{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.08,"endTime":3.679,"body":"What's it really like to work for a start-up? Is it all"},{"startTime":3.679,"endTime":7.52,"body":"chaos? Is it inherently more risky than working for"},{"startTime":7.52,"endTime":11.04,"body":"a large established corporate? What are the benefits, and what are the"},{"startTime":11.04,"endTime":14.515,"body":"downsides? That's what we're going to be talking about in this week's episode."},{"startTime":14.735,"endTime":17.315,"body":"I'm Jeremy Cline and this is Change Work Life."},{"startTime":32.91,"endTime":36.75,"body":"Hello and welcome to Change Work Life, the show that's all about beating the Sunday"},{"startTime":36.75,"endTime":40.43,"body":"evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know how you can enjoy"},{"startTime":40.43,"endTime":44.055,"body":"a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right place. When you"},{"startTime":44.055,"endTime":47.895,"body":"think about start-ups, what images come to mind? Is it"},{"startTime":47.895,"endTime":51.735,"body":"a quirky brightly coloured open plan office in a hipster part of"},{"startTime":51.735,"endTime":55.355,"body":"town with beers in the fridge and a slightly chaotic atmosphere?"},{"startTime":55.91,"endTime":59.35,"body":"What's it really like to work in a start-up, and how do you know if"},{"startTime":59.35,"endTime":62.95,"body":"it's right for you? My guest this week is Steve Grace who's the"},{"startTime":62.95,"endTime":66.63,"body":"founder and CEO of The Nudge Group, which specializes in"},{"startTime":66.63,"endTime":70.005,"body":"connecting start-ups and scale-ups with world-class talent."},{"startTime":70.244,"endTime":74.005,"body":"Steve, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. I've been looking"},{"startTime":74.005,"endTime":77.765,"body":"forward to this. So, Steve, why are we talking to you? What's your background? What"},{"startTime":77.765,"endTime":81.284,"body":"makes you the expert on start-ups and scale-ups? I'm"},{"startTime":81.284,"endTime":85.03,"body":"sitting here embedded, actually not tonight because they've all gone home, but I'm"},{"startTime":85.03,"endTime":88.71,"body":"being embedded in the start-up ecosystem of Australia, I"},{"startTime":88.71,"endTime":92.469,"body":"guess. I think there's a couple of things that would probably be relevant."},{"startTime":92.469,"endTime":96.07,"body":"One, I've got four or five companies I've"},{"startTime":96.07,"endTime":99.545,"body":"started now. So, I've got five of my own start-ups, although I've only got four"},{"startTime":99.545,"endTime":102.905,"body":"that are running now, and I've sold the others. But my"},{"startTime":102.905,"endTime":106.424,"body":"latest, I guess, venture, Nudge, is"},{"startTime":106.424,"endTime":110.185,"body":"totally immersed in start-ups, not just here in Australia, but also globally. So,"},{"startTime":110.185,"endTime":113.065,"body":"we help them with all kinds of things. And we've worked now in the last"},{"startTime":113.065,"endTime":116.86,"body":"five years with over 400 start-ups, which is nuts. Right? And they vary"},{"startTime":116.86,"endTime":120.64,"body":"in where they are in the life cycle. Some are pre-seeds,"},{"startTime":120.7,"endTime":123.58,"body":"some are seeds. Well, we can talk about these terms later. Some are Series A,"},{"startTime":123.58,"endTime":127.259,"body":"B, C, D. Some have grown beyond that. Some are even in inception and in"},{"startTime":127.259,"endTime":130.655,"body":"people's minds. And we work with incubators, and we work with"},{"startTime":130.655,"endTime":134.254,"body":"co-working spaces, and we work with VC funds and private equity. So, I"},{"startTime":134.254,"endTime":138.034,"body":"think I've just, over that period of time, particularly the last five years,"},{"startTime":138.174,"endTime":141.935,"body":"having worked quite closely with over 400, experienced just about every"},{"startTime":141.935,"endTime":145.43,"body":"kind of different start-up there is. Because much like any"},{"startTime":145.43,"endTime":149.11,"body":"industry, you know, you could say, what's it like to work in a recruitment company?"},{"startTime":149.11,"endTime":152.069,"body":"Depends on the recruitment company. What's it like to work in a start-up? It depends"},{"startTime":152.069,"endTime":155.45,"body":"very much on the start-up and where they are. So, hopefully,"},{"startTime":155.83,"endTime":159.445,"body":"with all that experience, I've got some knowledge in there. Yeah. I think you've just"},{"startTime":159.445,"endTime":163.045,"body":"about established your credentials. All right, so we'll come to talk"},{"startTime":163.045,"endTime":166.565,"body":"about some of those terms that you've just mentioned in a minute."},{"startTime":166.565,"endTime":170.085,"body":"But what is it that makes a start-up versus"},{"startTime":170.085,"endTime":173.64,"body":"something that isn't a start-up? You know, I'm kind of thinking that there are lots"},{"startTime":173.64,"endTime":177.4,"body":"of small companies out there which may have been running for 20 years. What"},{"startTime":177.4,"endTime":181.159,"body":"is it that makes a start-up a start-up? It's a really good"},{"startTime":181.159,"endTime":184.485,"body":"question. I've been asked that a couple of times, actually. I think"},{"startTime":184.865,"endTime":188.705,"body":"a small business that is established, that is most likely profitable and sustaining"},{"startTime":188.705,"endTime":192.145,"body":"on itself, that has no desire to be any bigger is a small"},{"startTime":192.145,"endTime":195.525,"body":"business. A start-up is essentially an idea."},{"startTime":196.41,"endTime":200.09,"body":"And in my definition, a start-up is something"},{"startTime":200.09,"endTime":203.93,"body":"that wants to become a lot bigger. There is a desire there to grow. There's"},{"startTime":203.93,"endTime":207.45,"body":"a desire there to dominate a market in a region, such as"},{"startTime":207.45,"endTime":210.81,"body":"Australia. There's a desire there to be a global business. There's a desire there to"},{"startTime":210.81,"endTime":214.444,"body":"be the first to do something. You know? Whereas a small business is usually a"},{"startTime":214.444,"endTime":217.965,"body":"business that already exists in numbers of other forms, and"},{"startTime":217.965,"endTime":221.805,"body":"someone's grown a business to the size that they're comfortable with. And it's more so"},{"startTime":221.805,"endTime":225.485,"body":"a lifestyle business than it is growing into something bigger, I guess. That's"},{"startTime":225.485,"endTime":228.89,"body":"how I would define the difference. And then, obviously, a scale-up is a different thing"},{"startTime":228.89,"endTime":232.35,"body":"as well. That's an even more difficult question. Okay."},{"startTime":232.73,"endTime":236.41,"body":"So, there's a desire on whoever's founding"},{"startTime":236.41,"endTime":240.105,"body":"the start-up to create this big thing."},{"startTime":240.105,"endTime":243.625,"body":"They've got their eye on some kind of domination, whether it's work"},{"startTime":243.625,"endTime":246.845,"body":"domination or sector domination or something along those lines."},{"startTime":247.385,"endTime":251.225,"body":"Yeah, I think so. And I think, if you look at the popular view of"},{"startTime":251.225,"endTime":255.069,"body":"the start-up, it's usually something that is backed by a venture fund. So, it's"},{"startTime":255.069,"endTime":258.51,"body":"a non-profitable business that requires people to invest in"},{"startTime":258.51,"endTime":262.21,"body":"it to get it to a point where, one, it's either sellable,"},{"startTime":262.27,"endTime":265.87,"body":"so it can become part of a larger entity where it doesn't matter whether it's"},{"startTime":265.87,"endTime":269.695,"body":"profitable because it's adding value, or two, it becomes profitable, gets listed on the"},{"startTime":269.695,"endTime":273.315,"body":"stock exchange or something like that. And that journey can be quite long."},{"startTime":273.775,"endTime":277.235,"body":"Is the motivation for founding a start-up"},{"startTime":277.535,"endTime":281.23,"body":"always some kind of an exit? Definitely not. I"},{"startTime":281.23,"endTime":284.91,"body":"think if you listen to any podcast on start-ups, and"},{"startTime":284.91,"endTime":288.75,"body":"you listen to any successful founder advising potential"},{"startTime":288.75,"endTime":292.59,"body":"founders, they'll always tell you that it has to be about solving"},{"startTime":292.59,"endTime":296.335,"body":"a problem. It's not about money. It's not about an exit. It's not"},{"startTime":296.335,"endTime":300.095,"body":"about lifestyle. If you want to succeed, and obviously, we know that"},{"startTime":300.095,"endTime":303.875,"body":"there's a very high failure rate in start-ups, although that is inflated,"},{"startTime":304.335,"endTime":307.775,"body":"but you have to want to solve a problem. And"},{"startTime":307.775,"endTime":311.62,"body":"most of the really, really successful ones are something that someone"},{"startTime":311.62,"endTime":315.38,"body":"has experienced personally, upset them or offended them to such a"},{"startTime":315.38,"endTime":319.06,"body":"state that they went out there and decided that's not acceptable. I'm going to go"},{"startTime":319.06,"endTime":322.764,"body":"and change that. That's why the advice is always,"},{"startTime":322.764,"endTime":326.444,"body":"don't focus on the exit, don't focus on the money. But then, on the other"},{"startTime":326.444,"endTime":329.645,"body":"side of the coin, you'll also hear just as many founders say, you have to"},{"startTime":329.645,"endTime":332.525,"body":"think about your exit, and you have to think about your plan because otherwise, how"},{"startTime":332.525,"endTime":336.125,"body":"can you aim towards it? So, it's kind of contradictory, but I"},{"startTime":336.125,"endTime":339.79,"body":"think, in my view, it's probably, in reality,"},{"startTime":339.79,"endTime":343.33,"body":"50-50. I reckon 50% of people start start-ups because"},{"startTime":343.47,"endTime":346.558,"body":"there's a problem they want to solve. The other 50 do it because they want"},{"startTime":346.558,"endTime":350.235,"body":"to make some money and retire or be the glamorous founder in the"},{"startTime":350.295,"endTime":353.015,"body":"news or whatever it might be, potentially, what you could say are the wrong reasons."