A conversation with Dr Lutza Ireland, Making Mental Health and Neurodiversity Approachable to the Masses

Dr Lutza Ireland is an Autistic/ADHD multi-award-winning social designer, psychologist and international speaker located in Australia. Her design guidelines and trainings have been integrated into national and international organizations looking to build capability for neuroinclusion and mental health.

She uses design thinking and co-design methods to develop systems, services and resources for cognitive and sensory accessibility, based on universal design. Dr Lutza currently specialises in the design, implementation and consultancy on neurodiversity employment pilots; and design of neurodiversity and mental health related learning and development (L&D) services and materials. Clients and collaborations include Accenture, Avanade, Google and Rio Tinto.

Dr Ireland can be reached through her LinkedIn page:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-lutza-ireland-5b028116b/

Transcript

…Today on life in the neurotypical universe. We have Dr Lutza. Ireland from Australia. Dr Lutza. Tell us about yourself…Well hello everybody. I feel like I'm being put on this. I mean even though we've been literally talking about an hour we just actually started to record it…Oh…I always getting to this Stacey when I have to tell about myself because I had a very varied. Work history and I traveled around. Quite a bit So I never know how much or how little to, to say so I'm just going to free flow presenting. I've got a background in…psychology. And I was working in mental health for quite a while And what I have noticed is…We are always running up against time. up against money because resources are so scarce in mental health. So I'll find it. There were a number of things around education that, That are really repetitive. So we just have to…keep talking about anxiety and depression in a way of what some of the signs are what some of the feelings are and how in spite of some of the adaptive responses of our bodies. But when we are. Kind of somewhat restricted by the amount of available Medicare rebates that people have for sessions For example, we are always trained to give out extra materials for people to be able to I read up more. On whatever we are talking about. And so one of the things I started to notice is that…A lot of lot of people. find some of the reading and some of the material useful, but sometimes I heard feedback that it made them. Feel even worse or the way something looked for example a brochure A leaflet or a booklet. was often really childish So people were using a lot of cliparts to try to do illustrations and especially with adult clients it started to become a really big problem that. It was getting harder and harder to find material that that would really nicely supplement whatever we were talking about. And so one of my previous careers was in fashion and fashion design. and then a stint in hospitality as well. And I started to think about, how badly mental health is branded. Because from fashion and from working in bars one of the things that we know is that. If you want to sell something…You kind of sell it or make it attractive partially by making it aesthetically pleasing by making it desirable and by making people feel good about theirselves. And there was quite a stark contrast to, the way mental health resources were. especially in that time I'm talking about 10 or so years ago. They're usually presented in really quite Academic jargon base ways That is. Pretty hard to relate to. And so I had this idea of basically making mental health hot. To say that instead of treating it as something that is a disease and fixate and recover from it. Why don't we just…go. for mental health in a way of, this is a good thing to have. Let's have it. Let's let's want it. and so I. did a doctorate in design which is in interactive and visual design. That was on how to, how to develop. Mental health resources for education. That actually engages These people around mental health in a way that is both evidence-based academically sound. as well as attractive to look at and user-friendly…Did I summarize myself up? Well you're summarized a little bit of it. I know when we first met each other which. Going back almost a couple of years now. at the time you were working as the head of neurodiversity for the Queensland school district. And I also remember that you had a very recently at that point, been diagnosed as being autistic…on the other hand I also know that you are ADHD. So first off we do know that you were adult, adult diagnostic a diagnoses for…autism How how far back was the ADHD diagnosis? That actually came…Came…before the. Autism diagnosis in in some ways but it's a really, really interesting and what I'm noticing is somewhat typical experience of adult females but what happens to me, So…It started When I'm when I was…Hmm. Let me think about it…It started when I when I got pregnant and I had hyperemesis and that basically means that people are nauseous and. vomiting. Like a lot. And it doesn't sound necessarily as bad as it is So when we are just talking about nausea, I used to think that nausea is what you may experience after a really bad hangover or., Some kind of guest freaky illness but it was really unbearable So I wasn't a lot of medication. And one day I ran out of medication went to my GP again really really sick. heavily pregnant and and. Because I call it somebody here from like just some nausea medication. Yeah Cool. I'll give you a script for that But I just also wanted to tell you a couple of things that I think other people probably wouldn't tell you. which is that. your future child. Likely has the chance to be autistic and ADHD Like you. That was like, Dude, I'm 38. I'm a psychologist All my friends are psychologist. Nobody has ever mentioned the autism and ADHD for me. especially I got, I'm qualified in in the UK and in the UK to become a psychologist. You also need about 200 hours of your own therapy. So I was like I've had so much therapy of every sort. It's never come up. Why would you think I'm autistic and ADHD? But also like don't even answer me just give me a handful of stuff to make me feel better And and I'm out of here. And I wasn't even offended I was a bit like, just why just, just leave me be I've got enough problems already. I just want to kind of get through this pregnancy. but. he was kind of talking about, And that it's very likely that, The child that I'm going to have will be…Difficult to sooth and have colic and, some of these things that that was just really, kind of difficult to hear as somebody who's pregnant and waited many many years to. To become pregnant. Cause I was very set on once I have a child everything is going to be amazing and I did a want Anyone to tell me. Otherwise. And so…It just basically went to the back of my mind my child was born. she had colic she was very difficult to soothe. After not having slept for many many months I was really at the brink of Basically just death survival. of it's really difficult to get through the day and feel like Still of sound mind So sleeping became a really big issue. And we did the sensory sensitivities which I previously didn't know about really skyrocketed as well. And so I went back to see this GP and I said that I I'd really like to do sensory assessment because I'm finding it Very difficult to, To listen to the. The crying noises. and so I I got a referral to see an occupational therapist went to see the occupational therapist And I said that I'm finding it really difficult to…To hear the the child crying, noises. and like to do an assessment and…she was saying, that it's very very normal for mothers to, to find that it's very dysregulating to listen to children crying And I was like I'm sure that everybody does. But to me it's not the emotion dysregulation It's literally the noise that is just difficult. And it was like yeah but children crying are difficult i'm Like, yes. I know that it's difficult for everyone but it's difficult for me to the point where when I'm in the balcony I literally have to back away from the balcony because I just want to jump off to get away from the noise. And there was one of those