“If we want to be ready for the future, […] we have to generate our own crisis.” This podcast episode features our guest Thomas Fell, CEO of GS1, a company known for its most famous product, the barcode, as he guides as through the organization’s inspiring transformation program.
Learn how GS1 turned VUCA from a thread into an opportunity, how to build trust to master cultural change, and why GS1 now works in honey combs.
“If we want to be ready for the future, […] we have to generate our own crisis.” This podcast episode features our guest Thomas Fell, CEO of GS1, a company known for its most famous product, the barcode, as he guides as through the organization’s inspiring transformation program.
Learn how GS1 turned VUCA from a thread into an opportunity, how to build trust to master cultural change, and why GS1 now works in honey combs.
Thomas: (00:02)
If we want to be ready for the future, we have to, let me say like that, we have to generate our own crisis without having a financial crisis. And this is even harder, because the reluctance for change is even higher. If everybody asks you, why should change it? It's going quite well. We are earning our money. It's running, it's working. Why that change? Sometimes it's easier if you have really a fundamental financial crisis, then it becomes obvious for everybody.
Christine: (00:31)
Welcome to the Lost in Transformation podcast series dedicated to the complex world of Digital Transformation. We feature guests from large corporations, start-ups, consultancies and more, to shed light on the success factors around Innovation, Transformation, and adjacent topics.
We share first-hand insights and inspiration from experts for all the intrapreneurs, entrepreneurs and anyone curious about Digital Transformation.
Christine: (01:00)
Thomas Fell is the CEO of GS1, a non-profit organization that standardizes secure and efficient business processes that are applied worldwide. GS1’s most famous product is the barcode that automatized shopping processes over 40 years ago. Thomas opens up about the inspiring transformation program of GS1 and how they strive to redefine their role in an IoT world. We hope you enjoy this episode.
Christine: (01:27)
Hi, Thomas. I'm glad to have you as a guest here today on Lost In Transformation, and thanks so much for joining us. So you are the CEO at GS1 in Germany, which is an organization that sets standards for efficient and secure business processes and whose journey actually began back in the days with the barcode that we now use every day to scan products. And today we want to know how your journey with GS1 basically started and how it was also transformed over the past couple of years due to changes from inside and outside. But to start off, could you tell us a bit more about yourself and what GS1 does in general?
Thomas: (02:04)
Christine, Hello. And thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be part of that podcast Lost In Transformation". My name is Thomas Fell. And I'm, as you mentioned, the CEO of the GS1 here in Germany and a member of the gold whiteboard, and I'm on this very specific and glad for role since three years. My background is a pure business background. I've worked all my business life in the industry with a strong focus on consumer product goods and retail. So, I started 25 years ago with IBM, where worked 16 years in different roles. The last role was the General Manager here in Germany. And then I moved to a startup company, which was a very interesting period of two years. And then I was the global leader for Wincor Nixdorf of their retail business around the globe, which brought me a lot of time to Singapore, where our agent headquarters was.
Thomas: (02:57)
It was a quite interesting time to the business in Asia. All around and since three years, I'm now with GS1. And the specific thing on GS1 is basically nobody knows the company, but everybody knows the product. Very often people ask me, what are you doing? And our product is indeed, like you mentioned the barcode, and this is the barcode for identification of products, which you find on every single product you identify, you pick in a supermarket. If you look at it, it's this small barcode on it to identify the product. And that's what coming from GS1. And a lot of other things, and this journey began in 1974 with the so-called first beep in a supermarket in Ohio, when the first product was really scanned. And in these days it was a reckless chewing gum, which was scanned in 1970 for the first time. And up to today, today we scan more than 6 billion products every day, which means nearly every person on planet earth is scanning a product once a time on a day. And that's a quite impressing and interesting area to work in.
Christine: (04:11)
Super interesting to hear also, what was the very first, something for us now, it's something we take for granted that we have it when we go shopping. If we wind back to when it all started, you said around 40 years ago, how would you describe the status quo at GS1? What did the world look like before the whole transformation?
