{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.08,"endTime":3.379,"body":"How can you play the game if you don't know what the rules are?"},{"startTime":3.84,"endTime":7.52,"body":"If you're neurodiverse, then things which may appear obvious to"},{"startTime":7.52,"endTime":11.28,"body":"many people might not appear so obvious to you. So,"},{"startTime":11.28,"endTime":14.895,"body":"how do you handle that in the context of job interviews? That's what we're"},{"startTime":14.895,"endTime":18.655,"body":"going to talk about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change"},{"startTime":18.655,"endTime":19.475,"body":"Work Life."},{"startTime":35.02,"endTime":38.7,"body":"Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast where we're all about"},{"startTime":38.7,"endTime":42.435,"body":"beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. I'm a career"},{"startTime":42.435,"endTime":45.955,"body":"coach, and in each episode, my guests and I bring you tips,"},{"startTime":45.955,"endTime":49.555,"body":"strategies and stories to help you enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working"},{"startTime":49.555,"endTime":53.015,"body":"life. Job interviews are nerve wracking enough,"},{"startTime":53.315,"endTime":56.97,"body":"but what about if you're neurodiverse as well? How"},{"startTime":56.97,"endTime":60.49,"body":"do you identify and manage any challenges that your particular"},{"startTime":60.49,"endTime":64.33,"body":"neurodiversity might present? Especially if it makes you less"},{"startTime":64.33,"endTime":68.11,"body":"attuned to the rules of the game commonly understood"},{"startTime":68.25,"endTime":71.955,"body":"by those who might be more neurotypical. To answer these questions and"},{"startTime":71.955,"endTime":75.795,"body":"more, I'm delighted to be joined by Ramon Santillan. A former tax"},{"startTime":75.795,"endTime":79.555,"body":"consultant, Ramon is now an interview coach who helps his clients be"},{"startTime":79.555,"endTime":83.25,"body":"more charismatic, look and feel more confident, and brag"},{"startTime":83.25,"endTime":87.09,"body":"about themselves during interviews. Ramon, welcome to the show. Thank"},{"startTime":87.09,"endTime":90.79,"body":"you for having me. Tax consultant interview coach."},{"startTime":90.85,"endTime":94.69,"body":"How did that happen? I've always been really good"},{"startTime":94.69,"endTime":98.335,"body":"at interviewing. I'm very much an introvert. But at some"},{"startTime":98.335,"endTime":101.635,"body":"point in my career when I was in college, I didn't have the greatest"},{"startTime":102.015,"endTime":105.535,"body":"grades, the highest GPA, I was a first generation college"},{"startTime":105.535,"endTime":108.975,"body":"student, I didn't have any connections, my parents didn't have any"},{"startTime":108.975,"endTime":112.81,"body":"connections. And when I went to the career services office at my"},{"startTime":112.81,"endTime":116.429,"body":"school, I asked, 'How do I get a job?'"},{"startTime":116.729,"endTime":120.409,"body":"I took the internship class that I'm supposed to take, I'm doing the"},{"startTime":120.409,"endTime":124.17,"body":"resume, but when I see my peers' or my"},{"startTime":124.17,"endTime":127.695,"body":"classmates' resumes, I wouldn't call them peers because maybe they were more advanced than me,"},{"startTime":127.695,"endTime":131.455,"body":"I see that they have experience working for their parents' company, or"},{"startTime":131.455,"endTime":135.295,"body":"they got an internship before because their neighbour hired"},{"startTime":135.295,"endTime":139.055,"body":"them. I have work experience, but it's not related to accounting. And they"},{"startTime":139.055,"endTime":142.469,"body":"say, 'Well, just try really hard.' And I was like, 'Well, that's"},{"startTime":142.469,"endTime":146.069,"body":"not really answering my question. I can't just try harder.' So, what I did, I"},{"startTime":146.069,"endTime":148.409,"body":"really prepared. So, this is about"},{"startTime":148.709,"endTime":152.469,"body":"September 2001, which is, I guess here in"},{"startTime":152.469,"endTime":156.215,"body":"the US, we know that September 11 happened. Economy"},{"startTime":156.215,"endTime":159.415,"body":"went down, it got really hard to find jobs. And I can't"},{"startTime":159.415,"endTime":163.175,"body":"compete against these kids, these other students, so I said, what can"},{"startTime":163.175,"endTime":166.629,"body":"I do? I can't get a higher GPA in two weeks, I can't"},{"startTime":166.629,"endTime":170.39,"body":"get connections in two weeks, my parents can't make connections. What"},{"startTime":170.39,"endTime":173.349,"body":"do I do? And I was like, okay, I have to outsmart them. So, I"},{"startTime":173.349,"endTime":177.11,"body":"outsmarted everyone else by just preparing better"},{"startTime":177.11,"endTime":180.95,"body":"than everyone else. Not working harder. Not doing the same thing harder than everyone"},{"startTime":180.95,"endTime":184.345,"body":"else. Doing something different than everyone else better."},{"startTime":184.885,"endTime":188.345,"body":"So, again, 2001, not a lot of companies had websites,"},{"startTime":188.485,"endTime":191.445,"body":"LinkedIn wasn't around. Some"},{"startTime":191.525,"endTime":195.01,"body":"people were looking for jobs on a newspaper, and some of them were kind of"},{"startTime":195.011,"endTime":198.2,"body":"looking on the websites because that was a new thing. So, I did"},{"startTime":198.66,"endTime":202.34,"body":"that, I did research where I could, I looked up books. I didn't"},{"startTime":202.34,"endTime":206.144,"body":"look up online. Information wasn't online. I looked up books on the"},{"startTime":206.144,"endTime":209.905,"body":"companies I was interested in, newspaper articles. And when I went"},{"startTime":209.905,"endTime":213.424,"body":"to the interview, again, I didn't have any connections, my GPA was very, very low,"},{"startTime":213.424,"endTime":216.944,"body":"I wasn't even in the right accounting programme, and I still got the job. I"},{"startTime":216.944,"endTime":220.64,"body":"beat 350 other people for that one job. When I was"},{"startTime":220.64,"endTime":224.48,"body":"walking out of the interview room, the interviewer patted"},{"startTime":224.48,"endTime":227.599,"body":"me on the back and said, 'I can't wait to see you in the office.'"},{"startTime":227.599,"endTime":230.814,"body":"And that's when I knew I was going to get the job. And again, what"},{"startTime":230.814,"endTime":234.575,"body":"was the difference between me and the other candidates? I had all the disadvantages, what"},{"startTime":234.575,"endTime":238.114,"body":"people consider disadvantages. I didn't have any connections. I didn't have"},{"startTime":238.415,"endTime":242.114,"body":"high grades. I didn't have prior related work experience. But what I"},{"startTime":242.174,"endTime":245.88,"body":"did is, I was prepared more and better prepared than everyone"},{"startTime":245.88,"endTime":249.42,"body":"else. So, that started the path into"},{"startTime":249.88,"endTime":252.76,"body":"accounting, but I knew that was a difference."},{"startTime":252.76,"endTime":256.519,"body":"I didn't have to be an extrovert all the time."},{"startTime":256.519,"endTime":260.204,"body":"I could be an extrovert when I needed it, when"},{"startTime":260.264,"endTime":263.145,"body":"I need to talk about myself. Not brag, but just to retell the people"},{"startTime":263.145,"endTime":266.745,"body":"why it benefited them to have me in this part of their company."},{"startTime":266.745,"endTime":270.185,"body":"After that, I started helping my friends, the sister in college,"},{"startTime":270.185,"endTime":273.74,"body":"and then friends of friends, and then friends of acquaintances, and"},{"startTime":274.04,"endTime":277.639,"body":"strangers started calling me. And I was still doing this just for fun,"},{"startTime":277.639,"endTime":281.4,"body":"on my free time. And at some point, I didn't have any"},{"startTime":281.4,"endTime":284.975,"body":"more time. I said, well, if someone calls me, I'm going to tell them that"},{"startTime":284.975,"endTime":288.575,"body":"I'm going to charge them $25 and make them go away. So, I don't I"},{"startTime":288.575,"endTime":291.295,"body":"don't have to say no to them. They'll have to say no to themselves. So,"},{"startTime":291.295,"endTime":295.135,"body":"it worked for about a month, and then a month later,"},{"startTime":295.135,"endTime":298.655,"body":"someone calls me and says, 'I heard you help people prepare for interviews.'"},{"startTime":298.655,"endTime":302.21,"body":"And I said, 'Sure, it'll be $25.' The person said, 'Okay.'"},{"startTime":302.21,"endTime":306.05,"body":"And I was, oh, okay. Well, I guess I have to help them now, because"},{"startTime":306.05,"endTime":309.57,"body":"I said I would do it for $25. So, that's how I started the business,"},{"startTime":309.57,"endTime":313.405,"body":"but itself, the process and the learning, that started when"},{"startTime":313.405,"endTime":316.705,"body":"I was in college. And"},{"startTime":316.925,"endTime":320.145,"body":"neurodiversity, how did you come to specialise"},{"startTime":320.525,"endTime":324.205,"body":"in coaching through interviews people who are"},{"startTime":324.205,"endTime":327.65,"body":"neurodiverse? Many years later, after I had"},{"startTime":327.87,"endTime":331.55,"body":"a proper business, I got a call from a parent. Like many"},{"startTime":331.55,"endTime":335.23,"body":"other parents before that, she called me about her student at college"},{"startTime":335.23,"endTime":338.59,"body":"looking for an interview, looking for a co-op, what we call them in the United"},{"startTime":338.59,"endTime":342.265,"body":"States, for internship. And, I said, sure, I can definitely help him."