{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.52,"body":"You're not good enough. You're going to be found out. You don't really"},{"startTime":3.52,"endTime":7.22,"body":"belong there. If you're suffering with imposter syndrome, then"},{"startTime":7.279,"endTime":10.895,"body":"this is the episode for you. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life."},{"startTime":10.955,"endTime":11.455,"body":"Hello,"},{"startTime":26.824,"endTime":30.585,"body":"and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast, the show where we're all about"},{"startTime":30.585,"endTime":34.239,"body":"beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know"},{"startTime":34.239,"endTime":37.92,"body":"how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right"},{"startTime":37.92,"endTime":40.98,"body":"place. Do you ever feel as though eventually,"},{"startTime":41.519,"endTime":45.094,"body":"someone is going to find you out? That one day you'll get a tap on"},{"startTime":45.094,"endTime":48.614,"body":"the shoulder, and your boss will tell you that you don't really know what you're"},{"startTime":48.614,"endTime":52.454,"body":"doing. If these kinds of thoughts regularly cross your mind, then you may well be"},{"startTime":52.454,"endTime":55.96,"body":"experiencing imposter syndrome, and that's what we're going to be tackling this"},{"startTime":55.96,"endTime":59.32,"body":"week. Joining me today is Massimo Roselli, a"},{"startTime":59.32,"endTime":62.965,"body":"trauma-informed career coach who creates a safe and supportive"},{"startTime":62.965,"endTime":66.585,"body":"space for individuals to explore career goals and overcome"},{"startTime":66.645,"endTime":70.43,"body":"challenges. Massimo offers a tailored approach that honours the"},{"startTime":70.43,"endTime":74.049,"body":"needs of those who have experienced trauma. Massimo,"},{"startTime":74.11,"endTime":77.95,"body":"welcome to the podcast. Hi, Jeremy. Thank you for having me as your"},{"startTime":77.95,"endTime":81.775,"body":"guest. So, I know what a career coach is, but"},{"startTime":81.775,"endTime":85.235,"body":"what does it mean to be a trauma-informed career coach?"},{"startTime":85.99,"endTime":89.53,"body":"Sure. This is also one of the questions I offer."},{"startTime":90.39,"endTime":94.09,"body":"I will start by saying that trauma is"},{"startTime":94.395,"endTime":97.615,"body":"an internal experience. It's an internal response"},{"startTime":97.995,"endTime":101.515,"body":"that is deeply stored in your body. Therefore, your"},{"startTime":101.515,"endTime":104.75,"body":"conscious mind may not be aware of"},{"startTime":104.97,"endTime":108.73,"body":"how this response may affect the work you"},{"startTime":108.73,"endTime":112.35,"body":"do and the way you approach your work,"},{"startTime":112.485,"endTime":116.244,"body":"the way you approach your relationships at work, the way you see"},{"startTime":116.244,"endTime":119.865,"body":"yourself at work. So, being a"},{"startTime":120.24,"endTime":123.84,"body":"trauma-informed coach means I create a"},{"startTime":123.84,"endTime":127.62,"body":"confidential, safe, and free-of-judgment space"},{"startTime":128.044,"endTime":131.105,"body":"where my clients are more than welcome to"},{"startTime":132.205,"endTime":135.94,"body":"explore their emotions. They are also welcome"},{"startTime":135.94,"endTime":139.64,"body":"to process their emotions and discuss"},{"startTime":139.94,"endTime":143.32,"body":"anything that can help them develop better coping strategies"},{"startTime":143.78,"endTime":147.545,"body":"when it comes to anything that might be related to"},{"startTime":147.545,"endTime":151.385,"body":"their trauma experiences. Which means, as a"},{"startTime":151.385,"endTime":154.74,"body":"coach, I use different tools,"},{"startTime":154.88,"endTime":158.48,"body":"which take into consideration not only the mindset, but"},{"startTime":158.48,"endTime":162.135,"body":"also their body and their presence in order to"},{"startTime":162.355,"endTime":165.635,"body":"improve their work experience and ensure that,"},{"startTime":166.035,"endTime":169.51,"body":"whenever trauma shows up in the work they"},{"startTime":169.89,"endTime":173.51,"body":"do and also in the way they relate to people,"},{"startTime":173.57,"endTime":177.215,"body":"they become more conscious. Therefore, they create"},{"startTime":177.435,"endTime":180.895,"body":"more space for a better, more conscious choice"},{"startTime":181.355,"endTime":185.035,"body":"to connect with a more resourceful self in the work"},{"startTime":185.035,"endTime":188.46,"body":"they do. So, does this go"},{"startTime":188.46,"endTime":192.3,"body":"into the realm of therapy? I mean, my"},{"startTime":192.3,"endTime":195.455,"body":"fairly basic understanding has always been that"},{"startTime":195.775,"endTime":199.535,"body":"therapy is more about dealing with unresolved issues in the past,"},{"startTime":199.535,"endTime":202.975,"body":"whereas coaching is much more about the present and moving forward. So, I'm"},{"startTime":202.975,"endTime":206.4,"body":"curious to know whether there's any crossover there. It's a very good"},{"startTime":206.4,"endTime":209.62,"body":"question. And I would say that, generally speaking,"},{"startTime":210.24,"endTime":213.915,"body":"and particularly in this case, the line"},{"startTime":214.135,"endTime":217.355,"body":"between therapy and coaching is very fine."},{"startTime":217.495,"endTime":221.194,"body":"Therapy, as you have correctly said, is about helping"},{"startTime":221.334,"endTime":224.91,"body":"the client resolve past issues, whereas coaching"},{"startTime":224.91,"endTime":228.13,"body":"is all about the present and the future."},{"startTime":228.59,"endTime":232.334,"body":"As a trauma-informed coach, I've been trained to"},{"startTime":232.735,"endTime":236.355,"body":"help people understand how"},{"startTime":236.495,"endTime":240.18,"body":"their trauma might affect the way they"},{"startTime":240.32,"endTime":244.08,"body":"experience the work they do, and also the relationships they"},{"startTime":244.08,"endTime":247.76,"body":"have, but also how they see themselves at work and how"},{"startTime":247.76,"endTime":251.38,"body":"trauma might show up in the here and now, in"},{"startTime":251.38,"endTime":255.075,"body":"the present moment. Because once the client has that"},{"startTime":255.075,"endTime":258.47,"body":"level of awareness, then we can both"},{"startTime":258.769,"endTime":261.75,"body":"create some space for them to develop"},{"startTime":262.29,"endTime":266.07,"body":"better strategies in the present, in the here and now,"},{"startTime":266.625,"endTime":270.005,"body":"to build a better future for them, so that"},{"startTime":270.305,"endTime":273.72,"body":"they don't get re-traumatised. So,"},{"startTime":273.72,"endTime":277.56,"body":"coaching still remains a tool to help them in the here"},{"startTime":277.56,"endTime":281.16,"body":"and now, but with a different level of awareness when it"},{"startTime":281.16,"endTime":284.845,"body":"comes to the traumatic experience they are still"},{"startTime":284.845,"endTime":288.465,"body":"healing. And when it comes to imposter syndrome,"},{"startTime":288.845,"endTime":292.44,"body":"how can trauma affect whether or not"},{"startTime":292.44,"endTime":296.12,"body":"that presents itself? This is one of the reasons why"},{"startTime":296.12,"endTime":299.56,"body":"many people, unfortunately, believe that"},{"startTime":299.56,"endTime":303.345,"body":"imposter syndrome is not curable. Because"},{"startTime":303.885,"endTime":307.645,"body":"there is not a deep understanding of the"},{"startTime":307.645,"endTime":311.39,"body":"link that very often you have between imposter"},{"startTime":311.53,"endTime":315.23,"body":"syndrome and trauma. Imposter syndrome is a visceral thing,"},{"startTime":315.45,"endTime":318.895,"body":"and it's stored in the body, and it may"},{"startTime":318.895,"endTime":322.735,"body":"also be triggered by a traumatic experience. There"},{"startTime":322.735,"endTime":326.495,"body":"is also evidence, and this is something that is based on"},{"startTime":326.495,"endTime":329.94,"body":"the latest research, showing that imposter"},{"startTime":330.08,"endTime":333.84,"body":"syndrome's repeated fears can"},{"startTime":334.24,"endTime":337.625,"body":"lead to what is known as complex PTSD,"},{"startTime":338.965,"endTime":342.425,"body":"with PTSD like flashbacks,"},{"startTime":343.125,"endTime":346.51,"body":"leading to severe health issues, including anxiety,"},{"startTime":347.13,"endTime":350.51,"body":"clinical depression, and even burnout. So,"},{"startTime":350.81,"endTime":354.075,"body":"if we don't understand the link between"},{"startTime":354.215,"endTime":358.055,"body":"trauma being an inner response stored in the body,"},{"startTime":358.055,"endTime":361.32,"body":"and imposter syndrome also being an internal"},{"startTime":361.46,"endTime":365.139,"body":"subconscious response stored in the body, it can be very"},{"startTime":365.139,"endTime":368.52,"body":"difficult to eradicate imposter syndrome."