Thomas: (04:33)
It's a little bit back to our vision statement. We believe in the power of standards to transform the way we work and live. And we definitely changed the way, how was a supermarket working and how it is working today? If you go back to these days, I mean, without scanning, you have to identify every product with the article number and type it in, in a cash registry, which was pretty slow. And a lot of times inaccurate. And the idea of using a barcode to identify products was a pretty smart one. But as a lot of times, it was a little bit of hand and neck problem. If you don't have the barcode on every product, it's not materializing buying all the equipment. If you buy all the equipment and have limited number of products with a barcode, it makes no sense. So, it was a huge debate these days between retailers and industry companies can be aligned on that standard on a global basis and roll it out.
Thomas: (05:33)
And it starts slowly in the early or mid seventies. And it really boomed in the eighties and nineties. And today, I mean, today you cannot think that you can work without a barcode on a product in the retail arena. And in, by the way, in a lot of other industries in the meanwhile as well. If you look to the healthcare industry where you identify not only health care products, but patients and things like that. In the logistics area where, you identify all the shipment parcels and so on and so forth. It's a world, which will not work these way without these standards. And that's quite impressive to see and to realize, and it's not the end of the journey. I would say with the world of IoT, we are at the beginning of the next level.
Christine: (06:17)
Super interesting. So, there's definitely more changes to come in the future. And now that we're also talking about change and also the VUCA world that we live in nowadays, was there a certain point in time where the company felt like it needed to change to survive? Was there a certain catalyst for change, so to say?
Thomas: (06:37)
That's a very interesting question. As I started three years ago, the company was and is in very good shape. So a lot of times, the reason for transformation is a crisis. And most of the time, the reason for transformation is a financial crisis. So, as I started here in that company, there was no crisis and no financial crisis, everything works, it rolls, why change something? But I realize that the way we are working or we were working three years ago was a little bit an organization of the late eighties, very hierarchical, order and command. So, this was the leadership style, which wasn't bad for a very long time. And it's independent from the leadership styles, how successful you are as a company. And we were successful, but it was my intention to say, this will not bring us into the future.
Thomas: (07:31)
We need to become more agile, more open, more interested in innovation, open for new things and to do so. We need, first of all, we need a little bit, a different culture, a more open trustful culture. And so I said, if we want to be ready for the future, we have to, let me say like that, we have to generate our own crisis without having a financial crisis. And this is even harder, because the reluctance for change is even higher. If everybody asks you, why should change it? It's going quite well. We are earning our money. It's running, it's working. Why that change? Sometimes it's easier, if you have really a fundamental financial crisis, then it becomes obvious for everybody. Yes, we have to change, I understand. Out of a quite solid situation only, because the bright future vision, it's even harder, but it started that journey, because we think the world around us is changing.
Thomas: (08:26)
And you mentioned it with VUCA, which is the acronym, which is in the market for a couple of years, where you say the world is really changing. VUCA stands for volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. And if you talk about VUCA, if you talk about volatility, it's becoming obvious for all of us, that the world is really crazy. Look to the stock market and the exchanges and the ups and downs, it's really volatile. And the uncertainty is growing as well nowadays. So, as I started in business, it was obvious in IBM that we have done a 10 year technology outlook. So, nobody will ever do today a 10 year technology outlook, even 5 years is too long, because it's so uncertain in all dimensions. And yes, it's becoming more and more complex. If you look in my arena in the supply chain network, how complex they are.
Thomas: (09:15)
So, if you see the Corona crisis, what does it mean for worldwide global supply chains, how they crash and have to be rebuilt in real time and things like that. It's pretty complex. And ambiguity is around in our world as well. If you look to the global market, where some countries think we have to do protection tariffs, and put additional taxes on specific products [...], it's a quite interesting question, because a lot of times you cannot even say this. So, sum it up, we are in a world, which is really changing, and this means we have to change as well. And what comes in addition to the VUCA world, let's take this acronym for a second, is the technology is developing very fast as well. And technology is really developing exponentially.
Thomas: (10:04)
So, since last March, we all know what exponential, exponentiality means and exponential growth means. And the Corona crisis, you don't even have to explain it any longer to people. But technology is developing alongside that as well, pretty fast. And sometimes I give an example, if I'm on stage, I say, if you walk in a linear world, so these steps, and if you do big steps, then it's approximately 30 meters on a stage, if you do. So, the exponential steps, so one meter plus two meters, plus four meters plus eight meters, and do this 30 times, only 30 times, you walk around the planet earth for 26 times. And this is what exponential growth really means. And if you think there's in technology, it's massive. And it was interesting to talk to some leading companies in technology area.
