{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.08,"endTime":3.52,"body":"What are the things to be thinking about when you've got the opportunity to work"},{"startTime":3.52,"endTime":7.359,"body":"abroad? How do you find a place to live, set up utilities, set"},{"startTime":7.359,"endTime":11.12,"body":"up bank accounts? How do you socialize somewhere where you might"},{"startTime":11.12,"endTime":14.259,"body":"not just know anybody, but you might not even speak the language?"},{"startTime":14.745,"endTime":18.585,"body":"That's what we're talking about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline and this is"},{"startTime":18.585,"endTime":19.645,"body":"Change Work Life."},{"startTime":35.18,"endTime":38.94,"body":"Hello and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast where we're all about"},{"startTime":38.94,"endTime":42.585,"body":"beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know"},{"startTime":42.585,"endTime":46.105,"body":"how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right"},{"startTime":46.105,"endTime":49.545,"body":"place. It's a big world out there, and the"},{"startTime":49.545,"endTime":53.305,"body":"opportunity may present itself for you to relocate to another country for"},{"startTime":53.305,"endTime":56.89,"body":"work. It's potentially very exciting, but you'd"},{"startTime":56.89,"endTime":60.73,"body":"probably have lots of questions. How do you know where to live? How"},{"startTime":60.73,"endTime":64.11,"body":"do you settle in? How do you set up bank accounts, utilities,"},{"startTime":64.25,"endTime":67.975,"body":"internet, and so on? If you have a partner and children, what about"},{"startTime":67.975,"endTime":71.034,"body":"them? Will your partner work? What are the school options?"},{"startTime":71.814,"endTime":75.414,"body":"To help answer all these questions and more, I'm joined this week by"},{"startTime":75.414,"endTime":78.395,"body":"Nathan Cornwell of Nathan Cornwell Consulting."},{"startTime":78.935,"endTime":82.77,"body":"Nathan is an organisational psychologist and consultant who"},{"startTime":82.77,"endTime":86.53,"body":"works with expats and international teams, including helping"},{"startTime":86.53,"endTime":89.59,"body":"those who might be crossing borders and switching workplaces."},{"startTime":90.13,"endTime":93.935,"body":"Nathan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. I'm glad to"},{"startTime":93.935,"endTime":96.835,"body":"be here. Looking forward to the conversation today. Thank you."},{"startTime":97.695,"endTime":101.535,"body":"So, how did you come to specialize in this area, this kind of like cross"},{"startTime":101.535,"endTime":105.375,"body":"border expat world? Yeah. So, there's a bit of"},{"startTime":105.375,"endTime":108.95,"body":"a long version to this, and I was trying to tell you the quick version"},{"startTime":108.95,"endTime":112.409,"body":"of it, but essentially, when I was"},{"startTime":112.79,"endTime":116.47,"body":"about 22, I finished university with"},{"startTime":116.47,"endTime":119.909,"body":"a kind of lack of an idea of what I wanted to do with my"},{"startTime":119.909,"endTime":123.315,"body":"life. But I know I'm not alone in that, but it's something that you kind"},{"startTime":123.315,"endTime":127.155,"body":"of have to figure out yourself in some respects. I took the opportunity to"},{"startTime":127.155,"endTime":130.995,"body":"go travelling. So, I went backpacking in Australia and fell in love with the idea"},{"startTime":130.995,"endTime":134.595,"body":"of travelling and exploring new places, getting to"},{"startTime":134.595,"endTime":138.28,"body":"see new and exciting things that I hadn't experienced before being on the other side"},{"startTime":138.28,"endTime":142.12,"body":"of the world to do it. So, during that trip, I made a conscious decision"},{"startTime":142.12,"endTime":145.9,"body":"to find out other ways that I could start exploring and,"},{"startTime":145.96,"endTime":149.56,"body":"working in different countries. I think that was the idea, to try and"},{"startTime":149.56,"endTime":153.215,"body":"find opportunities to actually work and live in another country. So,"},{"startTime":153.215,"endTime":157.055,"body":"I studied psychology, shortly after coming back from"},{"startTime":157.055,"endTime":160.815,"body":"Australia as a master's, I was lucky enough to do it long distance"},{"startTime":160.815,"endTime":164.175,"body":"and have that opportunity. But I needed to pay for it, and I needed the"},{"startTime":164.175,"endTime":168.01,"body":"time to do it. So, that actually took me out to South Korea"},{"startTime":168.01,"endTime":171.37,"body":"where I knew I could earn some money, fulfil"},{"startTime":171.37,"endTime":175.129,"body":"that ambition to live abroad and also pay off the master's"},{"startTime":175.129,"endTime":178.73,"body":"at the same time. So, I jetted off to South Korea"},{"startTime":178.73,"endTime":182.394,"body":"for just over a year. And I was teaching English out there, which is"},{"startTime":182.394,"endTime":185.754,"body":"actually aligned with the bachelor's that I'd done. So, it kind of made a little"},{"startTime":185.754,"endTime":189.275,"body":"bit of sense, teaching English abroad, and it was one of the big jobs that"},{"startTime":189.275,"endTime":193.114,"body":"popped up when you typed into Google what jobs can you do when you work"},{"startTime":193.114,"endTime":196.334,"body":"abroad. So, I went for that. I didn't have much"},{"startTime":196.93,"endTime":200.77,"body":"or very little teaching experience, to be honest. And it was evident"},{"startTime":200.77,"endTime":204.53,"body":"from the start that I wasn't entirely sure what I was"},{"startTime":204.53,"endTime":207.09,"body":"actually doing. You know, I was just sort of standing in front of loads of"},{"startTime":207.09,"endTime":210.29,"body":"kids that couldn't really understand what I was saying. You know, it was a bit"},{"startTime":210.29,"endTime":213.905,"body":"of an eye-opener. But gradually over time, I started to"},{"startTime":214.205,"endTime":218.045,"body":"become a bit more competent at it. And I guess that comes with"},{"startTime":218.045,"endTime":221.885,"body":"practice and experience. And then, fast forward later down the"},{"startTime":221.885,"endTime":225.35,"body":"line, I actually moved to China for 6 years and did"},{"startTime":225.49,"endTime":228.55,"body":"sort of a similar thing to begin with, but I made a transition into"},{"startTime":228.85,"endTime":232.45,"body":"the consultancy world. And that was when I was working"},{"startTime":232.45,"endTime":235.97,"body":"with the British Chamber. We kind of do employability-type workshops."},{"startTime":235.97,"endTime":239.745,"body":"Because at the same time, my master's in psychology was coming to"},{"startTime":239.745,"endTime":242.864,"body":"an end. So, the thing with psychology is, you need to specialize in an area."},{"startTime":242.864,"endTime":246.224,"body":"So, I chose organisational psychology to specialize"},{"startTime":246.224,"endTime":249.905,"body":"in, which was kind of fully aligned with the work I've been doing with the"},{"startTime":249.905,"endTime":253.42,"body":"British Chamber. And at that point, I was then looking for"},{"startTime":253.42,"endTime":257.12,"body":"opportunities within that sphere. And I found further"},{"startTime":257.5,"endTime":261.18,"body":"opportunities to go to work and live in different other countries,"},{"startTime":261.18,"endTime":264.845,"body":"consulting on different projects. And that's eventually taken"},{"startTime":264.905,"endTime":268.604,"body":"me to the UAE, which is where I'm living and based now. So,"},{"startTime":268.745,"endTime":272.444,"body":"retrospectively looking back at all these opportunities and"},{"startTime":272.585,"endTime":276.264,"body":"experiences working and living abroad, and I would say I was"},{"startTime":276.264,"endTime":279.96,"body":"developing this expertise in organisational psychology, which is all"},{"startTime":279.96,"endTime":283.48,"body":"about making a workplace better for people. So, kind of combining the two was"},{"startTime":283.48,"endTime":287.32,"body":"where my consultancy seemed to fit. And that's when I decided to"},{"startTime":287.32,"endTime":291.0,"body":"work on supporting expats to develop their workplace"},{"startTime":291.0,"endTime":294.6,"body":"success. And that's what my organisation and consultancy does."},{"startTime":294.6,"endTime":298.275,"body":"It delivers, expats with workplace success and"},{"startTime":298.275,"endTime":301.875,"body":"also supports the organisations that are employing expats. So, that's"},{"startTime":301.875,"endTime":305.475,"body":"the sort of long to short-ish answer to"},{"startTime":305.475,"endTime":307.955,"body":"that question how I got here."},{"startTime":311.039,"endTime":314.879,"body":"So, when you're consulting with the individuals, what"},{"startTime":314.879,"endTime":318.419,"body":"are the circumstances that give rise to the opportunities"},{"startTime":318.639,"endTime":322.479,"body":"for them to move abroad? Yeah. So, there's kind"},{"startTime":322.479,"endTime":326.115,"body":"of four stages to the expatriation process and where"},{"startTime":326.115,"endTime":329.575,"body":"I might come in to support expats on a one-to-one"},{"startTime":329.955,"endTime":333.015,"body":"basis. So, the first is the preparation phase that"},{"startTime":333.075,"endTime":336.615,"body":"they've either been assigned a role abroad,"},{"startTime":336.915,"endTime":340.675,"body":"or they're actively looking for a role abroad. So, that's what I call the"},{"startTime":340.675,"endTime":344.52,"body":"preparation phase. The next phase is actually the onboarding phase. So, once you"},{"startTime":344.52,"endTime":347.88,"body":"get to that new country, you've got to onboard, and this is one of the"},{"startTime":347.88,"endTime":351.32,"body":"most stressful periods. You've got so much learning to do, so much"},{"startTime":351.56,"endTime":355.355,"body":"cultural adjustment to deal with. And obviously, at the same"},{"startTime":355.355,"endTime":358.075,"body":"time you're starting a new job, you might have family that have come with you."},{"startTime":358.075,"endTime":361.775,"body":"So, there's a lot of aspects during that period, which can be quite stressful."},{"startTime":362.235,"endTime":365.675,"body":"The next stage after that is what I call the performing stage. So, you've"},{"startTime":365.675,"endTime":369.28,"body":"onboarded, and now you're ramping up. You're getting to a point where you want to"},{"startTime":369.28,"endTime":373.12,"body":"be a high-performing employee in your organisation. You're still going"},{"startTime":373.12,"endTime":376.88,"body":"through a lot of these challenges. Challenges haven't necessarily gone away. You've had"},{"startTime":376.88,"endTime":380.42,"body":"time to manage them. Now you're trying to work around"},{"startTime":380.725,"endTime":384.565,"body":"different challenges. It's kind of a level up, if you like. And then, the"},{"startTime":384.565,"endTime":387.945,"body":"last point in time is a repatriation challenge. That's when you're"},{"startTime":388.325,"endTime":391.925,"body":"potentially coming back to your home country, and that can be one of the"},{"startTime":391.925,"endTime":395.3,"body":"hardest parts, speaking from personal experience,"},{"startTime":395.3,"endTime":398.9,"body":"readjusting back to your own culture is a major"},{"startTime":398.9,"endTime":402.58,"body":"challenge. It's often very much overlooked. So, it's kind of four"},{"startTime":402.58,"endTime":406.285,"body":"points to the expat journey, and I guess there are different"},{"startTime":406.285,"endTime":409.805,"body":"explanations for why you might want to start off that first part. You"},{"startTime":409.805,"endTime":413.585,"body":"can go two ways. You can either go with a company, which can"},{"startTime":413.725,"endTime":417.165,"body":"be a company you've worked at for some time as an opportunity abroad, and"},{"startTime":417.165,"endTime":420.85,"body":"you need to move there. That can be one typical way"},{"startTime":420.85,"endTime":424.69,"body":"of going abroad to work. The other way is, of course, the self expatriated"},{"startTime":424.69,"endTime":428.29,"body":"way. This is the way that I've done quite a few times,"},{"startTime":428.29,"endTime":431.75,"body":"kind of found a job myself and been expatriated over"},{"startTime":432.05,"endTime":435.815,"body":"there to work. And then, there are"},{"startTime":435.816,"endTime":439.544,"body":"challenges to both sides, but certainly, you're on"},{"startTime":439.544,"endTime":443.384,"body":"your own a little bit in some respects because you're there to kind of culturate"},{"startTime":443.384,"endTime":446.985,"body":"as best as possible, but without that support package around"},{"startTime":446.985,"endTime":450.82,"body":"you. Unless the HRV organisations got it"},{"startTime":450.88,"endTime":454.64,"body":"nailed down, but sometimes they don't really have it nailed"},{"startTime":454.64,"endTime":458.16,"body":"down. I think that's another service I've tried to offer in some respects. So, yeah,"},{"startTime":458.16,"endTime":461.925,"body":"it's going to be the yourself expatriating or going with the company, and"},{"startTime":461.925,"endTime":465.765,"body":"then you've got these four stages to proceed through. So, when I get"},{"startTime":465.765,"endTime":467.605,"body":"services, it's at one of these stages."