{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.08,"endTime":3.78,"body":"There's no question that trauma can have a long-lasting impact,"},{"startTime":4.0,"endTime":7.759,"body":"including on the way you show up for work. But what about"},{"startTime":7.759,"endTime":11.599,"body":"if that trauma isn't some big life changing event, but"},{"startTime":11.599,"endTime":15.375,"body":"is a whole succession of smaller events? Maybe it's the"},{"startTime":15.375,"endTime":19.135,"body":"boss who continually ignores you, or the work colleague"},{"startTime":19.135,"endTime":22.895,"body":"that you always seem to end up in arguments with. How do"},{"startTime":22.895,"endTime":26.414,"body":"these cumulative traumas show up, and what can you do about"},{"startTime":26.414,"endTime":29.954,"body":"them? That's what we're going to be discussing in this week's episode."},{"startTime":30.64,"endTime":34.239,"body":"A quick warning, we do touch on some topics which you might"},{"startTime":34.239,"endTime":37.92,"body":"find difficult or upsetting. So, just be aware and do"},{"startTime":37.92,"endTime":41.44,"body":"whatever you need to do. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work"},{"startTime":41.44,"endTime":41.94,"body":"Life."},{"startTime":57.335,"endTime":61.06,"body":"Hello, and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast, the show that's all about"},{"startTime":61.06,"endTime":64.66,"body":"beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. I'm a career coach,"},{"startTime":64.66,"endTime":68.42,"body":"and in each episode, my guests and I bring you tips, strategies and"},{"startTime":68.42,"endTime":71.88,"body":"stories to help you enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life."},{"startTime":72.255,"endTime":75.315,"body":"When you think of trauma, you probably imagine major"},{"startTime":75.455,"endTime":79.215,"body":"life-altering events. But what about those smaller or subtle"},{"startTime":79.215,"endTime":82.735,"body":"events or experiences, like a perceived betrayal or"},{"startTime":82.735,"endTime":86.51,"body":"embarrassment? What lasting effects can these have, particularly"},{"startTime":86.51,"endTime":90.11,"body":"in the context of the workplace and how you show up for work? To explore"},{"startTime":90.11,"endTime":93.549,"body":"this topic, I'm joined this week by Kelly Campbell, a"},{"startTime":93.549,"endTime":97.15,"body":"trauma informed leadership coach to emerging and established"},{"startTime":97.15,"endTime":100.595,"body":"leaders. Kelly is also the author of Heal to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":100.595,"endTime":103.815,"body":"Revolutionizing Leadership Through Trauma Healing."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":104.115,"endTime":107.955,"body":"Kelly, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Jeremy."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":107.955,"endTime":111.735,"body":"This is great. I feel like people often come to the helping professions"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":111.795,"endTime":115.369,"body":"because of something they went through in their own lives, and that was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":115.369,"endTime":119.21,"body":"certainly the case with me and what led me to coaching. What led you"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":119.21,"endTime":122.729,"body":"to become a coach specialising in trauma? As I like to say, a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":122.729,"endTime":126.11,"body":"nonlinear path. Best kind."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":126.57,"endTime":130.315,"body":"I was a CEO for 14 years, I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":130.315,"endTime":133.995,"body":"owned a cause marketing agency, where we did digital marketing and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":133.995,"endTime":137.834,"body":"things like that for non-profits and foundations and social"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":137.834,"endTime":141.515,"body":"impact initiatives. Very rewarding work. But it wasn't until I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":141.515,"endTime":144.9,"body":"started to burn out towards the end of that 13-,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":144.9,"endTime":148.34,"body":"14-year stint, where I first"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":148.34,"endTime":151.88,"body":"started really questioning what got me involved"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":151.94,"endTime":155.7,"body":"in entrepreneurship in the first place. I saw"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":155.7,"endTime":159.435,"body":"other people leading organisations much"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":159.435,"endTime":163.035,"body":"older than I was, and I couldn't understand how I was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":163.035,"endTime":166.815,"body":"burning out so quickly, and they weren't."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":167.355,"endTime":171.114,"body":"I thought maybe I just couldn't hack it. I wasn't really sure"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":171.114,"endTime":174.65,"body":"what was going on. But I knew that there"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":174.65,"endTime":178.09,"body":"must be some reason that I hadn't thought about or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":178.09,"endTime":181.79,"body":"encountered before as it related to the motivations behind"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":182.09,"endTime":185.895,"body":"an entrepreneurial journey. And so, the more that I started"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":185.895,"endTime":189.495,"body":"to dive into these areas, I've realised that I had"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":189.495,"endTime":192.715,"body":"actually become an entrepreneur out of a trauma response."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":193.495,"endTime":197.19,"body":"And what I mean by that is, I felt the need to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":197.19,"endTime":200.25,"body":"prove myself, to prove my worthiness and my value"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":200.95,"endTime":204.57,"body":"to myself, to my mother in particular, and to the world."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":205.03,"endTime":208.41,"body":"And I did that through the vehicle of business ownership,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":208.795,"endTime":212.555,"body":"because it was something where I could control the environment, I could"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":212.555,"endTime":216.394,"body":"sort of recreate the environment, a healthier environment than"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":216.394,"endTime":220.075,"body":"the one that I had grown up in. And so, that was sort of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":220.075,"endTime":223.65,"body":"the inflection point. When I sold the company at"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":223.65,"endTime":227.03,"body":"36 years old, I really started to dive into"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":227.65,"endTime":231.03,"body":"more, I guess I would call them realms of spirituality"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":231.409,"endTime":235.25,"body":"and higher consciousness. And trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":235.25,"endTime":238.394,"body":"was a big part of that. Because as I was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":238.935,"endTime":242.235,"body":"exploring those realms, these"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":243.095,"endTime":246.534,"body":"feelings and memories and realities of my"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":246.534,"endTime":250.24,"body":"childhood really came to the forefront. And then"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":250.24,"endTime":253.84,"body":"I realised, wow, I am actually, by a long"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":253.84,"endTime":257.38,"body":"shot, not the only business owner or founder-entrepreneur"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":257.92,"endTime":261.76,"body":"who's dealing with these. Because as we know, every single one of us"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":261.76,"endTime":265.185,"body":"has experienced some type of trauma when we were"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":265.185,"endTime":268.944,"body":"younger, whether that was the big T that most people are familiar with,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":268.944,"endTime":272.465,"body":"or the small t, as you mentioned at the top of the show. So, that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":272.465,"endTime":275.905,"body":"is essentially what led me to coaching other"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":275.905,"endTime":279.66,"body":"leaders in particular around this idea of correlation between"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":279.72,"endTime":283.479,"body":"childhood trauma and effective leadership. So, you mentioned there"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":283.479,"endTime":287.0,"body":"that starting the company was effectively like your own"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":287.0,"endTime":290.46,"body":"reaction to a trauma. What was that trauma?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":291.074,"endTime":294.675,"body":"Well, I grew up in a household with a mother who"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":294.675,"endTime":298.294,"body":"had two comorbidity conditions, borderline"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":298.354,"endTime":302.035,"body":"personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":302.035,"endTime":305.794,"body":"didn't know those names or terms at the time. I just knew something"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":305.794,"endTime":309.15,"body":"felt really off. I knew that I couldn't do enough"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":309.53,"endTime":313.21,"body":"to earn her love. I knew that, in a weird way, she"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":313.21,"endTime":316.57,"body":"felt very competitive toward me. And"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":316.57,"endTime":320.25,"body":"she, also in a strange way, saw me as the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":320.25,"endTime":323.884,"body":"other woman in my father's life, hence the competition."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":324.425,"endTime":327.965,"body":"And so, there was quite a lot of physical abuse."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":328.905,"endTime":332.745,"body":"And along with that always typically comes emotional"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":332.745,"endTime":336.319,"body":"and mental abuse as well. I had a younger"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":336.319,"endTime":340.159,"body":"brother who was 13 months younger than I, and he didn't"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":340.159,"endTime":343.46,"body":"receive those things. So, it was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":344.08,"endTime":347.775,"body":"this clear indication to me that, this is what we do"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":347.775,"endTime":351.075,"body":"when we're younger, we turn it all inward, and we realise, and we think,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":351.455,"endTime":355.295,"body":"well, I must be the broken one, there's something wrong with me,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":355.295,"endTime":359.135,"body":"which is why this person is, this primary caregiver is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":359.135,"endTime":362.63,"body":"able to love this child, but not love"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":362.63,"endTime":366.25,"body":"me. And so, it must be me. And so, that created"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":366.39,"endTime":370.15,"body":"some very deep wounding around this idea of self-value and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":370.15,"endTime":373.91,"body":"worthiness and actually lovability. So, that's what"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":373.91,"endTime":377.375,"body":"I was working through in this route of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":377.375,"endTime":380.755,"body":"business ownership. So, what was the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":381.375,"endTime":385.055,"body":"gap or the void or the thing that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":385.055,"endTime":388.735,"body":"starting the business was a reaction to? Is it still like"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":388.735,"endTime":391.875,"body":"a personal validation thing or something like that?