things that looking back was a very frequent pro problem that because I've got quite a flat presentation and my voice unlike yours doesn't go up and down and speak in a rhythm And my fleet facial expressions can be quite. flat as well, which are as we know very often called. autistic traits. When I calmly summarize things that are problematic because I don't have the usual distress expressions that other people might have. People often think that the problem is a lot smaller than what it actually is. and so when I was talking about this to the occupational therapist She did an assessment And I had a diagnosis of sensory processing disorder. Which basically you really can't do much about it but there were some techniques on how to…use ear plugs and. And whatnot. And it took me quite a while to go back to my GP and say to him. Okay so you mentioned something about the autism and ADHD…Now now I'm ready to now I'm ready to hear a bit more. And…And I was really really lucky because he is an amazing person who has an approach with evolutionary psychology. So he was talking about neurodiversity perhaps not with these exact terms. But he was talking about the different. Neurological Ways of being wired enabling certain things that are very adaptive. it might be problem solving or focusing attention in different ways. And that gave me more of a buy-in to think that. Yeah that actually applies to me quite a bit. A lot more than what I thought it would apply when I only knew the DSM diagnosis for autism and ADHD. So I started to. familiarize myself with ADHD. quite a bit more, but honestly with autism. It took me quite a while to get around that one. and the main reason I diagnosed ADHD through a psychiatrist was because That has more of a medication support element. So I thought okay I'd like to try what that one is like. and so I got my ADHD diagnosis first and it was probably a good six months. Until I started to think about autism. Because honestly This is very reflective of. The stereotype that stereotypes that we have even as mental health professionals which is…not only unfortunate but. It can be absolutely harmful with not recognizing the extent of what autism can be like and can present like, because I thought that everything that I knew from autism and about autism I was just not really relatable. like people saying things about…Repetitive behavior, and stuff like that I was like, I don't have any of that to or…And then of course, when you put it in more of a, more of an everyday context, I realized that some of the things that I wouldn't have called stemming for example just always picking my nails and playing with my cuticles…These are the stuff that repetitive behaviors can be like, or when people were talking about special interest I was like but I'm not into trains or I don't have a Marvel book collections. But to be fair I'm a researcher. So I'm researching stuff like a demon. and it was also a very interesting realization that for females things can be so different. with presentation. So if someone someone is, collecting trains, Automatically people tend to think about autism a lot more than if somebody is collecting recipes. Because if you collect recipes then you just going to be a good wife and make a husband very happy One day. So I just really had to, realize that some of these social constructs around what the autistic criteria is and how it was framed as. Such basically young autistic boy with the stereotypical interests That's actually very very restrictive. and so. that took me. Quite a while too. To really think about my. Internal ableism which is a very offensive word Yes. Describing the fact that I had to realize that I actually had a bias. in thinking that. I don't want to be associated with how autism is, often framed and described. And by now I kind of forgot your question. I think you were talking about me having pain. Manager of We have a diversity which I was and having been diagnosed with autism and ADHD, which I was as well. You've said a lot There's a lot too Unpack there. one thing you mentioned that I just have to comment on because it's one of my favorite topics. you mentioned how I have more melody in my voice then you have a more of a monotone voice. And that was not. My normal voice I, as most of the listeners probably already know I was diagnosed at 54 as being autistic. And prior to that I had a very flat monotone voice as stereotypical for. Autistics. And totally unrelated to being diagnosed I happened to be studying with a amazing vocal coach That's probably one of the tops in the world. And I learned what he told me. was he was going to teach me. To put emotional sounds into every word that I said…And I did it. And it was something that you can learn actually. And w w what to me is really interesting is a lot of people will say that is masking I'm trying to mask and fit in with everybody else but I don't look at it that way. I know you haven't been shared with our audience yet but I I know a few secrets here. and I I know you originally were born and grew up in hungry. so obviously English was not your native tongue by any means. And now you live in Australia where English is the. The normal language for the majority of the people. But do you consider speaking English now as being masking? Or do you just consider it a tool of that you need to communicate because that's what you need to communicate with the people around you. And I I could fill in the blank for you obviously you learned the tool because that's a tool that you need to communicate. It's not masking of hiding anything of trying to hide your Hungarian background. It's merely, this is the language that they speak…and what I found out. and again this was it was totally unrelated to the autism that I. Did the training and the vocal. But what I found out was the majority of people in the world. Speak emotional. That that is the language they use It doesn't matter whether the language is French emotional or whether the language is Spanish emotional or even Hungarian emotional. But there's…emotion in the language and the emotion actually overrides the words…And I just look at it much like you now speaking English because that's the language of the people you're around and it enables you to communicate and in. a far better manner than if you tried talking Hungarian to them. I've just learned that, Speaking emotionally and having emotional sounds in my voice. Makes the communication. Easier for the other people to hear. Now the funny part is I'm autistic and I do have challenges. Picking up those tonal qualities and the facial expressions and such of others. So it doesn't help me a single bit from the standpoint of…me understanding what they're saying. But…where it does help. is. Eh they now feel a humanness a warmth a connection, so that when I speak. There is much more. I guess uptake you would say of what it is I have said as you mentioned when you say it and it comes across in that flat. Monotone voice. It almost gets a discounted it's it's almost as if it's subtracting away from what the words are saying. Because emotionally they're picking up that emotional tone is if I was saying that that way myself, that would mean I'm just not really into it It isn't that important I'm disconnected. And they're just applying that to it Not thinking that no this is the way you speak No matter what it is. And the words are carrying the information. So, kind of a rampage on that just because it's a huge thing. for me…so that that. That. I don't know where that fits in but it's in somewhere. I think it fits in. perfectly and I really agreed that for me…Even speaking emotionally. Always speaking English. It's not masking but I definitely think that. It needs to be understood as a way of translating. and on that note what I would say is where do, where do we it's masking or translating the difference is that. Masking happens. Basically because the fear of retribution. It's it's saying that unless I behave in a certain way, something bad is going to happen. And often it does. So. very often I really have to say, especially when When autistic people or neurodistinct people are vital part of other minority groups as well. there is often a lot more