},{"startTime":469.605,"endTime":473.125,"body":"Yeah. Okay. Well, I'd certainly be interested in diving into"},{"startTime":473.125,"endTime":476.585,"body":"those four stages, but before we get to that, the"},{"startTime":477.2,"endTime":480.58,"body":"repatriation, is it fairly typical"},{"startTime":480.88,"endTime":484.32,"body":"when this situation arises that someone is"},{"startTime":484.32,"endTime":488.08,"body":"going with a view to returning at some point,"},{"startTime":488.08,"endTime":491.905,"body":"it's a temporary move? It's a great question. And I'm not sure"},{"startTime":491.905,"endTime":495.585,"body":"everybody knows the answer. For instance, when I moved abroad to"},{"startTime":495.585,"endTime":499.185,"body":"China, for instance, the plan was to go there for one year, come"},{"startTime":499.185,"endTime":502.8,"body":"back. And yeah, it was about six or seven years that I spent, and that"},{"startTime":502.8,"endTime":506.64,"body":"was never the plan, right? So, I guess even coming back, I didn't know at"},{"startTime":506.64,"endTime":509.68,"body":"that time if I was going to come back, because I saw a form of"},{"startTime":509.68,"endTime":513.44,"body":"this really settled life out there and quite enjoyed it. It"},{"startTime":513.44,"endTime":516.375,"body":"was only during the pandemic when things became a little bit more"},{"startTime":516.615,"endTime":520.215,"body":"extreme, that opportunity to come back, even just to visit,"},{"startTime":520.215,"endTime":523.975,"body":"wasn't there, that kind of forced a lot of expats to repatriate, to"},{"startTime":523.975,"endTime":526.935,"body":"at least look at different places to move to."},{"startTime":526.935,"endTime":530.695,"body":"So, it's a difficult one. Because, yeah, for many people, I'm"},{"startTime":530.695,"endTime":534.5,"body":"sure they're not sure exactly how long they'll go out for. With an"},{"startTime":534.5,"endTime":537.56,"body":"organisational expatriation,"},{"startTime":538.019,"endTime":541.459,"body":"so where you're going with an organisation, that's a bit more arranged."},{"startTime":541.459,"endTime":545.22,"body":"In certain circumstances, there's a bit more kind of"},{"startTime":545.459,"endTime":549.274,"body":"lifespan to it. So, you go there for two years, it might be a two-year"},{"startTime":549.274,"endTime":553.055,"body":"contract, and then the idea is that you're repatriating back into"},{"startTime":553.194,"endTime":557.035,"body":"the business. But certainly, if you go there by yourself, it can be a"},{"startTime":557.035,"endTime":560.654,"body":"different range. I've met a lot of people in my"},{"startTime":560.97,"endTime":563.769,"body":"experience as well. Some of those that have found"},{"startTime":563.769,"endTime":567.529,"body":"wives or husbands in the new country, so"},{"startTime":567.529,"endTime":571.29,"body":"they have ended up settling there without that intention originally. And I've also"},{"startTime":571.29,"endTime":575.13,"body":"known them to bring their wives or husbands back to their own country,"},{"startTime":575.13,"endTime":578.915,"body":"which I'm sure was never necessarily on the cards. I think that's just the"},{"startTime":578.915,"endTime":582.755,"body":"luck of life sometimes. It can throw up anything at you. So, just trying to"},{"startTime":582.755,"endTime":586.355,"body":"predict it can be difficult, unless you've got some certain criteria,"},{"startTime":586.355,"endTime":589.815,"body":"such as a contract, or you've got certain life"},{"startTime":590.77,"endTime":594.21,"body":"goals that you want to achieve that take you back home and that you're just"},{"startTime":594.21,"endTime":597.57,"body":"going there for a short stint. So, I'm not sure if I answered your question"},{"startTime":597.57,"endTime":601.41,"body":"in a black-and-white way, but I tried to shade over it with some"},{"startTime":601.41,"endTime":605.175,"body":"grey. No. That's really"},{"startTime":605.175,"endTime":609.015,"body":"interesting. And I suppose where it's like a fixed corporate"},{"startTime":609.015,"endTime":612.375,"body":"assignment, and you're expecting it to last no more than two or three"},{"startTime":612.375,"endTime":615.82,"body":"years, how important is"},{"startTime":615.82,"endTime":619.18,"body":"it to have in mind, maybe when you're even starting"},{"startTime":619.18,"endTime":623.019,"body":"out, what happens when the opportunity comes to"},{"startTime":623.019,"endTime":626.48,"body":"an end? So, what happens at the end of that two- or three-year period?"},{"startTime":627.339,"endTime":630.985,"body":"Yeah. I think that's a really important aspect to really"},{"startTime":630.985,"endTime":634.764,"body":"consider before you move abroad because, especially as you"},{"startTime":635.305,"endTime":639.144,"body":"start preparing, you're preparing to go to that new culture, but actually knowing"},{"startTime":639.144,"endTime":642.584,"body":"what's going to happen when it finishes is also important. And I"},{"startTime":642.584,"endTime":646.07,"body":"think, as I say, I've got this nailed"},{"startTime":646.61,"endTime":650.45,"body":"down quite well in terms of just providing a bit of a vision to the"},{"startTime":650.45,"endTime":654.21,"body":"individual expatriates and what that looks like, but I think there's a lot of organisations"},{"startTime":654.21,"endTime":657.755,"body":"that certainly haven't considered the repatriation"},{"startTime":657.755,"endTime":661.515,"body":"phase as much as they should be doing. So, that often can have"},{"startTime":661.515,"endTime":665.355,"body":"a negative impact on the individual, especially as they start to get a bit"},{"startTime":665.355,"endTime":669.195,"body":"closer to that end point. What are they thinking?"},{"startTime":669.195,"endTime":672.97,"body":"Will my job be available when I come back? And you know, the logistical"},{"startTime":672.97,"endTime":676.569,"body":"aspects of moving your things back. Then, of course, you've found"},{"startTime":676.569,"endTime":680.41,"body":"and made friends in that new culture, so having to give them up"},{"startTime":680.41,"endTime":683.79,"body":"is also hard work. It's almost like when you're expatriating itself,"},{"startTime":684.089,"endTime":687.61,"body":"it's a difficult process. You're leaving your friends and"},{"startTime":687.985,"endTime":691.825,"body":"the familiar circumstances behind, and it's a big change. And so, that's"},{"startTime":691.825,"endTime":695.365,"body":"what organisations really need to do as much as possible to support"},{"startTime":695.505,"endTime":699.185,"body":"their expat employees to deal with that change as much"},{"startTime":699.185,"endTime":702.16,"body":"as possible and be able to navigate the"},{"startTime":702.62,"endTime":706.4,"body":"uncertainty around it. You know, providing a kind of plan"},{"startTime":706.86,"endTime":710.16,"body":"of re-onboarding, if you like, when they come back to the organisation,"},{"startTime":710.7,"endTime":714.285,"body":"also setting up their organisation for the right circumstances,"},{"startTime":714.584,"endTime":718.045,"body":"getting the employees that are in that home office to"},{"startTime":718.264,"endTime":722.024,"body":"embrace and understand that there are expats coming back. I'm not saying"},{"startTime":722.024,"endTime":725.785,"body":"a royal welcome, but just being on board with the idea"},{"startTime":725.785,"endTime":729.05,"body":"that they've gone abroad and"},{"startTime":729.05,"endTime":732.89,"body":"acquired new skills and knowledge, and they'll be keen to use this when"},{"startTime":732.89,"endTime":736.11,"body":"they come back to the organisation. So, kind of giving them opportunity to"},{"startTime":736.25,"endTime":739.69,"body":"use these skills and knowledge. I think on that point,"},{"startTime":739.69,"endTime":743.065,"body":"careers are a big source of anxiety"},{"startTime":743.065,"endTime":746.665,"body":"for people repatriating. And I did some research around"},{"startTime":746.665,"endTime":750.505,"body":"this, it's about not understanding what it's going to"},{"startTime":750.505,"endTime":753.485,"body":"be like when you come back, not having your knowledge and skills appreciated. And"},{"startTime":754.209,"endTime":758.05,"body":"sometimes maybe you're almost degraded because you've spent"},{"startTime":758.05,"endTime":761.73,"body":"time outside the country, you haven't been on the floor in that home"},{"startTime":761.73,"endTime":765.25,"body":"country office. So, you're kind of almost having to reacquire"},{"startTime":765.25,"endTime":768.875,"body":"the knowledge that you might've had before you left. So, again,"},{"startTime":768.875,"endTime":772.714,"body":"the organisation needs to support that as much as possible to"},{"startTime":772.714,"endTime":773.834,"body":"take away those concerns."},{"startTime":776.475,"endTime":780.235,"body":"And I guess there's things that individuals can do as well. So, if they know"},{"startTime":780.235,"endTime":783.89,"body":"that it's going to be, say, a two-year assignment, then they can make sure that"},{"startTime":783.89,"endTime":787.27,"body":"they continually touch base with wherever"},{"startTime":787.57,"endTime":791.41,"body":"they're going to be going back to. So, I don't know, even if it's just"},{"startTime":791.41,"endTime":794.77,"body":"picking up the phone and speaking to people every so often or just"},{"startTime":794.77,"endTime":798.515,"body":"sending an email, making sure that they're aware that you're still there,"},{"startTime":798.515,"endTime":802.035,"body":"you're still part of the team, and you're coming back and keeping up with what's"},{"startTime":802.035,"endTime":805.795,"body":"going on that way. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's crucial. I"},{"startTime":805.795,"endTime":809.435,"body":"mean, there's that saying that goes 'out of sight - out of minds', and I"},{"startTime":809.435,"endTime":813.1,"body":"think that does happen when you move away. Even"},{"startTime":813.14,"endTime":816.9,"body":"your friends and family, it feels like they've forgotten about you. Of course, you're"},{"startTime":816.9,"endTime":820.74,"body":"still in their mind, but because you're not there every day like"},{"startTime":820.74,"endTime":824.34,"body":"you perhaps were before, you're not necessarily in the loop"},{"startTime":824.34,"endTime":828.065,"body":"all the time. I think, from a social point of view, maybe with"},{"startTime":828.065,"endTime":830.785,"body":"your colleagues at the same time, when you do come back,"},{"startTime":830.785,"endTime":833.265,"body":"you're trying to pick up the"},{"startTime":833.265,"endTime":837.105,"body":"office anecdotes or what are the topics"},{"startTime":837.105,"endTime":840.64,"body":"being spoken about, it's quite a hard and disjointed"},{"startTime":840.64,"endTime":844.08,"body":"feeling when you've been out of the loop for a little while. It's like joining"},{"startTime":844.08,"endTime":847.68,"body":"a conversation midway through. You're trying to pick up what people are talking"},{"startTime":847.68,"endTime":850.88,"body":"about. And so, that's why it is important to make sure that you are constantly"},{"startTime":850.88,"endTime":854.575,"body":"in contact with those back home, either in the workplace"},{"startTime":854.795,"endTime":858.555,"body":"or with your friends and family, just to make sure that you haven't been forgotten"},{"startTime":858.555,"endTime":862.235,"body":"about. And there's almost an expectation that you're the one that reaches out"},{"startTime":862.235,"endTime":866.06,"body":"to them. I think that's what I've learned, that there's an"},{"startTime":866.06,"endTime":868.86,"body":"onus on you as the expat. You're the one that's left, you're the one that's"},{"startTime":868.86,"endTime":871.18,"body":"gone away, you need to be the one that makes the effort. And I think"},{"startTime":871.18,"endTime":874.3,"body":"for the expat, it's almost like the other perspective. Why"},{"startTime":874.3,"endTime":878.14,"body":"is nobody contacting me? Have they forgotten about me? You start feeling a bit"},{"startTime":878.14,"endTime":881.915,"body":"sorry for yourself. But I think from a non-selfish point of view, you"},{"startTime":881.915,"endTime":884.795,"body":"have to start reaching out to them. That's"},{"startTime":885.355,"endTime":889.115,"body":"s the expectation. So, I think that's important. I think the other thing"},{"startTime":889.115,"endTime":892.82,"body":"is, obviously, having those opportunities to fly back home. Going back to the example"},{"startTime":892.82,"endTime":896.58,"body":"I used earlier when I was in China during the pandemic, we weren't able"},{"startTime":896.58,"endTime":900.42,"body":"to leave. And I think that caused a lot of stress for expats out there."},{"startTime":900.42,"endTime":903.88,"body":"Just not having the option, missing out on things like weddings or"},{"startTime":904.02,"endTime":907.815,"body":"birthdays or big events that they needed to"},{"startTime":907.815,"endTime":911.415,"body":"attend, that really disconnected a lot of expats, and eventually,"},{"startTime":911.415,"endTime":914.575,"body":"that was the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of them. You"},{"startTime":914.575,"endTime":918.3,"body":"know, they had to repatriate. So, just having these opportunities to"},{"startTime":918.36,"endTime":922.2,"body":"fly back, and maybe the organisation, I don't know, provides the expats a few more"},{"startTime":922.2,"endTime":925.959,"body":"holidays to be able to do that. I'm not saying that should be the"},{"startTime":925.959,"endTime":929.74,"body":"answer to it, but just giving them the ability to come back a"},{"startTime":930.235,"endTime":934.075,"body":"bit more frequently can help them not just personally, but also in their careers,"},{"startTime":934.075,"endTime":937.835,"body":"just staying in the loop with what's happening in the home office about,"},{"startTime":937.835,"endTime":941.355,"body":"you know, the market that really supports them. So,"},{"startTime":941.355,"endTime":944.395,"body":"yeah, that's what I'd say for that one."},{"startTime":946.58,"endTime":950.279,"body":"Let's dig in a little bit more into the preparation."},{"startTime":950.82,"endTime":954.44,"body":"And I thought we might bring out my favourite avatar"},{"startTime":954.5,"endTime":957.64,"body":"family that I've used a few times on the podcast before."},{"startTime":958.195,"endTime":961.415,"body":"So, we've got Tom who's a lawyer in his late thirties,"},{"startTime":962.035,"endTime":965.714,"body":"his wife, Suzanne, and they've got"},{"startTime":965.714,"endTime":969.394,"body":"a young daughter, Julia. And I think her age might"},{"startTime":969.714,"endTime":973.52,"body":"change as we talk about the different scenarios, so"},{"startTime":973.52,"endTime":976.88,"body":"what sort of childcare provision they might be looking for when they"},{"startTime":976.88,"endTime":980.72,"body":"move. We're helping them with the things that"},{"startTime":980.72,"endTime":984.5,"body":"they might need to figure out. So, Tom has got an opportunity to"},{"startTime":984.72,"endTime":988.24,"body":"go to another office of his law firm in a different country,"},{"startTime":988.24,"endTime":991.985,"body":"and maybe it's a fixed two-year assignment."},{"startTime":992.365,"endTime":996.045,"body":"Now, you've rather helpfully got an acronym of the"},{"startTime":996.045,"endTime":999.884,"body":"preparation things to think about. So, I'd love it if we could maybe go through"},{"startTime":999.884,"endTime":1003.73,"body":"that. Yeah. Absolutely. So, I was looking at the research"},{"startTime":1003.73,"endTime":1007.49,"body":"about expat challenges and came up with this acronym, which spells out the"},{"startTime":1007.49,"endTime":1011.33,"body":"word FLAIR. And the idea is that if you accomplish all of these"},{"startTime":1011.33,"endTime":1014.95,"body":"challenges or overcome them, then you can expatriate with flair."},{"startTime":1015.01,"endTime":1018.255,"body":"So, just going through them one by one, if we start with the F, the"},{"startTime":1018.255,"endTime":1021.774,"body":"F is around Finances. So, obviously, there's a lot of"},{"startTime":1021.774,"endTime":1025.615,"body":"financial implications to moving abroad. You've got things like tax to deal with. You've"},{"startTime":1025.615,"endTime":1028.575,"body":"also got a need to have some kind of budget. If your company is not"},{"startTime":1028.575,"endTime":1032.42,"body":"providing it, you need a budget to be able to afford the"},{"startTime":1032.42,"endTime":1036.04,"body":"apartment or house that you're going to get when you move abroad. So, that's really"},{"startTime":1036.179,"endTime":1039.619,"body":"important, taking care of your finances when you do"},{"startTime":1039.619,"endTime":1043.38,"body":"move. The other aspect is the L, and the"},{"startTime":1043.38,"endTime":1046.895,"body":"L stands for Logistics. So, logistics can be anything from"},{"startTime":1046.895,"endTime":1050.655,"body":"moving and packing your boxes through to support and sourcing out"},{"startTime":1050.655,"endTime":1054.495,"body":"of the house when you get abroad. So, it's kind of that aspect around just"},{"startTime":1054.495,"endTime":1058.275,"body":"setting up things physically and making sure that everything's in"},{"startTime":1058.335,"endTime":1062.06,"body":"order in that sense. The next one is A, and A, I've called"},{"startTime":1062.06,"endTime":1065.42,"body":"Acquisition. And we talked about the"},{"startTime":1065.42,"endTime":1069.1,"body":"onboarding part before, and it's a really big part of the"},{"startTime":1069.1,"endTime":1072.94,"body":"expatriation process and quite stressful. And you will have to learn so"},{"startTime":1072.94,"endTime":1076.385,"body":"much in such a short space of time, whether it's the"},{"startTime":1076.385,"endTime":1080.145,"body":"culture, adjusting to the new culture, whether it's things"},{"startTime":1080.145,"endTime":1083.985,"body":"in the new job, the new role, the organisation, the language, and"},{"startTime":1083.985,"endTime":1087.205,"body":"then a lot of respects as well. I remember when I first arrived in China,"},{"startTime":1087.37,"endTime":1090.25,"body":"not being able to order any food,"},{"startTime":1090.73,"endTime":1094.49,"body":"because everything was in that local language, right, in Chinese,"},{"startTime":1094.49,"endTime":1098.33,"body":"so it became very, very challenging. So, trying to overcome a lot of"},{"startTime":1098.33,"endTime":1101.555,"body":"these learning acquisition aspects is"},{"startTime":1101.635,"endTime":1105.155,"body":"problematic. But if you can, then that's full"},{"startTime":1105.155,"endTime":1108.595,"body":"credit to your experience. The I is the Inner"},{"startTime":1108.595,"endTime":1112.435,"body":"emotions. So, of course, this is going to be a stressful period as"},{"startTime":1112.435,"endTime":1115.779,"body":"much as it is exciting. Some of this comes down to personality."},{"startTime":1116.0,"endTime":1119.299,"body":"So, again, in the research, they've shown that certain personalities"},{"startTime":1119.84,"endTime":1123.22,"body":"are better equipped for this expatriation experience."},{"startTime":1123.519,"endTime":1127.299,"body":"But without going too much into the detail, we've got a personality"},{"startTime":1127.36,"endTime":1131.054,"body":"trait called openness. So, that's someone who's very curious about the world,"},{"startTime":1131.294,"endTime":1135.054,"body":"wanting to experience new things, and quite"},{"startTime":1135.054,"endTime":1138.894,"body":"innovative as well in that nature. Versus some of the other end"},{"startTime":1138.894,"endTime":1142.575,"body":"of the scale who are a little bit, they like kind of their own ways."},{"startTime":1142.575,"endTime":1146.22,"body":"They know what they like. They like being comfortable in their own habits,"},{"startTime":1146.399,"endTime":1150.2,"body":"and a little bit rigid, but not in a negative sense, just at the"},{"startTime":1150.2,"endTime":1153.32,"body":"other end of the scale, I would say. So, obviously, if you look at this"},{"startTime":1153.32,"endTime":1156.878,"body":"personality trait, the ones that are a bit more open, a bit more curious, are"},{"startTime":1156.879,"endTime":1160.215,"body":"going to enjoy the experience probably a little bit more, maybe adapt"},{"startTime":1160.375,"endTime":1164.215,"body":"a little bit better. Having said that, there's perks, peaks and troughs to"},{"startTime":1164.215,"endTime":1167.815,"body":"some of these personality scales. So, it's not to say anybody that doesn't like"},{"startTime":1167.815,"endTime":1171.655,"body":"that, then they're not going to work out. But I guess you also"},{"startTime":1171.655,"endTime":1175.389,"body":"think people at the high openness end are the ones that are"},{"startTime":1175.389,"endTime":1177.834,"body":"going to be looking for these opportunities in the first place. But, yeah, there are"},{"startTime":1177.835,"endTime":1181.23,"body":"some personality aspects that can help with that. And then, just finding strategies to control"},{"startTime":1181.23,"endTime":1184.987,"body":"those inner emotions, that can be really helpful in getting you over the"},{"startTime":1185.465,"endTime":1189.245,"body":"line in terms of onboarding. And then, the last one is around"},{"startTime":1189.785,"endTime":1193.465,"body":"roles and relationships. So, it's kind of two things rolled up into one. In terms"},{"startTime":1193.465,"endTime":1197.304,"body":"of the role, you have to have a clear understanding of what"},{"startTime":1197.304,"endTime":1200.881,"body":"that role is. And some of what you'll find is that the job description doesn't"},{"startTime":1200.881,"endTime":1204.71,"body":"always match what the job is on the ground. I know that's true. But certainly,"},{"startTime":1204.71,"endTime":1208.47,"body":"once you've made a commitment to move abroad, it's harder just"},{"startTime":1208.47,"endTime":1212.23,"body":"to move back when you find out that the job's completely"},{"startTime":1212.23,"endTime":1215.895,"body":"different, especially if you've got all your family with you as well. So, understanding"},{"startTime":1215.895,"endTime":1219.655,"body":"the role as much as possible, it's going to"},{"startTime":1219.655,"endTime":1223.015,"body":"really help you understand the relationships, which is that"},{"startTime":1223.015,"endTime":1226.715,"body":"second part. So, relationships, meaning things like your colleagues, who"},{"startTime":1227.39,"endTime":1231.17,"body":"your managers are, maybe you're working in a multicultural environment now, you've got to"},{"startTime":1231.55,"endTime":1235.33,"body":"try and work on how you navigate different relationships with different cultures"},{"startTime":1235.71,"endTime":1239.25,"body":"and how you communicate effectively. Also, your family back home,"},{"startTime":1239.775,"endTime":1243.455,"body":"we're getting to the previous question, how do you keep