Episode 223 - Brian Boecker, "False Self vs. True Self"

“The call of spirituality is to be fully human and fully alive.” - Brian Boecker

Ruth Haley Barton once said, “...there is a truer self waiting to be recognized and breathed into life by the Spirit of God.” The war between the false self and the true self is real and for some of us, is fought throughout our lives. Franciscan priest Richard Rohr feels that there is no more challenging spiritual issue than the "problem of the self."

On today’s podcast, Michael welcomes back Restoring the Soul colleague Brian Boecker to discuss the false self versus the true self and consider questions like, ”What are the repetitive patterns that keep me deadened to my own desire and how do I awaken those things?” We also hope you come to realize that the call of spirituality is to be fully human and fully alive.

Brian Boecker is an Intensive Clinical Soul Care Specialist at Restoring the Soul. With over ten years of working with individuals and couples, he specializes in counseling pastors, missionaries, and other Christian leaders. For 27 years he served with CRU (Campus Crusade for Christ) in a variety of leadership capacities primarily throughout Southeast Asia. He has served with multiple ministries and currently trains graduate students at Denver Seminary. He has a deep love of entering the stories of people in ways that move them toward restoration, healing, and wholeness.

HELPFUL RESOURCES:
Episode 215 - Brian Boecker, "The Awakening: A Move Toward Wholeness"

Discover how the barrier built by porn addiction can become a bridge to abundant life.

What if lust for porn is really a search for true passion?

In a world where there are 68 million searches for pornography every day and where over 70 percent of Christian men report viewing porn in the last year, it's no surprise that more and more men struggle with an addiction to this false fantasy. Common wisdom says if they just had more willpower or more faith, their fight would be over.

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Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Unknown: 0:12

Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. Ruth Haley Barton once said, There is a truer self waiting to be recognized and breathed into life by the Spirit of God. The war between the false self and the true self is real, and for some of us is fought over a lifetime. Franciscan priest Richard Rohr feels that there is no more challenging spiritual issue than the problem of the self. Today in the podcast, Michael welcomes back one of his colleagues from restoring the soul, Brian Becker, where they'll discuss the false self versus the true self, and consider questions like what are the repetitive patterns that keep me deaden to my own desire? And how do I awaken those things. We also hope you come to realize that the call of spirituality is to be fully human, and fully alive. You may recall Brian from an earlier restoring the soul podcast, where he and Michael discussed the awakening and Brian's life that completely transformed his marriage and his relationship with the Father. We'll put a link to his episode in the show notes. So without any further delay, here's your host, Michael, John Cusack. Brian Becker, we are in the restoring the soul studio. Welcome back. It's really happy. We're talking again today. Yeah, thanks. It's great to be back. We, we had you on the program when you joined restoring the soul. We've been trying to do this for a long time. And as we've been planning it, we've just been talking about having a conversation. And the phrase, What is God doing in your life is a common phrase around here, what's got up to in your life, and we were talking a little bit about that, specifically, as it relates to the story work that you're doing. And you alluded to this, at the beginning of the previous podcasts that you've done with us. The talk a little bit about story, work, narrative work, what that is, what it's meant to you, and specifically how through this, you've been doing personal work, which is such a big part of the counseling work you do around the true self in the false self? Sure. Yeah, I would say you know, maybe I'd start with this, quote, author. I think it's James Hollis. But he said this about Carl Jung, he says young one, put it humorously, we're all walking around with shoes too small for us. Living with a constricted view of our journey, and identifying with old defensive strategies, we unwittingly become the enemies of our own growth, our own largeness of soul through our repetitive history bound choices. And I love that. Yeah, and I think it really captures a lot of my own experience, just feeling like I've, I've kind of settled for something smaller, cramming the largeness of my soul kind of into shoes too small. But that gives me a sense of control. They give me a sense of certainty, but they also have a certain amount of deadness to them. And so there's a way that I think, in my journey, just been through experiences that have opened me up to looking at what are those things that have constricted me? What? What are the repetitive patterns, that kind of keep me deadened to my own