},{"startTime":369.085,"endTime":372.765,"body":"Well, that's fascinating. I've never heard it in"},{"startTime":372.765,"endTime":376.465,"body":"those terms before. I think we'd better get a few definitions"},{"startTime":376.845,"endTime":380.54,"body":"out of the way. People will have heard of imposter syndrome, I know"},{"startTime":380.54,"endTime":384.22,"body":"I've also heard it called the imposter phenomenon. Some people might"},{"startTime":384.22,"endTime":387.775,"body":"think that it's about just not"},{"startTime":387.775,"endTime":391.215,"body":"being very self-confident. So, how would you"},{"startTime":391.215,"endTime":394.975,"body":"define imposter syndrome in fairly simple terms,"},{"startTime":394.975,"endTime":398.8,"body":"as though you were explaining it to an eight-year-old? Great question, which is also"},{"startTime":398.8,"endTime":402.56,"body":"why it's important to cut off the noise out there, especially"},{"startTime":402.56,"endTime":406.295,"body":"on the socials, including LinkedIn. Let me tell you, first"},{"startTime":406.295,"endTime":409.915,"body":"of all, what the official definition is. The"},{"startTime":410.295,"endTime":413.915,"body":"accurate original name is actually imposter phenomenon."},{"startTime":413.975,"endTime":417.4,"body":"And the term imposter phenomenon was coined"},{"startTime":417.4,"endTime":421.16,"body":"by two American psychologists, Doctor Pauline Clance and Suzanne"},{"startTime":421.48,"endTime":425.245,"body":"Imes, back in the seventies. They wrote the"},{"startTime":425.245,"endTime":428.705,"body":"first study about the imposter phenomenon after conducting psychotherapy"},{"startTime":428.765,"endTime":432.59,"body":"with over 150 highly successful women."},{"startTime":432.59,"endTime":436.27,"body":"This is why even today, we may tend to think"},{"startTime":436.27,"endTime":440.05,"body":"that this phenomenon affects women rather than men, thus"},{"startTime":440.215,"endTime":443.735,"body":"reinforcing the stereotype. Doctor Pauline Clance described"},{"startTime":443.735,"endTime":447.495,"body":"the imposter phenomenon as an internal experience of"},{"startTime":447.495,"endTime":451.07,"body":"phoniness that those who feel like a fraud"},{"startTime":451.07,"endTime":454.59,"body":"and worthless have, in spite of"},{"startTime":454.59,"endTime":457.89,"body":"academic or professional accomplishment. According"},{"startTime":458.435,"endTime":462.035,"body":"to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it's the feeling"},{"startTime":462.035,"endTime":465.715,"body":"that our achievements are not real or that we don't"},{"startTime":465.715,"endTime":469.22,"body":"deserve praise or success. I really like"},{"startTime":469.92,"endTime":473.3,"body":"the definition that Clare Josa, the UK's"},{"startTime":473.52,"endTime":477.035,"body":"leading authority in the context of imposter syndrome, has"},{"startTime":477.035,"endTime":480.414,"body":"about imposter syndrome. And I guess this is something that"},{"startTime":480.555,"endTime":484.074,"body":"really helped me also, individually speaking, understand what"},{"startTime":484.074,"endTime":487.9,"body":"imposter syndrome is. It's the gap between"},{"startTime":488.36,"endTime":491.74,"body":"how you see yourself as being today"},{"startTime":492.28,"endTime":495.695,"body":"and who you think you need to be to create"},{"startTime":495.835,"endTime":499.455,"body":"or achieve a goal despite all evidence"},{"startTime":499.595,"endTime":503.43,"body":"that you're more than capable. So, this is one of those"},{"startTime":503.43,"endTime":506.41,"body":"definitions I really like, because I think it simplifies"},{"startTime":506.95,"endTime":510.794,"body":"different kinds of definitions and interpretations we've had about"},{"startTime":510.794,"endTime":514.154,"body":"imposter syndrome, but also, it helps you"},{"startTime":514.154,"endTime":517.595,"body":"understand why it's much more"},{"startTime":517.595,"endTime":521.23,"body":"popular these days as a syndrome. And we can talk about"},{"startTime":521.23,"endTime":524.75,"body":"it if you wish. So, this"},{"startTime":524.75,"endTime":528.37,"body":"gap you talk about between how we perceive"},{"startTime":528.714,"endTime":532.074,"body":"ourselves and how we perceive what we need to"},{"startTime":532.074,"endTime":534.894,"body":"be, where's the difference between"},{"startTime":536.07,"endTime":539.85,"body":"that being an aspiration and that being something"},{"startTime":540.47,"endTime":543.91,"body":"negative? So, you know, let's say that, I don't know, I want to be the"},{"startTime":543.91,"endTime":547.445,"body":"next Elon Musk. There's probably quite a lot I would need to"},{"startTime":547.445,"endTime":550.585,"body":"do in order to get there, but I can"},{"startTime":551.125,"endTime":554.55,"body":"use that as a sort of motivation or as an"},{"startTime":554.55,"endTime":558.07,"body":"aspirational tool. Okay, so here I am now, if I want to"},{"startTime":558.07,"endTime":561.67,"body":"emulate Elon Musk, what are the things that I would need to do? Because I"},{"startTime":561.67,"endTime":565.085,"body":"know I'm not there yet. So, yeah, what's the difference"},{"startTime":565.085,"endTime":568.705,"body":"between that motivating thing and"},{"startTime":569.165,"endTime":572.51,"body":"imposter syndrome? So, the motivating thing"},{"startTime":572.73,"endTime":576.33,"body":"is very clear, and it depends on"},{"startTime":576.73,"endTime":580.475,"body":"whether you're struggling with imposter syndrome or you're not"},{"startTime":580.475,"endTime":584.095,"body":"struggling with imposter syndrome. It can be a positive motivating"},{"startTime":584.315,"endTime":587.135,"body":"factor if we come from a place of abundance."},{"startTime":588.43,"endTime":591.65,"body":"What I mean is, if we are motivated"},{"startTime":592.43,"endTime":595.73,"body":"by our highest values, if we are motivated"},{"startTime":596.145,"endTime":599.125,"body":"by positive outcomes, if we are motivated"},{"startTime":599.585,"endTime":602.805,"body":"by what is important for us to achieve,"},{"startTime":603.67,"endTime":607.19,"body":"then we are not struggling with imposter syndrome. Whenever we struggle with"},{"startTime":607.19,"endTime":610.49,"body":"imposter syndrome, we are not really talking about"},{"startTime":610.955,"endTime":614.735,"body":"a positive aspiration. What we are talking about"},{"startTime":614.955,"endTime":618.315,"body":"is fear. We are coming from a place of fear."},{"startTime":618.315,"endTime":621.86,"body":"Therefore, the gap between how we"},{"startTime":621.86,"endTime":624.92,"body":"see ourselves as currently being and"},{"startTime":625.54,"endTime":629.214,"body":"how we see ourselves in terms of what we need to"},{"startTime":629.214,"endTime":632.995,"body":"become to create or achieve a goal is filled"},{"startTime":633.375,"endTime":636.8,"body":"with survival coping mechanisms to"},{"startTime":636.8,"endTime":640.4,"body":"reduce that fear. So, we do our best to reduce that"},{"startTime":640.4,"endTime":643.7,"body":"fear. This is why it can become"},{"startTime":643.76,"endTime":647.515,"body":"quite overwhelming to the point that,"},{"startTime":647.575,"endTime":651.175,"body":"if left unchecked, it can lead to severe health"},{"startTime":651.175,"endTime":654.875,"body":"issues. So, you mentioned the coping mechanisms."},{"startTime":655.74,"endTime":659.579,"body":"How might imposter syndrome present itself? There's"},{"startTime":659.579,"endTime":663.26,"body":"plenty of research showing that whenever we struggle with"},{"startTime":663.26,"endTime":666.985,"body":"imposter syndrome, we often talk about the"},{"startTime":666.985,"endTime":669.805,"body":"four P's. And the four P's are Perfectionism,"},{"startTime":671.065,"endTime":674.7,"body":"Procrastination, Project paralysis, and"},{"startTime":674.7,"endTime":678.54,"body":"People pleasing. And these are all survival"},{"startTime":678.54,"endTime":682.165,"body":"coping mechanisms. These are all survival strategies that"},{"startTime":682.165,"endTime":686.005,"body":"we have subconsciously learned to adapt"},{"startTime":686.005,"endTime":689.765,"body":"to challenges. So, going back to Clare Josa's"},{"startTime":690.27,"endTime":693.87,"body":"definition of being in a gap, whenever we use,"},{"startTime":693.87,"endTime":697.49,"body":"subconsciously speaking, these coping mechanisms, we"},{"startTime":697.79,"endTime":701.495,"body":"do our best to reduce that gap. The problem is,"},{"startTime":701.495,"endTime":705.035,"body":"whenever there's a new opportunity to"},{"startTime":705.575,"endTime":708.75,"body":"deal with, whenever there's a promotion, whenever"},{"startTime":709.29,"endTime":712.99,"body":"we are faced with a new challenge, whenever we want to stretch"},{"startTime":713.13,"endTime":716.805,"body":"our comfort zone, if we struggle with imposter syndrome, that"},{"startTime":716.865,"endTime":720.565,"body":"gap becomes bigger and bigger. Therefore, those coping mechanisms in"},{"startTime":720.704,"endTime":724.05,"body":"the long term do not work and can"},{"startTime":724.05,"endTime":727.27,"body":"have a detrimental impact"},{"startTime":727.57,"endTime":731.385,"body":"on your overall well-being. And I think I've heard of, is"},{"startTime":731.385,"endTime":735.144,"body":"it the five types of imposter syndrome? I might have got the number wrong."