Getting Your Sh*t Together

Interview: 'On the Record' with Michelle Mar - A conversation on sexual assault, addiction, and recovery

July 02, 2020 Cynthia Season 2 Episode 19
Getting Your Sh*t Together
Interview: 'On the Record' with Michelle Mar - A conversation on sexual assault, addiction, and recovery
Show Notes Transcript

Today's episode I was joined by Michelle Mar to discuss 'On the Record.' A documentary on HBOmax that goes into the allegations surrounding Russell Simmons. Just a quick disclaimer that we will be talking about rape and sexual assault. If those topics are triggering for you, please proceed cautiously. 

Sexual abuse and survivors came to a lot quite a bit during the #MeToo movement. However, when it comes to the black entertainment industry, there was a lot of silence. So, when I heard there was going to be something created around the black music industry and the women who were involved in it -- I knew it was something I had to watch.

While I'm not in the music business, I have had men try to approach and feel like they can coerce me into things that I didn't want to do in order to "gain" something. For me, it was usually career-related. 

In this documentary, we will discuss:

  • Our feelings about the documentary, what resonated with us and why
  • Sexual assault in the black community. Why do we have to feel like we should keep silent
  • Black women and "protecting" black men 
  • How assault can amplify or cause addictive behavior
  • The path to freedom from addiction and trauma 

I highly recommend watching the doc. I think you get a free week trial, which I know I enjoyed FULLY.

If you or someone you know is battling sexual assault or trauma, I urge you to seek help here.

Stay safe out there, friends! Here is the link to some online AA meetings. 

And as always, thank you for listening to my lovely show. If possible, I would love for you to review me on iTunes, Google, Stitcher -- anywhere, really. 

If you have comments or suggestions feel free to hit me up via the ways below! And sign up for my mailing list. I do like to do giveaways from time to time. 

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Unknown Speaker :

