quantum physics?"},{"startTime":8677.041,"endTime":8678.041,"body":"It isn't anywhere."},{"startTime":8678.041,"endTime":8678.5,"body":"It's an emergent"},{"startTime":8678.5,"endTime":8679.458,"body":"property of something else."},{"startTime":8679.708,"endTime":8680.541,"body":"Well, hold on."},{"startTime":8680.541,"endTime":8681.083,"body":"I was actually going"},{"startTime":8681.083,"endTime":8682.166,"body":"to ask you about this."},{"startTime":8683.5,"endTime":8684.375,"body":"I had it written down"},{"startTime":8684.375,"endTime":8685.416,"body":"in my list of questions."},{"startTime":8689.791,"endTime":8691.875,"body":"There's a dichotomy, I would imagine"},{"startTime":8691.875,"endTime":8693.875,"body":"you're aware of it, between strong"},{"startTime":8693.875,"endTime":8695.458,"body":"emergentists and weak"},{"startTime":8695.458,"endTime":8697.125,"body":"emergent emergentists."},{"startTime":8697.5,"endTime":8698.5,"body":"Strong emergentists"},{"startTime":8698.5,"endTime":8701.416,"body":"believe that you cannot,"},{"startTime":8702.5,"endTime":8705.125,"body":"even in principle, understand higher"},{"startTime":8705.125,"endTime":8707.333,"body":"level phenomena from the levels below."},{"startTime":8708.5,"endTime":8712.958,"body":"Weak emergentists believe that we cannot"},{"startTime":8712.958,"endTime":8715.75,"body":"explain higher level phenomena from the"},{"startTime":8715.75,"endTime":8717.25,"body":"lower levels, but that"},{"startTime":8717.25,"endTime":8718.541,"body":"they are explainable."},{"startTime":8718.916,"endTime":8719.916,"body":"Why was that the lower?"},{"startTime":8720.125,"endTime":8722.25,"body":"Yeah, I find myself in that category."},{"startTime":8722.25,"endTime":8722.833,"body":"Yeah, me too."},{"startTime":8723.125,"endTime":8723.333,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8723.5,"endTime":8727.208,"body":"So if that is the case, then things like"},{"startTime":8727.208,"endTime":8731.666,"body":"inflation are emergent properties that"},{"startTime":8731.666,"endTime":8734.166,"body":"are not deducible from"},{"startTime":8737.0,"endTime":8740.583,"body":"the particle interactions anymore than a"},{"startTime":8740.583,"endTime":8742.125,"body":"baseball game is"},{"startTime":8742.125,"endTime":8745.041,"body":"described in, you know, particles."},{"startTime":8746.75,"endTime":8748.458,"body":"But you could, if you had enough"},{"startTime":8748.458,"endTime":8751.041,"body":"computing power and the will to do it,"},{"startTime":8751.041,"endTime":8754.416,"body":"calculate the baseball game as a result"},{"startTime":8754.416,"endTime":8757.875,"body":"of it, except for the Heisenbergian"},{"startTime":8757.875,"endTime":8761.0,"body":"aspect, which we presume to be"},{"startTime":8761.0,"endTime":8762.5,"body":"fundamentally incalculable."},{"startTime":8764.208,"endTime":8766.5,"body":"Here's how Kevin Mitchell, he's a"},{"startTime":8766.5,"endTime":8768.291,"body":"geneticist and neuroscientist, his book"},{"startTime":8768.291,"endTime":8769.25,"body":"is called Free Agents."},{"startTime":8770.583,"endTime":8772.75,"body":"He says, \"Basic laws of physics that deal"},{"startTime":8772.75,"endTime":8774.791,"body":"only with energy and matter and"},{"startTime":8774.791,"endTime":8776.791,"body":"fundamental forces cannot explain what"},{"startTime":8776.791,"endTime":8778.958,"body":"life is or its defining property."},{"startTime":8779.0,"endTime":8781.916,"body":"Living organisms do things for reasons as"},{"startTime":8781.916,"endTime":8783.541,"body":"causal agents in their own right."},{"startTime":8784.166,"endTime":8785.041,"body":"They're driven not by"},{"startTime":8785.041,"endTime":8786.416,"body":"energy, but by information."