judgment then and often there is a lot more. Even physical danger So they must because they have to and it's not always a free choice to not to mask. And so what I like with this. Translation angle. That it says that. I am. I am speaking this more common language or trying to speak this more common language of emotional tone of voice. Because that brings in a commonality for for understanding. But I also have to say that, whether it's masking or translating it's still can be a lot of energy. So I have find myself that often I. I speak emotionally on purpose. And with being ADHD. I can get quite excited about things And then I become a lot more animated when it's a topic of interest. But when I get tired then especially when. My sensory sensitivities are quite overwhelming and I'm just trying to. Keep things together. I may not have the same amount of energy to put into appearing emotional in terms of facial expressions body language and tone of voice. And I think that's when it would be really important too. To understand that we translation. If something is not your native language, it still may take you longer and more effort to translate into a language And similarly when you hear that, Somebody is not a native, for example English speaker If you are. You have a lot more patients. For them making grandma. Grammatical errors pronounce. words differently, not know certain things. And I would really like that. To be a part of this two way translation that I can try to be more emotional at the same time The other person also needs to understand that, It's not my natural way of expressing myself So as much as I'm making an effort to appear more emotional they need to make an effort to understand that even if I appear less emotional, that is my natural way. And by the way I actually now find it very effortful. To effortful to translate from English to Hungarian because I left…Over 20 years ago. so I would really struggle with translation. I think that's really very much what happens with learning to do emotional speaking which is the terminology I use for it. You're right at first. you have to concentrate on it You have to think about it You catch yourself falling off falling off from it and then you have to catch yourself and go back. But as you do it more and more just like as you just said, After 20 years. Your original language now is actually the foreign language to you. And your foreign language is now your native language They flip flopped. And it's the same thing of learning how to speak emotionally. Is the more you do it at some point this transition happens where it becomes the normal way that you speak. And for me to now speak monotone is actually hard work. Because it's now not natural for me anymore but it's taken six or seven years. of doing it. And I I work in jobs where I do a lot of speaking I do a lot of training and to those kinds of things So it,, Far. than other people If I just added a computer screen and typed on the screen all day I probably wouldn't have picked it up as quick. As…the fact that a good half of my day is is communicating. So I agree with you at first It's definitely effort. but as you go on now the funny part I think is a as you mentioned how. People should meet us. Halfway essentially I mean it was weren't your words but I think that's really what you were getting at…I like to say first off that and usually it's the other way around In this case where we're kind of flip-flopping it usually it's the autistic person They want to meet them halfway. And. that certainly would be fair I mean if we could meet them halfway that would be fair. But the reality is…if it's a four-lane road and they want us to take two lanes and they want to have two lanes And the unfortunately if we don't have the capacity to handle two lanes we might only be able to take one lane and they got to take 75%. Because of…lack of capacity And I think that is really the problem. Of asking. People who speak emotionally which is the primary,, World. there's plenty of studies from science studies that have been done. All kinds of crazy ways. That really show that we respond to sounds with emotions before we even process them as being sounds that our our brain recognizes…And I think that puts them in that kind of the same point They can't. Be 50 50 because it's hard wired in them to be listening for these emotional tones. What I found that I think is just funny as heck is…in order to get them to even understand that flat affect monotone. Not looking at them In other words seeming disengaged. Can be the normal. You've got to say that though in an emotional way to get through to them That it actually means something to them Because if you just say it in a flat effect it doesn't. It doesn't land…So it is it's just kind of a it's kind of funny. I really agree and often because one of the things that, I think. Probably always stay some back seat for me in terms of talking about it, because the main interest tends to be autism and ADHD but, I'm actually dyspraxic as well. And that's not something that is perhaps as as well known on much talk the bad As some of the other newer types. But in terms of what impacts my life and my everyday and day-to-day existence the most I think it would probably be dyspraxia for me. Because in my case that also means…My coordination is heavily impacted in a way that I have to consciously think about things. So if someone says I'm gonna, get up from this chair and make a cup of tea. They don't have to think about okay I'm going to have to push back the chair then move push myself up move to the left turn around halfway Like I have to consciously process everything. Not very well by the way So I'm still going to bump into a number of different furniture. Burn my hands slightly with the hot water. drop the cup. maybe not all at the same one tea making, Procedure but during a day it would all happen. And so because that is so exhausting for me already. And. If I have to do certain things that may be noisy and I have to discriminate…numerous knowledges on top of each other So that might be, if you're in an open plan office they might be a chatter There might be traffic there might be phone ringing, and then someone talks to you. That's like four noises already that you have to discriminate in order to listen to that one person talking to you. So when you combine these things, my, my days unless I do things that I'm really absorbed in, essentially spent on energy accounting and energy accounting is. Is it worth? The energy that would make a cup of tea to actually have that couple of days. And when you have to think about literally every single thing like this. It gets so exhausting that part of part of socializing or social interactions become…part of this energy accounting. That is it worth my effort to speak emotionally and put up put my facial expressions in pro social order. so that that exhaustion will come out of for example I don't know not making that cup of tea that would wake me up. And that's what I kind of worked on this approach of what would give the biggest bang for my buck. And so usually instead of emotional speaking for every interaction, I choose the high stake interactions to be more emotional. And hopefully be let off the hook. Where with the less emotional ones. So if I have to apologize to someone because I made a mistake, I know that that's always high stakes so I put emotions in it And again this is not a fake apology. But…For me saying…Sorry That's my fault…That is the same as when I say I'm really sorry I didn't realize that I did that. How did it make you feel like that's what people think is more of an apology It was always a more sincere or more caring. Less for me saying sorry. Sorry It was hurtful It was my fault. That to me is equally caring. so basically. I think…Often when I talk about the fact that I may not always sound emotional or I may sound bored or disengaged or look away, I always put a lot of emotion into that. And I say people that I appreciate their understanding with that. In a way that is quite emotional and I'm hoping that that will carry me through Till the next top up, but I have to, so…Emotional dump. Into it…I think I'm fortunate. And I heard a term. that I