},{"startTime":353.015,"endTime":356.455,"body":"Some of the terms that you mentioned"},{"startTime":356.455,"endTime":360.135,"body":"earlier around stage, funding stage,"},{"startTime":360.135,"endTime":363.975,"body":"pre-seed, seed, Series A, B, C, D, what does"},{"startTime":363.975,"endTime":367.55,"body":"all that mean? Interesting thing about the start-up"},{"startTime":367.55,"endTime":370.29,"body":"ecosystem is it has its own language. And"},{"startTime":370.91,"endTime":374.75,"body":"I, many years ago, used to run a course"},{"startTime":374.75,"endTime":378.305,"body":"to teach people how to make the move from corporate into start-up. And the first"},{"startTime":378.305,"endTime":381.104,"body":"thing you've actually got to do is learn the language. And the language, guys, gosh,"},{"startTime":381.104,"endTime":384.465,"body":"there's so much of it. But I think if you're talking about"},{"startTime":384.465,"endTime":388.224,"body":"stages, there's a number of keywords. The first one I use is not"},{"startTime":388.224,"endTime":391.185,"body":"a funding stage. It's called bootstrap, and I'm sure people have heard that term but"},{"startTime":391.185,"endTime":394.59,"body":"don't necessarily always know what it means. A bootstrap business is a business that hasn't"},{"startTime":394.59,"endTime":398.43,"body":"taken any funding. So, essentially, the founder has either funded the"},{"startTime":398.43,"endTime":402.19,"body":"business themselves, or the business funds itself with its own revenue. That"},{"startTime":402.19,"endTime":405.945,"body":"is what a bootstrap business is called. And they typically"},{"startTime":405.945,"endTime":409.544,"body":"take a lot longer to grow because they don't have the capital for rapid"},{"startTime":409.544,"endTime":413.385,"body":"growth. Services companies can often be bootstrap because they don't require massive"},{"startTime":413.385,"endTime":416.925,"body":"capital investment. But most start-ups, particularly technology"},{"startTime":416.985,"endTime":420.81,"body":"start-ups, which is, I guess, what most people think about, require enormous investment"},{"startTime":420.87,"endTime":424.55,"body":"to build the technology to a point where they can actually"},{"startTime":424.55,"endTime":428.07,"body":"just start to sell it, and then even more so, to build it out and"},{"startTime":428.07,"endTime":431.27,"body":"build features and products and make it better and better before it can turn a"},{"startTime":431.27,"endTime":434.89,"body":"profit. And that requires funding that comes in the forms of"},{"startTime":435.695,"endTime":438.975,"body":"maybe only a few things usually. You know, friends and family is obviously always one."},{"startTime":438.975,"endTime":442.575,"body":"There's angel investors, which are individuals who have"},{"startTime":442.575,"endTime":446.335,"body":"spare money that they want to invest in businesses, and they usually come in at"},{"startTime":446.335,"endTime":449.875,"body":"a relatively early stage. And then you sort of hit the venture capital market,"},{"startTime":450.095,"endTime":453.84,"body":"which are companies that invest in businesses purely to help"},{"startTime":453.84,"endTime":457.6,"body":"them grow. There's a few other forms of funding we can talk about"},{"startTime":457.6,"endTime":461.38,"body":"later if you wish, but venture capital is where all the terms come. And the"},{"startTime":461.68,"endTime":465.525,"body":"terms typically go pre-seed, seed, Series A, Series"},{"startTime":465.525,"endTime":468.565,"body":"B, D, E, and on and on. And I think that I've never seen anyone"},{"startTime":468.565,"endTime":472.105,"body":"get past Series F, actually, or maybe H. But they"},{"startTime":472.325,"endTime":476.165,"body":"refer to the stage that the company is at. Right? So, a"},{"startTime":476.165,"endTime":479.78,"body":"pre-seed company is a small amount of money, and it's usually when"},{"startTime":479.78,"endTime":483.46,"body":"someone has formulated an idea. They don't know if the customers want"},{"startTime":483.46,"endTime":486.5,"body":"it. They don't know if they can make it work. They haven't really built anything."},{"startTime":486.5,"endTime":488.919,"body":"It's really just an idea. Once they've"},{"startTime":489.675,"endTime":493.515,"body":"got to a stage where that idea looks like it's going to work, they go"},{"startTime":493.515,"endTime":497.275,"body":"into what is a seed phase. And the seed phase is where"},{"startTime":497.275,"endTime":500.315,"body":"they find what they call product market fit, which is where they prove that someone"},{"startTime":500.315,"endTime":503.35,"body":"out there is willing to pay for their product. And these stages"},{"startTime":503.35,"endTime":506.95,"body":"will increase in terms of the amounts of money people will"},{"startTime":506.95,"endTime":510.79,"body":"invest. So, they tend to start small, and then the larger ones are obviously bigger."},{"startTime":510.79,"endTime":514.07,"body":"Series A, B, C, D, E, F, H, they are just phases of"},{"startTime":514.07,"endTime":517.875,"body":"growth. And what will typically happen is, if you raise"},{"startTime":517.875,"endTime":521.395,"body":"money at Series A, and a Series A business is something that's a real business,"},{"startTime":521.395,"endTime":525.235,"body":"they've got customers, it's proven, it's now, okay, we need to"},{"startTime":525.235,"endTime":527.395,"body":"scale it, we need to hire lots of people, we need to hire marketing, we"},{"startTime":527.395,"endTime":530.515,"body":"need to hire sales, all that kind of stuff, so they'll raise money to do"},{"startTime":530.515,"endTime":533.76,"body":"that. And the Series B will be a continuation of that."},{"startTime":534.22,"endTime":538.06,"body":"And to get those fundings, what these venture capital funds will do is they'll set"},{"startTime":538.06,"endTime":541.42,"body":"targets for them, very much like a salesperson or even schoolwork or something like that."},{"startTime":541.42,"endTime":545.019,"body":"And they'll say, 'Right, here's X amount of money for your Series A. Now prove"},{"startTime":545.019,"endTime":548.195,"body":"to us you can make this work. Prove to us you're a good business person."},{"startTime":548.575,"endTime":552.335,"body":"Grow it by this amount. Get this amount of subscribers. Release"},{"startTime":552.335,"endTime":556.175,"body":"these products, whatever it is those targets are, within this time frame, and"},{"startTime":556.175,"endTime":559.615,"body":"then we'll give you some more money to continue going.' So I liken it"},{"startTime":559.615,"endTime":563.37,"body":"to, I don't know how popular this view is, I liken it to"},{"startTime":563.37,"endTime":566.81,"body":"a parent giving a child money. You know, if you can do this, I'll give"},{"startTime":566.81,"endTime":570.49,"body":"you this. It's kind of like that. It's like, if you can"},{"startTime":570.49,"endTime":573.13,"body":"behave like a bit of an adult and show me you can run a business,"},{"startTime":573.13,"endTime":576.605,"body":"I'll give you some more money. That's kind of how it looks to me from"},{"startTime":576.605,"endTime":580.145,"body":"the outside. I don't think any of the venture capital funds or founders"},{"startTime":580.365,"endTime":584.045,"body":"would love that analogy, but that's kind of the way I see it. Does that"},{"startTime":584.045,"endTime":587.52,"body":"make sense? Yeah. And so, when it comes"},{"startTime":587.74,"endTime":591.18,"body":"to employing staff, so not bringing in"},{"startTime":591.18,"endTime":594.94,"body":"cofounders or whatever, but employing someone,"},{"startTime":594.94,"endTime":598.54,"body":"paying them a salary, is that something that can happen even at the"},{"startTime":598.54,"endTime":601.58,"body":"pre-seed stage, or do they tend to be a little bit bigger before they start"},{"startTime":601.58,"endTime":605.185,"body":"to take on workforce? It varies. Look, I"},{"startTime":605.185,"endTime":608.785,"body":"think what you'll get in start-ups in that very,"},{"startTime":608.785,"endTime":612.625,"body":"very early stage is you will get salaries that are significantly lower than what the"},{"startTime":612.625,"endTime":616.319,"body":"market rate would pay. At this stage, you will often find"},{"startTime":616.319,"endTime":620.0,"body":"that founders will give you equity. Now, equity is a share in the business."},{"startTime":620.0,"endTime":623.519,"body":"It's ownership in that business. They will get it at what is a very low"},{"startTime":623.519,"endTime":626.8,"body":"valuation. As you can imagine, when a business is very young with an idea that's"},{"startTime":626.8,"endTime":630.405,"body":"not proven, that equity is not worth an awful lot of money, because it could"},{"startTime":630.405,"endTime":634.005,"body":"easily just fizz out. So, as a loyal"},{"startTime":634.005,"endTime":637.765,"body":"employee coming in at an early stage, you might take 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% cut"},{"startTime":637.765,"endTime":641.269,"body":"on your wage to get a percentage of equity on the promise that if you"},{"startTime":641.269,"endTime":644.149,"body":"can make it work, that equity could be worth millions and millions of dollars later."},{"startTime":644.149,"endTime":647.829,"body":"And that's kind of how that works. But some people still will feel"},{"startTime":647.829,"endTime":651.589,"body":"that there are certain roles that are so pivotal, and perhaps the founding team"},{"startTime":651.589,"endTime":655.295,"body":"have really no idea about, that they might pay market rate. And that's"},{"startTime":655.295,"endTime":658.815,"body":"a conversation they will have to have if they're raising money with their venture fund"},{"startTime":658.815,"endTime":662.574,"body":"as to why they should be doing that. So, that doesn't happen often. You do"},{"startTime":662.574,"endTime":665.634,"body":"find salaries in the early stages are significantly"},{"startTime":665.935,"endTime":669.71,"body":"lower, but it's a little like, and I know"},{"startTime":669.71,"endTime":672.59,"body":"you and I spoke about this months ago when we first met, it's a little"},{"startTime":672.59,"endTime":676.43,"body":"like the fashion industry. The fashion industry, when I was growing up, was the"},{"startTime":676.43,"endTime":679.965,"body":"most glamorous, as was photography, and as was magazines, but they paid the worst."},{"startTime":680.205,"endTime":683.005,"body":"And they paid the worst because people wanted to work in those industries, and they"},{"startTime":683.005,"endTime":685.965,"body":"were seen as glamorous and fun. And I think start-ups have a little bit of"},{"startTime":685.965,"endTime":689.485,"body":"that as well. Obviously, there's the economic side of it, but I also think there"},{"startTime":689.485,"endTime":693.265,"body":"is some glamour in the start-up industry, which is completely unfounded."},{"startTime":694.19,"endTime":697.87,"body":"That leads nicely onto my next question, which is what are the"},{"startTime":697.87,"endTime":701.63,"body":"common misconceptions people have about working for a"},{"startTime":701.63,"endTime":704.99,"body":"start-up? So, I'd like you to think about both positive and negative in your"},{"startTime":704.99,"endTime":708.465,"body":"answer. Gosh, there's so many. I think it's"},{"startTime":708.605,"endTime":712.205,"body":"not so much misconceptions, I mean, there are some misconceptions. Obviously, there"},{"startTime":712.205,"endTime":716.045,"body":"are the glamourized versions that you see on television. There's the WeWork stories, there's the"},{"startTime":716.045,"endTime":719.82,"body":"Uber stories that we've all seen on streaming platforms. You know, it's not beanbags."},{"startTime":719.82,"endTime":723.42,"body":"It's not table tennis. Although there are beanbags, and there is table tennis, there's actually"},{"startTime":723.42,"endTime":727.18,"body":"very little of that these days. It's not all fun. It's not drinking. It's not"},{"startTime":727.18,"endTime":730.94,"body":"running around in crazy outfits. It's not all fun. It's"},{"startTime":730.94,"endTime":734.255,"body":"actually pretty much the opposite. And the earlier"},{"startTime":734.635,"endTime":738.334,"body":"the phase the company is in, the harder they're working. They're often working"},{"startTime":738.555,"endTime":742.315,"body":"crazy, crazy hours. They're doing things that they don't know"},{"startTime":742.315,"endTime":745.915,"body":"how to do. I think probably the biggest misconception of"},{"startTime":745.915,"endTime":749.64,"body":"start-ups is that it's just like working in a corporate, but a bit more fun."