4STRIPES COLLECTIVE
4STRIPES COLLECTIVE
Episode 7 - Cole Sirucek - Educated Mind, Tough Body
According to Cole Sirucek, you'll fall in love with jiu jitsu if you’re passionate about improving yourself. And you will most certainly will fall in love with Cole for his determination to change the world, and his pearls of wisdom on health, marriage, parenting and business.
Cole and his wife created DocDoc, a health-tech startup, after their infant daugther was suddenly diagnosed with a rare liver condition that required a transplant. Since that time DocDoc has grown into one of Asia’s largest doctor discovery and appointment reservation system, empowering thousands of patients to make data-driven healthcare decisions which are safe, transparent and fair.
In 2012, prior to DocDoc, MIT and Harvard graduated Cole and his partner founded Epic MMA Club in Hong Kong, which at the time was Asia’s largest mixed martial arts training center.
Cole has started his jiu jitsu journey since the mid 1990s. In this episode, he talks about his favourite memories along this journey, how to develop mental fortitude and deal with adversity, the challenges of building a martial arts brand in Asia, and his views on the most important values a parent can instil in their kids.
[inaudible]. Hey everyone. I'm JK founder of four stripes. We're serving martial arts and Jujitsu community in Hong Kong and rest of Asia through unique events, training and networking opportunities. Jujitsu is our passion, but it's the people that inspire us with their life stories. You be the referee. Welcome to the 4STRIPES Collective podcast. I'm your host Voon Lee. Join me as we explore the growing, Jujitsu and grappling community in Hong Kong, Asia, and beyond as our guests share their stories, inspirations, and hard won lessons on how to live in adventurous, authentic, and fulfilling life. Today my guest is cold search. Cole is an investor and entrepreneur with a background in private equity and investment management and degrees from MIT and Harvard University Colon. His wife, grace created their health tech startup doc doc. After their 90 day old daughter was suddenly diagnosed with a rare liver condition that required a transplant. Since that time, doc doc has grown into Asia's largest doctor discovery and appointment reservation system, empowering thousands of patients to make data-driven healthcare decisions, which are safe, transparent, and fair. Prior to doc, doc Cole was also the cofounder of epic MMA club, which at the time of its launch in Hong Kong in 2012 was Asia's largest mixed martial arts training center. Coles had a long history of Jujitsu since discovering the gentle art in the mid 1990s. We talk about his favorite memories along this journey, how to develop mental fortitude and deal with adversity, the challenges of building a martial arts brand in Asia, and his views on the most important values apparent can instill in their kids. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. So welcome to the podcast today. We have, we have
Speaker 2:cold sir, sir. Cheque welcome to the show. That's right. Thanks guys. Cole, you've actually had, uh, a long standing history with the art of Jujitsu, correct? Yeah, I mean, I've been in martial arts since, uh, five years old, so I'm 43 now, so I've trained martial arts weekly for, you know, what does that 30 I shows up about my math is, but 37 years of my life. And what did you start off with? I started off with a tie Kung Fu and then I got into moody tie and then I got into a uh, g condo. Okay. Uh, and then got into Jujitsu. Right. And then kind of didn't really tie in Jujitsu. Well I think what's interesting is that you started Jujitsu at a time cause a lot of people, especially here in Asia, they kind of have taken up Jujitsu later in their life and their late twenties or early thirties, you took it up when you are much younger. Correct. Yeah. Jitsu itself was also much younger. Yeah. 16 I mean you guys don't realize how much better it's gotten to learn Jujitsu as a non Brazilian in the last call it decade, decade, you know, 15 just even not even 15 years just, yeah, because I remember being a blue belt in the early nineties and there were no black belts that weren't resilient. Yeah. And it wasn't even clear if they were ever going to allow a non Brazilian to be a black belt. Well it wasn't even like they wouldn't even, there were whole sections of knowledge that they just didn't talk about. We didn't share, well you started almost a pre UFC one, right. So it would have[inaudible] UFC one as a purely Brazilian art form. Oh, it was a mystery thing. So there was this guy named Pedro Sauer who, yeah, I mean it was before, it was before hoist Gracie and UFC one and a, um, uh, this guy, Pedro Sauer had moved up to Salt Lake and, uh, he started teaching Jujitsu and I'd done a lot of wrestling in high school. Right. And so, um, some, some friends of mine said, let's go check this out. Yeah. And we went in there and it was just, it was just, you don't like, you don't realize how effective Jujitsu actually is. Um, you forget about it. Cause you know, when, like when we trained Jujitsu, we're training with other people that have trained before. But when you really train with someone who's never seen the art, you don't realize how easy it is, you know, dominant, dominating and how intimidating it actually is. Yes. Yeah. Um, did you have that classic kind of come to Jesus moment where you were the wrestler who came in? Oh yeah, I thought I was like that. I was like, guys submits you and I'm a tough, I'm a tough wrestler and a young high school guy, but in martial arts forever, let's see how good this is. And I just got lit up. It was like, um, uh, what's his name? A M oiler Gracie I think, said it really wants to said it very well. He said, um, I'm a shark. This is an ocean and you don't even know how to swim. Yeah. And it was like that. Like it was just, and after that I was, I was hooked. Yeah. I think Brazilian Jujitsu, so much fun. And you know, I haven't trained consistently the entire time. Uh, I really hurt my back when I was a four stripe blue belt, uh, training under Helson and, uh, I ruptured my l four l five and I actually went to, when I went to graduate school, I couldn't sit for a half hour without getting a migraine. Right. So I literally, for the first year of Grad School, ended up standing in the back of the classroom, uh, having to take notes. I couldn't sit down that long and I thought I'd permanently injured myself. Right. And it was interesting how my body just over time, my, my, my, my disks kind of, they, they, they, they, as you get older, your disks naturally compress a little and that takes off some of the pressure and it was that and a lot of rehab and yeah. You know, uh, there was this studio in Singapore s five years later called evolve. Right. And I walked in and I was the first student. Right. And they had just opened up and I was, so I remember walking in there and how skeptical I was. You had taken a full break from Jujitsu from, for at least five years. Did you follow the, uh, the sport at all during that time? I followed, I didn't follow the sport. I followed the UFC. Right. Pretty. Yeah. But I didn't, you know, no, even no g grappling a really, it was just starting to really take off at that point. Yeah. Um, you know, it was kind of interesting. You told some stories earlier on it, the revisiting them a little bit, but how you met like, you know, some fairly interesting early characters that you trained a little bit. Why Hawaii under Helson and you met BJ Penn. Oh, BJ Penn was there and Salo and uh, Salo Robero was, was that was, he was like this young up and coming black belt superstar. Yeah. And I watched BJ Penn go from white belt