was talking to a young gal a 16 year old who is Asperger style autism. And…She used the terminology I hadn't heard it before. I don't think it's new from her but I just hadn't heard it myself of a social battery. Of your social battery getting run down…And I just liked that analogy of social battery versus other ways we've talked about it. and. For me it's maybe a little different the way it works for me is I am what I like to refer to as a, being a outgoing introvert. Because I think outgoing and being shy and introvert and extrovert are completely different things. And to me the shy or outgoing is more how do you show up? And the introvert or extrovert is how do you recharge and get your self back on your feet again? And…Being the outgoing person or as my wife would say, being like your mother…I love…chatting and talking with people and it gives me a it charges my social battery or I guess I should say. It feels as if it's charging my social battery that I can I can do it So if I'm going to a conference or something like that which is quite taxing to spend all day. Meeting new people and introducing yourself and all that kind of stuff. But I, I enjoy doing it It seems really fun. And it's not until afterwards when I guess the adrenaline dies off that I recognize that my emotional battery has been flat for probably half the day. so it is kind of an interesting thing of it seems to you you notice it more as it's happening. For me I get wrapped up in the situation. That…I'm just having so much fun in this situation I don't even recognize that a I guess it would be similar to people who are into different athletics They they go out for a run and they're just so into doing their run that they don't realize that then when they get home they're just their dead for the rest of the day because they burned themselves out But while they were doing it, there was so much enjoyment in it…That they didn't recognize the drain that it was actually. Causing…So, yeah. obviously a what it points out is just being autistic doesn't mean were identical by any means. definitely. And I think. Perhaps one way of. Thinking about it is that…With all autism ADHD one of the concepts I really like is the interest based nervous system. Because. when you go to a conference for example I take it It's a conference that really interests you. So same with me If I go to a conference if I'm at, university or if I'm at work, I'm really interested in, how can we do things better and hearing new information and new perspectives That's that's really effortless. And I can get really overtired and over socialized without realizing it in the moment. What I find a lot more taxing in terms of social interactions is the non task focused and non-interest focused social interactions. And you mentioned my work at at the government department of education and I have learned so much I had a wonderful team there. And government organizations just like every kind of sector. They have their own. They have their own culture. And one of the things that happens for example in consulting environments. Is everything is very quick and task focused. So…on unknowingly a lot of organizations are a lot more, I guess. ADHD and autism friendly than they think they are because they are already set up to this. Let's work on this Let's focus on the task Let's let's kind of move on to the next same. but often with government organizations and not for profit organizations, relationship building and the pace of thing is quite quite important. And so I remember even when I was working at not-for-profits, I would be sitting in meetings and 20 minutes into the meetings we only told about how everybody's family is And, and I was like, okay can we get started Like can we just talk about the thing that needs to be talked about. I didn't say…exactly like this but I I I knew that I had the tendency to come across as quite abrupt and, and uncaring, Which is not to say that I don't care about. How people are and…how their life is But to me that's a conversation about them and how they are, because then the task is to catch up on how we are as opposed to a meeting about X Y Z When I want to talk about X Y Z. And so what was really useful for me is when I was talking to one of my colleagues and and I said so, Basically am I just supposed to sit in these meetings sit through these. Very lengthy. socializing politeness interactions. because purely breathing the same air in the same physical space. We'll then create, create some magical sense of cohesion that will. Benefit me in a way of…now your a part of us. And she was like yeah, that's essentially what happens And then ultimately people will be a lot more likely to prioritize when you're asking them something Then when a stranger asks them something because. They already know you because you sat in that space and it was like, Well okay I didn't know that And from then on, it really helped me to sit through things where I didn't see the point of it by understanding that that's not a point for me That's a point for the other person And. That's one of the way of translating is, that's patients from my part to go through, the, the social interactions. of small talk and whatnot. Yeah it's interesting to hear that That governmental agencies are virtually the same no matter where we go in the world…I did for a long time I did a consulting work and I instead of going into doing my own. Marketing of myself for the consulting I just went through through recruiters and took on temporary positions It was in IT So it's very easy to pick up great high paying. IT positions for six months eight months whatever whatever time it is. And the first one I ever did was actually for a county government. And…it's also the only one that I ever called the recruiter and said get me out of here This is so brain dead I'm going nuts Cause they they they…don't do anything…Yeah I will say about, My, my team there. and the department of education. I was very unpleasantly surprised how incredibly productive. The whole, the whole diversity and inclusion and and organizational transformation team was because part of me taking the job was thinking. Well okay Government like how hard are people going to work Like I can probably work two hours a day and just take it easy for the rest of it. People were working so hard. It was one of the most productive teams I have ever worked with with a director who had. Such…Such common sense Like for me somebody having a common sense is pretty much the highest compliment you can you can imagine. But I would say that that program that we have created. is actually light years ahead of. some of the some of the most celebrated corporate neurodiversity pilots that. that exists at the moment So, yeah I I think it's very dependent on teams as well. Yeah What I've seen is that they're they're very caring people or they they really are concerned about what they do but the pace of the environment. Tends to be just as you say a little slower a little less. Direct and focused. Then in the in the corporate world. It's not that they. But on the other hand when you look at frequently what they're paid you can understand why maybe they don't put out quite the same effort you definitely,, do make more renumeration in the corporate world. obviously though there's higher expectations of productivity that goes along with that hire a paycheck. you had mentioned way back when we started. about recognizing from. both your design experience and your work in the hospitality world. About the the need to and I'm going to use the term You didn't use it but a of marketing of actually marketing things. And. In my mind marketing comes down to I had worked for this one gentleman who was very very successful with building a chain of stores. And he was telling me about after he sold his chain of stores for way too much money. he was in interviewing for a job as a a retail consultant for a very very high end consulting firm. And…Marketing I think as a challenge for people who are autistic. Because. Marketing is all about emotions. And most of us autistic people tend to be a pretty logical and practical about things…And I, I always remember the way he he put it was a the interview They handed him