"Bullied but Not Broken: Finding Strength, Hope, and Identity in Christ"

In this powerful episode of Soaring in Health & Wellness, Dr. Steve Wells welcomes his brother, David Wells, nationally recognized anti-bullying speaker, musician, and host of The Bully Resistance Show. Together, they explore the difficult but important question: Are there any winners when it comes to bullying?

Drawing from personal experiences, research, and years of working with students, David shares insights into the different forms of bullying—including verbal, social, physical, and cyberbullying—and the lasting impact they can have on victims, bullies, and bystanders alike. This eye-opening conversation offers practical encouragement for parents, educators, and students while emphasizing the importance of engagement, compassion, confidence, and faith in overcoming adversity. Join us as we discuss how we can work together to create safer, healthier, and more supportive communities for the next generation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Soaring in Health and Wellness is brought to you by Mountaineer Chiropractic, your soft tissue specialist, located at 2108 Camden Avenue, Suite D, Parkersburg, West Virginia. For more information, go online to MountaineerCairo.com. If you'd like to be a sponsor or help support Soaring in Health and Wellness Podcast, please go online to Eaglesways Ministries.org and select patron page in the top menu bar. Hello, and thank you for listening to Soaring in Health and Wellness with Dr. Steve Wells. Dr. Wells is a chiropractic physician with a passion to help individuals reach new levels in health and wellness. He has been involved in the health and wellness field for over 30 years. Dr. Wells received his Bachelor of Science degree from Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma, with an emphasis in health and exercise science. He received his second Bachelor of Science degree in general sciences, along with his Doctor of Chiropractic degree with honors from Palmer College of Chiropractic in Davenport, Iowa. Soaring in Health and Wellness is a tool to help educate individuals reach new levels in health and wellness and a passion to live with a sense of purpose and vitality. Dr. Wells and his guests, ranging from doctors from all areas of healthcare, to educators, nurses, personal trainers, counselors, and pastors, will discuss and inform you on how to improve all dimensions of wellness from a biblical worldview perspective with one goal in mind: seeing you soar towards optimal health and wellness. If you're ready, let's get started with today's program with your host, Dr. Steve Wells.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Welcome to Soaring in Health and Wellness. Today's topic is Are there any winners when it comes to bullying? Today's guest is David Wells. You can go to his website, www.davebond.org. David is the CEO of the Chocolate Jazz Foundation 501c3. He is endorsed by Conan Selmer as a national performer. David was a nominee for the 51st Grammy. He is a concert promoter in Nashville, Tennessee, and is the producer and host of his individual podcast, The Bully Resistance Show with David Wells. For the past 18 years, he has traveled across the United States as a full-time smooth jazz musician. In the last seven of those 18 years, he has developed his life in going into the whole school system at every level and educating children on bullying and the repercations that bullying has. But also, most importantly, Dave is my brother. So welcome, Dave.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Now this is a that was a good introduction.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Can you read that again? I tell you, to my ears. Well, this is pretty this is pretty funny because I tell you when Dave, I asked Dave to send me a um three to five sitting um bio, he sends me two paragraphs.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

No, I no, I sent you the shortest one I have.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

The shortest one you have? Well, I tell you what, um it's I didn't ask Dave to come on our show uh just because he's my brother, but um pretty much what he does, uh Dave basically um spends a lot of time on the road full-time, not only uh ministering, but also going into the school system. And so he uh actually speaks to the students on anti-bullying, and that is today's topic. So, Dave, uh I tell you what, as far as the school system, how did this all come about?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Um matter of fact, I had an interview uh today with the newspaper, and that was exactly the same question she asked. You guys have been talking. Um no, she um I actually before I went into uh doing a lot of bullying assemblies, I was um doing a lot of um going to the schools doing clinics uh and focusing on the music program. And um and there was a there was a principal that came to me uh a few years back and and said, um, you know, we're having some issues at our school, and uh do you know anybody that uh uh can do an assembly on bullying or talk about bullying? And uh I said, Well, I can get back to you and think. So I I was thinking for two or three days about doing it, you know, thinking about who I can talk to, and and I'm thinking, well, you know, I I might be able to do this, and uh because I've I've experienced bullying on both on both sides, and um, and then of course Brecon, uh, she was bullied in high school. And uh so anyway, I contacted him and um and uh he said, well, yeah, sure. And so I've been doing it for I'm thinking maybe four years now. Four years? Four or five years.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

All right. Is it pretty easy to get into the school system?

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Uh you um no, not really. I it's it's hard. I think and the reason why it's it's not it's not uh it's a lot easier now than it was when I first started. Uh because they they really wanted to know, they wanted to see a lot of videos. Can we see a video of you in action? Or and and still to this day I don't have videos. I mean I have if you go on my website, I have these references, I have pictures and everything else and phone numbers, and they can call them, you know. And um, but I was I was talking with uh the person at the newspaper and and uh she asked me, you know, pretty much the same questions, is it hard to get in? Um right now it it it might be a little r tougher because bullying has been around for so many years, and it seems like the the principals, the teachers have been bombarded by kids saying they've been bullied or parents coming to their office and saying, you know, fighting against this bullying the whole time. So they're probably getting really tired of the bullying, the word bullying, you know. And um, so that's the only that's the really the only uh thing I've heard from a few principals. They've asked me instead of doing bullying, can you do something like being kind, you know, and and try to maybe mention bullying.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