},{"startTime":8787.25,"endTime":8788.625,"body":"And the meaning of that information is"},{"startTime":8788.625,"endTime":8790.541,"body":"embodied in the structure of the system"},{"startTime":8790.541,"endTime":8792.5,"body":"itself based on its history."},{"startTime":8793.041,"endTime":8794.125,"body":"In short, there are fundamentally"},{"startTime":8794.125,"endTime":8796.75,"body":"distinct types of causation at play in"},{"startTime":8796.75,"endTime":8798.208,"body":"living organisms by"},{"startTime":8798.208,"endTime":8799.416,"body":"virtue of their organization."},{"startTime":8800.083,"endTime":8802.0,"body":"That extension through time generates a"},{"startTime":8802.0,"endTime":8804.541,"body":"new kind of causation that is not seen in"},{"startTime":8804.541,"endTime":8807.041,"body":"most physical processes, one based on a"},{"startTime":8807.041,"endTime":8809.083,"body":"record of history in which information"},{"startTime":8809.083,"endTime":8811.375,"body":"about past events continues to play a"},{"startTime":8811.375,"endTime":8813.083,"body":"causal role in the present.\""},{"startTime":8813.333,"endTime":8816.25,"body":"So would that be strong emergentism?"},{"startTime":8816.916,"endTime":8817.583,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":8820.333,"endTime":8823.0,"body":"I believe that,"},{"startTime":8823.0,"endTime":8824.833,"body":"well, different"},{"startTime":8824.833,"endTime":8826.416,"body":"levels of causality, right?"},{"startTime":8826.416,"endTime":8828.375,"body":"There's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":8828.375,"endTime":8830.041,"body":"I think that's a strong emergentism."},{"startTime":8830.333,"endTime":8830.541,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":8830.875,"endTime":8831.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8832.0,"endTime":8832.208,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8833.041,"endTime":8836.416,"body":"Anyway, so, I don't know."},{"startTime":8836.416,"endTime":8839.791,"body":"So, in my book, these are under the sort"},{"startTime":8839.791,"endTime":8840.791,"body":"of third section of the"},{"startTime":8840.791,"endTime":8842.916,"body":"book on known unknowables."},{"startTime":8842.916,"endTime":8845.791,"body":"The problem is definitional."},{"startTime":8846.208,"endTime":8847.333,"body":"What do you mean by determined?"},{"startTime":8847.333,"endTime":8847.875,"body":"What do you mean by"},{"startTime":8847.875,"endTime":8849.5,"body":"will, free, and so on?"},{"startTime":8849.916,"endTime":8850.5,"body":"And I have the same"},{"startTime":8850.5,"endTime":8851.458,"body":"problem with consciousness."},{"startTime":8851.875,"endTime":8853.541,"body":"What's it like to be something else?"},{"startTime":8854.541,"endTime":8855.5,"body":"What's it like to be you?"},{"startTime":8855.75,"endTime":8857.083,"body":"Well, how the hell should I know?"},{"startTime":8857.083,"endTime":8858.625,"body":"I'm not you, right?"},{"startTime":8858.833,"endTime":8860.458,"body":"It was like to be a bat or whatever."},{"startTime":8860.958,"endTime":8862.5,"body":"I also struggle with that"},{"startTime":8862.5,"endTime":8863.791,"body":"in a chapter, basically,"},{"startTime":8864.916,"endTime":8866.25,"body":"it's the wrong question."},{"startTime":8866.708,"endTime":8870.208,"body":"It's a different category of question."},{"startTime":8870.208,"endTime":8873.291,"body":"It's a conceptual problem, if we just"},{"startTime":8873.291,"endTime":8874.166,"body":"work a little harder,"},{"startTime":8874.166,"endTime":8875.0,"body":"we're going to solve it."