Is Suicide an Unforgiveable Sin?

 On today’s episode, we ask the question: Is suicide an unforgivable sin? Joining us for the discussion is Pastor Dan Stevens. During the conversation, I reference the book Grace for the Afflicted by Dr. Matthew Stanford. Dr. Stanford begins his chapter by noting that suicide is a subject that often provokes fear, shame, and sadness. Some people describe suicide as “a selfish act” or “a permanent solution to a temporary problem.” However, Dr. Stanford explains that these statements can wrongly imply that suicide is always a rational and carefully reasoned decision to end one’s life.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Soaring in Health and Wellness is brought to you by Mountaineer Chiropractic, your soft tissue specialist, located at 2108 Camden Avenue, Suite D, Parkersburg, West Virginia. For more information, go online to MountaineerCairo.com. If you'd like to be a sponsor or help support Soaring in Health and Wellness Podcasts, please go online to Eaglespace Ministries.org and select Patron page in the top menu bar. Hello, and thank you for listening to Soaring in Health and Wellness with Dr. Steve Wells. Dr. Wells is a chiropractic physician with a passion to help individuals reach new levels in health and wellness. He has been involved in the health and wellness field for over 30 years. Dr. Wells received his Bachelor of Science degree from Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma, with an emphasis in health and exercise science. He received his second Bachelor of Science degree in general sciences, along with his Doctor of Chiropractic degree with honors from Palmer College of Chiropractic in Davenport, Iowa. Soaring in Health and Wellness is a tool to help educate individuals reach new levels in health and wellness and a passion to live with a sense of purpose and vitality. Dr. Wells and his guests, ranging from doctors from all areas of healthcare, educators, nurses, personal trainers, counselors, and pastors, will discuss and inform you on how to improve all dimensions of wellness from a biblical worldview perspective with one goal in mind: seeing you soar towards optimal health and wellness. If you're ready, let's get started with today's program with your host, Dr. Steve Wells.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Welcome to another edition of Soaring Health and Wellness. Today's guest is Pastor Dan Stevens. Pastor Stevens pastors the church family at Bible Baptists in Parkersburg. He has a passion for preaching and teaching God's word and an equal passion to serve people. So welcome to the program, Pastor Dan.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Hey, thank you, Steve. It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Good. If you could tell us a little bit about yourself, let our listeners know who you are and where you're from.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Well, I've been happily married for 36 years, and my wife and I enjoy uh living here in Parkersburg. I started off as a youth pastor 38 years ago and grew up in in South Florida. And then we also did youth ministry in uh western New York, upstate New York, and then and also did a senior pastorate, and then we came here 16 years ago and focused on being involved in the community as well as I have four children, four adult children and two grandchildren. And so uh keeps you pretty busy. It keeps me very busy, but exited about that and how God has blessed.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Great. Well, I tell you what, uh, Pastor Dan's a friend of mine, a good friend of mine. So I tell you what, uh Pastor Dan, what we've been doing for this past month basically is the National Winders for Suicide Awareness Month, is the month of September. And we've had speakers pretty much, we started with anti-bullying uh with my brother David, who goes into the school system talking about anti-bullying. But also we had Dr. Stephen Gibbons and Michael Moore basically talking about suicide depression. And so we're gonna be closing our our series uh with today's topic. And today's topic basically comes from the book Grace for the Afflicted. And we've been using Grace for the Afflicted by Dr. Stanford pretty much to this whole entire month. And in his chapters like that, with the suicide, basically, he talks about his suicide and unfor unforgivable sin. I guess another question is do you lose your salvation if you commit suicide? Is something that I've kind of thought about as far as that. Any any suggestions on that or any input on that as far as just right out of the gate?