},{"startTime":735.144,"endTime":738.77,"body":"You mentioned four different things there. So, yeah, the different"},{"startTime":738.93,"endTime":742.37,"body":"types of imposter, can you talk a bit to that? Yes."},{"startTime":742.37,"endTime":746.055,"body":"So, there are some common causes when it comes"},{"startTime":746.135,"endTime":748.955,"body":"to imposter syndrome. And one of those common causes"},{"startTime":749.495,"endTime":752.875,"body":"is related to certain personality"},{"startTime":753.73,"endTime":757.33,"body":"traits. And there is some research showing that there are"},{"startTime":757.33,"endTime":760.69,"body":"certain personality traits or personality types in the context of"},{"startTime":760.69,"endTime":764.185,"body":"imposter syndrome, including the Perfectionist, the Soloist,"},{"startTime":764.645,"endTime":768.485,"body":"the Superman or Superwoman, the Genius. So, these"},{"startTime":768.485,"endTime":772.265,"body":"are some examples of personality types or traits"},{"startTime":772.94,"endTime":776.32,"body":"that might, let's say, be fertile"},{"startTime":776.54,"endTime":779.9,"body":"territory to imposter syndrome and how"},{"startTime":779.9,"endTime":783.385,"body":"imposter syndrome may come out, especially in certain"},{"startTime":783.385,"endTime":787.145,"body":"contexts. Can you just run us through some of the"},{"startTime":787.145,"endTime":790.12,"body":"traits that come out with those particular types, some of the traits or some of"},{"startTime":790.121,"endTime":790.839,"body":"the thought processes? Sure. So,"},{"startTime":793.779,"endTime":797.505,"body":"one of the most common personality types in"},{"startTime":797.505,"endTime":801.045,"body":"the context of imposter syndrome is being a perfectionist. And"},{"startTime":802.385,"endTime":806.065,"body":"perfectionism is a protective trauma response."},{"startTime":806.065,"endTime":809.57,"body":"It's a survival response. It's a survival coping"},{"startTime":809.57,"endTime":813.41,"body":"mechanism. So, whenever you deal with"},{"startTime":813.41,"endTime":817.024,"body":"perfectionism, you raise high standards"},{"startTime":817.024,"endTime":820.644,"body":"that are really impossible to achieve. Therefore, procrastination"},{"startTime":820.785,"endTime":824.545,"body":"means overpreparation. And the reason why"},{"startTime":824.545,"endTime":828.34,"body":"you tend to overwork is because you want"},{"startTime":828.34,"endTime":832.02,"body":"to prove to others that you're worthy."},{"startTime":832.02,"endTime":835.56,"body":"And so, there's a lot of thinking in"},{"startTime":836.334,"endTime":839.694,"body":"the background, and this is not just something that happens"},{"startTime":839.694,"endTime":843.055,"body":"when you might deal with perfectionism,"},{"startTime":843.055,"endTime":846.56,"body":"but definitely, when you deal with perfectionism, the"},{"startTime":848.3,"endTime":851.519,"body":"internal dialogue is very strong and"},{"startTime":852.265,"endTime":855.725,"body":"is very negative. So, this is definitely an example of"},{"startTime":855.785,"endTime":858.845,"body":"how imposter syndrome may show up, particularly"},{"startTime":859.36,"endTime":863.2,"body":"when you deal with perfectionism. And then, I'm conscious I"},{"startTime":863.2,"endTime":866.72,"body":"also mentioned other personality types or traits,"},{"startTime":866.72,"endTime":870.005,"body":"including the Superman or Superwoman. Basically,"},{"startTime":870.305,"endTime":873.825,"body":"you subconsciously convince yourself"},{"startTime":873.825,"endTime":877.56,"body":"that you can do everything on your"},{"startTime":877.56,"endTime":880.76,"body":"own, and that you are great, and that you don't need any"},{"startTime":880.76,"endTime":884.575,"body":"support, you don't need to ask for help. Therefore,"},{"startTime":884.955,"endTime":888.394,"body":"whenever you deal with a challenge that might"},{"startTime":888.394,"endTime":892.23,"body":"be uncomfortable or that might stretch your comfort zone,"},{"startTime":892.23,"endTime":894.73,"body":"you might just give up. And"},{"startTime":895.35,"endTime":899.029,"body":"that's also another reason why you might"},{"startTime":899.029,"endTime":901.945,"body":"end up having negative, unsupportive, unhelpful"},{"startTime":902.405,"endTime":906.025,"body":"thoughts that will amplify imposter"},{"startTime":906.965,"endTime":909.765,"body":"syndrome-driven self-talk."},{"startTime":910.87,"endTime":914.49,"body":"Okay. So, a feeling not necessarily that you"},{"startTime":914.63,"endTime":918.17,"body":"can do it all by yourself, but that somehow you should"},{"startTime":918.305,"endTime":922.065,"body":"do it all by yourself, and that it's improper somehow"},{"startTime":922.065,"endTime":925.825,"body":"to ask people for help. That's another sort of"},{"startTime":925.825,"endTime":929.629,"body":"aspect of this Superman or Superwoman personality traits."},{"startTime":929.769,"endTime":933.449,"body":"We could simplify it by saying that. Yes. And it's not just something"},{"startTime":933.449,"endTime":937.185,"body":"that would be related to being a Superman or"},{"startTime":937.185,"endTime":941.025,"body":"Superwoman, but because it's something that you could also"},{"startTime":941.025,"endTime":944.485,"body":"have in relation to other personality types or traits."},{"startTime":944.92,"endTime":948.519,"body":"Whenever I work with clients who struggle with imposter"},{"startTime":948.519,"endTime":952.334,"body":"syndrome, I very rarely touch on"},{"startTime":952.654,"endTime":956.334,"body":"the personality type or trait. It can be one of the"},{"startTime":956.334,"endTime":960.06,"body":"common causes of imposter syndrome. But for me"},{"startTime":960.06,"endTime":963.76,"body":"and for the client, it's more important to understand"},{"startTime":964.54,"endTime":968.32,"body":"what strategies, from a survival point of view,"},{"startTime":968.485,"endTime":972.105,"body":"they are adopting in the here and now, in the present, to"},{"startTime":972.245,"endTime":975.305,"body":"reduce the stress levels, to reduce the anxiety levels,"},{"startTime":975.765,"endTime":979.46,"body":"and what we can do together to ensure that"},{"startTime":979.46,"endTime":983.14,"body":"they come from a different place that is not a place of fear,"},{"startTime":983.14,"endTime":986.66,"body":"so that they can deal more effectively with imposter syndrome."},{"startTime":986.66,"endTime":990.405,"body":"And if they're prepared to do the"},{"startTime":990.705,"endTime":994.065,"body":"deep work, they can even eradicate imposter syndrome."},{"startTime":994.065,"endTime":997.55,"body":"What are some of the, if you like,"},{"startTime":997.55,"endTime":1001.149,"body":"overlooked symptoms of imposter syndrome"},{"startTime":1001.149,"endTime":1004.764,"body":"that people might not come across or might"},{"startTime":1004.764,"endTime":1008.464,"body":"not have thought about? So, if left unchecked,"},{"startTime":1008.524,"endTime":1012.225,"body":"imposter syndrome can lead to a"},{"startTime":1012.53,"endTime":1015.83,"body":"wide range of health issues. Hence, the"},{"startTime":1016.85,"endTime":1020.39,"body":"term syndrome. And those health issues may"},{"startTime":1020.425,"endTime":1023.725,"body":"include clinical depression, anxiety, addictions,"},{"startTime":1024.505,"endTime":1028.345,"body":"and even burnout. There's plenty of research"},{"startTime":1028.345,"endTime":1032.08,"body":"showing that imposter syndrome and burnout are"},{"startTime":1032.22,"endTime":1035.52,"body":"strictly linked. So, these are just some examples of"},{"startTime":1035.74,"endTime":1039.555,"body":"issues on an individual level. But also, think"},{"startTime":1039.555,"endTime":1042.915,"body":"about the organisation. And that's also why"},{"startTime":1042.915,"endTime":1046.49,"body":"there is so much noise these days about imposter syndrome."