desire? And how do I awaken to those things, and I think that's something that God just continues to kind of, like crack the smelling salts kind of wave in front of my nose. And so like, wake up, wake up to the reality of who you really are and who I'm making you to be. And so I think, that metaphor of just constricted small shoes, but I think also this idea of awakening up had a friend, good friend, Bruce Hedstrom, in Dallas used to give a talk called waking up is hard to do. And I just think that feels like a good metaphor. To me of, of a journey is like I've been asleep and part of that sleepiness is to avoid pain and suffering that I didn't want to, but how do I awaken to that to actually become fully present with a life and all the goodness God has for me in that so let's close in prayer. Let's just Let's just end the podcast. There. That was that was magnificent. And I can't help but comment on the waking up is hard to do. For those of you that don't remember Paul Anka, and the 1950s doo wop song Breaking up is hard to do. I just want See, coma coma down, baby do down, down? Down like only you can. Yeah. There's so much to what you said. The first part, the whole part about awakening. You talked about deadness and a lack of aliveness. But what has it meant for you to wake up? Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me, one of the things that has been more of a recent thing is just seeing how much the idea of surviving life rather than really entering into it or enjoying it has become more clear to me. And I think that feeling of survival is, you know, I told somebody the other day, like, I feel like I can go through life holding my breath a lot, hoping I just get through it. Instead of really just been ready. I think the invitation God has had is like, be present with me. Breathe deeply and just be present and step into life. Do you I mean, and don't don't fear, that sense of like, something bad's gonna happen. And so it seems like either, for me, it's not waiting for something bad to happen, but waiting for something good to happen. Like, just around the corner, something's gonna happen. I'm not making it happen. But it's like this magical belief that something's going to come to me that will make me fit into the right shoes. Right? Because I too, identify with the shoes are too small. And I meant for something bigger. But I am not worthy of or I don't have what it takes to actually bring that about. Yeah. So I wonder if that's like a common either or paradigm of either. I'm waiting for something to happen, you know, my chips gonna come in, we're gonna win the lottery, or something bad's gonna happen. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of just like, how do I just take life on its terms and what God has for me today and be awake to that? Do you mean and be attentive to that? And I just think there's a sense of, you know, identified as an anagram nine for a long time. And I think the phrase that they often talk that nines need to know is that your presence matters. Do you mean and I think there's this deep part of me that longs to be seen, but as terrified of it. And there's something about that phrase, does my presence even matter? Here I kind of have this deep desire that it does. But I'm also terrified that it doesn't and I don't want to find out, you know, that somebody's gonna be call me a posture of fraud. I was watching a. It was David Letterman's new show, like Next up I think is called or saw my next guest needs no introduction. anymore. Yeah. Is with Billy Eilish. And he was just, she was talking about this fear of being an imposter, you know, this imposter syndrome that came up and he just made this comment. Like, he goes, I had that for years, like I'm, I'm, I'm winning, I'm upfront, but I kept waiting for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and say, You don't belong here. something akin to that, and I just go that feels that way. Like there's this nervousness like that I'm going to be caught and exposed and found out to be something less than what I am. And so I think for me, the idea of showing up and risking and offering something of strength in wisdom is has been a growing process. I think last time we were on there as you know, it's kind of further up further and like that sense of pressing up in in has been kind of the repeated theme like stepping out of the smallness cutting the laces and stepping out into that that my friend was a can of Coke Zero opening up so we're gonna continue now. So Brian, in any gram nine gives us some categories because you talked about the numbness and the believing that you're going to be found out and the poser posturing kind of syndrome, where in your story does that come from? Are you able to see kind of the formative places where that smallness came to be? Yeah, I think for me, I see you know, your stories, you know, my, my dad passed away in December and you know, part of one of the great gifts my dad gave me as in latter years was telling me about the fear he has because my perception as a kid was he always got a right he always knew what was right to do. And there was a sense that compared to him, I was a mess up. I