},{"startTime":342.265,"endTime":346.045,"body":"And she said, 'Well, here's the thing, he is on the autism spectrum.' And"},{"startTime":346.425,"endTime":349.065,"body":"she said, 'Do you know about that?' I'm like, I'm not really sure. What is"},{"startTime":349.065,"endTime":352.845,"body":"it? Well, he has trouble with communication sometimes. He's"},{"startTime":353.24,"endTime":356.84,"body":"very smart, very, very educated, but those interviews really messes"},{"startTime":356.84,"endTime":360.68,"body":"him up. He doesn't know how to talk about himself, and"},{"startTime":360.68,"endTime":364.12,"body":"he doesn't maintain eye contact, which is one of the things common for people on"},{"startTime":364.12,"endTime":367.855,"body":"the autism spectrum. And obviously, that's a key thing to do during the interview. And"},{"startTime":367.855,"endTime":371.215,"body":"I said, well, I'll do my best, and we'll see what we can do. Luckily,"},{"startTime":371.215,"endTime":374.575,"body":"I say luckily, but it really was a lot of work on both our sides,"},{"startTime":374.575,"endTime":378.335,"body":"from my side and my client's side. And 45 days later,"},{"startTime":378.335,"endTime":382.06,"body":"he had two job offers. And these weren't just some little"},{"startTime":382.06,"endTime":385.74,"body":"computer repair shop place. These were Fortune 500 companies with"},{"startTime":385.74,"endTime":389.58,"body":"great benefits, great growth opportunities. And"},{"startTime":389.58,"endTime":392.955,"body":"I think the best part for my client was that these were"},{"startTime":393.514,"endTime":397.354,"body":"not some higher initiative. These were regular, quote-unquote,"},{"startTime":397.595,"endTime":401.115,"body":"regular jobs. He was competing against everyone else."},{"startTime":401.115,"endTime":404.634,"body":"And somehow, he beat them. I mean, somehow,"},{"startTime":404.634,"endTime":408.18,"body":"people say, 'Well, it was a miracle.' Maybe it was a miracle, but"},{"startTime":408.18,"endTime":412.02,"body":"there's a lot of work put into preparing for the interview, doing research"},{"startTime":412.02,"endTime":415.62,"body":"on the people, knowing how to better present himself. Not sell himself, present"},{"startTime":415.62,"endTime":419.46,"body":"himself to these people. Because mom called me back at the end when we were"},{"startTime":419.46,"endTime":423.245,"body":"done, crying, saying, 'You made a miracle. You"},{"startTime":423.245,"endTime":426.525,"body":"allowed me to have dreams I never allowed myself to have. I don't have to"},{"startTime":426.525,"endTime":430.365,"body":"worry what's going to happen to him when I'm not here anymore, because he"},{"startTime":430.365,"endTime":434.125,"body":"can get a good job, a real job, pays great,"},{"startTime":434.125,"endTime":437.96,"body":"a career progression, he can support himself. He"},{"startTime":437.96,"endTime":441.5,"body":"might even be able to support a family at some point. And I might"},{"startTime":441.96,"endTime":445.24,"body":"even have grandkids. He might decide to have kids, and that means I have to"},{"startTime":445.24,"endTime":449.065,"body":"have grandkids. That's a dream I never allowed myself to have, and you've given me"},{"startTime":449.065,"endTime":452.665,"body":"that dream.' So, then she explained who she was, and her name's Dr Nevada Reed,"},{"startTime":452.665,"endTime":456.185,"body":"and she is an expert, she has a clinic specialised in autism,"},{"startTime":456.185,"endTime":459.865,"body":"and she explained to me more in detail what it really was. And at"},{"startTime":459.865,"endTime":463.41,"body":"the end, she just said, 'There's a lot of those students like my son,"},{"startTime":463.41,"endTime":467.09,"body":"Alden, who are very smart, very educated, very"},{"startTime":467.09,"endTime":470.849,"body":"talented. They just can't get through the interview process, which"},{"startTime":470.849,"endTime":472.789,"body":"is the essential part of the"},{"startTime":473.41,"endTime":476.61,"body":"job search process. They"},{"startTime":478.005,"endTime":481.845,"body":"have a GPA, everything, but just when they get to interview, they"},{"startTime":481.845,"endTime":485.525,"body":"really can't get past that. You should look into that.' So I did, and I"},{"startTime":485.525,"endTime":488.885,"body":"started working with more people who were on the spectrum."},{"startTime":488.885,"endTime":492.58,"body":"From there, we started learning more about it and got into"},{"startTime":492.58,"endTime":496.34,"body":"neurodiversity. So, it's not just people on the spectrum. There's all kinds"},{"startTime":496.34,"endTime":500.02,"body":"of, I guess, things that people might have that"},{"startTime":500.02,"endTime":503.32,"body":"make them neurodiverse. And I work with them, create"},{"startTime":503.815,"endTime":507.655,"body":"a programme that's customised for that specific person, so that way when they go"},{"startTime":507.655,"endTime":511.355,"body":"interview, they can get that job. Fantastic."},{"startTime":511.575,"endTime":514.715,"body":"That's an amazing story. Okay. So, I"},{"startTime":515.095,"endTime":518.93,"body":"know that this is a huge topic, and I'm hoping I'm not going"},{"startTime":518.93,"endTime":521.41,"body":"to ask you an impossible question, but can you give us a"},{"startTime":521.41,"endTime":524.95,"body":"two-minute introduction to neurodiversity?"},{"startTime":525.17,"endTime":528.23,"body":"What it is? What does it mean? Neurodiversity,"},{"startTime":528.805,"endTime":532.645,"body":"from what I understand and what I've been told by my"},{"startTime":532.645,"endTime":536.325,"body":"clients, is seeing the world from a different perspective than"},{"startTime":536.325,"endTime":540.005,"body":"most other people. So, like I mentioned, neurodiversity doesn't mean just people"},{"startTime":540.005,"endTime":543.545,"body":"who are on the autism spectrum. It might be people who"},{"startTime":543.95,"endTime":546.91,"body":"have attention deficit disorder. It might be people who have sometimes even"},{"startTime":547.63,"endTime":551.07,"body":"anxiety, severe anxiety. Those are the kinds of things that"},{"startTime":551.07,"endTime":554.61,"body":"I've helped my clients with. A lot"},{"startTime":554.91,"endTime":558.735,"body":"of people think that maybe someone who's neurodiverse, you can tell that they're"},{"startTime":558.735,"endTime":562.575,"body":"neurodiverse. And I don't know if you heard this, but you"},{"startTime":562.575,"endTime":566.415,"body":"can't tell when someone's neurodiverse. A lot of people have had some clients who were"},{"startTime":566.415,"endTime":569.935,"body":"older, and when I say older, in their fifties, and"},{"startTime":569.935,"endTime":573.67,"body":"they were recently diagnosed being on the autism spectrum"},{"startTime":573.67,"endTime":577.21,"body":"or something else. And they say, 'Wow, I just"},{"startTime":577.43,"endTime":580.87,"body":"thought I was weird my whole life, but it turns out there's"},{"startTime":580.87,"endTime":584.665,"body":"something different about me. And that's why I saw things in"},{"startTime":584.665,"endTime":588.505,"body":"a different way, or certain things bothered me, even"},{"startTime":588.505,"endTime":592.265,"body":"the shirts I wore bothered me. And now I know"},{"startTime":592.265,"endTime":596.105,"body":"why.' And a lot of people might think,"},{"startTime":596.105,"endTime":599.92,"body":"oh, that's such a bad thing to know that you are neurodiverse. But"},{"startTime":599.92,"endTime":603.76,"body":"to a lot of my clients, knowing that they're neurodiverse is a big relief,"},{"startTime":603.76,"endTime":607.52,"body":"because now they know why they think different or they feel different about some things."},{"startTime":607.52,"endTime":610.74,"body":"And they can say, 'Oh, okay. Well, I'm different, but"},{"startTime":610.88,"endTime":614.48,"body":"I'm not broken. I just think different, and that's fine."},{"startTime":614.48,"endTime":618.125,"body":"That's allowed.' So, that's what I see from"},{"startTime":618.125,"endTime":621.565,"body":"what my clients tell me neurodiversity is. Just seeing the world"},{"startTime":621.565,"endTime":625.165,"body":"from a different perspective than most people don't, most neurotypical"},{"startTime":625.165,"endTime":628.62,"body":"people don't. One of the things I've learned,"},{"startTime":628.62,"endTime":632.08,"body":"I've studied neurodiversity a little bit, is that"},{"startTime":632.78,"endTime":636.46,"body":"everyone's experience is different. And I'm conscious that we"},{"startTime":636.46,"endTime":640.16,"body":"probably will be talking a little bit in generalisations,"},{"startTime":641.285,"endTime":644.985,"body":"and I may well ask questions which someone"},{"startTime":645.285,"endTime":649.125,"body":"listening to this thinks are inappropriate, or they don't represent"},{"startTime":649.125,"endTime":652.565,"body":"them. And so, I just want to flag that this is"},{"startTime":652.565,"endTime":656.199,"body":"a very complex subject, and"},{"startTime":656.42,"endTime":660.019,"body":"what we're going to talk about may apply to some people, may resonate with some"},{"startTime":660.019,"endTime":663.3,"body":"people, but everyone has their own experience, everyone has their own"},{"startTime":663.3,"endTime":667.139,"body":"way this may or may not show up. So, I'm just going to mention"},{"startTime":667.139,"endTime":670.885,"body":"that just in case anyone listening to these thinks, 'Well, that doesn't apply to"},{"startTime":670.885,"endTime":674.245,"body":"me at all.' So, when it comes specifically"},{"startTime":674.245,"endTime":678.085,"body":"to job interviews, what are some"},{"startTime":678.085,"endTime":681.464,"body":"of the challenges that you've seen neurodiverse candidates might"},{"startTime":681.524,"endTime":685.16,"body":"face? Things that may seem normal. And"},{"startTime":685.16,"endTime":689.0,"body":"frankly, they're difficult for a lot of people."},{"startTime":689.0,"endTime":692.68,"body":"Maintaining eye contact during the interview, a lot of people don't do"},{"startTime":692.68,"endTime":696.28,"body":"that. Especially now in our world of Zoom meetings or"},{"startTime":696.28,"endTime":700.045,"body":"even our cell phones, sometimes we talk to people by looking"},{"startTime":700.045,"endTime":703.565,"body":"at our phone. So, one thing I've noticed with my neurotypical clients,"},{"startTime":703.565,"endTime":706.925,"body":"neurodiverse clients, excuse me, and neurotypical, is"},{"startTime":706.925,"endTime":710.69,"body":"the lack of eye contact. For neurotypical, if you're"},{"startTime":710.91,"endTime":714.27,"body":"not looking at someone when you're talking to them, they might take that as a"},{"startTime":714.27,"endTime":717.87,"body":"sign of disrespect. They might take that as a sign that you're lying to them,"},{"startTime":717.87,"endTime":721.47,"body":"that you're not being honest. Obviously, that's a torpedo during"},{"startTime":721.47,"endTime":725.245,"body":"an interview. When someone's asking you, 'Tell me about"},{"startTime":725.245,"endTime":729.005,"body":"that one project you did', and you're looking at the ground, they say, 'Well,"},{"startTime":729.005,"endTime":731.725,"body":"why are they looking at the ground? Why aren't they looking at me?' So, that's"},{"startTime":731.725,"endTime":735.565,"body":"something I notice all the time. I"},{"startTime":735.565,"endTime":738.959,"body":"know we're talking about neurodiversity, but there's a lot of things that"},{"startTime":738.959,"endTime":742.8,"body":"everyone does during an interview, and they might be harder for certain people. I'm"},{"startTime":742.8,"endTime":745.279,"body":"not talking just neurodiverse people, sometimes cultural."