Want to learn more about the role of storytelling and data-literacy in driving innovation? "Data is a critical tool to keep you sane, to show the organization your progress, and to create momentum. I think it's an incredible way to tell your story." This episode features Michelle Mahoney, Executive Director of Innovation at KWM in Australia, as she shares all about the changing innovation landscape in the legal space, and how to use enablers to nudge behavioral change.
Want to learn more about the role of storytelling and data-literacy in driving innovation? "Data is a critical tool to keep you sane, to show the organization your progress, and to create momentum. I think it's an incredible way to tell your story." This episode features Michelle Mahoney, Executive Director of Innovation at KWM in Australia, as she shares all about the changing innovation landscape in the legal space, and how to use enablers to nudge behavioral change.
Michelle: (00:02)
To really transform an organization, you know, it's not overnight. So data is a critical tool to keep you sane and to show the organization your progress and create momentum. And so I'm all in on data. I think it's an incredible way to tell your story, to use hard evidence, and to let the storytelling really bring out your achievements.
Christine: (00:30)
Welcome to the Lost in Transformation podcast series dedicated to the complex world of digital transformation. We feature guests from large corporations, startups come consultancies, and more to shed light on the success factors around innovation transformation and adjacent topics. We share firsthand insights and inspiration from experts for all the entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, and anyone curious about digital transformation.
Christine: (01:00)
Hi, I’m Christine, the Marketing Manager at MING Labs, and today, I’m talking to Michelle Mahoney. She’s the Executive Director of Innovation at the leading law firm King & Wood Mallesons in Australia. With a background in strategy and innovation, she shares more about the company’s transformation journey towards greater data-literacy and behavioral change. Plus, learn more about the innovation landscape in the legal space. We hope you enjoy this episode!
Christine: (01:30)
Hi Michelle, I'm very excited to have you on our podcast today, on Lost in Transformation. And, thank you so much for taking the time as well. And, you are the executive director of innovation at King & Wood Mallesons in Australia where you've also driven some really exciting transformation. And I'm curious to hear more about your own experience with transformation and change happening in the legal space, and in terms of digital literacy and legal tech as well. So very exciting. To start off, I'd be happy to learn more about yourself first. Could you perhaps share more about your background and your experience that basically brought you to where you are today?
Michelle: (02:10)
Of course. And hello! It's great to see you again, Christine. So for me, I've been working in the innovation role, probably most of my life. It just wasn't called that. So I have been working in the legal industry for a long time. A lot of the early days was around early tech and data and spent a lot of time looking at how might we automate and improve the way we work for really data-intensive activities that without me really realizing it, put me sort of frontline understanding how lawyers work, how technology enables them. And probably met with my personality, which is there has to be a better way to do anything and everything. I love to get things, you know, efficient and I love doing things better. So that certainly linked up. And so I worked on that for quite some time and then sort of moved into strategy.
Michelle: (02:57)
And I did quite a bit of work on our strategy on our international side. And then back in 2015, our then, Chief Executive Partner asked me if I would return back into the Australian practice and focus on innovation. So we were the first law firms in Australia to appoint someone full-time into the innovation role. And I took that on and then started building out a team. And after about three years, so innovation for us was really ad hoc, we certainly had processes and systems and all that kind of stuff, but there wasn't actually a programmatic drive around a particular event. It was really looking at transforming or really innovating areas proactively and reactively. And in about 2018, you know, we really wanted to get things at scale. And so we thought, huh, we probably need to do something differently here. And that's sort of, I think what's led me to catch up with you today.
Christine: (03:54)
That's super interesting to hear Michelle also, you were saying you are a very proactive person, and then you basically end up in an innovation position as one of the first law firms there that is doing something like that. So I'm happy to dive more into this path of digital transformation today. I think that's super interesting, also in a space that is very different from other industries that are covered in different episodes as well. Could you explain a bit how things used to work for the company before the transformation journey started?
Michelle: (04:29)
Yeah, absolutely. So, as I said, in 2015, we had an interest in innovation. I think people across the organization were also intrigued and curious. We had pockets of people using technology to work smart, not harder. There wasn't a systemic program around that. It was much more sort of ad hoc. And those that showed an interest really kind of identified and sought out ways to get solutions or to work differently. There was some technology-focused around one area that was quite labor-intensive, which is a document review piece we do with where every document needs to be reviewed and assessed. So there was a little bit of text sort of around that as people certainly had used that. And we have sort of seen that happening, but what we didn't really have if you were a lawyer and you wanted to work differently, it may not have been entirely clear to you or easy now that I look back, for you to find out where could I go to learn more? I think there was an acceptance that technology would be helpful but probably wasn't a really big drive on technologies as a way that we can really enable our people. So certainly we had plenty of technology, but I don't think the focus was really around the future and enablement and digital digitization.