Hello, everyone, I just wanted to have a brief disclaimer and that we do talk about sexual assault rape in this podcast. And I just wanted to send that out in case that is triggering for anyone that may listen if it is something that's triggering for you. Please proceed cautiously or seek out other content on my show. Just one thing to clarify, we do discuss the allegations against Russell Simmons. And as of this podcast recording, they are still considered allegation. So please keep that in mind as you listen to the content. Hello, my name is Cynthia. Welcome to the latest episode of getting together a podcast where we discuss what it's like to get it all the way together or at least attempt to one day at a time. Hi everyone, this is Cynthia, welcome to the latest. Episode I am joined today by the lovely Michelle Mar. She is a writer who specializes in addiction codependence and trauma. I'm excited to have her on the show. I'm excited to be here. Today we're going to talk about a documentary that some of you may be aware of or have heard of relatively new. It's on HBO Max, and it's called on the record. And this documentary just gave me so much to think about so much to think about. It is brought by two filmmakers, Amy Ziering and Kirby dick and they talk about Russell Simmons and the sexual assault allegations that were brought up against him. And they kind of have like a expose a of what happens in the music industry. What happens to black women, how our voices can be minimized even within the me to movement on how we feel like maybe we cannot express ourselves. How we feel like no one's going to hear us. We were just gonna have a conversation around this. So I hope you guys enjoy what we're about to do. Michelle, how did you like the documentary? What stuck out to you? How do you feel about it? Give us your thoughts. Give us your thoughts. It was it was intense. It was it wasn't long. It wasn't on now. But they covered so many different topics, like you said, an expo in the music industry. But they talked about the misogyny sort of of hip hop culture, and they talked about a woman's role in coming forward about sexual violence. There was a lot to unpack and I have to tell you, it was pretty triggering, listening to the women's stories. It was powerful. What about the stories we're triggering for you, if you don't mind me asking? Well, the story follows drew Dixon, and she talks about well, she sort of qualifies herself. She says, This is who I am. I'm this person. This is where I come from. And she talks about the assault and she's I it was pretty graphic. It was really intense when he talked about it when a survivor Because they did clips of different women, this is decades ago, but you could still feel the intensity. In one woman she was nearly in tears. She was like, it's three decades and you could still feel that, that intensity of that one moment. It was really triggering and I think people who've experienced that sort of powerlessness it would be we could really resonate with that. I know for me when I was watching it, I was just like, wow, they went their take on something like the industry, especially the black music industry. I grew up in watching 90s rap videos and how women were treated what they will call like, you know, a woman a hoe or bitch or whatever. And just thinking like, Whoa, what's that about? Why is this okay? Why isn't anyone saying uphold or like, you need to protect black women? Like why are we just kind of relegated to the side piece or pieces of meat like basically, like, you know, no one cared or seemed to care. Why do we feel as women Why would we feel okay with being In those types of situations, I want you to know that you weren't alone because I was growing up to in Brooklyn listening to this, I didn't understand why I felt so isolated. Because when I did say something like, you know, I like the music, but I don't, I don't want to be called a bitch. I don't wanna be called a hoe and then came down to me, it came down to me being too sensitive, or me not being black enough. And that was a big, big hindrance to me speaking up, because it got to the point where it felt like this is all we see of black women very hyper sexual imagery, and, you know, okay with being talked to this way and treated this way, and it became sort of an identity and I felt like if I spoke up against it, then I'm speaking up against being black. I'm not speaking up against misogyny, so that really silenced me. I'm with you. And I feel like it was so interesting, just because I spoke out about it too, or a question and they're like, well, that's just how it is. They're gonna paycheck they're getting they want to be famous. So it comes with the territory first. Why did we feel like that was the only way we could get in and get our voice and get like, you know any credit or get into the industry. And then it's also like this is as a black as the black culture or what we're doing or trying to put out there like this is the best that we can do. We're going to be judged on this, whether we want to be judged whether we care, this is also impacting like younger generations on how they think they can treat women or how they think what's okay and what's not. Okay. And whether they feel like they're empowered enough to speak out, because it seems like everybody's just going along with it. Yeah, that going along with it. I feel like that's so deep in our history, like in our culture, the documentary, kind of touched on it a little bit talking about slavery, but it does feel like when women are trying to break through in any industry, it's the expectation is to use your sexuality for it. That's how you gain acceptance, how you gain credibility, like you're a woman and this is your role and then when hip hop was coming out and we had different rappers It was like the little Kim's you know, the ones who were raunchy and putting it all out there. And those were the ones that made the money and were like really successful. And there were other rappers who aren't doing it. But the ones that had that impact were people who were using their sexuality in that way. And like you said, it affects how men of that generation looked at women. But it really, really affected the way we looked at ourselves. You know, we needed more role models, we needed to say, Okay, I don't want to be that I want to be this but it felt like especially in the 90s I felt like that's all there was. That was all you could be. I just found it interesting. Just watching the documentary just like how I know we there was an issue that came up around just like black men and women protecting black men, even throughout this and I feel like another element, which is something I didn't I guess I