},{"startTime":749.7,"endTime":753.14,"body":"Nothing like that at all. And I think there are very, very different"},{"startTime":753.14,"endTime":756.92,"body":"environments that start-ups go through, and there are very, very different types of personalities"},{"startTime":757.14,"endTime":760.775,"body":"that will fit into those start-ups. There are not many personalities"},{"startTime":760.915,"endTime":764.035,"body":"that will fit into a start-up at a pre-seed and seed and still work well"},{"startTime":764.035,"endTime":767.715,"body":"in a Series D and E. You know, that whole journey that that company"},{"startTime":767.715,"endTime":771.555,"body":"goes on, the staff that are in it, it's unlikely many will see that whole"},{"startTime":771.555,"endTime":775.39,"body":"journey through because they have to vary enormously. But it's a lot"},{"startTime":775.39,"endTime":778.99,"body":"of work. I can explain the differences, if you like,"},{"startTime":778.99,"endTime":782.83,"body":"between the phases because it's not too complicated. Would you like"},{"startTime":782.83,"endTime":786.59,"body":"me to do that? Yeah. Sure. The biggest thing I see with people from corporates"},{"startTime":786.59,"endTime":788.475,"body":"who want to move into start-ups is they want to go into an early stage,"},{"startTime":788.475,"endTime":790.555,"body":"they want to get equity, they want to make millions, and all that kind of"},{"startTime":790.555,"endTime":794.015,"body":"stuff. The very early stages of a start-up are utter chaos. There's"},{"startTime":794.315,"endTime":797.935,"body":"very little resources. There's no money. There's"},{"startTime":797.995,"endTime":801.835,"body":"certainly nobody to create a template for you or to show you where the form"},{"startTime":801.835,"endTime":804.29,"body":"is or the intranet. There's nothing. There's literally nothing there."},{"startTime":806.13,"endTime":809.269,"body":"And whatever your job title is is almost irrelevant."},{"startTime":809.889,"endTime":813.51,"body":"You tend to have small groups of people who love ambiguity."},{"startTime":814.05,"endTime":817.81,"body":"They hate structure. They love going from thing to thing to thing. They don't"},{"startTime":817.81,"endTime":821.125,"body":"mind not finishing things. They don't mind starting thinking and changing their mind and doing"},{"startTime":821.125,"endTime":824.725,"body":"something else. They even relish that. They tend to be quite"},{"startTime":824.725,"endTime":828.404,"body":"scatter-brained kind of people that think very differently and have lots of"},{"startTime":828.404,"endTime":832.005,"body":"energy and just want to get things done. They don't need things to be done"},{"startTime":832.005,"endTime":835.5,"body":"perfectly. They just need them to work enough to get to the next phase. That's"},{"startTime":835.5,"endTime":838.72,"body":"a very different personality to, say, a Series"},{"startTime":839.1,"endTime":842.86,"body":"B, where you've got a company that's getting quite serious. And people"},{"startTime":842.86,"endTime":846.38,"body":"like that, in a company like that, are a disaster because they cause"},{"startTime":846.38,"endTime":850.0,"body":"mayhem. You've got many more staff. Everyone's got very specific roles,"},{"startTime":850.254,"endTime":853.454,"body":"and it's very, very clear what everyone has to do. And there is structure, and"},{"startTime":853.454,"endTime":857.134,"body":"there are forms, and there are HR, and there are marketing. So, you take an"},{"startTime":857.134,"endTime":860.254,"body":"early stage person, and you put them in a Series B or C, they cause"},{"startTime":860.254,"endTime":864.095,"body":"absolute mayhem and often actually can be really damaging to the growth of"},{"startTime":864.095,"endTime":867.55,"body":"the business. But then, you take a Series B or D person or a corporate"},{"startTime":867.55,"endTime":870.589,"body":"person, put them in this environment, and they freak out because"},{"startTime":870.589,"endTime":874.43,"body":"it's just not what they're used to, and they get frustrated because things"},{"startTime":874.43,"endTime":876.99,"body":"keep changing, and they don't know how to do that. So, why are you asking"},{"startTime":876.99,"endTime":880.375,"body":"me how to do that? That's not my job. So, you go from"},{"startTime":880.435,"endTime":884.235,"body":"chaos into order, and there's all the phases in between. And"},{"startTime":884.235,"endTime":887.875,"body":"I think the problem with people who haven't worked in the industry is"},{"startTime":887.875,"endTime":891.634,"body":"they don't actually know where they fit. They think they do,"},{"startTime":891.634,"endTime":894.63,"body":"but they don't. You can ask some questions, and there are interviewing techniques that will"},{"startTime":894.63,"endTime":898.47,"body":"tell you. And most people will begin to understand that."},{"startTime":898.47,"endTime":902.23,"body":"The hardest part, I think, for us when we've recruited, particularly people who"},{"startTime":902.23,"endTime":904.87,"body":"want to go to an early stage but are clearly not going to survive in"},{"startTime":904.87,"endTime":908.33,"body":"that, is telling them that they're not suited to that environment. It doesn't go"},{"startTime":908.725,"endTime":911.685,"body":"down well, ever. I don't think I've ever had someone go, 'Oh, yes. You're right."},{"startTime":911.685,"endTime":914.885,"body":"You're right. I'll go for those.' People get quite upset. They get quite defensive. They"},{"startTime":914.885,"endTime":918.565,"body":"think that you're criticizing them. So, it's very"},{"startTime":918.565,"endTime":922.405,"body":"personality-driven and much less skills-driven at the beginning. And"},{"startTime":922.405,"endTime":926.01,"body":"I think that's a big leap for someone that's come from a larger organisation."},{"startTime":927.93,"endTime":931.77,"body":"Isn't a lot of what you've just said also relevant for the founders"},{"startTime":931.77,"endTime":935.61,"body":"themselves? I mean, doesn't that mean that founders potentially struggle as"},{"startTime":935.61,"endTime":939.425,"body":"the business grows and becomes a more serious business? Look, it"},{"startTime":939.425,"endTime":943.024,"body":"does. Founders are another breed altogether. You know, there needs to be an"},{"startTime":943.024,"endTime":946.865,"body":"element of huge risk-taking to be a founder, comfortable with"},{"startTime":946.865,"endTime":950.245,"body":"that and not necessarily see it as risk-taking. Founders tend to have egos"},{"startTime":950.704,"endTime":954.38,"body":"and need them fed now at varying degrees. There are degrees that are healthy, and"},{"startTime":954.38,"endTime":957.6,"body":"there are degrees that are not. And founders do go through a journey."},{"startTime":957.98,"endTime":961.82,"body":"There's some really good stories about founders who haven't been"},{"startTime":961.82,"endTime":965.579,"body":"able to let go at certain stages and cause problems, and some founders who"},{"startTime":965.579,"endTime":969.205,"body":"have seen it all the way through. There are very few that see it all"},{"startTime":969.205,"endTime":972.565,"body":"the way through, and I'm always blown away and impressed. Myself as a founder, I"},{"startTime":972.565,"endTime":975.525,"body":"know where I tap out in terms of my skill sets. I'm much better in"},{"startTime":975.525,"endTime":979.285,"body":"the early stage. And the reality is, if you can work"},{"startTime":979.285,"endTime":982.8,"body":"out where that is, and you can delegate those roles and move away and become"},{"startTime":983.12,"endTime":986.56,"body":"ambassador, hire a CEO, COO, chief of staff, whatever it"},{"startTime":986.56,"endTime":990.24,"body":"is, and begin to relinquish the things that you are"},{"startTime":990.24,"endTime":994.0,"body":"bad at, you will be a better founder. But at the same time,"},{"startTime":994.0,"endTime":997.805,"body":"a little like being a parent, founders don't like letting go of"},{"startTime":997.805,"endTime":1001.545,"body":"their essential child. So, founder journeys are"},{"startTime":1001.925,"endTime":1005.125,"body":"very well documented. Some great books and stories on it. But I think there's a"},{"startTime":1005.125,"endTime":1008.805,"body":"lot more education around it now. But founders are a totally different breed to everybody"},{"startTime":1008.805,"endTime":1012.63,"body":"else as well. So, yeah, there's a lot of interesting personalities"},{"startTime":1012.93,"endTime":1016.45,"body":"in this ecosystem. It has to be said. You talked a little bit"},{"startTime":1016.45,"endTime":1019.27,"body":"about some of the misconceptions,"},{"startTime":1020.21,"endTime":1024.05,"body":"and I'm curious as to whether there are any"},{"startTime":1024.05,"endTime":1027.265,"body":"deeply held negative"},{"startTime":1028.045,"endTime":1031.724,"body":"misconceptions about working for start-ups, which aren't really that"},{"startTime":1031.724,"endTime":1035.165,"body":"true? Yeah. There definitely are. I think a lot of"},{"startTime":1035.165,"endTime":1039.005,"body":"people see it as very high risk and that there's a"},{"startTime":1039.005,"endTime":1042.39,"body":"high chance they'll lose their job. This is just not true. If you look at"},{"startTime":1042.39,"endTime":1045.99,"body":"data, which is what everybody does these days, interestingly enough,"},{"startTime":1045.99,"endTime":1049.75,"body":"you're far more likely to be made redundant from a large organisation than you are"},{"startTime":1049.75,"endTime":1053.51,"body":"from a start-up. Look, there's definitely a percentage"},{"startTime":1053.51,"endTime":1056.825,"body":"of start-ups that will not make it, and they will close down. There's no question"},{"startTime":1057.065,"endTime":1060.585,"body":"about that. But if you actually really look at the"},{"startTime":1060.585,"endTime":1063.945,"body":"figures, statistically, you're far more likely to lose your job in a larger"},{"startTime":1063.945,"endTime":1067.705,"body":"organisation over a cycle of maybe five to"},{"startTime":1067.705,"endTime":1070.89,"body":"10 years. So, at the end of the day, you don't have to make money"},{"startTime":1070.89,"endTime":1073.05,"body":"as a start-up. You just have to get funding, and then you just have to"},{"startTime":1073.05,"endTime":1076.83,"body":"hit the timelines. Right? So, if you've got the right team,"},{"startTime":1077.13,"endTime":1080.81,"body":"there's no reason a start-up should fail, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be"},{"startTime":1080.81,"endTime":1084.555,"body":"able to get paid. So, I think that's probably the biggest misconception. Now, you"},{"startTime":1084.555,"endTime":1086.955,"body":"have to do your research. You have to look at who's funding them. You have"},{"startTime":1086.955,"endTime":1090.475,"body":"to look at how crazy that founder is. Is that founder going to cause it"},{"startTime":1090.475,"endTime":1093.515,"body":"all to collapse in a heap, or are they going to drive it through? And"},{"startTime":1093.515,"endTime":1097.22,"body":"those are all difficult questions to ask, but they're no different than asking that"},{"startTime":1097.22,"endTime":1101.06,"body":"question of a department within a new business. Let's say a"},{"startTime":1101.06,"endTime":1104.9,"body":"big tech company decides to create a new department launching into a new area. If"},{"startTime":1104.9,"endTime":1108.66,"body":"the person launching that department doesn't make it work, that department will get closed down"},{"startTime":1108.66,"endTime":1112.315,"body":"or offshored. So, look, I think that's probably the"},{"startTime":1112.315,"endTime":1115.914,"body":"biggest misconception that I get. I think that you don't get paid anything, that's"},{"startTime":1115.914,"endTime":1119.195,"body":"also not true. You know, once you do get past those very early stages, there's"},{"startTime":1119.195,"endTime":1123.03,"body":"some very attractive wages out there. I think a lot of people think"},{"startTime":1123.03,"endTime":1126.669,"body":"they're going to get massive chunks of equity. I don't think people realise the"},{"startTime":1126.669,"endTime":1130.23,"body":"small percentages of equity they might get. They might get"},{"startTime":1130.23,"endTime":1133.59,"body":"0.05%, which could be worth millions, but could be worth"},{"startTime":1133.59,"endTime":1136.97,"body":"nothing. So, there's a lot of misconceptions about that."