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":392.35,"endTime":396.19,"body":"Personal validation, competence. If you think"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":396.19,"endTime":400.03,"body":"about the way that I tried to earn love during that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":400.03,"endTime":403.39,"body":"time, I would get straight A's as a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":403.39,"endTime":407.135,"body":"student, I would really throw myself into the thing that I was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":407.135,"endTime":410.815,"body":"passionate about, which was art. I was very good"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":410.815,"endTime":414.335,"body":"at athletics, and so I was the captain of every sports team I was ever"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":414.335,"endTime":418.035,"body":"on. None of it could be enough. So, I was highly competent,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":418.255,"endTime":422.03,"body":"highly functioning, probably over functioning as a kid,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":422.729,"endTime":426.49,"body":"and I think all of those"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":426.49,"endTime":430.09,"body":"traits were natural components or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":430.09,"endTime":433.61,"body":"criteria of what we think of as effective business"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":433.61,"endTime":437.345,"body":"owners. Ones with a lot of grit and tenacity and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":437.485,"endTime":441.325,"body":"motivation and drive. And especially here in America, those"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":441.325,"endTime":444.865,"body":"things are praised, but no one knew that, under the surface,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":445.165,"endTime":448.539,"body":"this was really that response to that trauma and trying to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":448.539,"endTime":452.38,"body":"recreate a different environment for myself. And I'm conscious"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":452.38,"endTime":455.52,"body":"that I'm asking you to recall"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":456.38,"endTime":460.095,"body":"difficult memories, but you mentioned burnout there as well, which is something that's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":460.175,"endTime":463.695,"body":"come up a few times on the podcast, and I'm interested to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":463.695,"endTime":467.475,"body":"know, how did burnout show up for you, and how did you identify"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":467.855,"endTime":471.535,"body":"that that's what it was? That's a great"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":471.535,"endTime":474.995,"body":"question. I don't actually know that anyone has asked me that before."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":475.38,"endTime":479.22,"body":"I would say there was a physical component to it."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":479.22,"endTime":482.82,"body":"Certainly not taking care of myself, putting"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":482.82,"endTime":486.58,"body":"my own needs and self-care and health and well-being on"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":486.58,"endTime":490.395,"body":"the back burner. And so, over the course of the 14 years that I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":490.395,"endTime":494.235,"body":"owned the company, I had put on about 40 pounds. And"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":494.235,"endTime":497.915,"body":"I was a pretty young person, very active, having been in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":497.915,"endTime":501.595,"body":"sports and things like that. So, that was different for my body."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":501.595,"endTime":505.27,"body":"I would also say that from an emotional"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":505.27,"endTime":508.63,"body":"and psychological standpoint, I was just running on fumes."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":508.63,"endTime":512.47,"body":"And specifically the emotional side, I was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":512.47,"endTime":515.61,"body":"quite dysregulated. I would maybe"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":516.445,"endTime":520.044,"body":"not so much in the workplace, because I wanted to, again,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":520.044,"endTime":523.644,"body":"keep that environment of peace and calm, trying to recreate"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":523.644,"endTime":527.245,"body":"that environment, which was very chaotic, or recreate"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":527.245,"endTime":530.74,"body":"in a new way the environment from childhood, but"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":531.2,"endTime":534.98,"body":"at home, it was a different story. Right? So, there might have been something"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":535.76,"endTime":539.6,"body":"small that I had a larger reaction to. So, there"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":539.6,"endTime":543.295,"body":"was really no real way"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":543.295,"endTime":546.975,"body":"to have what was happening in terms"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":546.975,"endTime":550.595,"body":"of conflict match up with what my reaction was. So,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":551.375,"endTime":555.055,"body":"the fuse was quite short. And I think, looking"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":555.055,"endTime":558.41,"body":"back, there probably was an element of depression"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":558.41,"endTime":561.77,"body":"as well. I didn't go to a doctor for that."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":561.77,"endTime":565.529,"body":"There was no diagnosis. I don't take pharmaceuticals,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":566.01,"endTime":569.85,"body":"so I wouldn't have taken something. But in retrospect, I do think"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":569.85,"endTime":573.665,"body":"that there was an element of that. When I think of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":573.665,"endTime":577.425,"body":"burnout, I don't think about one thing. I think from the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":577.425,"endTime":580.644,"body":"holistic view, thinking about the spirit, the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":581.425,"endTime":584.565,"body":"body, the mind, overall. I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":585.185,"endTime":588.84,"body":"was functional from the outside"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":588.84,"endTime":592.44,"body":"looking in, what other people would perceive as functional,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":592.44,"endTime":595.96,"body":"but I didn't feel functional, which is why I ultimately"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":595.96,"endTime":598.36,"body":"sold the company at 36."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":599.875,"endTime":603.475,"body":"Thank you for sharing all that. I really appreciate it. And I think it's helpful"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":603.475,"endTime":607.014,"body":"for other people to hear from the experiences"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":607.475,"endTime":610.694,"body":"that someone has been through, just so they can"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":610.995,"endTime":614.75,"body":"maybe recognise something that's going on in their own lives"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":614.75,"endTime":618.51,"body":"and recognise that it's not just them, this is actually something that's pretty"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":618.51,"endTime":622.03,"body":"common. Yeah. Very common. And, again, I do"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":622.03,"endTime":625.63,"body":"think some part of it comes from childhood and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":625.63,"endTime":628.975,"body":"repetition of patterns, unhealthy patterns."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":629.274,"endTime":633.115,"body":"But I also think that the odds are stacked against us a little bit,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":633.115,"endTime":635.694,"body":"because the things that are unhealthy"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":636.795,"endTime":639.615,"body":"are actually praised. Right? So, overworking,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":640.634,"endTime":644.35,"body":"showing up and pushing through your emotions"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":644.41,"endTime":648.01,"body":"at all costs, your health, your emotional well-being, your"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":648.01,"endTime":651.15,"body":"psychological well-being. No one's really tracking that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":651.29,"endTime":655.13,"body":"in the workplace. So long as you're getting your work done, and you're"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":655.13,"endTime":658.485,"body":"doing it well, it doesn't matter what the cost is to you."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":658.945,"endTime":662.705,"body":"And I think that's where we veered off course, but that is probably a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":662.705,"endTime":666.305,"body":"whole another podcast. I think it probably is. And I'm just going to indulge"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":666.305,"endTime":669.81,"body":"myself for a minute to get on a soapbox. I was listening to a podcast"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":669.81,"endTime":673.41,"body":"actually the morning we're recording this, where there was someone who"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":673.41,"endTime":677.01,"body":"was saying that burnout should really be"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":677.01,"endTime":680.77,"body":"seen as a health and safety issue. So, it's not"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":680.77,"endTime":683.975,"body":"about the individual and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":684.115,"endTime":687.955,"body":"helping them to develop their resilience or that kind"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":687.955,"endTime":691.795,"body":"of thing. If, I don't know, there's a hole in the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":691.795,"endTime":695.475,"body":"floor or a trip hazard, and someone falls in the hole or someone trips over"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":695.475,"endTime":699.31,"body":"it, then the health and safety response is filling in the hole or removing"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":699.31,"endTime":702.99,"body":"the trip hazard. It's not training someone to get out of the hole or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":702.99,"endTime":706.67,"body":"to avoid the trip hazard. The same approach should be taken to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":706.67,"endTime":710.11,"body":"burnout. It's not just an individual thing. It's an"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":710.11,"endTime":713.565,"body":"environmental thing, a cultural, environmental thing. So, that's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":713.725,"endTime":717.325,"body":"the way that companies should be approaching it. And yeah, I hope that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":717.325,"endTime":720.605,"body":"message gets through. Yeah. I've seen"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":720.605,"endTime":724.145,"body":"in working with leaders and previously leadership"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":724.205,"endTime":727.805,"body":"teams, as a coach, I've seen a lot of, oh, well, this"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":727.805,"endTime":731.55,"body":"particular employee or this manager is struggling, we're"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":731.55,"endTime":734.91,"body":"going to give them three extra days off. And it's like,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":734.91,"endTime":738.67,"body":"wow! That band aid is, we need"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":738.67,"endTime":741.57,"body":"to really talk about what's going on in the culture before"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":741.63,"endTime":745.345,"body":"we're trying to apply these band"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":745.345,"endTime":748.785,"body":"aids that, again, put the onus on that individual."