"Hope in the Valley: Suicide Awareness, Healing, and the Journey Back to Life"

Podcast Summary: Suicide Awareness – Finding Hope in the Valley

In this important episode of Soaring In Health & Wellness, Dr. Steve Wells is joined by licensed professional counselor Michael Moore and addictions counselor Dr. Stephen Givens to discuss suicide awareness from both a clinical and Biblical perspective. The conversation explores the reality that suicide is often the result of mental illness—particularly depression—rather than a rational or selfish decision. The guests explain how depression affects the brain, emotions, and thought processes, causing individuals to lose sight of hope and their ability to make healthy choices. They discuss the influence of family dynamics, genetics, neurochemistry, trauma, substance abuse, and life transitions, emphasizing that depression and suicidal thoughts can affect anyone regardless of age, status, or background. 

The episode also focuses on hope, prevention, and practical ways to help those who are struggling. Listeners are encouraged to recognize warning signs, take suicidal statements seriously, and have the courage to engage in difficult but life-saving conversations. Michael and Stephen stress the importance of walking alongside individuals through their valleys, helping them connect with trained professionals, family, pastors, and support systems. Drawing from Scripture and inspiring comeback stories, the discussion reminds listeners that their value comes from God, that no one has to face depression alone, and that healing is possible. Just as Isaiah 40 promises, those who place their hope in the Lord can find renewed strength and soar above life's darkest challenges. 

Key Takeaways

•  Suicide is most often linked to mental illness, particularly depression, rather than a rational choice. 
•  Depression can distort thinking, obscure hope, and make everyday life feel overwhelming. 
•  Risk factors include family history, genetics, substance abuse, chronic illness, trauma, bullying, loss, and major life transitions. 
•  Warning signs include hopelessness, withdrawal, mood changes, increased alcohol or drug use, sleep disturbances, and talking about death or suicide. 
•  Take all suicidal comments seriously and never dismiss them as attention-seeking behavior. 
•  Early intervention and professional counseling can significantly improve outcomes and save lives. 
•  Family members, friends, pastors, and healthcare providers can play a critical role by offering support and encouragement. 
•  No one should walk through life's valleys alone; simply being present can make a tremendous difference. 
•  God-given worth and purpose remain unchanged, even when depression causes individuals to doubt their value. 
•  There is hope for a comeback, healing, and renewed strength through faith, support, and appropriate care. 

Transcript

Speaker 0:00

Hello, and thank you for listening to Soaring in Health and Wellness with Dr. Steve Wells. Dr. Wells is a chiropractic physician with a passion to help individuals reach new levels in health and wellness. He has been involved in the health and wellness field for over 30 years. Dr. Wells received his Bachelor of Science degree from Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma, with an emphasis in health and exercise science. He received his second Bachelor of Science degree in general sciences along with his Doctor of Chiropractic degree with honors from Palmer College of Chiropractic in Davenport, Iowa. Soaring in Health and Wellness is a tool to help educate individuals reach new levels in health and wellness and a passion to live with a sense of purpose and vitality. Dr. Wells and his guests, ranging from doctors from all areas of healthcare to educators, nurses, personal trainers, counselors, and pastors, will discuss and inform you on how to improve all dimensions of wellness from a biblical worldview perspective with one goal in mind: seeing you soar towards optimal health and wellness. If you're ready, let's get started with today's program with your host, Dr. Steve Wells.

Speaker 1 1:00

Welcome to another edition of Soaring in Health and Wellness with today's guests, Michael Moore and Dr. Stephen Givens. Michael Moore has served as a minister in the Church of Christ for the past 25 years. He has been a licensed professional counselor for the past 14 years. He has contracted with Ewing School for Developmental Disabled Students as well as Meredith City, Belpre City, and Warren Local School Districts as a behavior specialist. Dr. Stephen Gibbons is a nationally certified addictions counselor and has a passion for Christian counseling. He is also a co-owner of Counseling and Wellness Center of Ohio with his colleague Michael Moore. Welcome to the program. Wonderful to be here. Yes. Indeed. Boy, this comes back with a little bit of history. This is our take 32, take two. But anyway, today's uh program is basically talking about suicide awareness. The month of October is national awareness. And I had to ask Michael and Steve to come in and help me on this subject because this is not my wheelhouse. This is something they deal with probably on a regular basis as far as depression and other issues with mental illness, mental health. A lot of the information that I'm getting is far as from a book called Grace for the Afflicted by Dr. Matthew Stanford. Dr. Stanford is the CEO of the Hope and Healing Center and Institute in Houston and is an adjunct professor in the Miniature Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Baylor College of Medicine and the Department of Psychology at the University of Houston. He is the author of over 100 peer-reviewed journal articles in psychology, psychiatry, and neuroscience. Kay Warren notes I wholeheartedly recommend grace for the afflicted for any pastor or church leader who is looking for a reliable resource or understanding mental illness and treatment from a biblical perspective. Dr. Matthew Stanford's extensive background as a neurobiologist is shaped by his vibrant and personal faith in God as our wounded healer who has compassion in his children who suffer. Another source that I'll be using is Health the Basis by Rebecca Donatelli. And Dr. Stanford opens up his chapter, I believe it's chapter 14 in Grace for the Afflicted, by a quote by Dr. Peter Kramer and says, Suicide is what the death certificate says when one dies of depression.

unknown 3:21

Dr.

Speaker 1 3:21

Stanford describes suicide as a word that provokes fear, shame, and sadness. Some have called suicide a selfish act and a permanent answer to temporary problems. He continues to explain that both of these statements wrongly imply that suicide is a reason and rational decision to take one's life. Since its beginning, the church has struggled with understanding the spiritual consequences of suicide at times, even refusing burial or religious rights to the victim because they were thought to have committed an unforgiven mortal sin, damning to hell. Additionally, he notes that suicide is neither reason nor rational, and mental illness is the most common cause. On last week's program, we spoke a lot on depression and pretty much what depression was, the signs, uh, the risk factors, and so forth. But uh I want to open up as far as having Michael kind of give his input as far as the comments as far as the Susan Awareness, depression, if you could do that in the Absolutely.

Speaker 3 4:19

You know, I'm especially struck by the uh moral implications that have many been many times been ascribed to suicide. And I think that is really deeply rooted in the misunderstanding. As the individual said, that the church overall has sometimes had a very negative viewpoint of individuals who have either attempted or committed suicide. And those same people would not have judged a person who had died from cancer or or any other illness because they realized that it wasn't their choice. Somehow people think that those who commit suicide did so by choice. But an understanding of depression really is that that person had lost the ability to choose, that their mindset, their ability to think had been so corrupted by the depressive symptoms and by both the the thinking, the emotional changes that had taken place, that they were no longer able to make the decision to continue living, something that we take for granted every day.