},{"startTime":1137.445,"endTime":1140.965,"body":"I think also there's a lot of people who think that"},{"startTime":1140.965,"endTime":1144.805,"body":"no one's taking it seriously, that they're going"},{"startTime":1144.805,"endTime":1148.645,"body":"to have to, I guess, almost change their personality. There's a lot"},{"startTime":1148.645,"endTime":1151.925,"body":"of very serious people in the start-up sector trying to do a lot of very"},{"startTime":1151.925,"endTime":1155.559,"body":"serious things. And I think there's a lot of people trying"},{"startTime":1155.559,"endTime":1159.32,"body":"to solve problems that have real genuine meaning. And this is one of the massive"},{"startTime":1159.32,"endTime":1162.919,"body":"benefits of start-ups is that, often in a larger organisation,"},{"startTime":1162.919,"endTime":1166.76,"body":"regardless of what they may say in their policies about how they're trying"},{"startTime":1166.76,"endTime":1170.005,"body":"to save the world, planet, charities, whatever it is, it's"},{"startTime":1170.705,"endTime":1174.465,"body":"hard to connect in a large organisation, when you're in a start-up, and"},{"startTime":1174.465,"endTime":1178.245,"body":"you're seeing what it's doing, you're seeing how it's solving a problem. And"},{"startTime":1178.385,"endTime":1182.225,"body":"even if they do have a relationship with a charity, there's a very"},{"startTime":1182.225,"endTime":1186.02,"body":"great fintech that has a really strong partnership with Parley around plastic"},{"startTime":1186.02,"endTime":1189.7,"body":"in the ocean, and they live by that. And you can really connect"},{"startTime":1189.7,"endTime":1192.74,"body":"with some of those things because you're right in there, and you're seeing it, and"},{"startTime":1192.74,"endTime":1196.26,"body":"you can impact it. The things that you do in an organisation"},{"startTime":1196.26,"endTime":1199.995,"body":"of 20 people impact everybody in that organisation. The things"},{"startTime":1199.995,"endTime":1203.835,"body":"that you do in an organisation of 200,000 people, yes, they do, but it's very,"},{"startTime":1203.835,"endTime":1207.674,"body":"very difficult to really get any feeling about that. So, it's a very"},{"startTime":1207.674,"endTime":1210.735,"body":"different world, and it can be incredibly rewarding."},{"startTime":1211.674,"endTime":1215.389,"body":"And I do believe not just that the"},{"startTime":1215.389,"endTime":1218.75,"body":"world has changed in terms of start-ups being much more prevalent now, and a lot"},{"startTime":1218.75,"endTime":1221.789,"body":"more people are trying to do them, but I think COVID made a lot of"},{"startTime":1221.789,"endTime":1225.47,"body":"people want to do something of meaning. I think when suddenly they've"},{"startTime":1225.47,"endTime":1228.509,"body":"been in a job, in a rut, or a pattern or whatever you might have"},{"startTime":1228.509,"endTime":1231.045,"body":"called it, and they were going along quite happy, and they were planning for their"},{"startTime":1231.045,"endTime":1234.725,"body":"future, having that period at home gave a lot of time for people to reflect."},{"startTime":1234.725,"endTime":1238.565,"body":"And having the world potentially nearly the end and everyone nearly die,"},{"startTime":1238.565,"endTime":1242.245,"body":"which, you know, was on the cards, right, having that go through their minds has"},{"startTime":1242.245,"endTime":1244.485,"body":"made a lot of people go, 'You know what? I really want to do something.'"},{"startTime":1244.485,"endTime":1247.809,"body":"And I think start-ups are the place that do that, and I think that's driven"},{"startTime":1247.809,"endTime":1251.57,"body":"a lot of the culture that has grown. Australia has obviously exploded in"},{"startTime":1251.57,"endTime":1254.929,"body":"start-ups compared to where it was. It was in a pretty poor place. It was"},{"startTime":1254.929,"endTime":1258.45,"body":"an easy rise. But I think all of this has come together to"},{"startTime":1258.45,"endTime":1262.294,"body":"create this perfect storm right now. So, let's build a"},{"startTime":1262.294,"endTime":1265.975,"body":"little bit on some of what you said. So, again, looking at"},{"startTime":1265.975,"endTime":1269.815,"body":"both the positives and the negatives, what are some of the"},{"startTime":1269.815,"endTime":1273.195,"body":"unique challenges, and what are some of the unique benefits"},{"startTime":1273.975,"endTime":1277.4,"body":"of working for a start-up, compared with working for a large"},{"startTime":1277.4,"endTime":1280.7,"body":"corporate? Unique challenges would be"},{"startTime":1281.08,"endTime":1284.84,"body":"everything is changeable in the heartbeat. I"},{"startTime":1284.84,"endTime":1288.62,"body":"think if you enjoy a constant"},{"startTime":1288.76,"endTime":1291.74,"body":"stream of change and excitement and"},{"startTime":1292.205,"endTime":1295.965,"body":"not knowing, uncertainty is"},{"startTime":1295.965,"endTime":1299.325,"body":"something that human beings as a whole do not like, but at the same time,"},{"startTime":1299.325,"endTime":1303.005,"body":"we also get bored if we don't have any, right? So, you've got this weird"},{"startTime":1303.005,"endTime":1306.605,"body":"situation where humans hate uncertainty, shown by"},{"startTime":1306.605,"endTime":1309.95,"body":"COVID, but they also hate to know exactly what's happening, that's boring to them. And"},{"startTime":1309.95,"endTime":1313.47,"body":"in between, everyone has varying levels. So, I think one of the unique"},{"startTime":1313.47,"endTime":1316.77,"body":"challenges is start-ups offer a lot of uncertainty."},{"startTime":1317.07,"endTime":1320.91,"body":"That is very attractive to some people and not attractive others. Most people have no"},{"startTime":1320.91,"endTime":1323.885,"body":"idea if they haven't worked in one, whether it is or isn't. And I think"},{"startTime":1323.885,"endTime":1326.845,"body":"that's one of the biggest challenges when they come in. I think one of the"},{"startTime":1326.845,"endTime":1330.605,"body":"other biggest challenges when they come in is that, really, you kind"},{"startTime":1330.605,"endTime":1334.445,"body":"of have to take responsibility for yourself and your career in that"},{"startTime":1334.445,"endTime":1337.91,"body":"start-up. No one's going to come along and have a one-on-one with you and give"},{"startTime":1337.91,"endTime":1341.61,"body":"you your plan for your future and tell you how to excel"},{"startTime":1342.39,"endTime":1345.59,"body":"in this business. If you want to excel in a start-up, you have to be,"},{"startTime":1345.59,"endTime":1349.35,"body":"in some ways, entrepreneurial. You don't have to be an entrepreneur per"},{"startTime":1349.35,"endTime":1353.065,"body":"se, but you have to have an entrepreneurial spirit and go,"},{"startTime":1353.065,"endTime":1355.784,"body":"'You know what? I'm going to make this happen for me.' Which is a little"},{"startTime":1355.784,"endTime":1359.385,"body":"bit counterintuitive for Australia. It's very, very common in the"},{"startTime":1359.385,"endTime":1362.745,"body":"US, not so common in the UK, and probably even less so here in terms"},{"startTime":1362.745,"endTime":1366.48,"body":"of I'm taking responsibility for myself. People don't do that."},{"startTime":1366.48,"endTime":1370.08,"body":"They're getting better at it, and the younger generation are far better at it. But"},{"startTime":1370.08,"endTime":1373.679,"body":"I think that's probably the biggest challenge I see for most people coming in is"},{"startTime":1373.679,"endTime":1377.12,"body":"that suddenly nothing is looked after for them. It's like"},{"startTime":1377.12,"endTime":1380.625,"body":"leaving home, I guess, from parents. There's a lot of children and the parent"},{"startTime":1380.625,"endTime":1384.305,"body":"analogies here, and I think they're very relevant in the start-up world. You really"},{"startTime":1384.305,"endTime":1387.665,"body":"have to grow up and go, if I want this to happen for me in"},{"startTime":1387.665,"endTime":1391.025,"body":"this business, I'm going to have to do it myself. That's probably the greatest challenge."},{"startTime":1391.025,"endTime":1394.789,"body":"What were you saying the other, greatest benefit? Yeah. What are"},{"startTime":1394.789,"endTime":1397.769,"body":"the benefits? Look, it has to be"},{"startTime":1398.63,"endTime":1402.07,"body":"the camaraderie. The way people in this"},{"startTime":1402.07,"endTime":1405.83,"body":"ecosystem, it shocked me when I really, I'd always gone around"},{"startTime":1405.83,"endTime":1409.429,"body":"the fringes of it in all my career, but when I totally immersed in"},{"startTime":1409.429,"endTime":1413.005,"body":"it, it really shocked me how the people in"},{"startTime":1413.005,"endTime":1416.525,"body":"this ecosystem very much have the least amount of resources, the least amount of"},{"startTime":1416.525,"endTime":1419.885,"body":"time, and they are the most generous with both of those outside of"},{"startTime":1419.885,"endTime":1423.645,"body":"that. And the feeling of being part of a team, the feeling of doing something"},{"startTime":1423.645,"endTime":1427.49,"body":"together, the feeling of having leadership that"},{"startTime":1427.71,"endTime":1431.07,"body":"really bonds people on a common goal is"},{"startTime":1431.07,"endTime":1434.91,"body":"just incredible. You don't get that as easily"},{"startTime":1434.91,"endTime":1438.75,"body":"in a big corporation. And that's not the big corporation's fault. It's a different"},{"startTime":1438.75,"endTime":1442.345,"body":"environment. It'd be incredibly hard to do that in a larger environment. Now you get,"},{"startTime":1442.345,"endTime":1446.185,"body":"obviously, departments and so forth in larger organisations, but it's just"},{"startTime":1446.185,"endTime":1450.025,"body":"different. The energy and the positivity because, again,"},{"startTime":1450.025,"endTime":1453.865,"body":"you need that. You can't be negative in this environment. No one will like that."},{"startTime":1453.865,"endTime":1457.44,"body":"It's an environment of uncertainty. You need that positivity. It"},{"startTime":1457.9,"endTime":1461.74,"body":"really does, I think, catch a lot of people by surprise,"},{"startTime":1461.74,"endTime":1465.58,"body":"and it's very, very addictive. And you find that it creeps into other"},{"startTime":1465.58,"endTime":1469.265,"body":"areas of your life, which I think is a positive. So, I think"},{"startTime":1469.265,"endTime":1473.105,"body":"that's the biggest benefit. Negativity, hours. Hours, the"},{"startTime":1473.105,"endTime":1475.185,"body":"hours are long. They are, they're going to be long. They're going to be up"},{"startTime":1475.185,"endTime":1478.305,"body":"and down. We talk a lot about work-life balance, we talk a lot about hustle"},{"startTime":1478.305,"endTime":1481.345,"body":"culture, getting sleep, all these kinds of things, and all these things are very important,"},{"startTime":1481.345,"endTime":1484.07,"body":"and you should take notice of all these things, but"},{"startTime":1485.11,"endTime":1487.67,"body":"if you're in a start-up, there are going to be periods of time where those"},{"startTime":1487.67,"endTime":1490.55,"body":"things have to go out the window because what needs to be done needs to"},{"startTime":1490.55,"endTime":1492.47,"body":"be done, and no one else is going to do it. And if you don't"},{"startTime":1492.47,"endTime":1496.125,"body":"do it, the implications are highly serious. So, you also have to be prepared to"},{"startTime":1496.125,"endTime":1499.325,"body":"know that there will be times when you might be working late. You may not"},{"startTime":1499.325,"endTime":1501.645,"body":"be able to do this. You may not be able to do that. And I"},{"startTime":1501.645,"endTime":1505.425,"body":"think that's the biggest challenge for a lot of people who aren't necessarily"},{"startTime":1505.645,"endTime":1509.005,"body":"used to that. And everybody just immerses themselves in that."