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":749.905,"endTime":753.185,"body":"Yeah. If the fish are dying, then there's something wrong with the lake, not with"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":753.185,"endTime":757.025,"body":"the fish. Anyway, we had better, actually, get into the topic that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":757.025,"endTime":759.9,"body":"I had you on to talk about. We talked about"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":760.76,"endTime":763.5,"body":"trauma a couple of times, and you"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":763.96,"endTime":767.8,"body":"used the expression big T, trauma. What does trauma mean?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":767.8,"endTime":771.645,"body":"What are we talking about here? So, I'll give you a couple"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":771.645,"endTime":775.485,"body":"of different ways to think about this or understand it. I always find that that's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":775.485,"endTime":779.245,"body":"helpful, because different ways of thinking about it may"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":779.245,"endTime":782.705,"body":"land for different people. So, we can think about"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":783.085,"endTime":786.305,"body":"trauma, the definition that I like best is simply"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":786.76,"endTime":790.54,"body":"unintegrated information and energy. Unintegrated"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":791.399,"endTime":794.839,"body":"information and energy. You're going to have to unpack that for me."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":795.72,"endTime":799.555,"body":"The reason why I like that definition is because it takes a lot of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":799.555,"endTime":803.235,"body":"the emotion and stigma out of trauma. Most"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":803.235,"endTime":806.855,"body":"people, when they think of trauma, they're thinking of these larger"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":807.395,"endTime":810.93,"body":"life events, right? So, if we go back to the Kaiser"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":810.93,"endTime":814.07,"body":"Permanente and CDC study in the late 1990s,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":814.85,"endTime":818.53,"body":"we think about the ACEs, Adverse Childhood Experiences. And"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":818.53,"endTime":822.29,"body":"so, most of our ideas about big T trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":822.29,"endTime":825.755,"body":"come from that. These 10 or so"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":826.215,"endTime":829.815,"body":"items that we might classify as big T trauma. So for"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":829.815,"endTime":833.435,"body":"example, growing up in a war-torn nation, living in a house where"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":833.815,"endTime":837.19,"body":"one of your caregivers has a mental illness,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":837.33,"endTime":841.01,"body":"being a child of parents who are divorced, maybe a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":841.01,"endTime":844.79,"body":"child of a parent who is incarcerated, maybe having"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":844.85,"endTime":848.61,"body":"a natural disaster in the area where you've grown"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":848.61,"endTime":852.225,"body":"up. Right? So, these large events or more,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":852.605,"endTime":855.904,"body":"quote-unquote, I'm using air quotes, more impactful events."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":856.764,"endTime":860.464,"body":"The reality is that most people don't understand"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":861.245,"endTime":864.839,"body":"small t trauma as just as impactful as those"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":864.839,"endTime":868.22,"body":"things. So, again, at the top of the show, you mentioned embarrassment,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":868.76,"endTime":872.36,"body":"betrayal. I would add humiliation, these types of things"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":872.36,"endTime":876.12,"body":"where they really cut our core self when we're younger, when"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":876.12,"endTime":879.715,"body":"we're just starting to form our senses of self,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":880.255,"endTime":883.935,"body":"these are typically more, we receive"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":883.935,"endTime":887.455,"body":"them on a more frequent basis. And so, it's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":887.455,"endTime":890.915,"body":"almost like these, you can think about those larger,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":890.975,"endTime":894.61,"body":"more impactful events, but on the same"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":894.83,"endTime":898.13,"body":"scale as death by 1,000 paper cuts."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":898.43,"endTime":902.05,"body":"So, they're smaller, they're maybe more frequent,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":902.59,"endTime":905.01,"body":"probably more frequent, and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":906.11,"endTime":909.475,"body":"over time, with the stacking and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":909.475,"endTime":912.135,"body":"compounding nature of them, it's still"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":912.835,"endTime":916.515,"body":"difficult for most people's nervous systems to really"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":916.515,"endTime":919.975,"body":"cope with that over and over and over again. So, it's a more continuous,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":920.195,"endTime":924.01,"body":"if you think about one as a big punch, and the other"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":924.01,"endTime":926.97,"body":"one is like a repetitive over and over and over again"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":926.97,"endTime":930.75,"body":"consistency. Both are, in my opinion, equally impactful,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":931.37,"endTime":935.13,"body":"but we don't talk about the small t stuff. Aren't these"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":935.13,"endTime":938.935,"body":"things that you've described as small t just facts of life? I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":938.935,"endTime":942.475,"body":"mean, anyone who's been through puberty has probably been"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":942.535,"endTime":945.995,"body":"embarrassed and maybe humiliated. I mean, it's just"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":946.375,"endTime":950.215,"body":"part of growing up. Yes. And that it's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":950.215,"endTime":953.79,"body":"the compounding nature of those things. So, this isn't a one-off,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":953.949,"endTime":957.709,"body":"oh, you tripped in the cafeteria, and all of your food"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":957.709,"endTime":961.389,"body":"went on the floor. Right? And that was the only thing that you've ever"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":961.389,"endTime":965.149,"body":"felt embarrassed or humiliated over. If that were the case, I don't think that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":965.149,"endTime":968.904,"body":"that would be as impactful. Maybe you would have some"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":968.904,"endTime":971.565,"body":"friends who would rush over and help you or a teacher."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":971.704,"endTime":975.464,"body":"So, there would be evidence that it wasn't you."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":975.464,"endTime":979.17,"body":"It was a mistake. And that is a normal part of life. But I'm"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":979.17,"endTime":982.93,"body":"talking about with these small t traumas and why they're considered traumas is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":982.93,"endTime":986.77,"body":"that compounding effect, when that is happening to you over and over and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":986.77,"endTime":990.53,"body":"over again. And that's not necessarily just a fact"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":990.53,"endTime":993.205,"body":"of life for most people. For example,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":993.205,"endTime":996.025,"body":"in childhood, if you have an uncle"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":996.565,"endTime":1000.405,"body":"who really needles you and puts you down every"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1000.405,"endTime":1003.845,"body":"single time you see this person, over"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1003.845,"endTime":1007.48,"body":"time, your nervous system may not be able"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1007.48,"endTime":1010.46,"body":"to cope with that, and so you may develop"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1011.08,"endTime":1014.44,"body":"some kind of, I don't even know what the word is, but you would"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1014.44,"endTime":1017.32,"body":"develop some resistance or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1017.32,"endTime":1020.925,"body":"something that would be known to you in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1020.925,"endTime":1024.685,"body":"your body every time you encounter a person just"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1024.685,"endTime":1028.305,"body":"like that when you get older. As one example."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1028.845,"endTime":1032.365,"body":"So, it really comes down to that nervous system's inability to cope. That's what makes"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1032.365,"endTime":1035.759,"body":"a trauma. I'm interested in the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1035.759,"endTime":1039.44,"body":"word unintegrated, which I feel leads on"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1039.44,"endTime":1043.279,"body":"from what you were just saying. So, can you develop what that means in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1043.279,"endTime":1046.419,"body":"this context? Yeah. So, using those examples..."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1046.72,"endTime":1050.555,"body":"Or maybe we'll use different"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1050.555,"endTime":1053.915,"body":"examples. If we have something"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1053.915,"endTime":1057.755,"body":"traumatic happened to us, it's not really the event,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1057.755,"endTime":1061.595,"body":"it's what happens inside of our body as a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1061.595,"endTime":1065.31,"body":"result of an event, if we are able to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1066.01,"endTime":1069.79,"body":"repair or would I say integrate that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1069.85,"endTime":1073.69,"body":"in the moment, something happens and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1073.69,"endTime":1077.31,"body":"another person comes over and says, 'You know that that wasn't your fault\","},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1077.45,"endTime":1081.024,"body":"there's a way in which we understand, okay, this"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1081.024,"endTime":1084.085,"body":"thing happened either to us, or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1084.784,"endTime":1088.465,"body":"we've made a mistake, or what have you. And in the moment, if"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1088.465,"endTime":1092.12,"body":"it's repaired, the nervous system has the ability to say,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1092.28,"endTime":1096.12,"body":"'Okay, I'm feeling this thing, and, oh, right, okay, now I can cope with it',"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1096.12,"endTime":1099.96,"body":"sort of in the moment. It's the time period between"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1099.96,"endTime":1103.72,"body":"when something happens and our ability to cope with"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1103.72,"endTime":1107.465,"body":"it. If those things, whether it's big T or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1107.605,"endTime":1110.345,"body":"small t trauma, if those things"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1111.125,"endTime":1114.965,"body":"are unable to be integrated in that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1114.965,"endTime":1118.77,"body":"moment, they compound inside of us. And then,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1118.77,"endTime":1122.21,"body":"we look for confirmation bias of the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1122.21,"endTime":1124.79,"body":"stories that get created around them."