and you know, yeah. A bear Yoshida who actually, you know, went on. He was a real phenol, I trained a lot with Barrett actually. Uh, he was a female or age, right. Well maybe even a little bit younger, is that right? And then, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it was Barrett and it was BJ's brother and it was myself and maybe three or four other guys that were all that all trained together. Uh, Barrett was clearly the best. Um, but the thing about Barrett was, it was interesting. So he lived in the gym and he really, you know, he took the judo. Like, when you talk to g, like a really good judoka about judo, you'll, they'll say, no, it takes 10,000 throws. They'll just practice that same throw over and over and they'll just drill it and drill it. And really, you don't see that happening as much in Jujitsu bare. It was one of those guys that would do that. So you embraced the whole drilling and he would take, he would take a move, he'd watch it on a watch, a video. Cause this was a time when they were, they weren't really sharing, you know, it wasn't like Helson was, you know, openly sharing all the, his intimate secrets. Right. And so he went there, their earliest videos, you know, he would watch these videos and, and he would sit in there and he would just drill for six hours, literally six hours. He'd just sit with a couple of guys and just drill, drill, drill, drill, drill. And he got phenomenal really quickly and everyone kind of thought he was the phenom in Hawaii. And then, uh, um, BJ's older brother, uh, you know, she started talking about, hey, you know, my brother is a really good athlete and he's training and uh, wrestling. And I don't remember, I was like saying it was like San Diego state or, or it was some state college, but it wasn't like it wasn't a big wrestling program. Right. And he'd done that and then all of a sudden he was training with health and he came out and he was just really tough white belt. I remember rolling with him and then, um, he came back like three or four months later and he was a blue belt and basically at that point nobody in the gym could pass this card. Like it was just kind of mind boggling how quickly he got that good news. This is a gym full of some really good people. And what sort of insight did you have as to how he did it? Was it just that he was just a physically of a phenom or with assumptions about any learning process? I wish I could tell you that there was a lot. I actually think that, you know, his brother and I talked about this. I think he, um, I think he could do a move 10 times, 15 times and just own it. Just an intuitive fields owned it for what it should look like, just what it, what it should look like, how it fit in with the timing was, you know, so much at Jujitsu's actually timing. Yeah. It's that feel of the push and the pull and the weighing and the unwavering and the, and its, that was way more important than strength. And I think he had an, an an just an, an inherent feel for that, that even to this day I still have absolutely. You know, I still do very poorly. Yeah. You know, I just think he had that. And it's an interesting, I mean it's an interesting contrast even just in a gym where you had a guy like Barry Yoshida who embraced the idea that, you know, I need to drill this thousands of times. And once I do that I've got a master it. And then on the other side of the spectrum, you have someone who just has tuition. Barrett trained Jujitsu as hard and as long and as consistent as anybody in the world. Like that guy was just in the gym always. And what I understand after I left why's he didn't stop. Yeah. He left Helson sure. And he went over and trained with a, um, Egan and ensign annoy. Yes. Um, and uh, but my, my, my understanding is he never slowed down. But look at what, look, look what BJ did. BJ went from no name to this good white belt to this blue belt that was just had this phenomenal guard to all the sudden he's a purple belt and he's, he was winning big tournaments in Hawaii, even in the open division. And, and that was, there were some really good people in that. And then like a year later it was a brown belt. And then a year later he got his black belt the day of the Mundey halls and he won the tournament. I mean, and he was the first American. And so you can get good in their hearts, but there are a lot of examples of this. Actually I think it took, what was it, Marcella Garcia? I heard and I don't remember remember the exact, but I heard he got his black belt in like three years. I think. I also heard Kaia Tara, Tyra Terrell's also yours just got it incredibly quickly. And so I think some people absorb knowledge faster. Yeah. I don't think there's any, any mystery there. They're just better athletes and better timing and they absorb knowledge faster, better neuromuscular monkey see monkey do. Have you found any particular approach to learning that you think uh, is optimal when it comes to kind of learning Jujitsu? Yeah, I think so. Um, the best, I've been really fortunate. I've had some really good instructors. The best instructors start really small with you and they play really small game with you and they just, you know, it's like we're going to do close guard two on one grip and that's all we're going to do today for an hour and just work on two on one, two on one. How do you do two on one and, and then after you get all better at that, then they move to another piece and another piece and another piece until you get to a position. And then they let you just drill that for awhile and play with it. And then they come back to you and they start from that foundation. Like you've got to start somewhere. Yeah. You've got to start some position and then some little game inside that position and then build. Yeah. Right. And just keep coming back to that and going through that strain. If you don't do that, I think Jujitsu, it's really easy to develop islands of knowledge. Yeah. Right. And where you want to have is an integrated knowledge graph. And do you feel like that's translated into how you approach learning? I guess many new subjects that you've obviously encountered different things as[inaudible]? It's interesting. I'm not so much in that regard, but in terms of, in terms of resilience and grit, Jujitsu's really helped me. Like I was always kind of a stubborn asshole. Like I was kind of born that way. Sure. But my ability to endure pain and call it normal yeah. Was definitely increased because of Jujitsu. You know, like Jujitsu. Like now someone gets me in the mountain, they're really grinding on me. I'm like, that's kind of normal. You know, I'm not freaked out by it. Sure. And so if you notice, if you train a lot of Jujitsu, nothing actually, the dramatic peaks kind of vanish in your life. And that's lovely. Yeah. That's lovely. It's never that bad, you know, if that makes any sense. No, it makes a ton of sense. And knowing what I know about you, cause you've also done some ultra marathon events before in the past that you're the type of personality that kind of seeks out perhaps, uh, the grind and bracing. So, okay. That's a different, so a big part of my life is my wife throwing my ass off a cliff and then in me building a parachute on the way down. Sure. So the ultra marathon, so that was all her, oh, she took part in it as well. I, Ya know, didn't just take part in it. Yeah. So here's actually where you should take a little sidebar and describe a little bit about your wife. So grace is, I'm the most honest assessment of her and my relationship is I want to strangle her on a regular basis. And yet if I was to live a thousand lifetimes, I'd marry the same woman. Sure. So it's a, you know, it's a, it's a, you're any high quality marriage is complex. Sure. Like