in"},{"startTime":1243.455,"endTime":1246.335,"body":"contact with them and your friends. So, overcoming"},{"startTime":1247.054,"endTime":1250.895,"body":"all of these aspects is what's going to really help you to get that expatriation"},{"startTime":1250.895,"endTime":1253.535,"body":"success when you go abroad. Okay. Thank you for"},{"startTime":1254.799,"endTime":1258.32,"body":"setting that out. There's no way we're going to be able to go through every"},{"startTime":1258.32,"endTime":1262.08,"body":"aspect of each letter, but maybe let's touch on a few which might"},{"startTime":1262.08,"endTime":1265.46,"body":"leap out to people. So, on the finance side,"},{"startTime":1265.76,"endTime":1269.345,"body":"you mentioned relocation and, say this is"},{"startTime":1269.805,"endTime":1273.165,"body":"an internal company relocation, Tom has"},{"startTime":1273.165,"endTime":1276.865,"body":"been asked to go to another office"},{"startTime":1277.165,"endTime":1280.145,"body":"and work there for two years, what are some of the"},{"startTime":1280.539,"endTime":1283.98,"body":"things that Tom can ask for as part of"},{"startTime":1283.98,"endTime":1287.58,"body":"the relocation package? What are the kinds of"},{"startTime":1287.659,"endTime":1291.5,"body":"things that could be on the menu? Yeah. I mean, there's various"},{"startTime":1291.5,"endTime":1295.179,"body":"things. Again, it depends on the company and the size of the"},{"startTime":1295.179,"endTime":1298.215,"body":"budget they have, what they're willing to do. And that"},{"startTime":1298.274,"endTime":1301.575,"body":"really weighs in on the success of the expatriation"},{"startTime":1301.794,"endTime":1305.475,"body":"process a little bit as well. But if you were a global company, there might"},{"startTime":1305.475,"endTime":1309.315,"body":"be more perks to support expats moving abroad. So,"},{"startTime":1309.315,"endTime":1312.47,"body":"yeah, a couple of the ones, obviously, getting flights"},{"startTime":1312.47,"endTime":1316.09,"body":"is important to fly out somewhere."},{"startTime":1316.15,"endTime":1319.67,"body":"That's not true of all contracts. I've certainly seen contracts where you're"},{"startTime":1319.67,"endTime":1323.03,"body":"expected to pay for your own flights. In addition to that, you've got the things"},{"startTime":1323.03,"endTime":1326.635,"body":"that you're moving with. So, especially if"},{"startTime":1326.635,"endTime":1330.475,"body":"you've been in a stable home that you've got lots of stuff, and you"},{"startTime":1330.475,"endTime":1334.075,"body":"want to just pick that up and move it to another country, then"},{"startTime":1334.075,"endTime":1337.595,"body":"you have to negotiate with the company, whether they're going to be able to pay"},{"startTime":1337.595,"endTime":1341.12,"body":"for all of the boxes. Because the other end is, they're going to have to"},{"startTime":1341.12,"endTime":1344.399,"body":"bring it back at some point, potentially anyway. So, that's probably something"},{"startTime":1344.799,"endTime":1348.559,"body":"that weighs on their mind when they calculate the finances. So, how much stuff can"},{"startTime":1348.559,"endTime":1352.32,"body":"you bring aboard? What are the important things to take? In addition"},{"startTime":1352.32,"endTime":1355.795,"body":"to that, you've got things that could cover,"},{"startTime":1355.795,"endTime":1359.635,"body":"like medical insurance. I mean, that's the first very key, I think a lot"},{"startTime":1359.635,"endTime":1363.335,"body":"of packages look at providing medical insurance. I think that's also maybe"},{"startTime":1363.555,"endTime":1367.155,"body":"by employment law that they have to provide some of that. So, just making sure"},{"startTime":1367.155,"endTime":1370.93,"body":"you've got some of these insurances covered. I know some companies"},{"startTime":1370.93,"endTime":1374.39,"body":"that provide pet support. So, bringing your pets to"},{"startTime":1374.61,"endTime":1378.29,"body":"another country is something that can happen. I haven't"},{"startTime":1378.29,"endTime":1382.13,"body":"got many pets myself, but I know a lot of people can't bear to live"},{"startTime":1382.13,"endTime":1385.955,"body":"without their dogs or cats. So, that can almost be a deal breaker"},{"startTime":1385.955,"endTime":1389.635,"body":"for a lot of people. So, making sure that that's an option is"},{"startTime":1389.635,"endTime":1393.315,"body":"something that companies could look to do, and maybe that's what"},{"startTime":1393.315,"endTime":1396.93,"body":"Tom in this situation could try to negotiate. The other ones"},{"startTime":1396.93,"endTime":1400.69,"body":"could be potentially around school fees. I"},{"startTime":1400.69,"endTime":1404.29,"body":"know that we've talked about his daughter, Julia. School fees abroad"},{"startTime":1404.29,"endTime":1407.89,"body":"can be quite expensive, especially in a lot of these international schools. So, I"},{"startTime":1407.89,"endTime":1411.654,"body":"don't know how much a company will be willing to pay or cover"},{"startTime":1411.654,"endTime":1415.495,"body":"the school fees, but if there's any support for that, that's something, again, that"},{"startTime":1415.495,"endTime":1419.335,"body":"should be considered. And maybe that's where you start thinking about"},{"startTime":1419.335,"endTime":1422.81,"body":"the salary that you're getting when you move abroad because, if"},{"startTime":1422.81,"endTime":1426.25,"body":"they're not providing support in that, then it's going to come out of your salary."},{"startTime":1426.25,"endTime":1429.63,"body":"So, negotiating those types of aspects. And then maybe,"},{"startTime":1430.01,"endTime":1433.85,"body":"any travel that occurs, we see in the new"},{"startTime":1433.85,"endTime":1437.61,"body":"country, which also could be bonuses to travel to"},{"startTime":1437.61,"endTime":1441.264,"body":"different countries. I know some companies provide certain airfares"},{"startTime":1441.264,"endTime":1445.105,"body":"to different countries that can either be helpful for coming back"},{"startTime":1445.105,"endTime":1448.384,"body":"to your home country if you're making a home visit or just"},{"startTime":1448.384,"endTime":1452.179,"body":"if you go on holiday somewhere. I know in the UK,"},{"startTime":1452.179,"endTime":1455.94,"body":"sometimes we move out to Asia, it's quite an interesting move because"},{"startTime":1455.94,"endTime":1459.779,"body":"you've got all these Asian countries you've never necessarily had the"},{"startTime":1459.779,"endTime":1463.539,"body":"opportunity to visit before. Now, they're on your doorstep. So, you're quite"},{"startTime":1463.539,"endTime":1467.059,"body":"keen to go and explore all of these different countries. So, maybe that's another"},{"startTime":1467.059,"endTime":1470.635,"body":"perk that could be introduced. I don't"},{"startTime":1470.635,"endTime":1474.315,"body":"know if I've covered everything that you can think of. Let"},{"startTime":1474.315,"endTime":1477.755,"body":"me know, and see if I've had any contracts with that."},{"startTime":1478.795,"endTime":1482.475,"body":"The other one you've mentioned, which I definitely don't want to dwell"},{"startTime":1482.475,"endTime":1486.18,"body":"on, but I thought could be worth"},{"startTime":1486.18,"endTime":1489.94,"body":"bearing in mind is tax. My experience is"},{"startTime":1489.94,"endTime":1493.72,"body":"that no matter how simple your circumstances are,"},{"startTime":1494.26,"endTime":1497.765,"body":"once you start introducing two countries"},{"startTime":1498.065,"endTime":1500.465,"body":"into the equation, so maybe"},{"startTime":1500.465,"endTime":1504.305,"body":"Tom is still a tax resident in the"},{"startTime":1504.305,"endTime":1507.665,"body":"UK, and also he ends up being a tax resident for"},{"startTime":1507.665,"endTime":1511.45,"body":"two years in another country, it can"},{"startTime":1511.45,"endTime":1514.83,"body":"get really tricky figuring out where you're"},{"startTime":1515.37,"endTime":1519.07,"body":"supposed to file returns, on what you're supposed to pay tax and where."},{"startTime":1519.29,"endTime":1522.75,"body":"I mean, is it as complicated as I"},{"startTime":1522.81,"endTime":1526.395,"body":"think it is? And what can Tom do to get"},{"startTime":1526.395,"endTime":1530.075,"body":"on top of that and also not end up spending a fortune in"},{"startTime":1530.075,"endTime":1533.434,"body":"professional fees for a simple situation? Yeah."},{"startTime":1533.434,"endTime":1536.975,"body":"That's a good question. I haven't myself"},{"startTime":1537.59,"endTime":1541.049,"body":"had any sort of bad experiences in terms"},{"startTime":1541.429,"endTime":1545.13,"body":"of tax, having to get double"},{"startTime":1545.27,"endTime":1548.71,"body":"taxed or anything like that. I think there are professional advisors"},{"startTime":1548.71,"endTime":1552.535,"body":"out there, and I think some of them are not as expensive as"},{"startTime":1552.755,"endTime":1556.595,"body":"maybe we would think. So, reaching out to them, obviously, would be a good"},{"startTime":1556.595,"endTime":1560.115,"body":"place to start. I think it's sometimes just better to be safe than sorry. And"},{"startTime":1560.115,"endTime":1563.395,"body":"I think if you start that process early, I think even reaching out to them"},{"startTime":1563.395,"endTime":1567.21,"body":"before you move abroad would be a good point to work"},{"startTime":1567.21,"endTime":1571.05,"body":"out what's the cost-benefit to actually going abroad, and what"},{"startTime":1571.05,"endTime":1574.809,"body":"do I need to look out for? I think, certainly if you're planning to"},{"startTime":1574.809,"endTime":1578.505,"body":"come back to the UK quite regularly, that's a concern that you need"},{"startTime":1578.505,"endTime":1582.265,"body":"to think about. Because I think if you spend so many days in the UK"},{"startTime":1582.265,"endTime":1585.784,"body":"per year, that puts you in this bracket of potentially getting"},{"startTime":1585.784,"endTime":1589.465,"body":"double taxed. So, just getting clear on all of these aspects is"},{"startTime":1589.465,"endTime":1593.225,"body":"quite important as early as possible before you make the move. If you make the"},{"startTime":1593.225,"endTime":1596.37,"body":"move, then you try to work it from there. It can be a bit more"},{"startTime":1596.37,"endTime":1600.13,"body":"tricky. But yeah, I guess, just on this point,"},{"startTime":1600.13,"endTime":1603.57,"body":"I think transferring money, for instance, can be complicated"},{"startTime":1603.57,"endTime":1607.19,"body":"for certain countries. I know when I was in China, it was"},{"startTime":1607.404,"endTime":1609.885,"body":"a bit of a hassle. You had to go to the bank, you had to"},{"startTime":1609.885,"endTime":1613.085,"body":"provide lots of identity, you had to show that you're paying tax in that country,"},{"startTime":1613.085,"endTime":1615.965,"body":"you had all these forms that were in Chinese again."},{"startTime":1615.965,"endTime":1619.664,"body":"So, trying to negotiate with a bank"},{"startTime":1619.725,"endTime":1623.44,"body":"teller that only really spoke Chinese made this process quite drawn out."},{"startTime":1623.44,"endTime":1627.04,"body":"So, it was always a joke between the expats. You know, I've got to go"},{"startTime":1627.04,"endTime":1630.56,"body":"to the bank today, and it's going to be a good four hours I'm going"},{"startTime":1630.56,"endTime":1633.76,"body":"to spend in there just trying to transfer a bit of money back. So, yeah,"},{"startTime":1633.76,"endTime":1636.855,"body":"depending on the countries that you go to, that's also a consideration."},{"startTime":1636.995,"endTime":1640.835,"body":"You know, how are you going to transfer money back? What's your plan for that?"},{"startTime":1640.835,"endTime":1644.675,"body":"I know some companies that actually pay in UK Sterling, but for certain"},{"startTime":1644.675,"endTime":1648.515,"body":"employees that, obviously, depends on the contracts they've got, the situation,"},{"startTime":1648.515,"endTime":1652.21,"body":"the rim, but that might also deal with that tax"},{"startTime":1652.21,"endTime":1654.929,"body":"element as well. I'm not sure of the ins and outs of that, but that's"},{"startTime":1654.929,"endTime":1657.49,"body":"something that is certainly worth considering."