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1125.41,"endTime":1128.55,"body":"This is what we're talking about with unintegration."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1129.41,"endTime":1132.905,"body":"Another example of this might be, we can go to a big T trauma,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1132.965,"endTime":1136.665,"body":"maybe there's an element of sexual abuse"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1137.045,"endTime":1140.665,"body":"in childhood. Now, if that is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1141.525,"endTime":1145.205,"body":"shamed, or the person who's on"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1145.205,"endTime":1148.75,"body":"the receiving end of that doesn't feel like they have anyone to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1148.75,"endTime":1152.53,"body":"talk to, they push it down, they repress it,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1153.63,"endTime":1157.25,"body":"maybe it comes up in some other way in adulthood."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1158.03,"endTime":1161.65,"body":"If it's not integrated, what happens is, all of that shame,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1162.054,"endTime":1165.414,"body":"all of that self-loathing, all of the stories that are"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1165.414,"endTime":1169.115,"body":"created about that event and that experience,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1170.135,"endTime":1173.674,"body":"that can come out sideways. Their wounding"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1173.895,"endTime":1177.674,"body":"can be projected, their pain can be projected on other people."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1178.11,"endTime":1181.649,"body":"So, that would be an example of unintegrated"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1181.95,"endTime":1185.63,"body":"trauma. Now, when I say unintegrated, we can't"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1185.63,"endTime":1189.23,"body":"change the fact that trauma happened. It is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1189.23,"endTime":1192.995,"body":"a fact of life, and every single one of us has experienced this"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1192.995,"endTime":1196.675,"body":"in some way, shape or form. The difference between an effective and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1196.675,"endTime":1200.435,"body":"healthy leader, I might even say a high conscious leader, is that they're"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1200.435,"endTime":1204.275,"body":"actively doing the work to integrate that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1204.275,"endTime":1207.909,"body":"trauma. Not to say that didn't happen, but to say, yes,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1207.909,"endTime":1211.669,"body":"that happened, that was not my fault, and I've"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1211.669,"endTime":1214.97,"body":"done the work to really integrate that into"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1215.429,"endTime":1219.245,"body":"the whole part of my being, as opposed"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1219.245,"endTime":1223.005,"body":"to pushing it aside, pretending it didn't happen, all"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1223.005,"endTime":1226.845,"body":"of that kind of thing. Does that answer help? Does"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1226.845,"endTime":1229.985,"body":"it get us closer to an understanding of integration?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1231.42,"endTime":1235.1,"body":"I'm definitely going to want to come back to that question of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1235.1,"endTime":1238.7,"body":"integration and what that can look like. But before we get there, can you"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1238.7,"endTime":1242.32,"body":"talk about some of the ways that trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1242.62,"endTime":1246.445,"body":"might show up in everyday work? So, say there"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1246.445,"endTime":1250.285,"body":"is big T or little t trauma in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1250.285,"endTime":1253.885,"body":"the past, how does that present itself, if you"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1253.885,"endTime":1255.965,"body":"like? I mean, because"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1255.965,"endTime":1259.62,"body":"there are so many ways in which we can"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1259.62,"endTime":1262.76,"body":"experience trauma, there are equally as many ways"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1263.46,"endTime":1267.3,"body":"as we experience it in the workplace. For example then. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1267.3,"endTime":1270.66,"body":"Now some of that could be from"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1270.66,"endTime":1274.065,"body":"childhood, again, I'll use the example that I had"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1274.065,"endTime":1277.684,"body":"before, where someone may have"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1277.825,"endTime":1281.585,"body":"a reaction that doesn't seem equal to the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1281.585,"endTime":1285.125,"body":"experience that they're having. So, let's say someone gives feedback."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1285.94,"endTime":1289.32,"body":"And the feedback is, you're doing a great job in these areas,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1289.54,"endTime":1293.32,"body":"here are some areas where some improvement needs to be made."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1293.94,"endTime":1297.78,"body":"Now that seems quite benign. But if someone"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1297.78,"endTime":1301.465,"body":"has an extremely defensive response to that, that could"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1301.465,"endTime":1304.905,"body":"indicate that there was something in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1304.905,"endTime":1308.745,"body":"childhood where they were meant to feel wrong,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1308.745,"endTime":1312.505,"body":"they were meant to feel maybe powerless. And because that trauma was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1312.505,"endTime":1316.06,"body":"not integrated, now the reaction to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1316.06,"endTime":1319.28,"body":"this what we might call benign feedback"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1319.74,"endTime":1323.36,"body":"is so much larger, seems out of proportion,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1323.5,"endTime":1327.26,"body":"disproportionate to what were the feedback that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1327.26,"endTime":1331.015,"body":"they're given. So, that's an example. But again, you can see, even"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1331.015,"endTime":1334.615,"body":"just from that one example, how many different ways that could show"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1334.615,"endTime":1338.375,"body":"up. And then, I also want to hold that some of this may not be"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1338.375,"endTime":1341.929,"body":"from childhood. There is certainly trauma that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1341.929,"endTime":1345.389,"body":"gets played out in the workplace in adulthood."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1346.01,"endTime":1349.549,"body":"We have discrimination. We have misogyny."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1349.769,"endTime":1353.45,"body":"We have all sorts of things that happen traumatically in the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1353.45,"endTime":1357.265,"body":"workplace, that may have nothing to do with childhood, or may"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1357.265,"endTime":1360.705,"body":"be that confirmation bias that I talked about before. An"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1360.705,"endTime":1364.005,"body":"unsupportive boss is something that comes to mind. Sure."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1364.385,"endTime":1367.445,"body":"Absolutely. Because sometimes the unsupportive"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1367.745,"endTime":1371.17,"body":"boss feels just like a mom, or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1371.17,"endTime":1374.93,"body":"dad, or a caregiver who was also"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1374.93,"endTime":1378.39,"body":"unsupportive in childhood. And so, that friction"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1378.93,"endTime":1382.61,"body":"internally is going to make it very difficult to work in that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1382.61,"endTime":1386.215,"body":"environment, particularly if that person is not working on"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1386.355,"endTime":1389.014,"body":"the things that they've experienced when they were younger."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1390.195,"endTime":1393.794,"body":"Is it important to identify that there is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1393.794,"endTime":1397.495,"body":"some kind of underlying trauma going on here?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1398.73,"endTime":1402.11,"body":"And if so, how would you identify"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1402.41,"endTime":1406.17,"body":"that that is what it is? I mean, that's a great question. I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1406.17,"endTime":1410.01,"body":"guess my counter question would be, is it important"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1410.01,"endTime":1413.745,"body":"to who? Is it important to a leader? Is it important to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1413.745,"endTime":1417.505,"body":"the person, the employee? I think it"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1417.505,"endTime":1421.024,"body":"depends on what's happening. If"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1421.024,"endTime":1424.64,"body":"there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1424.64,"endTime":1427.94,"body":"conflict, let's say between an employee and a manager,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1428.559,"endTime":1432.32,"body":"and this one particular employee is the only one"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1432.32,"endTime":1436.159,"body":"who's having this experience, it might be that there's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1436.159,"endTime":1439.654,"body":"some trauma where the manager is pushing"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1439.654,"endTime":1443.495,"body":"against that. So, again, is it important"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1443.495,"endTime":1447.335,"body":"to the manager to figure out what's going on here? Is it"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1447.335,"endTime":1451.04,"body":"important to the employee, so they can figure figure out, well,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1451.04,"endTime":1454.4,"body":"if I don't have the luxury of going to find a new job, and I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1454.4,"endTime":1458.24,"body":"have to work with this person, maybe I need to really look into what"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1458.24,"endTime":1461.7,"body":"is it about this person who's activating me?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1462.08,"endTime":1464.16,"body":"Is it the way that they're speaking to me?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1464.16,"endTime":1467.615,"body":"What from my childhood"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1467.995,"endTime":1470.895,"body":"might have looked very similar to this?