So Wow. I tell you so the really the the definition of bullying um varies. So basically, as far as what is bullying.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Well, I tell you, um before we um get started type, I want to basically a lot of the information on this podcast is coming from uh two major sources. If you want to go ahead and uh use it as a reference and check it out, uh you can go to stopbullying.gov or you can go to psychological effects of bullying on kids and teens by Ann Steele. And uh so basically, as far as the bullying and this again, this is by stopbullying.gov is basically it's an unwanted aggressive behavior amongst school-aged children that involves a real perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated or has the potential to be repeated over time. And a lot of times they say is that in order to be considered bullying, the behavior must be aggressive and include an imbalance of power. Kids who bully use their power, such as physical strength, access to embarrassing information or popularity to control or harm others. Power imbalances can change over time and in different situations, even if they involve the same person. And then number two is repetition. Bullying behaviors happen more than once or have the potential to happen more than once. So bullying includes actions such as making threats, spreading rumors, attacking someone physically or verbally, and excluding someone from a group or purpose.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

See, you know, um, and that's I mean, that's all true, but I think where the um they're having major issues um is at elementary elementary schools.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Is that the biggest?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

And yeah, and and and it's that's not where the the m most of the problems, bullying problems are. The mo most of the bullying problems really are in the middle school and then going up to maybe ninth, tenth grade, and then they sort of level out. In the elementary schools, what they're the teachers are fighting against is that these little kids, though uh somebody will call a someone a name one time, and they'll go up to the teacher and say, uh Mr. So and so, uh, he called me a name, he's bullying me, you know, and so the the elementary kids are trying to figure out um you know what bullying is, and then teachers are trying to explain what bullying is. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 7:56

So Yeah, you had mentioned when you introduced your uh came into uh first part of our program, you talked about you were a bully and then also you've been bullied. If you could share what it was.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

I don't know if I I don't know if I said that.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

You know what was funny because I think you heard it.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