},{"startTime":745.6,"endTime":749.36,"body":"I'll tell you a simple example. I'm from the United States, from"},{"startTime":749.36,"endTime":752.955,"body":"Texas, so Southern United States. Here, we're raised"},{"startTime":753.195,"endTime":756.415,"body":"calling people ma'am and sir or mister Smith,"},{"startTime":756.875,"endTime":760.715,"body":"missus Rodriguez, first and last name,"},{"startTime":760.715,"endTime":763.835,"body":"anyone who's older than you, just a little bit older. But in some parts of"},{"startTime":763.835,"endTime":767.339,"body":"the country, when you refer to people like that, they take it as an"},{"startTime":767.339,"endTime":770.72,"body":"offence because they feel, wait a minute, why are you calling me mister? Am I"},{"startTime":770.86,"endTime":773.899,"body":"old? They don't take it as signs of respect. They take"},{"startTime":774.54,"endTime":778.38,"body":"it as an insult. Do you think I'm old? Like, no, we're the"},{"startTime":778.38,"endTime":782.105,"body":"same age. So, a lot of times, the work that I do"},{"startTime":782.105,"endTime":785.865,"body":"with my clients is very customised, because we fear, who are"},{"startTime":785.865,"endTime":789.144,"body":"you interviewing with? What part of the country? What industry? What"},{"startTime":789.144,"endTime":792.685,"body":"company? What department? And we do research"},{"startTime":793.3,"endTime":796.74,"body":"on all these things. So, that way, when they go into this interview, they know"},{"startTime":796.74,"endTime":800.44,"body":"exactly how to present themselves to that particular person. It's not as hard"},{"startTime":800.66,"endTime":804.02,"body":"as it sounds. Because at the end of the day, we're presenting the same person."},{"startTime":804.02,"endTime":806.9,"body":"You want to be seen how you want to be seen. But different people that"},{"startTime":806.9,"endTime":810.525,"body":"you're talking to may receive that message differently."},{"startTime":810.525,"endTime":814.365,"body":"So, we want to make sure that the message that you're delivering to that"},{"startTime":814.365,"endTime":818.205,"body":"person is the same message you want to deliver. If it's different words, different way"},{"startTime":818.205,"endTime":822.045,"body":"of presenting it, different stories, that's fine. We just have to make"},{"startTime":822.045,"endTime":825.529,"body":"sure that what you're doing is going to land how you want it to land."},{"startTime":828.25,"endTime":831.87,"body":"And what other challenges have you come up specifically for those neurodiverse"},{"startTime":832.01,"endTime":835.529,"body":"clients that you help? A lot of times, again, talking about"},{"startTime":835.529,"endTime":839.347,"body":"themselves. A lot of these people who are neurodiverse,"},{"startTime":839.616,"endTime":843.383,"body":"they're very talented, they have a lot of great projects, but they feel that"},{"startTime":843.383,"endTime":847.149,"body":"if they talk about their projects, it's bragging, and they don't feel comfortable with"},{"startTime":847.149,"endTime":850.96,"body":"bragging. And again, I have to show them that. One thing I"},{"startTime":850.96,"endTime":854.72,"body":"developed that helps people is telling them, 'You have a"},{"startTime":854.72,"endTime":858.56,"body":"decision to make, whether you work here or not. They have a decision to make"},{"startTime":858.56,"endTime":862.32,"body":"on who they hire. You don't make their decision, but your job"},{"startTime":862.32,"endTime":865.885,"body":"here is to give them all the facts that they need, so that they can"},{"startTime":865.885,"endTime":869.565,"body":"make a well-informed decision. So, what are the facts? That you worked"},{"startTime":869.565,"endTime":873.245,"body":"here, you did this project, you got this grade. You can lie by"},{"startTime":873.245,"endTime":876.765,"body":"omission. You cannot tell them that you did a project or that you worked on"},{"startTime":876.765,"endTime":879.665,"body":"a team or you took leadership position, but that's lying. And"},{"startTime":879.77,"endTime":883.61,"body":"not including it, it's lying. You don't want to lie."},{"startTime":883.61,"endTime":887.13,"body":"Tell them the truth, nothing but the truth. They'll decide who they decide to"},{"startTime":887.13,"endTime":890.73,"body":"work there, but you have to give them the truth. That's your job.' Talking"},{"startTime":890.73,"endTime":894.49,"body":"about themselves. Again, things that most people struggle with is"},{"startTime":894.49,"endTime":898.324,"body":"what I see my clients struggling with a lot. More or"},{"startTime":898.324,"endTime":902.084,"body":"less, but I feel sometimes, teaching people how to do"},{"startTime":902.084,"endTime":905.045,"body":"things, anyone can do that, or most people can teach someone how to do something."},{"startTime":905.045,"endTime":908.59,"body":"Most people explain how to do it. What I do differently is"},{"startTime":908.59,"endTime":912.19,"body":"I explain the why, and that's really what makes the difference between"},{"startTime":912.19,"endTime":915.47,"body":"someone who might be neurotypical, or someone who's neurodiverse."},{"startTime":915.47,"endTime":919.17,"body":"They know that they have to do a certain thing, but no"},{"startTime":919.23,"endTime":922.43,"body":"one's ever taken the time to explain to them about why, and that's really what"},{"startTime":922.43,"endTime":925.705,"body":"makes the difference. And so, where does that"},{"startTime":925.845,"endTime":928.345,"body":"difference come from? What is it that helps"},{"startTime":929.525,"endTime":932.885,"body":"neurodiverse people more if they understand the why,"},{"startTime":932.885,"endTime":936.485,"body":"which maybe might not be so"},{"startTime":936.485,"endTime":940.259,"body":"necessary for neurotypical candidates? For"},{"startTime":940.259,"endTime":943.16,"body":"a neurotypical candidate, for example, if I say, 'Smile',"},{"startTime":943.779,"endTime":947.3,"body":"they intuitively know that, oh, yeah, if I"},{"startTime":947.3,"endTime":950.6,"body":"smile, I come across as friendly. Maybe for a neurodiverse"},{"startTime":950.899,"endTime":954.36,"body":"person, that's not as easy. A lot of people who are neurodiverse,"},{"startTime":954.765,"endTime":958.525,"body":"they can't detect or interpret facial"},{"startTime":958.525,"endTime":962.045,"body":"expressions as well as a neurotypical person. So, to them, it's"},{"startTime":962.045,"endTime":965.565,"body":"like, why does it matter if I smile? I mean, I know I'm supposed to"},{"startTime":965.565,"endTime":969.34,"body":"smile, but why? And maybe sometimes I don't even say it, because a"},{"startTime":969.34,"endTime":973.1,"body":"lot of times when they ask these questions, someone who is neurotypical, I"},{"startTime":973.1,"endTime":976.06,"body":"want to say, 'Well, because you have to smile.' And it's like, oh, okay, well,"},{"startTime":976.06,"endTime":979.5,"body":"I just won't ask anymore, because every time I ask, to everyone else it seems"},{"startTime":979.5,"endTime":983.165,"body":"like it's normal or common or natural, but to me it's not. And"},{"startTime":983.165,"endTime":986.385,"body":"when I ask something, it makes me sound dumb. They'll"},{"startTime":986.845,"endTime":990.065,"body":"respond like that, like, 'Well, no, no, no, just smile. You're supposed to smile.' And"},{"startTime":990.065,"endTime":993.005,"body":"it's like, well, maybe I just won't ask anymore. But when I work with them,"},{"startTime":993.005,"endTime":996.66,"body":"I explain why a smile matters. Smile"},{"startTime":996.66,"endTime":1000.5,"body":"shows friendliness. And also, it's not so much the smile, it's the tone of your"},{"startTime":1000.5,"endTime":1004.18,"body":"voice. When you smile, and you might know this,"},{"startTime":1004.18,"endTime":1007.94,"body":"your vocal cords are extended, which means your voice is higher"},{"startTime":1007.94,"endTime":1011.704,"body":"pitched. So, this is perfect when you're in a phone call, you can hear"},{"startTime":1011.704,"endTime":1014.985,"body":"a person smile. You say, how can you hear them? Like, you can. You've probably"},{"startTime":1014.985,"endTime":1018.824,"body":"experienced that before. You're probably experiencing this right now. These guys are smiling"},{"startTime":1018.824,"endTime":1021.944,"body":"to each other. How do I know? I don't know, I just know. It's because"},{"startTime":1021.944,"endTime":1025.645,"body":"their vocal cords are extended. Why does that matter? Right"},{"startTime":1026.119,"endTime":1028.839,"body":"now, maybe it doesn't really matter that much, but back in the day when we"},{"startTime":1028.839,"endTime":1032.52,"body":"were cavemen, and you were walking in the jungle, and you heard a 'Ee, ee,"},{"startTime":1032.52,"endTime":1036.359,"body":"ee, ee', a high-pitched sound, you thought, 'Oh, that's a little baby"},{"startTime":1036.359,"endTime":1040.119,"body":"monkey. That's nice. It's not going to hurt me, a big caveman. It's"},{"startTime":1040.119,"endTime":1042.595,"body":"not going to hurt me. I'm going to keep on walking.' But when you hear"},{"startTime":1042.595,"endTime":1046.194,"body":"a roar, oh, that is probably a lion, and"},{"startTime":1046.194,"endTime":1048.914,"body":"it's going to kill me. It's bigger than me. It's faster than me. It's got"},{"startTime":1048.914,"endTime":1052.595,"body":"big teeth. I better get scared, run away. So, what happens when you smile?"},{"startTime":1052.595,"endTime":1056.34,"body":"I can say my name, 'Hi, my name is Ramon Santillan.' Or I"},{"startTime":1056.34,"endTime":1060.1,"body":"can say, '[smiling] Hi, my name is Ramon Santillan.' There's a slight difference"},{"startTime":1060.1,"endTime":1063.94,"body":"in the sound of the voice, and you can tell"},{"startTime":1063.94,"endTime":1067.299,"body":"on the first one, same words, I didn't say anything different, same words, same person"},{"startTime":1067.299,"endTime":1070.679,"body":"at the same moment, but one's friendlier than the other."