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1471.515,"endTime":1475.275,"body":"And I do trauma informed leadership coaching. So, for"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1475.275,"endTime":1478.88,"body":"me, I'm working with the managers and the executives and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1478.88,"endTime":1482.72,"body":"C-suite, so that they are more trauma informed, so that they can start"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1482.72,"endTime":1486.56,"body":"to recognise some of these things. And that does not mean that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1486.56,"endTime":1489.86,"body":"these leaders are becoming therapists or coaches"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1489.92,"endTime":1493.275,"body":"even or counsellors. They're not unpacking any of these"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1493.275,"endTime":1496.955,"body":"things. They're not diagnosing these people. But just to have an"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1496.955,"endTime":1500.554,"body":"awareness of, for"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1500.554,"endTime":1503.775,"body":"example, when the murder of George Floyd happened,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1504.715,"endTime":1508.17,"body":"there was not a lot of understanding"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1509.51,"endTime":1512.25,"body":"of racism in the workplace,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1513.19,"endTime":1516.81,"body":"covert or overt. There was not a lot of understanding of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1517.03,"endTime":1520.775,"body":"how our black and brown employees really"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1520.775,"endTime":1524.455,"body":"felt inside of these patriarchal and racist"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1524.455,"endTime":1528.135,"body":"systems. And so, working with leaders who were"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1528.135,"endTime":1531.815,"body":"very willing to say, 'I want to understand. I want to understand the experience of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1531.815,"endTime":1535.51,"body":"these employees who are very dear to me', now it took a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1535.51,"endTime":1539.19,"body":"very conscious leader to raise their hand and say, 'I'm willing to do"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1539.19,"endTime":1543.03,"body":"that. I want to do that', many people did almost the opposite."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1543.03,"endTime":1546.455,"body":"They maybe brought in a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1546.755,"endTime":1550.435,"body":"singular workshop about racism in the workplace and said,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1550.435,"endTime":1553.975,"body":"'Okay, we've checked the box.' Again, separate podcast. But"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1554.115,"endTime":1557.795,"body":"yeah, I mean, there are lots of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1557.795,"endTime":1561.095,"body":"ways that we can think about this. Again, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1561.45,"endTime":1565.21,"body":"from the leader desiring that, or the employee wanting to say,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1565.21,"endTime":1567.29,"body":"'How do I exist inside of this organisation?'"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1569.93,"endTime":1573.61,"body":"Let's focus on the employee, the individual, so what's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1573.61,"endTime":1576.804,"body":"going on for them, rather than their own"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1577.024,"endTime":1580.625,"body":"leader. So, say they are starting to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1580.625,"endTime":1584.304,"body":"recognise there is something off, and they"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1584.304,"endTime":1588.144,"body":"think, okay, maybe this is a response to some kind"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1588.144,"endTime":1591.4,"body":"of trauma. How important is it to identify"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1592.26,"endTime":1595.86,"body":"what that trauma is? Because I can easily see someone"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1595.86,"endTime":1599.0,"body":"going absolutely crazy analysing their"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1599.62,"endTime":1603.335,"body":"past from last week all the way back down to childhood, and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1603.654,"endTime":1607.034,"body":"trying to comb through and figuring out what might have been the traumatic events."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1607.654,"endTime":1611.355,"body":"Yeah. I think the details of the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1611.895,"endTime":1615.674,"body":"past trauma are slightly less important."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1616.22,"endTime":1620.0,"body":"I think it's more, hey, where did this potentially"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1620.22,"endTime":1623.9,"body":"show up in my past? Or did this potentially show up in my past? And"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1623.9,"endTime":1627.44,"body":"is that why I'm having a disproportionate reaction"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1627.58,"endTime":1630.965,"body":"here? And that takes an incredible amount of self-awareness."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1631.265,"endTime":1634.865,"body":"There are a lot of employees who struggle with their"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1634.865,"endTime":1638.705,"body":"managers, their bosses. And I think"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1638.705,"endTime":1642.225,"body":"it's a lot easier for people to, again, project pain and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1642.225,"endTime":1645.97,"body":"blame others. And so, you're"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1645.97,"endTime":1649.65,"body":"asking, is it important? I think it's important to look at"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1649.65,"endTime":1653.33,"body":"that 360-degree view to say, where is my"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1653.33,"endTime":1657.065,"body":"part in this? Where am I contributing to this? What"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1657.065,"endTime":1660.284,"body":"from my past might be involved in this"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1661.544,"endTime":1665.225,"body":"dynamic? But unpacking and going back and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1665.225,"endTime":1668.845,"body":"trying to really figure out, and maybe even trying to retrofit,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1669.784,"endTime":1673.37,"body":"doesn't feel beneficial to me. Even with the coaching that I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1673.37,"endTime":1676.97,"body":"do, we might have a deep dive session in the beginning to go"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1676.97,"endTime":1680.429,"body":"through, how did you grow up, what was the relationship with you and your caregivers"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1680.57,"endTime":1684.269,"body":"and the relationship between them, just to kind of give us a foundation"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1684.649,"endTime":1688.305,"body":"of where could some of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1688.305,"endTime":1691.985,"body":"these things point to, right? It's almost like trying to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1691.985,"endTime":1695.445,"body":"map it a little bit. But it's like map light,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1696.145,"endTime":1699.29,"body":"just to make some correlations. We're not"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1699.37,"endTime":1703.21,"body":"sitting in the past and trying to go"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1703.21,"endTime":1706.33,"body":"into all of that. That would be the work of a therapist, and that's a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1706.33,"endTime":1709.87,"body":"very different lane. So, you talked about"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1710.57,"endTime":1713.95,"body":"integration. And so, it sounds like there is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1714.165,"endTime":1717.385,"body":"a piece of work to do which is integrating"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1717.765,"endTime":1721.145,"body":"the trauma into oneself."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1721.845,"endTime":1725.205,"body":"What does success look like? I mean, how do you know"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1725.205,"endTime":1728.89,"body":"that you've achieved this? Yeah. That's a great question."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1728.95,"endTime":1732.63,"body":"As we know, trauma is not one-and-done. Things"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1732.63,"endTime":1736.15,"body":"that evoke emotion or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1736.15,"endTime":1739.99,"body":"evoke semblances of experiences that we've had when we"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1739.99,"endTime":1743.695,"body":"were younger, they spiral upwards, meaning they"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1743.695,"endTime":1747.054,"body":"come back around in different forms with different"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1747.054,"endTime":1750.735,"body":"people, but the brand of it is essentially"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1750.735,"endTime":1754.335,"body":"the same. So, I might call that activation, some people call it"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1754.335,"endTime":1757.9,"body":"triggering. I don't love that word, so I use activation."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1758.44,"endTime":1762.2,"body":"And so, having these things come back"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1762.2,"endTime":1765.96,"body":"around over and over and over again, how you would"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1765.96,"endTime":1769.725,"body":"know that the work is working, that the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1769.725,"endTime":1773.485,"body":"integration is happening, is that each time these things come"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1773.485,"endTime":1777.245,"body":"back around in their different forms, the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1777.245,"endTime":1780.945,"body":"activation is less and less. Your ability to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1781.325,"endTime":1784.919,"body":"cope, to recover, to make sense of,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1784.919,"endTime":1787.98,"body":"to reframe is much easier"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1788.52,"endTime":1792.279,"body":"as these things come back around over and over again. That's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1792.279,"endTime":1795.988,"body":"what I would look at as success. And at some point, I mean, we're not"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1795.988,"endTime":1799.83,"body":"looking for perfection, so it's not like, oh, at some point,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1799.83,"endTime":1800.761,"body":"this will be completely gone. These things are stored in our body. We know that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1800.761,"endTime":1804.184,"body":"from the work of Bessel van der Kolk, and many others."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1804.184,"endTime":1806.365,"body":"Trauma is stored in our body."