SPEAKER_02 3:29

I I think that we as we approach it uh as far as from my position as a pastor in the trenches, so to speak, is that we understand that the scripture is absolute truth, and God's opinion is really all that really matters, and life is precious and is valuable. And and and suicide is a serious sin. Uh you know, uh Exodus 20, 13, you shall not murder, but it can be forgiven as any other sin because we've been affected in every area of the fall, uh affected mind, body, and soul. And what it says in the scripture clearly in the book of Colossians, for instance, and uh verses thir chapter 2, verses 13 and 14, that those of us that have been redeemed can be forgiven of all of our sins, both past, present, and future. And then the Apostle Paul also speaks about the fact that in uh Romans chapter 8, verse 38 through 39, which many people are very familiar with, that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. So if a true Christian would commit suicide in a time of extreme weakness or distress, he or she would be received into heaven. I mean, Jude 24 clearly speaks about that. So that is that is, I think, b biblical, but there is an honest question that many people ask about faith, people of faith who take their lives and or even consider suicide seriously. And it may be that they have never been truly saved. And how can I say such a statement like that? Well, because God's children are defined repeatedly in the scripture, those who have hope and purpose in life. And we find that in Romans chapter five. You know, it talks about hope that we have in Christ and Romans 8 28. God works all things together for good, those who are called according to his purpose. So there is the hope and the purpose in Christ. And so the question needs to come as we wrestle with these individuals who are struggling with it. First of all, we need to give, we need to treat them with grace, which is Dr. Stanford does an excellent job, which I'd like to put a plug in for that book.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

I really think everybody, every pastor, every person that has a family member, loved one, or even themselves going through some type of mental health issue really needs to have this book on their on their on their library, in their library so forth, because it's an excellent source, so forth. Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

And I I think not only in their library, but I I would agree with you wholeheartedly. In fact, you introduced the book to me well over a year ago, and I find it as a very valuable tool. And quite honestly, there are some of us in the pastorate, evangelical pastors, who have approached suicide or mental illness as you just gotta buck up, you're not having a faith. But in reality, that's just not true.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Right. I tell you what, I want to for those listeners who basically don't have really a strong foundation in Bible or religion or things like that. I want to kind of talk about more or less as far as the wholeness aspect. Okay, kind of explain that, lay the groundwork. I'm a graduate from Orl Roberts University, and of course, and that's where I first came across as far as the whole person philosophy or teaching, and it's basically person, spirit, mind, and body, so forth. And uh basically wholeness is the state of being perfectly well in body, soul, mind, which includes your mind, will, and emotions, and spirit. And uh, God's original design for man before sin entered the world through the fall, which you were talking about before, it's like that of Adam, and now attainable only when one's body is in heaven after the second coming of Jesus. And I get that basically through faith and healthconnection.org. So God's original design for man is perfect wholeness. And it says in Genesis 2.7, the Bible tells us that the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and then man became a living being. But the big thing is as far as I feel like a lot of the discrepancy type deal, as far as whether it'd be in the church realm or something like that, you know, we can understand when that fall, and you comment on please, when that fall as far as when Adam and Eve sinned so forth, basically it separated us from the spirit realm as far as God type deal.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Any good absolutely it separated us from the spirit realm, uh, broke the relationship with our heavenly father. But there was also the consequences, and the consequences were is that our body and our minds and our emotions would all be affected too. You can see that pretty quickly, even in the first uh few chapters following in the book of Genesis, there. And so there's the the the curse that's upon our flesh. You know, there wasn't death before chapter five of Genesis talks about and they died, and they died, and they died. And and so there is uh you're totally uh correct in that assumption, and I believe it to be truth, absolute, is that we must we must approach ministry, we must approach dealing with people and the whole person. It's not just the spiritual, it is the body, it is the mind. And so that is that is critical.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