I had I had uh I had breakfast with mom and dad, you know, like a couple mornings ago. And uh I was telling that, you know, we get together, the boys get together for lunch and and everything else, and then you and Michael said that then I'm a bully. You know, I mean I'm not a bully. Well, you know, now there's a thing. Then listen, listen, hear me out. So the what we what it is is that you know, you hear people say I'm just picking on or I'm teasing. It's a bullying, it's like you said, it's repetition. You know. So let me answer your question. So I was thinking about this ever since you said that uh, you know, I was a bully. Now in elementary school, I it was only a one-time thing. You know, I mean the I I I um from school I would walk down, bright walk behind this one kid in elementary school, I don't know, third, fourth grade, pfft, and uh until until he fought back and it was over. You know, and then there was one time where um oh one time, you know, Billy, you know, uh he would he wanted to go home, you know, and I just sat on the curb. Mom's even mom said all I did was I sat on the curb and uh I said Billy and and uh uh he would turn back around, he's come and sit down, and then he and then he would say, Can I leave? And then I he would walk off real slowly. I said, Billy, and you know, and so but that's not bullying, that's that's picking on teasing. Because these are my friends, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Well, I tell you what I'm um as far as you are in jiu-jitsu, and you seem to be doing quite a bit uh with kids program. Actually, you you sent out a post so forth on that kids program is actually teaching kids jujitsu and so forth. And I tell you what, from the first post that you sent, and then the recent post you sent, it seemed like there's more kids getting involved in jujitsu. Right. And are you using that as more of an anti bullying, you know, standing up for themselves?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Um for people that don't know what jujitsu it jujitsu is, it's a it's a martial art that is developed for younger, smaller individuals to defend themselves against larger, stronger guys. And it was all about leveraging, it's not about any punching or kicking or anything else. When I do uh I think this um bullies can pick up on kids that um have low they they can they can pick up on somebody walking down the hallway with no confidence with their head down, and they can just, you know, and they have a you know, I mean they're just prone. But the kids that don't have any confidence are probably more prone to get bullied than you know, than kids that have confidence. And and I'm I'm going, I'm telling you based on experience and what I talk with these kids about and everything else, because a lot of these teachers, uh I mean a lot of these parents, they actually tell me that their kids are being bullied. And and uh when I when I'm doing class or anything else, I might go ahead and pull them aside and we'll talk about school, we'll talk about what's happening in school and everything else. And uh, but I do relate, I I didn't that like the last maybe six weeks before school actually started, I started talking about bullying. I started um doing different techniques in case you know, if if a bully gets on top of you, what do you do? You know what I mean? So I and I think this, I'm not saying that jujitsu is is for all the kids. I think that uh the biggest uh thing that uh that I would recommend is for their kids to be involved in a a program, a sport, uh martial arts, just to be around friends that have common you know ground as they are. But um now listen, I I want you to know my wife tells me I have ADHD. So I'll go ahead and talk and then I'll get in totally different.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Okay, we're thinking we're trying to keep you straight. But we have somebody to edit this. Anyway. Well, I tell you what, as far as um we were talking earlier before the sh the show started that there's different types of bullying, so forth. And um those different types of bullying basically are verbal bullying, right? Which is basically saying or writing mean things. Uh that can include teasing. Billy, Billy. No, that's Billy's name. Okay, name calling, inappropriate sexual comments, taunting, threatening to cause harm. And then you have social bullying, sometimes referred to as relational bullying, involves hurting someone's reputation or relationships. Social bullying can include leaving someone out on purpose, telling other children not to be friends with someone, spreading rumors about someone, embarrassing someone in public. I tell you, I just heard a story um just this past week. It was a patient of mine, uh, her daughter, it's like that, is going to a private school, Christian school in the area, and uh she is going into kindergarten, not first grade, not high school, kindergarten, and so forth. And um, and so the class size basically is anywhere between nine to ten per teacher, small class. But anyway, she was explaining the fact that um, you know, again, I remember when the days taking our kids to school and um them crying and so forth, but the fact is is that um she's a new student. You know, all these kids have been in preschool together. So you had this new student student who's excited about coming to school, but then is not accepted by her classmates. And so a lot of times she's by herself. And we're talking about kindergarten. I mean, I just when she was telling me the story and so forth, it breaks my heart like that, hearing that, you know, I mean, you know, you're excited about going to kindergarten, you know, you're gonna play and meet friends, and um but anyway, and she said that she was basically at a table and she was more or less trying to the mother was trying to start a conversation, you know, with one of the parents so forth. About her kids. No, not about her kids, just everyday life, you know, it's like I just start a conversation, boom, you know, and uh was totally ignored. And you know, the thing is I don't think people really realize that what you're doing as an adult, you're sending an example to your children how to respond, how to relate. So actually you can start at home unintentionally, but then you can see kind of as far as progress to the child.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Yeah, I've I've had I've had um on my podcast, I've had several uh people that would tell me either on on the phone or or off the phone that they feel like the parents um have a big effect on if they're bullied or if they're bullying or if they are a bully or not. You know, because what they see at home is what they'll do at at the at school. But you know, not to get on on a different uh topic, but you mentioned social bullying. Um I've been uh the I I was talking with somebody about um in the music field and asking if if there was any social bullying in in entertainment or in the music, you know, by record labels, by promoters, or anything else. And um there's just bullying everywhere. Matter of fact, uh there's a remember John Reynolds, you know, he's a chaplain at the uh at a big um independent living nursing home slash nursing home. And uh the last time I was up there, we were having lunch, and uh he says, Listen, I gotta go. I said, What's what's the hurry? He goes, Well, we we're having a big program on bullying. And he smiled. I said, I said, Oh, and I'm thinking to myself, oh, it must be the you know, the employees bullying the residents. That wasn't the case. It's it's the residents bullying other residents, and they have a big issue, you know. Oh my gosh. So there's like you said, the yeah, there is verbal bullying, physical bullying, and then social bullying.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Right. And then also and as far as the you know, again, you mentioned the physical bullying. Uh basically, you know, as far as what the article basically is, bullying can occur pretty much anywhere. And I tell you, as far as I know we're kind of spending more time on school bullying because it's that time of the year, you know, school opens up, and that's why we had you, David, come up uh so early. And actually, this is our first um podcast we've had, you know, as far as you know, since the first season we had. So you're our first guy. But as far as um, you know, there's um workplace bullying, so forth. Oh yeah. And um that I I've I've experienced that, I've seen that, and it is so uh detrimental, it's like that. And uh I just you know, your heart just goes out, you know, uh, why do people intend to hurt someone so viciously, whether it be just kind of not letting them be apart or just kind of writing them based on, you know, sonority, superiority, whatever, and so forth. But um, as far as the you know, not only does the bullying occur during or after school hours, but they also say it's most reported bullying happens in the school building. And you were talking about places in the school building.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

And well, they they I was reading online somewhere. You're gonna see so many different statistics about, you know, bullying and and where it happens and how many kids that don't go to school a day that uh are afraid of being bullied, uh, you know, but um they they say that most of the bullying um happens like in the hallways and then in the bathrooms, um, and then on the playground. Those like are the three common places that bullying happens, you know. But um and I I'm still I'm still learning. But I I guess m the the problem that that I'm having is they say that 85% of all bullying that takes place there's no intervention. Wow. You know, which means when I first heard that, Steve, I I was thinking, well, um, does that mean um obviously the teachers or the principals aren't doing their thing, they're not intervening. Well, it's a combination of the teachers, the the principals, the parents, the the the bullies' parents. It's even it's even to the point where where kids at witness bullying, they're not they don't know what to do. I mean they they see something happening that's not a good thing, but see, it's you know how things happen so quick, and you're thinking, and you just don't know what to do, and then then like five minutes after or ten minutes after you're thinking, I should have said this or I should have done something, you know?

SPEAKER_02 18:24

So Well, I tell you we're gonna talk a little bit about that later on. But uh the thing I want to spend a little bit of time on um now is the fourth type of bullying, and that's cyberbullying. And um, those who do not know what cyberbullying is, and I'm sure there's people out there who do not know, uh, but basically cyberbullying is bullying that takes place over digital devices like cell phones, computers, and tablets. Cyberbullying can occur through SMS, which basically are short message services such as text messaging, uh, apps, or online and social media, forums or gaming where people can view, participate in, or share content. Cyberbullying includes sending, posting, or sharing negative, harmful, false, or mean content about someone else. It can include sharing personal or private information about someone else causing embarrassment or humiliation. And some cyberbullying crosses the line into unlawful or criminal behavior. And that's the thing is you, if you're uh, and there are laws in some states about cyberbullying and so forth, uh, but the most common places where cyberbullying occurs are basically social media, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter, and like I said, text messaging, instant messaging, emails. And that's the thing is is these kid, these kids today have these iPhones. And I don't know when my children got their iPhone. I think it was probably maybe their last year in middle school. But are you seeing in the elementary schools or kids have iPhones that young of age or middle school?