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1811.95,"endTime":1815.07,"body":"So, we're not looking to get rid of it, which is why we use the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1815.07,"endTime":1818.75,"body":"word integration, not removal. So, yeah, you see, as we're"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1818.75,"endTime":1822.269,"body":"talking, looking at this and talking about it in slightly different ways"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1822.269,"endTime":1825.985,"body":"maybe helps to bring about a definition that lands for each"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1825.985,"endTime":1829.365,"body":"individual person. Okay. So, this isn't"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1829.425,"endTime":1833.265,"body":"about, I'm almost certainly going to use a little wrong language here,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1833.265,"endTime":1837.025,"body":"but this isn't about cure as such. This is about something"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1837.025,"endTime":1840.409,"body":"which has happened, it's in there, and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1841.029,"endTime":1844.649,"body":"it's almost like managing"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1844.789,"endTime":1848.409,"body":"reactions to the situations that bring"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1848.549,"endTime":1851.029,"body":"it to the fore. I think that's the best I can do off the top"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1851.029,"endTime":1854.715,"body":"of my head. Yeah. Your word cure isn't"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1854.934,"endTime":1858.375,"body":"incorrect here. I would use a synonym of healed, past"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1858.375,"endTime":1862.054,"body":"tense. We're not looking for that. To me,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1862.054,"endTime":1865.88,"body":"I have said this in the book, it's an impossibility. I don't"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1865.88,"endTime":1869.24,"body":"think of things as being able to be healed. These aren't"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1869.24,"endTime":1873.08,"body":"wounds on our skin that can be healed, and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1873.08,"endTime":1876.679,"body":"you'll have the ability to not even know that something had"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1876.679,"endTime":1879.475,"body":"taken place. It is about"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1879.535,"endTime":1883.375,"body":"actively healing, present tense, and it"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1883.375,"endTime":1887.135,"body":"gets easier and easier and easier each time these"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1887.135,"endTime":1890.495,"body":"things come around for us. What can someone do by"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1890.495,"endTime":1894.23,"body":"themselves? Well, I think"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1894.23,"endTime":1897.75,"body":"that one gateway is, well, I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1897.91,"endTime":1900.81,"body":"guess when you say 'by yourself', do you mean without"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1901.43,"endTime":1905.11,"body":"any support whatsoever? Yeah. I'd like"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1905.11,"endTime":1908.49,"body":"to come on to what external"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1908.795,"endTime":1912.335,"body":"support could look like. But before we get there, what"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1912.555,"endTime":1915.355,"body":"are some of the things that someone who's listening to you, and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1915.355,"endTime":1919.035,"body":"maybe they can easily identify that, I don't know, they"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1919.035,"endTime":1922.84,"body":"were bullied at school for being the school swash"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1922.84,"endTime":1924.12,"body":"or something, and they're"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1925.24,"endTime":1928.92,"body":"recognising how that's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1928.92,"endTime":1932.44,"body":"showing up, and so they're tying the two together."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1932.44,"endTime":1936.255,"body":"So, what are some of the things that maybe they"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1936.255,"endTime":1939.875,"body":"can do on their own which will help them to integrate"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1940.015,"endTime":1943.455,"body":"this, as you say, and to not get, to use the word you don't like,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1943.455,"endTime":1946.035,"body":"triggered by situations? So,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1947.02,"endTime":1950.62,"body":"there are a number of things that you can do on your own. Journaling"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1950.62,"endTime":1954.22,"body":"is probably one of the first things that comes to mind."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1954.22,"endTime":1957.899,"body":"Meditation, to really just"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1957.899,"endTime":1961.375,"body":"create more space. And some people meditate"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1961.375,"endTime":1964.815,"body":"in different ways. Sometimes it's just open-ended."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1964.815,"endTime":1968.175,"body":"Sometimes it's guided meditation. These are things that you don't need"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1968.175,"endTime":1971.855,"body":"external practitioners for. If it's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1971.855,"endTime":1975.65,"body":"a guided meditation, obviously you're listening to a track. But journaling,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1975.71,"endTime":1978.67,"body":"meditation, I think,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1978.67,"endTime":1982.43,"body":"somatic movement. So, just moving"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1982.43,"endTime":1986.19,"body":"the body, because we talked about it being trapped and stored inside of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1986.19,"endTime":1989.855,"body":"the body. So, movement, whatever that looks like for someone. That could be developing"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1989.855,"endTime":1992.495,"body":"a yoga practice, that could be walking in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1992.495,"endTime":1996.095,"body":"the woods. That could be all sorts of different"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1996.095,"endTime":1999.615,"body":"things. It doesn't require, in some cases,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":1999.615,"endTime":2003.34,"body":"any money or other practitioners. Those are things that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2003.34,"endTime":2007.1,"body":"you can do on your own. And I do think that part"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2007.1,"endTime":2010.94,"body":"of the healing journey does require support from other people,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2010.94,"endTime":2013.26,"body":"because you'll only be able to get so far"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2013.26,"endTime":2016.885,"body":"by yourself. And here's where the integration"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2016.885,"endTime":2020.725,"body":"process comes in. You're doing some work on your own. You're doing some work"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2020.725,"endTime":2024.565,"body":"with a practitioner. You might even be doing some work in a group"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2024.565,"endTime":2028.405,"body":"setting, a community setting. There's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2028.405,"endTime":2032.1,"body":"power in healing in community. And then, you go back to doing"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2032.64,"endTime":2036.4,"body":"the work on your own to integrate what you've just done with"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2036.48,"endTime":2040.32,"body":"the practitioner or in community. And it just goes like that, on and on. You"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2040.32,"endTime":2044.0,"body":"don't have to be doing this full time. You wouldn't be able to get much"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2044.0,"endTime":2047.465,"body":"else done. But at your own pace. And that's part of how"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2047.465,"endTime":2050.445,"body":"integration works. And recognising"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2051.145,"endTime":2054.984,"body":"that it is phenomenally subjective, when might"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2054.984,"endTime":2058.525,"body":"someone think about getting external support?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2059.75,"endTime":2063.35,"body":"Yeah. Very subjective. I mean, I think once you"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2063.35,"endTime":2066.81,"body":"have the little bit of self-awareness,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2067.19,"endTime":2070.87,"body":"where you've gotten to say, 'Hmm, this is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2070.87,"endTime":2073.05,"body":"interesting', you start to get curious, I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2074.554,"endTime":2077.935,"body":"wonder what my role in this 'blank' is."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2078.795,"endTime":2081.775,"body":"This conflict, this repetitive pattern, this"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2082.554,"endTime":2086.015,"body":"difficulty at work. I wonder what might"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2086.34,"endTime":2089.78,"body":"be going on inside of me or what my contribution to this is. That"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2089.78,"endTime":2093.62,"body":"little opening of curiosity, I think is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2093.62,"endTime":2097.46,"body":"a good place to say, 'Okay, now maybe let me go speak"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2097.46,"endTime":2101.095,"body":"to someone.' And I do think that talk therapy is a great"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2101.095,"endTime":2104.395,"body":"gateway. I don't think it is a trauma integration"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2104.775,"endTime":2108.555,"body":"modality, but it is certainly a part of mental"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2108.855,"endTime":2112.075,"body":"health maintenance. And I think it's a great entrance into that work."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2113.35,"endTime":2116.172,"body":"You're going to have to help me out there. You said talk therapy isn't something,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2116.173,"endTime":2118.202,"body":"and I think a lot of people are going to get, 'Huh?'"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2120.07,"endTime":2123.83,"body":"Yeah. So, there's a bifurcation that I talk"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2123.83,"endTime":2127.59,"body":"about in the book, which may be an unpopular opinion. But"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2127.59,"endTime":2131.425,"body":"again, we all have our opinions. Based on my experience,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2132.685,"endTime":2136.285,"body":"talk therapy is wonderful if you've never spoken"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2136.285,"endTime":2139.905,"body":"to a mental health professional. I think about"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2140.125,"endTime":2143.185,"body":"talk therapy as everything from today backwards."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2144.1,"endTime":2147.7,"body":"You're calling through the past, you're talking"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2147.7,"endTime":2151.0,"body":"about your childhood, you're talking about different things that might be"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2151.3,"endTime":2155.06,"body":"happening on that whole spectrum between today and pretty"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2155.06,"endTime":2158.455,"body":"much the day you were born. And you're revisiting"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2158.675,"endTime":2162.515,"body":"and recollecting all of those experiences and those"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2162.515,"endTime":2166.275,"body":"moments and those emotions, and really sorting through and parsing all"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2166.275,"endTime":2170.05,"body":"of that out. And that's very helpful. And"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2170.05,"endTime":2173.75,"body":"there's a way in which only focusing on the past"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2174.29,"endTime":2177.83,"body":"and talking about it can actually be re-traumatising."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2178.85,"endTime":2182.685,"body":"So, again, if trauma is stored in the body, and all"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2182.685,"endTime":2186.365,"body":"we're doing is thinking about it cerebrally, and there's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2186.365,"endTime":2189.805,"body":"no somatic component, no movement component to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2189.805,"endTime":2193.645,"body":"actually release that out of the body, then it can only"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2193.645,"endTime":2197.09,"body":"get you so far. So, that's why I don't consider it a trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2197.09,"endTime":2200.93,"body":"integration modality. I think of talk therapy as only mental"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2200.93,"endTime":2204.45,"body":"health maintenance. Which is also why you see many"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2204.45,"endTime":2207.73,"body":"people who have a therapist for years and years and years, I know many people,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2207.73,"endTime":2211.494,"body":"10, 20 years they're with the same therapist. Trauma integration is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2211.494,"endTime":2215.015,"body":"different work, and it doesn't really require that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2215.015,"endTime":2218.775,"body":"longevity, because you're unearthing something out of the body, and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2218.775,"endTime":2222.56,"body":"then releasing that. Not to say that you wouldn't do"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2222.56,"endTime":2226.24,"body":"that over and over again, but it's quite different. So,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2226.24,"endTime":2229.94,"body":"I do think that there's a bifurcation there. Okay."