Speaker 2 5:28

And you know, when it comes to being in that valley, you know, I know we talked about this before, you know, I can never I always had my mountaintops and my valleys. I couldn't appreciate those mountaintops without my valleys. But when we stay in those valleys too long, that's typically where we can really find where those depression symptoms can really take over, where those inabilities to be able to make those choices that we really want to be able to make. What makes it really hard for the perspective of someone who's not in those valleys is sometimes when we're not there, we we have more gas in our tank here to really hold us up and to really make the decisions with those. And it's hard for us to really put ourselves in those shoes of someone who doesn't have that ability. Because a lot of us, we really do have a lot of choices and we don't really find ourselves too often in the position where we don't really have a choice.

Speaker 3 6:19

Yeah, but yeah. I I think of of um, you know, if I know where all the furniture is in my bedroom, and yet sometimes, yeah. And I'm glad. But uh but sometimes that uh, you know, I'll get up and go to the bathroom at night, and and despite knowing where my furniture is, my little toe has a way of finding that corner of the bed, and I will kick it, and and the pain will be there. And and there's a part of me that wonders, why did I kick that bed? I knew it was there. The problem is that I just in the darkness, I misjudge and I'm not really able to see. And that's really what depression is, is that the person is not able to see what is there in their life. Depression completely obscures the ability to see what is good, what is hopeful. Anything about the future that might give them a glimmer of something to look forward to is completely obscured in the darkness of depression.

Speaker 1 7:22

I'd say we had talked about the first time we tried to get this program going. The Maslow's hierarchy needs and so forth. And anyway, if Steve, you can kind of describe those as before, as far as the uh the basic, you know, survival needs type deal, as far as the the pyramid, like you had mentioned earlier, as far as when we did this before, as far as your food pyramid.

Speaker 2 7:46

Yes, you know. Yeah, so I remember back in in high school, they used to do the you know, the our health class. We we talked about the food pyramid, and the food pyramid, you always have the the bottom that has a lot of the carbohydrates and your top Tippety top, you have the all your fats and sweets and the good stuff, uh, you know, I guess. But uh but why do we have this pyramid? We have this pyramid because it gives us an idea of what a well-balanced diet is, and that was the whole purpose of that. So Maslow's hierarchy of needs was developed in the same essence. You know, for us to get up to those emotional or psychological needs and stuff there, we got to go through a few uh stages of this pyramid to get up to that. And that's that's really the hard part when it comes to a lot of when when people are dealing with someone who has some suicidal ideations and thoughts because they just don't know what to do. They think, well, if I could give them advice or if I could, you know, help help them see this the light here, then maybe they'll they'll feel better. But in Maslow's hierarchy needs, the the very bottom on his hierarchy is those survival needs. This is things like your food, water, sleep, exercise, you know, and then after that, then we got to go to the next level and looking at security needs, and that's shelter, safety, and protection. And then once we got those two things really set in place, then you can really work yourself into things like social needs, looking at, you know, belonging, affection, some acceptance, and then esteem needs come after that with some self-respect, respect for others and accomplishment. And then at the very tip of the topic is what Maslow talked about is the self-actual actualization. And in this is uh things like uh creativity, spirituality, fulfillment of potential. And Maslow was really, really big about how to how a person can reach their full potential trying to get there. And he would often say that whenever we get to the peak, you can't stay up there. There's not a way for us to be able to do that. It's kind of like when you climb Mount Everest, a lot of people, when they get up to that summit, you have to go at certain times or you cannot stay up there. You only have so much oxygen for you to get up there, see it, and be able to get back just as quickly before you run out on doing those. So, really, we really have to look at especially those first two. When you're looking at those survival and the security needs, those things really need to be established first before we can ever get into the things like those emotional connections or try to give advice or do any of those things because they're far beyond that before we get to it.

Speaker 1 10:24

Well, thanks. Uh T as far as if we look at the factors that actually affluence psychological health, a big factor they say is family. Families have a significant influence on psychological development. Children raised in healthy, nurturing homes are more likely to become well-adjusted and productive adults. In adulthood, family support is one of the best predictors of health and happiness. And this is by Rundick, Yeager, King, and Damon. And children raised in dysfunctional families in which there is violence, distrust, anger, dietary deprivation, drug abuse, parental discord, or sexual, physical, or emotional abuse may have a harder time adapting to life and may run an increased risk of psychological problems. In dysfunctional families, love, security, and unconditional trust may be so lacking that children become psychologically damaged, yet not all people raised in dysfunctional families become psychologically unhealthy, and not all people from healthy environments become well adjusted.

Speaker 3 11:21

That is so true about the the environmental factor. Whenever a child is born, they start making up their mindset about the world. From a very early age, when they're crying, if someone is there to give them what they need, uh feed them, hold them, they start believing that the world is a safe place. And if someone is not there to provide for those early basic needs, then they start believing that the world is a place that is a threatening place, a place that you can't get those needs met. So those early family origins really do define something that we refer to in in this industry as resilience. And a person will struggle to have resilience if they see the world as a dangerous place full of threats, and that makes anxiety greater as well as depression.

Speaker 2 12:16

I often like to tell people, you know, especially in those early ages, I like what Mike's saying, I often think of it like a candle. If I took a you know, a wick and I started dipping that thing into wax, and I did that tens of thousands of times, I I develop a candle. And so the same thing even goes as where we really develop good, what we call secure attachments, and really developing those, it helps to develop that nervous system so it's well prepared for that resiliency whenever we're looking at the world through that lens. Because if you don't have that fully developed, then you can find yourself in a very scary place. And when you're constantly in that survival mode with those, the options or choices that we've talked about earlier, they they become more limited.