didn't think about you know, until I was watching it, and that even though we may feel like this is what they do to us, we're still going to protect them and and uphold them because we understand what it's like to be black in this world and how unfairly they are treated. I mean, we can just look around and what's happening right now. And see so much of that, but I also feel like it gets discounted on the other side, because we're still there. But then at the same time, it seems like we're being dogged. Where is our protection? I think that was something that I'm glad they touched on there. And I'm also glad they touched on like, light privilege, also, in the documentary since everyone that they kind of interviewed where, you know, they're conventionally attractive, like they said, and, and or one of them said, and, you know, they're all light skinned. So I think the message also is conveyed there because would their allegations have held up if it was someone that was darker would have made the New York Times would have been like, such a big deal? That's, uh, I actually didn't look at it that way. I was looking at that question sort of differently, like what you were saying how we protect black men, especially in a society where we can see that black men are under attack and the role and the responsibility of protecting them has fallen on us, even at our own expense, you know, and so much of my Anger isn't his ad, how we're treated, but it's also how women have attacked us, you know, and said, No, you must protect them. You know, it comes down to your race identity. You're betraying your race. But there was one woman who, who was in the documentary who was assaulted or claimed to be assaulted by Mike Tyson. She was also a dark skinned woman. She was Yeah. Yeah. And she was pretty viciously attacked, you know, by other women, women saying, you know, you know, you want to kind of sort of remember that I was really young when that happened. And I didn't understand the full breadth of it just because I was really young. And I want to talk about that, like the anger not only toward you make you feel towards like black men, but black women that have made you feel like you've had to protect them at the sacrifice of your own well being. Exactly, yeah, in a way. It's a little distorted thinking. It's saying, who will protect black men, if not black women who will do it we're in a society where they're constantly under attack. It falls on us to do it. But then the question is, who's protecting us Where does that leave us? And that's a question that I really, you know, sort of unanswered right now. Yeah. And what do you think? Like how do you feel about people saying that that's what we should do me it should just be about the collective whole in our history as black women, we've had to carry so much of the burden even way back when we had to carry a lot and I'm not saying that black men don't have their burdens either. And they thinking about like, well black men, how, you know, how they can be unjustly accosted, or or assaulted by the police and things like that, but I'm also looking at it from Why is it up to us when we need support and care to there's supposed to be a partnership in this and you say, you can list off like five things that black women were doing and but then you're like, think about well list five things that black men were doing. Wow. I've tried to have that conversation. I've been shut down so many times. Like No, no, no, don't go there. Just just you know, kind of like Know your place. Don't Don't bring that up. That's the whole thing too. And I feel like that's another thing about this documentary that really stuck to me is like know, your place was basically so evident, like an underlying thread through like this whole thing. Even with Russell Simmons and know your place, he gave you the shot, you should be honored. It could be anyone else, but he chose you. Like the whole he picked you. You're here because of him, whatever comes with it, consider it part of the job. Why is that? Okay? When is that ever? Okay? Hmm. I think the way you frame that, that exact sort of dynamic, if we expand that to just being black in America, that's what it feels like. It feels like it was sort of a microcosm of just being black in America, where it sort of like Know your place, you know, it's not okay to ask more to demand more rights, you know, just just accept what you have and be grateful for it. And it felt like that was compounded and then sort of, you know, intensified and that sort of, you know, that hip hop community that she was working in, we again, as women bore the brunt of it away. It's Sort of it's sort of like trauma where you can normalize these abuses and you can act out these abuses without really digesting the fact that this is abuse. It's almost like that like replaying it, you know, the way some people do and creating that environment creating that dynamic, but set now as a black man in society, you might be at the bottom, but in this media world, you're on top, but then who's at the bottom, she was the model, and she got raped, basically. And she went back to her friend's apartment and she like, tried to commit suicide. And she was just saying, like, how she was talking to her son and saying that, you know, his life would be better without her because what is she like? What can she do for him? And she was just like a fuck boy. Yeah, you know? Yeah, for men in power. And I was just like, yo, well, how many girls feel like that, whether it's in the music industry or not, that their lives are not their own, that this is all they have to offer is their body or their looks. That's it. Yeah, that's it. That's that was I was so glad she said that, that that also really struck me when she said that because that sort of objectification, you know, were just like those videos where we see these women These aren't you know, they're dancing around they're doing this and it's these aren't you know, looking at them as people we're not saying that is a person with goals and boundaries and thoughts and independence, you're looking at body parts, and you're surrounded by this and you you can you internalize this too sometimes, and I really related to that, that sort of feeling of being less than a person, you know, especially around men. It's I felt I fell for her like she really they were all they're all incredible, but they're also intense when they were talking about this and remember, this is decades ago. Yeah, but it's like one of those things when and I would like to you know, of course talk about your history and, and how watching this documentary related to that, but I know I was when I was watching it down. It was decades ago but to them it