couldn't get it right. couldn't do the things right it like I can remember stories of wanting to work on projects, and it just never seemed like I could do it with the perfection and the skill that he could. So there was always a sense to me, I think that started this sense of less than kind of feeling for me and I think, you know, coming along, I began to go, I don't know that I want to risk trying really hard. What came easy was my sense of humor. I was voted class clown in my house to a 1982 Fairview high school class. I didn't even know that till I found a brochure. But you were to Yeah, what what year 8181 That, that gives you historical perspective, my dear listeners, to class clients whooping it up, you're the one about got more dad jokes, and I care to share. But I think what happened was I began to say, if I can make people laugh, if I can entertain them, maybe they'll keep me around. And so what began to feel, you know, that's really all I have to offer is I can please you, I can entertain you. But But I don't know that I can offer anything else in that. I remember doing a leadership intensive through Dallas seminars called the lead experience. And part of that it you had to write out your life map and in through that, look at the themes of that life map. And when I wrote out my life story, I remember the theme that just stood out like it just popped out of a phrase was, please everyone trust no one. Wow. And it was just like, yeah, that says, a lot right there. Like, I don't know that I can really trust you with the fullness of what I think I trust you with showing up, I can please you, I can entertain you. I can try and accommodate you. I don't know if I can really risk being fully present with you and offer something encountered to you. So let me ask How long had you been a follower of Jesus at that point? When you did that program at Dallas, and those out? Yeah, I was actually in us overseas and Singapore. And they, they came to us, Dave Khan and Bruce Hedstrom. And Bill Lawrence for the people that kind of led that week long intensive. And so that would have been 2003. So I would have been 40. I would have been my 40th year so and I had been in ministry, since I was probably 2324. So, okay, so close to 20 years into ministry longer than that, knowing the Lord, and you're walking around with I must please everyone and trust no one. And on the surface, the especially the police part might look very, very Christian. Yeah, the trust, no one might be a little more suspicious. But those beliefs, some people would speak of those in terms of vows, or even agreements, those would profoundly affect your faith. And to trust no one and to think that you can just switch gears and trust God deeply. That's not possible. Well, that's where I would say, you know, the false self that and that's kind of what I view this kind of shoes too small as we cram ourself in that is, it has these elements of it affects the way I perceive the way I protect the way I present, myself. And the perception is how do I perceive myself? How do I perceive others? But also, how do I perceive God? And what do I view of him? And I think, for a lot of years, I've friend and he said this phrase, you know, I know God loves me, because he kind of has to do I mean, it's his job, right? But if he was coming to get us and I was late, he wouldn't wait around for me. And I resonated with that. Like I think there was kind of like, yeah, you're kind of in because you're part of humanity, and that was offered to humanity. There wasn't a sense of great fondness for me. And I think that's been part of that journey is how do I realize like, God isn't just generally liked me because I'm a human being, but he very specifically likes me, likes who I am and likes what's really unique about me. And I think that's been this ongoing releasing of that in the freedom of that that comes with that. So I want to play devil's advocate here for a moment because I think most of our listeners are tracking with this. But in Philippians, two, verse three and four, it says, Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but rather in humility, value others above yourself not looking for your own interests, but to the interest of others. And I've heard this from time to time where people say you know, you're talking about our shoes are too small. And we need to wear bigger shoes. And we need to step out, you know, and really become more alive and full. And isn't that just pride? And shouldn't we have small shoes and you know, the John the Baptist saying to Jesus, He must increase, I must decrease, which by the way is about a public platform. It's not about an existential reality that John needed to somehow be less John, but just address this issue of how people might think that it's very Christian, and godly to have really small shoes and to not make much of a splash in the world. Yeah, I think I go back to you know, CS Lewis, I think it's in his weight of glory. But he talks about, if we truly saw each other in the fullness of our glory that he's designed us for, we'd be inclined to worship each other. There's a large enough to us that God intends that I think brings great