Thomas: (10:59)
If you ask them, where do you think we are on this exponential curve? Are we at the beginning? Are we at the end? And most of them say we are right around or a little bit above the tipping point where the next doubling of technology is really massive. And this is what we can experience. If we talk about artificial intelligence, if you talk about blockchain, if you talk about IoT, it's really massively developing. And the combination of VUCA world and massive technology is driving a lot of change and we have to prepare ourselves to that as well.
Christine: (11:37)
Right. I really liked the analogy of taking steps in a linear world, whereas in an exponential world. So I think, that is really true to what's happening around us. And we're like in the midst of it, as you just said. And, then, so that was basically the changes around us that are happening. And then, we need to change as a company as well. So, then you obviously started that big transformation program and journey. Could you guide us through this journey from the very beginning? Like what were maybe some first approaches to the problems that were there?
Thomas: (12:13)
I'm happy to do so. So first of all, we said, VUCA is not only a threat. The VUCA world is threatening a lot of people, but we translate it in a way for us saying, VUCA can also be the solution, if we translate VUCA in a different way. So, if we say VUCA stands for the, V stands for vision. So, we said, it's important that we have a clear vision and understanding of our future. And this is answering the most important question, why we are here, why we are here as a company. By the way, it's important for every person as well to answer the question, why I'm here, why I'm doing what I'm doing, but it's even important for companies answering that questions. Why we are here having a clear vision, or nowadays we often say purpose, which is slightly different. But goes into the direction of vision.
Thomas: (13:11)
And the U in VUCA we translated for us in understanding. We have to explain why we want to do this or that. It's not enough just to announce what we do, we have to do. We have to explain why are we doing things? And nowadays, even more important because the younger generation is simply asking why, therefore we need clarity. We have to be transparent and very clear and full of clarity, what we are doing. And then we have to be Agile as an A in the VUCA world. The old models are a little bit too slow, too static. So, we have to find different ways of working together in the Agile way. So, we translated the VUCA from a threatening description of the world a little bit into - this is the room for our solution. If we translate it: this vision, understanding clarity and agility. And the element we used is the so-called Golden Circle.
Thomas: (14:09)
Some of you might notice, the Golden Circle starts with the "Why", and then that's the answer "how". And then on the board, most people start with what they do, and then they say how they do it and then [...] to tell why they do it. So, we really turned it around, which was a tough piece of work at the end of the day, starting with the why, why we are doing things, why we are here, what is our purpose and things like that. And then think about how we do this and the how at the end of the day is the competitive advantage, how you are doing things as a competitive advantage, which is not easy to copy that, that's your intellectual knowledge. And then you say what you are doing. And then it's much more clear for the people, for the customers to understand this way.
Thomas: (14:56)
And, this is a hard piece of work, because it's a lot of discussion. It's a lot of thinking, which is not bad to describe this and to phrase this. And we said from the beginning in our transformation, this is a transformation from us, for us. We don't want to be transformed from an outside consultant. We made a decision the early days as a management team, that's from us for us. And from the first day on, we wanted to involve a lot of people in that transformation. So, it should be free and open for everybody who wants to be in the core team of transformation. So, the earliest start, definitely was that I identified the group of people from whom I thought, they can really bring value into that transformation and independently from hierarchy. Yes, obviously the core leadership team, if they could not give value to a transformation, then you should ask the question why they're there. So, yes, they are part of that group. But from the first day on a lot of people out of the organization, from whatever positions, they were part of that first transformation team, which was a group of 12 people sitting together and really start thinking how we should do this in the early days of 2018.
Christine: (16:15)
So, something super new taking on from the very beginning, I could imagine that this must have been like a really big project in front of these 12 people. And now that you're telling us more about the program, can you maybe state a few concrete examples of what has changed during this program, or maybe how it was before and how it is now?
Thomas: (16:37)
So, the first sessions were everything from crazy to chaotic, to long nights and long discussions. And this was really needed. By the end of the day it became obvious for us that we, in our transformation, have 3 elements. We have, for sure, a cultural transformation element. We will see an organization transformation element, and we see a business transformation element and with a famous statement from Peter Drucker: Peter Drucker's "Culture eats strategy for breakfast." This is really true. So we said, we have to start with a cultural transformation before we can continue with organizational or business transformations and what we have done at the very beginning, we used the tool, a web-based tool called [...], which is an online chat. And we had a two hour chat with all employees, an anonymous chat. And we asked people where you think we are as an organization, what are our issues?