All right. I'd say it's basically, you know, again, as we talked about recently, as far as Adam and Eve when they sin, the the perfect design of man was destroyed. Originally created in the image of God, this image became marred. And as we can see basically in Romans 5, 15 through 17, that the spirit of man or spirit of person who has not been saved is dead. So what was once a perfectly knitted and intact spirit, mind, and body became imperfect. And each of us were born into this world as flawed and imperfect, no matter how hard that may seem to believe when you look at a newborn. Okay, like how can this affect this little one here? But here it says, each of us were born in the world as flawed and imperfect, means which we inherit from Adam and Eve. Again, basically, as far as one might ask, as far as, you know, again, mental illness, Dr. Stanford opens up this chapter noting that suicide is a word that provokes fear, shame, and sadness. Some have called suicide a selfish act and a permanent answer to a temporary problem. He continues to note that both of these statements wrongly imply that suicide is a reason and rational decision to take one's life. Since its beginning, the church has struggled with understanding the spiritual consequences of suicide, at times, even refusing burial or religious rights to the victims because they were taught to have committed an unforgivable mortal sin, damning to hell. And Dr. Stamp explains that suicide is neither reason nor rational, and mental illness is the most common cause. You know, if you look at the statistics as far as mental illness, one out of four adults, one out of five children are affected in some way with mental illness. So, as I'd mentioned to you in church, and you've read also that 25% of our congregation, whether we know it or not, is affected with some sort, whether it be depression, anxiety, so forth. But anyway, but the the thing is as far as what causes the mental illness. And you were talking about as far as pretty much, and we as we mentioned before, mental illness is no respecter person, so forth, you know, whether whether you be saved, whether you whether you're a preacher, you had talked to me earlier about a friend of yours that you knew, so forth. So could you elaborate on that?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah, it's dealing in the trenches, and uh you you kind of get this naive idea, at least I did when I first came out of college, is that once you come to Christ, everything's together. But you tr you quickly learned that people all the different experiences, all different types of uh difficulties in life, uh physical abuse, substance abuse, uh upbringing, how they were brought up, how they were not brought up. But uh particularly what you're referring to is a pastor, and I'll just simply refer to him as uh Reverend Smith. He had a loving family, he had children, he had a loving congregation, but he was constantly dealing with feelings of suicide. And uh he got good medical and mental you know, help as far as those that were uh trying to help him, medication and such. And after years of constantly dealing with, they let down their guard and he was still in the ministry. And uh perhaps it was a stresses, uh it was perhaps it just I I don't know, guilt. But he went to the local hardware store and uh uh purchased some rope, and his son, his teenage son, found him in the stairway behind the baptistry hanging from uh one of the rafters there. And and interesting thing, in fact, if you read Dr. Stanford's book, he also has an example in there. But the whole community in this instance too of Reverend Smith, they all came out. They all came out for his funeral and uh said, What a loving, great example, good impact in the community. And his family just had a hard time. But his wife said this she said that he had talked about it so much that we were not surprised when it took place, as much as that everybody tried to help him and tried to encourage him and reinforce him. And that's one of the things that we need to realize is that we have to work so diligently with these folks at this and take it very, very seriously, and it's affecting our culture so strongly. So we've got to encourage people that they are they're not odd, they're not weird, that we can understand, and we need to reach out to them and get them the help that they need in every way.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Right. I tell you what, there's an article basically by Edward Rogers, the defects of mental illness on families within faith communities, and this is from mental health, religion, and culture. It says the simple fact is that Christians develop mental illness at the same rate seen in the general population. Wow, it's like that. And you ask yourself pretty much what so what causes mental disorders? Well, Dr. Stanford does a great job on this, and I think this is something that we should point out as well. Basically, he mentions that mental disorders result from a complex interaction of biological nature and environmental nurture factors. And Dr. Stephen Gibbons and Michael Moore and I spoke on this on a previous podcast and says basically all people are born with differing degrees of biological vulnerabilities or predispositions for developing mental health difficulties and disorders. He continues to note that some individuals have a greater set of biological vulnerabilities than others. Having a biological predisposition toward developing a mental disorder is not enough by itself to trigger the illness. Instead, an individual's biological vulnerability must interact with stressful life events such as trauma, loss of a job, loved one, child, spouse, in order to prompt the onset of the illness. The greater the underlying biological vulnerability an individual is born with, the less stress is needed to trigger the onset of the illness, and vice versa. Until this critical level of life stress has been reached, people will generally function normally and their biological vulnerability will remain hidden. And this is one of the reasons so important to manage your stress in a very positive way. You know, I tell you, last week I had a I had an individual come in and we're talking and so forth, and they were traveling across the country, and a 20-year-old joined the forces so forth, Air Force, and ended up committing suicide 20 years old, so forth. The thing is, is that a year earlier his dad was killed in an accident, was hit by a semi truck and was killed and so forth. And so it's it's those things, you know, how much can you take and how much can you tolerate and so forth. I don't know if if he was a believer, but you wonder how, you know, I mean, that would just be so crucial is that type of event to that actually affect. So again, we're all kind of born, but you know, until we reach that stressful, that's why it's so important.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Uh I believe it's like that, as far as just being two factors I think that are important too is that again, Dr. Stanford's uh book, and I'm not getting paid any royalties to recommend it. Neither am I, but but it's just an excellent biblically sound, okay. For those of you that are pastors out there, may I say to you that I believe in the absolute authority of the scriptures, and and so does Dr. Stanford, and he comes from a very solid biblical background training, and so it's not smoke and mirrors that he's sharing. And it is what one of the things that's important is he shares that it's uh it's it's good to check into the DSM 5 that is the that is the manual that helps as far as different diagnosis and different uh observations that you can make that have been uh pinpointed. He also makes a statement, too, that I think is valuable for us to consider is that there is a tendency, too, for those who have family members who've committed suicide or have had suicidal thoughts, that they're more apt to having those tendencies in their children and their even their other descendants. I'm not sure I understand all that, but the statistics certainly play out that way.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Well, it's it's the heritability. We talked about that on our previous podcast, but actually Dr. actually Michael Moore was talking about that, and as well as Dr. Givens, as far as the uh heritability having a family member again increases the the likelihood and the risk. We talked about the risk factors as well as the you know, the warning signs and so forth. And you mentioned earlier communication is is huge. And we kind of come up with, you know, again, if someone's talking about or even mentions it, you know, it's it's in the back of your mind, you really need to be taking that serious because you just never know when. So maybe it's that cry for help that are asking for, so forth. So never don't ever be afraid to ask that that tough question. You know, you you're in a position like that where you you're dealing with members of your body, members of the community that are in grief, you know, so it's grief for major events like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Uh I do know that for the average person, one of the things that you need to look at when there is a situation like this is that some just some warning signs. And I think uh Dr. Gibbons and uh Michael Moore shared last week, perhaps, but remove accessibility to do harm in any way. Diet, exercise, and sleep is a critical, critical aspect of that. And again, we we automatically say, well, make sure that they get positive family support. But I'd like to interject that they may not be getting good positive family support. Assume that you, as a friend who sees that, then you need to step in and be committed to help. And it's it's not a short term, it's got to be a long-term commitment. And yes, it's a sacrifice, but it's very important because that person needs to know that they're valuable. And that helps. Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