was like yesterday because they've never had the ability are known that they could actually be upset and grieve what happened to them or warn the person that used to be true left that industry because of all this she put up something she loved in order to feel like she's because she felt like she would never have peace. Otherwise, why do we let things like this happen? How do we come together? How do we unmute these voices? Like one thing I will say about the me to movement, it has shone a light shone a light across the board, how these people in power, just do what they want. And they're just like, well, I make the movies. I make the music. So I get them. I make the rules. How do you feel like that is okay. And like say without blinking, say like they're just saying Hi, how are you? The outright denial of it? And like even like Russell responded to Drew's allegations, he basically said, Oh, yeah, we just made out a couple times. Yeah, I think this is touches on a lot of things. stuff that I write and discuss when it comes to like sex addiction and trauma and dehumanizing and all that is you can reach a point where you really don't see the person as a person where you're, you're so surrounded, you know, like you're in your own head. All these women are just throwing themselves at you, you're entitled to them. They're making themselves available. Women just become objects. In a way it's really possible that he could have crossed a boundary and not even recognized it not even realize because in his mind, this isn't a person that's saying, No, this isn't a person that has the ability or the capability saying that, like the boundaries just don't exist. It's very narcissistic, but it it does happen to people, especially in addiction. So people who are acting out and they're acting violently, and it doesn't mean they're not responsible for their actions in any way. And it doesn't mean they don't deserve consequences for it. But there are people who just seem genuinely surprised like, Oh wait, you meant No, oh, wait, that was wrong for me to just grab you and touch you. You don't want that. What do you mean? So it sounds like too because if he was, you know, as rich and powerful as he was and constantly surrounded by this, he really just might have convinced himself that this is this is what women are we exist for this man feel like it's not just them, they have a lot of people that enable them so they're just as like culpable and don't worry about it. No will make it go away. But also the women too. Yeah, the ones who are saying it's just again that's not your place you asked for it? Well, that's just how it is, you know, you should have known better or you should have known betters are the ones that I really think need the most education though the victim blaming the victim shaming the sort of like I just can't relate to the fact that you were violated in some way there I think are the worst enablers. Well I agree and I was reading something I forget what it was some article somewhere and they were talking about This this behavior about enabling and how people do not want to see, like, if you look up to somebody, or you think they're attractive, you're a fan of theirs or something like that. It's so hard for you to see them as a human person, like a human being, like, it's so hard for you just think of them as doing something bad, because then that will challenge not only what you think about the person, but how a lot of people take stuff like that internal like, but how did I like someone like this? Bill Cosby is a good example of that. Oh, yeah. Bill Cosby, there's Oh, oh my god, that was my heart. I couldn't I didn't want to believe that I grew up on that. Just almost like a father figure in a way growing up. I was like Bill Cosby's, just, you know? Yeah, that that crushed me. I really, I can't say I didn't want to believe it. And that doesn't mean I didn't believe women. It's just when it started coming out. I just kept saying I really, I really hope this isn't true. I really hope it is. And I hope maybe there's a misunderstanding, but it came clear that this man You know, I mean he was convicted for it. So, like you were saying about how they feel that women are just objects to them. And they're not people, he can say all this because he can see it and he's like, this is where we should be, we should be better. But at the same time, he could do this behind the scenes. He's the all American, you know, safe black man. And just to bring it back to the documentary another thing that I always zone in or the hone in on the most random things, but the same woman who was the model she was saying that how she met up with him and she came back to New York and she noticed that he wasn't drinking and I just found that interesting because like, oh, he stopped drinking which is something you do for yourself to better you but he didn't think far enough ahead or think enough of other people like what he's doing to them. Wow. Yeah, I did. I actually I did not put that together. But yeah, that's really so he's making improvements. He's bettering himself and he's but still women are still just objects for him to use. However, he wants So see, this was one two that I thought was a role model he was talking about. I think he was talking about veganism and he was talking about meditation. And before I heard of all this, you know, I thought this is good we need to incorporate this we need this in our community, you know, some self reflection and he talks about this and then yeah, all the while, you know, he's allegedly assaulting me. I know that you had led an interesting life, little snippets that I I know, what type of parallels Do you see true story and models story, or just things that you feel like they didn't tell? We also should take into account while we're talking about like sexual assault and how and in black women in particular, there was a lot of parallels that I saw I was in the party world. So I was out drinking, dancing every night and I was all over the place. I was traveling and I had this life that were in my one part of my brain was like, This is amazing. I'm living my life. I'm doing everything I want where the rest My brain said, this is this is horrible. This is miserable. You know, people are taking advantage of you I'm drunk, I'm blacking out and waking up and places. And so it wasn't, it wasn't at all anywhere near as stable as any of the women that were on the documentary, but in the sense that, you know, feeling objectified feeling when I had nothing where I had no money, I had no direction, what I had was my body and it felt like that was it almost became sort of like a currency. You know, it was very much like, well, if I give you this, you