},{"startTime":1510.44,"endTime":1514.22,"body":"That's really interesting because there's been a lot said, certainly"},{"startTime":1514.44,"endTime":1517.179,"body":"more recently, and certainly post-pandemic, how"},{"startTime":1518.039,"endTime":1521.88,"body":"Gen Z and millennials, that's not the lifestyle they want. They don't want"},{"startTime":1521.88,"endTime":1525.32,"body":"to work all the long hours. They're happy to work hard, but they"},{"startTime":1525.32,"endTime":1529.155,"body":"want work-life balance. They want a life outside work. So, are you"},{"startTime":1529.155,"endTime":1532.595,"body":"seeing any kind of shift in the way"},{"startTime":1532.595,"endTime":1536.435,"body":"start-ups are approaching that, or does it just mean"},{"startTime":1536.435,"endTime":1539.475,"body":"that there's a smaller pool of people who"},{"startTime":1539.475,"endTime":1543.32,"body":"want to do that, who want the hustle culture, who want the long hours? Look,"},{"startTime":1543.86,"endTime":1547.56,"body":"I think there's a generalisation of this. I"},{"startTime":1547.62,"endTime":1551.38,"body":"see just as many young people who are willing to work the hours. I think"},{"startTime":1551.38,"endTime":1555.215,"body":"the difference is they want to work the hours on their terms. So, there is"},{"startTime":1555.274,"endTime":1558.815,"body":"a big, big difference between working in a start-up and knowing"},{"startTime":1558.875,"endTime":1562.634,"body":"that a project has to be done because you do know. You know, the transparency"},{"startTime":1562.634,"endTime":1566.254,"body":"in start-ups is far greater, of course, than it is in large organisations. So, the"},{"startTime":1567.039,"endTime":1570.559,"body":"willingness to do the work for that period of time is there. Whereas"},{"startTime":1570.559,"endTime":1573.919,"body":"in a large organisation, if someone expects you to stay, but there's no real reason,"},{"startTime":1573.919,"endTime":1577.44,"body":"and you can't see it, you're just told you have to do it. It's the"},{"startTime":1577.76,"endTime":1581.534,"body":"way it's approached. Also, it may interest you to know that most start-up founders"},{"startTime":1581.534,"endTime":1585.375,"body":"are not out of college when 20 years old. Most start-up founders right now"},{"startTime":1585.375,"endTime":1588.914,"body":"are sort of late 30s, early 40s. So, it's an"},{"startTime":1589.135,"endTime":1592.751,"body":"interesting fact in itself, that there's this huge shift of the age of founders that"},{"startTime":1592.752,"endTime":1595.84,"body":"has risen. And, again, I put this down to COVID and people going, 'You know,"},{"startTime":1595.84,"endTime":1598.48,"body":"I need to do something. I want to do something.' But I don't believe that"},{"startTime":1598.48,"endTime":1601.92,"body":"the young generation is lazy. I think there's lazy people. Of course, there are. There's"},{"startTime":1601.92,"endTime":1605.28,"body":"lazy older people. The difference is, I think, that if you are"},{"startTime":1605.28,"endTime":1608.965,"body":"mid-career and lazy, you can go and sit in Commonwealth Bank or NAB"},{"startTime":1608.965,"endTime":1612.805,"body":"or ING or IBM or any one of these enormous organisations"},{"startTime":1612.805,"endTime":1616.645,"body":"and quite easily hide. And it's almost impossible for them to"},{"startTime":1616.645,"endTime":1619.865,"body":"know that you are lazy and not doing that. But if you are"},{"startTime":1620.39,"endTime":1624.23,"body":"young, it's impossible to do that because everybody's watching you. So, I think there's probably"},{"startTime":1624.23,"endTime":1627.67,"body":"about the same percentage of lazy young people and lazy older people and"},{"startTime":1627.67,"endTime":1631.27,"body":"middle-aged people and whatever is the appropriate thing to say. It's just not"},{"startTime":1631.27,"endTime":1635.045,"body":"as visible. It's much easier for them to hide. Now, again, that's not a popular"},{"startTime":1635.045,"endTime":1638.725,"body":"view. But I see, and I've had many people in that"},{"startTime":1638.725,"endTime":1642.565,"body":"generation who I see who work far harder than a lot"},{"startTime":1642.565,"endTime":1645.125,"body":"of people who probably are also writing those articles."},{"startTime":1647.12,"endTime":1650.96,"body":"Yeah. I've got to say, the word lazy wasn't"},{"startTime":1650.96,"endTime":1654.5,"body":"quite the one that I was kind of looking for because I don't think"},{"startTime":1654.8,"endTime":1658.56,"body":"people are against working hard. I think it comes back to"},{"startTime":1658.56,"endTime":1662.054,"body":"what you were saying about it being on their"},{"startTime":1662.054,"endTime":1665.895,"body":"terms. So, my background is as a"},{"startTime":1665.895,"endTime":1669.655,"body":"solicitor, and if I had plans for Valentine's Day and then, the"},{"startTime":1669.655,"endTime":1673.495,"body":"partner that I'm sitting in with says, 'Oh, I need this document for a meeting"},{"startTime":1673.495,"endTime":1677.18,"body":"tomorrow. Can you help me search my office which is an absolute pigsty to"},{"startTime":1677.18,"endTime":1680.7,"body":"find it?' You know, I'm feeling pretty hard done by in that kind"},{"startTime":1680.7,"endTime":1684.3,"body":"of situation. Whereas, if it's,"},{"startTime":1684.54,"endTime":1688.16,"body":"I think it was purpose-driven was the phrase you used, if people"},{"startTime":1688.46,"endTime":1692.115,"body":"can see why it's important, why they're doing"},{"startTime":1692.115,"endTime":1695.955,"body":"this, then there's going to be much greater motivation rather than just, oh,"},{"startTime":1695.955,"endTime":1699.795,"body":"well, this is what I have to do when I'm a junior in order to"},{"startTime":1699.795,"endTime":1703.635,"body":"advance. Yeah. I think you're right. I think that there's a lot more"},{"startTime":1703.635,"endTime":1707.409,"body":"self-control or self-discipline in start-ups. I think there's a lot more"},{"startTime":1707.409,"endTime":1711.09,"body":"freedom. There's obviously a lot more working from home. There's a lot more trust."},{"startTime":1711.09,"endTime":1714.929,"body":"It's very much outcome-driven rather than time-driven. You"},{"startTime":1714.929,"endTime":1718.69,"body":"know, I think that's a big difference you'll see. You don't see start-ups clock-watching. They"},{"startTime":1718.69,"endTime":1722.165,"body":"are watching what the outcomes are. And I think if you are"},{"startTime":1722.465,"endTime":1726.145,"body":"outcome-driven, people will work whatever you need them to work to hit the"},{"startTime":1726.145,"endTime":1729.905,"body":"outcomes because it's clear. Asking someone to search your office last minute, that's"},{"startTime":1729.905,"endTime":1733.73,"body":"not outcome-driven that you were aware of all week. Right? That's, yeah, well, we've all"},{"startTime":1733.73,"endTime":1737.49,"body":"been there. Let's not get into post-traumatic stress. I mean, I'm old enough"},{"startTime":1737.49,"endTime":1740.93,"body":"to have lived through that well. So, I think it's being treated more like a"},{"startTime":1740.93,"endTime":1744.37,"body":"grown-up. So, I think it's a world"},{"startTime":1744.37,"endTime":1748.145,"body":"where there's probably a lot more trust. Now that comes"},{"startTime":1748.145,"endTime":1751.825,"body":"with its own challenges, and people take advantage of that, but that happens in any"},{"startTime":1751.825,"endTime":1754.952,"body":"environment. There's always going to be people that take advantage of that. I think in"},{"startTime":1754.953,"endTime":1758.545,"body":"a start-up ecosystem, they tend to get found out a little sooner and"},{"startTime":1758.545,"endTime":1762.35,"body":"a little quicker. They also don't tend to be gravitating towards that"},{"startTime":1762.57,"endTime":1766.25,"body":"environment anyway. You talked about the way"},{"startTime":1766.25,"endTime":1769.63,"body":"that the companies evolved, and so the people"},{"startTime":1769.77,"endTime":1773.45,"body":"evolve as start-ups go through their life cycle"},{"startTime":1773.45,"endTime":1777.185,"body":"and move from pre-seed, seed, Series A, and so on. What are some of"},{"startTime":1777.185,"endTime":1780.565,"body":"the ways that both the working"},{"startTime":1780.625,"endTime":1784.385,"body":"culture and also the roles, the"},{"startTime":1784.385,"endTime":1787.985,"body":"sorts of employees that they're going to have, how will"},{"startTime":1787.985,"endTime":1791.24,"body":"those vary depending on what stage you're at?"},{"startTime":1791.96,"endTime":1795.42,"body":"So, I think one of the hardest parts for any founder"},{"startTime":1795.8,"endTime":1799.64,"body":"is when they move from a start-up to a scale-up. Now I'll give you"},{"startTime":1799.64,"endTime":1803.24,"body":"my definition of what that means. It's not defined anywhere"},{"startTime":1803.24,"endTime":1806.52,"body":"accurately. It's just my version. Just to be clear, before everyone jumps on and goes,"},{"startTime":1806.52,"endTime":1810.015,"body":"'You're wrong!' To me, the view of a start-up to scale-up is when"},{"startTime":1810.015,"endTime":1813.855,"body":"they do not have what I would call or what is called"},{"startTime":1813.855,"endTime":1817.375,"body":"a runway. Now a runway is a determining period of time before the money runs"},{"startTime":1817.375,"endTime":1820.59,"body":"out. So, you've been given two million bucks. You know that it costs you X"},{"startTime":1820.59,"endTime":1823.549,"body":"amount of money to run the business this month. You know how long that money"},{"startTime":1823.549,"endTime":1826.91,"body":"is going to run until it runs out. That's called a runway. I think when"},{"startTime":1826.91,"endTime":1830.11,"body":"a company hits where they've got their own revenue, or they've got such a large"},{"startTime":1830.11,"endTime":1833.23,"body":"amount of funding that the runway is not within the next two or three years,"},{"startTime":1833.23,"endTime":1836.825,"body":"that's my view they're becoming a scale-up. They're no longer a start-up. And that's"},{"startTime":1837.205,"endTime":1841.044,"body":"when a lot of the roles will change, and that's when founders have to"},{"startTime":1841.044,"endTime":1844.245,"body":"change a lot of their stuff. So, founders believe, unfortunately, and"},{"startTime":1844.245,"endTime":1847.524,"body":"you have to have a lot of romanticism, I think, to start a business, believe"},{"startTime":1847.524,"endTime":1850.429,"body":"that the first five people that they start the business with will be there at"},{"startTime":1850.429,"endTime":1852.83,"body":"the end. They will be billionaires on their boat, and