glory to Him. And there's a mindfulness of it. I think the the idea when I think of false self, I think it goes two directions. One is this kind of superhuman version of a false self, which is like I need to be bigger, better, stronger, more capable, more serving bigger, you know, platform, I think, you know, Narcissus kind of falls into that there's a large sadness of it. But that's not who they were meant to be. There's also this subhuman. And maybe that's the part that I drifted more towards, which is, like I'm really confined or not, but I think the call of spirituality is to be fully human fully alive. And I think that largeness comes in when it comes, I think there's a peacefulness about it. There's a restiveness that it's not about self promotion, but it's just about enjoying the delight of God in that place. So it doesn't, to me when I've had those glimpses of that. It doesn't, it feels like just a delight and arrest. There's nothing about self promotion to it. It's more about self acceptance than self promotion. And not saying, I suck, and I'm accepting that or, I don't have gifts or talents, or I'm not smart. And I'm accepting that, because it's not anti becoming, but it's like, I'm okay, just the way I am and who I am, as opposed to in my story. When I go back and finish my PhD, then I'm okay. Because then that PhD makes me bigger, better smarter, than I'm one of the club, then I'll have the big, you know, speaking contracts, then I'll really have something to say. Yeah, I think it was Brene Brown, who said that shame causes us to either make our show bigger or to make ourselves smaller. And so the self acceptance is not being ruled by shame, but being embraced by love and the compassion and the love of God, but also a self compassion. Yeah. And that that makes a lot of sense. And in that's where I would say, maybe this largeness of soul is different than this inflated ego, kind of like a mascot head, it's hollow on the inside do domain versus this largeness of soul is, is something of substance. In fact, when I went through that leadership development, that was one of the words is that, you know, my true self is about becoming solid about becoming a man of substance. Like there's something up there, do you I mean, I remember some of the feedback that I've gotten from other people as around that go, we really liked Brian, but we have no idea what he stands for. Do mean, and that was hard to hear, because it's like, that's not who I want to be. I think there's something more there. But I don't know how to step towards that. I don't know how to offer that without exposing myself and being vulnerable. And I think that's where Brene Browns words of, you know, the path of vulnerability leads you to be able to start experiencing the empathy or the love of God. And I think when you take start taking that route, you began to experience both his delight and love, not just through that spiritual relationship, but people also that you can begin to actually receive from them the goodness that they're trying to offer you in that. So you're pretty well acquainted with the small shoes and how you live that way. But what were some of the factors that led to you beginning to wake up there was this event, these men that spoke into your life and the content and the safety and the structure of the LEAD program? But after that, what were other factors that made you begin to go oh, this is this is a false self. Yeah, I think. I think you know, definitely. I would look at that and go, the thing I was most aware of was, you know, definitely in my relationship with my wife, like, there was just a sense of like, I'm here. But not here. I think we talked about that. Her last show, like, I'm not really showing up. And I think that just the call to have to step up in into my marriage was a significant part of that. And that continues to be true. I think the same with ministry was like, I was president, I was doing a lot of work, I was really busy, but I wasn't necessarily stepping up and taking risks in the way I wanted to. And, and for me, the risk wasn't about going to harder places or, you know, doing greater bigger things. To me, I think when I stepped into my counseling degree to pursue that, like that felt like a huge risk. Like, I just remember when you're sitting down in practicum, as a 42 year old, and they're gone, okay, you're gonna meet with somebody tomorrow, and you're like, like, I've been here a semester, what makes you think I have anything to offer these people, but you then begin to realize, like, the greatest gift in the room is me? Yeah. And do you actually believe that? Or do you think it's something you learned? Is it something you need to strive for him? And remember, so you can say it? Or is it just the fact that you're present? And you can offer that? And so this phrase that's been tumbling around my head, I just have been captured again, by the Jesus feeding into the 5000. You know, he asked the disciples, like, how are you going to feed these people? And he does that, I think, to reveal kind of the way they think about it, you know, one says, Why don't you send them away and make them get their own food? You know, one