Christine: (05:40)
Okay. So that was kind of like a situation before that. I think it's good to understand what was the status quo there because now you are also in a position to really drive innovation and really be at the forefront of that. What would you say served more or less as the main catalyst for change for KWM to really act and take on such a big transformation journey? Was there any specific moment or anything that really drove them?
Michelle: (06:08)
I think there was a collection of moments actually. So increasingly you would see in the industry press in the Australian financial review, in their Financial Times, in The Economist, and certainly Forbes, you see articles around things like legal tech, startups, or lawyers need to improve efficiency. And, you know, there were some themes like that coming through mainstream media and definitely our industry media. At the same time, we saw an increase in a new competition, and they were doing a couple of things that were really interesting. They were developing new ways to solve old problems and we were working on old problems. So absolutely, you know, entering our market and they were using both techs as well as new business models. And so that was really [...] cuz both elements are sort of coming into play. We have also seen at the same time, this real rise of legal tech.
Michelle: (07:00)
So we'd seen FinTech and insurance tech and lots of [...] tech, but actually, the legal tech had been slow. We'd had e-discovery and document review. But what we now saw is this big increase around what we call legal tech. And there were lots of point solutions starting to enter the market. We were flooded. There were plenty of actually great solutions that are coming onto the market. The final thing that was also happening was we were starting to see the increase of these, what we call alternative legal services, service providers. And these are organizations that are alternatives to our law firm, but they tend to use different models. And so things like The Big 4, the big accounting firms are a good example where they use a different resourcing model. Sometimes they might labor arbitrage, so work out of a lower cost economy and they also combine with technology.
Michelle: (07:51)
So there's quite a number of things happening. We had some tech happening, we had some labor arbitrage happening. We had some combining in a different way. And then we also had people's business models changing. All of that coming into our market and requiring us to think, is there something different happening? So now we look back and we absolutely know it's called disruption, but at the time when you're seeing all these big sorts of trying to work out, what are these things telling us? And we did start, you know, we were thinking there's something different happening here. And I think it's easy to dismiss that sometimes it's like, oh, it's just this. But when you see a couple of things and when I just summarized it for you, it's like there was a lot going on, but at the time you're just sort of seeing individual data points.
Christine: (08:31)
That's super interesting to see, okay, there's actually so much happening in the market. There's slowly more disruption coming and basically, the whole industry is facing that pressure. Okay, we need to actually change something to really be on the forefront and really be successful in the future as well. So it's kind of interesting to see how that slowly came about. And then you are also at the forefront of that transformation journey. If we basically go back to the beginning, would you be able to kind of summarize what was the purpose of the transformation journey in general?
Michelle: (09:05)
Looking back, it's really interesting. So when you sort of go back and when you're living day to day and probably many of your listeners who are in the middle of a transformation, you're just thinking of it day in, day out. So looking back in 2019, we really decided at the end of 2018 that we really wanted to focus and prepare for the future. That's really where was sort of the starting point. I just summarized all this disruption happening. We knew that what we'd done before was not gonna service well or well enough for the future. We needed to shift something. So, in 2019 we worked quite closely with Innosight. I think, in fact, you might have had one of their members on one of your podcasts actually. So, we worked with Innosight who are founders of the dual transformation methodology.
Michelle: (09:50)
If you don't know it, I encourage you to have a look at it. It's a great piece of work. And the dual transformation methodology really helped us create a strategy to grow our digital literacy, to really increase our knowledge for the future and prepare our people for the future, and to bring a whole firm change in the way we deliver value to our clients. And at the same time, because of us preparing our people for the future and giving them education around digital literacy, we're able to improve the people experience. So that was sort of the big picture, but as an incumbent, what we needed to do, given that there was so much, you know, those new competitors coming into our industry is we needed to really leverage the constantly changing and improving productivity drivers like tech. We really needed to leverage that at scale within our existing business model.