SPEAKER_01 19:58

No, I um middle school, definitely middle school. But I I don't know if there's I uh see, I don't know if kids have to keep their phones in their lockers or something. Um I'm not really familiar with with all that.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

I'd say but you know, but the the big the biggest thing that we find out is that um with the thing on social media, um there's colleges and also coaches. You really need to be careful on what you post on Facebook or social media because coaches and colleges can actually get access to your online reputation, see what type of person you are, which could actually prevent you from actually. Well, basically, I mean, again, it you go it talks about photos, posts, you know, content shared by individuals. Um, you know, you share it online, both their personal content as well as any negative, mean or hurtful content creates a kind of a permanent public record of their views, activities, or behavior. That public record can be thought of as online reputation, uh, which is accessible to schools, employers, colleges, clubs, and others who may be researching an individual now or in the future. So cyberbullying can harm the online reputation of everyone involved, not just the person being bullied, but those doing the bullying or participating in it. I know we had a um coach and the kids were playing uh travel baseball and so forth, and he had given them a pretty big warning as far as um you need to be careful what you put on social media because I tell you what, you know, that's gonna affect either playing time or if you're even involved in our program, because we don't want some type of bad reputation online where that's my player and this is what he's posting, or this is you know the rude shots, the pictures, things like that. So they can get access to it.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

And so um well, there's also with uh employers, I mean, people getting fired because of what they put on uh on social media. You know, I've y this is what's funny. Um I think uh cyberbullying could probably be the most uh effective damaging Um more so than verbal or physical bullying. Physical bullying, it's like uh, you know, you hit each other and and you and you, you know, go on your way. I think you know, when kids ri are getting being cyberbullied, they realize that you know it's everybody has seen that. Who knows? A hundred people have seen it. It's just not one-on-one when somebody's actually bullying somebody. So I I it I think it has a bigger impact. Cyberbullying has a I think so.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

I um you know, you this great point that you mentioned because you know, if with cyberbullying it can be very persistent. Right. Okay. You cannot you cannot turn it off. You know, it's there 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so forth. Whereas if like we were saying, if if you're doing physical or verbal bullying, you know, that child has a chance to get away from it. You know, but with cyberbullying, uh-uh. You get on that and that's there 24 hours a day and so forth. And also it's pretty much permanent, too. Right, you know, right? Um, and also uh cyberbullying is basically hard for uh parents, teachers to notice, so forth. So I tell you, it's um it's it's it's it's a threat and it's very harming. Um but they say the statistics as far as with cyberbullying uh basically is um and this comes from the 2017 School Crime Supplement, which is a Natars National Center for Education Statistics and Bureau of Justice, indicates that among students ages 12 to 18 who reported being bullied at school during the school year, 15% were bullied online or by text. And it says 2017 youth risk behavior surveillance system, 14.9% of high school students were electronically bullied in the 12 month prior to that survey.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

And see, I think I don't know. I just I I think that's bowling is is worse than 15%. It seems like 15%.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Yeah, I think so. Well, that's 12 months prior to the survey.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Because I mean kids are on the phones all the time.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Yeah, they are stuck there. But I tell you what, what we're gonna do, we're basically gonna go ahead and take a break. And when we come back in the second part of our podcast, we're gonna be talking about the effects of bowling.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Soaring in health and wellness is brought to you by Mountaineer Chiropractic, your soft tissue specialist, located at 2108 Camden Avenue, Suite D, Parkersburg, West Virginia. For more information, go online to mountaineerchiro.com. If you'd like to be a sponsor or help support Soaring in Health and Wellness Podcast, please go online to Eaglesways Ministries.org and select patron page in the top menu bar.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Welcome back to Soaring in Health and Wellness. Today's topic is are there any winners when it comes to bullying with our special guest, David Wells? Special guests? That's right, special guest, David Wells. And we've been actually uh the first part of the program, we were pretty much discussing as far as what bullying, types of bullying uh is. And uh what we're gonna discuss this second part is pretty much the effects of bullying. And um I tell you what, if you don't think there's any effects on bullying, you're totally mistaken. Um the basically the main aspect of bullying is it has a real emotional and psychological impact. And it really depends on the uh situation, and it basically could hurt, humiliate, expose, harass, or harm. And this comes from the psychological effects of bullying on kids and teens by Ann Steele. Uh we talked about are there any winners when it comes to bullying? Bullying can affect everyone, those who are bullied, those who bully, and those who witness bullying. Uh, bullying is linked to many negative outcomes, including impacts on mental health, substance use, and suicide. Uh, the month of September is the National Month for Suicide Awareness. And so one of the reasons we're also talking about bullying, because this is a real issue. And then October is uh bullying month awareness. Is it bullying month?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Well, maybe we can just rerun this one in October. But anyway, it's pretty much important to talk to kids to determine whether bullying or something else is a concern. And again, if you hit missed the first part, David basically goes into our school system at every level elementary, middle school, and high school, and basically takes this talent uh that the Lord's blessed him with. Uh, as far as uh he is a uh uh jazz uh musician. Uh he's nominee for a Grammy.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