},{"startTime":1046.49,"endTime":1050.27,"body":"Because very often we may tend to focus on what"},{"startTime":1050.81,"endTime":1054.355,"body":"might be the cost for the"},{"startTime":1054.415,"endTime":1057.795,"body":"individual when they struggle with imposter syndrome, without"},{"startTime":1058.335,"endTime":1062.0,"body":"also considering what might be the cost"},{"startTime":1062.0,"endTime":1065.84,"body":"for the organisation when employees are struggling"},{"startTime":1065.84,"endTime":1069.485,"body":"with imposter syndrome. And those costs can be"},{"startTime":1069.485,"endTime":1072.785,"body":"highly related to lack of innovation, lack"},{"startTime":1073.885,"endTime":1077.62,"body":"of growth. Think about teams who"},{"startTime":1078.0,"endTime":1081.62,"body":"might become risk-averse because of imposter"},{"startTime":1081.679,"endTime":1085.245,"body":"syndrome. Think about teams who might not"},{"startTime":1085.705,"endTime":1089.465,"body":"feel safe enough sharing their great"},{"startTime":1089.465,"endTime":1093.159,"body":"ideas because of imposter syndrome, or because"},{"startTime":1093.539,"endTime":1097.08,"body":"their manager has turned into a micromanaging"},{"startTime":1097.539,"endTime":1100.925,"body":"perfectionist. There are many reasons why imposter"},{"startTime":1100.925,"endTime":1103.985,"body":"syndrome can be quite detrimental"},{"startTime":1104.445,"endTime":1108.08,"body":"to your overall well-being, and also to"},{"startTime":1108.08,"endTime":1111.54,"body":"productivity when it comes to organisations,"},{"startTime":1111.84,"endTime":1115.615,"body":"generally speaking. And so, presumably, the benefits of dealing"},{"startTime":1115.615,"endTime":1119.055,"body":"with imposter syndrome are largely the"},{"startTime":1119.055,"endTime":1122.895,"body":"converse of what you've described. So, it's avoiding these health"},{"startTime":1122.895,"endTime":1126.21,"body":"outcomes and increasing productivity"},{"startTime":1126.509,"endTime":1129.57,"body":"and teamwork and so on in the workspace and that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1130.19,"endTime":1134.025,"body":"That's correct. That's correct. It's a combination of individual"},{"startTime":1135.605,"endTime":1139.37,"body":"and team efforts and factors within"},{"startTime":1139.37,"endTime":1142.99,"body":"the organisation. And I'm conscious I briefly"},{"startTime":1143.049,"endTime":1146.585,"body":"mentioned burnout. And if you think about burnout"},{"startTime":1146.745,"endTime":1150.125,"body":"and the link between imposter syndrome and burnout,"},{"startTime":1150.745,"endTime":1153.965,"body":"there are three main pillars. One is"},{"startTime":1154.184,"endTime":1158.009,"body":"culture. So, think about the organisation's culture,"},{"startTime":1158.009,"endTime":1161.45,"body":"but also the national culture, and there are also many other"},{"startTime":1161.45,"endTime":1165.105,"body":"examples of culture. Think about the environment, so that's the"},{"startTime":1165.105,"endTime":1168.705,"body":"other pillar. So, by environment, I mean the people we are"},{"startTime":1168.705,"endTime":1172.465,"body":"surrounded by at work, the location, the space"},{"startTime":1172.465,"endTime":1175.83,"body":"where we work. And the other pillar is"},{"startTime":1176.45,"endTime":1180.289,"body":"habits. And that's where we have control. Because once"},{"startTime":1180.289,"endTime":1184.105,"body":"we do the work we need to do to change our habits,"},{"startTime":1184.165,"endTime":1188.005,"body":"that's when, by changing our habits, we can influence the"},{"startTime":1188.005,"endTime":1191.67,"body":"external world. So, this is something that I also"},{"startTime":1192.21,"endTime":1195.67,"body":"very often want people I work with"},{"startTime":1195.97,"endTime":1199.755,"body":"to know, because imposter syndrome is"},{"startTime":1199.755,"endTime":1203.434,"body":"always context-dependent, and it"},{"startTime":1203.434,"endTime":1206.98,"body":"may come out also as a result of toxic"},{"startTime":1206.98,"endTime":1210.279,"body":"culture within an organisation. And things like"},{"startTime":1210.419,"endTime":1214.26,"body":"culture and environment, you might be able"},{"startTime":1214.26,"endTime":1217.995,"body":"to influence those to a point, but you"},{"startTime":1217.995,"endTime":1221.775,"body":"might not be able to, and so the only thing you can"},{"startTime":1221.995,"endTime":1225.409,"body":"possibly do about that is move to a different"},{"startTime":1225.409,"endTime":1229.09,"body":"organisation with a better cultural and environmental fit. But the"},{"startTime":1229.09,"endTime":1232.585,"body":"habit side of things, that's something which pretty much any"},{"startTime":1232.585,"endTime":1235.965,"body":"individual can do in any situation,"},{"startTime":1236.184,"endTime":1239.865,"body":"any organisation. Absolutely. You have control over"},{"startTime":1239.865,"endTime":1243.55,"body":"your habits. And you also raised a very important point,"},{"startTime":1243.55,"endTime":1247.25,"body":"which reminds me of one of my latest coaching"},{"startTime":1247.31,"endTime":1251.045,"body":"conversations with a client, where we have identified,"},{"startTime":1251.745,"endTime":1255.585,"body":"on one hand, they struggled with imposter syndrome, and on"},{"startTime":1255.585,"endTime":1258.559,"body":"the other hand, of values misalignment with"},{"startTime":1259.42,"endTime":1262.94,"body":"the company. Therefore, as you said, if you"},{"startTime":1262.94,"endTime":1266.16,"body":"realise you have this conflict, then"},{"startTime":1267.125,"endTime":1270.665,"body":"one of the questions could be what may need to happen for you to"},{"startTime":1271.125,"endTime":1274.805,"body":"be able to find a space"},{"startTime":1274.805,"endTime":1278.51,"body":"where you can grow and thrive, where you can be the best"},{"startTime":1278.51,"endTime":1282.27,"body":"version of yourself. Because maybe, just maybe, one of"},{"startTime":1282.27,"endTime":1286.035,"body":"the reasons why you're struggling with imposter syndrome is because you're not"},{"startTime":1286.035,"endTime":1289.655,"body":"in the right place, in a place that can"},{"startTime":1290.115,"endTime":1293.72,"body":"help you grow and thrive. You mentioned"},{"startTime":1293.72,"endTime":1297.419,"body":"earlier the idea that you could eradicate"},{"startTime":1297.559,"endTime":1301.32,"body":"imposter syndrome. Before we get on to how you"},{"startTime":1301.32,"endTime":1304.855,"body":"might do that, is this something that you can cure"},{"startTime":1305.315,"endTime":1309.075,"body":"and then that's it, and you never have to worry about it again? Or is"},{"startTime":1309.075,"endTime":1312.63,"body":"this a constant practice, a constant work"},{"startTime":1312.69,"endTime":1316.45,"body":"to keep it tamped down"},{"startTime":1316.45,"endTime":1320.23,"body":"as much as possible? You can eradicate it. I"},{"startTime":1320.515,"endTime":1324.035,"body":"wouldn't use the word cure because that might"},{"startTime":1324.035,"endTime":1327.875,"body":"also reinforce potentially the myth that imposter"},{"startTime":1327.875,"endTime":1331.679,"body":"syndrome is not curable. You could,"},{"startTime":1331.679,"endTime":1335.44,"body":"and you can eradicate it, if you are"},{"startTime":1335.44,"endTime":1339.115,"body":"prepared to do a certain type of work. I guess it's"},{"startTime":1339.115,"endTime":1342.575,"body":"worth mentioning that imposter syndrome, although"},{"startTime":1342.635,"endTime":1346.45,"body":"we know why it's known as syndrome, it's"},{"startTime":1346.69,"endTime":1350.389,"body":"not recognised as a clinical condition. It's"},{"startTime":1350.45,"endTime":1353.99,"body":"not recognised as a clinical condition by"},{"startTime":1354.365,"endTime":1357.885,"body":"the British Psychology Society. But as we said earlier, it"},{"startTime":1357.885,"endTime":1361.725,"body":"feels real. It's a visceral thing stored in your body,"},{"startTime":1361.725,"endTime":1365.03,"body":"and it can be detrimental to your overall"},{"startTime":1365.03,"endTime":1368.65,"body":"well-being if left unchecked. You can"},{"startTime":1369.19,"endTime":1372.755,"body":"eradicate it with constant practice and"},{"startTime":1372.815,"endTime":1376.115,"body":"repetition. So, you've mentioned"},{"startTime":1376.575,"endTime":1379.935,"body":"doing some work. Where do you start? What's the first thing to"},{"startTime":1379.935,"endTime":1383.25,"body":"do? One of the reasons why imposter syndrome"},{"startTime":1383.55,"endTime":1387.01,"body":"seems to be such a great challenge, almost"},{"startTime":1387.95,"endTime":1391.685,"body":"incurable, to use your words, is because there"},{"startTime":1391.685,"endTime":1395.525,"body":"is this tendency to think about imposter syndrome as one"},{"startTime":1395.525,"endTime":1399.33,"body":"of those challenges that we can effectively deal"},{"startTime":1399.33,"endTime":1403.01,"body":"with just by using our mindset. Mindset is"},{"startTime":1403.01,"endTime":1406.69,"body":"brilliant. Mindset in the context of imposter syndrome can be"},{"startTime":1406.69,"endTime":1409.684,"body":"really helpful. And even when"},{"startTime":1410.625,"endTime":1414.325,"body":"I think about my own coaching conversations with clients,"},{"startTime":1415.279,"endTime":1418.659,"body":"I tend to use a wide range of mindset"},{"startTime":1419.039,"endTime":1422.559,"body":"techniques to help them develop better coping"},{"startTime":1422.559,"endTime":1426.215,"body":"strategies. And if you're prepared to do the deep"},{"startTime":1426.215,"endTime":1429.575,"body":"work, because that's really what can help you eradicate imposter"},{"startTime":1429.575,"endTime":1433.2,"body":"syndrome, you also need to incorporate into"},{"startTime":1433.2,"endTime":1437.04,"body":"your toolkit, into your practice, body-based"},{"startTime":1437.04,"endTime":1440.64,"body":"work. Because