Speaker 1 13:00

Right. I tell you, you kind of wonder, I I kind of wonder as far as what are some of the, you know, what would cause somebody to think about committing suicide, so forth, other than the family factors and so forth. Dr. Stanford, from his background and in his education, he talks about some of the neurobiology issues that could affect someone's decision, such as that neuroanatomy issues, neurochemistry. So I kind of like to hit base on those just a little bit, if we could. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 13:30

I I'd like to, you know, the the neurobiology and anatomy are better understood, I think, through the context of neurochemistry. To kind of describe the neurochemistry of the brain, the brain talks to the rest of the body and and other with other parts of the brain through a series of neurotransmissions. And if you look at the nerve tracts within the body, those are made up by a series of neurons that that every nerve cell that sits close to the next one and it forms a chain. They don't touch. And that little space in between them is called a synapse. And the way that one nerve talks to the nerve next to it is by emitting these neurotransmitters across that synapse. And those neurotransmitters are things like serotonin, norepinephrine, and a host of others. And when there's not enough neurotransmitters available in the system, then one nerve has trouble talking to the one beside of it. It's a slower transmission. And that really is what happens with depression is that there's a depletion of these neurotransmitters. One of the key players there is serotonin. And as a result of that, everything that the person does, their thinking is altered. They think slower, they move slower, they talk slower. Many times their emotions are compromised simply because they do not have enough of these neurotransmitters. I liken it to taking a shower and about half of the little holes in the shower head are clogged. You can still get a shower. Yeah. You can still get a shower, but it's going to take you a lot longer to get that shower simply because you just don't have as much of what you need. And that's really the what depression is that these people are still functioning. They're still going. They look normal from the outside. But inside, everything is harder, just living. Wow. I'm just sitting here just wondering. Lord.

Speaker 2 15:37

What is it with you in bathrooms and shit?

Speaker 3 15:40

Well, you know, I spend a lot of time there. Oh, okay. Okay.

Speaker 2 15:44

Yeah, you know, uh, so I'm going to go with the biology a little bit there. If I looked in your ear and I would find this ball, and on this ball is where your brain sits, and then this ball is what we call your limbic system. And this limbic system is a very, very important part of the brain because it really helps you in these times where where threats come up and where you're in that valley, this thing gets activated. But within that limbic system, there is a little uh piece that's called your amygdala, and it gets its name because it's an almond shape, and amygdala in the Latin word means almond. But what happens is going back to Mike's uh illustration there, when he was talking about getting out of his bed and he he stubs his toe at the end of his end of his uh furniture, what happens there is his amygdala goes off and it acts like a radar and it says, Hey, ouch, that really, really hurt. So when he comes back around, his amygdala goes off and says, Hey, watch out, buddy. You hit that thing before and it hurt. You don't want to do that. But let's say that Mike does that every single night, every, you know, and every time he gets up, then that amygdala literally grows from an almond to a walnut, and it grows about three to four times its size there, and it's overwhelmed. And now, because it has has grown so big, it becomes ultra-sensitive to things around it, where things that are not threats normally now become threats. So now he's not just worried about that furniture at the end of the now, he's working worried about every fair piece of furniture in that whole room, in the whole house, and even outside wherever he goes. He's so paralyzed with those. And when you're in survival mode, you can only burn both sides of the candle for so long. I don't care who you are. And whenever you burn out there and that light seems like it's about to go out, then you're talking some suicide because those choices and those things are you get exhausted with those. And a lot of people, that's where we just uh don't typically get to connect with that because we we don't burn out our candles a whole lot. You know, we we take on choices, our amygdalas work what they should. Hey, watch out. Okay, I'm good, and I'll walk around. But when it's a constant thing that keeps coming at you, then it becomes in a survival mode and that light starts to flicker.

Speaker 1 18:00

I wanted to mention something about the heritability. They say family studies have clearly demonstrated suicide runs in families, their relatives, suicidal individuals are five times more likely to display suicidal behavior themselves compared to the general population.

Speaker 3 18:15

Absolutely. That one of the things, and it's unfortunate because some of that means that some people will have a predisposition to depression, and therefore a predisposition to suicidal thinking through no fault of their own, through nothing that in their surroundings that caused it. A lot of times we think of depression as being something that is, well, you went through a hard time, or you had a lot of stress in your life, or a lot of things, bad uh things happen to you. Sometimes it's just your genetics that you'll be going along, everything is fine, but because you are predisposed to depression, it may just hit you out of left field. And those people, it really is, when we talk about prevention, uh it's very difficult for those people because they are going to experience some of these no matter what they do. There are things that they can do to help to ameliorate those things, and there are some things they can do to help make them less intense when they show up in preparation for them. But but there are some people who are just the way that their brains are structured, they're the such as the sensibil the sensitivity of the amygdala, their prefrontal cortex. Those are structures in the brain that are going to be differentiated in size and sensitivity just from their heritage.

Speaker 2 19:39

And you might think about it in the in the sense of like your metabolism. Everybody has different types of metabolism. Some people, you know, they can go fast and they they could eat everything they want there. And and boy, they're they're skinny as can be because their metasmabolism goes so fast. There are people who just look at bread and they start gaining weight there just because their metasm metabolism is going so slow. It is always the uh the argument of nature versus nurture. It's always been there. Which one is it? And the answer is yes. So you know, both of these have an effect on this. And even as Mike is saying, in those brains, there are certain things in in the brain that really can trigger those without a with without the direct consciousness that you're trying to be able to give that. You don't have to go through a bad experience to be able to hit those. It can just automatically be.

Speaker 1 20:33

All right. Well, I see what we're gonna go ahead and take a break and kind of gather our thoughts again. But anyway, so we'll be back shortly.

Speaker 20:42

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Speaker 1 21:03

Welcome back to Soaring Health and Wellness with today's guests, Michael Moore and Dr. Stephen Givens. Today's topic is suicide awareness, and we were just finishing up on the causes and factors can influence psychological health, such as family, neuroanatomy, neurobiology, neurochemistry. Now we're going to discuss as far as prevalence and age onset. So they say approximately 40,000 individuals die by suicide in the United States. Estimated that there is one suicide death for every 25 attempts. The tenth most common cause of death for all ages, for comparison, homicide is 17th, with middle-aged adults accounting for the largest population of suicides, 56%. The third most common cause of death among children and adolescents ages 10 through 14, and the second among those 15 through 24. If you look at the National Institute of Mental Health, they say approximately 34,000, but experts estimate that there may actually Be closer to 100,000 cases. The discrepancy is the due to the difficulty in determining the causes of many suicide deaths.

Speaker 3 22:09

Yeah, a lot of times people, whenever we see these statistics, they give you age ranges. But what I'm finding is that in in practice, you really start realizing that this has to do with stages of life rather than ages. And the reason that these particular ages show up in the statistics is because if you look at what a lot of people are going through at these times, that 15 to 24, they are coming out of those elementary years, which are many times the easier of the school years, and they're heading into the more formative high school and then into college years. Huge transitions in their life. And not everyone makes those transitions smoothly, and not everyone is able to navigate those. We didn't mention it in our statistics here, but also another huge, probably the largest population of those who in their own life are the are the elderly. And that is also due to the stage of life that they're in. They've lost a lot of their social circle, a lot of their friends have already passed on, their health is declining, they've lost their purpose of their maybe their employment, they're retired now, they're not able to have as much contact with family. And so as a result, that stage of life is just so difficult that many of them slip into a depression.