},{"startTime":1071.075,"endTime":1074.914,"body":"And why? Because when I do this with my smile, when I exaggerate"},{"startTime":1074.914,"endTime":1078.534,"body":"my smile, my vocal cords got extended, my voice has a higher pitch,"},{"startTime":1078.835,"endTime":1082.434,"body":"it sounds friendlier. In other words, it sounds less dangerous. That's"},{"startTime":1082.434,"endTime":1086.241,"body":"really what we think. It's not that it sounds friendlier. It sounds less dangerous. 'Ee,"},{"startTime":1086.242,"endTime":1090.059,"body":"ee, ee, ee' is less dangerous than a roar, and that's really where"},{"startTime":1090.059,"endTime":1093.74,"body":"you should smile. So, that's when I explain to my"},{"startTime":1093.74,"endTime":1096.845,"body":"clients, well, smiling actually changes the tone of your voice,"},{"startTime":1097.164,"endTime":1100.845,"body":"and it's not so much the smile itself. We see the"},{"startTime":1100.845,"endTime":1104.525,"body":"expression, oh, he's smiling, or she's smiling. They're probably friendly, but then the"},{"startTime":1104.525,"endTime":1108.365,"body":"voice comes with it. It's like, oh, yeah, this person is not a threat"},{"startTime":1108.365,"endTime":1111.905,"body":"to me. Which i.e., friendly. So, I like this person. He's not"},{"startTime":1112.08,"endTime":1115.76,"body":"yelling at me. She's not berating me over my answers"},{"startTime":1115.76,"endTime":1119.6,"body":"or my questions, so maybe I should smile too. And so, when I explain that"},{"startTime":1119.6,"endTime":1122.96,"body":"to my clients, again, neurodiverse or neurotypical, a lot of times we don't know"},{"startTime":1122.96,"endTime":1125.68,"body":"why we do things, we just do them, but when I explain things to people,"},{"startTime":1125.68,"endTime":1129.445,"body":"people say, 'Oh, now I know the secret rules to this"},{"startTime":1129.445,"endTime":1132.885,"body":"game that everyone's been playing around me. I just didn't know what the rules"},{"startTime":1132.885,"endTime":1136.405,"body":"were. Now I'm going to beat everyone at this game because I know the rules,"},{"startTime":1136.405,"endTime":1137.845,"body":"and I know them better than everyone else.'"},{"startTime":1140.44,"endTime":1143.98,"body":"And this is another thing which I've learned about neurodiversity,"},{"startTime":1144.28,"endTime":1147.98,"body":"there's these rules of the game which to someone who's neurotypical,"},{"startTime":1148.76,"endTime":1152.435,"body":"they might be obvious. If someone smiles at you, then you smile back at them."},{"startTime":1152.595,"endTime":1156.035,"body":"But that's not necessarily instinctively the way"},{"startTime":1156.035,"endTime":1159.875,"body":"that someone neurodiverse may"},{"startTime":1159.875,"endTime":1163.555,"body":"interpret the situation. And I guess that that can apply"},{"startTime":1163.555,"endTime":1167.33,"body":"to other things, like body language, and I'm thinking not"},{"startTime":1167.33,"endTime":1171.17,"body":"just in terms of the body language that you exhibit, but"},{"startTime":1171.17,"endTime":1174.61,"body":"also reading the body language of the person sitting opposite"},{"startTime":1174.61,"endTime":1178.21,"body":"you. That's right. A lot of times when I ask my"},{"startTime":1178.21,"endTime":1181.865,"body":"clients what happened during the interview, 'Oh, they were really nice,"},{"startTime":1181.865,"endTime":1185.325,"body":"and they said they'll call me back. 'And it's like, okay, but how"},{"startTime":1185.705,"endTime":1189.465,"body":"were they sitting down? How were they talking to you?"},{"startTime":1189.465,"endTime":1192.825,"body":"So, I know the facts. Facts are, they"},{"startTime":1192.825,"endTime":1196.57,"body":"interviewed me, they asked me some questions, they said they'll get back to"},{"startTime":1196.57,"endTime":1199.69,"body":"me. Those are the facts. We can agree on that. But how did they say"},{"startTime":1199.69,"endTime":1203.144,"body":"that to you? How did they ask you the questions? Did they lean forward and"},{"startTime":1203.145,"endTime":1206.67,"body":"seem more interesting when you said a specific answer? Or were they're looking at"},{"startTime":1207.054,"endTime":1210.575,"body":"their phone the whole time? So, a lot of times, these little titbits of information"},{"startTime":1210.575,"endTime":1214.035,"body":"are very useful to determine how to manage your"},{"startTime":1214.495,"endTime":1218.174,"body":"interview. They might obviously try"},{"startTime":1218.495,"endTime":1222.25,"body":"to do a debrief, but during the interview, you might have to switch gears. And"},{"startTime":1222.25,"endTime":1226.09,"body":"you can do that once you know if"},{"startTime":1226.09,"endTime":1229.13,"body":"the person is paying attention to you or not. Their body language says a lot."},{"startTime":1229.13,"endTime":1232.97,"body":"The words that they say matter, too. But again, I can"},{"startTime":1232.97,"endTime":1236.03,"body":"say, '[smiling] Hi', or I can say, '[more aggressively] Hi.' Same word, but how"},{"startTime":1236.554,"endTime":1240.315,"body":"is my body language? Was I pointing my finger in your face, in your chest?"},{"startTime":1240.315,"endTime":1244.075,"body":"Or was I leaning back with my hands on the back of my head?"},{"startTime":1244.075,"endTime":1246.955,"body":"So, how do I say those words? So, I always show my clients,"},{"startTime":1246.955,"endTime":1250.66,"body":"these are the things you should be looking at when someone's talking to"},{"startTime":1250.66,"endTime":1254.42,"body":"you. And if you feel, based on what you're seeing, that maybe"},{"startTime":1254.42,"endTime":1258.04,"body":"that story didn't land as well, maybe add some more"},{"startTime":1258.1,"endTime":1261.845,"body":"information, or maybe switch gears and put a different story. Again, no one's"},{"startTime":1262.085,"endTime":1265.684,"body":"going to ever get every single job offer they interview for."},{"startTime":1265.684,"endTime":1268.725,"body":"But what we want to do is, when you go to an interview, you feel"},{"startTime":1268.725,"endTime":1272.345,"body":"more confident when you're going in than before. And you might"},{"startTime":1272.485,"endTime":1276.32,"body":"know, okay, well, maybe that's not the right company for me, or maybe it"},{"startTime":1276.32,"endTime":1279.12,"body":"is the right company for me. But what I do know for sure is that"},{"startTime":1279.12,"endTime":1282.24,"body":"I went in, and I did the best job possible because I was prepared. At"},{"startTime":1282.24,"endTime":1285.12,"body":"the end of the day, that's what we need to do, prepare for these interviews."},{"startTime":1288.0,"endTime":1291.539,"body":"When it comes to specific questions, are there"},{"startTime":1291.934,"endTime":1295.695,"body":"typical interview questions which most people can expect to"},{"startTime":1295.695,"endTime":1298.115,"body":"be thrown at them, but which"},{"startTime":1299.134,"endTime":1302.674,"body":"neurodiverse people might have a bit more difficulty"},{"startTime":1303.054,"endTime":1305.634,"body":"with than someone who's neurotypical?"},{"startTime":1306.87,"endTime":1310.309,"body":"In my experience, it's not really so much, everyone gets the same"},{"startTime":1310.309,"endTime":1313.53,"body":"questions. A lot of times, neurodiverse people"},{"startTime":1313.909,"endTime":1317.27,"body":"stick to the facts. So, if the question"},{"startTime":1317.27,"endTime":1321.11,"body":"is, 'Have you worked in a team environment before?', when someone asks you"},{"startTime":1321.11,"endTime":1324.495,"body":"during an interview, what they really want are the details."},{"startTime":1324.795,"endTime":1328.635,"body":"So, yeah, I worked with a team, and my last job, it was a team"},{"startTime":1328.635,"endTime":1331.835,"body":"of five, and we worked on this project, it was a tight deadline, blah blah"},{"startTime":1331.835,"endTime":1335.674,"body":"blah. If you ask a neurodiverse person the question, 'Have you worked"},{"startTime":1335.674,"endTime":1339.33,"body":"with a team before?', a lot of times, they'll say yes, and that is the"},{"startTime":1339.33,"endTime":1343.09,"body":"answer. And then, the interviewer will have to dig a little bit"},{"startTime":1343.09,"endTime":1346.53,"body":"further. Well, can you tell me more about the time you worked on a team?"},{"startTime":1346.53,"endTime":1350.29,"body":"And sometimes even that that question would be like, yes, I can tell. And"},{"startTime":1350.29,"endTime":1352.61,"body":"can you please tell me? And then, oh, okay. Well, let me tell you about"},{"startTime":1352.61,"endTime":1356.085,"body":"the time. Okay. So a lot of times, again, when I when I work with"},{"startTime":1356.085,"endTime":1359.845,"body":"my clients, it's not just explaining, oh, here's an"},{"startTime":1359.845,"endTime":1362.885,"body":"answer. Actually, I don't even give them the answers. I help them develop their own"},{"startTime":1362.885,"endTime":1366.485,"body":"answers for these questions, but I tell them why they're being asked that"},{"startTime":1366.485,"endTime":1370.14,"body":"question. So, an easy one. For example, why do people"},{"startTime":1370.14,"endTime":1373.9,"body":"start the interview by, 'Tell me about yourself'? And people say, 'Well,"},{"startTime":1373.9,"endTime":1377.5,"body":"I don't know. It's a very open-ended question. Actually, it's not open-ended"},{"startTime":1377.5,"endTime":1381.26,"body":"at all. The company doesn't care about you. And I don't mean you're not valuable."},{"startTime":1381.26,"endTime":1384.914,"body":"I don't mean you're not important. I'm also not saying that corporations are evil."},{"startTime":1384.914,"endTime":1387.975,"body":"I'm saying that they care about themselves. So,"},{"startTime":1388.674,"endTime":1392.034,"body":"your answer should present yourself as a solution to their problem."},{"startTime":1392.034,"endTime":1395.875,"body":"So, talking about how you like video games and all this stuff when"},{"startTime":1395.875,"endTime":1399.559,"body":"it's not a job for video games, doesn't really matter to them. It's"},{"startTime":1399.94,"endTime":1403.559,"body":"useless information. Again, I'm not saying they're evil, and I'm not saying you're not important."},{"startTime":1403.779,"endTime":1407.139,"body":"I'm just saying they don't care about that information. Let's focus on their problem. So,"},{"startTime":1407.139,"endTime":1410.58,"body":"if they say, 'Tell me about yourself', you tell them about your skills, your school,"},{"startTime":1410.58,"endTime":1414.365,"body":"your graduation dates, your skill sets, some classes you've taken, some projects you've done."