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2230.16,"endTime":2233.76,"body":"So, if you're not looking for talking"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2233.76,"endTime":2237.565,"body":"therapy, what do you Google in terms of the practitioner"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2237.945,"endTime":2241.305,"body":"that you want? I mean, I'm sure you could do, I don't know, trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2241.305,"endTime":2244.105,"body":"integration something or other. But I mean,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2244.105,"endTime":2247.865,"body":"is this coaching? What is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2247.865,"endTime":2251.52,"body":"it? I mean, again, there's a million different ways to do"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2251.52,"endTime":2255.2,"body":"this, but it would be probably a somatic practitioner. So,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2255.2,"endTime":2259.04,"body":"somatic therapist, it could be a trauma informed coach,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2259.04,"endTime":2262.805,"body":"because a trauma informed coach will also understand that trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2262.805,"endTime":2266.485,"body":"needs to be released from the body. But honestly, all of those trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2266.485,"endTime":2270.185,"body":"integration modalities, there's thousands of them."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2270.645,"endTime":2274.325,"body":"And this is a very popular question, it's a common"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2274.325,"endTime":2278.17,"body":"question as to like, where do I start? And in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2278.17,"endTime":2281.869,"body":"the book, I did talk about an educational"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2282.09,"endTime":2285.69,"body":"resource that I put together, because I had gotten this question so many times. Like,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2285.69,"endTime":2289.384,"body":"oh, this sounds great, but where do I start? Yes, I understand, I can"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2289.384,"endTime":2293.144,"body":"start with a therapist to do some cognitive behavioural therapy or talk"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2293.144,"endTime":2296.825,"body":"therapy, but where do I go from there? Everyone has a different"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2296.825,"endTime":2300.67,"body":"path. So, you really have to find the modalities that are calling to you."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2300.91,"endTime":2304.43,"body":"That could be looking like energy work. That could look"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2304.43,"endTime":2308.03,"body":"like, again, yoga. There's so many, it's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2308.03,"endTime":2311.23,"body":"like, you know, we could sit here all day and name them out. But that's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2311.23,"endTime":2314.91,"body":"why I developed that resource, so that people could look and say,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2314.91,"endTime":2318.734,"body":"'Okay, well, which of these starts to call to me? Which"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2318.734,"endTime":2322.275,"body":"feels resonant and something that feels accessible for me"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2322.414,"endTime":2326.174,"body":"to move to next?' I think what this is telling me,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2326.174,"endTime":2329.535,"body":"I'm someone who, I just want to know what the answer is. I just want"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2329.535,"endTime":2332.71,"body":"to know who's the person who's going to fix me here. But it sounds like"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2332.71,"endTime":2336.15,"body":"what you're saying is that it's very much an exploration."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2336.15,"endTime":2339.59,"body":"It's going to have to be a little bit of trial and error and see"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2339.59,"endTime":2342.39,"body":"what works for you. Yeah. And I want to say two things."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2342.39,"endTime":2346.15,"body":"What you just said, who's the person who's going to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2346.15,"endTime":2349.905,"body":"fix me, I think, is a very also"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2350.205,"endTime":2353.805,"body":"common question. Because in our society"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2353.805,"endTime":2357.345,"body":"today, we've all been trained to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2357.485,"endTime":2360.945,"body":"find the magic bullet and to outsource that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2361.819,"endTime":2365.579,"body":"work. There's got to be some healer or some this or some"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2365.579,"endTime":2368.94,"body":"that. And that's just not the way that this works. So, first of all,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2368.94,"endTime":2372.619,"body":"my belief as a coach is that there is nothing to fix"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2372.619,"endTime":2376.315,"body":"because there is no one who is broken. It's about returning to the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2376.315,"endTime":2379.915,"body":"wholeness of who we are, because what's happened is, with trauma,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2379.915,"endTime":2382.575,"body":"it's essentially removed pieces"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2383.355,"endTime":2387.195,"body":"of us in a way or suppressed pieces of us."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2387.915,"endTime":2391.7,"body":"Or maybe even if you think about it, I like a lot of visuals with"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2391.7,"endTime":2395.48,"body":"these things, so it's almost like layers of accumulated"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2395.78,"endTime":2399.46,"body":"silt, on top of the true"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2399.46,"endTime":2403.06,"body":"nature of who we are. And so, our job is actually not to fix anything,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2403.06,"endTime":2406.744,"body":"it's just to remove the masks and the silt and the layers"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2406.744,"endTime":2410.505,"body":"of other people's stories and the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2410.505,"endTime":2414.185,"body":"negative experiences that those stories are"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2414.185,"endTime":2417.645,"body":"based on. I know this is, you know, you want,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2418.025,"endTime":2421.805,"body":"I hear that you want this magic bullet answer."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2421.945,"endTime":2425.57,"body":"It just doesn't work like that. And there's nothing to fix. That was the first"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2425.57,"endTime":2429.17,"body":"thing that I wanted to say. And I think"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2429.17,"endTime":2432.63,"body":"most people, I can't speak to everyone, but"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2433.01,"endTime":2436.605,"body":"most people would say, if we're trying to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2436.605,"endTime":2440.445,"body":"find the external person to save us or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2440.445,"endTime":2444.285,"body":"fix us or repair us, most people who are on this journey come"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2444.285,"endTime":2447.725,"body":"to realise that they are the only ones who can do that ultimately for"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2447.725,"endTime":2451.24,"body":"themselves. But it's through working with others,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2451.7,"endTime":2455.539,"body":"doing some integration work, working in community, doing some integration"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2455.539,"endTime":2458.839,"body":"work. So, it's very much an oscillating process."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2459.38,"endTime":2463.205,"body":"You think about a dahlia, the way that a dahlia grows, if you've ever seen"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2463.205,"endTime":2466.885,"body":"it in slow motion, it's quite fascinating. Every"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2466.885,"endTime":2470.265,"body":"time it wants to bloom larger, it contracts,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2471.045,"endTime":2474.085,"body":"and then it grows a little larger, and then it contracts, and then it grows"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2474.085,"endTime":2477.92,"body":"a little larger, and it contracts. And that's really such a great metaphor"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2477.98,"endTime":2481.68,"body":"for the healing process or the trauma integration process."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2482.46,"endTime":2486.24,"body":"So, maybe you can give a very brief"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2486.539,"endTime":2489.66,"body":"case study, just to provide a bit of colour to this. So,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2489.66,"endTime":2492.375,"body":"someone who, at work,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2493.315,"endTime":2496.775,"body":"something is going on, they've identified a possible"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2496.995,"endTime":2500.595,"body":"trauma in their past, they've got some kind of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2500.595,"endTime":2504.355,"body":"support, and then the indicators for them that"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2504.355,"endTime":2507.74,"body":"that support is helping them and then giving them the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2507.74,"endTime":2511.339,"body":"tools that then they can do by themselves. So, can you"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2511.339,"endTime":2515.18,"body":"maybe talk briefly through those stages and just as an"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2515.18,"endTime":2519.02,"body":"example? Yeah. No, that's a great example. So, maybe in a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2519.02,"endTime":2522.865,"body":"situation like that, what comes up for the person"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2522.865,"endTime":2526.005,"body":"is that they figure out that they've essentially got"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2526.385,"endTime":2530.145,"body":"people-pleasing tendency. And so, they're doing as much"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2530.145,"endTime":2533.6,"body":"as they possibly can for this manager, and it's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2533.6,"endTime":2537.119,"body":"not being recognised or not being appreciated, and so the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2537.119,"endTime":2540.88,"body":"employee is getting quite resentful. Because they're doing such a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2540.88,"endTime":2544.4,"body":"good job, the manager is giving them more work, the employee is getting more"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2544.4,"endTime":2548.1,"body":"resentful, and the relationship becomes now a bit like oil and water."