give me that, you know, it was sort of that dynamic and to a different degree, but that was sort of what they were saying was, you know, hey, if you want to work here, you give me this, I'm entitled to this and that sort of feeling of men being entitled to my body has been a theme for for most of my life, and drew touched on something which he talked about and she left the music industry. And she said she she said when she left she lost her creativity. You know, she she basically abandoned at all. I really, really, I almost wish I could talk to her because I understood what that was. Because when I got sober, a part of me shut down, you know, it wasn't even it wasn't unconscious, a part of me shut down my creativity, my any sense of desire, and it wasn't just, you know, sex. It was anything you couldn't ask me, you know, where do you want to be in five years, I didn't want anything. I was just alive. But there was no desire, there was no joy. there was really nothing and I would go to therapy. I say, what do you do that makes you happy? Like I just I just want to keep being alive until I'm not. That was it. I went through that for for several years, I needed a lot of work. I needed to basically do what she did, which was to bring it to the surface. She said when she was assaulted, it was like she swallowed at home and she didn't digest it. And that's what it was. My life was just sort of like compacted into this tiny thing. And when I started to really go through counseling, go through therapy and went through trauma therapy EMDR had Notice I did everything I was like fixed this thing's not working. fix it. Yeah, journaling i was i was so but also that's very common for sexual assault survivors is to try to power through it like alright, just let it hurt and move on, you know, but the reality is it isn't it is a slow and sort of deliberate unraveling, you know, your brain will kind of reveal its healing slowly. And then when I was going through that process, I got my creativity back. I got my desire that I got, you know, I'm still working through it. But I really feel like that that process her journey really, really related to that because I was on a very similar journey. And when it comes to thank you for sharing your story, but how what led you to deciding to become sober? I hit I hit rock bottom more than once, but I I woke up without underwear where I didn't know where it was. I was I woke up walking If that makes sense, walking in the sun, I had no idea of anything. I'd been blacking out so much that I barely drank, and I would just blacked out. And I wasn't living a life where, you know, if I didn't go to work one day someone would notice or I wasn't with my family. I was isolated. I was I was just the drunk, blacker. And it got to the point where I just, I couldn't keep lying to myself and saying, this is this is a life that I could live I just couldn't do it anymore. And then I there's a lot more to it. There's a thing called axia. And it's it's basically like your body's like I said, it shuts down. So I really couldn't, you know, because I was dealing with alcoholism and sex addiction at the same time. So all of that just sort of shut down at once got to the point where I just couldn't I couldn't function anymore, and I couldn't lie to myself anymore. Yeah, so it was rough. I know sobriety was the finish line. I was like I'm gonna get sober undone. I didn't know sobriety was just the start. It really is the last time I didn't think I needed to be sober, but also because everybody else was like a hot mess like I was for the most part. But also thinking like when I finally got sober, I always tell people that not drinking is probably the easiest part of it. But everything else that comes with it is Whoa, have to kind of learn to navigate your life in a totally different way. Yeah, and see yourself in a totally different way and see yourself honestly, probably for the first time and being accountable sucks. Sometimes. I'm not, I would say I've never said I'm accountable and it felt good. I'm like, this sucks. I know. I know. It's like one of those things, but at least I can be like, you know, I'm gonna own it. Yeah. And but it's still like that feeling. You're like, Man, I'm with you. It was it's a journey is definitely a journey. It's not like something that you say, Oh, I I'm a sober I arrived and everything's great. Good, like that's not. That's not it, about the accountability, especially with the documentary with the whole meat to movement. What I'm really just starting to just lose patience with is so much of the women saying I'm accountable, I'm accountable for putting myself in a situation I'm accountable for the drinks that I drank, I'm accountable for creating the environment where this happened. You're not responsible for the actions of the person who's a predator or took advantage of it, but you know, you take your accountability, but I'm really just waiting for men to take accountability. I just own it. Just say it you know, you did this. I really want someone to just say I did this, you know, not to say that they're not they should be punished for their actions, but just that ownership, and it just feels like the burden of ownership for sexual assault falls on the woman or the the victim men get assaulted but the person it's like the first half of the film was sort of validating her, you know, like, I'm someone who should be believed. Why doesn't he validate himself? So glad that you brought this up? I picked up on that too. I feel like you can draw so many parallels for that like, like anything that's very traumatic that a person has to relive. It's like, it's always the onus always seems to be on the victim. You have to talk or rehash their trauma in order for someone to be like now I believe you. Yeah. Or questioning it is like, are you sure that you remember that that way? Really, yeah. If you black out which is common is one of the survivors that they blacked out to that's, you know, you want someone to remember how are you going to remember it's gone, you know, you've blacked out. It exonerates them. It is a good feeling. I think for someone to be able to say that it's got to be kind of a relief to say to just dismiss all of it outright. You know, life is simple. It's easy. You don't have to think about it. There's no question women lie, that's a move on, you know, that's that's a comfort for them. And that's sort of a privilege, I guess you could say for them. I personally, I mean, I'm I don't take certain things head on. I don't try to walk to someone to I don't seek that validation. You know, I've really gone through stages through coming forward and through my recovery where I felt like I wanted to be heard. I didn't