It's one of those remember, um, Dr. Stanford again, as far as the facets or the facets, you know, as far as spirit, mind, body. But also you talked about relational, you know, you know, God put on earth for us to have a relationship, Adam and Eve, and so forth. So relationships are very important. Putting getting yourself involved in a church body, uh, surrounding yourself with friends, you know, family, it's all interacted. And it basically interacts, you know, we're talking about as far as wellness goes. You know, we talk about the components of wellness as far as mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, so forth. Uh, for someone to be basically optimally healthy and well, you know, they had to have a basically a balance in all those aspects because one affects the other. And you talked about exercise and nutrition, so forth, is so important as well, type deal. But I'd say, well, we're gonna go ahead and take a break, and when we come back, we're gonna continue our concession, our discussion on is basically about suicide and unforgettable sin and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Soaring in Health and Wellness is brought to you by Mountaineer Chiropractic, your soft tissue specialist, located at 2108 Camden Avenue, Sweet D, Parkersburg, West Virginia. For more information, go online to mountaineerchiro.com. If you would like to be a sponsor or help support Soaring in Health and Wellness Podcast, please go online to Eaglesways Ministries.org and select patron page in the top menu bar.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Welcome back to Soaring Health and Wellness. Today's guest is Pastor Dan Stevens, and our discussion today is basically is regarding Dr. Stanford's book, Grace for the Afflicted. And in the chapter basic, we're talking about is suicide and an unforgiv unforgivable sin, or, you know, do you lose your salvation if you do commit suicide? And anyway, so we'll just continue that conversation with Pastor Dan. And if we're looking at basically, Dr. Stanford notes that while both Jewish and Christian traditions consider suicide a serious sin, there is no direct prohibition of suicide in either the Old Testament or New Testament. He continues to explain that in Judaism Judaism, those who take their own lives are not entitled to Jewish burial. In morning rites, he continues in the Talmud, the ancient Jewish rabbis, base the prohibition against suicide on Genesis 9, verses 5 through 6, in which says, Surely for your life blood, I will demand a reckoning. From the hand of every beast, I will require it, and from the hand of man, from the hand of every man's brother, I will require the life of man. Whoever shed Man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed. For in the image of God he made man, this interpreted to mean I will require your blood if you yourselves shed it.

unknown 22:10

Dr.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Stampson continues to mention to individual St. Augustine, he brings up, which is perhaps the most influential church father in Western Christianity. He notes that Saint Augustine considered suicide a sin that violated the sixth commandment. You shall not murder, Exodus 20, 13. The other one that he mentioned is Thomas Aquinas, the 13th-century theologian and philosopher. He notes that Thomas Aquinas built upon this line of thinking by arguing that suicide was a sin because life is God's gift and only God has the right to take it away. Thomas Aquinas based his thoughts on Deuteronomy 32, 39. It is I who put to death and give life.