it has to be, right. I don't know how else to describe that, that the nature of that relationship in the, it's just complex. And so here's an example of me wanting to strangle my wife and yet loving her to death. So she was on this panel is kind of a woman leadership panel thing and it was, there was a woman who had done the goat, the, uh, uh, Sahara desert or a Gobi desert, um, March, yes. 250 kilometer foot race across the Gobi desert. And, uh, and so grace was talking about, um, her time at my wife went to West Point in the u s not United States military academy. And, and she, you know, her big sport there was judo and she was quite accomplished in it. She was a four time all American. Yeah, she was very, yeah, she was, was accomplished. And, and um, so she was talking about that, that was her speak on the panel and this other woman was talking about this race. And apparently grace comes home when we're lying in bed and grace says, Cole, you should have seen this race. She had heard about it. I mean it was difficult and she wanted to quit, but she made it through. And at this point I'm just engaged with my wife and, and grace is like, and you know, I know that if we could make it through a race like that, that that's a good test for us being able to make it through life. And I'm like, honey. Yeah, you're right. I hear your point. Aha. Aha. I'm going to bed now. But that was a good talk and I had no idea cause I'm an outdoors man. I grew up hiking in Idaho and so I know a lot about the outdoors. Uh, 250 kilometer foot rates across the Gobi desert is tough. Amy Is gnarly writers. It's really like, it's not, it's clearly people that are doing that are on the spectrum, as we were saying earlier. Well, I think people should also understand that this is not your typical foot race either. This is a self sufficient foot race. So you actually have to carry all your own food, everything, everything, everything or your medical care plan, but water, everything but water in a tent. That's right. That's right. So, so, uh, the next day she's still talking about this race and I'm like, that's really interesting, grace. You know? Uh, I know I'm happy to learn more about it and, and be supportive. And, and so then she sends me, she gets these videos, she sends out National Geographic and on this big expedited they on the race, we're watching it and there's these big strong grown men and they're sitting on the side crying and giving up. And I'm like, grace, you realize how gnarly this is? And she's like, yeah, yeah. You know, maybe it is too. And Harley. I'm like, okay, good. So then I'm a week later, I'm sitting at work and I get this bill, uh, I've learned on my credit card and she's just spent five,$10,000 to enroll us both in the race and pay for it. And, and she just sends me the email of the enrollment and she didn't even tell me what it costs, but I get it on my text and she says, Cole, if we can make it through this, then I think we can get married. Sure. This is a good sign that we can make it through life together. Some people go, some people who are part of our church go to their pastor and say, I have like a couples therapy counseling. And you guys went for a, you know, 250 Columbia amateur march through the, so she says to me, you've got to get us through this. Sure. Just, that's it. You got to get us through us. Now we're doing it. You've got to get us through it. Yeah. So I totally geek out, kind of like, you're, uh, you're wonderful set up here and on the microphones. I mean, I am like, I got to just geek out on everything. So I'm reading everything I can about adventure racing and, and training. And we go there and we're totally ready. Yeah. And the day before we go, one of the most important things to avoid blisters is having your feet like a baby's button. There can be no dry skin. So you really got to keep your feet real smooth so there's no friction in your socks. So I'm going into manicure in the, the, the woman, the woman doing the manicure starts laughing cause they never had a man get a manicure or a not a manicure or pedicure, pedicure. And, um, and she's like, we gotta do something with your toes. And so we till we paint my toes, like checkered flags, right? That's the, and, and so we get into the race. And about day three, I stub my toe on a rock really hard and my little toe, and I'm just limping into the med tent that night. And I take off my shoe and my toes purple and I'm just, and I, and the keep the toenails or no will, no, no, they did it. Those, those take time to come off. They don't just come off and, no, no, they didn't Yank it off. But yeah, and the, the, the, um, doctor says toenails are cute. Yeah. And he said, but you know, you see, I don't have any toenail Polish remover out here in the desert, so I can't tell. And he said, I think you broke your toe. And he said, so I've got good news and bad news. And I go, what's that? And he said, the good news, you're going to be fine. The bad news is it's gonna hurt like hell for the rest of the race. I'll never forget the next we got on the long day of the race. I'm out there and the date, the first day of the race, we're all sleeping in this tent. And all these, um, uh, adventure racers are, uh, are, are sitting there talking about, uh, they're, they've all done like four or five iron man or other races. And we're gracing, are feeling really, really, uh, undergone or uh, and sure they're talking about going on the blurb. I go, what's that? You know, you just kind of start crying and you just, and he was, you know, and they're all talking about their different experiences where they have gone on the blurb, you know, they're in the run of the, the, the, the last half of the iron man run and they just break down and trying not to quit. And they call it the blub. So I'm on my long march and just as the sun's going down and we still have another six or eight hours of high, I mean more than that, we got in at 4:00 AM that day. So yeah. So we still have a long way to go and all of a sudden I start going,
Speaker 1:cause I'm not quitting. Yeah, you'll have to kill me to get you to quit. But there I was, whimpering and grace is like toughen up. I'm trying doing it as a couple. Yeah, he's incredibly difficult. I uh, cause I did, I did the same race as you. I did it in Nepal, but I did team, I did a dozen of Paul race. You did the race and the planet Nepal racing the planet. Oh cool. And what did you think of it? Did you enjoy that? I loved it. Yeah. I love to for all the same reasons that you love it now when you look back. Yeah. But when you're doing it, yeah, it's a different thing. Did you go on the blurb? So every race has got its own
Speaker 2:complications. Yeah. Ours was that I, end of day one, 25% of the camp had caught a viral infection of the stomach. So that's throwing up people. It was coming up every which way. Oh, I bet. By Day two
Speaker 1:and day three and day four, by the time it came to day four, about 60% of the camp had it one way or another. And Oh Sophie, I bet dehydration was just so unbelievably hard to keep hydrated in that situation. I was kind of lucky in a way, and I caught it day one. So by the end of day one I kind of basically I threw up everything that I had. And Day two I had y went on with basically no food in my stock. So Day two was the hardest, but by the time day three came around, I thought I was getting better. The worst parts were the guys who were catching it at the end of the day long door than Dave on the Long March, I had a friend who basically went in every single field across Nepal for tea. Yeah. Maybe 17 hours every hour. That was quite difficult. But he got through, he got through it and it's amazing to see what people kind of get through. It really truly is.