Speaker 1 23:27

You know, I tell you what, they mention college ages too.

Speaker 2 23:30

Oh, yes. You know, it's interesting, just on piggyback a little bit here off mic, is you know, the the elderly on that, it actually ranked number one there with the ages with that. And actually your college ages was one of the actually one of the lower ones out of that. Yes. And it's just a disillusion with this. But again, when it comes to college, just another transition, as Mike is saying, another stage. When you when when you have to make the transition from being so dependent on parents and connecting to being standing on your own two feet and independence, that is a lot of adjustment, not just in the in the world, but it's a lot of adjustment on the brain. The brain has to go through a whole lot just to be able to get to the there's a wonderful book. I recommend it to anybody there, and by Dr. Daniel Siegel. He talks about the neurobiological standpoints for the adolescent brain. And he has uh has a uh book called Brainstorm, and he talks about the essence of the adolescent brain and what they kind of go through. It it's just a whole lot for them. And what what is really scary though, just in the in the last couple decades, suicide rates have actually increased 30%.

Speaker 1 24:42

Wow, what they're if you all could talk a little bit as far as gender, you know, women versus men, a lot of times you hear women, you know, are more likely to have suicidal thoughts and three times more likely to attempt suicide, but then you see men die by suicide for at a greater rate than women.

Speaker 3 25:00

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, there's you know, I think a lot of this with gender difference is just how individuals cope. Women are much more verbal, they're much much more willing to express to other people what they're thinking and feeling. And and a lot of times that that means that when a per when a woman is feeling depressed, there's probably pe a lot of people around her that are close to her going to know it because she is more likely to tell them about what she's feeling. And whereas men have a tendency to not express that. And they could be very depressed, and maybe nobody at work or nobody in their family has any idea of the thoughts that are going through their head. So men are mess less likely to get help dealing with those things. And and really there is a big difference in how not just how they cope, but the impact that it has. Women may be more likely to attempt suicide or or tell people that they're thinking about it, but they're is they're less lethal. Many times they do so with pills and things like that, and there is a chance for intervention. Men, on the other hand, are much more violent in the way that they attempt suicide, and so therefore their likelihood of being successful in that is much higher. They're more likely to use firearms.

Speaker 4 26:22

Wow.

Speaker 3 26:24

Ditto.

Speaker 1 26:27

I'd say as far as some of the risk factors that actually would cause someone, and they say individuals living with mental illness are at greatly increased risk of suicide. Approximately 90% of those who die by suicide are suffering from a psychiatric disorder at the time of death. And this is by Kavanaugh, psychology autopsy studies of suicide. But also some other additional risks that you see, Mike, that could be an issue.

Speaker 3 26:52

Well, I think that when a person is starting to feel depressed, and a lot of times they'll try their own methods to try to deal with that. And so some that often means that they start relying on alcohol more, maybe other drugs to try to self-medicate. Unfortunately, many of the drugs that they're using are also depressants, such as alcohol, and it they end up compounding their problems. So any history of alcohol or drug abuse definitely increases by a drastic measure the likelihood of suicidal thoughts.

Speaker 2 27:26

And you know, the thing about that is, you know, I can really understand where people are coming from. What they really want, what their heart really wants is relief. They want to be able to have connection. They want to be able to see the sunny side again. They want to get back on that mountaintop, if you will. But when they go and instead of turning to a person, they're turning to the bottle or they're turning uh to the to the needle here to be able to find that relief. And although it may be something that's temporary to help them escape, then it comes back and fold where now I've got two problems. I have the problem that I had before, and now I've got an addiction problem on top of that, and which just makes that uh Mount Everest look ever so more steeping.

Speaker 1 28:12

I tell you, Stephen, I just want to ask you a question in this. Okay, this is my first one, right? Oh, okay, all right. I just want to get a little bit of input on the opioid epidemic. A lot of, you know, you know, as far as Tim Kraft and his high-on hope of ministries, they do a lot with addictions. Yeah. Uh, opioids seem to be a big issue in West Virginia as around the world type deal. So and you're saying that a lot of those are basically deaths by opioid addiction type deal?

Speaker 2 28:41

Well, you know, West Virginia in itself actually is we are ranked as number one in our prescriptions for opioids in the entire nation. We are second in benzoids. It's not the type of ranking that you really want to be proud of here with this, but it is it is extremely uh there's a huge need for for help here. And it they found out back in uh 2006 that one out of every 10 people become addicted. In 2008, it went down to one out of every eight. In 2012, one out of every six people now it become, and now that's a couple years old here, I would venture to say. Now we're probably down to one every three or four that we're really getting to that point. When a person is going to cross over that line, if you have somebody in your family that is who who is addicted or has drank, has a history with those, you're four to five times more likely to cross over to that line. And when you cross over that line to that addiction around, everything starts going down. You start losing stuff. I start losing friends, I start losing money, I start losing respect, I start losing my sanity. And if it keeps on going, it has one end, I I lose my life. When a person crosses over to that line, we found out that one out of every three people will survive. Wow. So you have literally a 33% chance of living. Wow. Wow. So a lot of times, and it's it's hard, especially when I have uh you know, parents and people who come in and they they want to be able to want me to help them out. You know, if I was a doctor that was going to do surgery, I'd say, you know, I'm gonna take your kid in, I'm gonna give him treatment. He's got a 33% chance of living, he's got 10% brain power to work with here. Because it's not the fact that just of wanting to go do it, it's not just about a desire, it's an impulsivity that the brain literally controls 90% of their thought processes. And the same thing even goes when you're getting down to that suicidal thing. It's not that they just want to, it literally is that their brain has taken over with those and sees no options on it.

Speaker 1 30:44

Well, I tell you some of the other risk factors they talk about as stressful life events such as a divorce, death in a family, loss of a job, you know, prolonged stressful circumstances, uh, such as harassment and bullying. We had talked uh with David as far as a couple weeks ago, as far as on anti-bullying, the psychological effects of everyone involved in that scenario. We also talked about chronic health conditions, chronic pain. You know, the family history of suicide attempts all are all factors that can increase suicide risk. And Mike, as far as once an individual has attempted suicide, it says they are increased risk for future attempts.