},{"startTime":8875.375,"endTime":8877.375,"body":"Like Christoph Cactus lost his bet with"},{"startTime":8877.375,"endTime":8878.916,"body":"David Chalmers last year."},{"startTime":8878.916,"endTime":8880.75,"body":"After 25 years, the hard problem of"},{"startTime":8880.75,"endTime":8881.666,"body":"consciousness not been solved."},{"startTime":8882.208,"endTime":8883.833,"body":"I don't think it'll ever be solved if"},{"startTime":8883.833,"endTime":8885.291,"body":"that's the way you're phrasing it."},{"startTime":8885.5,"endTime":8887.041,"body":"Yeah, I think it is"},{"startTime":8887.041,"endTime":8889.5,"body":"phrased to be insoluble."},{"startTime":8890.333,"endTime":8890.541,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8892.916,"endTime":8896.125,"body":"But did you confront what is it like to"},{"startTime":8896.125,"endTime":8897.041,"body":"be a bat in your book?"},{"startTime":8897.833,"endTime":8898.291,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":8898.291,"endTime":8898.666,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":8898.666,"endTime":8899.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8899.125,"endTime":8899.333,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8899.333,"endTime":8900.625,"body":"Because I also use what's"},{"startTime":8900.625,"endTime":8901.375,"body":"it like to be a dolphin."},{"startTime":8901.833,"endTime":8903.5,"body":"I can sort of imagine it, you know, if I"},{"startTime":8903.5,"endTime":8905.333,"body":"had one of those big single flippers and"},{"startTime":8905.333,"endTime":8907.291,"body":"I put on a wetsuit and I"},{"startTime":8907.291,"endTime":8909.041,"body":"go out and I eat sushi."},{"startTime":8909.791,"endTime":8912.125,"body":"But, you know, at some point, well, this"},{"startTime":8912.125,"endTime":8912.875,"body":"really gets down to"},{"startTime":8912.916,"endTime":8914.583,"body":"Aristotle's law of identity."},{"startTime":8915.208,"endTime":8916.208,"body":"A is a, you know, I"},{"startTime":8916.208,"endTime":8918.375,"body":"cannot be a dolphin or a bat."},{"startTime":8918.791,"endTime":8921.166,"body":"And if I was, I would just be that I"},{"startTime":8921.166,"endTime":8924.0,"body":"would not be this is a Cartesian dualism."},{"startTime":8924.0,"endTime":8925.958,"body":"We're picturing it like the little"},{"startTime":8925.958,"endTime":8928.125,"body":"Michael Sherman homunculus transfers over"},{"startTime":8928.125,"endTime":8929.916,"body":"into the brain of the bat and is in there"},{"startTime":8929.916,"endTime":8933.083,"body":"going, Oh, so this is what it's like."},{"startTime":8933.083,"endTime":8934.375,"body":"That's not possible."},{"startTime":8934.708,"endTime":8935.208,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":8935.208,"endTime":8936.708,"body":"So yeah, that could never happen."},{"startTime":8936.75,"endTime":8938.208,"body":"I must say that essay,"},{"startTime":8939.375,"endTime":8942.5,"body":"a colleague once inflicted that essay on"},{"startTime":8942.5,"endTime":8945.416,"body":"me, knowing that I had studied bats and"},{"startTime":8945.416,"endTime":8946.875,"body":"had quite many thoughts"},{"startTime":8946.875,"endTime":8948.291,"body":"about what it must be like."},{"startTime":8948.291,"endTime":8948.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8948.875,"endTime":8949.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":8950.166,"endTime":8952.25,"body":"And I really dislike the essay because"},{"startTime":8952.25,"endTime":8957.083,"body":"effectively, I think it is built to"},{"startTime":8957.083,"endTime":8962.0,"body":"derail a kind of productive work."