Michelle: (10:40)
And then we also needed to increase our investment and core innovation so that we could actually do this as well as we needed to change up our business model to respond to the changing competitive environment. So as a few things going on, I used the phrase dual transformation. So dual meaning two, and there were two things in play here deliberately. Now the strategy was twofold. One in our core business. What we wanna do is what we're doing now well, but we want to do it faster, better, or cheaper. At the same time, what we want to do through transformation A was do what we are currently doing in a fundamentally different way. So two pieces of play here at the same time and we also knew that our clients really value excellence in service delivery and they also love efficiency and innovation in our work. So we needed to continually improve the way we delivered services, but we also understood clients want that specialist technical knowledge, which they come to us for, but want it coupled with smart, efficient delivery. And so that's where we were stepping back going. We want our great people to be really empowered by and enabled or mentored by great technology. So that was sort of our, when we stepped back, that was our overall vision and purpose.
Christine: (11:56)
I like the approach of the dual transformation that you are not just focusing on the business that is today but also looking at the future. And I also like the fact that you are saying, okay, like at the very beginning there was technology already there, but it's also about how you enable people and not really just focusing on the tech part, but also, you know, looking at the whole transformation holistically. So I really like that approach and also hearing how you work together with Innosight. Yeah, we did have an episode with Scott, which was super interesting to hear more about that as well. Now zooming into you again, to your role as basically the Executive Director of Innovation. Could you perhaps guide us through your role of how you go about creating greater efficiency for the company's clients throughout the journey? And how you actually achieve greater data literacy, just to help us get a better understanding of the approach you're usually taking in this transformation journey.
Michelle: (12:58)
So it takes a village! I think that's probably the first thing. It's certainly more than one person and I have an amazing team and I think in such great work on our design. So it's a combination, but I think one of the things we really took time to do is really understand the blockers and the systemic blockers. I think if you wanna drive change and adoption and really get an uptake, you really need to step back and take the time to deeply understand what's causing the block. I think we make a whole lot of assumptions. We intuit a whole lot of information, but you actually don't know the answers to that. So the first thing we did was did a whole lot of work around deeply understanding the blockers. And then from understanding the blockers there, we then designed a program that actually addressed those blockers.
Michelle: (13:45)
So we rolled those up into nine themes thematically. We then designed initiatives and every one of the initiatives of which we have over 25 that we've delivered today, the three key behaviors we're trying to drive, and those three key behaviors, not surprisingly all unlock our blockers. So for us, it's a series of things that roll into each other. So you take your blockers, you then design solutions that directly, you know, negate those using behavior to cause that change to happen. So that sort of our overall model, it was done certainly through a significant amount of design and a number of interventions. We had four key interventions and then a series of initiatives under those.
Christine: (14:26)
Yeah. So actually focusing really on the basic work, the groundwork, not really rushing to a solution, but really understanding those systemic blocks that you have there. Do you have perhaps like a couple of examples of what that could be?
Michelle: (14:41)
Absolutely. So a few systemic blockers would be, and this hopefully resonates in other industries, so lawyers with our firm are really busy. They're time-poor, they've got high expertise and you know, they're working long days. So one of the blockers is when do they have time in their day to do change, take on a new behavior, create a skill, learn something new? And so one of the blockers there is, you know, time. And then the second piece is around access. How do I find this? I'm really busy? How do I find it? So one of the blockers is around access, awareness, and time. And so the flip on that on how might you design around that? So one of the things we did is that we pulled our graduates out and did what we call digital boot camps. And these boot camps really supercharged the knowledge of the graduates and the graduates are in every single one of our teams.
Michelle: (15:37)
It allows you, Christine, if you are in a team, you don't have to work out where you go. If someone in your team has that knowledge, you're able to go to it when you need it, you can access that information. They can give you training, they can talk to you about it. They can show you how. And we've really connected the blocker of this: it's too hard, I'm time short, I just need to find the answer, and where would I go to? Let's put it inside your team, make it so easy that you go to that person anyway, for questions. Why not go for this question? And so that's a good example of kind of the blocker to a systemic enabler where you can embed and it just becomes second nature. And the great thing, if you can get that right, it's harder to do it another way. Like it's hard for you to stop and go, where do I go than just reach out to the person who works with you day in, day out. And so that's a good example of the right type of enabler. Cause it's so easy. People don't try to work around it.
Christine: (16:31)
That's a good example of how you actually enable people. And I think the team aspect here is super interesting as well, actually, you might be already working with the people in your team that might have a solution to the problem that you're facing. Why not just reach out to them. And you are also already talking about data literacy and using a data-driven approach here. You have perhaps an example in that regard as well. I think that is super interesting to hear as well because I think that is such a big topic, but also probably, maybe not so easy to understand. So perhaps do you have a tangible example of how you work with this approach?