Speaker 3 31:22

You know, once a person has gone down that road, the the brain sees that as an option. It's one of those things that that for many people they do not see suicide as an option because it's just something that they they they've never gone there. But once a person has gotten to that point in their life where they have seriously considered to the point of maybe even attempting suicide, that option now is there. And so when they start to feel that depression again or they start to feel similar feelings like that, that option starts to become even more likely. And again, that option can be opened not only by the person, but by their family. If they have had a a parent or a sibling that has attempted suicide, just being that close to it and having it be that become a part of your life that that almost opens the door to that option. So anytime that we see someone who themselves or a close relative has attempted or committed suicide, that always raises the risk factor in our minds.

Speaker 2 32:36

Whenever my brains sends a message down to my little finger and says wiggle, it it sends a message over 200 miles an hour straight down to my finger. And what happens is I imagine if I put a string from my brain to my finger. It's very small. But if I send that same message again, now I've got two strings, and I do it three or four times, now that string has enlarged, that path there has become enlarged, just as Mike was talking about earlier. Now that highway becomes more and more easier access to get to that point. The same thing even goes as when that option is there, yeah, good or bad, it's an option and it's a first string. And when you see that or when you attempt it, or when it becomes available, now it becomes an easier path to get to.

Speaker 1 33:23

Well, I think. As far as some of the warning signs, uh, Dr. Stanford in his book notes, communicating ideas of suicide or a desire to die is the single strongest indicator of increased suicide risk. This can go by threats to hurt or kill oneself, looking for ways to kill oneself, such as pills, weapons, other means, and talking or writing about death, dying, or suicide. I'm gonna start with Dr. Stephen here. Or some of the additional warning signs as far as it may kind of alert you to someone's in trouble.

Speaker 2 33:53

Sure, right? There's uh multiple ones that, you know, I think we've maybe mentioned already, but uh to add to those, you know, increased drug or alcohol use, no reason to live, they have no real sense of purpose in their life, seeing that tunnel kind of close or that light starting to fade, even uh having anxiety, uh, agitation, inability to sleep, or sleeping all the time, either way with those, feeling trapped, like there's no way out, some hopelessness, withdrawal from friends, family, and society, rage, uncontrolled anger, seeking revenge, acting recklessly, or engaging in risky activities, seemingly without thinking, dramatic mood changes. These can be all warnings to heed to.

Speaker 1 34:34

Okay. David Rudd makes a note, warning signs for suicide. He states that it is important to remember that warning signs are only meaningful as a collection or group. The presence of a single isolated warning sign is usually not reflective of increased suicide risk.

Speaker 3 34:51

Yeah, it's one of those things where it's kind of like if you're gathering evidence to make a case. You you don't you don't build a case on one piece of evidence. And with this is that when you start seeing multiple areas of life, and and if you notice these that what Stephen was saying, that those areas cover those risk factors cover different areas of our life. Social, your your own psychological health, occupational, physical health. So when you're nip seeing it hit multiple areas, you're not sleeping, or you're sleeping a lot. That hits that physical part. Your appetite changes. You start losing weight. That's that physical. Then you start seeing, noticing that, oh, they're not going out with friends as much. They're withdrawing and they're bowing out of social events. They're saying, no, you all go ahead. I don't feel like it. That's hitting their social lives. They're being late for work, they're they're taking more sick days, it's hitting their occupation. You know, so when you start seeing these symptoms show up in multiple areas of life, that's when you start saying, Hey, this is this is a problem. Any any of us can have these factors, and we all do have these factors in one or two areas of life. But when they start hitting multiple areas, that's that's a real sign.

Speaker 1 36:10

I say we use as a as a husband or a wife or a father or or mother type deal. We really need to be more aware. We just can't be living in our own little tunnel vision. You know, but especially when it comes to our children, if it comes to our family and friends, like that, everybody's so focused on their goals and aspirations that they don't really are observant and have a wide peripheral vision as far as seeing maybe someone that either works in the next cubicle like that, that's having issues. But if we just a little bit more observant, notice these signs, you know, and a little bit more concern. I think you know, we all just need to do this. And that's why I kind of do this program is kind of help us kind of reach and kind of look out for one another. Some of the preventive strategies would you say, as far as what we can do to kind of help prevent suicide?

Speaker 3 37:01

I think one of the biggest things we can do is we need to increase communication. If you're the one that's having these thoughts and feelings, do not keep them to yourself. You need to tell somebody, talk about what you're thinking, talk about what you feel. If you're starting to see the these symptoms maybe in a spouse or or a father or mother, uh, your child, don't be afraid to ask and say, hey, I'm concerned. You know, it's okay. You know, sometimes I feel some of these things too. The key here is normalizing the fact that many of us, in fact, it is not an isolated thing to struggle with these things, even though it feels isolating. The person who's experienced and thinks they're the only one who feels like this. And if we can normalize it and say, hey, you know, I have felt like this too, it allows that person that safe zone to be able to say some of the things. We people are so afraid that they're gonna shock people or they're gonna let somebody down, or that people don't really want to hear this. We have to let people know in our lives that we do want to hear, that we are open and ready to listen.

Speaker 2 38:10

You know, I've never I've never met anybody who hasn't gone through a valley, right? I just I just haven't. And it's really important that we can really help people to not walk alone. And just as Mike is saying, when people see somebody who's down or even to that point, they're really scared because they're not trained in this. They they don't know what to look for, they don't know what to do with those. And you know, what's really important is is if I can even just be present, can make all the difference in the world. You know, not even that I have to give advice or have to be able to, you know, you're not trained in this, and nobody's expecting you to have to be this the savior here with it. We already got one, so we don't we don't need you to have to, but what we can do is help point in the direction. Get them to somebody who can be able to to help out, who is trained to be able to take on these conversations, these hard, but have the brave conversation. Hey, let's talk. You look like you're down in a valley. I've been there, but I want to see where you're at because I want to help you.

Speaker 1 39:07

Well, I think it's you know, and I tell you, I think you hit it right there on the head as far as you know, you're you're kind of afraid to have that conversation because you're thinking I'm not qualified to work. So if I'm that individual and my friend is talking these thoughts about suicide, what is is what's my re what what do I do then that someone comes, hey, listen, you know what, I'm having these thoughts, I'm having this discussion. What is my responsibility? What do I need to do at that time? Do I, you know, do I dial 911 and say or you know, what's what what's my step as far as being the person in support, you can be able to do the big thing is it's like you you've been just given a candle with a light.