},{"startTime":8962.416,"endTime":8964.375,"body":"And I'm not claiming that you can know"},{"startTime":8964.375,"endTime":8966.958,"body":"what it is like to be a bat, but you can"},{"startTime":8966.958,"endTime":8968.5,"body":"know a great many things"},{"startTime":8968.5,"endTime":8970.375,"body":"about what it's like to be a bat."},{"startTime":8971.416,"endTime":8973.125,"body":"And so anyway, who is"},{"startTime":8973.125,"endTime":8974.75,"body":"anyone to tell anyone else?"},{"startTime":8974.75,"endTime":8976.166,"body":"Don't go down that road."},{"startTime":8976.166,"endTime":8978.458,"body":"You'll never get anywhere if it is as"},{"startTime":8978.458,"endTime":8979.583,"body":"amenable to test as"},{"startTime":8979.583,"endTime":8981.708,"body":"anything else further."},{"startTime":8983.083,"endTime":8986.0,"body":"And, you know, Nagel in his essay sort of"},{"startTime":8986.0,"endTime":8987.958,"body":"pays lip service to these things."},{"startTime":8988.166,"endTime":8992.166,"body":"But the fact is a bat isn't all that"},{"startTime":8992.166,"endTime":8994.458,"body":"distant evolutionarily from you."},{"startTime":8995.333,"endTime":8995.958,"body":"And there are certain"},{"startTime":8995.958,"endTime":8997.541,"body":"things you can derive from that."},{"startTime":8997.541,"endTime":8999.708,"body":"For example, because a bat is a mammal"},{"startTime":8999.708,"endTime":9003.083,"body":"and because all mammals meet their mother"},{"startTime":9003.083,"endTime":9004.5,"body":"and their mother has to be"},{"startTime":9004.5,"endTime":9007.958,"body":"self-sacrificing on their behalf, it is"},{"startTime":9007.958,"endTime":9013.541,"body":"reasonable to imagine that love of the"},{"startTime":9013.541,"endTime":9017.375,"body":"maternal form is the primordial form that"},{"startTime":9017.375,"endTime":9019.875,"body":"all mammals experience it to one degree"},{"startTime":9019.875,"endTime":9022.125,"body":"or another, that there are two versions."},{"startTime":9022.458,"endTime":9025.041,"body":"There's the giving parental version and"},{"startTime":9025.041,"endTime":9027.75,"body":"the receiving childhood version."},{"startTime":9028.958,"endTime":9031.166,"body":"And that part of what it is like to be a"},{"startTime":9031.166,"endTime":9034.125,"body":"bat is to experience that."},{"startTime":9034.75,"endTime":9037.333,"body":"So can I prove it?"},{"startTime":9037.541,"endTime":9037.75,"body":"No."},{"startTime":9038.666,"endTime":9041.583,"body":"But is it more likely than whatever"},{"startTime":9041.583,"endTime":9043.708,"body":"drives the mother bat to obsessively"},{"startTime":9043.708,"endTime":9046.625,"body":"clean the wings of her offspring has"},{"startTime":9046.625,"endTime":9050.208,"body":"nothing to do with the love that a mother"},{"startTime":9050.208,"endTime":9051.541,"body":"human feels for a child?"},{"startTime":9052.291,"endTime":9052.5,"body":"No."},{"startTime":9052.958,"endTime":9055.0,"body":"Logically speaking, it is much more"},{"startTime":9055.0,"endTime":9056.583,"body":"likely to be the same property than"},{"startTime":9056.583,"endTime":9058.625,"body":"different because of parsimony."},{"startTime":9059.083,"endTime":9061.041,"body":"It wouldn't make sense for evolution to"},{"startTime":9061.041,"endTime":9063.125,"body":"have built that mechanism multiple times"},{"startTime":9063.125,"endTime":9066.291,"body":"when you have a clear line of dissent"},{"startTime":9066.291,"endTime":9068.666,"body":"unbroken between you"},{"startTime":9068.666,"endTime":9070.208,"body":"and every other mammal."},{"startTime":9070.875,"endTime":9072.5,"body":"Now we agree."},{"startTime":9072.875,"endTime":9073.