unknown 22:51

Dr.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Stanton continues to explain that Aquinas' argument for the sinfulness of suicide is further strengthened by 1 Corinthians 6, 19 through 20. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, who you have from God, and you are not your own? For you're bought at a price, therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah, I would uh certainly agree with that because it's uh it's God's word, and and there's another one in Ezekiel that says, All souls are mine, and they shall return to me. So there's an aspect of stewardship. The the gift, the precious gift, the most gracious gift that God has given us is life. And uh it's valuable. And though I think it's it's possible for a true believer to commit suicide, and uh yet it is very unusual for occurrence for a genuine believer because of that faith and that purpose that they have, the hope that they have. However, with all of these that we've seen, as Dr. Stanford says, these are sensible interpretations of the scripture, and particularly in relation to suicide. And uh there's one important caveat that I think that needs to be mentioned, and that is that that they all assume that suicide is a reasonable choice that they've made, a reasoned at or freely chosen. And many times we find, at least the people that I'm dealing with, there there is mental illness. And uh those of us in the the pulpits who are preaching, we've got to come to a realization is that just like you can be a spiritual person and you can have, you know, have a physically good body, but it doesn't guarantee that you're going to. There is no guarantee of that. Our bodies wear down. You can love the Lord with all your soul, all your heart, all your mind and might, and yet your heart can fail. You can have high cholesterol, you can have liver disease, all these things. And it it is just simply because of the curse that is upon us as we groan, all creation groans. But I think that we need to also make that step, is I've had to learn, is that just as there are medical doctors for our physical body, there is also needs to be professionals, healthcare professionals, mental health professionals that deal with our mental and emotional health. We're finding post-traumatic stress syndrome or disorder is widely affecting many of our military that are coming back from the wars that we've been in for over nearly 20 years. We find a number of stressors, we find uh substance abuse that affects that. And so I think that we really need to be honest and say we don't understand all of it, and so we need to look to those that have studied this and understand it. And so I think what Dr. Stanford mentions here is that mental illness does have a huge role to play in suicide, and that needs to be tackled very seriously and very, I think, uh very thoughtfully.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Right. I tell you what, he um he also mentions basically that the scriptural arguments that Thomas Aquinas and also St. Augustine basically appear that they are theologically sound and suggest that suicide is indeed a sin. Okay, but the question is, is it unforgivable? And does it affect an individual's eternal destination is the big question. Again, he he notes that our good behaviors not get us to heaven, just like our simple behavior does not send us to hell. And he quotes Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8 through 9, For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not not of yourselves, is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. He continues to note that we all are born dead in our sins, which we talked about earlier, going back to the fall, separated from God if with no hope of eternal life. Psalms 51, 5, Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. Only through the death and resurrection of Christ can we have an opportunity to be reconciled to our Heavenly Father. When an individual comes to a saving faith in Jesus, they are basically they are made righteous and forgiven for every sin, past, present, and future, including suicide, explains Dr. Stanford. And again he references Ephesians 1, 7 through 8. In him we have redemption through his blood for forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, which he had made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence. Continues to explain if that individual for whatever reason dies by suicide, they are ushered into the presence of Christ because they are a redeemed child of God. And this is the one we all should know, probably is John 3.16, which basically states, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. But it goes on to John 3.17. If you look, for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. And he closes in basically stating that suicide is not the determining factor for eternal life, but a saving faith in Jesus is. Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

And that's important as far as what I feel is the difference between a man-centered theology and a God-centered theology. It is grace that saves us, Christ alone. And we are not saved. And then he says, okay, you're you're on your own from here on out. I I cleaned you up, I got you on the road to salvation. Now you finish the case. And it's the fact of our past, present, future, because it's not us who saves us ourselves. It is unmerited favor that we get. And therefore, the the legitimate arguments that people have or the wrestlings they've had, you know, well, suicide is self-murder, as it was called for many, many centuries. But again, was it a rational, was a sin that is unforgivable? We already know in the scripture it clearly tells us there's only one sin that's unforgivable, and that is the rejection of Christ, particularly the work of the Holy Spirit, there during that time. He tells us that. And so all sins are forgivable, including suicide.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I'd say he as far as the some of the things he talks about, I really like his book in a way that he basically brings in characters from the Bible, you know, some of our biblical heroes, so forth. He talks about some of the things as far as some of the principles that we can learn from reports of suicidal behavior in the Bible, so forth. And having faith does not guarantee that during times of extreme distress, an individual will not consider it a suicide as a way out, so forth. He talks about Moses, you know, he talks about Elijah, talks about Job, or some of the most reverend heroes of the faith, yet they became hopeless and long for death. And, you know, when when you start, you know, going back to the scripture and reading some of those things, as far as if you look at Moses, you know, it's kind of hard to believe Moses, the Ten Commandments, you know, a hero. You know, he had reasons for suicide audulations. And it was basically brought on by the stress of his leap the leadership, you know, of leading his um the Israelites out.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