a pen. And they said. Sell this to me…And as autistic individuals we would probably start talking about the material that's made out of in the durability and how many meters worth of of ink there is in there to write the line, however long And. all these wonderful technical aspects about the pen. And. What he said though and it got him the interview It got him the job they say the guy was very very very good And in the marketing realm, what he said was. You want this pen because it feels good in your hand…And I think that's the part that we miss when we're talking about marketing the whole concept of whether it's mental health whether it's autism whether it's neurodiversity as a whole. That…Most of the world does respond to emotions If they didn't we wouldn't be paying the billions of dollars into marketing and advertising that we do pay obviously this is American football not, international football but the super bowl. I don't know what a spot cost It's like $50 million for 30 seconds or something It's. It's ridiculous…But companies wouldn't pay that much If that emotional message that they're delivering Cause they're not giving the tech specs by any means in those 30 seconds. they wouldn't be paying that money drug companies wouldn't be paying the fortune They paid to come up with these silly names for drugs. if the sound of a word didn't mean something…Point I'm kind of coming back to is I I know again knowing a few of your secrets. that while you were at the school. you had developed a mental health education program. And I very much remember having the discussion about Mary bringing in brownies and and getting accolades. And Lutza Lutza got nominated for a national award. And…Went on and won the award I mean it's not nothing to be embarrassed about that you happen to have won more awards in more fields than most of us alive. But really what it was showing was your awareness of marketing. So just. Tell me talk some more around the the thoughts about marketing the whole thing I mean you mentioned a little bit about marketing mental health. But more so the big terminology now. Of course is and neurodiversity. And,, what is neurodiversity, and some people who have been involved in a long time want to make neurodiversity mean not the same thing that diversity means, which seems a little ridiculous because you're just putting the word neuro. in front of the word Diversity in diversity already has a definition. Which is all humans…So I don't think we can change the fact that diversity means all humans just because we brought neuro against it. but we certainly recognize that…There's interest. Some people are approaching it as being, oh let's just go hire autistic people. other people are approaching it as. Yeah there's a range of ways that our brains process and perceive and think. And. That is neurodiversity and that involves all humans. If it's brain functions. You're in the bucket. So. Just give me your thoughts What do you think about the the whole neurodiversity and marketing neurodiversity…Oh, Lots of Tilex. I I will I will go back to the award for. For a moment because. The reason why…Eating it is. it is quite important is because…The way I. Design my resources are based on a framework. That was the outcome. My PhD research. And the research essentially involved. Multiple stakeholders from the community to discuss mental health Because what I noticed is, We have the professionals using…accurate and evidence-based terms But those terms are often alienating and evidence-based for example around how biology works. Doesn't necessarily resonate with lived experience. At the same time people who have a lot of lived experience in marketing terms. they may make things more hot more relatable. So the uptake of it is more engaging. But we can't cut out Evidence-based completely based on how one person feels. and at the same time often loved ones and carers and the environment that we are in. tends to get quite neglected When we talk about what are we it's neurodiversity mental health or what have you. So basically. What I did is I created this framework with…with people who have lived experience, people who our loved ones and carers and mental health professionals. Including, evidence-based health knowledge and the framework is about how to talk about. mental health from multiple perspectives how to talk about invisible health from multiple perspectives so that we don't just have a basic understanding of what it is. But we have the ability to communicate about it and we have the ability to critically think. About what we are saying and how we are feeling. And so the award was to me very important, purely because of the fact that it represented work from many many dozens of people who have very freely given their time and expertise to the cause. So I feel like the award is like everybody's award whoever participated in. Cool design based research because it actually went somewhere. And when some tangible with this resource. And so the response to neurodiversity is that. Similarly to what I initially noticed in mental health, we have academia and, thinking around what neurodiversity can represent. who's included Who's excluded. what does neuro mean what does cognitive mean What does diversity mean So there can be a number of academic arguments for how to position this. And then we have the lived experience and we have a lot of I guess homegrown advocates who base a lot of information that they have, on their own experiences or their own and their friends and loved ones experiences. And that of course doesn't give the full spectrum of experiencing either. So when we think about neurodiversity to me, The question really is who are we looking at serving? what is it that we are trying to accomplish in here? And originally the term was ment for a civil rights movement. But I think. To me, diversity just basically means differences. And so if we think about neurological differences, That literally means everyone. Everybody has differences because no two people are the same. And in agreement with you, I think. When we talk about diversity. We need to think about. Do we want to achieve inclusion Do we want to achieve a sense of belonging to everyone to say whatever difference you have? You belong because you have a role in…your community in your society. You can be love You can be accepted and embraced for who you are. So come along to me that's that's the essence of neurodiversity, but it's not to say. That everybody has the same needs and everybody has the same strengths and challenges. And I think this is where we often get unstuck. and you'll often hear me talk about the diversity hunger games which I think is one of the essence of what's happening in here. That when we have this scarcity mindset, by the way for good reasons because what we have seen in, for example in my career spent in health and human services. We are always understaffed underfunded and and scrambling for resources. So of course people have the scarcity mindset that we're going to run out of funding and we do and we're going to run out of resources and we often do as well. And so instead of saying, diversity is there so we can take advantage of different perspectives. And evolve in innovative ways. We say diversity is basically the minorities who deserve funding because they have it bad enough to warrant some money getting chopped at the problem. And that is a really really bad approach to diversity. Because what it essentially means is that it's pitting people against each other. Because minorities essentially have to prove. How much was they are off compared to other people. Because that has been traditionally the way of getting funding to get support. is positioning yourself compared to. People who have it. Better and say I'm struggling a lot more. Yeah and and that is a very strongly deficit-based approach So I think when we say neurodiversity is only for what we often call neuro minorities, we are really risking. Creating a very strong division where people need to categorize their selves into different minorities. In order to get noticed. And yes, this has been an established way So I'm not saying that anybody's doing anything wrong And of course on on the other