},{"startTime":1659.25,"endTime":1662.95,"body":"And you touched on another aspect there, which is bureaucracy."},{"startTime":1663.09,"endTime":1666.445,"body":"So, just opening bank accounts, setting up"},{"startTime":1666.445,"endTime":1669.664,"body":"utilities, getting Internet. I know that some countries are more"},{"startTime":1669.885,"endTime":1673.645,"body":"bureaucratic than others. But do you have any kind of general tips just"},{"startTime":1673.645,"endTime":1677.35,"body":"for getting that kind of stuff, which seems like it should"},{"startTime":1677.35,"endTime":1680.79,"body":"be basic, but isn't always that basic getting all that set"},{"startTime":1680.79,"endTime":1684.57,"body":"up? Yeah. It's part of the merry-go-round of"},{"startTime":1685.03,"endTime":1688.87,"body":"expat life. It's one of the things that you encounter quite"},{"startTime":1688.87,"endTime":1691.77,"body":"early on because you're trying to set everything up at once, and"},{"startTime":1692.095,"endTime":1695.855,"body":"things are not quite as straightforward as you might expect. So, you"},{"startTime":1695.855,"endTime":1699.375,"body":"sort of have to be a little bit resilient and patient with the process. But"},{"startTime":1699.375,"endTime":1703.135,"body":"in terms of getting things sped up, or at least getting things as smooth as"},{"startTime":1703.135,"endTime":1706.929,"body":"possible, again, that relies on having somebody that's local"},{"startTime":1706.929,"endTime":1710.61,"body":"or at least very knowledgeable of that market to take you"},{"startTime":1710.61,"endTime":1714.37,"body":"through that process. An example, in the UAE,"},{"startTime":1714.37,"endTime":1717.75,"body":"you have to get what's called an Emirates ID card,"},{"startTime":1718.095,"endTime":1721.795,"body":"and you can only then rent somewhere to live once you've got that card."},{"startTime":1721.935,"endTime":1724.255,"body":"So, it was a little bit of a waiting game because you have to"},{"startTime":1724.255,"endTime":1728.095,"body":"patiently wait for it until you can actually find"},{"startTime":1728.095,"endTime":1731.94,"body":"somewhere to live. And obviously, you want to get somewhere to live pretty quickly, so"},{"startTime":1731.94,"endTime":1735.62,"body":"that you can get set up and get working and get adjusting"},{"startTime":1735.62,"endTime":1739.14,"body":"as quickly as possible. So, it's a little bit frustrating, you know, some of these"},{"startTime":1739.14,"endTime":1742.6,"body":"things are just a waiting game. But I think once you've got a good"},{"startTime":1742.74,"endTime":1746.535,"body":"HR adviser, or at least somebody that is there from the company to help"},{"startTime":1746.535,"endTime":1749.895,"body":"you, then that's pretty good in terms of"},{"startTime":1749.895,"endTime":1753.735,"body":"support. Trying to do this kind of stuff yourself is really"},{"startTime":1753.735,"endTime":1757.415,"body":"difficult, I will admit. Obviously, yeah, depending on the culture you've"},{"startTime":1757.415,"endTime":1761.115,"body":"gone through, but I would always advise getting someone to support you, because"},{"startTime":1761.15,"endTime":1764.99,"body":"I've tried that route as well, but it takes a lot"},{"startTime":1764.99,"endTime":1768.67,"body":"longer, and it frustrates you even more. So, trying to make your life as easy"},{"startTime":1768.67,"endTime":1772.43,"body":"as possible early on is a good thing to do. And finding somewhere to live."},{"startTime":1772.43,"endTime":1775.965,"body":"I mean, that's another key aspect, especially here where we've"},{"startTime":1775.965,"endTime":1779.325,"body":"got Tom, Suzanne, and Julia. So, they're a family"},{"startTime":1779.325,"endTime":1783.025,"body":"unit. And I mean, I guess, unless they have the opportunities"},{"startTime":1783.085,"endTime":1786.925,"body":"to fly out and start looking around a few properties before the"},{"startTime":1786.925,"endTime":1789.86,"body":"big move, then assuming"},{"startTime":1790.32,"endTime":1794.159,"body":"that a company doesn't already have something lined up, you know,"},{"startTime":1794.159,"endTime":1797.539,"body":"some kind of a corporate let, I mean, how do they figure out"},{"startTime":1798.24,"endTime":1801.905,"body":"where to live? I mean, what's a good area in the city they're moving"},{"startTime":1801.905,"endTime":1805.345,"body":"to? What's a bad area? What's a fair price for"},{"startTime":1805.345,"endTime":1808.145,"body":"properties? What's something that is going to suit them?"},{"startTime":1809.185,"endTime":1812.865,"body":"Yeah. That's another excellent question. My"},{"startTime":1812.865,"endTime":1816.28,"body":"experience kind of leans into the fandom. It's a bit of an experiment"},{"startTime":1816.66,"endTime":1820.5,"body":"when you're first arriving in another country. I think that the advice"},{"startTime":1820.5,"endTime":1823.86,"body":"I give is, obviously, trying to ask as many people as possible and"},{"startTime":1823.86,"endTime":1827.705,"body":"suggestions. That can be overwhelming in itself, because everyone's kind of got their"},{"startTime":1827.705,"endTime":1831.465,"body":"own biases about where you should live. But generally speaking,"},{"startTime":1831.465,"endTime":1835.145,"body":"they'll give you good advice on what to look out for, what not to look"},{"startTime":1835.145,"endTime":1838.845,"body":"out for. So, speaking to as many people as possible would be really helpful."},{"startTime":1839.145,"endTime":1842.684,"body":"I think in terms of directly speaking with HR, sometimes"},{"startTime":1843.679,"endTime":1847.36,"body":"they're helpful. They might even have an agent that's attached to their company that they"},{"startTime":1847.36,"endTime":1850.08,"body":"can send you to. But that's also a little bit of a danger, because if"},{"startTime":1850.08,"endTime":1853.6,"body":"you've only got one agent, and they sometimes know how much you're earning, they know"},{"startTime":1853.6,"endTime":1857.405,"body":"your salary, they're going to ramp up the price of the rents to"},{"startTime":1857.405,"endTime":1861.245,"body":"kind of match that. So, you have to be a little bit careful with HRs"},{"startTime":1861.245,"endTime":1865.085,"body":"that are just proposing one agent. And I guess doing a"},{"startTime":1865.085,"endTime":1868.765,"body":"little bit of market research, getting a feel for different houses, different"},{"startTime":1868.765,"endTime":1872.33,"body":"prices, and you start to get an understanding of the market. It's quite"},{"startTime":1872.33,"endTime":1875.53,"body":"difficult when you, obviously, first arrive. Because as I say, you're trying to get somewhere"},{"startTime":1875.53,"endTime":1878.99,"body":"pretty quickly, so you can start adjusting as much as possible."},{"startTime":1879.29,"endTime":1882.485,"body":"But if you can be a little bit more patient, you can then sort of"},{"startTime":1882.485,"endTime":1886.005,"body":"get a feel for what the market price is, get a feel for what are"},{"startTime":1886.005,"endTime":1888.885,"body":"the things that you'd like and don't like. And then, at that time, you've also"},{"startTime":1888.885,"endTime":1892.645,"body":"had a bit of time to experience the city, see where some nicer areas"},{"startTime":1892.645,"endTime":1896.165,"body":"are, some not so nice areas are. You also have to, obviously, take"},{"startTime":1896.165,"endTime":1899.89,"body":"a cab that commutes to work and how"},{"startTime":1899.89,"endTime":1903.01,"body":"are you going to get there. If you're getting a car or taxi, you know,"},{"startTime":1903.01,"endTime":1906.53,"body":"trying to work that bit out, but it does take a little bit of time"},{"startTime":1906.53,"endTime":1909.89,"body":"to experiment with some different places. I think when I was in Beijing, I"},{"startTime":1909.89,"endTime":1913.054,"body":"lived there six years, and I moved around quite"},{"startTime":1913.054,"endTime":1916.575,"body":"consistently, I was trying to do short-term contracts, so that was kind of my answer"},{"startTime":1916.575,"endTime":1919.775,"body":"to it. I was trying to find somewhere that we give you a short contract"},{"startTime":1919.775,"endTime":1923.294,"body":"there. That way, you know, if something went wrong, I could easily move. I was"},{"startTime":1923.294,"endTime":1926.65,"body":"trying to buy myself a little bit more time. But yeah, with short-term contracts, you"},{"startTime":1926.65,"endTime":1930.49,"body":"can pay a little bit more. Sometimes it reduces the choices that"},{"startTime":1930.49,"endTime":1933.93,"body":"you've got. So, it is a challenge, but,"},{"startTime":1934.17,"endTime":1937.45,"body":"yeah, with a bit of patience, a bit of time, you can find somewhere that's"},{"startTime":1937.45,"endTime":1939.69,"body":"nice. You can find the perfect one with persistence."},{"startTime":1941.085,"endTime":1944.605,"body":"Let's talk about the family aspects. So, Suzanne and"},{"startTime":1944.605,"endTime":1948.145,"body":"Julia. So, the move is motivated by"},{"startTime":1948.445,"endTime":1951.885,"body":"Tom's work and that opportunity. We can come on to"},{"startTime":1951.885,"endTime":1955.73,"body":"Suzanne in a sec. And obviously, if Julia"},{"startTime":1955.95,"endTime":1959.25,"body":"is below school age, then"},{"startTime":1959.789,"endTime":1963.57,"body":"Suzanne just can do the child care, that would be an option. But let's say"},{"startTime":1963.63,"endTime":1966.929,"body":"that she doesn't want to. So, if we start with preschool"},{"startTime":1967.15,"endTime":1970.695,"body":"childcare, what might that look like"},{"startTime":1970.695,"endTime":1974.455,"body":"in their situation? Yeah. It can"},{"startTime":1974.455,"endTime":1977.915,"body":"come in varying formats. I know, obviously, there are a lot of international schools"},{"startTime":1978.375,"endTime":1981.355,"body":"that might be able to cover preschool age. So,"},{"startTime":1981.655,"endTime":1985.35,"body":"that's one route to get your child into"},{"startTime":1985.35,"endTime":1989.11,"body":"it, especially if Tom, I'm assuming he's from the UK, that might be the best"},{"startTime":1989.11,"endTime":1992.33,"body":"initial option for him and his family to put his child into"},{"startTime":1992.39,"endTime":1996.23,"body":"an international school. They're likely to speak English, for instance, so they'll be able to"},{"startTime":1996.23,"endTime":1999.884,"body":"follow a UK curriculum at that point. If it's just something"},{"startTime":1999.884,"endTime":2003.725,"body":"to kind of child mind, if you like, there are"},{"startTime":2003.725,"endTime":2006.764,"body":"lots of other options. So, you've got private nanny-type"},{"startTime":2006.764,"endTime":2010.465,"body":"care, daycare centres. You've got nannies"},{"startTime":2010.86,"endTime":2014.62,"body":"themselves that can come to the house. I know a lot of people here, for"},{"startTime":2014.62,"endTime":2018.38,"body":"example, have a private nanny that comes in for the support and"},{"startTime":2018.38,"endTime":2022.22,"body":"looks after the child. And so, obviously, that can be stressful for parents because"},{"startTime":2022.22,"endTime":2025.695,"body":"they're looking for a nanny that they"},{"startTime":2025.695,"endTime":2028.975,"body":"can trust and go away to work and feel"},{"startTime":2028.975,"endTime":2032.654,"body":"secure in the knowledge that the nanny is looking after the child."