I think another person is the Apostle Paul. In 2 Corinthians chapter 1, verse 8, he speaks about the tremendous stresses that they were under, the persecutions, being abandoned by people of faith, even. And he said, We were pressed out of measure, even that we despaired even of life, but we did not take our lives because we put our focus back on biblical response to that. We looked at what Christ could do. But the point is, is that even the apostle Paul, what a great hero of the faith he is, is that he even despaired of life at one point.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Yeah. And it's really interesting how God what God's response was, you know. Again, going back to Moses so forth, as far as God appointed others to help lead, he sent quail for the people, you know, and you can reference that to Numbers 11, 10 through 17. But it always seems to show up, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

It's yeah, well, that's a good point that you bring up because I think of Elijah. Elijah had served the Lord faithfully, he had served the Lord, particularly, he'd gone through tremendous persecution. The king hated him. He told him that everybody uh thinks that you've troubled Israel. And he said, I haven't troubled Israel, you have troubled Israel. He spoke faithfully for the Lord, and then he stood against the prophets of Baal and that tremendous working of God. The rain came, he ran back into Samaria, and where Jezebel, son of messengers, said that may the gods do to me if in by the next day, if if they don't, if by this time, that you aren't the same as those prophets of Baal. In other words, I'm gonna kill you. And he takes off, he runs, and he runs into the wilderness. And the point that you touched on a little bit about Moses, where God showed up with Elijah, he didn't get what the program, what is your problem? I've been with no, he's he softly and tenderly, first of all, he gives him water, gives him a meal, and he says, You need to strengthen yourself, has sends an angel to minister to him, sends him in, and even when he encounters him again, he says, Elijah, what are you doing here? In his soft, still voice. And it just shows that compassion. And that's that's what we need to do too, is because uh quite honestly, some of us who don't have mental health issues, we can almost have an attitude of superiority and saying, give it the program. You know, yeah, everybody has troubles, you know, shake it off, you know, want to slap them around and say, hey, get over it. Let's let's you know, let's let's go forward here. When in reality, we need to look at the examples that our Heavenly Father has, is that he was loving, tender, compassionate, and dealt with grace, which again, back to Dr. Stanford's book, his title of the book is aptly named Grace for the Afflicted.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