Michelle: (17:09)
I think one of the challenges for transformation is if you need to do it right, it's slow, it's thoughtful, it's deep, it's wide. And it can feel like from those that are not connected to it like it's not making progress and it can feel those who are doing it like you're not making progress, right? So to really transform an organization is, you know, it's not overnight. So data is a critical tool to keep you sane and to show the organization your progress and create momentum. And so I'm all in on data. I think it's an incredible way to tell your story, to use hard evidence, and to let the storytelling really bring out your achievements. So for every single initiative, we do before we start the initiative, we think about it. And before we even do the experiment to test the initiative, we think about what data do we need to collect.
Michelle: (18:07)
So I think people often jump to, you know, we've got a program we're going to do this activity. If you're not before you start an activity designing your data collection methodology, what does success look like? How do we know we've got it right? How do we know we've got adoption? What do we know? Unless you're designing the data piece, it's really hard to validate. You've made an impact, you know, 'cause there are so many variables in business, is it the month? Is it a decline engagement piece? Is it a cycle? So you really have to stop and kind of go as part of your design. What is the data element? What are we gonna gather here? What would tell us we are getting it right or wrong? And then secondly, design the initiative. So for every initiative, we do the data design piece as well as the initiative.
Michelle: (18:48)
And then we baseline. So we create a baseline before we start. And then we actually gather and share that data. So we have public data dashboards in the organization that can go to our internet. You can see all of our progress. And what that does, breaks down each of our initiatives. You can jump on and see real-time progress and they're up to date. And so you can look at any of the initiatives we've designed and you can see cumulative data. You can see people like you. So we never give data on individuals. We augment it. But you can say, you know, as a lawyer in Melbourne, tell me how other people in my peer are going on this initiative. Am I about where they are? Am I further than them? How do I, how am I going? How is my team going?
Michelle: (19:29)
How's my center going, how's my practice going? So you can see that data on any of our initiatives, each of those initiatives, and the data we use. We report out monthly to our new growth council. And we actively look at what does the data tell us? So we look for insights around, you know, our multipliers down this month. It's not looking at the same level. We're gonna run initiatives to remind people next month, our use and lose hours are really going really on fire at the moment. Why is that? Why are we seeing an increase there? So we actually actively look at the data. You need to build a bit of data to be able to do that. But we actively look at it month on month and we interrogate the data, say, what is it telling us? What are we seeing? Cause we have quite a number of data, and it's really important to be granular about it.
Michelle: (20:14)
Be able to jump into each one and see how are they tracking? Where are they at? There are some key indicators that tell you what success looks like, but I actually would argue, you can roll up to success. But I think you need to be able to get down into that detail of each initiative to really understand whether it's hitting, where you want it to be, and whether you need to tweak it. So it's not just knowing that people are engaging with it, but which people. So we don't really care that it's Christine, we care is it, you know, this level of the person. So are we connecting with people in the Brisbane office who work in this team? We're not trying to find out what Christine's doing, but you know, are we connecting? Why aren't we connecting with those people? What do we need to do there?
Michelle: (20:56)
So we're trying to really connect in a way that we can really analyze whether we're getting that adoption and buy-in. So we use that for everything we do. So every initiative gets assessed on that and make sure that we are getting week in, wake out, progress along the journey. And we share that very publicly and for our stakeholders. So we are a partnership, our partners have their own dashboards and they can see how their people are contributing to this initiative. They can see where the team sits in relation to other teams across the entire firm and within their practice. So we give our stakeholders their own dashboards, as well as they run the organization can see all of the team data.
Christine: (21:35)
That's amazing. So you're having them involved and basically all of the important steps, basically letting them know how you actually get from the data to the insights. And I think, the fact that you're focusing on data stories and how you use the data to drive change and to tell stories, to drive innovation, I think that's really fascinating. Now looking back on this transformation journey that's been going on since you mentioned 2018 and your experience working with that change and driving innovation in the legal space, there's probably a ton of things you learned along the way, too. What would you say all in all is, would be your biggest learning or takeaway from the journey? Is there anything you would like to specifically highlight?
Michelle: (22:21)
I think it's really easy to focus on the new shiny things. And I think those of us in innovation do that. It naturally cuz we do love it, but I actually think the probable thing I would highlight is just the devil is in the detail and really to get a change of behavior for me. I think we hear it, you know, spoken that people don't hear a message unless you say it eight times and there's always sort of one, I think we found that, and I'm not saying we have all the answers, but what I've found has really had cut through is each of our initiatives builds or reinforces on another. And so what that means is separate from the initiative. We just keep telling you the same messages often and we keep bringing it top of mind and we're predictable and we're fun and we're engaging.