Thomas: (17:41)
What are our problems? And then this tool, they have some specific elements in it that you really can work out. The key topics, positive or negatives, would be too long in that session to explain how this works, but it's a really smart and clever tool to do so. And the outcome was that the biggest issue we see, all our employees, all of our teams see is really in the cultural elements. That they said these days we don't have a transparent communication culture. We don't have a lot of trust in other or an open exchange of mind, or the internal careers. A lot of people are coming from outside, and that we need a modern leadership style or more modern leadership style. That strategy is not pretty clear. And on the positive side, we've got a lot of feedback that we have super interesting topics to work with and where we are.
Thomas: (18:35)
And, that we have very interesting teams and colleagues, and that is all fine, but that we are very static, a lot of hierarchy in a relatively small company and things like that. So, it was obvious to start on cultural themes and a little bit of organizational transformation. And then we go to the big business topics and to your question, what we are starting with in the first days of these transformations. So, the core team of transformation is exchanging all these ideas. And we work with initiatives, we call them initiatives. So, every employee can start an initiative, as a team of people and work on a specific topic. So, first we selected on which initiatives, we can have an influence. We can have an effect and become a better company at the end of today.
Thomas: (19:28)
And we picked the first, I think, the first 18 of them and worked on them. And to give you some examples, a big topic for a lot of people was, can we work mobile. So this was in 2018, some people were allowed to work mobile. Some people were allowed to spend half a day or a day in home office, but there was no general idea how we can work in a mobile way. So, we worked it out. It was a team of 12 people throughout the organization who worked out, how can a mobile work look like at the end of these outcomes and it was fabulous. It was great. It was a very balanced model we have today. We have two models. We have an office model and we have a mobile model. And if you have a mobile, if you make a decision for the mobile model, and if it works for your role description, you work on mobile means for example, that you don't have a fixed desk in the office.
Thomas: (20:22)
You have a flex desk in the office. You can work from wherever it's appropriate to work from. You can work from home in, to train in, the plane, wherever, and even in your office, your mobile. This brought a lot of flexibility into our organization and into our office structure. And knowing what is Corona, as it started in March, we were ready to go, everybody was working mobile from that on, and it was easy over a weekend. We were ready to do so, but surprisingly, I mean, other companies learned their lessons as well. And this is a good example. We worked around nine months to set it up and to do it and to find our way, how to do mobile working. It was interesting to see in early April where even very traditional companies, learn very fast within one or two weeks and set up a mobile concept as well.
Thomas: (21:14)
So, which is a good example that sometimes you learn swimming faster in cold water. So, if you have, if there is really the need to do something, sometimes getting faster, and you come to solutions as well. This was an interesting learning experience for us, but we felt these days pretty comfortable, because we have done it. Another example was that we introduced the leadership dialogue 360. A lot of you notice, we don't have this. And from the principal, it's very easy. You get a feedback from your boss, from your peers and from your employees. So, you have a 360 feedback. Technology wise, or process wise, it was easy to implement. It was more a question of trust, can I be really open? Can I trust on the system that I don't get panelized afterwards and things like that.
Thomas: (22:06)
So, cultural aspects, and we worked a lot of that. And since two years, we have it now. And in addition, we have an employee engagement index, which is very important for us. So, these are things we haven't done before. Another aspect for culture perhaps, we tested ourselves with this, sorry for this expression, but it's how we call it in Germany, the fuck up nights, where a couple of us are coming together at a late night, and telling about their biggest mistakes and what they learned from it and exchange with some other people who are willing to do so as well in a smaller group and environment. And they learned from themselves. Last example, perhaps at that stage, we worked at a concept education from employees to employees. It's very interesting to see that the employees, they don't have only competencies in what they are doing over the day. They have much more competencies, and very often they are very passionate in these other competencies. And if you open them a platform or room or area where they can share this with other employees, it's very dynamic environment, where people are very passionate to educate their colleagues in specific topics. So, we open some room in time with a method, methodology to do so, and this was very well accepted as well, and gives a really totally different spirit. Even in cultural wise, these are examples, what we have done.