says, Well, if we had to work, we'd have to work two years to feed them. You know, on one goes, here's this little lad, you know, who brought his lunch? But what's that amongst so many, and you just see these different ways of approaching life in this problem. But I've just found it fascinating that God fed 5000, through a little boy with a lunch. Do you mean, and it was, I don't know, if he, he came forward. We don't know that. But I just imagined this little boy, because kids are like that, right? I've got five loaves and two fishes. And they're like, What is that like, and you just think about him showing up with his poverty. And then God taking that and multiplying that. And that's been a great phrase for me as I just need to show up in my poverty, knowing that God's gonna make that into wealth. And again, I don't know that poverty is the best word. But I have, that's what I feel a lot of times as I'm showing up kind of naked, in with nothing, kind of like with a squirt gun, facing a forest fire. Do you know what I mean? But But it's like, in that God shows up. And I think that's been one of the greatest joys of counseling has been, that happens all the time. Yeah, and there's nothing like sitting down with another human being. I remember that same experience in grad school, when they're, they're oftentimes in pain in a crisis, and they're expecting you to be helpful. And I think every counselor has been in lesser, complete poser, and a place where going, I have no idea what to do, and trusting that there may be a solution or something to say, but trusting that it's actually the human presence. And that now we know that even neuro biologically like sitting with you and me being grounded and breathing and aware of my own stress reaction. So if I'm feeling anxious, right now talking to you in this podcast, that after you talk, then I better have something clever to say. And then after I say something clever, hopefully, you'll say something that will be compelling, but really set me up to then say something even more clever. And I'm not focused on and present to you. I'm completely focused on myself because of my own anxiety. And it takes a long time to be able to get past that. And you know, somebody might say, well, that's just self centeredness. Whereas a sinful center people know I'm anxious, and I'm embodied in a way where it's really scary to be just with somebody. Yeah. As opposed to let me draw on all my capital. And I sure relate to the humor stuff, too, about whether it's with you or somebody else. It's just so easy to make jokes, to banter, which is fun, and in and of itself, not wrong. Thank heavens, yeah. But to do that, and to never pause and say, How are you doing? Or can I tell you how I'm doing? Can you pray for me? That kind of thing? Well, that's where I would say, you know, one of the shifts for me was, I was using humor, mostly to self protect and self provide. And I think one of the things God changed and that is he didn't take away that humor. But he said I want to use it for a different purpose. And I think he often uses my humor to set the table for deeper conversation. means to bring safety and comfort, as well as just again, in an invitation. There's something more here and it's okay that we go there. Yeah. Let's wrap up in a minute. I think I want to end with this question. And we will come back and talk more about this for somebody who's listening. And maybe they've just started counseling, or maybe they're reading a book, where some of these categories about shame and the false self and the true self are there. What are some indicators to you that the false self is an operation? And what are some signs maybe just from your own story, again, that the true self is starting to be released? Because the true self is not something we have to go look for? Or take a class on how to become it? It's already there. It's within us. It's an imperishable seed. It's part of our design. Yeah. Well, I've often said the false self is about usually about striving. That would be one word, and where you sense that kind of hamster on a spinning wheel, kind of trying to attain something in and of yourself, I'm gonna make this work. And, and I think your words that are great words, like the true self part feels to me more like it's about unshackling, something to let it be released. Do you mean in that, and I think that's where you start sensing the shift from striving into resting into and releasing something good. So it's not the absence of activity, but it's the absence of reactive kind of activity. I would say the other piece is for me, and this might be unique to my own story, but the idea of deadness that there was a real sense that there wasn't room in my shoes for a desire to really know what I want, there was room for me to attend to other people's desires and what they want, but there wasn't room for me to be really awake to what I want. And so that oftentimes is can I slow down to pay attention? What do I really one, I just think it's a profound question that Jesus says the man at the, at the pool, like, what do you want? And it's like, he even goes into well, let me tell you, how my striving hasn't