And and he deals with clinical and biblical perspective on mental illness. It's not just clinical, but it's also biblical. And for those of you that are uh pastors and Christian workers out there, I want to encourage you that this is a very, very critical issue that we have been, quite honestly, we've been our head in the sands on. And we just can't say that it's demon activity. It may be at certain times, but there are instances that, again, that Dr. Stanford brings out very articulately, very soundly, that speaks about instances in the scripture that are demon possession, but there are also instances where it's mental illness that have nothing to do with demons. And so I I would I would say that some of the help that we need to get people is to help them to observe things. For instance, yes, it's important for us to consider is that person truly a believer? Do they really have hope? Do they really have purpose in life? And and that's you know, the scripture tells us that we need to do that. 2 Corinthians 13, 5. I think we need to also understand that the nature of his or her conflict is supernatural conflict mentally as well, and that they need prayer. You know, Ephesians 6 talks about that, 1 Peter chapter 5, that, you know, be sober vigilant for your your adversary, like a roaring lion, is roaming about seeking whom he may desire, devour. Not only that, we need to uh help them to understand that they're not alone. The Lord will never leave them nor forsake them. And that's so important. In fact, I love that passage in Hebrews 13, verse 5 and 6, that not only says, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee, but then it goes in the next verse and talk about that he will be your help in time of trouble. And we also need to understand that in this, all this picture, Satan has a huge arsenal. And Satan desires to destroy life. Jesus told us that he is the one who is come to steal, kill, and destroy. Not just a physical, but mental, emotional, social. Job 1 and 2. We could read that. Where here is another saint where I think Dr. Sanford even refers to him, the fact that he had thoughts of suicide, where he had his family destroyed, he had his home destroyed, he had his possessions, even his wife abandoned him. And yet we need to understand the Satan's behind that. And this life and death struggle is a mental and spiritual battle that has got to be won in our minds. And so helping them to have a good, solid mind. 2 Corinthians chapter 10, verses 3 through 6, it talks about the idea of bringing every thought into captivity under the obedience of Christ and uh to stand up against those strongholds. So I would again say that there is ample, ample examples in the scripture of saints that we would say, man, those are really godly heroes of the faith. I I think another one that Dr. Stanford brings up is Samson. Samson, he was he was a real character. He did some very, we would say, immoral things. And yet, you would even say to the average person, you think Samson is heaven. And he committed suicide. It was it was actually vengeance against his enemies. And yet, if you read Hebrews chapter 11, it says he's one of the heroes of faith. So again, that's about grace. Right. That's what we need to remember.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Right. I tell you, that's a great point. I was just kind of listening to what you're saying as far as devil basically you're saying it coming after your mind. And basically, he comes after our mind through five different attacks on humans. And basically it comes from he he comes through temptation, deception, accusation, infirmity, and possession. So three of those five temptation, deception, accusation, he's coming after your mind. If he can get your mind, he can pretty much get all the others so forth. But that's how strongly he wants to get to attack to you.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Yeah, and it goes way back to the garden when he immediately goes to Eve and he starts questioning her in her mind. Did God really say? That's a good point. And uh so I think that we need to understand that here we are several thousand years later, even after the redemption of Christ, but there is still that process that until we step into glory, we're battling the battle for the mind, the battle for the body, the battle for the soul. And Satan's right in the center there. And he uses different aspects: the world, the flesh, and the devil, so to speak, you know, all the temptation of the world.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Right. A second point that Dr. Stanford basically talks about as far as some of the principles that we can get out of this is basically God promises to comfort those in distress who feel hopeless. God drew near to each individual in the Bible who considered suicide when they called out to him in their distress. He did not rebuke them for their suicidal thoughts, but offered them physical and spiritual comfort and support. And you mentioned that with Elijah and so forth. The third point, basically, the Bible does not condemn those who commit suicide, but in many instances, it reports that the individual was shown honor after death. He continues to note that the suicide does not appear to have been an event that would tarnish a righteous individual's legacy in biblical times. You mentioned that with Samson. Samson. It's like that. And then the fourth, finally, suicide does not disqualify an individual from eternal life from God. Sanson, as we mentioned before, is our best example for this principle, which you talked. He struggled to stay in true to his faith and ultimately took his own life. And the Bible records him in Hebrews 11, which is the roll call of faith. That's what you had made reference to. So as we close, Dr. Stanford basically closes known as the gospel is a message of forgiveness, redemption, and hope. When psychological distress overwhelms an individual and the person takes their life, our response should be one of grace toward their legacy while showing sympathy and compassion toward their family. The gospel makes no room for fear, shame, and condemnation. We must do the same in the church when we lose a brother or sister to mental illness. And so, Dr. uh Dr. Dr. Dan. Pastor Danny. Yeah, yeah, thank you. My honorary degree. But anyway, if you could close with some of your closing thoughts as far as reaching talking to those people who either had had a family member commit suicide, a loved one can suicide or a friend, and just kind of give them a gold nugget type deal that they can hold on to, uh a hope they can hold on to as far as just some of your closing.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Well, a lot of times that there's a lot of questions that are unanswered. Why? What could I have done differently? And I think one of the things that's very important is that we can answer is say to them is that only God knows. Only God knows. And the comfort can be in the fact that we live our lives from this point on, trying to send that message to others, you know, uh lighting the light in the darkness, so to speak. I know in our local city here we have awareness, suicide awareness, and there's a walk in the city park that we have, and constantly trying to not only remember the the legacy or the the memory of a family member, but also what can we do to try to help those that are struggling with it now? I do think that that three major areas that need to be addressed is uh substance abuse. We need to understand that that is one of the side effects of substance abuse is people that will eventually get to the hopeless situation, they can't find a way out of the darkness, and they want to end it. They want to end the suffering, the pain. Another one is chronic illness. Chronic illness is another one where we're finding more and more of those that are 50 and older that are taking their lives, Alzheimer's, seeing a loved one go through that. That that this type of suffering, and that we need to reach out to those with the hope that they can get, first of all, seek out the best help you can and not be silent about it. Just continue on. I think the other thing is prayer. Prayer is so essential, and many times we try everything else first, and then, well, everything else has failed, let's try prayer. When in fact, that if we will seek out the Lord, He is one who helps the helpless, those that cry out. And I think also, as you mentioned about your brother David Wells, who speaks out very strongly about bullying, uh, we are living in a very cruel society. And particularly kids see that very early on, the cruelty that is going on and the pressure that goes on. And parents need to be aware to expect it of their kids and help them to be able to stand by reinforcing that they're valuable, reinforcing that doesn't matter about their brains, their brawn, their physical, their their beauty, their their uh buddies, their I call it the five B's, or their bucks, you know, the money they have. They are valuable because they're created in the image of God. And we need to reassure people that sometimes we need to understand ourselves that we need not be so enamored with the outside of the person. But as it says in 1 Samuel, man looketh on the outside, but God looketh on the heart. And we need to reach out to those. The other thing that I think is important that I want to leave is that there'll be some who are struggling with it, especially those that have suicidal thoughts, that sometimes their reaction is that like a hurt animal, they'll want to be left alone. They'll be a loner, they'll be very quiet, they'll say there's no problem. They'll try to get in the corner, so to speak, and ask you to leave them alone. And it can't. Don't leave them alone. You need to reach out to them because down deep inside they're saying, I'm telling you I don't I want to be left alone, but inwardly I'm saying, please don't give up on me. Please, you know, constantly reinforce. I I I need I need you. I've had Several who have dealt with and they said, I know I told you that, but I'm glad you didn't give up on me. Don't give up on these folks there.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