Speaker 2 39:49

And when you have that light, the best thing to do is to spread that light so that it illuminates the room. Because the more that we see, the better it is for us to be able to get that help to the person in need. You know, if I and we can do this in multiple ways, like you're talking about, you can call 911, go to the emergency room so they this person can get assessed. Talk to uh you know if it's a kid, talk to their parents, get to people who can point in the direction to get to those. They can definitely call to our our center or um for those those needs. But a lot of those steps is is basically spreading the light first. Let people know, hey, let's go talk to somebody about this, or let's talk to someone who can point us in the direction. I don't know. If if I'm a bad person and I don't know, I I want to be finding someone who does know. That's that's the point.

Speaker 3 40:37

Yeah, I think if if we ask ourselves and say, what if what if that friend came to you and you talked to them and they said, Hey, I I'm having these, I'm having these flutters in my heart. I don't know what it is, but I'm having some pain and I'm having some flutters and I don't know what it is. You're not a heart surgeon, you're not a cardiologist. So you'd really don't know what to say to them. But what you can do is you can say, Listen, I don't think we should ignore this. Exactly. Let's get you let's get you to the doctor. You know, let's do this. Let no, let's not wait. You know, don't wait. Let's go do it. I'll go with you. The same thing is the case is that if it's not the heart, it's the mind. And if their mind is faltering, if they're not thinking clearly, help them get to those professionals that can help.

Speaker 2 41:24

I love what Mike's saying, especially the biggest part of the have a willingness to walk through the valley with them.

Speaker 4 41:30

Yes.

Speaker 2 41:31

Well, that's that just means the whole world. Just being present with them just can make a world of difference with those. And and being able to take that step that, hey, you don't got to do this alone. I'm not gonna leave you out there for the, you know, in the ocean all by yourself here, you know, without without a raft. Uh I want to be a raft with you. I want to go with you to where we need to go to get this checked out. Yeah.

Speaker 1 41:55

Right. I'd say uh Dr. Stanford, he has a great point, I believe, as far as when it comes to screening, it says Dr. Stanford basically explains that if your loved one falls into an at-risk suicide group, such as mental illness, substance abuse, get them to a physician or mental health care provider sooner rather than later to be assessed. He continues to note that contact with a primary care physician or mental health care provider is not uncommon for those having suicidal thoughts. Research shows that 75% of suicide victims had contact with their primary care physician in the year of their suicide. 45% of those had contact in the month of their death. And this is by LUAMA contact with mental health and primary care providers for suicide. Being aware of the warning signs, getting the at risk individual to professional help early, and being able to provide additional information when needed will make your loved ones' interactions with medical personnel more effective at preventing suicide. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 42:51

Primary care doctors are doing, I think, a much, much better job than in years past of screening for these things. Most primary care doctors are using screening tools such as uh BDI, the Beck Depression Inventory, or something similar. That's not a long, it's not a long screen, it's just a few questions. And based on how people answer those questions, it actually gives a numerical value of the level of depression that they might be exhibiting or experiencing at the time. And so therefore, if they hit those numbers at a certain rate, that triggers those health professionals to contact a mental health facility and make a referral to get them in.

Speaker 2 43:32

You know, especially looking at the medical field, a lot of people don't wait until they get cancer or something to find, you know, go see a doctor. Nowadays, you know, we go for a checkup, you know, annually or every couple of months with those. And it's it's say important to have that same practice with your mental health. Go in and help take a look at screening these symptoms before it can get to a point that it is. So the more that you can really do well to help um develop on your mental health, uh You can really prevent a lot of these things from happening.

Speaker 1 44:02

I'd say it's so true, not only in your field, but in my field as well, as far as chiropractic, a lot of people wait until their back is causing severeest pain. Yeah. You know, instead of being there more of a proactive, preventive, you know, you know, it's a good point is the dentist. You know, it's always good to go to a dentist before the cavity. I mean, I just had two, three teeth. Oh my gosh. I don't want to go through that again. Yeah. But anyway, so uh, but preventive is is excellent.

Speaker 2 44:27

You wanna yes, I I think that is really essential there. And and a lot of people, I I think we've we've watched too many movies. I I can promise you, you know, a lot of people come to my office, they're all surprised that, oh, this is this is nice. You know, they're they're like they were expecting to be, you know, uh straitjackets everywhere in pillowcases, uh, you know, pillowed room. And we really want to be able to help break that stigma because it really is we want to have a place where everybody deserves someone who will listen. And we want to be that place where someone can feel safe to be able to express themselves so that we can be able to help get treatment early on so that we can prevent things from happening.

Speaker 3 45:06

I'd say as far as treatment-wise, well, I think the gold standard for many years has been cognitive behavioral therapy, and that really is based on the idea that if you can get to helping a person change their thoughts, we have we all have automatic thoughts. The the world is happening all around us, and the way we think about is an interpretation of the world. And some people interpret the world with a more negative lens, an external locus of control, a sense of hopelessness, helplessness. And and really cognitive behavioral therapy is about changing the way that you think and thereby changing the way that you feel. If you think differently, you're gonna feel differently. But it's not the the only approach. There are also other approaches that are also equally viable and important to use.

Speaker 1 45:58

I'd say yeah, I want to talk about a little bit as far as some of the practical means that I can do, such as at home, so forth. If I have a family or a loved one, so forth, that you know, is having these different types of thoughts, what can we do? Uh Dr. Stanford kind of noted that restricting and at-risk individual access to lethal means is a common suicide prevention, but also some of the other strategies that we could do as far as things you would recommend.

Speaker 3 46:26

Well, I think one of the big things is that once a person knows that they are living with or in close connection with a person who is suffering with suicidal ideation is recognizing that if they have less access to the means by which they might be able to use, please. I can't emphasize enough for families, this is just a good practice, whether or not you're around, lock up your medicine. You need to have have medicine to where it is not easily accessible. Even if the other person is an adult and knows how to get to it, having it be in a locked container means they're going to have to go through one additional step before they get to that point. And sometimes not having it easily accessible is a very big help.

Speaker 2 47:16

Another thing they also keep in mind is just like you would with a with a child, you know, if I I I know my my child and I know how they act, I know what their normal behavior is. If something seems off about them, uh, you know, if they're feeling like that they're they're cold and they're not normally cold, you know, I'm I'm more likely to get that thermometer and go test them and have a check on them to see, hey, where are you at and helmet status? The same thing can be said even with uh mental health. It's okay to be able to have that kind of frequency. If they're kind of down, something's going on, just put that thermometer on them to check out, hey, what's going on? You okay? Let's talk a little bit there. Start those things there now to even make that a practice. Because if you can really make that a practice, then you can take them to the doctor. You can take them to the to the mental health specialist to be able to help before it gets worse. Right.