worked. And why this than that, you know, mean? And he's like, no, what do you want? And so I think that idea of what am I doing with desire? And where's desire at play in my demanding it? I must have this to mean, am I am I deadening it? Am I killing it? Or am I living well with it in my naming it bringing it to the Lord and often do mean in feeling both the ache of desire, because it's not going to be fully met in this life? But am I also willing to experience the tastes that he wants to give me of that desire? And for him to meet me in the midst of that? I think the idea of desire, I mean, that's probably one of the, you know, jokes with my wife. And if she would ask me, What do you want? And I'm like, I know what I don't want. I don't know. You know, it's like, I've figured that part out. But I don't you know, it's hard for me to even say where to go for dinner. Do you mean, and what do I really desire in that, and so I think there's an awakening to desire that's going on, I think there's a dealing with the restlessness. And I think that's part of that striving, that I can attend to that and begin to settle in rest into that. I appreciate you talking about desire, as part of the true self. I think, for me, especially with an addictive background, not just with substances and sex and things like that, but desire has been oriented toward things that would reinforce my false self doubt. So my desire was at one point to go to medical school, so I could be doctor so I could be powerful. So I could be away from home all the time. I know, that's a pretty dark, strategic thought, like, Oh, I'll do this career. So I never have to, like, be home and I can I can work 18 hours a day, desire to have a certain kind of watch, I've talked about watch lust and watch covetousness since I'm a watch collector, or if I had this car, or you know, when I was single if I had this girlfriend or at times, you know when things are hard in my marriage, or if I had a different wife and desire, directed toward bolstering the false self versus a deeper desire of what was my heart made for. And there's a lightness and there's a freedom with that. Whereas with the other, if that doesn't happen, if I don't get the Watch the car or the girl, then I'm going to be depressed or I'm going to be really anxious until it does happen. So everything we're talking about, as you're talking, I'm just aware of really feeling within myself a longing for that lightness and the freedom Have desiring in a way that's related to the true self? Yeah. And maybe I would say this way, because in those desires even as you mentioned, it's like I think there's ways desires well up, and we attach them to things like a watch or like a profession or career. And then we think, Well, what we want is that career we want that watch, but it's about deeper desire, right? Like, that's where I go. I think you're wanting to be a doctor because you want to heal people. Right? And and that's what I've done since then. But despite that, for different reasons, and I've found the freedom in it. Yeah. So thank you for pointing that out. You Aquinas, this idea that beneath our sinful behaviors, or beneath the misdirected desires, there's a legitimate God given appetite? Yeah. And I think we could say that with with anything, including with sex, you know, the desires that we want connection we want to feel and being wanted and yeah, yeah, I think Brene browns, quote, that undid me was, you know, greatest threat to belongingness fitting in, and I go, that's totally true. But if, if that's true, I don't have any idea what belonging is because my whole life it's been about fitting in. So let's unpack that. And then we'll wrap up the greatest threat threat to belonging is fitting in. Yeah. See more about that? Well, it's I think that's where you're cramming annually. You know, like, I'm here to please you, I'm here to fit in. I'm here to make you happy with me. So you keep me around, versus I'm here to belong. And that means I bring the fullness of myself to that. And I think that's one of the definitions God put on my heart was intimacy is always a place where all of you welcomes all of me. I'd love that. Yeah, you've shared that with me before. And I've quoted you multiple times and only giving you credit once. So thank you for that. So here's the big question. Where do you want to go for dinner? I think chili Reno's will always be on top of my list. I think that's a deep beautiful God given desire. That's the food but what restaurant? Oh, that's a good question. I think I like my last ones at the Hacienda that I had Julianos, Arizona. And there you have it, my hair Manas and hermanos chili rellenos as we What's that crispy chili Rando first speech killer rellenos as we as we wrap up this episode of restoring the soul. Brian, thanks for being on the program and look forward to our next conversation. Yeah, likewise, bless you. So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut you're in our intensive counseling programs in Colorado, allow you to experience deep change and half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more, visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com