I was I was actually a nominee for a Grammy. Go ahead. Nomine.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Okay, that's right. You're not a loser, Dave. You're you're very good at what you do. I appreciate it. But anyway, so basically, as far as we're gonna start off again, we're gonna talk about each of the groups. We're gonna talk about the kids who are bullied first, then we'll go to the bully, and then we'll go to the people who basically bystand and observe and watch the other children or person get bullied. And again, this can happen anywhere from the workplace to the school system. But since Dave goes into the school system, uh, we're using his knowledge and also um basically hitting that area in that arena. Uh as far as the kids who are bullied, uh can exp kids who are bullied basically experience negative physical, school, and mental health issues. Um, they're more likely to experience depression, anxiety, increased feelings of sadness, loneliness, changes in sleep and eating patterns, loss of interest and activities they used to enjoy. And these symptoms may persist into adulthood. And that's where it kind of just breaks my heart. You know? I mean, these, you know, you you may think it's like that these kids are five, six, eight, ten years old, it's like that, and you think you think you're just gonna tease them, you're gonna have a little fun with them, you're just gonna bully them like that. But I tell you what, it could really uh cause some lasting impacts.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Um, did you wanna No, I'm just I'm just thinking why why kids get bullied. And uh and I think I think one of the the re main reasons is is because they have no confidence in themselves. You know, they they walk in the hallways with their head down and and you know become an easy it become an easy target.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Right. So forth. Yeah. Um and again, that's um I know it's been such a long time, but I tell you what, you know, we really weren't into sports, we were more or less into music. And um, you know, because I always kind of walked around in middle school almost with a little bit of fear factor, you know, who's gonna who's gonna pick on me, who's gonna push me, even though I wasn't intimidated.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

We were small. I mean, what do we weigh a hundred pounds in a senior in high school?

SPEAKER_02 28:15

130.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Was it 130? Yeah. You never weighed 130. I I weighed more than you did, didn't I?

SPEAKER_02 28:21

I don't know, Dave. I I'd tell you, I don't know. Come on, Steve. Tell the tell the public. I'd tell you what. You know, you you try to keep your mind on track, right? And then you're looking over at a cross for you, and then you got your brother kind of like smiling at you, and you're like, oh my gosh, I got to focus, focus, focus. I know.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

This is I I would I would I would prefer being interviewed than interviewing somebody.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Is this part of your ADHD that's coming out? No, this is you to keep me on track. Keep it on track. All right. So we're basically going about the effects and some of those health complaints. Uh, children may fall ill or seem to more often than normal. Uh decreased academic achievement, GPA standardized test scores could drop, uh, they're likely to miss, skip, or drop out of school, uh, tendency to become emotional withdrawn to the point where they have uh trouble interacting with their peers. Children may isolate themselves from their friends, uh, they may seek to avoid settings where bullying frequently occurs. And that is a big thing that I've done. It's like that. I avoided those situations. You know, back in the day when you actually have smoking at the high school and at PHS, they had the pretty much the smoking hole. I didn't go, I didn't, I didn't I didn't even walk by there. I didn't go by there because that's where everybody who smoked cigarettes, that's where they smoked so forth. So it's like, I'm not going there. But anyway. Um, anger and rage is one possible emotional response to bullying. And many reports following school shootings have found that the title shooters were bullied by their peers in 12 of the 15 school shootings cases in the 1990s, the shooters had a history of being bullied. And so children may be at increased risk of suicide. And that's one of the reasons that we're talking about this this topic that's so important and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

You know, um it you know, it's what's what's shocking is how you know bullying, how it can push someone to to commit suicide. And I I think that when when you're younger, I don't know if they really know what suicide is. You know what I mean? I mean, adults do about taking their life, the kids, they they probably are acting. Matter of fact, um two or three years ago, um, I got a phone call. There was a um a death in uh in Sophia, uh that was an elementary school where a a nine-year-old boy committed suicide. And uh and it was one of those things where he he fought back and and uh against the the people that were bullied. And and um you sort of wonder, well, is it because of bullying or is it because of his uh life? So when I was there, I was bound determined to figure out okay, why did this little boy commit suicide? And um so I I actually talked with the counselor, and uh the counselor said, you know, um he's had a he's had a horrible background. Um his I think his mom and dad um he either his dad was in prison and his mom is he didn't have a mom, and his dad uh is supposed to no no no no no no no his his his dad was in prison and his mom, I think, was supposed to visit and he was actually living with his grandparents and his and his mom was supposed to visit like every two weeks, but she never did. So he was dealing with a lot of family issues, and then I think that that that plus being bullied was you know he couldn't really handle that, so he took his life.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