},{"startTime":1414.365,"endTime":1418.205,"body":"That's really what you should focus on. But anyways, back to the original question, why"},{"startTime":1418.205,"endTime":1421.565,"body":"do they ask you that? They ask you that question because they want to ease"},{"startTime":1421.565,"endTime":1424.684,"body":"into the conversation. They're not going to start the interview by saying, 'What's"},{"startTime":1424.684,"endTime":1428.179,"body":"the biggest challenge you've ever had?' That's a harder question."},{"startTime":1428.74,"endTime":1432.26,"body":"That's a more deeper level question. So, just like when you start dinner with"},{"startTime":1432.26,"endTime":1436.1,"body":"someone, if you go on a date with someone, the first question is not"},{"startTime":1436.1,"endTime":1439.779,"body":"going to be, 'So, is your mom going to live with us, or is she"},{"startTime":1439.779,"endTime":1442.995,"body":"going to live with your sister?' No, you start the conversation like, 'So, tell me"},{"startTime":1442.995,"endTime":1446.675,"body":"about yourself.' Once you get deeper into relationship, deeper into the conversation, you can start"},{"startTime":1446.675,"endTime":1450.515,"body":"asking deeper questions. So, why do people ask you, 'Tell me about yourself'?"},{"startTime":1450.515,"endTime":1453.955,"body":"They want to ease into the conversation. It is a great opportunity to talk about"},{"startTime":1453.955,"endTime":1457.42,"body":"how you, right from the beginning, would be a great"},{"startTime":1457.42,"endTime":1461.1,"body":"addition to the company. On the things that they care about. How do you"},{"startTime":1461.1,"endTime":1463.9,"body":"know what they care about? Look at the job description that tells you the problem"},{"startTime":1463.9,"endTime":1467.26,"body":"that they have. And a great way to end the answer to the"},{"startTime":1467.26,"endTime":1470.915,"body":"question, so tell me about yourself, name,"},{"startTime":1470.915,"endTime":1474.755,"body":"major, school, projects you've worked"},{"startTime":1474.755,"endTime":1478.595,"body":"on, previous work experience, even if it's not related, again, things that matter to them,"},{"startTime":1478.595,"endTime":1482.275,"body":"you can finish that question by asking a question, saying, 'What about my"},{"startTime":1482.275,"endTime":1486.12,"body":"resume attracted you the most?' Because that'll show you"},{"startTime":1486.36,"endTime":1490.2,"body":"what they're really focused on. They'll say, 'Oh, I really like"},{"startTime":1490.2,"endTime":1494.04,"body":"your coding experience or that you know these specific languages.' Once"},{"startTime":1494.04,"endTime":1497.0,"body":"you hear that, you know, oh, that's the problem they have. Let me go heavy"},{"startTime":1497.0,"endTime":1499.625,"body":"on those things. Now, you know your stories are going to go heavy on the"},{"startTime":1499.625,"endTime":1503.385,"body":"time you used HTML, that you use Java, C++, whatever it is that they're"},{"startTime":1503.385,"endTime":1506.825,"body":"looking for. That's a tip which I think a lot of"},{"startTime":1506.825,"endTime":1510.285,"body":"people, not just neurodiverse, would do well to remember, that interviews"},{"startTime":1510.745,"endTime":1514.445,"body":"really should be a conversation. And certainly, my most"},{"startTime":1514.98,"endTime":1518.5,"body":"effective ones have been the ones where I haven't"},{"startTime":1518.5,"endTime":1522.34,"body":"just answered a question and waited for the next one, where I"},{"startTime":1522.34,"endTime":1526.12,"body":"have answered a question, and then I've asked a follow-up question myself, and it's become"},{"startTime":1526.34,"endTime":1530.155,"body":"more of a conversation. So, yeah, that's a"},{"startTime":1530.155,"endTime":1533.515,"body":"valuable tip for everyone, I think. Yeah. Exactly right. I"},{"startTime":1533.515,"endTime":1537.295,"body":"think, let other people have interviews. You should be having conversations."},{"startTime":1537.595,"endTime":1541.435,"body":"Because people don't hire the most technical person. They don't hire"},{"startTime":1541.435,"endTime":1544.86,"body":"the most qualified person. They hire the person they like the best."},{"startTime":1545.48,"endTime":1547.34,"body":"Anxiety and overstimulation"},{"startTime":1549.08,"endTime":1552.76,"body":"can be a challenge for some"},{"startTime":1552.76,"endTime":1556.525,"body":"neurotypes. What techniques have you found that"},{"startTime":1556.525,"endTime":1559.965,"body":"people respond well to, to manage that kind of thing in an"},{"startTime":1559.965,"endTime":1563.725,"body":"interview situation, which can already be quite high stress? I'm"},{"startTime":1563.725,"endTime":1567.565,"body":"going to go back to, my fallback is preparation, but the specific kind"},{"startTime":1567.565,"endTime":1571.4,"body":"of preparation. They say practice makes perfect, and that's"},{"startTime":1571.4,"endTime":1575.24,"body":"not true. Perfect practice makes perfect. So, when you go"},{"startTime":1575.24,"endTime":1579.08,"body":"into an interview, like you said, overstimulation, there might be new people, new"},{"startTime":1579.08,"endTime":1582.92,"body":"faces, questions you're not sure about. So, what do we do? We do research"},{"startTime":1582.92,"endTime":1586.515,"body":"on the people you're meeting. So, what did that person do? Where"},{"startTime":1586.575,"endTime":1589.535,"body":"did they work at before? How long have they worked at this job? What's their"},{"startTime":1589.535,"endTime":1593.054,"body":"background? Where is their school or their major? I've realised that"},{"startTime":1593.054,"endTime":1596.755,"body":"if you take those questions out of the equation, if"},{"startTime":1596.815,"endTime":1600.61,"body":"you have answers for those questions, then you don't have to worry about all these"},{"startTime":1600.61,"endTime":1603.409,"body":"questions that run through your head, because you have an answer to them. And when"},{"startTime":1603.409,"endTime":1607.01,"body":"you go to an interview, you actually have questions to ask. Like, hey, I see"},{"startTime":1607.01,"endTime":1610.77,"body":"that you went to my same school. Did you also take professor so and"},{"startTime":1610.77,"endTime":1614.495,"body":"so? Or I see, before this, you were working in"},{"startTime":1614.495,"endTime":1618.335,"body":"a different type of industry, how did you make that transition from there to here?"},{"startTime":1618.335,"endTime":1622.015,"body":"Once you know what you want to ask, there's a lot less"},{"startTime":1622.015,"endTime":1625.17,"body":"things to worry about, because you know what plan you want to go in."},{"startTime":1625.89,"endTime":1628.93,"body":"And again, that's for everyone, but specifically, or"},{"startTime":1629.17,"endTime":1633.01,"body":"especially for neurodiverse people. If we take all those questions"},{"startTime":1633.01,"endTime":1636.29,"body":"out of the air, if we know how we want to present ourselves, instead of"},{"startTime":1636.29,"endTime":1639.345,"body":"just showing up and, well, let's see what they ask me. If you know your"},{"startTime":1639.345,"endTime":1643.105,"body":"story, it doesn't matter what question they ask you. You know how to answer it,"},{"startTime":1643.105,"endTime":1646.705,"body":"because you're focused on your story, how you can help them based"},{"startTime":1646.705,"endTime":1650.325,"body":"on your experiences. Doing research on the company, on"},{"startTime":1651.105,"endTime":1654.028,"body":"the job, and on the people you're meeting. At the end of the day, it"},{"startTime":1654.028,"endTime":1657.82,"body":"solves that anxiety. Because we, in a"},{"startTime":1657.82,"endTime":1661.58,"body":"way, already know these people, because we've looked at their background."},{"startTime":1661.58,"endTime":1665.42,"body":"I had one client years ago. We"},{"startTime":1665.42,"endTime":1669.265,"body":"were doing some research on the person he was interviewing"},{"startTime":1669.265,"endTime":1672.485,"body":"with. And we found that company newsletter"},{"startTime":1673.105,"endTime":1676.805,"body":"on Google. And every month, that company highlighted"},{"startTime":1677.105,"endTime":1680.87,"body":"an employee. A short article about what they did"},{"startTime":1680.87,"endTime":1684.71,"body":"outside of work. And this particular person, he liked"},{"startTime":1684.71,"endTime":1688.47,"body":"to do beekeeping on the weekends. So, we looked at the"},{"startTime":1688.47,"endTime":1691.289,"body":"article, and I say, 'This is fair game because"},{"startTime":1691.35,"endTime":1694.794,"body":"we found it on Google, it's on the"},{"startTime":1694.794,"endTime":1698.554,"body":"company newsletter, so obviously, it was public information, you"},{"startTime":1698.554,"endTime":1702.394,"body":"might want to ask about this at some point.' So, John goes to"},{"startTime":1702.394,"endTime":1706.154,"body":"the interview. The person says, 'Tell me about yourself.' John says, 'My name's John,"},{"startTime":1706.154,"endTime":1709.99,"body":"my major, my school, these are the projects, these are the things I do.' And"},{"startTime":1709.99,"endTime":1713.13,"body":"the question to start the conversation was, 'How about"},{"startTime":1713.91,"endTime":1717.75,"body":"you? I see that you do this particular job, but on the"},{"startTime":1717.75,"endTime":1721.429,"body":"weekends, you like to do beekeeping.' And all these things come in."},{"startTime":1721.429,"endTime":1724.625,"body":"So, we know what question we wanted to ask, we knew what John wanted to"},{"startTime":1724.625,"endTime":1728.465,"body":"present himself as. And we studied body language, how to read and all that"},{"startTime":1728.465,"endTime":1732.225,"body":"stuff. And John told me after the interview that the guy leaned forward, tapped"},{"startTime":1732.225,"endTime":1735.925,"body":"on his desk, and he said, 'You know about beekeeping? You saw"},{"startTime":1736.065,"endTime":1739.28,"body":"the article about beekeeping?' And John's like, 'Yeah. I saw the article that you're beekeeping.'"