Speaker 2:So the second time I cried on the Gobi desert, um, it was uh, about 1:00 PM on the long day. Yeah. And this end, and it was, I mean it was like 48 degrees Celsius. It was just baking. It was so hot outside. Your eyeballs hurt. Yeah. And, uh, I see this Japanese woman and this Japanese guy, and I think they're husband, wife couple. And the Japanese man is screaming at her. He's just, and I don't know what he says, can't speak Japanese, but[inaudible] and he's just going out here and just going at her and just going at her and she's going, no, just keeping the walking now. And I realized, cause grace speaks a little bit, he's trying to get her to quit. Oh sure. Because she is in her would sandals. Oh right. Because her feet aren't fitting and they still got 30 miles to go that day. 30 miles. Yeah. Right. And it's not, and she won't quit. Yeah. And it was so beautiful that I just started crying and I'll be damned. She finished. Yes. I, I 7:00 AM we got in at 4:00 AM and by the time I was kind of just kind of relaxing to kind of get to sleep was like seven ish. I'll be damned. They came across the line, her and her, her and her wooden sandals. Yeah. And that's that aspect of human nature. That's
Speaker 1:part of why Brazilian Jujitsu. So fun too. Yeah. What do you think of that, that is about it. You think Jujitsu. Do you think Jujitsu attracts people who are naturally predisposed to that, this idea, that ideal of seeking out, you know, so Hayne and grit and resilience? Or do you think it actually helps build that capacity in people to both?
Speaker 2:I think both. Um, I think one of the most important things for happiness. I gave this Ted speech about this, um, about why martial art, why I love martial arts so much. Um, martial arts makes you happy. Yeah. The community is a big deal. Yep. The community being around people and communing with them in a way that isn't about money and isn't about power and isn't about just how awful we can be to one another. It's just about, it's like a high end form of salsa dancing. Sure. I think that is really, I think that's what we grew up, we, we evolve to do as animals. Like if you watch, I have three, I have English bulldogs and when, and when you watch them play they role. Yeah. You know, they w the, the little one rolls to garden's pushing off with his feet and that, you know what I mean? And then the big ones trying to come in and bite him in the neck. I mean they're not actually, they're just playing. Sure. I think we as, as a species were designed to roll around and wrestle. Yeah. I think we were just, we were built for that. We were built to run, we were built to wrestle. We were built to be active in a communal way. You never meant or do you think we're also built, cause one of the interesting things that you're seeing nowadays obviously is um, kind of like the rise of, you know, various symptoms like depression, you know, alienation, isolation, obviously a bunch of things like social media doesn't really help with that. But also the fact that we live in a time where things are way easier than they've ever been. Right. And so coming back to this idea, do you think humans need to search out, you know, difficult challenges? Do you think that that is what kind of helped provide? So, I mean a really honest observation about myself, I have more of everything than I'll ever need. Yeah. And yet I spend a significant portion of my day feeling desperate to make something happen. Yeah. I mean, how messed up is that? Well, I think I have more of everything. I, my fridge has never empty. Yeah. I never don't have access to medical care. My daughter's never, my daughter doesn't never, it never doesn't have access to education. Sure. Right. I don't worry about power or, or I don't have everything or clothing or shelter from the elements. I have everything. I have an excess of everything. Yeah. And yet because people, I think deal, I think that the issue around that as much as anything else is that as we aggregate into larger communities, it becomes harder to find significance. Yes. I mean for me to be the best person in La in Jujitsu makes me one of the best in the entire planet. For me to be amazingly good at Jujitsu and Stanley, Idaho, it's relatively easy. Sure. So as our tribes get larger, yeah, we have a lot less significance. Cause we're always comparing ourselves to one another. Yeah. You look at sort of evolutionary biology and you know, I guess the idea that we're social primates, we're evolved to basically a dubby and basically small groups, tribes of up to a hundred 150 people and anything beyond that is basically something that's kind of beyond what our psychological limits are adapted to. Right. Your leadership
Speaker 1:structures at that point you start getting real weird. There's that one 52 is just the ability to kind of define, you know, what is your contribution to the tribe? What do you derive your own personal identity and meaning from your specific contribution within kind of like a hundred 150 people. It can be quite clear, right? Larger than that. Then it becomes, you know, much more difficult to really ascertain. And I think that's what contributes to it. A lot of this, as you say, you know, we have everything and yet people still have that evolutionary fight or flight response. Yeah, exactly. You know, we are not, uh, wanting for food and we're not under threat from predators. But at the same time, if you actually look at kind of what day two daily interaction forward is all levels, they don't seem to reflect that. Yeah. They just spike all the time because I think we're adapted to essentially, you know, threat response. That's so that's
Speaker 2:evolutions bitch. Yeah, right. It's always pushing us to be more right. And, and so, uh, yeah, I think that's a,
Speaker 1:um, I think it's complicated and I think it's interesting like coming back to your idea that you said about community, right? Because I think part of, uh, what's interesting about your background too was you moved to Asia. Uh, you are very successful investor. You're working with Tamasic, but the, you also were kind of a pioneer in kind of developing, you know, the idea behind mixed martial arts and Jujitsu by introducing, at least in Hong Kong, uh, epic MMA, which is kind of like the first major, I guess, premium. Um, how would you define it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, I look, I shouldn't, I'm with you. I, that was the thought process. I mean, I definitely, um, I feel like I got a lot of, I, I still to this day feel like I have some unfinished business there. Sure. Um, what did you see the initial opportunity was there and what was the market like buddy? I know. Okay. So with the exception of one type of person, there's one type of per, there's actually two types of people that really just cannot benefit or enjoy Jujitsu. The people that are just don't like are scared of anybody near them. I kind of just don't get near me, don't touch me, don't hold me, don't let phobes just that if you have a lot of that, you can't do Jujitsu, just never gonna work. And then the other ones are the ones. And these guys can sometimes work it out, but most often not the ones that have an ego that's so big that they can't make themselves small to begin learning. Right? So, so those are the two everyone else that I've ever seen that gets into Jujitsu, loves it. And, and I think that in the environment, I, my feel is that the environment in Singapore and, and just the actually all over Asia but, but particularly in the more developed markets, Singapore, Malaysia, Shanghai, Beijing, um, there was a, just a complete and utter absence, a physicality in there in people's lives. They didn't really have a lot of sports that they did, maybe a little basketball. Sure. But, and so I really thought there was a great market because martial arts has been in the blood out here for a very long time. Yeah. And, um, my thought process around epic was that,
Speaker 3:right.