Speaker 1 48:06

I'd say so some of the things that you know we can actually do, like we've all talked about, or you know, you've talked about as far as kind of monitor the warning signs, which you discussed, you know, we need to take the threats seriously. Okay. We don't just don't brush them off as just talking. I, you know, sometimes you kind of think, you know, I kind of think, okay, when someone says something like, you know, I'm I'm thinking about that, you're thinking, is he kind of joking? Is he kind of kidding? You know? So, but in your back of your mind, you really need to think, okay, is this something serious and so forth? Again, you mentioned before as far as just letting going through that valley with them, letting them know that they care or you care, listen, and uh don't be afraid to ask him, you know, are you thinking about hurting yourself or killing yourself? I mean, that's I mean, I know that I feel uncomfortable. Hey, listen, you feel about killing yourself, hurting yourself? I mean, that just Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 48:54

They're not do that, but it's a brave conversation.

Speaker 4 48:56

Yeah.

Speaker 3 48:58

Especially in and I think one of the one of the populations that at risk for not being heard are those teens. I can't tell you the number of times I've had conversations with parents who they'll the child will be talking about suicide or or saying that they feel like hurting themselves. And the parent will ask me, Do you think they really mean it, or do you think they're just doing this for attention? That that that question should be a red flag. If you start asking yourself, well, I think maybe that my child is is doing this for attention because and they'll have other things. Well, they were doing this with their friends last night, oh, they were laughing last night. That does not mean that they're not seriously having thoughts. And one of the worst things that you can do is invalidate those thoughts by saying, I think you're just doing this for attention. Wow. So whether or not that thought crosses your mind, take it seriously.

Speaker 1 49:53

Okay. As far as seeking professional care, you know, as far as basically a physical ailment will readily send most of us to the nearest health professional. And you talked to us about this before. And I just want to ask you all, based on your profession, are you seeing a more, you know, awareness of people coming to you for, like you said, preventive. You know, are you seeing more of that? Is it because there was there was there was a stigma back and way back, so like that, you know, you're going to the mental health care providers like that. I just want to get your all's uh personal professional opinion, what you think about as far as that goes.

Speaker 2 50:31

Yeah, I I believe that it's it's definitely coming around. I think we're, you know, you you have to understand psychology just in itself is only a hundred years old, you know, here with this. We're we're still pretty new in the field with those in the in a sense. A lot of people often will take more, will put a lot of more weight into the medical because it's just been around a lot longer with those. But I definitely believe um people are now when a need becomes so great, people start turn tuning their ears to things of what really is important. And now I believe that as a society, people are coming around to really think that, yep, I really need to get in here and start talking to somebody because it's uh it's out of my uh expertise. I don't know what to do, but somebody needs to be be helped. And so it's coming.

Speaker 3 51:15

Yeah, I I don't often have the opportunity to uh to give uh props to celebrities because a lot of times they do they do some things that I that that I have to uh try to uh steer people's attention away from. But this is one of those areas that I think there's been some some real celebrity influence that some of these big name people have come out and publicly said, Hey, I struggle with anxiety, or hey, I I struggle with depression, and here's what I did. And that, in a sense, I think has done more to normalize the seeking, help seeking, and recognize that it's okay to say that you struggle with these things, that here are these people out here that are that millions of people look up to and they they value their work and they're still so important to society in many ways, and they struggle with depression too. So I think that really helps.

Speaker 2 52:08

You look at when you said that, my mind went to Robin Williams. You know, he he was a wonderful actor, voiceover, great uh comedian with this, and he and he he fell to suicide. I mean, and depression just overtook with this. But what an iconic person with this. It just shows the real and it still goes on. I still catch memes about that. And because of what has happened there, it's actually uh pushed people to want to go and get treatment early and stuff. Because boy, if if someone like this who is seen like they had it together could do that, man, oh man, maybe I should really talk to somebody.

Speaker 1 52:44

As far as now if we bring it home, all right, and let's say I was having these thoughts, what what basically do I need to do? When do I consider seeking help?

Speaker 3 52:54

Well, you know, everybody, and this is the big thing is that people always say is that, well, you know, am I just having a bad day? All of us have a bad day. And just because you have a bad day is not the reason necessarily to go out and seek or get in with counseling. What we really say is that when, as we said before, if it's across multiple areas of life, social, relational, occupational, physical, and you're having these thoughts and feelings more or less every day for two weeks. If you're going through a two-week period and you seem like every day has been a bad day, now you're at a point where now this is a problem. No one should be experiencing these symptoms every day uh for two weeks.

Speaker 2 53:43

There is a there's actually a wonderful app for all my techno people out there. There's a in Singapore. Yeah, that's right. Thank you. 43% of you. You guys are awesome. Uh I, you know, I I want to throw this out there to you. There's a wonderful app I I use for clients that's called Perspective, and it's a journaling app. And basically you get on there and it goes with the calendar days and you can just type up your days. Good things, bad things, whatever the case. Well, the thing I really love about this app is it also gives you the option to be able to, it has like a smiley face, a it goes green, yellow, and red. So it's happy face, sad face, and a middle face, whatever that is, I guess between there, but more of the neutral, if you will. But what I really like about this is it gives you an actual visual about how your days are going. And if I put myself on that calendar every single day and I start noticing, boy, I got a whole lot of reds here going on. You can probably bet that, hey, I'm in a valley. And when I'm in that valley, it's time to talk right here with us.