At nine years old.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Nine years old. I tell you, um, you know, we as parents, you know, with today's society and today's workpace, a lot of times there's parents out there that have one job, a lot of parents have two jobs or even three jobs. And the thing is, and there's not that supervision back in the day when we grew up. You know, mom was a stay-at-home mom, dad worked from eight to five, he was home at 5 30, but now you don't have that, so forth. And so now you basically whereas what I'm getting to is that there was someone there were actually to observe, to watch, to see that, you know, to see if you're actually, you know, how you're responding. And we as parents really need to be more observant, or engaged within our kids. Exactly. Engaged is a great word, it's like that, you know. That's that was awesome. Thank you. But as far as oh man. But anyway, um happens every so often. Yeah, you finally come out with a good word. I tell you, that doesn't happen too often. But anyway, so we we need to be more engaged with our kids, you know. You know, when they bring home those report cards, you know, you need to look at the report cards. If your kids are used to getting straight A's, B's, and there's a D's, Fs, and there's a trend going down, there's something going on. Something's not right. Or if they're being more isolated into the room, you know, where there's before they used to go out and play with their kids, it's like that, or their friends. Now they're going back to the room, you know, or they're becoming more ill. I don't want to go to school, or I miss school. Uh, and again, you hit it right on the on the head. We need to be more engaged with our children so forth. Engaged. Engaged. Use that in a sentence. Okay. All right. So that's basically the the child or the victim. Um, we're now gonna talk about the kids who bully others, the bully. And you may not think there's actually effects on this individual, but there are effects. Yeah, I'd like to know this because I'd never heard such a thing. All right. Uh the kids who bully others are just as at risk of short-term and long-lasting emotional problems as the children they victimize. Kids who bully others can also engage in violent and other risky behaviors into adulthood, so it can carry on. Uh, kids who are bullied are more likely to have trouble relating to their peers, abuse alcohol and other drugs in adolescence and as adults, get into fights, vandalize property, drop out of school, engage in early sexual activity, have criminal convictions and traffic citations as adults, and be abusive towards their romantic partner, spouses, or children as adults. I agree. So all above. Yeah, all the above. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

I tell you what, it's just and it's that it's that cycle. That cycle just continues. And and you just mentioned it, you mentioned it too, uh, with the uh the rest home, like that. And these individuals who are at that rest home probably in their 90s.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

I think I think the solution for bullies, I think they need to come to jujitsu classes. Jujujitsu class.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Right. Right. But you know, I tell you what, um, and they they do they do make a note, okay, and you basically said this at the beginning of the program so forth. You said that you were actually bullied and then bully. So you've experienced both ends, and there's there's effects on kids like yourself who basically have been bullied and are bullied. So what are you saying, Steve? Well, I'm just saying I'm just saying there's people out there that you know you see the effects that they could have issues, and uh the kids who are bullied are also bullied themselves. And that's the thing is um, you know, where where does it start? You know, I mean, were you bullied and all of a sudden now you want to become the bullied?

SPEAKER_01 35:23

No.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Or the bully? So forth. Um and again, they demonstrate a lot of the same behaviors as the victims and bullies. But the thing is, is the insurance very sad part comes later when they reach adulthood and experience long-lasting psychological effects that are more severe than that experienced by either bullies or victims alone. That's hard to that's wow, that's something else. But uh anyway, no, I'm not saying I see any of that in you, Dave. You you turned out really well so forth. I'm just saying that percentage is is low. It's like that. So you're good. You're good. We're not gonna mom. We're not gonna I'm sure they'll probably already find out. I'll probably be getting a phone call on this comes out on Sunday, I'll probably be getting a phone call on Monday morning.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

No, I was bullied, I was listening I was second to the youngest in seven kids. I was the one who was bullied emotionally by the older kids.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

I I I don't agree with that. I had to disagree with you.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

I know it. Um when I was two, I remember everything.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

But now again, we're gonna talk about the observer or the bystander, the individual who's sitting there watching someone get bullied. And you and you had thought, you know, does that really affect someone? Based on research, it does affect the the observer and bystanders. And the bystander, and then this is where the the bystanders play a crucial role in bullying because bullying frequently occurs in places with lots of children around. So forth. Uh, what is through their bullying behavior are often important to the bully who may need an audience?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

What do you well? Um I I think that relates to a lot of these uh mass shootings. Um you know, um if you if you look at it, a lot of these shootings, school shootings are happen in urban um areas, and the the biggest platform is you know, to get recognized is school or a um a government building. And um, you know, and they're they just want the attention, you know, to you know, and when they actually shoot people, they get all this exposure and everything else, you know.

unknown 37:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

I tell you, you you mentioned a point, uh we mentioned a point as far as the observer or the bystander, when they sit there and watch and they do nothing. So forth.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

But wait, but but see, but they do nothing. I don't know if if if they just do nothing. I I think they just don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Right. Well, this is this comes out from reach out.org, so forth. And basically, reach out.org points there are many reasons an observer or bystander would prefer not to do something about the situation, including one, fearing the bully will make them his or her next target.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Two, believing it to be none of their business. Three, feeling like a tattletale. How many times you heard that? Don't be a tattletale. That's that's four, feeling that intervention won't accomplish anything, especially if they have previously told teachers who have not taken any action. And it's basically important to understand that inaction is not passive. When bystanders do nothing, they are actively making a choice to either ignore it, pretend it has nothing to do with them, or sometimes even watch with enjoyment.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