},{"startTime":2032.654,"endTime":2036.414,"body":"And I know I've heard some stories of people installing cameras"},{"startTime":2036.414,"endTime":2039.909,"body":"all around their house just to make sure that the nanny's treating the baby"},{"startTime":2039.909,"endTime":2043.61,"body":"okay. But it can be"},{"startTime":2043.669,"endTime":2046.87,"body":"a bit of an anxious period of time for parents, but I think again, there's"},{"startTime":2046.87,"endTime":2050.485,"body":"lots of options, especially at that age, and it's about exploring something that makes"},{"startTime":2050.725,"endTime":2054.325,"body":"sense, I would say, to the"},{"startTime":2054.565,"endTime":2058.325,"body":"parents. Okay. And"},{"startTime":2058.325,"endTime":2061.625,"body":"if you're looking a bit older, let's say Julia is"},{"startTime":2062.005,"endTime":2065.625,"body":"seven, eight, nine, something like that, so school age, so you mentioned international"},{"startTime":2065.949,"endTime":2069.65,"body":"schools, presumably that's one possibility. Yeah, absolutely. International"},{"startTime":2069.71,"endTime":2073.469,"body":"school is a good possibility. I think that's one of the most common ones"},{"startTime":2073.469,"endTime":2077.15,"body":"that I'm aware of. I know a few people that"},{"startTime":2077.15,"endTime":2080.69,"body":"managed to send their child into a public system,"},{"startTime":2081.114,"endTime":2084.875,"body":"which is a little bit more challenging, because I think, depending on the country"},{"startTime":2084.875,"endTime":2088.335,"body":"that you're in, now, obviously, they're teaching in a different language."},{"startTime":2088.875,"endTime":2092.715,"body":"And I think it's a good cultural experience, for sure, for your kid. But"},{"startTime":2092.715,"endTime":2095.9,"body":"at the same time, it's probably quite hard for them, because"},{"startTime":2095.9,"endTime":2099.34,"body":"everybody around you speaking completely different languages, how do you"},{"startTime":2099.34,"endTime":2103.1,"body":"integrate? And I know some kids might be good at"},{"startTime":2103.1,"endTime":2106.86,"body":"socializing and embracing that. But I know there might be other"},{"startTime":2106.86,"endTime":2110.405,"body":"kids that will feel withdrawn and, obviously, no"},{"startTime":2110.405,"endTime":2114.164,"body":"parent wants to cause that emotional upset to"},{"startTime":2114.164,"endTime":2117.924,"body":"their children. So, international schools tend to be the"},{"startTime":2117.924,"endTime":2121.605,"body":"way forward with that. That's where I see most parents sending"},{"startTime":2121.605,"endTime":2125.19,"body":"their child. And what about Suzanne?"},{"startTime":2125.33,"endTime":2129.09,"body":"And as I say, this move has been motivated by Tom's"},{"startTime":2129.09,"endTime":2132.93,"body":"job. It might be that she doesn't need to work. But on the other"},{"startTime":2132.93,"endTime":2136.07,"body":"hand, especially if Julia is at school,"},{"startTime":2136.655,"endTime":2140.495,"body":"she's got to find ways to fill her days. So, what"},{"startTime":2140.495,"endTime":2144.255,"body":"might her options be? Yeah. Do you know what? This is like one of the"},{"startTime":2144.255,"endTime":2147.875,"body":"biggest challenges for the whole expatriation process, that"},{"startTime":2148.175,"endTime":2151.935,"body":"the spouse, either the husband or the wife, whoever is"},{"startTime":2151.935,"endTime":2155.69,"body":"not actually sponsored to do that move abroad,"},{"startTime":2155.75,"endTime":2159.51,"body":"is the one that's kind of left with having to change their career on"},{"startTime":2159.51,"endTime":2163.27,"body":"behalf of the other half. And obviously, if they've"},{"startTime":2163.27,"endTime":2167.109,"body":"got a child, maybe they're left with the childcare. Now, that's not a bad thing,"},{"startTime":2167.109,"endTime":2170.735,"body":"but maybe they're not used to that. And then, having to be a"},{"startTime":2170.735,"endTime":2174.095,"body":"stay-at-home parent the first time, it can be quite"},{"startTime":2174.095,"endTime":2177.855,"body":"a shock. And obviously, at the same time, I know they're not having"},{"startTime":2177.855,"endTime":2181.695,"body":"those opportunities to socialize as much, especially when they're first"},{"startTime":2181.695,"endTime":2185.13,"body":"setting out, they're going to find their own friends, find opportunities to"},{"startTime":2185.15,"endTime":2188.47,"body":"get out there and get out of the house, have a reason to get out"},{"startTime":2188.47,"endTime":2192.15,"body":"of the house. So, I know the spouse contributes a lot to"},{"startTime":2192.15,"endTime":2195.69,"body":"whether that expatriation process is successful. So, organisations"},{"startTime":2195.91,"endTime":2199.685,"body":"need to look at that and see what they can do to"},{"startTime":2199.685,"endTime":2203.285,"body":"provide support for the spouse. Whether that's setting up a community, for"},{"startTime":2203.285,"endTime":2207.065,"body":"example, that spouses can connect with them, or having"},{"startTime":2207.125,"endTime":2210.64,"body":"events that obviously the spouse can come or the"},{"startTime":2210.64,"endTime":2214.42,"body":"husband or wife to that, that can get them integrated into society"},{"startTime":2214.48,"endTime":2217.7,"body":"as much as possible. Because that ultimately reduces the"},{"startTime":2218.16,"endTime":2221.68,"body":"stress and the pressure on the individual that's been sponsored to"},{"startTime":2221.68,"endTime":2225.405,"body":"expatriate, because they're going to face a lot of pressure themselves, right? They've"},{"startTime":2225.405,"endTime":2229.005,"body":"lifted up their family"},{"startTime":2229.005,"endTime":2232.525,"body":"essentially from a stable life to come and live in a different country, and"},{"startTime":2232.525,"endTime":2236.045,"body":"they've got to make it work. And if you're facing all"},{"startTime":2236.045,"endTime":2239.75,"body":"of these challenges in the workplace, and you're also coming home to"},{"startTime":2239.75,"endTime":2243.51,"body":"challenges, it's going to be really stressful. So, finding ways"},{"startTime":2243.51,"endTime":2246.97,"body":"to support the spouse is really, really important. I think"},{"startTime":2247.349,"endTime":2250.71,"body":"for that spouse in terms of work,"},{"startTime":2250.71,"endTime":2254.255,"body":"there are solutions to it. I think they can find a"},{"startTime":2254.255,"endTime":2257.955,"body":"visa that suits them in terms of being able to"},{"startTime":2258.015,"endTime":2261.715,"body":"find work themselves. And especially if they're very career-motivated themselves, maybe that's"},{"startTime":2261.775,"endTime":2265.535,"body":"what they want to do. They want to find a job or find something"},{"startTime":2265.535,"endTime":2269.06,"body":"remote that they can start off with and perhaps work from"},{"startTime":2269.06,"endTime":2272.74,"body":"the UK and deal with it that way. But it's"},{"startTime":2272.74,"endTime":2276.42,"body":"trying to prepare all that ahead of time and anticipate"},{"startTime":2276.42,"endTime":2280.175,"body":"it as much as possible. So, yeah, different families face different"},{"startTime":2280.175,"endTime":2283.055,"body":"challenges. So, for Suzanne, it depends on"},{"startTime":2284.015,"endTime":2287.295,"body":"her circumstances and how well she's able to adapt. Yeah, that's"},{"startTime":2287.295,"endTime":2290.494,"body":"what I'd say. I've"},{"startTime":2292.119,"endTime":2295.64,"body":"gone through my mind, the film The Devil's Advocate,"},{"startTime":2295.64,"endTime":2298.839,"body":"which I don't know whether you have ever seen that, with Keanu"},{"startTime":2299.4,"endTime":2302.859,"body":"Reeves, Al Pacino, and Charlize Theron, where it"},{"startTime":2303.079,"endTime":2306.765,"body":"is not about going to another country, but it's about Keanu Reeves joining a law"},{"startTime":2306.765,"endTime":2310.225,"body":"firm in New York, and Charlize Theron, who has been a"},{"startTime":2310.525,"endTime":2314.285,"body":"high powered real estate agent, is suddenly left not knowing what"},{"startTime":2314.285,"endTime":2317.645,"body":"to do. And so, she gets in with all the other, in this case, wives"},{"startTime":2317.645,"endTime":2321.14,"body":"of the other lawyers, and basically, they just spend their time shopping, and it drives"},{"startTime":2321.14,"endTime":2324.9,"body":"her nearly crazy. So, I guess that's the thing that Suzanne's going to have to"},{"startTime":2324.9,"endTime":2328.74,"body":"have a good thinking, maybe get coaching herself"},{"startTime":2328.74,"endTime":2332.58,"body":"on what's going to work for her so that she is also"},{"startTime":2332.58,"endTime":2336.275,"body":"fulfilled. And as you say, I mean, it could be the"},{"startTime":2336.275,"endTime":2338.835,"body":"other way around. It could be Suzanne's moving for the job, and Tom's the one"},{"startTime":2338.835,"endTime":2342.675,"body":"who needs help with, whichever way it is. Yeah. I think,"},{"startTime":2342.675,"endTime":2346.435,"body":"in the research I've done over the last"},{"startTime":2346.435,"endTime":2350.21,"body":"few years around careers, I think careers have become very"},{"startTime":2350.21,"endTime":2353.97,"body":"central to our lives, in the sense that when we are introducing"},{"startTime":2353.97,"endTime":2357.81,"body":"ourselves, we introduce ourselves by our career. It's almost part of our"},{"startTime":2357.81,"endTime":2361.25,"body":"identity. So, to go from having a career"},{"startTime":2361.25,"endTime":2364.974,"body":"and then to not having anything can be quite emotionally"},{"startTime":2365.295,"endTime":2369.135,"body":"traumatizing to that individual. And of course, you"},{"startTime":2369.135,"endTime":2372.894,"body":"wanting to find something to keep your inner drive"},{"startTime":2372.894,"endTime":2376.575,"body":"going, so you might find yourself in a situation where that"},{"startTime":2376.575,"endTime":2380.41,"body":"inner drive burns out in a way. And that's, again, the danger of this"},{"startTime":2380.41,"endTime":2384.25,"body":"expatriation process. You don't want that to happen to either"},{"startTime":2384.25,"endTime":2388.01,"body":"you or the spouse, because that's when they'll start saying,"},{"startTime":2388.01,"endTime":2391.13,"body":"'Let's go back home.' So, it's about supporting"},{"startTime":2391.13,"endTime":2394.725,"body":"them as much as possible. Having said all that, I do know there"},{"startTime":2394.725,"endTime":2398.185,"body":"are wives and husbands that come out with their partners and"},{"startTime":2398.805,"endTime":2402.265,"body":"really enjoy the time abroad. They enjoy"},{"startTime":2402.325,"endTime":2405.845,"body":"the free time that they've got. So, it's experiencing new things, and"},{"startTime":2405.845,"endTime":2409.64,"body":"there's certainly plenty of things going on, especially in some of these cities throughout"},{"startTime":2409.64,"endTime":2413.24,"body":"the day. You've got yoga classes, you've got coffee meetups,"},{"startTime":2413.24,"endTime":2417.08,"body":"shopping that can take place, and things in the evening, you"},{"startTime":2417.08,"endTime":2420.855,"body":"know, salsa dancing, sports. There's plenty of ways to"},{"startTime":2420.855,"endTime":2424.135,"body":"keep yourself busy at the same time, if that's what you're looking for. I guess"},{"startTime":2424.135,"endTime":2427.975,"body":"that's ultimately what it is. It's kind of what your purpose is, what kind"},{"startTime":2427.975,"endTime":2431.175,"body":"of period in life you are, and what you're looking to do."