},{"startTime":1739.28,"endTime":1743.04,"body":"Then, the guy went, 'Let me tell you about beekeeping.' So, for the next 25"},{"startTime":1743.04,"endTime":1746.74,"body":"minutes, it was nothing but beekeeping. Luckily, John had"},{"startTime":1746.8,"endTime":1749.92,"body":"done some research on beekeeping, so he was asking questions like, is it true that"},{"startTime":1749.92,"endTime":1753.655,"body":"the flower changes the type of flavour that the honey makes? Just"},{"startTime":1753.655,"endTime":1757.255,"body":"questions that came up to his head as the guy was talking about"},{"startTime":1757.255,"endTime":1759.275,"body":"beekeeping 25 minutes. When the"},{"startTime":1759.495,"endTime":1762.855,"body":"time was up for the 30-minute interview, John"},{"startTime":1762.855,"endTime":1766.54,"body":"said, 'Well, you know, we're almost out"},{"startTime":1766.54,"endTime":1769.9,"body":"of time. Do you want to ask me anything about my background?' Because he hasn't"},{"startTime":1769.9,"endTime":1773.42,"body":"asked anything besides 'Tell me about yourself.' The guy had spent the whole 25 minutes"},{"startTime":1773.42,"endTime":1777.26,"body":"talking about beekeeping. And the guy said, 'John, do you think you can"},{"startTime":1777.26,"endTime":1781.065,"body":"do this job?' And John's like, 'Yeah.' That's good enough for me. And John"},{"startTime":1781.065,"endTime":1784.105,"body":"got the job. And again, they don't hire the most technical person. We"},{"startTime":1784.105,"endTime":1787.705,"body":"are more or less the same. Right?"},{"startTime":1787.705,"endTime":1791.545,"body":"Some people are maybe smarter or maybe have higher"},{"startTime":1791.545,"endTime":1794.73,"body":"grades, maybe more experience than other people. But at the end of the day, you're"},{"startTime":1794.73,"endTime":1798.169,"body":"going to spend a lot of time at work, and the people who are already"},{"startTime":1798.169,"endTime":1801.61,"body":"there want to make sure that you're cool. Not that you're the funniest or anything."},{"startTime":1801.61,"endTime":1804.756,"body":"No. That they're going to like you. Are you going to be cool to hang"},{"startTime":1804.757,"endTime":1807.21,"body":"around with? Because they're going to spend a lot of time with you, too. So,"},{"startTime":1807.21,"endTime":1810.205,"body":"they want to make sure. Do I like this girl? Do I like this guy?"},{"startTime":1810.205,"endTime":1813.565,"body":"Are they cool to be around with? Again, it's not"},{"startTime":1815.245,"endTime":1818.924,"body":"like you have to be the, here in the US, we have the archetype of"},{"startTime":1818.924,"endTime":1822.77,"body":"the football player, quarterback. But no,"},{"startTime":1822.77,"endTime":1825.81,"body":"you don't have to be that guy. You can be yourself. That's why we want"},{"startTime":1825.81,"endTime":1828.45,"body":"to make sure you find the right job for you. That can be at the"},{"startTime":1828.45,"endTime":1832.21,"body":"big companies. It can be the Microsoft, it can be the Facebooks. It can be"},{"startTime":1832.21,"endTime":1835.89,"body":"anywhere else too, but you have to make sure that you go to the place"},{"startTime":1835.89,"endTime":1838.715,"body":"you want to be. And that's why it's important to tell your story."},{"startTime":1840.315,"endTime":1843.775,"body":"A hot topic is around disclosure,"},{"startTime":1844.315,"endTime":1847.535,"body":"disclosing neurodiversity. And that can be challenging"},{"startTime":1847.835,"endTime":1851.135,"body":"enough when you're in a job. So,"},{"startTime":1851.61,"endTime":1855.37,"body":"in the workplace, and you're aware that you might"},{"startTime":1855.37,"endTime":1859.049,"body":"be neurodiverse, maybe you've got a diagnosis, but there's the question"},{"startTime":1859.049,"endTime":1862.49,"body":"about whether it's something to disclose to the boss,"},{"startTime":1862.49,"endTime":1866.125,"body":"disclose to colleagues, that kind of thing. What about in an"},{"startTime":1866.125,"endTime":1869.745,"body":"interview situation? I mean, is this ever something which"},{"startTime":1870.284,"endTime":1873.505,"body":"could be declared as part of the process?"},{"startTime":1874.524,"endTime":1878.32,"body":"When I work with my clients, we eventually get to that"},{"startTime":1878.32,"endTime":1882.08,"body":"question, because they're filling out a job application, and here in the United"},{"startTime":1882.08,"endTime":1884.96,"body":"States, we have a little box that you have to check, or you can check"},{"startTime":1884.96,"endTime":1888.72,"body":"whether you want to disclose or not, or prefer not to say,"},{"startTime":1888.72,"endTime":1892.48,"body":"which in a way saying I do have a disability of sorts."},{"startTime":1892.48,"endTime":1896.215,"body":"And I always tell them, this is up to you to decide. Ideally, you"},{"startTime":1896.595,"endTime":1900.375,"body":"should not be discriminated because of that. We have laws against that. But"},{"startTime":1900.755,"endTime":1903.715,"body":"what happens because of the law and what happens in the real world might be"},{"startTime":1903.715,"endTime":1907.28,"body":"different. And I always tell people, it's up to you to disclose. If you feel"},{"startTime":1907.28,"endTime":1910.82,"body":"you need some kind of accommodation, definitely disclose. But"},{"startTime":1911.2,"endTime":1914.96,"body":"the way you disclose matters. So, I always tell them, let's do this when"},{"startTime":1914.96,"endTime":1918.755,"body":"we're talking to someone. Because when you're talking to someone one on one, it's"},{"startTime":1918.755,"endTime":1922.515,"body":"easier to explain, and they can see, they're like, 'Oh, yeah,"},{"startTime":1922.515,"endTime":1926.035,"body":"this person, they might be neurodiverse, but that's completely different than what I thought"},{"startTime":1926.035,"endTime":1929.795,"body":"neurodiversity was. Neurodiversity, I thought was a big, big disability that they"},{"startTime":1929.795,"endTime":1933.27,"body":"couldn't even get around or anything like that. And it can be,"},{"startTime":1933.27,"endTime":1936.89,"body":"but I can see that this person is not that. So, maybe"},{"startTime":1937.27,"endTime":1940.39,"body":"I just had to explain things a little bit different to this person than other"},{"startTime":1940.39,"endTime":1944.15,"body":"people.( And the employer, the hiring manager, that person might say,"},{"startTime":1944.15,"endTime":1947.765,"body":"'Yeah, we can do that. You know what? I really like this person."},{"startTime":1947.765,"endTime":1951.285,"body":"It's not what I thought neurodiversity was.' And"},{"startTime":1951.684,"endTime":1954.885,"body":"so, again, I tell people, let's talk to that person. And we start off by"},{"startTime":1954.885,"endTime":1958.585,"body":"asking, 'Do you know what, you know, whatever, ADHD is,"},{"startTime":1959.845,"endTime":1963.419,"body":"being on the spectrum?' A lot of times people have some experience. They might know"},{"startTime":1963.419,"endTime":1966.94,"body":"someone, in their family or something. And then I say, okay, well, now let's"},{"startTime":1966.94,"endTime":1970.46,"body":"explain how it in a way benefits you to have that. What makes you"},{"startTime":1970.46,"endTime":1974.085,"body":"different about this? And everyone has a different explanation. Some people"},{"startTime":1974.085,"endTime":1977.845,"body":"can focus really well. Some people cannot focus very well, but it"},{"startTime":1977.845,"endTime":1981.605,"body":"comes with some other strengths. And they explain, well, this is what"},{"startTime":1981.605,"endTime":1985.304,"body":"I do to overcome this or work with this or deal with this."},{"startTime":1985.7,"endTime":1989.14,"body":"But also, on the flip side, these are some very, very good strengths that I"},{"startTime":1989.14,"endTime":1992.84,"body":"have, that I think make me an ideal candidate for this role."},{"startTime":1992.98,"endTime":1996.52,"body":"And again, I feel that once you talk to a person face to face"},{"startTime":1996.98,"endTime":2000.419,"body":"about this, they can be more understanding, they can be more open to"},{"startTime":2000.419,"endTime":2004.125,"body":"listening. And they can see, oh, yeah, this isn't that much different than"},{"startTime":2004.125,"endTime":2007.965,"body":"someone else who maybe we need to put a ramp"},{"startTime":2007.965,"endTime":2011.805,"body":"for them, or something that's not even that hard"},{"startTime":2011.805,"endTime":2015.43,"body":"to do. And in a way, there's a lot of programmes, I'll get in a"},{"startTime":2015.43,"endTime":2019.19,"body":"little soapbox for a second, there's a lot of programmes out there that help"},{"startTime":2019.19,"endTime":2022.97,"body":"people get jobs at companies. So, there's hiring initiatives,"},{"startTime":2023.19,"endTime":2026.95,"body":"and they're great, and they're wonderful. In a lot of these programmes, I"},{"startTime":2026.95,"endTime":2030.794,"body":"feel they do a lot of accommodations, and some people"},{"startTime":2030.794,"endTime":2034.315,"body":"need accommodations, I 100% agree with that, but some people don't need as many"},{"startTime":2034.315,"endTime":2037.855,"body":"accommodations. And they've told me before that they've"},{"startTime":2038.394,"endTime":2042.15,"body":"gotten a job, but they said, 'I didn't earn that. It was"},{"startTime":2042.15,"endTime":2045.99,"body":"a pity hire.' I heard that phrase several times for several of my clients who"},{"startTime":2045.99,"endTime":2049.429,"body":"came to me after they've done that with someone. They say, we need someone who's"},{"startTime":2049.429,"endTime":2052.969,"body":"on the spectrum. They saw me and said, 'Pick that guy. Pick that girl.' And"},{"startTime":2053.27,"endTime":2056.63,"body":"they get that job. But then, they never really learned how to get a job,"},{"startTime":2056.63,"endTime":2060.335,"body":"and I guess it was through a hiring initiative. And I said, well,"},{"startTime":2060.335,"endTime":2063.614,"body":"how many hiring initiatives are there? There's one here in the United States, I think"},{"startTime":2063.614,"endTime":2066.974,"body":"it's June, which is autism awareness month. Everyone"},{"startTime":2066.974,"endTime":2070.415,"body":"talks about how they do all these things for neurodiversity, but then the rest of"},{"startTime":2070.415,"endTime":2072.88,"body":"the year, nothing happens. And they say, well, what about the rest of the year?"},{"startTime":2072.88,"endTime":2075.839,"body":"I need a job the whole year, not just for a month. They tell me"},{"startTime":2075.839,"endTime":2079.599,"body":"that they don't like those because it was a pity hire."