You know what? Let me let me share this with you. I I was doing an assembly in uh Dayton, uh Dayton, Ohio, it was an inner city school. It was actually an alternative school. And um I uh I did the I did the assembly, and then the principal wanted me to go to each grade and uh take question and answers and everything else. And um, but I was going to the different rooms and um and these different kids would ask me different questions, and one of these kids said, So, uh Mr. Wells, if if we see somebody getting bullied, um, and if we step in, are we gonna get bullied too, or is it gonna make things worse? And I'm thinking, I I don't know what to say. And uh I said, you know, no, it's it's not gonna get worse. I mean, you know, but you know, it was a good question that that person asked, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Right. Kids who are bullied are more likely to have increased use of tobacco, alcohol, or other drugs, have increased mental health problems, including depression and anxiety, miss or skip school, and these behaviors can in turn lead to long-lasting psychological impacts. And as far as the psychological impacts, we're just gonna touch on a couple of these, but this comes from short-term and long-term effects of bullying by Katie Hurley, and um long-term effects of uh bullying for the victim. Basically, again, is pretty much chronic depression, increased risk of suicidal thoughts, suicide plans, suicide attempts, anxiety disorders, post-traumatic stress disorder, poor general health, self-destructive behavior, including self-harm, substance abuse, difficulty establishing trusting, reciprocal friendships, and relationships. Uh, if you look at any of some of the long-term effects of the bullying for the bully, again, you have basically risk of spouse or child abuse, substance abuse, less likely to be educated or employed, uh, grow up to be unhappy adults, method relating to the world around them often don't work well into adulthood. Again, difficulty in retaining relationships, friendships, uh difficult in maintaining romantic, uh, or even family relationships for that matter, uh, maybe at greater risk for suicidal thoughts and behaviors, though this is more likely when they are bullied in addition to acting as a bully. And then there's a talk about a greater risk from antisocial personality disorder. And I looked up antisocial personality disorder, and it comes from the Mayo Clinic, and basically that's an overview pretty much as far as the antisocial personality disorder, sometimes called sociopathy, is a mental condition in which a person consistently shows no regard for right and wrong and ignores the rights and feelings of others. People with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize, manipulate, or treat others harshly or with callous indifference. They show no guilt or remorse for their behavior. Uh, individuals with antisocial personality disorder often violate the law, becoming criminal. They lie, behave violently, impulsively, and have problems with drug and alcohol use. Because of these characteristics, people with this disorder typically can't fulfill responsibilities related to family, work, or school.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

It's pretty in-depth stuff.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

It's in pretty in-depth, isn't it? I tell you, um, we just basically some of the things as far as the person who was bullying and also a bully himself, um, they display some of the most severe emotional handicaps in later in life. Again, that is basically both the individual was a bully and they were bullied. And oftentimes bullies engaged in learned behavior. We were talking about this earlier, which they were taught in the home by abusive parents, siblings, relatives, or caregivers. They often remained depressed and anxious well until later in life and had a greater level of young adult psychiatric disorders. And this comes from the jam of psychiatric adult psychiatric outcomes of bullying and being bullied by peers in childhood and adolescence. The bully/slash victim had elevated rates of childhood psychiatric disorders, um, agrophobia. Again, this is basically an anxiety disorder in which you fear and avoid places of situations that might cause you to panic and make you feel trapped, helpless, or embarrassed, panic disorder, and generalized anxiety. The bully victim are greater risk of suicide or self-harmful thoughts than pure victims, while only 5.7% of young adults who were neither bullies nor victims reported thought of suicide, a whopping 24.8% of bullies slash victims reported it. The bully victim had the highest levels of depression, anxiety, and panic disorders. You know, I tell you what, as far as um I really appreciate what you do, you David, as far as going into these schools. I mean, I know it's it's difficult for you at times, you know. I mean, I know uh it's kind of hard to get into it. But when you see these different types of things that these children, again, like to say, there's no there's no winners. It's pretty much it sounds to me like they're all losers. You know, no one no one wins in this this whole bullying. Damn it. Um it's it's an e it's an excellent way and a reason uh to talk to children, you know, about the harmful effects of bullying, that's why we're doing this podcast. Uh it's basically to ensure that they have a useful, actionable ways to respond to a bully situation when they see it, and that's what you're doing with your jiu jitsu, you know, if the if you know the you have to defend yourself. And I think when you defend yourself like that. You don't get that attention anymore. Um, and when children feel as though they can do something about unfair behavior, they avoid the issues that often attend helplessness, such as depression and anxiety. But if we look at um the relationship between bullying and suicide, because again, our next podcast will be uh going on suicide and mainly for the month, but it talks about the media reports often link bullying with suicide. And it says, however, this comes from the stopbullying.gov. It says most youths who are bullied do not have thoughts of suicide or engage in suicide behaviors. Although kids who are bullied are at risk of suicide, bullying alone is not the cause. And many issues contribute to suicide risk, including depression, problems at home, and trauma history. Specific groups have an increased risk of suicide, including American Indian, Alaskan Native, Asian American, lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth. The risk can be increased further when these kids are not supported by parents, peers, and schools. Bullying can make an unsupportive situation worse. And um again, Katie Hurley basically notes that childhood bullying has serious effects on both short-term and long-term health of children, and immediate intervention and long-term follow-up can help mediate some of these effects. And it's so important that schools, families, and communities work together to understand bullying and its consequences and find ways to decrease and hopefully eradicate bullying both in schools and in communities.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