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9073.041,"endTime":9073.5,"body":"And I agree."},{"startTime":9073.541,"endTime":9075.541,"body":"This is how I solve"},{"startTime":9075.541,"endTime":9076.625,"body":"the other minds problem."},{"startTime":9076.833,"endTime":9077.666,"body":"How do I know you're"},{"startTime":9077.666,"endTime":9078.5,"body":"sentient or whatever?"},{"startTime":9079.0,"endTime":9080.208,"body":"Well, I just apply the Copernican"},{"startTime":9080.208,"endTime":9081.25,"body":"principle to myself."},{"startTime":9081.541,"endTime":9083.208,"body":"Copernican principle, we're not special."},{"startTime":9083.208,"endTime":9083.791,"body":"I'm not special."},{"startTime":9084.208,"endTime":9084.791,"body":"You're a mammal."},{"startTime":9085.0,"endTime":9085.5,"body":"I'm a mammal."},{"startTime":9085.5,"endTime":9086.083,"body":"You're a primate."},{"startTime":9086.083,"endTime":9086.875,"body":"I'm a primate."},{"startTime":9086.875,"endTime":9087.666,"body":"You're a human."},{"startTime":9087.666,"endTime":9088.041,"body":"I'm a human."},{"startTime":9088.541,"endTime":9090.625,"body":"Very likely your nervous system works"},{"startTime":9090.625,"endTime":9092.0,"body":"mostly the same as mine."},{"startTime":9092.5,"endTime":9095.541,"body":"So if I see you angry or sad or crying or"},{"startTime":9095.541,"endTime":9097.625,"body":"laughing or whatever, there's a pretty"},{"startTime":9097.625,"endTime":9101.083,"body":"good chance I know what the inner feeling"},{"startTime":9101.083,"endTime":9101.916,"body":"is that you're"},{"startTime":9101.916,"endTime":9103.541,"body":"experiencing because I've had that."},{"startTime":9104.25,"endTime":9104.5,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":9104.5,"endTime":9105.875,"body":"So that's as good as we can get."},{"startTime":9106.166,"endTime":9106.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9106.416,"endTime":9108.416,"body":"And there's also, you know, there's an"},{"startTime":9108.416,"endTime":9110.333,"body":"evidentiary approach too."},{"startTime":9110.333,"endTime":9112.208,"body":"If I want to know if you're sentient, I"},{"startTime":9112.208,"endTime":9113.541,"body":"can just simply try to"},{"startTime":9113.541,"endTime":9115.583,"body":"ascertain how many drinks you've had."},{"startTime":9116.333,"endTime":9116.541,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9118.333,"endTime":9120.0,"body":"Well, apparently brain scans are going to"},{"startTime":9120.0,"endTime":9121.541,"body":"be able to, you know, I know what you're"},{"startTime":9121.791,"endTime":9123.458,"body":"looking at, right,"},{"startTime":9123.458,"endTime":9124.833,"body":"based on the neural firing."},{"startTime":9125.083,"endTime":9125.291,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":9125.5,"endTime":9126.875,"body":"That's an interesting."},{"startTime":9127.458,"endTime":9130.125,"body":"And then could I know what your memories"},{"startTime":9130.125,"endTime":9132.166,"body":"are or what you're feeling?"},{"startTime":9132.833,"endTime":9134.208,"body":"That's going to be even harder."},{"startTime":9134.208,"endTime":9135.083,"body":"Oh, he's feeling sad."},{"startTime":9135.083,"endTime":9136.583,"body":"Look, there was a little burst of"},{"startTime":9136.583,"endTime":9138.0,"body":"dopamine or whatever it is."},{"startTime":9138.0,"endTime":9138.708,"body":"Well, yeah."},{"startTime":9138.708,"endTime":9139.583,"body":"I mean, you know,"},{"startTime":9140.875,"endTime":9142.208,"body":"let's take one that's a"},{"startTime":9142.208,"endTime":9143.208,"body":"little more obvious though."