Christine: (23:34)
It's super fascinating to hear how these initiatives all change, basically the company towards the better, or for a better experience of the company. But except from the things that went well and what you just shared as examples now, I'm also quite curious to hear about anything that perhaps didn't work out the way you imagined, or an initiative that failed, perhaps that you could learn from.
Thomas: (24:02)
Yes, definitely, not everything went well. We learned our lessons in some things, for example, if you start an initiative with 30 people and you have too much time, then it's not a guarantee for the best outcomes. So, we learned a lot, what is the best setup for an initiative. It's easier to work with 5 passionate people then with everyone who wants to be part of that. And it's a nightmare to do all this coordination effort. We learned that it's better to work with time boxing initiatives. So, in the meanwhile, we say it's easier to have 60 or 90 days for an initiative. You may use this, you select this, but then it's over. Then the initiative will be closed after 90 days and you have to communicate the results. So, perhaps to start another initiative for the second phase is needed.
Thomas: (24:49)
But using time boxing was very good, because we had some long running initiatives where all of a sudden we realized are we really working on that. Is it really important for us? And, things like that. And we underestimated, how long it takes for a cultural change. This really takes years, sorry to say. So it's not a quick effort. Building trust is a long way, is a marathon. It's not a sprint and you have to give the organization the time for this cultural change. And the second point very important point is that, it's always starting from the top. You cannot pray water and drink wine. Obviously this is not working. So, you have to become the front runner for all of these changes on your own as well.
Thomas: (25:38)
And then you can drive this enthusiasm in the organization that people are following. So, we skipped a lot of traditional things. So, for example, I don't have an office at all. So, I'm sitting on flex desk as well. We had a lot of these traditional status symbols. This is my office. And, if I'm the executive, I have two window lines. And if I'm a manager, one window line, so now we have no office at all. This is a drastic change. And we had this typical situation three years back. It's a simple example, but it shows where I want to go to, because it's so simple. We had this famous license plate on a parking area and the higher you are in the hierarchy, the closer the license plate is to the entrance doors.
Thomas: (26:25)
So, it looks a little bit old fashioned, but it was the case. So I said, all these license plate state, they have to disappear. And they'll give you a little flavor, how people are thinking, I got a question yesterday, we can take them off, but then we have holes in the wall. I said, yeah, you're right. We have holes in the wall and we need a different plate than on that place, but what should we put on it? What about customer on it? So, the closest parking area to the entrance door is now customer. This is a little perhaps stupid signal, but it is a signal and don't underestimate the power of signal. If you have to go forward, you have to be the front runner as a CEO, even with the signals , that's pretty important.
Christine: (27:09)
Well, I like that how those small changes are those changes that we perceive a small actually make a big impact. And, probably like a lot of people in different companies, they're also not aware of things that have been the way they are always, that you can change them at any time. And that makes a big difference in the company. So, it's really interesting to hear the initiatives that you guys went through. And, now with also all the learnings that you just mentioned, is there like a bigger purpose or vision for the journey of GS1, of where you are headed with the whole program? Anything that keeps you going?
Thomas: (27:46)
What keeps us going? Transformation I would say never stops. That's a journey where you never reach the target line. It's a continuous process. And one thing which we have done, it's a lot of extra work if you are in the core team of these transformation. So, I told you at the beginning of that podcast from the 12 people who started that. It's very difficult to start such a challenge, to push the car at the beginning, it's harder. Then it laid on it, it rolls and it flows and it's becoming better. But the starting point is very difficult. You have to be very pushy before you can generate a pull. So, this is extra work of these 12 people they do. In addition to the normal daily work, whatever is part of their daily work.
Thomas: (28:33)
So, we made the decision that we want to have every year, a new team taking over this responsibility for 12 months. So, the core team of transformation is in the meanwhile in an election process, which we do at the end of every year. And we elect 12 people who are the core team for the next year. And this works in a way that you send a motivation letter, why you want to be part of that team, what are your ideas for the next level of transformation might be for the following year. And all the employees are voting. And the top 12 are the next for the next year. So, we have every year, a new core team of transformation who is really in the inner circle, the driving force, and guiding us through this information, which is very important.