Speaker 2:My thought process around epic was launching a world class gym with that kind of footfall. And that's the most that that street we were on where we were, has more traffic than any other place in the world on a daily basis. Absolutely true. And so with that kind of footfall, a gym light that would transform a lot of lives, do a lot of good for the world, I want to be a lot of fun as you put it in. Put it in context because I guess people in Asia understand like in Hong Kong, this is basically smack dab in the middle of the central business district, literally in the middle of central. Yeah. That would be equivalent. The most central place in most central place in the most central central business district. That would be equivalent of what? In New York or in London for example. Oh, it would be like, it would be like in Times Square. Yeah. It would be like, you know, right on the corner of Time Square. Sure. It would be. Um, right in the, I mean, I'm just trying to, I don't know London that well, but it would be probably right in the heart of Dilley or Piccadilly. It'd be right. It would be right at Piccadilly Square. Yeah. Or Piccadilly Circle. Yes. It's what it is. I mean, it would be right there on the corner there. Um, yeah, no, it was just, I mean, there in lies, I still to this, to this day, I mean, you know, epic had a very unfortunate ending and, and I wasn't there for the end of it. Um, my, my daughter needed a, a transplant, uh, about a year into owning about a year and a half into launching epic. Um, but she got sick about a little, even under a year of launching epic and um, so that, that required me to kind of make a, a graceful exit. Sure. But, um, that business model,
Speaker 3:yeah. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 2:it had big potential. Um, I think the issue there and, and I think the thing that, that we should have done better, if you're going to go as big in the flagship as we did, we needed to be ready to roll out six or seven more next year because that flagship place was never going to be super profitable. Yeah. Um, none of the flagship stores in any piece of real estate like that are sure. But it did a tremendous amount to build the brand, uh, for the gym. And it did a tremendous amount to build the sport in the, in, in, in this part of the world. We did a tremendous amount, actually. I know you have sort of mixed feelings about how it ended, but certainly from my perspective, like I know for a fact that it certainly changed a lot of people's lives as well. Introducing Jujitsu to, you know, a whole community of people, let's say we're in Hong Kong in particular would be kind of professionals, you know, people as you say, who are lacking physicality and the from it and you know, really opened the doors for, for them to actually kind of embrace something as well at that time. Kind of esoteric is that, well, you know what if you, um, life is, so, I'm 43 years old and I'm continually enamored with how short life really is. Sure. You got a lot. If you're going to be an entrepreneur, only do stuff that's cool. Yeah. Only, I mean there's, life is way too short to be like, you know, what do you do? I sell him sixteens yeah. Or I sell grenades or I just, I'm a merchant of death. Yes. Life is too short and I, every business is difficult. Yes. So life is too short to not do things that make a huge impact. And I agree with you, by the way, every time I go to Hong Kong, I can't walk down the street at all without seeing lots of people that are like coal man. That place was state. Dia Changed my life and their training and that's cool. And I feel like that made a huge impact and I'm super proud of what was built there. I would like to have, um, I would, yeah, I just would like to have seen it to its fruition and its potential and that's okay. You know what guys, not everything works. Life is early. I think you've like, you're based in Singapore now and I think you ever probably seeing that potential being fulfilled by a number of different, um, you know, companies and gyms out there that seems like it really is taking a big deal. I mean the fact that, you know, the UFC is opening performance institute and Shanghai one championship is doing the work that it's doing there. It definitely that you are early, uh, and basically cottoned on to a trend that you're actually seeing really accelerated right now. Yeah, I think so too. I, that's one of the hardest thing about being an entrepreneur is not seeing a really good value proposition. It's timing it correctly. Yeah. And I think we went really big. Yeah. So, um, yeah. W what did they say? A M
Speaker 3:uh,
Speaker 2:restraint is the best part of Valor, right? Or, or what, how does, how does that quote go? It's not, maybe if it's not restraint, it's the, um, I have to go back and look, but it's, it's it, the ability to take a deep breath and do things in a prudent way, yes. Is really important. I think we went to big with epic right out of the gate. Sure. I think that was the fundamental issue. But look, it left an indelible mark on, on fitness and mixed martial arts in, in Asia. Yeah. 20 years from now, people will still know who epic was. I'm sure that's true. Right. So, so, yeah, I think it was cool. Uh, I think it was cool. And I, and I don't regret anything that we did there. Yes. Um, I think it was cool. Well, you've got a very interesting entrepreneurship journey as well because the next step as you kind of alluded to earlier on, it was a lot more personal and kind of led to kind of what you're doing right now. Yeah. They're happy to speak a little bit more about that. Yeah, sure. So, um, so I was in epic, uh, and uh, um, my daughter was a a hundred days old and uh, uh, we were taking her in to do a checkup and I was actually launching a hedge fund at the time, uh, with another partner. And um, my, uh, I just come back from London and, uh, Ra. Yeah, this is, this is just so gnarly. Um, and I take her in to do a, a checkup this a hundred day checkup and the, the, the, the pediatrician says, Cole, she's jaundice. Since she shouldn't be jaundice, I go, okay, you need to put her into the blue light again. Like, I didn't think anything of it, but I, I could, I just, my, my spider sense is Kinda said something. He's a little too serious about this. And he says, I want you to go to the hospital right now and I want you to go get an ultrasound done. And so I go over there and I'm holding my daughter and my daughter literally fit from know the base of my wrist to my forearm, to my elbow. That's how small she was. And I'm holding her at the time. And the nurses doing the, as the k y jelly over on her stomach and they're doing the ultrasound with the wand and she's cooing and then all of a sudden the nurse starts crying. And I'm like, Oh shit. Not a great sign. No. And she's like, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And she's just crying and you know, she cleans up Aranda and I walk out of the room and she just burst into tears and I'm like, oh my God. So the next thing you know, I'm in this tiny room with no windows. I'm surrounded by surgeons and uh, they tell me that, um, my daughter's liver is failing and we need to immediately do this procedure. It's a huge operation called a[inaudible] operation. They basically cut the bottom 20% of the liver and they take a piece of her small intestine and they build a little trough. And the idea is maybe that will save the liver to start draining bile. This is a huge deal. Yeah. And it has about less than a 0.1% success rate. Right. Meaning that it almost always fails. It's just buys you a little time. Right? So for liver transplant, sure. Well, she's too young to have a liver transplant. No one's ever had one at that age. And um, so I thought she was totally healthy when I woke, when I came, when I, this that morning and by lunch I'm being told that her life has changed forever. Right. And so I'm asking the doctors, how many times have you done this? And the doctor says, I'm the head of the department. I'm good at my job. I say, White, the answer, what is this gonna cost? And he says, uh, are you insured? And