},{"startTime":2079.599,"endTime":2083.44,"body":"Again, that phrase stuck with me that they say, 'I was a"},{"startTime":2083.44,"endTime":2086.319,"body":"pity hire. They hired me because they had pity on me, not because I earned"},{"startTime":2086.319,"endTime":2089.904,"body":"the job.' One thing I'm very proud of is that none of my clients have"},{"startTime":2089.904,"endTime":2093.664,"body":"gotten a job through a hire initiative. They compete with everyone else in those jobs,"},{"startTime":2093.664,"endTime":2097.025,"body":"and they get those jobs. Again, these are top, top jobs. A lot of times"},{"startTime":2097.025,"endTime":2100.785,"body":"parents call me telling me that their kids earn more"},{"startTime":2100.785,"endTime":2104.47,"body":"money than they do. So, what I do is, I make sure I"},{"startTime":2104.47,"endTime":2107.83,"body":"empower my clients. I don't want my clients to need me again. I"},{"startTime":2107.83,"endTime":2111.67,"body":"want them to go get a job through just a regular"},{"startTime":2111.67,"endTime":2115.51,"body":"job, and the next job they look for, they can get it on"},{"startTime":2115.51,"endTime":2118.625,"body":"their own. They don't need me. A lot of times, I feel some of these"},{"startTime":2118.625,"endTime":2122.385,"body":"programmes, I'm sure they help some people, but a lot of people I've talked"},{"startTime":2122.385,"endTime":2124.865,"body":"to have come to me and said, 'They didn't help me at all. It actually"},{"startTime":2124.865,"endTime":2128.005,"body":"made me feel worse.' We focused"},{"startTime":2128.224,"endTime":2131.664,"body":"predominantly on the experience from the"},{"startTime":2131.664,"endTime":2135.49,"body":"candidate side. I am curious to know whether"},{"startTime":2135.869,"endTime":2139.549,"body":"you have got any advice for the person on the other"},{"startTime":2139.549,"endTime":2142.77,"body":"side of the table, the interviewer. So, if they"},{"startTime":2143.47,"endTime":2147.309,"body":"become aware or maybe suspect that the person"},{"startTime":2147.309,"endTime":2150.525,"body":"they're talking to has some kind of neurodiversity,"},{"startTime":2151.785,"endTime":2155.405,"body":"what are some of the ways that they can"},{"startTime":2156.025,"endTime":2159.244,"body":"support the candidate whilst still maintaining"},{"startTime":2159.705,"endTime":2163.145,"body":"the fairness and integrity of the interview"},{"startTime":2163.145,"endTime":2166.92,"body":"process? I think, just explain questions. And"},{"startTime":2166.92,"endTime":2169.98,"body":"again, it's hard for anyone to"},{"startTime":2170.44,"endTime":2173.88,"body":"tell if someone's neurodiverse or not. So, you can't say, 'Oh, this"},{"startTime":2173.88,"endTime":2177.635,"body":"person, they're neurodiverse. I can tell already off the bat.' Sometimes people are just"},{"startTime":2177.635,"endTime":2180.994,"body":"shy. So, I would say for interviewers, the best thing you can do"},{"startTime":2180.994,"endTime":2184.454,"body":"is ask the question you want to ask."},{"startTime":2184.755,"endTime":2188.595,"body":"Don't just say, 'Have you worked in a team before?' Is"},{"startTime":2188.595,"endTime":2190.674,"body":"that the question you want to ask? Or is the question you want to ask,"},{"startTime":2190.674,"endTime":2193.48,"body":"'Tell me a time you worked in a team, and you faced a difficult situation'?"},{"startTime":2193.48,"endTime":2196.92,"body":"That's a different question. Because the first"},{"startTime":2196.92,"endTime":2200.76,"body":"one, we can answer with a yes or no answer. The second one"},{"startTime":2200.76,"endTime":2204.38,"body":"requires a story. So, ask the question you want to ask."},{"startTime":2204.605,"endTime":2207.645,"body":"It's the same thing I tell my clients. I'd say, don't ask the"},{"startTime":2207.645,"endTime":2211.405,"body":"question, 'Tell me about your diversity.'"},{"startTime":2211.405,"endTime":2215.085,"body":"Every company, no matter who they are, is going to say they're"},{"startTime":2215.085,"endTime":2218.92,"body":"diverse, even if they're not. But is that really a question you want to"},{"startTime":2218.92,"endTime":2220.84,"body":"ask? Some people say, 'Yeah. I want to know about that.' Okay. Good. Let's ask"},{"startTime":2220.84,"endTime":2224.3,"body":"that question, but in a different way, so that way, you get a real"},{"startTime":2224.599,"endTime":2228.184,"body":"answer, not the HR answer. If it's not the question you want to ask, let's"},{"startTime":2228.184,"endTime":2231.845,"body":"ask one that you really care about. You know, if I get this job,"},{"startTime":2231.925,"endTime":2235.525,"body":"what's the career path of this company for someone with this"},{"startTime":2235.525,"endTime":2239.365,"body":"kind of job? That's a specific question that maybe someone wants to know. So,"},{"startTime":2239.365,"endTime":2243.125,"body":"ask that question. So, in both ways, ask the question you want to"},{"startTime":2243.125,"endTime":2246.94,"body":"ask, and don't ask yes or no questions. I think sometimes for neurotypical people,"},{"startTime":2246.94,"endTime":2250.7,"body":"well, it's obvious that I'm trying to figure out the time they struggled"},{"startTime":2250.7,"endTime":2254.46,"body":"with someone in the team. No, it's not. You asked a yes or"},{"startTime":2254.46,"endTime":2257.909,"body":"no question. You get a yes or no answer. And that goes for neurotypical and"},{"startTime":2257.91,"endTime":2261.635,"body":"neurodiverse people. Like I mentioned"},{"startTime":2261.635,"endTime":2265.234,"body":"before, a lot of companies are doing these hiring initiatives and that kind of stuff,"},{"startTime":2265.234,"endTime":2268.775,"body":"and that takes time. My goal, I think it's easier if we just"},{"startTime":2269.234,"endTime":2272.595,"body":"convince companies, and not convince them by making them"},{"startTime":2272.595,"endTime":2276.19,"body":"do it, but convince them by showing them that neurodiverse candidates"},{"startTime":2276.19,"endTime":2279.97,"body":"are as good, maybe sometimes even better, than neurotypical candidates."},{"startTime":2280.03,"endTime":2283.87,"body":"And how do we do that? By not necessarily giving them the"},{"startTime":2283.87,"endTime":2287.71,"body":"jobs, by showing them how to get these jobs. And these people can do,"},{"startTime":2287.71,"endTime":2291.035,"body":"I frankly feel like they can do sometimes a better job than neurotypical people. And"},{"startTime":2291.035,"endTime":2294.655,"body":"once you have more neurodiverse people in a company,"},{"startTime":2294.795,"endTime":2298.395,"body":"those people will probably know how to ask those questions better,"},{"startTime":2298.395,"endTime":2302.235,"body":"because they know what answer they're going to get if"},{"startTime":2302.235,"endTime":2305.3,"body":"they ask, 'Have you worked in a team before?', as opposed to, 'Tell me a"},{"startTime":2305.3,"endTime":2308.82,"body":"time when you struggled with working on a team.' So, that's my goal. Get as"},{"startTime":2308.82,"endTime":2312.26,"body":"many people who are neurodiverse working companies, so that way everyone"},{"startTime":2312.26,"endTime":2315.8,"body":"else can know that, hey, these people are really good"},{"startTime":2316.095,"endTime":2319.855,"body":"employees. They make us money. They work well. They stay"},{"startTime":2319.855,"endTime":2323.555,"body":"a long time. Maybe we should hire more of them. I'm not forcing"},{"startTime":2324.015,"endTime":2327.375,"body":"anyone to hire. I'm convincing them, I'm persuading them to get"},{"startTime":2327.375,"endTime":2331.06,"body":"hired. One of the things that"},{"startTime":2331.06,"endTime":2334.9,"body":"I've actually found quite heartening as I've learned more and more about"},{"startTime":2334.9,"endTime":2337.96,"body":"neurodiversity is that a great way"},{"startTime":2338.34,"endTime":2342.1,"body":"to present yourself or behave is just to"},{"startTime":2342.1,"endTime":2345.48,"body":"be clear about things. And this can be beneficial"},{"startTime":2345.915,"endTime":2349.195,"body":"whether you're talking to someone with a neurodiversity or not. So,"},{"startTime":2349.195,"endTime":2352.714,"body":"like you said, if you have a question, ask the question that you"},{"startTime":2352.714,"endTime":2356.555,"body":"actually want answered, rather than a question which"},{"startTime":2356.555,"endTime":2360.315,"body":"you kind of assume the other person will understand what the real question"},{"startTime":2360.315,"endTime":2363.359,"body":"is. If you're just clear in your communication"},{"startTime":2364.22,"endTime":2367.74,"body":"and clear about what you're asking of the other person, I don't think it really"},{"startTime":2367.74,"endTime":2371.579,"body":"matters who's across the table from you. Exactly right. As"},{"startTime":2371.579,"endTime":2374.24,"body":"long as you solve their problem, I think it goes with any"},{"startTime":2374.46,"endTime":2378.125,"body":"group, if you can solve the problem"},{"startTime":2378.125,"endTime":2381.645,"body":"that they have, they really don't care who you are, what you look like, or"},{"startTime":2381.645,"endTime":2384.925,"body":"what you do. They say, 'No, we need this person because this person can solve"},{"startTime":2384.925,"endTime":2388.525,"body":"our problem.' And at the end of the day, again, I'm not saying"},{"startTime":2388.525,"endTime":2391.78,"body":"corporations are evil or anything like that, but they have problems to solve,"},{"startTime":2392.26,"endTime":2395.48,"body":"and that's why they're hiring someone. A lot of times people think"},{"startTime":2396.02,"endTime":2399.86,"body":"the problem is hiring. No, the problem is not hiring. The problem"},{"startTime":2399.86,"endTime":2403.54,"body":"is something else. If a company could have figured out how to get a"},{"startTime":2403.54,"endTime":2406.355,"body":"computer to do that job, they would have done it already. But so far, they"},{"startTime":2406.355,"endTime":2410.055,"body":"haven't figured it out, so they need someone. They don't need"},{"startTime":2410.275,"endTime":2414.035,"body":"a body. They need someone to provide the solution. In our day and"},{"startTime":2414.035,"endTime":2417.795,"body":"age, maybe it's a person. So, be that person. Be the solution to"},{"startTime":2417.795,"endTime":2421.37,"body":"their problem. No one cares about you. And again, I'm not saying you're not"},{"startTime":2421.37,"endTime":2425.05,"body":"important. I'm not saying you're not valuable. Companies care about themselves. And I'm not"},{"startTime":2425.05,"endTime":2428.73,"body":"saying companies are evil either. Again, we all have our problems. If we"},{"startTime":2428.73,"endTime":2432.385,"body":"can solve other people's problems, then we solve our problems. If"},{"startTime":2432.385,"endTime":2436.065,"body":"someone wants to dive into the topic that we've been discussing in"},{"startTime":2436.065,"endTime":2439.825,"body":"a bit more detail, what resources do you suggest that"},{"startTime":2439.825,"endTime":2443.505,"body":"they could look into? I mean, there's so many out"},{"startTime":2443.505,"endTime":2447.125,"body":"there. The field changes all the time. Sometimes even terms change."