imposter syndrome is a"},{"startTime":1440.64,"endTime":1443.975,"body":"subconscious fear-based response, processed by"},{"startTime":1444.355,"endTime":1447.795,"body":"the primal part of your brain that wants to keep you"},{"startTime":1447.795,"endTime":1451.51,"body":"safe. And all of this happens under your"},{"startTime":1451.51,"endTime":1454.97,"body":"level of awareness before your mindset"},{"startTime":1455.029,"endTime":1457.35,"body":"gets involved. So, if we"},{"startTime":1457.35,"endTime":1460.925,"body":"just want to deal with imposter"},{"startTime":1460.985,"endTime":1464.585,"body":"syndrome just by using cognitive tools, it will"},{"startTime":1464.585,"endTime":1467.565,"body":"work temporarily because we are not addressing"},{"startTime":1468.42,"endTime":1472.18,"body":"the fear-based response which has been stored in"},{"startTime":1472.18,"endTime":1475.78,"body":"the body. Okay. So, if I've understood what you"},{"startTime":1475.78,"endTime":1479.395,"body":"said, it's not enough just to use"},{"startTime":1479.395,"endTime":1482.695,"body":"a mindset tool, and we can come on in a sec to talk about"},{"startTime":1482.835,"endTime":1485.89,"body":"what that might be. There's also"},{"startTime":1486.59,"endTime":1490.19,"body":"dealing with how it shows up within the"},{"startTime":1490.19,"endTime":1493.49,"body":"body. And so, there are tools there which"},{"startTime":1494.275,"endTime":1497.875,"body":"deal with physical responses, not just"},{"startTime":1497.875,"endTime":1501.235,"body":"mental responses. Is that right? That's correct. Imposter"},{"startTime":1501.235,"endTime":1504.73,"body":"syndrome is a fear-based response. So, whenever"},{"startTime":1505.11,"endTime":1508.57,"body":"I struggle with imposter syndrome, I"},{"startTime":1508.87,"endTime":1512.65,"body":"tend to think thoughts that come from a place of fear."},{"startTime":1513.035,"endTime":1516.875,"body":"And those thoughts which are fear-based, those stories that I tell myself that I'm"},{"startTime":1516.875,"endTime":1520.415,"body":"not good enough, or that I'm not as intelligent or"},{"startTime":1520.715,"endTime":1524.559,"body":"talented as other people think I am, or"},{"startTime":1524.559,"endTime":1528.24,"body":"I am not as creative or talented as other"},{"startTime":1528.24,"endTime":1531.955,"body":"people in my field, and there are many other stories"},{"startTime":1531.955,"endTime":1535.335,"body":"I can tell myself, particularly on a subconscious level,"},{"startTime":1535.475,"endTime":1538.83,"body":"all of that leads the body to"},{"startTime":1538.83,"endTime":1542.19,"body":"get flooded with the so-called stress"},{"startTime":1542.19,"endTime":1545.33,"body":"hormones, adrenaline and cortisol. And"},{"startTime":1545.955,"endTime":1549.575,"body":"whenever my body gets flooded with stress"},{"startTime":1549.794,"endTime":1553.235,"body":"hormones, adrenaline and cortisol, that in itself"},{"startTime":1553.235,"endTime":1556.78,"body":"will trigger a chain of unsupportive thoughts,"},{"startTime":1557.0,"endTime":1559.74,"body":"which will trigger certain emotions,"},{"startTime":1560.36,"endTime":1563.965,"body":"which will feed those unsupportive thoughts."},{"startTime":1564.105,"endTime":1567.245,"body":"And all of that will basically trigger"},{"startTime":1567.705,"endTime":1571.46,"body":"the fight, flight, freeze, or fall response"},{"startTime":1571.46,"endTime":1575.22,"body":"of the body's nervous system. Every time we think"},{"startTime":1575.22,"endTime":1578.205,"body":"unsupportive thoughts, every time we think imposter"},{"startTime":1578.205,"endTime":1581.965,"body":"syndrome-driven thoughts, we are building new"},{"startTime":1581.965,"endTime":1585.679,"body":"neural pathways in the brain. All of that changes"},{"startTime":1585.679,"endTime":1589.36,"body":"the neurology. Therefore, we will have"},{"startTime":1589.36,"endTime":1593.195,"body":"an autopilot response for a particular trigger."},{"startTime":1593.255,"endTime":1596.934,"body":"So, the body gets addicted to those stress"},{"startTime":1596.934,"endTime":1600.62,"body":"hormones as a result of those stories, of those beliefs that"},{"startTime":1600.62,"endTime":1604.3,"body":"we have whenever we struggle with imposter syndrome. So, dealing"},{"startTime":1604.3,"endTime":1607.98,"body":"with imposter syndrome just by using the conscious mind, dealing"},{"startTime":1607.98,"endTime":1611.645,"body":"with imposter syndrome just by using cognitive tools is not"},{"startTime":1611.645,"endTime":1615.005,"body":"enough, because the mind won't be"},{"startTime":1615.005,"endTime":1618.32,"body":"in an empowering place until we"},{"startTime":1618.539,"endTime":1622.22,"body":"tell the body it's safe, until"},{"startTime":1622.22,"endTime":1625.98,"body":"we train the body's nervous system to go back to a"},{"startTime":1625.98,"endTime":1629.825,"body":"state of balance. Okay. So, you can"},{"startTime":1629.825,"endTime":1633.585,"body":"basically do as much mindset work as you like, if the body is"},{"startTime":1633.585,"endTime":1637.16,"body":"not responding in alignment with what the mind is trying to tell"},{"startTime":1637.16,"endTime":1640.76,"body":"it, then the mindset work isn't going to"},{"startTime":1640.76,"endTime":1644.52,"body":"work. Yes. So, it can work, and it does"},{"startTime":1644.52,"endTime":1648.345,"body":"work temporarily. But then, there's also some"},{"startTime":1648.345,"endTime":1651.085,"body":"research showing that people who"},{"startTime":1651.384,"endTime":1654.524,"body":"only do mindset work"},{"startTime":1654.97,"endTime":1658.429,"body":"to deal with imposter syndrome tend to beat themselves"},{"startTime":1659.13,"endTime":1662.705,"body":"up. Therefore, what they are doing is, they are worsening their own"},{"startTime":1662.705,"endTime":1665.445,"body":"imposter syndrome experience. And that's also why"},{"startTime":1666.304,"endTime":1670.14,"body":"traditional coaching is not enough because it's"},{"startTime":1670.14,"endTime":1673.82,"body":"not about mindset. It's a subconscious fear-based"},{"startTime":1673.82,"endTime":1677.5,"body":"response. It's an identity-level issue whenever we struggle"},{"startTime":1677.5,"endTime":1680.845,"body":"with imposter syndrome. Therefore, we need to consider the body"},{"startTime":1681.145,"endTime":1684.985,"body":"on the journey before we deal with imposter"},{"startTime":1684.985,"endTime":1688.6,"body":"syndrome cognitively speaking. I'm sure that"},{"startTime":1688.6,"endTime":1692.12,"body":"there are a whole range of different things"},{"startTime":1692.12,"endTime":1695.88,"body":"that people can try. But I'd love it if you were able to give"},{"startTime":1695.88,"endTime":1699.625,"body":"one practice which someone at"},{"startTime":1699.625,"endTime":1703.465,"body":"home can try in relation to the physical aspect, and one"},{"startTime":1703.465,"endTime":1706.925,"body":"practice that someone can try in relation to the mindset aspect. One"},{"startTime":1707.69,"endTime":1711.29,"body":"practice, and this makes me smile, because whenever"},{"startTime":1711.29,"endTime":1715.13,"body":"I share this also with the people I work with,"},{"startTime":1715.13,"endTime":1718.825,"body":"whether it's through coaching sessions or through workshop facilitation, one"},{"startTime":1719.285,"endTime":1722.825,"body":"of the practices is breathing. We"},{"startTime":1723.259,"endTime":1726.48,"body":"may think, you know, we know how to breathe, but"},{"startTime":1726.94,"endTime":1730.47,"body":"really we don't. And particularly when we struggle"},{"startTime":1731.035,"endTime":1733.275,"body":"with imposter syndrome, have those repeated"},{"startTime":1733.275,"endTime":1737.115,"body":"fear-based thoughts. Therefore, our breathing"},{"startTime":1737.115,"endTime":1740.015,"body":"may be shallow or fast. So,"},{"startTime":1740.86,"endTime":1744.62,"body":"just being conscious of the way we breathe and slowing down"},{"startTime":1744.62,"endTime":1748.22,"body":"the breathing can help us. So, one of the practices"},{"startTime":1748.22,"endTime":1751.975,"body":"could be box breathing when you inhale"},{"startTime":1751.975,"endTime":1755.815,"body":"with your nose for four seconds,"},{"startTime":1755.815,"endTime":1759.56,"body":"then you hold your breath for another four seconds, and then you exhale"},{"startTime":1759.56,"endTime":1763.24,"body":"through your mouth for another four seconds. So, that's"},{"startTime":1763.24,"endTime":1766.955,"body":"something that you could do. There are many other, as"},{"startTime":1767.115,"endTime":1770.255,"body":"you may also know, there are many other techniques"},{"startTime":1770.555,"endTime":1774.371,"body":"from a breathing point of view you can use. Box breathing"},{"startTime":1774.372,"endTime":1778.1,"body":"is just one of those. But I would also add, particularly for"},{"startTime":1778.1,"endTime":1780.84,"body":"those people who"},{"startTime":1781.22,"endTime":1784.294,"body":"might be completely new to breathing and"},{"startTime":1784.294,"endTime":1788.135,"body":"deep breathing, particularly when it comes to those deep breathing"},{"startTime":1788.135,"endTime":1791.94,"body":"techniques, applying techniques like box breathing might actually"},{"startTime":1791.94,"endTime":1795.38,"body":"be detrimental to their overall well-being because"},{"startTime":1795.38,"endTime":1799.059,"body":"it might be a shock for their body's nervous system to suddenly"},{"startTime":1799.059,"endTime":1802.615,"body":"take a deep breath in and out. Therefore,"},{"startTime":1802.615,"endTime":1806.215,"body":"just slowing down your breathing could be an"},{"startTime":1806.215,"endTime":1810.04,"body":"initial good practice for you to help"},{"startTime":1810.5,"endTime":1814.2,"body":"the body go back to a place of balance, so"},{"startTime":1814.34,"endTime":1817.304,"body":"that the mind can become less"},{"startTime":1817.304,"endTime":1821.065,"body":"noisy and more"},{"startTime":1821.065,"endTime":1824.585,"body":"supportive for the work you might need to do."