side, people can find a lot of sense of belonging and community and acceptance through belonging to a certain group. I'm just really wary about. the goal being that we need to be…Able to take funding from the big pot. and and that's when they get pitted against with them. With the…diversity hunger games of if you look at often DEI programs at companies or For example in Australia we have the national disability insurance scheme. It often goes into, point systems of how how much impairment can you prove that would warrant a certain amount of money or support coming your way or a in company terms? We've already done the gays or the women or whatever the flavor of the month is. what is this neurodiversity thing that that we need the money chugged at Like what do they do? How hard do they have it badly off? That's generally not a very helpful way. thinking about diversity. It comes to me as you're saying that. I never thought of this term before. But…Neurodiversity to me it would be we have to look at diversity. Which is the root of it. And in diversity there are certainly some segments that are getting more money put towards it than others, but there's the recognition that. Amongst all humans there are some groups that have more and there are some groups that have less, and they're all part of diversity Even if you're on the have more group maybe you're the problem in diversity but you're still part of diversity. so when we put neuro in front of it, We can't say suddenly it becomes. Less than everybody. Now what the term that just came to my mind is a neuro segmentation seems to be what everybody's promote or not everybody but some people are promoting neuro segmentation where oh it's only these people that…under this neuro category and everybody else I don't know what you are but you won't belong to us. as opposed to diversity which is simply saying. There's all different people that didn't know. Very by gender by orientation by culture by different ways. And…all of us together make diversity And we want to obviously utilize those variety of perspectives to build strength. Whereas what I see happening in the I'm going to call it neuro segmentation Now I like this one. In neuro segmentation It's it's this fight to say we're more important because we're so-and-so. I think as you say the the diversity hunger games we're we're now turning it into the, oh because I think differently. which. Gets down to being kind of funny if we just roll it back into the medical field…we know that if we study autism just pick that one For instance, I'm sure we could pick many other conditions and it's very similar. There has been three major people that were involved with creating the current definition of autism. And obviously one was discounted which was Bettelheim and the refrigerator mama. Approach. but then we had Kanner who it was the nonverbal child and then we had Hans Asperger who was the, young brilliant professor. type. phenome I guess we'd say, but. What we really come down to a I guess I'm getting to is that this isn't like having COVID where we go run a, a PCR test and you have it or you don't have it. this is something that a bunch of humans Yes They're knowledgeable They're learned people. but we've also seen that, we had a little knowledge and learner to people that thought the earth was flat And then we had knowledge and learned it old people that thought the earth wasn't flat And then we had, Newton obviously brilliant person And we now have quantum mechanics which shows that Newton wasn't perfectly right…This one though we can't test. You can't really test I mean all these definitions of being autistic being ADHD. are Very much interpretations. And human decisions around making groups…So it becomes really funny when you look at it from that standpoint of these are fake categories to start with. And when I say fake categories I simply mean that…In 10 years from now the categories are going to be different They're going to shift again. They're there. this isn't established science at this point This is very much evolving. Stuff. And and we're having these these crazy fights and arguments. without looking. at the. Way that the rest of the world interacts and interrelates with it…Over fake categories…And it's really kind of funny when you think about it I think one of them is, I know you and I tend to use the terminology of it neurodistinct. instead of there was another term that has no particular standing other than somebody pulled it out of wherever they pulled it out of, of neurodivergent. But. I think what a the difference is is you and I both recognize that you have to…speak in the way that the market wants to hear things. And just like, the the gentleman I worked for who I got the job by saying it's how the pen feels. Well we know words have, have a sounds the sounds of words carry meaning to most people. there's the the Kiki. and Buba effect studies. And if for anybody that hasn't read those just go put in Kiki K I K I and Bouba B O U B A, and it will pop right up It's it. pick your favorite your your favorite search engine whichever one it is just use Google…What it really comes down to is in this What I find so interesting is they've actually tested autistics again this category of where where is the edge and that you are autistic You're not autistic I like the term of I use functionally autistic. The medical world won't say you are but you suffer just as much as the rest of us So., walks like a duck quacks like a duck., I I'll I'll consider you to be a duck then. but the Kiki and Bouba fact was these researchers made up these two words and they are fake words They don't they sound like words but they really have no meaning whatsoever. And they took two shapes. There was one that was a star. of like the comic book POW kind of star And there was a rounded blobby kind of shape. I've kind of like a hundred old funny looking potato or something. And. When they expose that to the general populous. It's something like, I can't remember the exact figures What does 88% or something like that Of the general populace? We'll take Kiki is a star and Bouba is the rounded one. But when we go to the autistic population the last version of the study I read and it's been done multiple times. 55% of autistics actually discriminate between those two words meaning either of those two shapes. So we have a group of people that basically don't recognize that words convey meaning by just their sound alone. Deciding to use a word that sounds negative to everybody else…Which to me for coming from a marketing background and I've I've owned my own business I've worked in lots of…Retail oriented businesses So I've done a fair amount of marketing just like you have. We've got to consider the audience that we're speaking to. And the audience that we're speaking to. Is the 88% that recognizes that the difference between the two words. So what is what's your what's your thought I mean in the framework of putting it into marketing because it's great If we can sit in our own corner and talk about or how would we want but that doesn't do anything for. Improving the acceptance of people who think differently whether it's autistic or ADHD or,,, fill in any of the blank of any different way of thinking. if we can't get the general populace to accept. That. Ranges of thinking are normal…For me. In terms of the terminology. Neurodivergent versus. neurodistinct. Describing neurotypes that? have…Now I just got. I just got a third term which I really like but in terms of marketing and and all the rest of it, it's an interesting one because…what I'm thinking about is always how do we increase, community awareness and acceptance. And understanding of a certain concept. And for me to do that or term needs to be. User friendly enough. So that everybody can use it and understand it which is what you would call marketing. But it would also have to have…Enough of 'em…Kind of. Scientific or evidence-based sounding background is so that it sounds serious enough to take it seriously. And so what I'm trying to say is that there is a term that's in neurospicy, which I really like because that that to me really depicts. That…it's not to say that what we call neurotypical which