Speaker 1 54:44

I tell you, and we had talked at the break about about just, I don't know, like a God intervene type deal. And my my father basically, along with Tony Evans, I said, Tony Perkins. And he said, Steve is not Tony Perkins. Tony Perkins is white, Tony Evans is black, Tony Evans, so I said, Okay, it's a good thing I called him because I've been giving Tony Perkins the props, but anyway, like you say, props. Anyway, but anyway, they got this series called Your Comeback. And again, this is uh with Tony Evans, and basically he says there's three things that you need. And if you look at the major movies as far as comebacks, you kind of look at the big Rocky, you know, Rocky. I mean, everybody loves Rocky movies, Rocky I, Rocky II. I think there's Rocky V, so forth. But anyway, so everybody likes that comeback guy so forth. And then he was talking about basically as far as you know, you and all in the sports arena, basically an individual comeback was with Tiger Woods. And we had discussed that Tiger Woods was at the top of his game, couldn't have gotten any higher. He was considered the best of the best, so forth. And then approximately 11 years ago, stuff like that, he suffered a major fall with infidelity, like that, and just continued to crash, so forth. He ended up having four back surgeries. And we mentioned that he was basically told that, you know, you might not walk again, let alone play golf again. And this past season, he won the Masters, which is considered the golf terminate in the world, the Masters. Get your green jacket. And he also discussed the as a group as far as the Marshall Thundering herd back in 1970 when they lost their entire football team. And and he didn't know, and I didn't know what he was going to discuss uh yesterday, and he didn't know that I was going to actually to a Marshall football game on Saturday night. And when we were at Fat Patty's at the restaurant, so forth, I was standing along that the walkway and I just turned around because he had pictures, and the picture that I focused on was right directly beside me, and it was a picture of the football team and the coaches and the players and the doctors and their wives and spouses, you know, that that were all lost that day, so forth. And he says the year after so forth, they went 0-10. And if you ever watch the movie We Are Marshall, it's an excellent movie, and I'm not even gonna try to mention that the key actor because I'm just totally ruined his name. And the second year was the same thing, I think, 0-10. And third year, basically, what really made a difference and so forth was you can hear the whisper. And when my dad was telling this story, it's okay, and my dad's 85 years old, he had broken down and he was crying, and he still remembers it to this day. I was six years old when that happened, but he still remembers it so vividly, so forth, uh, that he would just had a hard time telling it. And it was basically the fact is that third year you started hearing this, we are martial. And it was at a quiet voice, and then all of a sudden it just got louder and louder and louder to what is just deafening, so forth. And what Tony Evans basically says is that first of all, you know, the comeback basically isn't for ourselves, it's for everyone around us. Everybody likes to see a comeback so forth. You know, you root for the guy. Number two, if you lose your voice, okay, if you're in a situation that's so helpless and hopelessness that you lose your voice, you need to hear somebody else's voice. That's where friends, that's where families, that's where mental health care providers, that's where pastors come involved and to be that voice for that individual to give them strength. And I can relate this because my dad was definitely sick back in November, and his blood count was 30,000 white blood sock count, and he was in septic shock from a kidney infection, so forth. And he battled for three days and it took a point where he had pick lines, you know, in his system. So like that. And there'd be times that I'd always get the bad days, I think, because I was always up in Columbus to go on the weekend, toward a point where he was just kind of giving up. And he was a pastor, but he he lost his voice. He was self-doubting, you know, you know, and then therefore, when he said that family came around and became his voice and spoke positive, and the church came around and spoke positive, you know, and blessings and prayer and so forth, it was so important because it helped him raise from his sickbed to where he's functionally 100% so forth. So when we lose our voice, we need to have somebody else's voice to encourage us. And he says basically the third thing is regret for financial poverty, regretting, boy, if I wouldn't have done that financially, or spiritual poverty, if I wouldn't have had that relationship, so like that. And he says basically, regret is the biggest cause for depression. And so like that. So anyway, and there's basically the thing is as far as there's two different types of highs, the emotional high, which doesn't last. Everybody likes that comeback, you know, great select that, but it's that inspirational high that goes deeper. And so anyway, so if you personally do not have that voice, then I strongly recommend that you find someone family, friend, pastor, health care provider, that's gonna be that voice for you to get you through those darkest, darkest days.

Speaker 3 1:00:06

Absolutely, absolutely. And and the thing is is that we don't doubt that those people care. The problem with depression is it causes a person to doubt their self-worth. And so when you're doubting your self-worth, you automatically start talking yourself out of seeking or asking for help because you think that you're not worth it. Nobody, they're they're busy, they don't have time to deal with me. The thing that I want you to hear is that you are valuable. You are valuable and even and your feelings will betray you. You cannot believe what you feel. You have to know your value and your self-worth because God gave it to you. And so as a result of that, trust that those people around you will be there for you and and ask and keep asking. And you'll find that you'll be surprised that those people will respond.

Speaker 2 1:01:06

When you're in that valley and you look up and you see this this mountain in front of you, a lot of times the people who even try to come out when they're getting treatment and they're they're heading up in that direction, they think, Can I really do this? Can I get can I get back up there? And as you said, everybody loves the comeback story. Everybody. And people wouldn't go to the movies if it was just all good. You know, they love, they wouldn't go back to the sports, they wouldn't see these people because they really love that comeback story. And I I want to encourage as people, just like you say with the Tiger Woods or whether it's celebrity or celebrities. If you're that person that is down that valley, I want to encourage you to climb this mountain because you're gonna love this mountaintop. You're gonna love this mountaintop because it is the view that is that makes the difference. It is the view of where you came from. You'll appreciate the mountain when you climb it. You can't appreciate it until you climbed it.

Speaker 1 1:02:02

All right, wow. I'd say, is there a is there contact information for someone to get a hold of you all? You know, your uh counseling and wellness center, so I think that I know you all have three locations.

Speaker 3 1:02:12

Yes, we do. Our Belprey location, if for people, people that are on the Ohio listeners, you can contact us. We are on 225 Main Street in Belprey, Ohio, and the phone number is 740-401-3088.

Speaker 2 1:02:32

On our West Virginia side, uh, we're located on 936 Market Street in Parkersburg, West Virginia, and you can be able to contact us at 304 422 7300. You can also access all of our websites at www.counselingandwellness.com, all one word. And uh you can also access our Taze Valley office as well there too.

Speaker 1 1:02:57

All righty. Well, I tell you, I just want to thank thank you, Mike, thank you, Steve, for uh again for the second time like that for giving your Monday morning to me and to our listeners all the way into Singapore and thank God for the World Wide Web. Yes. But anyway, it's it's always a pleasure when you guys come in and and I really enjoy it like that because you guys you guys always bring truth and you guys always bring healing to a lot of people who are suffering. And I appreciate what you do in the community dealing with the people who are you know having issues with as far as mental health and going through these uh depressant valleys and so forth. So I just pray that God blesses your your practice and you personally and again, thank you so much. Until next time, keep on soaring.

Speaker 1:03:42

Thank you for listening to Soaring in Health and Wellness with Dr. Steve Wells and his guests. We would like to thank our sponsor, Mountaineer Chiropractic. For more information, go online to MountaineerCairo.com. If you'd like to be a sponsor or help support Soaring in Health and Wellness Podcasts, please go to the web at Eaglesway Ministries.org and select the patron page in the top menu bar. If you or your business or church would like Dr. Steve Wells to speak at your church special event or conference, please go online to Eaglesways Ministries.org and select contact on the menu bar. Or send an email to Eaglesway Ministries at gmail.com or call 304-485-6589. Until next time, think of Isaiah chapter 40, verses 29 through 31. He gives strength to the weary and increases in the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall. Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will sword wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.