},{"startTime":9143.958,"endTime":9147.833,"body":"If if you're up on stage"},{"startTime":9149.625,"endTime":9155.166,"body":"and somebody asks you a question and"},{"startTime":9155.166,"endTime":9158.333,"body":"suddenly you turn red in the"},{"startTime":9158.333,"endTime":9160.125,"body":"face and you begin to sweat,"},{"startTime":9162.166,"endTime":9164.208,"body":"we don't know exactly why."},{"startTime":9165.083,"endTime":9168.833,"body":"But what we can say, I think with"},{"startTime":9168.833,"endTime":9170.583,"body":"mechanistic near certainty,"},{"startTime":9171.708,"endTime":9174.291,"body":"is that your brain is suddenly working"},{"startTime":9174.291,"endTime":9178.208,"body":"really hard to solve a problem such that"},{"startTime":9178.208,"endTime":9179.541,"body":"the ability to"},{"startTime":9179.541,"endTime":9182.0,"body":"dissipate heat is insufficient."},{"startTime":9183.0,"endTime":9185.208,"body":"And so it's not good from the point of"},{"startTime":9185.208,"endTime":9187.75,"body":"view of your wellbeing to reveal to the"},{"startTime":9187.75,"endTime":9189.916,"body":"audience that you are feeling the heat,"},{"startTime":9191.0,"endTime":9193.541,"body":"but it's better than your"},{"startTime":9193.541,"endTime":9196.083,"body":"brain not processing on high."},{"startTime":9196.958,"endTime":9198.875,"body":"So it's creating a lot of heat and you're"},{"startTime":9198.875,"endTime":9199.916,"body":"having trouble dissipating it."},{"startTime":9199.958,"endTime":9201.625,"body":"And that's unfortunately conveying"},{"startTime":9201.625,"endTime":9202.5,"body":"something to the audience."},{"startTime":9203.333,"endTime":9204.666,"body":"It's reasonable to surmise"},{"startTime":9204.666,"endTime":9206.916,"body":"that from the indirect evidence."},{"startTime":9207.708,"endTime":9208.833,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9208.833,"endTime":9210.916,"body":"In fact, there's whole body research on"},{"startTime":9210.916,"endTime":9212.791,"body":"the social implications of"},{"startTime":9212.791,"endTime":9214.708,"body":"reading other people's emotions."},{"startTime":9215.208,"endTime":9216.458,"body":"You know, the whites of the eyes, you"},{"startTime":9216.458,"endTime":9218.375,"body":"could tell if somebody's blushing that"},{"startTime":9218.375,"endTime":9220.0,"body":"that's not just for the person, it's for"},{"startTime":9220.0,"endTime":9221.041,"body":"the other people to know"},{"startTime":9221.041,"endTime":9222.458,"body":"what that person is feeling."},{"startTime":9222.458,"endTime":9224.5,"body":"They're thinking, which is why facial"},{"startTime":9224.5,"endTime":9225.833,"body":"expressions are so important."},{"startTime":9225.833,"endTime":9226.291,"body":"All those micro"},{"startTime":9226.458,"endTime":9228.458,"body":"expressions that people study."},{"startTime":9229.25,"endTime":9230.708,"body":"These are social cues."},{"startTime":9231.5,"endTime":9232.416,"body":"They're social cues."},{"startTime":9232.791,"endTime":9235.375,"body":"Some of them like blushing are"},{"startTime":9235.375,"endTime":9240.0,"body":"unavoidable downsides where you're not"},{"startTime":9240.0,"endTime":9242.416,"body":"better off to convey that you're feeling"},{"startTime":9243.458,"endTime":9245.666,"body":"pressure, but you don't have a choice."},{"startTime":9246.625,"endTime":9249.416,"body":"And other ones are for the benefit of"},{"startTime":9249.416,"endTime":9253.416,"body":"your kin to pick up cues that will help"},{"startTime":9253.416,"endTime":9255.625,"body":"you coordinate and things like that."},{"startTime":9257.375,"endTime":9258.25,"body":"Before we close out"},{"startTime":9258.25,"endTime":9259.833,"body":"here, let me ask you this."