is, the so-called normal way of thinking is either better or worse but that is. That kind of…Normal that, I don't know like. in Australia steak and three badge might be normal. But it's very different from a Curry or it's very different from certain foods that people also. love. It's just spicier. And so it's not to say that a Curry is better or worse than steak and three veg It just saying one of them is spicy and the other one is not that spicy. and so the point I'm trying to make is that…The reason why neurodivergent, to me doesn't closely align with being able to increase mental health literacy around it. Is because…it is so long. That, for starters, that it really decreases the readability. So when we think about the general population, The general population's reading ability worldwide is around grade five to six. So generally anything that's more than three to four syllables is going to be fairly problematic to read. If you then look at. a community's diversity in in terms of linguistic diversity. Immigration is so vast that every country or most countries would have such a large proportionate of. proportion of immigrants or language diversity that. Any foreign sounding language such as neurodivergent. That is as long as this, and it's very difficult to depict what it means because the divergent is not a common term that you would hear in every day. That's going to be fairly off putting and alienating for the majority of the population. And I think sometimes there's like neurodivergent. They can be such a double-edged sword because on one, on one hand, It's special in a way that makes it sound alienate. like divergent has that sc-fi alien. sounding element to that. And for some people that might be attractive because it's interesting it's futuristic and and that can be that can be very cool, but for most people it just basically sounds like a disease. So neurodivergent sounds like a neurological condition that you probably don't want to catch. and at the same time…The fact that it's quite jargon sounding itself. Can be really attractive for a lot of people who have been dismissed through live their lives. because a lot of, a lot of difficulties for example sensory sensitivities. that. The majority of people don't have. And is an actual day-to-day. difficulty for most neurodistinct people have resulted in us being continuously told why is it always you with a problem everybody's having a good time Why can't you have a good time Why are you overthinking things like what's your problem? It's usually. It's nearly like. It's not it's not a diagnostic criteria just to make that key clear, but if you've been told. You're too sensitive You're already thinking these, why can't you do this when everybody can do this? think about whether you're neurodistinct because these are generally the things that we have heard growing up A lot. And so for people who have been dismissed or their lives as in why are you creating the problem If there is none. Having something that is very serious sounding, like neurodivergent can be really really validating in saying how I told you that there was some. wrong and you didn't believe me. you sometimes talk about the example of Common cold. being called. I don't even know what it is but it's something acute respiratory whatever it is. and you wouldn't say that to your friend that I'm just at home having an acute respiratory whatever it is. because you would say oh I have a bit of a cold because that's everyday that that's normalizing that pretty okay Just things happening. At the same time, you would be more likely to call work and say oh I'm having. Acute respiratory whatever it is. because that's so serious sounding that it gives you that legitimacy of something is going on. And so…What I'm trying to say in here in many different ways is that. I think neurodivergent is. Is a very complicated term. that I don't think is a user-friendly term And neither is one that depicts, neurodiversity in a way that I would find it most inclusive for the most amount of people. Whereas neurodistinct is basically saying that there is a typical way of For example thinking feeling experiencing the world again typical is not to say that's good. Typical is saying that that is the most common. Plus minus 10%. So often when we when we consider, Different margins in a statistical way. that is. Plus minus 10%. within the average. And for me saying that somebody is neurodistinct means that they have distinct ways of functioning and operating…in In many domains. for example problem solving communication, attention and and so on. And so that to me makes it a very common sense Part of. We are different and some of us have strengths and challenges within the typical range. And some of us have strengths and challenges in more of a distinct way…Yeah I personally have no…issue If somebody wants to refer to themselves as being neurodivergent. just as if I have no issues if somebody gives me their pronouns whatever they are I'm. I'm happy to respect them. think everybody deserves the dignity of being referred to and addressed in the manner that they want to be referred to and addressed to. on the other hand, I have many of the same challenges you have with the neurodivergent I maybe even have some more. I have this concept I call it the emotional life of words. And an idea of the emotional life of words would be if I say the word beach, Most people when you say beach it's kind of happy They start beaming a little bit They're thinking of warm water nice blue water Palm trees white sand nice. Beach vacation maybe a pina colada in their hand or whatever their favorite is…But when we go and look up the definition of beach the definition of beach has nothing emotional attached to it It's it's pretty bland It's an interface of of water and land And. If that's about it…And in the emotional life of words. again it goes back to is that Kiki and Bouba kind of effective words do carry emotional life to them. And I think part of neurodivergent. It's a PhD level word. Yeah It's got too many syllables and it's too hard to spell and it's not self descriptive. And. What I've seen from doing work job counseling for a number of individuals that would be very very high. IQ level Asperger style…And. They have a tendency to use their PhD words on everybody. And I can understand why,, They being autistic myself I've gone through life being told why can't you be why can't you be why can't you So you finally accomplished something and you try to you're maybe overly proud of it. And you you overuse it. But what happens is…The people who are receiving that. PhD level words. First thing that goes through the mind is I'm feeling really stupid. because they can't decipher the words It's not making any sense yet. And of course nobody wants to feel stupid So the next thing they go to is. You're the jerk That's making me feel stupid. So if you want to be the jerk making fields of anybody, feel stupid then use a word that they can understand…So that's kind of my one of my hangups with it is. By using it it actually puts you in a…less favorable light. Then if you were to use a word that was more approachable by the person that didn't make them feel stupid…Then the other thing I've mentioned in of course you've just contrast it to be a basically neurotypical the. Quote norm. I think it goes back to marketing. And this dawned on me I was I was preparing for a presentation. And what this person. company wanted to presentation on was. Where neurodiversity fit into diversity…Which is very different than what's been going on in many of the presentations in the past which is oh what superpowers can you bring in by hiring these people in the company? I think this is a much better discussion of where does neurodiversity fit into diversity? It made me sit down and actually go look at the us national Institute of health. And look at the prevalence rate for. five most common. conditions that people would put into the neurodistinct category…And when I ended him up it come to 52% of the population. Now of course we know that there is overlap., Like yourself ADHD and autism together. But we also know that there's way more than five conditions that go into the list. So. even if we said