they'll be happy, and everyone"},{"startTime":1852.83,"endTime":1855.87,"body":"will be just so grateful to them for giving them opportunity. That's"},{"startTime":1856.429,"endTime":1860.19,"body":"not the reality. Very few of those early-stage buyers"},{"startTime":1860.19,"endTime":1863.71,"body":"will make it past that sort of start-up to scale-up phase. And"},{"startTime":1863.71,"endTime":1867.275,"body":"the reason being is that, like I mentioned earlier, in the early"},{"startTime":1867.275,"endTime":1871.035,"body":"times, you need someone who's willing to do four different jobs, who can change"},{"startTime":1871.035,"endTime":1873.835,"body":"and do something they've never done before, who can look things up, who can make"},{"startTime":1873.835,"endTime":1876.795,"body":"things up, get involved in everything, have their pies in everything, they know what's happening"},{"startTime":1876.795,"endTime":1880.549,"body":"across the whole business, they love this ambiguity, they love the energy, they love the"},{"startTime":1880.549,"endTime":1883.83,"body":"chaos. And that's great. But once you get to that point where you go into"},{"startTime":1883.83,"endTime":1887.669,"body":"start-up mode, then you need structure because you can't scale"},{"startTime":1887.669,"endTime":1891.51,"body":"past a certain point without structure. So, then suddenly, you have roles that are very,"},{"startTime":1891.51,"endTime":1895.045,"body":"very specific. You will have not someone who's doing product"},{"startTime":1895.045,"endTime":1898.565,"body":"and marketing, you'll have maybe a whole team of marketing people who have specific roles"},{"startTime":1898.565,"endTime":1902.245,"body":"and a whole team of people in product who have different roles. And if you've"},{"startTime":1902.245,"endTime":1905.21,"body":"still got old little Johnny in the middle who used to do it all, guess"},{"startTime":1905.289,"endTime":1907.77,"body":"what he does? He wants to get involved in all of it, and he annoys"},{"startTime":1907.77,"endTime":1911.289,"body":"the heck out of everybody. So, he becomes an actual barrier"},{"startTime":1911.289,"endTime":1914.909,"body":"in the growth, and it becomes problematic. So, we"},{"startTime":1915.13,"endTime":1918.73,"body":"do a lot of coaching with founders on that. They need to recognise this early."},{"startTime":1918.73,"endTime":1921.325,"body":"And there's a number of things you can do. You can either talk to your"},{"startTime":1921.325,"endTime":1924.684,"body":"employees about it early on so they know that it's coming, where they're either going"},{"startTime":1924.684,"endTime":1927.085,"body":"to have to find something else, which is okay, they can probably keep their equity,"},{"startTime":1927.085,"endTime":1930.764,"body":"and they can go off to another start-up. That's quite common. More so overseas than"},{"startTime":1930.764,"endTime":1934.28,"body":"it is here, but it's becoming more common here. Or there are"},{"startTime":1934.42,"endTime":1938.04,"body":"other ways of doing that. And I think that probably the greatest version of"},{"startTime":1938.26,"endTime":1941.56,"body":"this I saw was Fred from Finder. He had"},{"startTime":1941.94,"endTime":1945.78,"body":"grown Finder to a certain point. He just felt completely lost, and there was"},{"startTime":1945.78,"endTime":1948.535,"body":"a documentary about it. So, what did he do? He went over to the States"},{"startTime":1948.535,"endTime":1952.135,"body":"and launched Finder over there. He knew he was good at that beginning part. So,"},{"startTime":1952.135,"endTime":1955.015,"body":"what he did, he took himself out of the environment and put himself into a"},{"startTime":1955.015,"endTime":1958.215,"body":"totally new one where it was all chaos again. And you can do that with"},{"startTime":1958.215,"endTime":1961.175,"body":"employees. You can offer them, we're going to start a new product line. We're going"},{"startTime":1961.175,"endTime":1963.409,"body":"to go into a new region. We're going to go off and do a little,"},{"startTime":1963.409,"endTime":1966.929,"body":"there's opportunities. But more often than not, you have to let them"},{"startTime":1966.929,"endTime":1970.389,"body":"go into a different business. You let them leave and"},{"startTime":1970.69,"endTime":1974.129,"body":"then start to hire those people who love structure and love process,"},{"startTime":1974.129,"endTime":1977.909,"body":"because that's the only way you're going to get to that next goal. It's one"},{"startTime":1978.165,"endTime":1981.865,"body":"of the most difficult times. Founders find it incredibly difficult. We"},{"startTime":1981.925,"endTime":1985.365,"body":"all mess it up. I've messed it up countless times. It's very, very"},{"startTime":1985.365,"endTime":1988.805,"body":"hard. There's a very good book on it that I can talk about later,"},{"startTime":1988.805,"endTime":1992.6,"body":"there is a lady who consulted to these people, and it talks about all"},{"startTime":1992.6,"endTime":1995.98,"body":"these different versions. So, it's a really interesting read. But I think, essentially,"},{"startTime":1996.44,"endTime":2000.2,"body":"the business has to become more, I call"},{"startTime":2000.2,"endTime":2003.74,"body":"it professionalizing a business, I think that's the term most people will use. And"},{"startTime":2004.12,"endTime":2007.945,"body":"the people have to change. And, hopefully, some will stay, and some will make"},{"startTime":2007.945,"endTime":2011.545,"body":"that journey with the founder, and some won't. It's an awful time. It really is."},{"startTime":2011.545,"endTime":2015.305,"body":"It should be an exciting time. But as a founder, you"},{"startTime":2015.305,"endTime":2017.705,"body":"get very attached to everything, particularly your early employees."},{"startTime":2019.24,"endTime":2022.84,"body":"Have you seen companies which have been"},{"startTime":2022.84,"endTime":2026.68,"body":"able to retain at least most of their culture"},{"startTime":2026.68,"endTime":2030.36,"body":"as they go through that kind of a transition? Because that's one of the things"},{"startTime":2030.36,"endTime":2034.205,"body":"that I've experienced and know other people who have experienced that as the company grows,"},{"startTime":2034.205,"endTime":2037.725,"body":"people don't feel like they work for the same company. I mean, they"},{"startTime":2037.725,"endTime":2041.485,"body":"work for the same company, but it's not what they signed"},{"startTime":2041.485,"endTime":2045.005,"body":"up for. No. Not really. I mean, if I look at two of the greatest"},{"startTime":2045.005,"endTime":2048.69,"body":"examples in Australia of success, which are Canva and Atlassian,"},{"startTime":2048.69,"endTime":2052.53,"body":"right, those organisations, they are not like working for them at the beginning. They"},{"startTime":2052.53,"endTime":2056.369,"body":"can't possibly be. They have not retained"},{"startTime":2056.369,"endTime":2060.205,"body":"the culture, but they have created a new culture that is just as good,"},{"startTime":2060.205,"endTime":2063.105,"body":"if not better, but in a different manner to different people. So,"},{"startTime":2063.565,"endTime":2067.325,"body":"just because your culture changes doesn't mean it has to be a negative"},{"startTime":2067.325,"endTime":2071.085,"body":"thing. And I think that's probably most people assume that when,"},{"startTime":2071.085,"endTime":2073.805,"body":"oh, it's not like it used to be, it's worse. It's not worse. It's just"},{"startTime":2073.805,"endTime":2077.28,"body":"different. And often, it's better. And I think that you have that shift of people,"},{"startTime":2077.28,"endTime":2080.48,"body":"and Canva's culture is arguably one of the best in Australia, as is the Atlassian's."},{"startTime":2080.48,"endTime":2083.52,"body":"But if you talk to people who were there in the early years, they wouldn't"},{"startTime":2083.52,"endTime":2086.8,"body":"like it there now, and they didn't, and that's why they left. Because they sold"},{"startTime":2086.8,"endTime":2090.48,"body":"out, they turned into a corp. That's not true. The company grew beyond them,"},{"startTime":2090.48,"endTime":2094.205,"body":"and the cultures remain strong, and the cultures remain"},{"startTime":2094.205,"endTime":2097.645,"body":"great, and the cultures are still some of the best out there. So, I think"},{"startTime":2097.645,"endTime":2101.325,"body":"the misconception about a cultural change is that it's negative."},{"startTime":2101.325,"endTime":2105.09,"body":"It's not negative. It's just different. It"},{"startTime":2105.09,"endTime":2108.37,"body":"just doesn't suit everybody. So, I think that's really clear. I mean, I think both"},{"startTime":2108.37,"endTime":2111.81,"body":"those companies have incredible cultures, but they are nothing like they"},{"startTime":2111.81,"endTime":2115.41,"body":"were five years ago. There's always an element. There's an element of things"},{"startTime":2115.41,"endTime":2119.17,"body":"people will have. Like any company, there will be things that, you know, people keep"},{"startTime":2119.17,"endTime":2123.015,"body":"some traditions, but they're limited in what you can do there. And it's"},{"startTime":2123.015,"endTime":2125.575,"body":"good to keep some if they can. I think Canva kept quite a few, which"},{"startTime":2125.575,"endTime":2128.875,"body":"is impressive, but it's a hard thing to do."},{"startTime":2129.974,"endTime":2133.43,"body":"Yeah. So, I guess it's kind of acknowledging that there's going to be a changing"},{"startTime":2133.43,"endTime":2136.81,"body":"culture, but it's whether that new culture can still be a good one."},{"startTime":2137.35,"endTime":2140.49,"body":"Yeah. And I think what both of those organisations did,"},{"startTime":2141.11,"endTime":2144.79,"body":"particularly Canva, was that they were very clear and were"},{"startTime":2144.79,"endTime":2148.335,"body":"communicating this all the way along. It didn't just sort of happen"},{"startTime":2148.335,"endTime":2152.115,"body":"without anyone talking about it, which is like any relationship."},{"startTime":2152.175,"endTime":2155.295,"body":"Right? You know, whether it be a boyfriend, girlfriend, whether it be sibling, whether it"},{"startTime":2155.295,"endTime":2158.974,"body":"be marriage, whether it be work boss, relationships can change, but no one wants to"},{"startTime":2158.974,"endTime":2162.44,"body":"talk about it. You know, it's the elephant in the room. And that's a"},{"startTime":2162.44,"endTime":2166.12,"body":"really bad way, and I'm pretty bad at communicating in"},{"startTime":2166.12,"endTime":2169.96,"body":"relationships, so I know all about this, but if companies can communicate through"},{"startTime":2169.96,"endTime":2173.56,"body":"that and avoid that elephant in the room moment, then they"},{"startTime":2173.56,"endTime":2177.005,"body":"usually are very, very well positioned to"},{"startTime":2177.305,"endTime":2181.065,"body":"maintain a really, really healthy culture, if not, make it better. Yeah. And"},{"startTime":2181.065,"endTime":2184.505,"body":"it's got to be genuine communication, because frankly, and if"},{"startTime":2184.505,"endTime":2188.265,"body":"people see this slick marketing speech when it comes"},{"startTime":2188.265,"endTime":2192.02,"body":"to the CEO presentation, people are going to see through it. No"},{"startTime":2192.02,"endTime":2195.779,"body":"problem. Yeah. That happens when the private equity firms come in. Then,"},{"startTime":2195.779,"endTime":2199.559,"body":"it all changes. And then, you get all the things, everyone goes, 'Yeah.'"