},{"startTime":1825.61,"endTime":1829.389,"body":"Okay. And just slowing down the breathing, the effect of that"},{"startTime":1829.45,"endTime":1833.289,"body":"physically is things like reduced cortisol levels and"},{"startTime":1833.289,"endTime":1836.255,"body":"that sort of thing? That's correct. Yes. By"},{"startTime":1836.635,"endTime":1840.235,"body":"just by slowing down your breathing, you"},{"startTime":1840.235,"endTime":1843.83,"body":"would reduce the stress hormones, adrenaline and"},{"startTime":1843.83,"endTime":1847.67,"body":"cortisol, but also, there is an element"},{"startTime":1847.67,"endTime":1850.89,"body":"of mindfulness, but it's not just about applying mindfulness"},{"startTime":1851.385,"endTime":1854.745,"body":"to your daily practice, this is also something that"},{"startTime":1854.985,"endTime":1858.585,"body":"neuroscience has proved. Just by slowing down your"},{"startTime":1858.585,"endTime":1861.85,"body":"breathing and potentially allowing yourself"},{"startTime":1862.31,"endTime":1866.07,"body":"to gradually engage with deep breathing, what you're"},{"startTime":1866.07,"endTime":1869.695,"body":"doing is, you are gradually detaching from"},{"startTime":1869.695,"endTime":1873.235,"body":"the amygdala, which is the emotional part of the brain."},{"startTime":1874.015,"endTime":1877.79,"body":"That's where you have the fear response. So, whenever you struggle with imposter"},{"startTime":1877.93,"endTime":1881.45,"body":"syndrome, your amygdala, the"},{"startTime":1881.45,"endTime":1884.89,"body":"primal part of your brain, which is responsible for your"},{"startTime":1884.89,"endTime":1888.635,"body":"survival, is highly activated. So, just"},{"startTime":1888.635,"endTime":1892.075,"body":"by slowing down your breathing, what you're doing is, you are"},{"startTime":1892.075,"endTime":1895.75,"body":"gradually deactivating your amygdala response,"},{"startTime":1895.89,"endTime":1899.49,"body":"and you are reconnecting with the"},{"startTime":1899.49,"endTime":1903.065,"body":"prefrontal cortex. So, this is something"},{"startTime":1903.065,"endTime":1906.825,"body":"that can help you become more creative, but also"},{"startTime":1906.825,"endTime":1909.97,"body":"more solution-focused. And also,"},{"startTime":1910.51,"endTime":1914.13,"body":"because we are talking about your prefrontal cortex, we are also talking about"},{"startTime":1914.83,"endTime":1918.529,"body":"that part of your brain which is responsible for"},{"startTime":1918.995,"endTime":1922.455,"body":"emotional regulation. So, that's also how we"},{"startTime":1922.755,"endTime":1926.295,"body":"train the body's nervous system to be safely"},{"startTime":1926.355,"endTime":1929.47,"body":"regulated. So, that's a physical practice"},{"startTime":1929.929,"endTime":1933.23,"body":"that someone can try. What about a mindset"},{"startTime":1933.289,"endTime":1937.049,"body":"practice? And I'd be interested to know if you've got one that's kind of"},{"startTime":1937.049,"endTime":1940.475,"body":"like a tool you can use in any kind of situation. So,"},{"startTime":1940.475,"endTime":1943.695,"body":"regardless of how imposter syndrome might be"},{"startTime":1943.835,"endTime":1947.07,"body":"presenting itself, whether there's like a"},{"startTime":1947.07,"endTime":1950.51,"body":"go-to, I don't know, almost like an emergency tool that you can"},{"startTime":1950.51,"endTime":1954.21,"body":"just get out the toolkit, and that'll help you in"},{"startTime":1954.605,"endTime":1957.985,"body":"whatever situation you're in. One that I have in mind,"},{"startTime":1958.045,"endTime":1961.345,"body":"which I also often encourage clients"},{"startTime":1961.405,"endTime":1964.57,"body":"to practice, is cognitive"},{"startTime":1964.79,"endTime":1968.17,"body":"diffusion. Basically, there are many ways in which you can"},{"startTime":1968.31,"endTime":1971.29,"body":"dispel unsupportive, unhelpful thoughts."},{"startTime":1971.67,"endTime":1975.275,"body":"And this is something that you can apply to imposter"},{"startTime":1975.275,"endTime":1978.415,"body":"syndrome, but also more generally, whenever you have unsupportive,"},{"startTime":1978.875,"endTime":1982.45,"body":"unhelpful thoughts that might hold you back. You can sing"},{"startTime":1982.45,"endTime":1986.21,"body":"it out. So, whenever you have an"},{"startTime":1986.21,"endTime":1990.054,"body":"imposter syndrome thought, you can turn it into a song. So,"},{"startTime":1990.054,"endTime":1993.595,"body":"that might feel awkward at the beginning, but what you're doing is,"},{"startTime":1993.894,"endTime":1997.254,"body":"you're telling your brain whatever is"},{"startTime":1997.254,"endTime":2000.89,"body":"happening is not serious. We don't need to pay attention."},{"startTime":2001.11,"endTime":2004.65,"body":"So, this is one way to trick your brain into believing that"},{"startTime":2005.03,"endTime":2008.555,"body":"whatever it is happening, in this case, whatever you're"},{"startTime":2008.555,"endTime":2012.235,"body":"thinking is just a thought. There is"},{"startTime":2012.235,"endTime":2015.595,"body":"no need for you to pay attention to this thought."},{"startTime":2015.595,"endTime":2018.71,"body":"Otherwise, you will just amplify whatever"},{"startTime":2019.09,"endTime":2022.63,"body":"type of thought you're having. So, you can"},{"startTime":2022.77,"endTime":2026.135,"body":"turn it into a song, you can slow it down,"},{"startTime":2026.674,"endTime":2030.434,"body":"or you can use the third person. Just"},{"startTime":2030.434,"endTime":2034.16,"body":"to give you an example, let's say I'm having"},{"startTime":2034.16,"endTime":2037.6,"body":"a thought of not being good enough. So, I could"},{"startTime":2037.6,"endTime":2041.355,"body":"say, once I've slowed down my breathing,"},{"startTime":2041.655,"endTime":2045.335,"body":"and I gradually feel better or slightly"},{"startTime":2045.335,"endTime":2049.179,"body":"better physically speaking, then I might say, 'I'm"},{"startTime":2049.179,"endTime":2052.859,"body":"noticing that Massimo is thinking of not being good"},{"startTime":2052.859,"endTime":2056.32,"body":"enough. Or I'm noticing that Massimo is"},{"startTime":2056.54,"endTime":2059.985,"body":"noticing that he is thinking of not"},{"startTime":2060.285,"endTime":2063.665,"body":"being good enough.' Just by doing this, we are"},{"startTime":2064.445,"endTime":2067.77,"body":"reinforcing the activity in our prefrontal cortex."},{"startTime":2068.01,"endTime":2071.69,"body":"So, all of this, particularly if it's new, can feel"},{"startTime":2071.69,"endTime":2075.07,"body":"awkward, it might make us smile, but this"},{"startTime":2075.465,"endTime":2079.165,"body":"is how we can train the brain to approach whatever we"},{"startTime":2079.225,"endTime":2082.824,"body":"are thinking as a passing cloud. Because the problem is"},{"startTime":2082.824,"endTime":2086.43,"body":"not the thought. It's not about having"},{"startTime":2086.43,"endTime":2089.95,"body":"negative thoughts, or it's not about not"},{"startTime":2089.95,"endTime":2093.784,"body":"having negative thoughts. The issue arises when we identify"},{"startTime":2093.784,"endTime":2096.764,"body":"with those negative thoughts. The issue arises when we"},{"startTime":2096.824,"endTime":2099.625,"body":"let those thoughts control us."},{"startTime":2101.15,"endTime":2104.91,"body":"So, just the singing one. So, you know, let's say that, I don't"},{"startTime":2104.91,"endTime":2108.11,"body":"know, my boss has given me a report to write, and for whatever reason, I"},{"startTime":2108.11,"endTime":2111.765,"body":"don't feel like I'm able to. I mean, clearly, my boss thinks that I can"},{"startTime":2111.765,"endTime":2115.445,"body":"and I've got the tools, but for some reason, I don't feel like I can."},{"startTime":2115.445,"endTime":2119.119,"body":"Is it me singing to myself, 'I"},{"startTime":2119.119,"endTime":2122.48,"body":"can't write this report', and doing it that way? Is"},{"startTime":2122.48,"endTime":2126.085,"body":"that one of the techniques that you're saying? That's right. Yes."