},{"startTime":2447.33,"endTime":2450.77,"body":"What was an acceptable term at some point is not anymore. It"},{"startTime":2450.85,"endTime":2454.53,"body":"hard to pin down. I always start, you"},{"startTime":2454.53,"endTime":2458.13,"body":"can go into the academic route and try learning it that way. There's all kinds"},{"startTime":2458.13,"endTime":2461.65,"body":"of books. You can just type 'neuro' into the Google"},{"startTime":2461.65,"endTime":2464.835,"body":"browser. You'll find all of them. You can go to"},{"startTime":2465.295,"endTime":2468.735,"body":"doctors, which started my path, getting the"},{"startTime":2468.735,"endTime":2472.175,"body":"medical side of it. But at the end of the day, talking to"},{"startTime":2472.175,"endTime":2475.93,"body":"someone who identifies as neurodiverse and just speaking to"},{"startTime":2475.93,"endTime":2479.71,"body":"them or talking to them, listening to them, you're going to learn a"},{"startTime":2480.09,"endTime":2483.85,"body":"lot of things. And one thing you'll learn is, once you talk to someone who's"},{"startTime":2483.85,"endTime":2487.29,"body":"on the spectrum, what does that mean, you've talked to one person on the spectrum."},{"startTime":2487.29,"endTime":2490.605,"body":"It's a spectrum for a reason. Everyone's a little bit different, and"},{"startTime":2490.985,"endTime":2493.885,"body":"that's fine. So, just being understanding, and"},{"startTime":2494.825,"endTime":2498.605,"body":"again, this is for everyone, be clear in what you're asking"},{"startTime":2499.065,"endTime":2502.72,"body":"and what you're saying. And that will just help everyone in"},{"startTime":2502.72,"endTime":2505.744,"body":"general, not just people who are neurodiverse. If you ask the question you want to"},{"startTime":2505.744,"endTime":2508.64,"body":"ask, that's something I would start off. A"},{"startTime":2508.64,"endTime":2512.16,"body":"good research for interviewing that I feel everyone should"},{"startTime":2512.16,"endTime":2515.915,"body":"read, which will start you in this path, is this book"},{"startTime":2515.915,"endTime":2519.455,"body":"called Crazy Good Interviewing. It's by John Molidor. It's"},{"startTime":2519.675,"endTime":2523.515,"body":"been around for a while. I actually got it at a Half Price Books here"},{"startTime":2523.515,"endTime":2527.29,"body":"in Austin, Texas, actually. So, a good 25 years ago, I believe."},{"startTime":2527.29,"endTime":2530.97,"body":"It's a great resource. That's what started my path as an interview"},{"startTime":2530.97,"endTime":2534.73,"body":"coach and really getting to the technical side of interviewing. And even to just say"},{"startTime":2534.73,"endTime":2538.01,"body":"I refer to it when I work with my clients, because it has a lot"},{"startTime":2538.01,"endTime":2541.835,"body":"of viewpoints on how to see the interview from a different perspective. And at"},{"startTime":2541.835,"endTime":2545.434,"body":"the end of the day, people who are neurodiverse are seeing things from a"},{"startTime":2545.434,"endTime":2548.795,"body":"different perspective. It doesn't mean that it's a wrong perspective. It's just a different one"},{"startTime":2548.795,"endTime":2551.74,"body":"that most of us are currently looking at. I'm going to add my own suggestion"},{"startTime":2551.74,"endTime":2555.58,"body":"for a resource, and I'm going to get the name wrong. And I'll"},{"startTime":2555.58,"endTime":2558.8,"body":"put it in the show notes, but it's called something like The A Method"},{"startTime":2559.18,"endTime":2562.54,"body":"For Hiring or The A List Method For Hiring. And it's"},{"startTime":2562.54,"endTime":2566.175,"body":"a book which is aimed at the other"},{"startTime":2566.395,"endTime":2569.995,"body":"side of the table. It's aimed at the companies that want"},{"startTime":2569.995,"endTime":2573.675,"body":"to hire the best candidates, how would you do that, and it suggests various"},{"startTime":2573.675,"endTime":2577.215,"body":"processes for doing it. And why I"},{"startTime":2577.579,"endTime":2581.339,"body":"think that's valuable is that it goes back to what you were saying about understanding"},{"startTime":2581.339,"endTime":2585.04,"body":"what the company is looking for when it's hiring"},{"startTime":2585.099,"endTime":2588.72,"body":"someone. In other words, it's looking to find a solution to its own"},{"startTime":2588.94,"endTime":2592.694,"body":"problem. If you understand what's motivating the"},{"startTime":2593.154,"endTime":2596.994,"body":"person who is looking to make this hire, then"},{"startTime":2596.994,"endTime":2600.595,"body":"you can better answer their questions,"},{"startTime":2600.595,"endTime":2604.035,"body":"better present yourself as the solution to that problem. At"},{"startTime":2604.035,"endTime":2607.49,"body":"the end of the day, what they're looking for is a solution to the problem."},{"startTime":2607.49,"endTime":2611.25,"body":"So, present yourself as a solution. Tell them the things that they need"},{"startTime":2611.25,"endTime":2615.089,"body":"to hear, that are true, obviously, about you, that will solve that"},{"startTime":2615.089,"endTime":2618.77,"body":"problem for them. And that's going to get you the job. Where should people go"},{"startTime":2618.77,"endTime":2622.385,"body":"to find out more about you? You can go to my website,"},{"startTime":2622.525,"endTime":2626.205,"body":"persuasiveinterview.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn under my name,"},{"startTime":2626.205,"endTime":2627.965,"body":"Ramon Santillan. You can go to"},{"startTime":2627.965,"endTime":2632.605,"body":"linkedin.com/in/interviewcoach,"},{"startTime":2632.605,"endTime":2635.885,"body":"and you'll find all my posts. You can send me a connection request there. I'm"},{"startTime":2635.885,"endTime":2639.48,"body":"always happy to accept people there and talk to them. But yeah, my website, persuasiveinterview.com,"},{"startTime":2639.48,"endTime":2643.08,"body":"has a lot of articles, a lot of success stories"},{"startTime":2643.08,"endTime":2646.84,"body":"on there that you can see and just learn more of the"},{"startTime":2646.84,"endTime":2649.96,"body":"things that I do and how I help people get the job that they want."},{"startTime":2651.184,"endTime":2654.385,"body":"Links will be in the show notes. Ramon, thank you so much for coming on"},{"startTime":2654.385,"endTime":2657.204,"body":"the show and sharing your expertise. Thank you, Jeremy."},{"startTime":2658.065,"endTime":2661.285,"body":"Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Ramon Santillan."},{"startTime":2662.145,"endTime":2665.125,"body":"It never occurred to me that one of the traits of neurodiversity"},{"startTime":2666.19,"endTime":2669.95,"body":"could be a need to understand why the rules, why"},{"startTime":2669.95,"endTime":2673.79,"body":"the norms are in place. I've never really thought about why"},{"startTime":2673.79,"endTime":2677.41,"body":"it's important to smile at someone. So, it was interesting"},{"startTime":2677.47,"endTime":2681.075,"body":"hearing Ramon describe how he does go into some"},{"startTime":2681.075,"endTime":2684.595,"body":"detail with his clients to help them understand the reason and the"},{"startTime":2684.595,"endTime":2688.115,"body":"rationale behind this. I also thought that whether you"},{"startTime":2688.115,"endTime":2691.635,"body":"identify as being neurodiverse or not, there was an awful lot in this"},{"startTime":2691.635,"endTime":2695.45,"body":"conversation that could help you prepare for interviews. The"},{"startTime":2695.45,"endTime":2698.81,"body":"preparation that Ramon described might sound a bit over the"},{"startTime":2698.81,"endTime":2702.57,"body":"top, but he said to me after the interview that what he does"},{"startTime":2702.57,"endTime":2705.95,"body":"is takes people who have maybe just graduated"},{"startTime":2706.17,"endTime":2709.475,"body":"from college and turns them into"},{"startTime":2710.015,"endTime":2713.235,"body":"C-suite interviewees. So, in other words, they conduct"},{"startTime":2713.375,"endTime":2716.675,"body":"interviews as though they were senior corporate executives."},{"startTime":2717.295,"endTime":2721.05,"body":"And that gets him and his clients results. One of the key"},{"startTime":2721.05,"endTime":2724.81,"body":"points that bears repeating is that when companies are looking"},{"startTime":2724.81,"endTime":2728.49,"body":"to hire, it's because they are looking to solve a problem. And that's"},{"startTime":2728.49,"endTime":2732.17,"body":"the main thing going on in their minds. Are"},{"startTime":2732.17,"endTime":2735.985,"body":"you the person who can solve the need, solve the problem that they have?"},{"startTime":2736.625,"endTime":2740.465,"body":"Demonstrate that you are that person, and you're well on your way. Show"},{"startTime":2740.465,"endTime":2742.405,"body":"notes for this episode are at changeworklife.com/198,"},{"startTime":2744.225,"endTime":2747.905,"body":"that's changeworklife.com/198. And I'd"},{"startTime":2747.905,"endTime":2751.365,"body":"love to find out from you if this kind of episode is helpful."},{"startTime":2751.77,"endTime":2755.39,"body":"Do you want to hear more episodes like this? Less like this?"},{"startTime":2755.53,"endTime":2759.23,"body":"If less, well, what else would you like to hear about? Go to changeworklife.com/contact,"},{"startTime":2761.13,"endTime":2764.67,"body":"that's changeworklife.com/contact, and let me know."},{"startTime":2765.285,"endTime":2768.345,"body":"In two weeks' time, we're going to be exploring confidence."},{"startTime":2769.125,"endTime":2772.585,"body":"Why is it that so many of us put up with unhappiness?"},{"startTime":2773.365,"endTime":2776.825,"body":"What is it about doubt and lack of self-confidence,"},{"startTime":2777.349,"endTime":2780.95,"body":"fear of the unknown that makes us so resistant even to"},{"startTime":2780.95,"endTime":2784.71,"body":"start exploring change? That's what we're talking about in two"},{"startTime":2784.71,"endTime":2788.39,"body":"weeks' time. So, make sure that you subscribe to the show, if you haven't"},{"startTime":2788.39,"endTime":2791.21,"body":"already, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers."},{"startTime":2800.805,"endTime":2801.305,"body":"Bye."}]}