I say, yeah. He says, don't worry, it's going to be really expensive. I'm like, again, not exactly. I was looking for a little more feedback and I say, you know, um, what are the longterm consequences of this? And the guy looks at me and he says, you don't have a choice. We got to do it tomorrow. Like that is the ultimate in negative consumer experience. Yeah. Complete absence of empowerment. Complete a, I felt so vulnerable. And then to add injury to insult, um, so grace being the smarter of the two of us called a a gentleman that was one of the top pediatric cardiac surgeons in, he is a friend of ours. We had for the Gobi Desert March, we'd raised a bunch of money from Tomasic and Medtronic and we launched the first pediatric cardiac surgery unit in Vietnam. Ah, okay. And so we took a bunch of surgeons from Singapore up there to train the surgeons in uh, in, uh, Vietnam. And, uh, it was a huge, we started this, we started a process and an exchange and that it even goes on today and it's been hugely successful in terms of like, you know, now[inaudible] that now that center is a center in Vietnam where all the kids go, that then the outcomes are really good and we're really proud of it. And Yeah. So the gentleman, the doctor's name was Dr Shanker and we called him and said, hey, this is going on. And he said, okay, I'll be right over. He literally comes running over and scrubs and he puts his arms around his, the doctors in the room weren't real happy and he came, put his arms around us and said, okay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Walks the side of the room, the door shuts. I'll never forget what he said. Cole, don't let anybody in that room touch your daughter. They're really not qualified. Yeah. This is very, very, very precarious situation. Yeah. We got to do a global search and find the right people. Yeah. And so, and it turned out that, that we needed to do this procedure promptly measured in weeks. We didn't have to do it measured in hours. Yeah. So they kind of gave you kind of, oh, straight up, straight up used car salesman, got to do it now, got buy now, buy now, buy now. Buy Now. Right. I couldn't believe it. And I felt so horrified by that. And then, so long story short, um, we did this major search, uh, you know, Sloan Sloan Kettering and Stanford and the Mayo Clinic and Boston children's and Yusef, and like all these places in the u s which I forgot who the right teams were. And the chairman of surgery at Stanford said, actually, the highest volume guys in the world are in Japan for, for pediatric live liver transplants. They have a higher higher incidents of biliary Atresia. Their, the procedure was invented there. I think that's where I'd go if it was me. Yeah. And you're already in that part of the world. Yeah. So we found, Dr Shanker introduced me to the founder of the live liver transplant, the inventor of the procedure. And, um, we flew to Kobe, Japan and we did the first procedure. It failed that it always fails basically. And then about a month later we did the transplant and I was the donor. Yup. So we flew the team in from Japan to Singapore to actually do the procedure. Yeah. Here's the nut of this and this is why we started doc doc when this was all done. So the team that we brought in was head and shoulders above anybody else. You know, this guy literally written the textbook on pediatric level, on live liver transplants in Japanese. They translated into English as the book they used everywhere. Sure. He was the highest volume. He stayed next to my daughter's bed for two weeks in the ICU. Yeah. He wouldn't let it, he wouldn't let a nurse, anybody give her any medication that he didn't first check. That's how that's, I mean I felt like I was walking into a sword fight with Yoda. Yeah. You as my partner. Yeah. Like I had the guy, thank God. And at the end of this, the total bill was 60% cheaper than what the team in Singapore at the other team had won. It really wasn't even close. Wow. And it was at that point that I realized that there is such an asymmetry of information in healthcare that this is massively impacted everyone's life, you know? And so my wife and I decided to start doc doc, and that's where we're, we're, you know, the world's first patient empowerment company. Right. And we partner with insurance companies to create this repository of medical information and this discovery engine that matches patients and doctors, um, based on the patient's unique needs and the doctor's unique expertise. Yeah. And, uh, um, yeah, I mean, every journey is a hard journey, but I'm real proud of what we're doing in that space. We've legitimately are changing the world. I think it's incredible. I think it seems, I mean, a lot of what you described about that situation is kind of everyone's worst nightmare, a parent's worst nightmare. Right. And, you know, uh, the aspect of having to make decision making under duress without any information, without any information. Uh, I, it's incredible what you're doing. We've talked dog, how many doctors are there now on the platform? 23,000. 23,000. That's pretty amazing. It's where, I mean, look, it's a building anything in, in, in healthcare is, and dealing with insurance as nightmarish. Yeah. Um, and that's why you gotta be proud of what you're doing. It's so important. Like it's so important to be doing things that you're proud of. Yeah. If you're not proud of the product you're selling, yes. Your life takes on a very cynical and nihilistic cue. Yes. And I, I just think that that's not worth any amount of money. I think what's interesting about doc doc too is this acknowledgement that there are people who are, there are essentially, there are levels to two games, right. And there are people who are truly masters of what they do, right? Oh yeah. Just like Jujitsu, just like you Jitsu. It's like, so, okay. I'm sorry. Please go ahead. So, um, I, this is a good one. So, uh, I ponder this one a lot. So do you know how Aristotle defines success? No. I, these are the exact, as is the exact definition, operating in one's core competency in a life that affords one scope. So if you, if you unpack that operating in one's core competency. So for Mike Tyson, it was a left hook in a life that affords one scope because he could do that left hook so well he could do anything else. He could drive any car you want. He could fly anywhere. He could travel in where he could eat anything, he can meet anybody, right? So if you do one thing really well with exceptional mastery and the world values that you're successful. And I think in the surgery world, just like in, in, in PR Demean surgeons are athletes. Yeah. Right. They just operated a very precise scale. Sure. So is there a difference between golfers on the PGA? I mean, they're all PGA certified, quote unquote. Yeah. But of course there's a difference. And if your, you know, if it's your daughter, you want tiger woods in the tee box. Yeah. You don't want a PGA certified pro. Yeah. There's a difference. And that's what doc doc's about. Sure. But this, this idea of identifying a master and being on the path to mastery, what do you think that, what do you think it takes to actually become a master in a particular field? The masters that, okay. So I've never done it, so I don't know. Right. Cause really, you know, those who don't, those who know do and those that can't do teach. So, um, I think you're selling yourself a little bit short.