},{"startTime":2126.145,"endTime":2129.905,"body":"So, if you have a favourite song, or if you have a favourite melody,"},{"startTime":2129.905,"endTime":2133.37,"body":"you can turn that thought into your favourite song or your favourite"},{"startTime":2133.45,"endTime":2137.13,"body":"melody. And just by doing that, you will make it"},{"startTime":2137.13,"endTime":2140.67,"body":"less and less and less serious, to the point that your body will"},{"startTime":2140.81,"endTime":2144.615,"body":"feel even better, and your brain won't"},{"startTime":2144.615,"endTime":2148.215,"body":"pay attention to that thought. So, how is that not reinforcing?"},{"startTime":2148.215,"endTime":2152.04,"body":"If the thought is, 'I can't write this report', and"},{"startTime":2152.04,"endTime":2155.72,"body":"then I start singing it to a particular tune, how does that disperse"},{"startTime":2155.72,"endTime":2159.339,"body":"it rather than reinforce the thought? Because whenever"},{"startTime":2159.339,"endTime":2162.87,"body":"you reinforce the thought, it's because you're resisting"},{"startTime":2162.87,"endTime":2165.96,"body":"the thought by pushing away, or because"},{"startTime":2166.359,"endTime":2170.2,"body":"you're really feeling worried, you're really feeling scared. And"},{"startTime":2170.2,"endTime":2173.98,"body":"that also amplifies your internal critical"},{"startTime":2174.04,"endTime":2177.645,"body":"dialogue. If you allow yourself to"},{"startTime":2177.645,"endTime":2181.325,"body":"sing it, to turn it into a song, it"},{"startTime":2181.325,"endTime":2185.089,"body":"will just make it less serious. And so, there is evidence"},{"startTime":2185.089,"endTime":2188.93,"body":"showing that you might even laugh about it,"},{"startTime":2188.93,"endTime":2192.069,"body":"you might even catch yourself smiling, which will"},{"startTime":2192.945,"endTime":2196.485,"body":"decrease the stress response in your body. Therefore, you"},{"startTime":2196.945,"endTime":2200.705,"body":"are preparing your brain to make space for"},{"startTime":2200.705,"endTime":2204.45,"body":"a different choice. So, that's where you can"},{"startTime":2204.45,"endTime":2207.83,"body":"show yourself some sort of micro courage to think"},{"startTime":2208.29,"endTime":2211.975,"body":"a different thought. And so, you slow down your breathing,"},{"startTime":2211.975,"endTime":2215.675,"body":"or you engage with many other body-based"},{"startTime":2215.895,"endTime":2219.53,"body":"techniques, including other different breathing techniques,"},{"startTime":2219.67,"endTime":2222.71,"body":"then you can use some"},{"startTime":2223.03,"endTime":2226.855,"body":"mindset techniques, including the ones"},{"startTime":2226.855,"endTime":2229.995,"body":"I've shared with you, because this will"},{"startTime":2230.615,"endTime":2234.455,"body":"help you not only change the structure of your thought,"},{"startTime":2234.455,"endTime":2238.25,"body":"but also, this will help you change the relationship"},{"startTime":2238.55,"endTime":2242.25,"body":"with your thoughts. So, by turning it into a song, your relationship"},{"startTime":2242.765,"endTime":2246.065,"body":"with that thought will be different, and it"},{"startTime":2246.525,"endTime":2250.18,"body":"won't be coming from a place of fear. Okay. So, what"},{"startTime":2250.18,"endTime":2253.94,"body":"I'm hearing is an acknowledgment. So, whether it's the"},{"startTime":2253.94,"endTime":2257.615,"body":"singing or whether it's, like you described, talking to yourself"},{"startTime":2257.675,"endTime":2261.435,"body":"in the third person, it's not about trying to suppress"},{"startTime":2261.435,"endTime":2265.1,"body":"or chase the thought away, but it's trying to bring it to the fore"},{"startTime":2265.1,"endTime":2268.54,"body":"so you can actually see it there in front of you and"},{"startTime":2268.54,"endTime":2272.025,"body":"deal with it that way. That's correct. Yes. And"},{"startTime":2272.025,"endTime":2275.785,"body":"actually, what you just said is important. Because when you"},{"startTime":2275.785,"endTime":2279.545,"body":"allow yourself to see the thought in front of you, what you're doing"},{"startTime":2279.545,"endTime":2283.24,"body":"is, you're stepping into the observer role, which means"},{"startTime":2283.24,"endTime":2286.84,"body":"that you are taking a healthy distance from the primal"},{"startTime":2286.84,"endTime":2290.345,"body":"part of your brain which is responsible for your survival."},{"startTime":2290.345,"endTime":2294.105,"body":"So, you are decreasing the survival response, and you"},{"startTime":2294.105,"endTime":2297.244,"body":"are increasing the prefrontal cortex response,"},{"startTime":2297.81,"endTime":2301.65,"body":"which will help you feel more regulated. And once"},{"startTime":2301.65,"endTime":2305.305,"body":"you feel more regulated, then with your conscious"},{"startTime":2305.305,"endTime":2309.145,"body":"mind, you can make a different choice. And a"},{"startTime":2309.145,"endTime":2312.505,"body":"different choice is what do you want to think instead."},{"startTime":2312.505,"endTime":2316.2,"body":"And so, that's how you can use your"},{"startTime":2316.74,"endTime":2320.519,"body":"mindset to deal with imposter syndrome,"},{"startTime":2320.579,"endTime":2323.845,"body":"by creating space for empowering,"},{"startTime":2324.145,"endTime":2327.845,"body":"supportive thoughts to help you achieve whatever"},{"startTime":2328.065,"endTime":2331.72,"body":"goal is important to you or whatever you want to create."},{"startTime":2331.72,"endTime":2335.56,"body":"And I feel like if you're in a space where"},{"startTime":2335.56,"endTime":2338.92,"body":"you can, so maybe not in the middle of an open plan office, that it"},{"startTime":2338.92,"endTime":2342.765,"body":"might be best whatever you do physically to"},{"startTime":2343.145,"endTime":2346.985,"body":"vocalise this. So, whether you actually sing this song to yourself"},{"startTime":2346.985,"endTime":2350.54,"body":"or whether you actually physically say to yourself, 'I'm"},{"startTime":2350.54,"endTime":2353.98,"body":"noticing that Jeremy is whatever it"},{"startTime":2353.98,"endTime":2357.745,"body":"is doing', then, yeah, actually, saying it"},{"startTime":2357.745,"endTime":2361.585,"body":"out loud and not just in your head could be a good thing. Is"},{"startTime":2361.585,"endTime":2365.42,"body":"that right? That's right. Yes. It doesn't make"},{"startTime":2365.42,"endTime":2369.119,"body":"any difference, because your subconscious mind doesn't"},{"startTime":2369.26,"endTime":2372.994,"body":"know what is real and what is"},{"startTime":2372.994,"endTime":2376.355,"body":"imagined. The brain doesn't know the difference between"},{"startTime":2376.355,"endTime":2380.035,"body":"what is real and what is imagined. So, you can sing it out loud,"},{"startTime":2380.035,"endTime":2383.52,"body":"or you can use the other techniques, even by"},{"startTime":2383.52,"endTime":2387.28,"body":"saying that to yourself, because that will still"},{"startTime":2387.28,"endTime":2390.785,"body":"have an impact on your subconscious. I'd love"},{"startTime":2391.405,"endTime":2395.185,"body":"to just finish with an example of a practical success story."},{"startTime":2395.484,"endTime":2398.76,"body":"So, maybe this is a client, maybe it's even you,"},{"startTime":2398.76,"endTime":2402.2,"body":"yourself, the sort of before and after of"},{"startTime":2402.2,"endTime":2405.425,"body":"what imposter syndrome was doing before and"},{"startTime":2405.645,"endTime":2409.165,"body":"what it looked like once it had been eradicated"},{"startTime":2409.165,"endTime":2412.224,"body":"or whatever. So, yeah,"},{"startTime":2412.365,"endTime":2416.1,"body":"what example can you give of that? So, an"},{"startTime":2416.48,"endTime":2420.02,"body":"example that comes to mind is about a client"},{"startTime":2420.48,"endTime":2423.825,"body":"whose imposter syndrome experience was"},{"startTime":2424.285,"endTime":2427.645,"body":"holding them back from speaking up"},{"startTime":2427.965,"endTime":2431.359,"body":"in team meetings. Whenever there"},{"startTime":2431.58,"endTime":2435.26,"body":"was an opportunity for them to speak up in"},{"startTime":2435.26,"endTime":2438.714,"body":"those team meetings, or whenever they wanted to"},{"startTime":2438.714,"endTime":2441.935,"body":"share their ideas in those team meetings, we identified"},{"startTime":2442.555,"endTime":2446.075,"body":"some early warning signs of"},{"startTime":2446.075,"endTime":2449.39,"body":"that imposter syndrome experience, including"},{"startTime":2449.529,"endTime":2453.289,"body":"hand sweating, their voice"},{"startTime":2453.849,"endTime":2457.355,"body":"becoming more contracted, and also,"},{"startTime":2458.055,"endTime":2461.575,"body":"by thinking certain thoughts. And that's something"},{"startTime":2461.575,"endTime":2465.115,"body":"that deserved our attention, because whenever you"},{"startTime":2465.57,"endTime":2469.33,"body":"deal with imposter syndrome, there's usually a conflict between your"},{"startTime":2469.33,"endTime":2473.01,"body":"conscious mind and your subconscious mind. So, in this case, my"},{"startTime":2473.01,"endTime":2476.625,"body":"client