},{"startTime":2199.619,"endTime":2202.74,"body":"Nothing's going to change, they say. I don't know why they say that, but they"},{"startTime":2202.74,"endTime":2206.325,"body":"always say that. Picking up on a couple of things you mentioned"},{"startTime":2206.325,"endTime":2209.705,"body":"earlier, job security, which actually really surprised me how"},{"startTime":2210.005,"endTime":2213.785,"body":"there might be more job security in a start-up versus a large company,"},{"startTime":2213.925,"endTime":2217.525,"body":"but also what you were saying about taking responsibility for"},{"startTime":2217.525,"endTime":2220.89,"body":"your career much more, not necessarily expecting"},{"startTime":2221.51,"endTime":2224.47,"body":"that senior person to take you by the hand and"},{"startTime":2224.47,"endTime":2228.31,"body":"lead you through. So, when someone's coming to"},{"startTime":2228.31,"endTime":2231.99,"body":"you and, you know, maybe they don't have experience of working in a"},{"startTime":2231.99,"endTime":2235.135,"body":"start-up environment, but they're interested,"},{"startTime":2235.835,"endTime":2239.194,"body":"how do you advise them to take"},{"startTime":2239.194,"endTime":2242.494,"body":"responsibility for their own career? What can that look like?"},{"startTime":2243.194,"endTime":2246.875,"body":"Look. I think when you're interviewing someone, there's two typical"},{"startTime":2246.875,"endTime":2250.47,"body":"types, if we go into sort of HR talk,"},{"startTime":2250.53,"endTime":2254.23,"body":"there's two typical types of interviews that are structured. One is behavioural"},{"startTime":2254.369,"endTime":2258.13,"body":"questions, and one is situational questions. So, behavioural questions"},{"startTime":2258.13,"endTime":2261.25,"body":"are based on the past. What have you done here? What did you do there?"},{"startTime":2261.25,"endTime":2263.605,"body":"How did you do that? How did you make that grow? What did you do"},{"startTime":2263.605,"endTime":2267.205,"body":"when this person left? Those kinds of things. And they're historical. I think when you're"},{"startTime":2267.205,"endTime":2270.805,"body":"interviewing people for start-ups, situational questions are far more"},{"startTime":2270.805,"endTime":2274.165,"body":"relevant, where you throw a situation to them and ask them what they would"},{"startTime":2274.165,"endTime":2277.97,"body":"do. And I think there's questions that you can"},{"startTime":2277.97,"endTime":2281.41,"body":"throw out to see how someone is going to react in a"},{"startTime":2281.41,"endTime":2281.91,"body":"situation."},{"startTime":2282.77,"endTime":2286.53,"body":"I'm trying to think of a"},{"startTime":2286.53,"endTime":2290.225,"body":"really good example. I'll give you a great example, actually. And this"},{"startTime":2290.225,"endTime":2294.065,"body":"is from many, many moons ago. And I won't name the companies, but"},{"startTime":2294.065,"endTime":2297.825,"body":"I was employed to, there was a merge of two quite large"},{"startTime":2297.825,"endTime":2301.505,"body":"companies. Right? And this is the best I've ever seen situational questions being used. And"},{"startTime":2301.505,"endTime":2304.96,"body":"it was created by Gallup for these two companies. And they were merging, there were"},{"startTime":2304.96,"endTime":2308.32,"body":"two people for every role. And what they didn't want is they didn't want the"},{"startTime":2308.32,"endTime":2311.12,"body":"manager who was going to choose which person was in that role to choose the"},{"startTime":2311.12,"endTime":2313.2,"body":"person that came from the company they were in and not the one they didn't."},{"startTime":2313.2,"endTime":2316.0,"body":"Right? So, interesting to know. So, what they did was they said, 'Right, Steve, can"},{"startTime":2316.0,"endTime":2318.645,"body":"you go and sit in on all the interviews?' I did 400 interviews. It lasted"},{"startTime":2318.645,"endTime":2322.485,"body":"seven months, travelled all over Australia. But the questions"},{"startTime":2322.485,"endTime":2325.045,"body":"that they would ask in their normal interview, and then they had all these questions"},{"startTime":2325.045,"endTime":2328.885,"body":"that I was supposed to ask, and it was really interesting to see how"},{"startTime":2328.885,"endTime":2332.71,"body":"people's brains work. So, it was the questions like, how close should people be"},{"startTime":2332.71,"endTime":2336.23,"body":"at work? That's a pretty ambiguous question. Right? And it wasn't"},{"startTime":2336.23,"endTime":2339.85,"body":"so much the answer. It was just how they interpreted that question. Some"},{"startTime":2339.99,"endTime":2343.53,"body":"people would literally give a measurement, two and a half meters. Some"},{"startTime":2343.75,"endTime":2345.99,"body":"people would say, 'Well, I don't think you should have"},{"startTime":2345.99,"endTime":2349.625,"body":"relationships.' You were actually looking"},{"startTime":2349.765,"endTime":2353.525,"body":"at how they viewed situations. And there was another one that I think was"},{"startTime":2353.525,"endTime":2356.905,"body":"really poignant, which was, you arrive late to work, everybody"},{"startTime":2357.045,"endTime":2360.485,"body":"else is working, you've been at a meeting. What do you do?"},{"startTime":2360.485,"endTime":2364.29,"body":"Now some people would freak out. 'I would never be, like, for work!' They"},{"startTime":2364.29,"endTime":2367.97,"body":"go into this panic. Right? Other people would be, 'Well, if there was someone there"},{"startTime":2367.97,"endTime":2370.29,"body":"that I could tell about the meeting, I'd probably go and tell them like that.'"},{"startTime":2370.29,"endTime":2372.77,"body":"Others would say, 'I just go to my desk.' It was the way that they"},{"startTime":2372.77,"endTime":2376.565,"body":"perceived certain situations, and you can do the same with start-ups. You know, you can"},{"startTime":2376.565,"endTime":2379.845,"body":"say, 'You've been working in the start-up for X amount of time. Your colleague's just"},{"startTime":2379.845,"endTime":2382.885,"body":"been promoted. You know, you've been doing the same job. You've been coming up with"},{"startTime":2382.885,"endTime":2386.725,"body":"the same ideas, but this has happened. How would you behave in that scenario?' And"},{"startTime":2386.725,"endTime":2390.51,"body":"then, from that, you can coach them off the back"},{"startTime":2390.51,"endTime":2394.27,"body":"of that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Can you give an"},{"startTime":2394.27,"endTime":2397.71,"body":"example of, you know, say that you were coaching or"},{"startTime":2397.71,"endTime":2401.47,"body":"advising that person in that situation, how"},{"startTime":2401.47,"endTime":2405.255,"body":"might you approach that? Look, if someone gave an answer that was"},{"startTime":2405.255,"endTime":2409.095,"body":"clearly not going to be suited to a start-up,"},{"startTime":2409.095,"endTime":2412.375,"body":"for example, they would go, 'Well, I would immediately see my superior, and I would"},{"startTime":2412.375,"endTime":2415.517,"body":"probably go and have a conversation with HR.' See you later. You're not going to"},{"startTime":2415.518,"endTime":2418.9,"body":"work in a start-up. Just, you're in the wrong league. Right? So, you just tell"},{"startTime":2418.9,"endTime":2422.42,"body":"them, and you explain to them why. And some people rebuff that, and you may"},{"startTime":2422.42,"endTime":2425.94,"body":"have a conversation. But usually, if they give an answer like that in an interview"},{"startTime":2425.94,"endTime":2429.7,"body":"for a start-up, it's not so much their reaction, it means"},{"startTime":2429.7,"endTime":2432.579,"body":"they haven't thought about the fact that there isn't an HR, and there isn't a"},{"startTime":2432.579,"endTime":2435.925,"body":"process. And so, they haven't thought about it, they're definitely not ready."},{"startTime":2436.545,"endTime":2440.224,"body":"Now some people will give you an answer, they'll say, 'Well, normally, I would do"},{"startTime":2440.224,"endTime":2443.525,"body":"this, but I obviously understand in start-ups, they wouldn't have that."},{"startTime":2444.145,"endTime":2446.945,"body":"I don't really know. I guess I'd speak to the founder. Is that what I"},{"startTime":2446.945,"endTime":2450.3,"body":"do?' They'd almost start a conversation with you, and then you can start to"},{"startTime":2450.3,"endTime":2454.14,"body":"talk to them about how that scenario might pan"},{"startTime":2454.14,"endTime":2457.98,"body":"out in a start-up. So, really the answer"},{"startTime":2457.98,"endTime":2460.78,"body":"defines how the coaching would go. That doesn't even mean you're going to put them"},{"startTime":2460.78,"endTime":2464.275,"body":"forward for the role, but it prepares you to be able to help them. Once"},{"startTime":2464.275,"endTime":2467.655,"body":"they're into a company, or they're getting close to an offer, you"},{"startTime":2468.035,"endTime":2471.795,"body":"would have had, or I would have had many conversations about where they are"},{"startTime":2471.795,"endTime":2475.42,"body":"as an early-stage starter. One of the things we have often"},{"startTime":2475.42,"endTime":2478.7,"body":"done is take videos of founders talking about what it's like to work at their"},{"startTime":2478.7,"endTime":2482.46,"body":"start-ups. They get a lot from listening to that, and you ask"},{"startTime":2482.46,"endTime":2485.74,"body":"them what they think about that. And, again, their answers will give you an idea"},{"startTime":2485.74,"endTime":2489.465,"body":"of how you can maybe, not necessarily correct them, but give them an"},{"startTime":2489.465,"endTime":2492.825,"body":"idea about how that might work out in a company of this size and how"},{"startTime":2492.825,"endTime":2496.185,"body":"that might change as it grows. So, let's"},{"startTime":2496.185,"endTime":2499.405,"body":"finish with someone who has worked"},{"startTime":2500.059,"endTime":2503.52,"body":"in corporate. They've never worked in a start-up before."},{"startTime":2503.819,"endTime":2507.66,"body":"And they kind of like the sound of it. They've listened"},{"startTime":2507.66,"endTime":2510.96,"body":"to this conversation, they're thinking, this sounds like something,"},{"startTime":2511.42,"endTime":2514.995,"body":"this is something that could interest me. And so they go, 'Steve,"},{"startTime":2514.995,"endTime":2518.515,"body":"I'm thinking that I might want to work for a start-up.'"},{"startTime":2518.515,"endTime":2522.135,"body":"What's the one piece of advice that"},{"startTime":2522.435,"endTime":2526.195,"body":"you would give them above all else? It's funny, I get about"},{"startTime":2526.195,"endTime":2529.81,"body":"20 of those emails or LinkedIn messages every day. Sometimes a"},{"startTime":2529.81,"endTime":2533.57,"body":"lot more, actually. There isn't a singular piece of advice. It would"},{"startTime":2533.57,"endTime":2537.03,"body":"have to be a question. The first question I would ask them is, what"},{"startTime":2537.49,"endTime":2540.95,"body":"do you know about start-ups? Do you know anyone that works at them? Based"},{"startTime":2541.345,"endTime":2544.945,"body":"off of that, I would usually tell them to go and do some research. The"},{"startTime":2544.945,"endTime":2547.505,"body":"first thing I would say is, look, do you have any friends who work for"},{"startTime":2547.505,"endTime":2550.965,"body":"start-ups? No. Okay. Why do you want to work for a start-up? Go"},{"startTime":2551.265,"endTime":2553.984,"body":"and do some reading. Come back to me. Tell me what you think it's like"},{"startTime":2553.984,"endTime":2557.04,"body":"to. So, I'll get them to go and do some research. Some of them you"},{"startTime":2557.04,"endTime":2560.32,"body":"never hear from again. If they are looking for a start-up, you say, which one?"