},{"startTime":9259.833,"endTime":9261.083,"body":"You mentioned the hard problem of"},{"startTime":9261.083,"endTime":9263.625,"body":"consciousness, and I'm wondering if you"},{"startTime":9263.625,"endTime":9266.416,"body":"can tell me what it would"},{"startTime":9266.416,"endTime":9269.333,"body":"mean for it to be solved."},{"startTime":9270.708,"endTime":9271.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9271.083,"endTime":9272.75,"body":"Well, this is the end of the chapter."},{"startTime":9272.75,"endTime":9275.458,"body":"I say it's insoluble the way it's asked."},{"startTime":9276.083,"endTime":9277.75,"body":"In other words, the easy problem is like"},{"startTime":9277.75,"endTime":9279.416,"body":"figuring out what the wiring does."},{"startTime":9279.625,"endTime":9281.625,"body":"You know, here's where the language is"},{"startTime":9281.625,"endTime":9282.583,"body":"processed or whatever."},{"startTime":9282.833,"endTime":9285.5,"body":"But the hard problem is asking, what is"},{"startTime":9285.5,"endTime":9286.791,"body":"it like to be the wiring?"},{"startTime":9287.291,"endTime":9287.625,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":9288.375,"endTime":9290.625,"body":"And I just, I just, what, I mean, it's"},{"startTime":9290.625,"endTime":9292.041,"body":"like, what are you talking about?"},{"startTime":9292.041,"endTime":9293.458,"body":"I mean, that's not, that's"},{"startTime":9293.458,"endTime":9295.333,"body":"conceptually problematic."},{"startTime":9295.708,"endTime":9297.708,"body":"How would you know if you had the, what"},{"startTime":9297.708,"endTime":9299.041,"body":"was the substance of the bet?"},{"startTime":9300.833,"endTime":9301.208,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":9301.416,"endTime":9303.5,"body":"I actually, I forget what their criteria"},{"startTime":9303.5,"endTime":9304.416,"body":"was for what would"},{"startTime":9304.416,"endTime":9307.166,"body":"constitute a win for Christophe."},{"startTime":9307.75,"endTime":9309.166,"body":"But yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":9309.791,"endTime":9311.125,"body":"Well, you know, if you look at, it's"},{"startTime":9311.125,"endTime":9312.375,"body":"really kind of funny, back to"},{"startTime":9312.375,"endTime":9314.875,"body":"epistemology, what do the experts think?"},{"startTime":9314.875,"endTime":9316.625,"body":"If you look at Wikipedia on their hard"},{"startTime":9316.625,"endTime":9318.541,"body":"problem of consciousness, there's like 20"},{"startTime":9318.541,"endTime":9321.0,"body":"different theories and you know, and none"},{"startTime":9321.0,"endTime":9322.208,"body":"of them are, you know, there's like maybe"},{"startTime":9322.208,"endTime":9324.375,"body":"four or five that are preferred by most."},{"startTime":9324.583,"endTime":9326.75,"body":"To me, this tells me, okay, this whole"},{"startTime":9326.75,"endTime":9328.25,"body":"field is back to your"},{"startTime":9328.25,"endTime":9329.125,"body":"string theory example."},{"startTime":9329.125,"endTime":9330.875,"body":"You know, we're not even close."},{"startTime":9331.125,"endTime":9331.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9331.583,"endTime":9332.541,"body":"We're not even close enough to"},{"startTime":9332.541,"endTime":9333.75,"body":"phrase the question correctly."},{"startTime":9333.791,"endTime":9334.208,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":9335.208,"endTime":9335.625,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":9336.125,"endTime":9336.333,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9336.958,"endTime":9337.791,"body":"All right, Michael"},{"startTime":9337.791,"endTime":9339.583,"body":"Shermer, this has been delightful."