they only balanced out and I think they more than balance out actually…That means more than the majority is not neurotypical. So what finally dawned on me is why were neurotypicals able to set the norms? And the answer is they're the most cohesive groups They marketed themselves better…Because they're so cohesive. So in other words everywhere you turn you get their version pushed at you because they are cohesive in…the overall But identical No I mean obviously they're not identical. But. Very much similarities in responding to the emotional cues in communication styles and…all of those kinds of things. And I think it's that cohesion that essentially without even realizing it they are really marketing their norm. To everybody. And because we're so…broken apart the the ADHDers don't work together with the with the autists which don't work together with the dyslexic which turns out don't work together with the. That. w we can't say that no norm is much wider because…we're being overpowered by 35 or 38% of the population because they actually are cohesive…I don't know how much of it is…Cohesiveness and and. what the percentages might be I think. One of the things that stand out to me is…How how life has changed. Since the industrial revolution. Because part of. What's happening is essentially…In the capitalist systems. In order to maximize profit. you need the cheapest production. and for that everything being uniform and mass-produced is, is pretty much a must. So that means that. To personalize something to allow people to have their own. Distinct desires qualities, to. To really shape. what suits them the most? That doesn't suit capitalism because you would have to then modify and personalize and provide options and provide multiple things, as opposed to just doing the one thing as as cheap as possible. And so I think what people often forget is that modern life actually doesn't suit anyone. It doesn't serve neurotypicals particularly well either. They just don't struggle as much with it then. then neurodistinct people and some of the reasons for that I think. is Just purely. Less sensitivities for instance with some of the increased noise and the increased changes in the environment. That. I think is often perhaps the, the straw that broke the camel's back. So I noticed that even though I have. Not just an auditory processing disorder but also misophonia which means that certain noises just really, send me into this fight or flight response But. When I'm in a forest. I don't have any problems with sounds because. It's it's a much slower much quieter. Environment. but as soon as I come back in the city, it's multilayered noises on top of each other. So again it's not to say that city living doesn't suit anyone It is to say that the stress of living in the city. it might be fairly minor for some people to the point where they even not notice it. But for others with sensitivities. Purely living in a city in a noisy environment can already push. The tolerance for other things lower. And so the reason why it's important to understand is because especially in the last decade or so since we moved into this only connected world where information is just absolutely inundating everything. People who have, some difficulties with executive functioning So that's generally the the brains project manager or planning organizing prioritizing and so on. If you imagine like hunter gatherer era. Your weekly to do list. It could've been. Killed the mammoth. With 10 other people, that's it. You've got That one thing on your to-do list now. If you look at the average person's to do list for a week, I have often, and this is not exaggeration about. 70 things on my to-do list. And it's not because I write everything down but once you have a child, Even just to remember what's pirate day When do we need to give the money for the teachers When do we need to book in for holiday care? now it's, whatever day. That can be like 10 a week That is an extra thing. and then on top of it comes the, which electricity provider do you choose and then all. the things that used to be. Unknown thing. Similarly when I want to catch up with friends, we need to organize and manage calendars. That used to be, partially a job of an executive assistant or secretary, but now it's it's something that we all have to do. And so I think these excessive demands that are essentially part of modern life. Making everybody's lives difficult. but I think neurodistinct people find it, a lot more taxing to cope with because our coping resources are often already eaten away by. Just generally trying to withstand, Processing the amount of information that comes across our way which we tend to feel and experience a lot more heightened. And I just want to say one more thing referring back to, the the diversity hunger games. I really want to emphasize that…There are people whose needs do require a lot more resources. And so I want to make it clear that I really want to honor that. But I want to honor that in a way that is something that happens because we want everyone to live their best lives. So I wish that the basis of providing for people's needs and wellbeing would be what makes you to be the best human being that you can be. Rather than how many points can you show from your suffering that legitimated X amount of dollars to be thrown your way…I agree with you the the industrial revolution think was a, a pivotal point And I look at it maybe a little differently. And that is we came up with the idea of interchangeable parts was a big piece of the industrial revolution but the other big piece that we don't talk about as much was interchangeable workers. And the whole concept that one worker is just as good as another worker just plug them in and they needed to be…interchangeable. And if we look at people who do perceive process think differently they are not necessarily interchangeable. And if you roll it back as you said before, industrial revolution. what would happen if you had a your your kid., thought acted whatever a certain way. Well you would find something for them to do because everything was done within the village or close by There was small amounts of trade. So there was a lot of variety of what the. Person could go into as a…profession to support themselves. now those we were under the industrial revolution suddenly we started moving things to specialization except for the workers and the parts those needed to be interchangeable on both sides. so we suddenly lost that ability to find the environment for, a career field. I guess I guess you'd say career field I don't think they thought of it as career fields back then but, you you lost that ability though to find that oh your child was very good at and outdoor kinds of things And wasn't a really a an in the house inside kind of. Person. So you sent them off to work with the local farmer, where they're out working outdoors and. And again as you say the whole just level of how many things in your task list. when there's very little communicate except for a when the people in the village get together. There's not a lot on the task list either. there wasn't interchanging all these pieces It was the. Blacksmith need things from one end to the other They, didn't have to worry about. 12 different, companies involved in the process of building the one item…So I I definitely would agree that industrial evolution was a turning point for humans in both good ways and in bad ways…Well, If if somebody was interested in getting a hold of you finding out some more and help them straighten their own company out and understand neurodiversity. what's the best way to reach you…LinkedIn LinkedIn will be the best. So how did they find you on LinkedIn? Dr Lutza Ireland Perfect. Perfect. Well I will actually go and get your LinkedIn URL and put it down into the show notes so that people can be even, real easy and they don't even have to be able to figure out how to spell doctor. Because we don't want to use PhD words on them…Well this has been wonderful I've so much enjoyed having the chat with you and and taking this time. And hopefully we can do this again sometime. Oh definitely Thank you so much for having me. you're more than welcome Thank you…