[inaudible] no, no. I've gotten good at things, but it's different. So being a scratch golfer is go to golf, right? Sure. But Tiger Woods beat you by 10 strokes every time you play. So depends on how you define mastery. Be getting a black belt in Jujitsu, make if you're a real black belt, you're legitimately tough human. Yeah. Right. You're legitimately good at Jujitsu, but you're not, I wouldn't call you a master. I mean like what does John, Donna, her say about black belts? It's, that's the beginning. Yeah. That's the beginning. That's where you basically are defined as a serious student. Yeah. I think that's probably about right. So what I have found about guy, people that are, that are true masters, they're really good at keeping it simple. They just keep things real simple. Like in their Jujitsu or, or in their painting or in their, in whatever they do. Well, there's just a natural simplicity to it and using, that's because uh, a recognition that what mastery is, is first a mastery of the fundamentals. So Bruce Lee said that a punch begins as a punch and then it becomes much more as a punch only to end up being a punch. Yeah. Meaning that when any idiot can throw their fist in the air and think that's a punch. Yeah. And then once you start realizing how hard it is to actually punch you, you find out that it's really difficult and you start thinking about how the f it starts in your ankle and then it moves up and it turns into your hip and the whole, you know, and you, you become almost Pratt paralysis. You almost get no state of paralysis about understanding how much there is. But when you practice, you get through that and then it turns into muscle memory again and you start throwing correct punches without thinking about them. I think there's a lot of that, but I think that at least in my own life, I look at my own Jujitsu and its limitations. I think it's stymied. In fact, it's stymied by the fact that I complicate things. You know, I think that the people that are really at Jujitsu flow and they flow because they feel, and I think, I think a lot. Yeah. And I think thinking is the enemy of flow. Sure. In Jujitsu in particular as a, as a is a good place for that to be relevant because it's a big complex game. I think what's interesting is, uh, that if you actually, even by kind of the definition that you, that you had, which I think is, yeah, I think you could probably argue one way or the other. I think a black belt relative to, you know, the best black belt in the world is probably not a master but black belt relative to 99% of the rest of the population. Of the world would certainly look like someone who has some master hours. Yes. Basically mastered something incredibly difficult. But I think what's interesting is even for the ones that you would, uh, you and I would clearly agree are true masters of what they are at their are to whatever it happened to do, would not self define themselves as masters. They would not even call themselves as masters. They would more and more often than not refer to themselves as a continuing student. And to me that kind of feels like the important thing is not to achieve mastery, but just to be continued to be on that path of mastery and never, I think that's true for sure. I mean the definition of stresses, things aren't going the way you want them to and anything you can't control. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that's being on that path of progressive achievement. Um, and you guys, you don't Tony Robins. Yep. So I love Tony Robbins. I'm a total Tony robins buff and I get, I get that he's cheesy. Anybody at least your giant with that. I've done that. Yeah. I've listened to all his and not all that, listen to a whole bunch of his tapes. I've been listening to Tony Robbins for 20 years. Sure. I think he's fantastic. And I think he's really right when he talks about growth and you know, you don't, if you successful people, the one thing they all have in common is they're always growing. Yeah. And if your, if you look at depression or you look at the majority or anxiety disorders, or you look at a lot of people that just aren't really happy, you can trace it back to they're not growing. Yeah. You know, as long as you're moving forward, it doesn't even matter if you're starting from a small base. As long as you're moving forward, tomorrow will be better than today and be, and that we need that psychologically. And I think Jujitsu helps with that. Yeah. You know, moving forward, even if it's slow matters. Yes. You know, I mean, I've trained Jujitsu now since 1994 and I sit and I'm a black belt. Sure. Right. But I'm looking forward. Yeah. And so I'm not no rush. And I love that fact. I really am not in a rush. Yeah. You know, my biggest nightmare in Jujitsu is that I get a black belt and I'm not really a black belt. Like I don't want to be an old man black belt. It doesn't actually, if I wave a flag, you know, you know as they say in the Middle East and Shela yes. When I wear a black belt I want it to matter. It's funny when I talked to other black belts is that um, is that when they achieve being a black belt, it's a little bit of like a let down because now they, that
Speaker 1:there is no more belt progression. There's no, you know, fixed like, oh I know how well I'm doing because there's another stripe, here's that, here's another color and now I'm just a black belt. Right. Just like every other black belt out there. Now the challenge is actually what type of black belt am I going to be. The challenge now is not progression but almost self-expression. Like what is it that I'm going to be about? And that seems to be like, you know, kind of like the threshold moment where, you know, people start differentiating themselves a little bit. There are people who kind of stick with the games that they, they're currently doing and you know, they dominate in their gym or whatever it happens to be. And then there are others who just continue, as you say, pursuing growth and kind of really just continuing being a perpetual student. Yeah,
Speaker 2:I mean, um, I think Jujitsu definitely gets more fun. Yeah. The more you do it, um, I think it's a lot more fun being a black belt, tapping out blue belts than it is being a blue belt, getting tapped by black belts. Like if I had to pick in that hierarchy, I think it's a lot more fun. Yeah. Uh, I don't know. Um, a big part of Jujitsu for me as I, uh, as I kind of move up is health. Yeah. It feels a lot more like I'm salsa dancing now. Yeah. And it does. And I'm fighting. Sure. And I, and I think that's really Nice, particularly as I get older, it becomes about health and flexibility. And, and less about being alpha and less about that. Um, and a lot more about teaching. I love teaching. It's, I, I just love it. Yeah. And I find that when I'm in Jujitsu, I'm always teaching. Sure. I mean, I'm rolling and learning, but then I'm teaching like, ah, you know, or I'm problem solving with somebody. Maybe that's a better way to say it. Ah, you know, right there that you should've been here. You know, I find that I'm half the time when I'm rolling, I'm thinking about the other person's position relative to my position and noticing their mistake. Um, as much as I am noticing how I capitalize on it. Sure. Um, but yeah, I mean, look, uh, at the end of the day, none of this matters. We're all dust, like when it really comes down to it. So I don't know if it really matters to be a world champion. Sure. But I think that it matters that you do your best and I think that it matters that you get a sense of, um, uh, that you feel good about yourself. Yeah. Uh, and good about your practice. I think that matters. Like self-esteem matters a lot and I think Jujitsu helps with that. You know, you become a much more gentle soul sure. Because you feel better about your place in the world. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean just as a physical activity, every, all the benefits that come along with doing that too on a daily basis. Sure. And but let's talk a little bit about parenting. Cause I think that's one of the things that also changes significantly as people older they become parents and that become, you basically become kind of like a slightly different person or at least your perspective shifts. Do you have kids? I have to, yeah. Okay. Eldest one also does Jujitsu's seven years old. A turning seven. Okay. Gray white belt just about to transition to gray black belt. Very cool. That's really very cool. No, I mean that it's one of the things I've found most interesting just about myself and just my relationship to Jujitsu too, is just looking at, ah, what an interesting vehicle this is for learning and for teaching and for instilling kind of certain things, certain values, especially to kind of a young formative mind like, uh, like a child actually.