even acknowledge what was it I experienced, then I acknowledged it then I spoke about it and I got all this well, you know, like, especially with sex addiction, how can you be raped? If you're a sex addict? That can't happen? Yeah, that definitely can happen. You know, just like we're still human beings, we still have the right to consent it can happen. I've gone through that so much now it's just sort of like you know, I'm just I'm gonna let you live in your ignorance. You're comfortable there. You're just gonna have to be there. I think with especially with recovery, we have to separate the that need for approval the need from someone because we may not get it. We still need to go through a recovery. We still need to process what happens even when people are saying, well, women lie. Well, what did you do? What did you wear? You know why were you It has to be separate from that, you know, and also has to be separate from accountability. We may not get the man saying, Yes, I did this, or I'm sorry, I did this I didn't realize or you know, like, you know, a jury saying they're guilty, we may never get the sort of justice, but we still have to go through our recovery. So I guess my question is for you like, and I agree, like, you should never really think I always read I read so much about forgiveness and acceptance is for you, not the other person. Because they, they may never get to where you want them to be. Yeah. And once I learned that, and I didn't I didn't actually learn that until I was sober. And then so much of the stuff that I was carrying for years that drove me to drink and do all act out and all types of ways. Yeah, started to really dissipate. Why do I have to just be okay with it never been okay. Or never it never. People collectively stand up and say like, no, this is wrong to do. I think to me, I would say the answer or the answer That works for me is that for me to reclaim my power I have to pay because part of me being okay is dependent on a person who is a predator, acknowledging his, his actions and himself, then I'm always vulnerable to that person. I'm always begging pleading for closure from him and I don't want him to have my power. I want my power. I agree. I mean, that's a very powerful way to look at it. Exactly. Yes. The woman in the documentary the journalists who said he took a part of me, you know, he still had that part of her there there are I think there are different different victims survivors and different predators, but there are people who want that it's like yes, you know, this is and I won't give them that. I absolutely won't. I'm just the work that I've done to you know, regain to to recover to you know, own myself to see myself differently. Again, not as a person you know, like in objects, you know, see myself as a human being, all of that is for me to have my power back. You Yeah, I'm not saying any of this was easy, by the way that I mentioned the years of therapy year. Yeah. And I want more than once a week, it was like my part time job. I know, right. I've been there. What type of advice for someone that's in your situation? Black women or black woman, and they are afraid to speak out? Or they feel that they're alone? Like, what type of advice would you give them? I'm going to be a little critical right now and I and I feel that but I would say to consider speaking to a professional before speaking in your community, because there is a lot of toxicity for women coming forward in our communities, specifically, especially against a black man. If that's the situation, it could be really traumatizing for someone to say this happened to me and here What did you do you you you, why didn't you Well, you know, all that, that can be that can really just stop your healing. All together, you know, you're gonna carry this sort of trauma. And I don't think I'm not saying that to mean that the people who are doing this are malicious. I think we have sort of a generational trauma. I think, I think we've been raised by people which I definitely was raised by women with trauma who was working, you know, trying to work through it, but definitely made an imprint on me, you know, growing up. So I don't think that this means these are bad people, these are people who want to hurt me, but at the moment, it may not be what you need for healing. So I would say to try to seek a professional before really opening up you know, depends on the situation. Another thing is owning what happened you I think with recovery, you we tend to start owning our part of the first I did this, I did that I shouldn't have done this, I should have done that. You have to own a part of it too. But you still have to you don't want over responsibility. You have to have boundaries around your ownership and say okay, I own my role but being vulnerable. Doesn't mean I deserve to be attacked. You know, being in a vulnerable situation doesn't mean I asking to be assaulted, you know, just start creating, you know, differentiating what's yours and what belongs to this person and put it to that person don't carry, you know, their violence, their sickness inside of you. So I would say just talking it out, I think drew was saying it she said, you know, she's starting to digest it, you're going to see it so many different ways. This stuff doesn't it isn't like you looking at once you cry, and you're done. I wish you're gonna cry over the same thing. 20 different ways. It's gonna come back 20 times again, it's gonna hurt just as much. But it's it has to you have to surrender to the healing, let let it happen, let it out. And then you know, you can start working on Perfect, thank you a lot of good, good insight there. And I appreciate your candor. I appreciate you being very honest and forthcoming about everything that you spoke about. Here. We can people find you? Well, I'm not. I'm right. I'm just on social media. The only thing I'm doing I was in works. I'm doing a TED talk before Coronavirus, happens and the talk was in about trauma specifically It was about sex addiction and boundaries and teaching children boundaries, you know, learning as a child to say no, and how that made an impact on me and my development. So we might resume talks with that. So I might do a talk. I will post that I'm definitely working on a memoir, which I hope will be out next year, and people can find you on Instagram. You have party girl PTSD, that's, that's me. Love it. And she has a really great feed. So check her out. Thank you. All right, friends. That's it for this episode. If anything you've heard about resonates with you. Feel free to always dm share it out to people that you know that you feel they may resonate with. And until next time, talk soon take care. Bye Transcribed by