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2548.455,"endTime":2552.215,"body":"In the employee recognising how"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2552.215,"endTime":2555.575,"body":"the way that they grew up or some experiences in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2555.575,"endTime":2559.415,"body":"childhood correlate to why they"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2559.415,"endTime":2563.2,"body":"are such a people pleaser in this dynamic, what might"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2563.2,"endTime":2566.8,"body":"happen through the process of trauma integration, all different"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2566.8,"endTime":2570.48,"body":"modalities over the course of time, what might happen is they"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2570.48,"endTime":2574.32,"body":"might realise, my role in this is that I actually"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2574.32,"endTime":2577.985,"body":"have terrible boundaries, and I'm not taking"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2577.985,"endTime":2581.605,"body":"care of myself. I'm making sure that the manager has everything that they need,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2581.905,"endTime":2585.585,"body":"and I'm getting praised for that, but actually, I'm the one that's at"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2585.585,"endTime":2588.945,"body":"cost here. And so, what happens in the trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2588.945,"endTime":2592.52,"body":"integration process is to, first,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2592.52,"endTime":2595.579,"body":"understand that that is happening."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2596.44,"endTime":2600.119,"body":"Second, to really start to talk, maybe with a coach or"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2600.119,"endTime":2603.5,"body":"some other practitioner, about how those boundaries"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2603.88,"endTime":2607.315,"body":"can be fortified. And maybe that looks"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2607.315,"endTime":2610.835,"body":"like role-playing, communication as to what"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2610.835,"endTime":2614.515,"body":"boundaries are going to be set. Maybe that means pushing back on additional"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2614.515,"endTime":2618.215,"body":"work. Maybe the manager doesn't respond favourably to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2618.355,"endTime":2621.71,"body":"that. How am I going to deal with that? So, it's a little bit"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2621.71,"endTime":2625.47,"body":"of boundary setting, it's a little bit"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2625.47,"endTime":2629.17,"body":"of really recognising where they've"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2629.789,"endTime":2633.535,"body":"outsourced their validation to this manager,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2633.535,"endTime":2637.375,"body":"and kind of bringing that back into themselves, so that they're"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2637.375,"endTime":2641.055,"body":"working more traditional hours, hours that are"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2641.055,"endTime":2644.815,"body":"expected of them, not overworking and, yeah, just"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2644.815,"endTime":2648.6,"body":"advocating for themselves more. So, that's just"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2648.6,"endTime":2652.44,"body":"one scenario. You can, again, imagine how many different ways that that could play"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2652.44,"endTime":2655.96,"body":"out. Sure. But I love that example. That gives me a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2655.96,"endTime":2659.48,"body":"really practical way that this can"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2659.48,"endTime":2663.025,"body":"show up and play out. So, that's really"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2663.025,"endTime":2665.984,"body":"helpful. You mentioned that you had put together a"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2666.305,"endTime":2670.145,"body":"toolkit almost, like a list of where you could go. Where can people"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2670.145,"endTime":2673.744,"body":"get hold of that? Yeah. So, I thought, while I was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2673.744,"endTime":2677.285,"body":"writing this book, I had overwritten it by about 12,000 words."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2678.14,"endTime":2681.66,"body":"The editor was quite happy with that. And she"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2681.66,"endTime":2685.42,"body":"suggested that I take that out of the book and actually create that as an"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2685.42,"endTime":2688.94,"body":"online resource. So, that became very similar to a restaurant"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2688.94,"endTime":2691.28,"body":"menu. It's called myhealingmenu.com."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2692.655,"endTime":2696.255,"body":"And essentially, it breaks down all of these trauma"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2696.255,"endTime":2699.234,"body":"integration modalities as appetizers,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2700.415,"endTime":2703.795,"body":"things that you might gently step your toe into"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2704.095,"endTime":2707.609,"body":"on your own, things like podcasts or particular"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2707.75,"endTime":2711.369,"body":"books or binaural beats to listen to, things like that. Journaling."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2711.829,"endTime":2715.589,"body":"Then, shared plates would be the second category."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2715.589,"endTime":2719.424,"body":"And that's the things that you do with a practitioner. Entrees,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2719.724,"endTime":2723.505,"body":"which are much more of the somatic experiences,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2723.645,"endTime":2727.244,"body":"the things that are actually going to be moving your body in quite impactful"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2727.244,"endTime":2730.605,"body":"ways. And then, the desserts are actually"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2730.605,"endTime":2734.259,"body":"psychedelics and things in that realm, where"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2734.259,"endTime":2737.779,"body":"I categorise them as desserts, because those are going to be the richest of"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2737.779,"endTime":2741.559,"body":"experiences and the things that you will probably have the least. So, I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2741.7,"endTime":2745.4,"body":"was really intentional in thinking about that, and I wanted it to be accessible and"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2746.105,"endTime":2749.945,"body":"just an easy way in for anyone to understand"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2749.945,"endTime":2753.625,"body":"how these things were categorised. So, yeah, there are hundreds"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2753.625,"endTime":2757.385,"body":"and hundreds of modalities on that website. It's an educational resource."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2758.9,"endTime":2762.644,"body":"Nothing to purchase there. Just if you're curious, and you want to"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2762.644,"endTime":2765.54,"body":"follow a little trailhead, that's a great place to start."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2766.66,"endTime":2769.88,"body":"And if someone wants to find you, where would you like them to go?"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2770.42,"endTime":2772.76,"body":"Oh, my website is just klcampbell.com."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2774.275,"endTime":2776.915,"body":"I'll put a link to that in the show notes. This is one of those"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2776.915,"endTime":2779.715,"body":"interviews where I think we probably could have gone on for about double the time,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2779.715,"endTime":2783.075,"body":"but it's been a great introduction to this topic. So,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2783.395,"endTime":2787.235,"body":"maybe we'll do another one, dive into a little bit deeper. But in"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2787.235,"endTime":2790.9,"body":"the meantime, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Jeremy. This was"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2790.9,"endTime":2793.16,"body":"wonderful, and I really, really appreciate the dialogue."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2794.34,"endTime":2798.18,"body":"Okay. Well, notwithstanding the topic of that interview with Kelly Campbell,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2798.18,"endTime":2801.955,"body":"I hope that you enjoyed it and found it interesting. I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2801.955,"endTime":2805.595,"body":"had never really thought about the way that cumulative events"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2805.655,"endTime":2809.175,"body":"could ultimately amount to something which you find"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2809.175,"endTime":2812.935,"body":"traumatic and which affects the way that you show up. But it"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2812.935,"endTime":2816.6,"body":"does make a lot of sense. If you have a work colleague,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2816.6,"endTime":2820.36,"body":"for example, who always treats you in a negative way, then it's not"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2820.36,"endTime":2824.04,"body":"surprising that you find yourself reacting to that and changing your"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2824.04,"endTime":2827.455,"body":"behaviours, not necessarily in a positive way. I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2827.455,"endTime":2831.135,"body":"also really liked the idea that something you can do here is"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2831.135,"endTime":2834.735,"body":"to integrate the experience within you,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2834.735,"endTime":2838.275,"body":"rather than, quotes, 'cure yourself of it'. It's"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2838.895,"endTime":2842.415,"body":"like a coming to terms with it and acceptance of it,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2842.415,"endTime":2846.06,"body":"and crucially, not allowing it to dictate the way"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2846.06,"endTime":2849.82,"body":"that you present yourself and show up. Show notes"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2849.82,"endTime":2853.58,"body":"for this episode are at changeworklife.com/201,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2853.58,"endTime":2857.365,"body":"that's changeworklife.com/201. And I"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2857.365,"endTime":2860.245,"body":"haven't asked this for a while, but it would be great if you would leave"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2860.245,"endTime":2864.085,"body":"a review for the podcast. Apple podcasts is still really the"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2864.085,"endTime":2867.925,"body":"place to leave a review, so if you use an Apple device"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2867.925,"endTime":2871.599,"body":"to listen to your podcasts, and you can leave a review there, then"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2871.599,"endTime":2875.119,"body":"that would be amazing. But if not, wherever you get your podcasts,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2875.119,"endTime":2878.88,"body":"if you can rate me on Spotify, or if there's any"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2878.88,"endTime":2882.72,"body":"rating function in the app that you use, any review would be"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2882.72,"endTime":2886.555,"body":"really, really helpful. And if it's not a five-star review, tell"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2886.555,"endTime":2890.235,"body":"me why not. Drop me a line. Go to changeworklife.com/contact,"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2890.235,"endTime":2893.835,"body":"and tell me what can I do better. There's another great episode"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2893.835,"endTime":2897.515,"body":"coming in two weeks' time, so make sure that you've subscribed to the show"},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2897.515,"endTime":2900.64,"body":"if you haven't already, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers."},{"speaker":"Lead","startTime":2901.34,"endTime":2901.84,"body":"Bye."}]}