wanted to participate in those meetings, they"},{"startTime":2476.625,"endTime":2480.385,"body":"wanted to share their great ideas, but there was a need,"},{"startTime":2480.385,"endTime":2483.985,"body":"subconsciously speaking, for them to meet. And the need was"},{"startTime":2483.985,"endTime":2487.43,"body":"all about safety, and more specifically, we identified,"},{"startTime":2487.97,"endTime":2490.87,"body":"being protected from public"},{"startTime":2491.49,"endTime":2494.954,"body":"criticism. So, we explored that, and"},{"startTime":2494.954,"endTime":2498.015,"body":"through different kinds of techniques, including some"},{"startTime":2498.315,"endTime":2501.66,"body":"of the techniques I shared"},{"startTime":2502.52,"endTime":2506.359,"body":"with you, we identified a different kind of belief"},{"startTime":2506.359,"endTime":2510.175,"body":"that translated into certain behaviours, certain"},{"startTime":2510.175,"endTime":2514.015,"body":"thoughts, certain actions. And together, we explored"},{"startTime":2514.015,"endTime":2517.77,"body":"a few ways in which, also by using"},{"startTime":2517.77,"endTime":2521.23,"body":"this new empowering belief, they could"},{"startTime":2521.93,"endTime":2525.39,"body":"turn their inner critic into their"},{"startTime":2525.45,"endTime":2529.224,"body":"cheerleader. And so, as a result"},{"startTime":2529.224,"endTime":2532.825,"body":"of that, my client took some micro-courageous actions."},{"startTime":2532.825,"endTime":2536.63,"body":"And, eventually, their ideas"},{"startTime":2536.63,"endTime":2540.31,"body":"were shared during those meetings, to the point that"},{"startTime":2540.31,"endTime":2543.715,"body":"now they are working on a project within"},{"startTime":2543.715,"endTime":2547.075,"body":"the organisation, and it's one of those projects that will"},{"startTime":2547.075,"endTime":2550.295,"body":"make a difference within the organisation. So, that"},{"startTime":2550.915,"endTime":2554.36,"body":"means more visibility, more opportunities for"},{"startTime":2554.36,"endTime":2558.12,"body":"you to shine, potentially a promotion. So, yeah, so"},{"startTime":2558.12,"endTime":2561.855,"body":"that's one way in which you can gradually deal with imposter syndrome"},{"startTime":2561.855,"endTime":2565.295,"body":"in a way that is effective, and also in"},{"startTime":2565.295,"endTime":2568.45,"body":"a way that can help you improve"},{"startTime":2569.47,"endTime":2573.309,"body":"your work experience. That's amazing. I love that"},{"startTime":2573.309,"endTime":2576.735,"body":"story. For someone who wants to find out more,"},{"startTime":2576.735,"endTime":2580.575,"body":"what resources can you suggest where they can learn a bit more"},{"startTime":2580.575,"endTime":2584.035,"body":"about this subject? These are some resources I've also"},{"startTime":2584.335,"endTime":2587.95,"body":"used to do my own research on the"},{"startTime":2587.95,"endTime":2591.63,"body":"topic. I would definitely suggest the"},{"startTime":2591.63,"endTime":2594.835,"body":"book by Pauline Clance, The Imposter Phenomenon,"},{"startTime":2595.055,"endTime":2598.494,"body":"Overcoming the Fear That Haunts Your Success. I would"},{"startTime":2598.494,"endTime":2601.51,"body":"also invite your audience to check out"},{"startTime":2601.73,"endTime":2605.19,"body":"impostersyndrome.com because there are"},{"startTime":2605.41,"endTime":2609.09,"body":"different kinds of resources to help them come up"},{"startTime":2609.09,"endTime":2612.575,"body":"with some coping strategies, which"},{"startTime":2613.275,"endTime":2616.975,"body":"will focus on mindset, and also,"},{"startTime":2617.72,"endTime":2621.079,"body":"on the body's nervous system. And this is also why"},{"startTime":2621.079,"endTime":2624.76,"body":"another source that I'd like to add is"},{"startTime":2624.76,"endTime":2628.404,"body":"called How to Befriend Your Nervous System"},{"startTime":2628.545,"endTime":2632.005,"body":"Using Polyvagal Theory. The author is Deb Dana,"},{"startTime":2632.224,"endTime":2635.744,"body":"a clinician, consultant, and speaker specialising in"},{"startTime":2635.744,"endTime":2639.589,"body":"complex trauma. And if someone wants to find you,"},{"startTime":2639.589,"endTime":2643.19,"body":"where would you like them to go? I don't have a website. I do have"},{"startTime":2643.19,"endTime":2646.895,"body":"a LinkedIn page. I'm on LinkedIn, Massimo Roselli."},{"startTime":2647.515,"endTime":2651.355,"body":"So, yes, that's where I am, and I'll be more than happy"},{"startTime":2651.355,"endTime":2654.85,"body":"to help anyone who may be struggling with imposter"},{"startTime":2654.91,"endTime":2658.67,"body":"syndrome. Links in the show notes as always. Massimo, thank"},{"startTime":2658.67,"endTime":2662.465,"body":"you so much. This has been a really great conversation, fascinating subject."},{"startTime":2662.685,"endTime":2666.285,"body":"Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge. Thank you. Thank you"},{"startTime":2666.285,"endTime":2670.1,"body":"for the opportunity. Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview"},{"startTime":2670.1,"endTime":2673.88,"body":"with Massimo Roselli. What I hadn't really thought about"},{"startTime":2674.02,"endTime":2677.595,"body":"was this idea of getting the body and the mind"},{"startTime":2677.595,"endTime":2681.355,"body":"into agreement. So, what Massimo was saying was that"},{"startTime":2681.355,"endTime":2684.9,"body":"you can do the mind exercises, you can"},{"startTime":2684.9,"endTime":2688.34,"body":"notice yourself having negative thoughts and"},{"startTime":2688.34,"endTime":2692.135,"body":"trying to turn those around into positive thoughts, but if"},{"startTime":2692.135,"endTime":2695.974,"body":"your body is disagreeing with that, then"},{"startTime":2695.974,"endTime":2699.435,"body":"whatever you're doing with your mind might not necessarily be so effective."},{"startTime":2700.069,"endTime":2703.13,"body":"So, I really liked the simple techniques Massimo suggested,"},{"startTime":2703.829,"endTime":2707.27,"body":"just slowing down your breathing, maybe trying box"},{"startTime":2707.27,"endTime":2711.025,"body":"breathing, making sure you're trying to reduce the physical"},{"startTime":2711.245,"endTime":2715.085,"body":"stress feelings that your body is experiencing at"},{"startTime":2715.085,"endTime":2718.59,"body":"the same time as doing the mind work. It was"},{"startTime":2718.59,"endTime":2722.43,"body":"also interesting hearing about the different ways that imposter"},{"startTime":2722.43,"endTime":2725.974,"body":"syndrome can show up. Perfectionism was one"},{"startTime":2725.974,"endTime":2729.575,"body":"which particularly resonated with me. I recently had a"},{"startTime":2729.575,"endTime":2733.415,"body":"coaching conversation with a client who was doing twice as much work as he"},{"startTime":2733.415,"endTime":2736.48,"body":"needed to do for an assignment because it was"},{"startTime":2736.48,"endTime":2739.92,"body":"research-based. And he just wanted to keep on researching and researching and"},{"startTime":2739.92,"endTime":2743.545,"body":"researching, just to make sure that he hadn't missed anything,"},{"startTime":2743.925,"endTime":2747.765,"body":"when in reality he hadn't. What it seemed like was"},{"startTime":2747.765,"endTime":2751.47,"body":"going on was this need to prove his worth, to prove that he had"},{"startTime":2751.47,"endTime":2754.609,"body":"done all the work, so that he could present an absolutely"},{"startTime":2754.91,"endTime":2758.75,"body":"waterside answer. As always, show notes for this episode are on"},{"startTime":2758.75,"endTime":2762.234,"body":"the website, there at changeworklife.com/190, that's"},{"startTime":2762.234,"endTime":2765.994,"body":"changeworklife.com/190, with"},{"startTime":2765.994,"endTime":2769.39,"body":"the links to Massimo's LinkedIn profile and the"},{"startTime":2769.39,"endTime":2773.17,"body":"resources mentioned in the interview. This is episode"},{"startTime":2773.31,"endTime":2777.07,"body":"190, which means that episode 200 isn't all that far"},{"startTime":2777.07,"endTime":2780.725,"body":"away. That's currently scheduled for coming out"},{"startTime":2780.725,"endTime":2783.945,"body":"in February, and I'd love your ideas."},{"startTime":2784.325,"endTime":2788.04,"body":"How can I mark 200 episodes? What would you like"},{"startTime":2788.04,"endTime":2791.48,"body":"me to do? What would you like to hear? Love your"},{"startTime":2791.48,"endTime":2793.587,"body":"ideas. You can get in touch with me at changeworklife.com/contact. That's changeworklife.com/contact. And yeah, give"},{"startTime":2793.588,"endTime":2793.688,"body":"me your ideas. How would you like us to celebrate episode 200? In the meantime,"},{"startTime":2793.689,"endTime":2793.797,"body":"we've got more episodes coming between now and then, so make sure you are subscribed"},{"startTime":2793.798,"endTime":2793.88,"body":"to the show if you're not already, and I can't wait to see you next"},{"startTime":2793.88,"endTime":2793.88,"body":"time. Cheers. Bye."}]}