So I tell you, is if there's someone out there who needs a little bit more counseling or direction or prayer, do you have contact information that that maybe like a website or email or something like that? Maybe get a holy view. I mean, we talked about as far as Dr. Gibbons and Michael Moore having the counseling and wellness center in the three different locations, is basically have one in Belperie, Ohio. They have two in West Virginia, one in Parkersburg, and also one in Taze Valley. But you can go to their website, Counseling and Wellness Center, just Google it, and that'll direct you right to their path and so forth. But I didn't know if you'd be understanding giving that information if someone has a question or concern or something that we didn't mention here, but needs maybe needs a little bit more help.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Yeah, I'm I'm not a professional counselor, but uh I do give biblical counseling and encourage. Uh if there is questions or uh something that just needs clarity or something, that'd be more than happy to have them contact me and uh I can give uh my email address so they can contact me and that I think another person that I like to recommend is uh at Westbrook here health services, and there's a a Christian fellow by the name of Tim Baer. Tim uh Baer is B-A-E-R, a really solid guy, and he is a friend of Tim Kraft, who you've had on the podcast and the previously who deals with substance abuse. But uh Tim Bear is a professional uh counselor with Westbrook Health Services, mental health services here in Parkersburg. And uh you can contact him by getting on Westbrook's website and he can direct you to the proper help that you need and professional help. My way uh my uh my email address is uh just simply lowercase is BibleBaptistR4 at Juno.com and uh try to answer you as quickly as possible.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

I think the biggest thing is basically don't be alone, you know. Absolutely get help, whether it be through a friend, family member, pastor, your doctor, family doctor, or healthcare wellness, mental wellness specialist and so forth. But anyway, if there's I really appreciate Pastor Dan coming on speaking on this difficult topic. I mean, it was difficult, but I want to basically if there's something that you may have a question or there might be something in the health and wellness arena. If you're interested in us doing a little bit of research and speaking on that, you can always email me at Eaglesway Ministries at gmail.com, and that's Eaglesway Ministries at gmail.com, and I'd be more than happy to see what we can do for you or help you out in that situation. But until next time, keep advancing.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Thank you for listening to Soaring in Health and Wellness with Dr. Steve Wells and his guest. We would like to thank our sponsor, Mountaineer Chiropractic. For more information, go online to mountaineerchiro.com. If you'd like to be a sponsor or help support Soaring in Health and Wellness Podcast, please go to the web at Eaglesway Ministries.org and select the patron page in the top menu bar. If you or your business or church would like Dr. Steve Wells to speak at your church special event or conference, please go online to Eaglesways Ministries.org and select contact on the menu bar. Or send an email to Eaglesway Ministries at gmail.com or call 304-485-6589. Until next time, think of Isaiah chapter 40, verses 29 through 31. It gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall. Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will sword wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.