},{"startTime":2560.32,"endTime":2564.08,"body":"Generally, it's not a start-up. It's like Canva. And Canva's like a billion-dollar"},{"startTime":2564.08,"endTime":2567.38,"body":"company. It's not a start-up. So, let's talk about that. So,"},{"startTime":2567.44,"endTime":2571.055,"body":"really the first piece of advice is you've got to do your research."},{"startTime":2571.055,"endTime":2574.815,"body":"Listen to this episode, obviously, because this episode has got lots of information"},{"startTime":2574.815,"endTime":2578.575,"body":"about it. But I think, actually like you would with anything"},{"startTime":2578.575,"endTime":2580.895,"body":"else, if you were going to go and buy a car, if you were going"},{"startTime":2580.895,"endTime":2583.599,"body":"to go on holiday to Vietnam, you're going to go and do some reading and"},{"startTime":2583.599,"endTime":2587.44,"body":"some research. And there are countless blogs out there, there are countless podcasts. My gosh,"},{"startTime":2587.44,"endTime":2590.799,"body":"there's so many podcasts that talk about what it's like. Go"},{"startTime":2591.76,"endTime":2595.599,"body":"and do that research and see what it is that appeals"},{"startTime":2595.599,"endTime":2598.775,"body":"to you about it, and have a think about yourself, and"},{"startTime":2599.395,"endTime":2603.155,"body":"say, 'In my current job, what do I like the most? What do"},{"startTime":2603.155,"endTime":2606.595,"body":"I hate the most? Do I love the structure, or do I hate the structure?"},{"startTime":2606.595,"endTime":2609.315,"body":"Do I love the fact that I feel like I have no impact, or do"},{"startTime":2609.315,"endTime":2611.73,"body":"I hate the point that I have no impact? Do I love the steady income?'"},{"startTime":2611.73,"endTime":2615.569,"body":"You know, all those questions. Ask yourself those questions and see if you can"},{"startTime":2615.569,"endTime":2619.41,"body":"work out where you feel you should fit, and then come back and tell me"},{"startTime":2619.41,"endTime":2623.089,"body":"why. That's kind of what I normally do. Because I can't have that conversation"},{"startTime":2623.089,"endTime":2626.694,"body":"for too long with everyone. It would be my whole day. So, I usually"},{"startTime":2626.694,"endTime":2629.994,"body":"push them off to try and go and get them to do research. And"},{"startTime":2630.535,"endTime":2634.134,"body":"the ones that do come back are often, you know, there's a good amount, but"},{"startTime":2634.134,"endTime":2637.815,"body":"most, probably eight out of 10, I never hear from again. Awesome. I"},{"startTime":2637.815,"endTime":2640.45,"body":"think you were going to mention a book. I'd love to know what that is"},{"startTime":2640.45,"endTime":2644.05,"body":"so I can put it in the show notes. There's two"},{"startTime":2644.05,"endTime":2647.41,"body":"books I want to mention. One is called Start-up to Scale-Up, which"},{"startTime":2647.41,"endTime":2650.71,"body":"I think is possibly one of the greatest books to"},{"startTime":2651.25,"endTime":2654.885,"body":"read to understand the journey of going through a start-up"},{"startTime":2654.885,"endTime":2658.645,"body":"to a scale-up. And it talks about this lady who was in Silicon Valley,"},{"startTime":2658.645,"endTime":2661.285,"body":"I think she was, she was over in the US, and she advised a whole"},{"startTime":2661.285,"endTime":2664.965,"body":"bunch of different founders who went through that journey of start-up to"},{"startTime":2664.965,"endTime":2668.78,"body":"scale-up and how hard it is. And she goes into quite a"},{"startTime":2668.78,"endTime":2672.46,"body":"lot of detail, but it's lots of short stories. So, it's very difficult to"},{"startTime":2672.46,"endTime":2676.06,"body":"say this is how it is, because everyone's so different. This gives"},{"startTime":2676.06,"endTime":2679.9,"body":"you probably 30 or 40 different examples. So, you get a"},{"startTime":2679.9,"endTime":2683.585,"body":"real feel for, one, the different founder personalities that are"},{"startTime":2683.645,"endTime":2687.484,"body":"out there, and two, the way they approach this journey of going from complete unstructured"},{"startTime":2687.484,"endTime":2691.325,"body":"chaos to structured scaling business. So, that, I think, is probably"},{"startTime":2691.325,"endTime":2694.765,"body":"one of the greatest books. Another book I just think everybody should read, I've"},{"startTime":2694.765,"endTime":2698.589,"body":"just finished reading it, it's by Dr Benjamin Hardy, who I just"},{"startTime":2698.589,"endTime":2702.19,"body":"think is an incredible man, if anyone has not looked at him, look at him"},{"startTime":2702.19,"endTime":2704.91,"body":"on YouTube, look at him anywhere, but he's got this book called The Gap and"},{"startTime":2704.91,"endTime":2708.75,"body":"the Gain. And the Gap and the Gain talks about how you view"},{"startTime":2708.75,"endTime":2712.585,"body":"yourself and your future self. And I"},{"startTime":2712.585,"endTime":2715.545,"body":"won't go into too much. It's all psychology. It's one of the most interesting psychological"},{"startTime":2715.545,"endTime":2719.385,"body":"books I've read, but also one of the"},{"startTime":2719.385,"endTime":2722.685,"body":"simplest. Anyone can understand it. And it's just"},{"startTime":2723.61,"endTime":2727.37,"body":"fascinating. I would listen to it because he actually reads it on Audible."},{"startTime":2727.37,"endTime":2730.57,"body":"I prefer listening to books when the authors read them. I don't like it when"},{"startTime":2730.57,"endTime":2734.25,"body":"they don't. And you get a lot of extra sneaky material. But The Gap and"},{"startTime":2734.25,"endTime":2738.01,"body":"the Gain will probably change your view of everything you want to"},{"startTime":2738.01,"endTime":2741.505,"body":"achieve in your life, but it's particularly relevant to the start-up world."},{"startTime":2742.785,"endTime":2746.565,"body":"And if someone wants to find you or find your company,"},{"startTime":2746.625,"endTime":2749.365,"body":"where would you like to send them? I'm everywhere."},{"startTime":2750.305,"endTime":2753.95,"body":"Go on to LinkedIn. I'm everywhere. We produce a lot of content. Look, I think"},{"startTime":2753.95,"endTime":2757.31,"body":"now we've just about got, although we're in the middle of redoing it, obviously, LinkedIn,"},{"startTime":2757.31,"endTime":2760.91,"body":"you can find me on LinkedIn, Steve Grace, but thenudgegroup.com is"},{"startTime":2760.91,"endTime":2764.575,"body":"probably the best website. So, thenudgegroup.com, And"},{"startTime":2764.575,"endTime":2768.255,"body":"all the different things we do are on that page in places. And I think"},{"startTime":2768.255,"endTime":2771.875,"body":"you can also even book an appointment with me on there. Fantastic."},{"startTime":2771.935,"endTime":2775.234,"body":"Well, Steve, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your expertise."},{"startTime":2775.855,"endTime":2777.075,"body":"My absolute pleasure."},{"startTime":2912.035,"endTime":2915.386,"body":"All right. Hope you enjoyed the interview with Steve Grace of The Nudge Group. The"},{"startTime":2915.387,"endTime":2917.27,"body":"thing that most surprised me in this interview was when Steve said that working for"},{"startTime":2917.27,"endTime":2918.214,"body":"a start-up is not particularly high risk, at least when it comes to redundancy. His"},{"startTime":2918.214,"endTime":2921.51,"body":"view, his experience is that there's no greater risk of redundancy working for a start-up"},{"startTime":2921.51,"endTime":2924.081,"body":"than there is working for a large corporate. In fact, there's a greater risk of"},{"startTime":2924.082,"endTime":2925.53,"body":"redundancy if you work for a big company. That's definitely one of the biggest objections"},{"startTime":2925.829,"endTime":2928.81,"body":"that I sometimes hear about whether or not to choose to work for a start-up."},{"startTime":2929.075,"endTime":2931.555,"body":"So, it was interesting hearing what he had to say on that subject. That said,"},{"startTime":2931.555,"endTime":2934.195,"body":"clearly working for a start-up can come with an added level of personal responsibility. The"},{"startTime":2934.195,"endTime":2937.875,"body":"fact that it is so changeable, the fact that depending on the stage that it's"},{"startTime":2937.875,"endTime":2827.755,"body":"at, you can be expected to muck in and try out lots of different things,"},{"startTime":2827.755,"endTime":2830.92,"body":"means that you have much greater control and flexibility, and so"},{"startTime":2831.319,"endTime":2835.079,"body":"responsibility for the shape of your own career. Now arguably, you"},{"startTime":2835.079,"endTime":2838.619,"body":"should have that responsibility for your career anyway,"},{"startTime":2839.319,"endTime":2842.839,"body":"and if you go back to episode 187 and"},{"startTime":2842.839,"endTime":2846.345,"body":"my interview with Louise Lapish, then we"},{"startTime":2846.345,"endTime":2850.045,"body":"talk a lot more there about taking personal responsibility for your own"},{"startTime":2850.105,"endTime":2853.945,"body":"career. But perhaps this is something which is amplified, and perhaps it's"},{"startTime":2853.945,"endTime":2857.645,"body":"something where there's more opportunity if you work in a"},{"startTime":2858.07,"endTime":2861.75,"body":"start-up environment. The show notes for this episode are at changeworklife.com/194, that's changeworklife.com/194. And"},{"startTime":2861.75,"endTime":2865.05,"body":"as we enter the final stretch of 2024, I"},{"startTime":2865.83,"endTime":2868.17,"body":"need your ideas for topics to cover next year."},{"startTime":2870.15,"endTime":2873.915,"body":"As you think"},{"startTime":2873.915,"endTime":2877.595,"body":"about your own career over the next 12 months, what comes"},{"startTime":2877.595,"endTime":2881.355,"body":"up for you? What do you perceive are the biggest"},{"startTime":2881.355,"endTime":2885.115,"body":"challenges for you? Where, if we were having a sit-down and a coffee together"},{"startTime":2885.115,"endTime":2888.82,"body":"at the end of 2025, would you like to be able to"},{"startTime":2888.82,"endTime":2892.6,"body":"report that you were at? What might get in the way of you getting"},{"startTime":2893.14,"endTime":2896.6,"body":"there? Let me know the challenges you're facing, and we'll see what"},{"startTime":2897.14,"endTime":2900.5,"body":"we can do together to overcome those. And you can let me know using"},{"startTime":2900.5,"endTime":2903.315,"body":"the contact form on my website changeworklife.com/contact, that's"},{"startTime":2903.315,"endTime":2906.515,"body":"changeworklife.com/contact."},{"startTime":2906.515,"endTime":2784.59,"body":"We've got two episodes left before the end of the year and just before the"},{"startTime":2784.59,"endTime":2788.35,"body":"holiday season starts."},{"startTime":2788.35,"endTime":2792.125,"body":"I've got one of my career stories for you. It's with someone who identified"},{"startTime":2792.125,"endTime":2795.325,"body":"a need in his"},{"startTime":2795.325,"endTime":2798.464,"body":"particular industry and"},{"startTime":2799.005,"endTime":2802.765,"body":"built a business around that need. To hear the"},{"startTime":2802.765,"endTime":2805.96,"body":"full story, make sure"},{"startTime":2805.96,"endTime":2809.48,"body":"you're subscribed to the show so you never miss an"},{"startTime":2809.48,"endTime":2813.08,"body":"episode, and I can't wait to see you in two weeks' time."},{"startTime":2813.08,"endTime":2813.64,"body":"Cheers. Bye."}]}