Michelle: (23:15)
And we deliberately use that, those kinds of techniques. And we just regularly remind you and we do that through our initiatives, we've now got our awards, we've now got our boot camps, we've now got our multiplier. We've now got our, you know, and every kind of initiative we have, there's a commonality of theme that just keeps bringing it forward. And I think the reason why I share that maybe as one of my key learnings is I think before what we did well was we did an initiative well, but it's really hard to sustain interest and get changed through an isolated activity. I think people underestimated, I think you really need to have a portfolio of activities and we would call them beans. And, there are a series of activities around initiatives that really nudge their artifacts, their behavior enablers, you know, they're really nudging people. And I think by having them over and over and just keep bringing it up, people start almost saying, oh, I meant to be doing this. I expect to see that from them. This feels more of, you know, I think that predictability, and I think we underestimated that and I think each one of our initiatives on their own is great. I think the superpower is when you bring them together. I think that is what's really caused the big shift for us.
Christine: (24:26)
Wow. That's great to hear about like this superpower, that actually how you came to the whole success as the whole transformation journey and also really insightful that you're saying, okay, it's very important to have a portfolio of activities to have those like beans and nudges you were talking about. I think that's a good takeaway as well. And probably you also had a lot of things that you didn't know up front that you only learned along the way. And it's great to hear all in all about the successful initiatives. Also the outcomes you mentioned as part of using a data-driven approach. And on the other hand, working in a shifting landscape and also implementing initiatives that are relatively new to the company or to the industry, I can also imagine that that must be difficult too or must have been difficult for you. So it's probably not everything went smoothly along the journey. Do you have maybe a mistake in mind that you made, anything that didn't work out the way you expected it to?
Michelle: (25:24)
I think if you work with humans and you say you don't have a learning or a mistake, then I'd love to meet you because I think working with humans, you know, you constantly have, you know, people you working with and engaging with you in ways where you're like, didn't expect that to happen. So I think absolutely is the answer to that question. So one of the things we did was we designed our program just circling back for a moment was designed really in 2019, we kind of had some implementation plans, but we really designed and detailed those ready, you know, for 2020. And so we, a lot of, at the end of, to really design up these, for example, digital was the first intervention we really wanted to, and really want to enable our junior people to be able to reverse mentor and help our organization with its digital journey.
Michelle: (26:14)
And so we designed them all in person. We had them set up as, you know, activities, and there was a lot of contingency around people gathering together and all the design was around getting to know each other, you know, as very, very people-centric and in the same space spectacularly COVID 19 occurs at exactly the same time. So we get one digital boot camp up, which then was a physical boot camp. We get our first of five up and we've done all our planning for it, everything designed, ready to go. And in spectacular timing, we got one away and on Friday we got the end of that week, we then went into a lockdown where, you know, after we went into isolation and went to work from home for the first time, the history of the, you know, so that was spectacular timing. And that really required us to pivot and to go to digital delivery.
Michelle: (27:06)
And that was never foreseen. So there were some things that clearly were gonna be digital delivery, but for the whole program. Cause we just weren't sure what the future held and we needed to deliver. And so we had to kind of go digital. One thing we'd never really thought about was we were creating a lot of content and we were gonna create content. We'd never really thought about creating a hub to really have a place to go. And so amazingly, we just had never really pulled it together. And so once we were sort of pivoting we're like, where we're gonna put all this stuff, how are we gonna deliver it? So our hub was created. So that was certainly one misstep that we had where we were like, probably need a hub. And what that really did was it allowed the entire firm we delivered.
Michelle: (27:47)
We created that in five weeks. So it was, you know, it was pretty full-on to get that up and running cause everyone was at home and it was pretty uncertain and we wanted to give them something really focusing on the future. And so that's part of the transformation program was really critical to get it up and out. And so we created that. We wanted to give everybody somewhere to go, to increase their digital awareness. We wanted to give everyone a place to go to test and learn and dare to try. Cause there's a sandpit. You can go and play and test stuff and learn stuff. So you really can have an experience. And then the third thing we wanted to do was really create a mindset around an open-mindedness around new ways of working. And we thought, while you were at home, we didn't know how this was gonna play out.