},{"startTime":2431.95,"endTime":2435.31,"body":"Yeah. And I guess if you're moving somewhere where there is already a large"},{"startTime":2435.31,"endTime":2439.15,"body":"expatriate community, then you're not going to be the only one. There's going to"},{"startTime":2439.15,"endTime":2442.75,"body":"be lots of people around you from whom you can get support and ideas and"},{"startTime":2442.75,"endTime":2446.325,"body":"friendships. Yeah, absolutely. And jumping onto"},{"startTime":2446.325,"endTime":2450.025,"body":"the social media platforms, that's a good way to meet"},{"startTime":2450.165,"endTime":2453.845,"body":"like-minded people. I've always thought, when it comes to"},{"startTime":2453.845,"endTime":2457.685,"body":"meeting like-minded people, you gravitate towards people of"},{"startTime":2457.685,"endTime":2461.4,"body":"your nationality. So, for Brits, we're a little bit lucky in the sense"},{"startTime":2461.4,"endTime":2464.78,"body":"that there's a lot of Brits abroad. You can always go on Facebook, for example,"},{"startTime":2465.0,"endTime":2468.839,"body":"and search 'Brits Abroad Abu Dhabi', for instance, and quite a few"},{"startTime":2468.839,"endTime":2472.355,"body":"groups will pop up. And that's probably a good way to find people in"},{"startTime":2472.355,"endTime":2475.715,"body":"a similar boat to you. And again, having somebody in"},{"startTime":2475.715,"endTime":2479.395,"body":"a similar boat to you is really important because they express the same challenges and"},{"startTime":2479.395,"endTime":2483.155,"body":"empathize with your needs. The work"},{"startTime":2483.155,"endTime":2487.0,"body":"I do is based on that. I've"},{"startTime":2487.0,"endTime":2490.359,"body":"lived this life abroad, and so, when I speak to"},{"startTime":2490.359,"endTime":2493.96,"body":"my clients, I can empathize and understand exactly what they"},{"startTime":2493.96,"endTime":2497.339,"body":"mean when they talk about these challenges. We get strategies together"},{"startTime":2497.935,"endTime":2501.455,"body":"on how to overcome them. So, it's about"},{"startTime":2501.455,"endTime":2505.215,"body":"finding like-minded people, people who have lived that life, who know"},{"startTime":2505.215,"endTime":2508.595,"body":"what you're going through, and can reason with you about what's happening. It's important"},{"startTime":2508.655,"endTime":2511.855,"body":"to find your tribe in that sense. Have you"},{"startTime":2513.15,"endTime":2516.75,"body":"ever seen someone who's gone out for, say, a two-year period,"},{"startTime":2516.75,"endTime":2520.13,"body":"but who's made a concerted effort to go as native"},{"startTime":2520.43,"endTime":2524.03,"body":"as they can? So, learn the language, establish local friends,"},{"startTime":2524.03,"endTime":2527.445,"body":"maybe even send their kids to a local school where"},{"startTime":2527.665,"endTime":2530.305,"body":"they do teach in a different language. Yeah."},{"startTime":2530.305,"endTime":2534.065,"body":"I've met quite a few people who have done that. A"},{"startTime":2534.065,"endTime":2537.585,"body":"good friend of mine, after his first year in Beijing, moved down to"},{"startTime":2537.585,"endTime":2540.545,"body":"the south of China where it was really"},{"startTime":2540.545,"endTime":2544.15,"body":"native in the sense that there weren't many expats there. He"},{"startTime":2544.15,"endTime":2547.91,"body":"had this ambition to get fluent in his Chinese. And I think he accomplished"},{"startTime":2547.91,"endTime":2551.35,"body":"that and integrated with the culture quite well. You"},{"startTime":2551.35,"endTime":2555.11,"body":"have to be very proactive. You have to be quite brave to do that. You"},{"startTime":2555.11,"endTime":2558.935,"body":"have to be confident and comfortable in yourself to"},{"startTime":2558.935,"endTime":2562.715,"body":"be able to go off into the native country and"},{"startTime":2563.495,"endTime":2567.095,"body":"be able to make friends and deal with those awkward"},{"startTime":2567.095,"endTime":2570.7,"body":"situations that occur when you're misaligned"},{"startTime":2570.7,"endTime":2574.54,"body":"on cultures. Not that they're awkward in a bad way,"},{"startTime":2574.54,"endTime":2578.3,"body":"but it's not as naturally free-flowing as with someone from your own"},{"startTime":2578.3,"endTime":2581.66,"body":"culture. So, I know a few people who have done that. I know a family"},{"startTime":2581.66,"endTime":2585.474,"body":"when I was in Korea, the young one, I think he was about"},{"startTime":2585.474,"endTime":2588.755,"body":"three, went to a preschool in Korea."},{"startTime":2588.755,"endTime":2592.515,"body":"So, he couldn't speak English at that point,"},{"startTime":2592.515,"endTime":2595.815,"body":"but he started learning bilingually, Korean and English, which"},{"startTime":2596.035,"endTime":2599.44,"body":"was quite interesting to see because at dinner"},{"startTime":2599.44,"endTime":2603.2,"body":"he'd be saying one word in English, one"},{"startTime":2603.2,"endTime":2604.72,"body":"word in Korean. It was"},{"startTime":2604.72,"endTime":2608.48,"body":"almost like an experiment in"},{"startTime":2608.48,"endTime":2612.135,"body":"some way. And I think the ambition of the parents was to get"},{"startTime":2612.135,"endTime":2615.855,"body":"him speaking bilingually. I think that helped him to grow, learn,"},{"startTime":2615.855,"endTime":2619.535,"body":"and be educated. When you're that age, you're"},{"startTime":2619.535,"endTime":2622.895,"body":"naive to some of the steps and probably don't experience it as stressfully"},{"startTime":2622.895,"endTime":2626.72,"body":"as we would do as adults going forward. So,"},{"startTime":2626.72,"endTime":2630.559,"body":"yeah, I know a few people that have tried to go off the expat"},{"startTime":2630.559,"endTime":2634.319,"body":"trail and try to be a bit more native, try to make"},{"startTime":2634.319,"endTime":2637.76,"body":"friends consciously with the locals as much as possible."},{"startTime":2637.76,"endTime":2641.115,"body":"In my own experience,"},{"startTime":2641.115,"endTime":2644.955,"body":"I'm a bit middle of the ground in that sense. I don't just"},{"startTime":2644.955,"endTime":2648.795,"body":"stick to the expat community because I know people who do"},{"startTime":2648.795,"endTime":2652.635,"body":"that, they come abroad, and they're expecting everything to be like it was in"},{"startTime":2652.635,"endTime":2655.069,"body":"their home country. Whereas I'm a bit more willing to embrace the cultural"},{"startTime":2655.069,"endTime":2658.849,"body":"norms and what's happening and see it from that perspective."},{"startTime":2659.15,"endTime":2662.75,"body":"But I do enjoy being with the expat community because you can then have these"},{"startTime":2662.75,"endTime":2666.43,"body":"conversations with somebody that you can empathize with and understand and have a"},{"startTime":2666.43,"endTime":2669.296,"body":"joke with. They know the same TV shows that you've watched, the same football teams"},{"startTime":2669.297,"endTime":2671.525,"body":"that you support. They’ve had these experiences as well, these cultural challenges, shall we say,"},{"startTime":2671.525,"endTime":2674.725,"body":"moving to that culture, you can see the cultural differences combined and laugh and"},{"startTime":2674.725,"endTime":2678.485,"body":"joke about it. So,"},{"startTime":2678.485,"endTime":2680.885,"body":"I’ve always taken"},{"startTime":2680.885,"endTime":2683.68,"body":"a middle-of-the-ground approach, bit of both, integrate but"},{"startTime":2683.68,"endTime":2687.44,"body":"also keep with your own expat community. So,"},{"startTime":2687.44,"endTime":2689.28,"body":"we haven't had"},{"startTime":2689.28,"endTime":2693.119,"body":"time to go through all aspects"},{"startTime":2693.119,"endTime":2693.84,"body":"of your FLAIR"},{"startTime":2696.795,"endTime":2700.475,"body":"acronym. But what I would like to know is, maybe in relation"},{"startTime":2700.475,"endTime":2704.315,"body":"to anything that we haven't covered, what are maybe one or two of"},{"startTime":2704.315,"endTime":2707.695,"body":"the most common mistakes that you see"},{"startTime":2708.395,"endTime":2711.855,"body":"someone like Tom and his family make when they're"},{"startTime":2711.915,"endTime":2715.32,"body":"moving for a job? Or perhaps"},{"startTime":2715.32,"endTime":2718.94,"body":"what are one or two things that"},{"startTime":2719.08,"endTime":2722.38,"body":"they really should do, that quite a lot of times people don't"},{"startTime":2722.52,"endTime":2726.14,"body":"do? Yeah. The biggest one, I think, must be"},{"startTime":2726.2,"endTime":2729.935,"body":"the preparation aspects, just taking that time to prepare,"},{"startTime":2729.935,"endTime":2733.695,"body":"not just in terms of looking at a"},{"startTime":2733.695,"endTime":2737.215,"body":"culture book or a profile of that"},{"startTime":2737.215,"endTime":2740.895,"body":"country. It's a bit more about mental preparation and how you're"},{"startTime":2740.895,"endTime":2744.73,"body":"going to react to being in another country. And to a certain"},{"startTime":2744.73,"endTime":2748.41,"body":"extent, sometimes you don't know how you're going to react until you"},{"startTime":2748.41,"endTime":2751.69,"body":"actually get out there. So, a lot of senior leaders, for example, are often chosen"},{"startTime":2751.69,"endTime":2755.37,"body":"based on the skills they have. You know, they've performed very well in the companies"},{"startTime":2755.37,"endTime":2759.145,"body":"they're in, but that's been within their own culture. You take that person, you put"},{"startTime":2759.145,"endTime":2762.505,"body":"them in another country, they've got all these stressful aspects churning through"},{"startTime":2762.505,"endTime":2766.265,"body":"them. They're not going to perform as well, all the time anyway."},{"startTime":2766.265,"endTime":2768.745,"body":"So, it's a bit of a struggle for certain individuals."},{"startTime":2769.69,"endTime":2773.369,"body":"So, that preparation phase is really key, just trying to anticipate what are some"},{"startTime":2773.369,"endTime":2776.89,"body":"challenges I might face, what have I done previously that's been"},{"startTime":2776.89,"endTime":2780.329,"body":"a challenge, have I been on holiday, for instance, and"},{"startTime":2780.329,"endTime":2784.01,"body":"found the food in the hotel wasn't quite what I"},{"startTime":2784.01,"endTime":2787.305,"body":"was expecting? You know, how can I then navigate around that challenge? Do I need"},{"startTime":2787.305,"endTime":2790.984,"body":"to pack some other ingredients or foods? You know, what am"},{"startTime":2790.984,"endTime":2794.185,"body":"I going to miss when I go abroad? The other thing was,"},{"startTime":2794.185,"endTime":2797.88,"body":"financially, I think you have to be in a good stable"},{"startTime":2797.88,"endTime":2801.48,"body":"position going abroad as well. When I went to China, I wasn't necessarily in"},{"startTime":2801.48,"endTime":2805.24,"body":"that position because I was paying off masses, and I went out there"},{"startTime":2805.24,"endTime":2808.825,"body":"thinking, wow, I'll start earning some money pretty quickly and then"},{"startTime":2808.984,"endTime":2812.744,"body":"be able to pay for everything and live a normal"},{"startTime":2812.744,"endTime":2816.265,"body":"life. However, when I did get out there, I didn't expect the five months of"},{"startTime":2816.265,"endTime":2820.105,"body":"rent I needed to pay upfront with an extra month for the"},{"startTime":2820.105,"endTime":2822.984,"body":"agency fee. So, you're almost putting six months of rent away in your first"},{"startTime":2822.984,"endTime":2826.43,"body":"month. Had I known that previously,"},{"startTime":2827.15,"endTime":2830.99,"body":"I would have saved up a little bit more, and then, you know,"},{"startTime":2830.99,"endTime":2834.59,"body":"I had to live hand-to-mouth for a few weeks while I waited for my salary"},{"startTime":2834.59,"endTime":2837.95,"body":"package. So, yeah, the preparation phase"},{"startTime":2837.95,"endTime":2841.734,"body":"is a big one. I think the other one is relationships."