Thomas: (29:21)
And in the meanwhile, obviously we work a lot on organizational transformation and on business transformation. We now have a situation where we know how initiatives are working, where we can collaborate, across all our departments. We don't even have departments any longer, by the way. We have honey combs. So, we have an organizational structure, which is totally unusual compared to the traditional hierarchy org charts that you have, the boxes and the lines. We have honey combs only, it comes in a way that at least you have six sites to the next honey comb and not only one line. So, across all these honey combs, we know how to work together through our cultural transformation. And now we can really work together for big business transformational things that we ask ourselves, what is our role as GS1 In the IoT world, where the billion devices are talking to each other, in the near future.
Thomas: (30:17)
And what is our role with our identification, schemes and standards in an IoT, which is a big essential question for our company and where we are using the same principles, like this little cultural transformation stuff through these initiatives, working together and find answer to even big business questions. And that's really great to see that this can work and that this is working and it comes all alongside. The biggest change I would say is that we give trust to the people, but we give responsibility to the people as well. So, trust and responsibility are a pair, it's not coming alone. You cannot say yes, trust me, but please keep the responsibility on your side. This is not working, trust and responsibility is coming together. And this is a huge change for a lot of people to realize, oops, yes, trust is fine, but responsibility might be a burden, and this is the cultural change it should be achieved. And then start doing things and are open for failures. So, we do things, then we learn around it. We develop it, we continue. And yes, I would say, courage comes really from doing.
Christine: (31:30)
I find it super inspiring how much change you've already achieved within the company. And, I'm also curious to know how you actually measure if you're like, whether you've been successful with the initiative. Now, that it's been in place for quite a while already, is there any like metric that you have in place or how do you do that?
Thomas: (31:52)
Yes, we have a very simple metric and this is for everybody in our company, the same metric. So, we don't have any longer any individual metrics. If I need to put money on the table that somebody is doing something, then he's exactly doing that same, but this is not how we want to work. So, we are successful together or we are not successful together. So, we have all the same targets and our measurements are our targets. And this is basically the net promoter score, which we introduced. So, the net promoter score, we measure on 18 touch points around the year, and then we have an all over net promoter score. This is one target, and then the free cashflow of our company. So, I would be able to run a company with these two measurements, by the way, net cash flow and net promoter score or free cash flow and net promoter score.
Thomas: (32:46)
We have four, in addition, we have then the employee engagement index, which is standardized tool as well, that we measure every day, the employee engagement index, which is for the leaders, a very important aspect and obviously the revenue as a company as well. So, basically we measure internally and externally against these 4 KPIs, net promoter score, free cashflow, employee engagement index and revenue. And that's what it is for all of us and if we are not moving the needle on these 4 things, then we have done something wrong. And if we are moving the needle, we are on the right way.
Christine: (33:17)
I think it's a very nice and holistic approach to kind of measure everything and also make sure that your change is going in the right direction. And, as a last question, with where you are now as GS1, is there anything that's next that you can share with us today already?
Thomas: (33:35)
There are a lot of things which are next. I mentioned it, what does this tremendous technology development means for us? It's not a given that we are here forever. It's not a given that the barcode is on every product on planet earth forever. And what is our relevance in the next decade? And this is the important question we have to answer. And I gave it a little bit of flavor of this IoT world. And I can describe on that example where the threat comes from and the opportunity, if you think in an IoT world where 30 billion devices are connected to each other, then you have to identify them. You have to know who is who and how they are related to each other and how they are connected. And today, it's a bigger issue of these IoT ecosystems that they are very proprietary.
Thomas: (34:26)
So, you have an ecosystem A and ecosystem B, and A cannot talk to B, therefore we need an Alexa skill to translate. That's the only reason for that, by the way, and things like that. So, this will change the identification, the individualization, the personalization of things will grow dramatically. And we have to identify what our role is, our identification schemes in this new world, because very simple, the person, organization, or institution who is able to identify these 30 billion IoT devices, they can easily identify a couple of million of consumer product or healthcare products as well. So, this is a thread and opportunity for us. And this is where we spent a lot of work and innovation and ideas to work out our way here.
Christine: (35:17)
Thomas thank you so much for taking us along the whole transformation program of GS1. And it's super fascinating to hear how the changes you implemented basically help the whole organization change for the better. And I also hope our listeners found some inspiration for their own transformation journeys as well. It's been great chatting with you and thanks again.
Thomas: (35:38)
Thank you, Christine. It was a great pleasure and all the best for you and your teams.
Christine (35:44)
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