Speaker 2:So brush, pseudo, mm or Bushido if I'm saying it correctly. A M I think is a wonderful basic premise for living your life and the basic worldview. Describe Machino Bushido it's the Japanese is the way of the Samurai. So it's, you know, one part zen and about zen simplicity. It's one part. Um, uh, well I guess, okay. So the way the Samurai is about, there's a couple of different things. So there's a, a strong sense of um, letting go of all fear because, and that really stems from duty. So you have a duty to uphold a, the honor of your master. You have a duty to defend the defenseless and, and the only way you can really fulfill that duty is by letting go of your fear of self preservation. So you can't be a good sword fighter if you're worried about being cut. Yup. And so, uh, the first step of that is that daily contemplation of death and to perceive yourself as already dead. Yeah. Because then that only then can you really be brave. So that's, that's one element of it. I think. Um, I think the other element of, uh, the, the, the focus on simplicity and elegance, you know, so the, the Japanese tea ceremony is an example of it or the way in which they trained me. They invented Jujitsu, the technical elements of Jujitsu. I mean that's, you have a hard time getting away from the way of the Samurai, uh, if you're studying Jujitsu, cause a lot of this came from there. Yeah. I mean, a huge part of it, frankly, you know, we like to believe that the Brazilians invented Jujitsu, or at least modern Jujitsu. But if you go back and actually start looking at a lot of the, a lot of these moves we've reinvented. Yeah. They have already kind of been there. Yeah. And if you talk to old school, Brazilian goes over like, Ya know, we were always doing deli Hiva just didn't call it Deli Heva we were always, you know, half guard is, you know, yes. It wasn't quite the position that it is now, but you know it and that's just in our lifetimes and realize this stuff's a thought over thousands of years old. Yeah. So when you really kind of dig into into it,
Speaker 1:if stuff comes in with fads as well. Right. And you know, even within
Speaker 2:kind of Japanese culture, they are fads around kind of new Aza and kind of dropping it back off. So I would not be surprised that there's the kind of nothing new under the sun really. I mean, or very little. Yeah. Very little. Yeah. I've heard the electric chair was no[inaudible] you're not up to date on the nomenclature so far. Not Up to date.[inaudible] any holes from your electric chairs, your mission controls, you know, crazy. So yeah, recently I rolled with someone who's really good with legs. Yeah. Small guy. I was amazed at how he destroyed me. Sure. I was amazed at people that were really good at bare and Bolo and people that are really good at leg locks. Yeah. That game is a very, very different game. Oh yeah. Like, I mean, I felt like I really felt like rolling with him. I was like a white belt. I'm like, wow. Like I'm just not prepared. You know, I, I'm just not fundamentally prepared to deal with this. You've been ignoring 50% of the human body. That's true for 20 years. Oh yeah. I know it's very true, but that's the beauty of it. Right. So I mean, there's so much more to learn and, and um, yeah. To stay injury free. Yes. And continue to train is something that I want to do for a long time. Well, actually, let's, let's finish off on that topic. So, you know, I'm kind of an hour by this idea of like compound effects, right? Yeah, I agree. And it's quite easy to understand, although it's hard to kind of, uh, have the discipline to enforce, but you know, people recognize that there are, you know, negative things that people do in their life but have very small consequences in the short term, but they have compound effects that could mean the big difference in terms of your quality of life, you know, towards the end in 20 or 30 years, whether it's smoking or drinking, not getting enough sleep, carrying too much weight or fat or being, you know, unhealthy. So on the flip side, what do you, what are the kind of positive compound effects that you feel that you are kind of now putting in place for yourself, for your family that you think will kind of enhance your quality of life as you go along?
Speaker 3:Um, there's a bunch, there's a bunch. Um, uh,[inaudible]
Speaker 2:my family values, education. Hmm. We're all the whole family. We're all always reading books and talking about the books that we're reading. There's a compounded F and, and uh, I make a real effort with my daughter to try to make sure that she's integrating the knowledge that she's acquiring into, into other topics. Yeah. So if we're going to study geology, we start talking about volcanology and how that plays into biology. Sure. And evolutionary biology cause they all tie it right. Everything's connected. Yeah. So I think there's a huge amount of value in, in, in making a real effort to learn. Yeah. And to really focus on learning. I think that's really an actually of a very important idea. Yeah. I mean it falls onto your kind of like, uh, identification of the growth mindset that comes, you know, and that's kind of distilled while you do Jujitsu that you embrace that kind of centrality. The second thing is I think it's really important to live beneath your means. Hmm. I don't care how much money you have live beneath it. Yeah. No matter how much money you make, spend less than what you make. You sit in that margin of safety. Right. Just, it's just a, the more that you, the more you have, I think the stoics have got this right where they talk about, you know, the more you get, the more you have, the more you need. Yeah. And it's, it's OK to have a lot, but it's not okay to need a lot, you know. So with my daughter, I've got two basic ideas that are, so again, as you get older, one of the realizations I'm coming to is how little, how little time and how little impelled little room. You really have to make a real impact in the list, right. If you do one thing and it makes a big impact, that's a lot. That's more than almost everybody in the world. Yeah. Right. Most people, when they die, their name and what they did in the earth very quickly vanishes. Sure. So with my daughter, I've got two ideas that I, I, the other more important than anything else that I want to instill in her. The first is self-esteem. It's very important to me that she feels good about herself. I will trade almost anything else I can give her for self-esteem. Yeah, the second. But using that more important for girls than for boys. I only have a girl. Sure. But if I had a boy, I had said the same thing. I think as a parent I want my daughter or my son to feel good about themselves fundamentally good. And the second thing, which is related to the first is I want to maximize self-esteem and I want to maximize adversity. Yeah. I want to watch my daughter hit the asphalt a bunch in front of me cause I know I can pick her up because I won't always be there for her. And I wanna make sure she knows how to pick herself up for sure. And, and so those, you know, those two issues, I think Jujitsu does a lot of that. Yes. Because you can't get good unless you get tapped a lot. And if you're worried about being tapped, then your f your ego is getting in the way of your growth. Yes. And so I do that with my daughter in all things in her life and that's what I'm trying to give her. If I can just give her that, that's more important than everything else. She'll figure everything else out in her own way, in her own time. I think for Jujitsu, for kids, I mean, I'm a huge proponent of it, obviously, but for that specific point, I agree with you 100% because I think it's really interesting that you can essentially have this kind of controlled atmosphere, right? Where you can experiment with these ideas of resilience and adversity, but where the consequences are completely, you know, bounded, right? Yeah. And you kind of just, you can literally do it on a daily basis and then they can kind of extrapolate from that. Hopefully bring that out into other parts of their life. They can just learn by analogy. So I think it's super important. Cool. So I think that's a great conversation. Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate your time. Thank guys. Thank you. Take care.