},{"startTime":9340.166,"endTime":9341.583,"body":"A little heated at times,"},{"startTime":9341.958,"endTime":9344.041,"body":"but anyway, it's productive."},{"startTime":9345.166,"endTime":9345.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9346.083,"endTime":9348.041,"body":"As always, I appreciate your dedication"},{"startTime":9348.041,"endTime":9350.791,"body":"to holding other"},{"startTime":9350.791,"endTime":9352.0,"body":"people's feet to the fire."},{"startTime":9352.0,"endTime":9354.291,"body":"And I appreciate that you do it with me."},{"startTime":9355.125,"endTime":9359.208,"body":"Your book, I have the pre-print."},{"startTime":9359.583,"endTime":9360.416,"body":"Here's the, here's the,"},{"startTime":9360.416,"endTime":9361.958,"body":"here's the hardback edition."},{"startTime":9361.958,"endTime":9364.083,"body":"Look, it's got the, it's like the little"},{"startTime":9364.083,"endTime":9366.541,"body":"North star light of truth."},{"startTime":9366.541,"endTime":9366.916,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9366.916,"endTime":9367.583,"body":"That's the idea."},{"startTime":9368.083,"endTime":9370.291,"body":"The reading that I have done in it, I"},{"startTime":9370.291,"endTime":9371.375,"body":"haven't read the whole thing, but the"},{"startTime":9371.375,"endTime":9373.041,"body":"reading that I've done in it, it's"},{"startTime":9373.041,"endTime":9374.25,"body":"beautifully written as always."},{"startTime":9374.5,"endTime":9374.708,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":9375.166,"endTime":9376.333,"body":"And anyway, it will"},{"startTime":9376.333,"endTime":9379.166,"body":"provoke many important thoughts."},{"startTime":9379.708,"endTime":9382.166,"body":"Some of them you will have had a taste of"},{"startTime":9382.166,"endTime":9384.041,"body":"here on this podcast, but in any case,"},{"startTime":9384.041,"endTime":9385.458,"body":"thank you for joining me today."},{"startTime":9386.5,"endTime":9387.083,"body":"And you're welcome."},{"startTime":9387.541,"endTime":9389.666,"body":"And yeah, my philosophy on that by the"},{"startTime":9389.666,"endTime":9390.916,"body":"way, Bret is let friends"},{"startTime":9390.916,"endTime":9393.75,"body":"be wrong for disagreeing."},{"startTime":9393.75,"endTime":9394.416,"body":"Of course, said"},{"startTime":9394.416,"endTime":9395.791,"body":"friends think you're wrong."},{"startTime":9396.0,"endTime":9397.083,"body":"So you have to deal with that too."},{"startTime":9398.041,"endTime":9404.625,"body":"I mean, the process over which we argue"},{"startTime":9404.625,"endTime":9407.416,"body":"about who is wrong is how"},{"startTime":9407.416,"endTime":9409.041,"body":"we collectively get smarter."},{"startTime":9409.416,"endTime":9410.208,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":9410.208,"endTime":9410.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":9410.541,"endTime":9411.0,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":9411.333,"endTime":9413.166,"body":"That's the core of the truth, right?"},{"startTime":9413.708,"endTime":9414.958,"body":"It's a community process."},{"startTime":9414.958,"endTime":9415.208,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":9415.458,"endTime":9415.75,"body":"Hell yeah."},{"startTime":9416.0,"endTime":9416.583,"body":"Thanks for having me on, Bret."},{"startTime":9416.583,"endTime":9418.0,"body":"Thank you for joining me in this very"},{"startTime":9418.0,"endTime":9419.291,"body":"tiny version of the community"},{"startTime":9419.291,"endTime":9421.666,"body":"process and to everyone else."},{"startTime":9422.75,"endTime":9423.458,"body":"Thanks for joining us."}]}