},{"startTime":2841.734,"endTime":2845.575,"body":"So, yeah, relationships are key to life anyway, right? Key to the happiness of life"},{"startTime":2846.455,"endTime":2850.215,"body":"and being fulfilled. So, just maintaining those relationships you've got back"},{"startTime":2850.215,"endTime":2853.93,"body":"home, maintaining the friendships that you've got as best as possible, but also"},{"startTime":2853.93,"endTime":2857.29,"body":"being willing to meet"},{"startTime":2857.29,"endTime":2861.13,"body":"new people. I mean, that's one of the reasons"},{"startTime":2861.13,"endTime":2864.73,"body":"you go abroad, to meet new people, meet people from different cultures, and just being"},{"startTime":2864.73,"endTime":2865.85,"body":"willing to embrace that as much as possible is something that a family needs to"},{"startTime":2865.85,"endTime":2869.415,"body":"embrace, especially if they're moving just the"},{"startTime":2869.415,"endTime":2872.775,"body":"three of them, and they need to find social connections, find things"},{"startTime":2872.775,"endTime":2876.615,"body":"outside of work. Also, for the person that's been sponsored to move"},{"startTime":2876.615,"endTime":2880.055,"body":"out there, get along with your colleagues, try to"},{"startTime":2880.055,"endTime":2883.69,"body":"find out as much as possible about them, try to understand"},{"startTime":2883.69,"endTime":2886.81,"body":"their cultures, where they’ve come from, what brought them to that country. You know, if"},{"startTime":2886.81,"endTime":2890.57,"body":"you're working with other expats, what are their motivations? What are their communication"},{"startTime":2890.57,"endTime":2892.735,"body":"styles? There's so many things that you have to try and navigate through, but doing"},{"startTime":2892.736,"endTime":2896.09,"body":"as much as possible, being as proactive as possible is really important. Yeah, one"},{"startTime":2896.09,"endTime":2899.705,"body":"of my favourite books is by"},{"startTime":2899.705,"endTime":2903.545,"body":"Stephen Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and rule number one is about"},{"startTime":2903.545,"endTime":2907.385,"body":"being proactive. And I try to live by that mantra, especially when moving abroad,"},{"startTime":2907.385,"endTime":2910.985,"body":"being proactive about relationships, trying to meet as many people as possible. So,"},{"startTime":2910.985,"endTime":2914.72,"body":"those are the two keywords that I can think of. I think the other"},{"startTime":2914.72,"endTime":2918.4,"body":"one, this is a slightly philosophical one, but in the sense that you try"},{"startTime":2918.4,"endTime":2922.16,"body":"to learn as much as you can from the experience. You only live once,"},{"startTime":2922.16,"endTime":2925.7,"body":"and while that sounds pessimistic, having these"},{"startTime":2925.92,"endTime":2928.775,"body":"opportunities to move abroad and get to see our life through different lenses is something"},{"startTime":2928.775,"endTime":2932.295,"body":"not everybody experiences. You know, because everyone is used to living in"},{"startTime":2932.295,"endTime":2935.735,"body":"their own country, they never get an"},{"startTime":2935.735,"endTime":2939.255,"body":"opportunity to see what it's like to live in"},{"startTime":2939.255,"endTime":2942.52,"body":"a different way. And I"},{"startTime":2942.52,"endTime":2946.28,"body":"know you can go on holiday to countries and experience it like that"},{"startTime":2946.28,"endTime":2949.64,"body":"for a couple of weeks, but it's not the same as living somewhere, having to"},{"startTime":2949.64,"endTime":2952.28,"body":"culturally adapt to a different place. So, just appreciating that as much as possible and"},{"startTime":2952.28,"endTime":2956.005,"body":"learning from that about yourself and about the way you want to"},{"startTime":2956.005,"endTime":2959.125,"body":"live going ahead, I think, is really important, and it puts you in good"},{"startTime":2959.445,"endTime":2963.204,"body":"stead going forward. So, you mentioned the Stephen"},{"startTime":2973.77,"endTime":2977.549,"body":"Covey book. Are there any other resources that people could check out"},{"startTime":2977.69,"endTime":2981.369,"body":"if they want to find out more about any aspect of what we've"},{"startTime":2981.369,"endTime":2985.025,"body":"talked about? Well, one big one is, one resource I really"},{"startTime":2986.145,"endTime":2989.745,"body":"like is called The Culture Map by Erin Meyer. It’s a"},{"startTime":2989.745,"endTime":2993.425,"body":"book I read several years ago, and it's based on some research"},{"startTime":2993.425,"endTime":2995.905,"body":"around culture and cultural differences. It really"},{"startTime":2995.905,"endTime":2999.68,"body":"plans out these different constructs of culture on"},{"startTime":2999.68,"endTime":3003.44,"body":"eight different continuums and measures how different"},{"startTime":3003.44,"endTime":3007.28,"body":"countries land on these continuums. So, it might be communication, for"},{"startTime":3007.28,"endTime":3011.035,"body":"example, where the Brits land in comparison to the US, in"},{"startTime":3011.035,"endTime":3014.795,"body":"comparison to those in China. And it explains a lot"},{"startTime":3014.795,"endTime":3018.555,"body":"of the issues you have when you move abroad and try to"},{"startTime":3018.555,"endTime":3022.395,"body":"communicate in a multicultural team. How do you talk on the"},{"startTime":3022.395,"endTime":3025.73,"body":"same page, and how is everybody getting misaligned with what they’re saying?"},{"startTime":3025.73,"endTime":3029.569,"body":"It explains how to go about adapting the way"},{"startTime":3029.569,"endTime":3033.25,"body":"you communicate to solve some of these issues."},{"startTime":3033.25,"endTime":3037.01,"body":"It talks about various different things. I just think it's a really cool book"},{"startTime":3037.01,"endTime":3040.585,"body":"in terms of understanding cultures and how they're different, and especially if you’ve"},{"startTime":3040.585,"endTime":3044.265,"body":"lived somewhere else, you can sit and start making"},{"startTime":3044.265,"endTime":3047.465,"body":"sense of a lot of things you play back in your mind. That’s why I"},{"startTime":3047.465,"endTime":3051.081,"body":"really enjoyed reading that book. The other one, not to give too many extra resources,"},{"startTime":3051.081,"endTime":3054.93,"body":"but he other one is the High Performance"},{"startTime":3054.93,"endTime":3058.61,"body":"podcast. I started listening to that during the pandemic, and it"},{"startTime":3058.61,"endTime":3062.369,"body":"was a huge confidence builder. I just enjoyed learning"},{"startTime":3062.369,"endTime":3065.67,"body":"about what high performance meant"},{"startTime":3066.305,"endTime":3070.065,"body":"for other people, for celebrities, for sportspeople, and what I"},{"startTime":3070.065,"endTime":3073.505,"body":"could take from that to apply to my own life to help me"},{"startTime":3073.505,"endTime":3077.345,"body":"at work and in the workplace. I often feel like we’re sometimes sportspeople trying to"},{"startTime":3077.345,"endTime":3081.19,"body":"perform as best as possible to drive the company forward. So,"},{"startTime":3081.19,"endTime":3084.79,"body":"I think that’s something I really took away from that"},{"startTime":3084.79,"endTime":3088.55,"body":"podcast. So, they're two big ones, I'll leave you with"},{"startTime":3088.55,"endTime":3089.91,"body":"two, and yeah, hopefully you enjoy them."},{"startTime":3093.285,"endTime":3097.045,"body":"Where would you like to send people if they want to find you? Yeah,"},{"startTime":3097.045,"endTime":3099.925,"body":"sure. So, if you want to find out a little bit more about what I"},{"startTime":3099.925,"endTime":3103.525,"body":"do, I've got my LinkedIn page. You can follow me at Nathan Cornwell. I've"},{"startTime":3103.525,"endTime":3107.369,"body":"also got my website, which is nathancornwellconsulting.com. You"},{"startTime":3107.369,"endTime":3110.569,"body":"can find out a bit more about the services I offer and also a little"},{"startTime":3110.569,"endTime":3114.25,"body":"bit more about me. And feel free to take my email of that"},{"startTime":3114.25,"endTime":3118.089,"body":"website, which is nathan@nathancornwellconsulting.com. If you want to reach out,"},{"startTime":3118.089,"endTime":3120.99,"body":"send me a message. I'm more than happy to have a conversation."},{"startTime":3122.405,"endTime":3125.285,"body":"I'm always doing research about expats, so if there are any expats out there that"},{"startTime":3125.285,"endTime":3128.645,"body":"want to get in touch and help me understand more about what it's like to"},{"startTime":3128.645,"endTime":3132.165,"body":"be an expat and what are the challenges they face, I’d really love to hear"},{"startTime":3132.165,"endTime":3135.285,"body":"from you. So, yeah, that'd be the best way to reach out."},{"startTime":3136.619,"endTime":3140.38,"body":"Awesome. Well, Nathan, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your"},{"startTime":3140.38,"endTime":3140.88,"body":"knowledge."},{"startTime":3184.724,"endTime":3188.565,"body":"Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it and really enjoyed the conversation,"},{"startTime":3188.565,"endTime":3190.565,"body":"Jeremy. So, yeah, looking forward to continuing."},{"startTime":3239.205,"endTime":3241.465,"body":"Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Nathan Cornwall. What was clear from the conversation"},{"startTime":3241.465,"endTime":3244.587,"body":"with Nathan is that there's a lot to think about, and we probably tend to"},{"startTime":3244.588,"endTime":3246.825,"body":"focus on particular things at the expense of others. I know that my mind would"},{"startTime":3246.965,"endTime":3249.765,"body":"probably immediately turn to some of the very"},{"startTime":3249.765,"endTime":3253.465,"body":"practical things, like opening bank accounts and"},{"startTime":3253.8,"endTime":3255.56,"body":"setting up utilities and that kind of thing, and I probably wouldn't think all that"},{"startTime":3255.56,"endTime":3259.32,"body":"much necessarily about, say, social"},{"startTime":3259.32,"endTime":3262.62,"body":"life until later on in the journey."},{"startTime":3262.62,"endTime":3266.46,"body":"But I also like the fact that Nathan highlighted"},{"startTime":3266.6,"endTime":3270.095,"body":"the importance of openness and"},{"startTime":3270.095,"endTime":3273.695,"body":"curiosity. There's that word again, curiosity. I think that's my word of the"},{"startTime":3273.695,"endTime":3277.455,"body":"year. For this kind of experience to work,"},{"startTime":3277.455,"endTime":3280.975,"body":"you've got to be open to possibility"},{"startTime":3280.975,"endTime":3284.76,"body":"and willing to try things out. Sure, there's"},{"startTime":3284.76,"endTime":3195.045,"body":"lots to organize; sure, there are lots of things to do. But by getting out"},{"startTime":3195.045,"endTime":3198.18,"body":"there and having a go rather than worrying about what to"},{"startTime":3198.66,"endTime":3202.359,"body":"do, that's going to be the way to make this enjoyable and"},{"startTime":3202.5,"endTime":3206.099,"body":"successful. Show notes as usual are on the website at changeworklife.com/191. That's changeworklife.com/191."},{"startTime":3206.099,"endTime":3209.54,"body":"And we're into the 190s, which"},{"startTime":3209.54,"endTime":3213.255,"body":"means episode 200 is not that far away."},{"startTime":3213.255,"endTime":3217.015,"body":"And I'd really like"},{"startTime":3217.015,"endTime":3220.615,"body":"to design episode 200 with your help. So, tell"},{"startTime":3220.615,"endTime":3223.994,"body":"me, what ways do you think that I should mark"},{"startTime":3224.295,"endTime":3227.99,"body":"the occasion of 200 episodes? I'd love to have your ideas."},{"startTime":3227.99,"endTime":3231.45,"body":"So, drop me a line using the contact form"},{"startTime":3231.75,"endTime":3235.19,"body":"on the website, changeworklife.com/contact. Or, if you're subscribed to my email list, you can always"},{"startTime":3235.19,"endTime":3152.234,"body":"just reply to one of those emails. Let me know what your ideas are for"},{"startTime":3152.234,"endTime":3155.674,"body":"me to celebrate reaching 200 episodes. In"},{"startTime":3155.674,"endTime":3159.194,"body":"the meantime, we've got a really interesting episode coming up for you in two"},{"startTime":3159.194,"endTime":3163.035,"body":"weeks' time. Earlier this year, I did a course all around neurodiversity"},{"startTime":3163.035,"endTime":3166.795,"body":"in coaching, which made me realize just how little I know about neurodiversity, and"},{"startTime":3166.795,"endTime":3169.138,"body":"that's the subject we're going to be exploring in two weeks' time. If you work"},{"startTime":3169.138,"endTime":3172.47,"body":"anywhere with more than twenty people, then there is a very good chance that at"},{"startTime":3172.47,"endTime":3175.83,"body":"least one of your number has some kind of neurodiversity. So,"},{"startTime":3176.05,"endTime":3178.93,"body":"the next episode is going to be very informative and, I think, very practical. So,"},{"startTime":3178.93,"endTime":3181.748,"body":"make sure you have subscribed to the podcast so you don't miss it, and I"},{"startTime":3181.749,"endTime":3184.724,"body":"can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye."}]}