Michelle: (28:29)
We thought you might have some time to do that. We didn't know. And so we wanted to put it into your home in a way where you can have this asset, you go to this hub and you can actually have an experience. So that's what we did now. A couple of things were interesting around that too. What did you, what mistakes and what did you learn? Australia has used what we call a COVID zero on an eradication strategy until late this year, which means they're trying to get no cases. So we used isolation and lockdowns really heavily, really, really tricky for those of us in innovation. Because every time you do a launch, like a hub, we couldn't observe or hear in the tea room or see you in the lift to see how you felt. And so we had loads of data around access and views, but we had no infographic observations whatsoever. So really tricky for us to assess to nail it, how's it going? So it was really hard to kind of ensure that anyway, we've actually, that helps now quite large. We're actually rebuilding, cause there's so much on it. And it's just really created a unified, you know, user journey. So I think for us that was, we didn't have it. We had to pivot, we then created it. And then I think we've had some learning since then around what we need to do with it.
Christine: (29:44)
That's been probably an experience. You won't forget how COVID basically came in and scratched out a lot of things that you had planned or, that was planned in general. But it's very interesting to see how you made it work, how you pivoted, and how actually adjusted to the circumstances, and also to hear how isolation due to COVID made all of the innovative work that much harder. But, I think that's a great example to see that now you are successful, the company is successful and you made innovation work. I think you can basically go through times like COVID, this is a good indicator that pivoting is possible and innovation can still happen. So, that's very exciting to hear and also good to hear that, you know, mistakes and learnings, you know, they're part of the journey and it's not everything that goes smoothly but this is basically part of the process. Now looking ahead, looking at the future and looking at your work, and driving innovation in the legal space, do you have a specific future outlook here? Is there anything that you're especially looking forward to or anything that you see coming in the space?
Michelle: (30:57)
I think there's a number of things happening. So we, I think I mentioned earlier this, you know, a huge rise in legal tech and lots of point solutions. And so legal work is kind of interesting in that in one activity, it goes from being wildly complicated to administrative, to first principles and critical thinking back to administrative back to wildly complicated all in one, you know, all in one activity. And so it's very co-mingled. And so we get a lot of point solutions because they're doing one thing well, and I think what we are seeing is a movement possibly to more of a cohesive and more probably end to end, not entire end to end, but we are certainly seeing this more number of things that go together to make an entire process more effective. And I think parts of the processes have been certainly improved and technology is doing extraordinary.
Michelle: (31:50)
We've seen some amazing results using it, so it's been great, but I think you'll see a bit of consolidation and a bit of perhaps merging together of things to really drive a bit more cohesive improvement in various elements. So for example, we can connect two separate tools and bring them together to create a different outcome. So you're seeing that kind of cohesiveness to kind of bring things together. It is certainly prevalent. We started our AI journey back in 2015. So we've been using artificial intelligence for quite some time and LP or machine learning is pretty active within the legal community, do work with, you know, dense documents, lots of client materials, lots of documents. So the ability to review interrogate, get into documents, pull out key information, being able to identify, you know, what's inside the documents is pretty important for lawyers and so AI can really help that part so it can identify previous patterns.
Michelle: (32:46)
It can look for things you've seen before that is certainly, you know, we're seeing some good work there, but I think you will see that come step change. There's a lot more that can happen there as the body of data increases as we get better at identifying that sort of work and our knowledge around how much information we bring in. I think will certainly improve. There are not many of us that are using AI across all of our knowledge corpuses they're just so big law firms are really document warehouses. They're huge, you know, and so I think we've tech various elements or document sets I suspect as we get and as the tools improve, you'll actually widen that out. And the ability to access previous knowledge will be far less painful than it's been today. And lawyers really are knowledge workers. So being able to find what is at market previous work, where have we done previously for this client in a really easy way, will increasingly be easier as we go there, but to date, I think there have been lots of different point solutions and it adds quite a bit of friction to business professionals who are trying to get on with doing their work. They've gotta remember all these different systems. I think that cohesion piece will certainly make a big difference.
Christine: (33:56)
Right. I think that's an exciting outlook for the future also to understand how you already work with tech, how you already work with data, but just, you know, bringing everything together and just bringing more innovation into the space. I think that's really cool to hear. Michelle, thank you so much for sharing all about your journey and your expertise and in digital literacy and behavioral change as well. And how you deal with a data-driven approach here. Really exciting to hear how to implement real change and to use tech and data to also better understand the initiatives. It's been a pleasure having you on and thank you so much again.
Michelle: (34:33)
Thank you so much, Christine, for having me.
Christine: (34:37)
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