You know, when when you you're reading all these effects of bullies and and and kids that are getting bullied, um if you look at some statistics, they say one out of three kids are bullied every day to school the year, one out of four. So it's a it's a difference. So there's been a lot of people that have been bullied and have turned out great, you know. I think I think a lot of some of these are really severe cases, what what kind of effects that you have. I mean, um I don't know. I mean, you know, bullying is a is a you know, it's a short-term thing. I mean, in school. I mean it's it's it's it's gonna it's gonna quit. Either um the person's gonna stop getting bullied because he's gonna go to a a different school or if he's gonna go to a different grade, different friends, you know what I mean? I think it's uh I think that a lot of these statistics are, you know, are they accurate obviously, but I think they're just you know worst case scenarios.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Well, I tell you what, you know, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Okay, this is this is based on this is based on research. And the comment you the comment you said as far as um you know the the elderly in the nursing home. I mean that I that I'm sure that started back, you know, when he was an adolescent, either being bullied or bullied, and it can switch and so forth. But the big thing, and I'm gonna let you close, okay, we're your closing remarks as far as what we can do as a community and also to help bully, to help eradicate this. So what would you suggest? It's like that. If you I mean, what do you what do you tell the students at the end of the, you know, when you're talking about anti-bullying? Well, here's what I would tell them.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

And I like I told you, bullying is for a period of time. I mean, it's it's gonna it's gonna stop eventually. It's either the parents are gonna make it stop or it, you know, the person's gonna move. I mean, it's just a temporary thing. A lot of us, we just have to realize we we have we with me, I mean, I I learned to live with it. But it's it's hard to learn to live with it when I have to talk about it all the time. Does it make sense? You know, you f you know, you for uh you just you know forget about talking about it. When you talk about something, it seems like it just it just blows up again and your emotions get involved. You know, when you when you tell a story when you're either doing a public speaking, you know, like you. I mean, you might be telling a story about about data's situation and and you get caught up in the moment and you have all these emotions, and it's the same thing. And so you rehash things and things are fresh in your mind. I think if if you do what I do, it's it's hard to you know to put that aside. But so many people it's been so long ago. I I mean I it it's funny, but we never forget being bullied. I I I mean I I uh interviewed Dave Cause. Dave Cause, I mean, he was when he was walking down the hallway, I mean he would he would get cold cocked and knocked out, and um but he remembers this. Mm Darren Ron. I mean he was he was bullied um over and over and over just because of his stature. I mean, 90% of the reason why people get bullied is because their appearance, you know. But I just I just think that it it's you know it's a it's a temporary thing, you know, and um that's one thing. But I think that the parents, like you said, we need to get engaged in our or more involved in our kids and talk to them, ask them the hard questions, you know, be their friend, uh so-called friend, you know. But um so there's a lot of things that we can do. I you know.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Right. I tell you what, as far as your what did I just say? I tell you uh, get engaged with our children. Engaged. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Can you use that in a sentence?

SPEAKER_02 49:16

But I tell you what, I want to uh let you uh as far as if you're interested in uh listening to more as far as uh to David, you actually go to his website, and his website is www.davebond.org. Okay. And if you want to know more about bullying, your podcast is Well, yeah, it's it's um bully resistant.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

It's the bully resistance show with uh David Wells. Uh you know, my my show, it's it's it it started out to be all about bullying. But I think that um you know I think us as human beings, we bully ourselves with our thoughts that we think of. Like we can't do this because I'm not talented enough. I I can't I can't do I can't have this this dream can't come about because I don't have any contacts or I don't have any money, you know. I mean, we bully ourselves. So I I have a lot of people that have been bullied, but have sh uh, you know, shared their story and how they got through it and how they become successful, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

So So you and you know, you said that as far as these I mean, if if a school, if a teacher or uh uh uh principal or administrator basically wants to get a hold of you, uh some of the the classes or some of the things that you actually teach in school um is like dare to dream, um see the three D's, desire, discipline, determination, um, bullying, low self-esteem, um and then importance of making right decisions. Right. And also not only do you you you talk about those subjects, but you also um play your trumpet.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Yeah, well, when I when I go in, uh, you know, jazz is a it's you know it's it's not appealing to the the most of the you know audience. I mean um a lot of people don't have an appreciation for jazz, but I've when I go in, I'll do like a mini concert. Of course I'll I'll play, you know, two or three videos, I'll be playing along with the videos, you know, and just keep it interesting, you know. But it's you know, the music that I play, it's it's upbeat and stuff, and I get into the the bleachers and stuff. I mean it's we all have fun, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

And you also do a radio or help host the radio program?

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Yeah, I'm I'm a co-host of Chocolate Jazz Radio Network. Now you can get a hold of us a couple ways.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

I won't go into that.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

How's that? Well, that you have to listen to the show. You have to listen to the show. You can you can just go to chocolate jazzradio at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

I tell you, I listened to it the other day, and uh I thought it was excellent. That's really good. I don't know how you all keep from getting into one. He does a lot of editing. He does. But anyway, I tell you what, I just want to thank our listeners uh to uh listening to today's uh program uh with Soaring Health and Wellness.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Until next time, keep advancing. Thank you for listening to Soring in Health and Wellness with Dr. Steve Wells and his guests. We would like to thank our sponsor, Mountaineer Chiropractic. For more information, go online to MountaineerCairo.com. If you'd like to be a sponsor or help support Soaring in Health and Wellness Podcast, please go to the web at Eaglesway Ministries.org and select the patron page in the top menu bar. If you or your business or church would like Dr. Steve Wells to speak at your church, special event or conference, please go online to Eaglesways Ministries.org and select contact on the menu bar or send an email to Eaglesway Ministries at gmail.com or call 304-485-6589. Until next time, think of Isaiah chapter 40, verses 29 through 31. It gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall. Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.