Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. On this edition of restoring the soul. And in honor of Sunday's Juneteenth holiday. We'd like to present one of Michael's most compelling conversations with Reverend Dr. Dennis Edwards, where they discuss race and Christianity in modern America. As it relates to some current events. Michael was deeply impacted by Dr. Edwards article in Christianity today, from May of 2020, titled The revolution will not be videoed. The link to this article can be found in our show notes. And this particular conversation took place in June of 2020. Dr. Edwards is currently and an associate professor of New Testament at North Park Theological Seminary in Chicago, and author of might from the margins, the Gospels power to turn the tables on injustice. In addition to his academic work in Biblical Studies, he has served as pastor in Brooklyn, Washington, DC, and Minneapolis. So let's join in on their conversation. And here's your host, Michael John Cusack. Do you feel at all as if sometimes white people in reaching out to you are kind of asking you to help them be responsible for the problem that that oppresses you and other African Americans? Oh, yes. Without question. I think that that's, I'm feeling it on two levels. One is that I think people I've known for a long time have actually probably been less of an issue because they, they've known me, so they know the issue. So their check ins with me or more about how I'm feeling emotionally and such, but But folks who are newer, maybe only know me through social media tend to, I guess, want me to help them understand something that might take years to unpack. And also maybe to alleviate certain guilt, you know, there's, there's times when I'm approached, and people will start off with a litany of things that they've done, you know, I've done this, and my family has done so we've given money to this. And, and it's almost as if they're looking for my blessing in some way to say, well, you're good. And, but I'm in no position to do that, either. So it does is so puts me in a weird position to know how to respond or what they're looking for. And if I'm the person that they really need to be talking to. So yeah, you hit it, there's some some of those things well, although more recently, I'm grateful that you did decide to do this interview. And I have to confess, you know, I'll start with just sharing how I'm doing. I'm one course away from a minor in Black Studies from when I was an undergrad. I have a cousin who's married to a black man, my own sister has basically step children, they're African American, and lots of other, you know, I have black friends, and I'm putting the air the air quotes in there. And what has been really different is the situation with Mr. Floyd has unfolded with his murder, is that I've come to a place of, I can have all of those feathers in my woke cap. But I've not actually confronted within myself, the issues that are still there, around privilege and really sometimes subtle issues of prejudice and maybe even racism. And I think the thing I've, I've, I want to refer to your crochet Today article, because that that's what really sparked my desire for this conversation. I read that, and I was moved to tears. And as I researched you for this podcast, I realized, Oh, I know who you are. I know of you through your friend Greg Boyd. And he's, he's one of my theological heroes. That's kind of the the fly in the ointment. And you said some things in that conversation that were really, really stimulating, thought provoking, and just so good. And when one brief statement was, when we hear the other, our worldview changes. I am curious in terms of just how you're doing and how this is all impacting you emotionally in light of what you said, but also, what does it mean to hear the other? That's different? Right, and that, wow, that happens at a lot of level was right. I mean, I think for me, as a as a male, I wound up, you know, in early on in Evan Jellicle circles being taught that women could not, you know, Minister publicly, right. So I thought of that in terms of, you know, the way Bible verses were us. So I tried to have this objectivity that people would, you know, was saying, but that's just the way it is. But actually, I needed to hear from women, I needed to hear from women, how they heard those Bible verses and how they were treated in the church as a consequence of, of, of the submission language or the prohibition language, right. So in other words, my exegesis had to also be coupled with with with real life implications. And then to find out that sometimes the exegesis wasn't so objective it was it was born out of a place of privilege and power. So so what I'm getting at is that my views on women in ministry have been shaped by exegesis, but also by women. So I think the same thing happens with issues of race is that we, we can sometimes take positions that we think are right, because we've read something, or we were told something, or we have some anecdotal evidence, but we're not really paying attention to the realities. So yeah, when we start to truly listen to others, I think we can't help but to be changed and listening. Because I mean, that in a broad, deep sense of the word that rather, rather than just letting the sound come in, I mean, really taking in what people are saying. And also, the numbers of people do matter. In other words, it's maybe not an outline voice to say there's injustice when you see hundreds of people saying, Yes, this is my story, too. This is my sore tooth, it starts to it should start to really make an impact on anybody that's paying attention. And so this whole idea of the perspective that we have you address that in your article in Christianity today, and is okay with you if I just read a short paragraph, but you wrote, referring to the videos of Mr. Floyd's murder, you said the videos have helped some white people to see a bit of what many black and brown people know, white America has long had its knee on our necks. I'm sure that some who just read that sentence are saying not all of white America. But that's the problem. It's hard for people of color to feel that white America is with us, and not against us. White America has not demonstrated the collective resolve to repent, rebuke, and reorient itself against racial injustice, that includes Christians, white Christians can opt out of outrage over racial injustice, the status quo works for them. Strong and very, very courageous words. And, indeed, that's one of the reasons why you have felt like you pay a price when you speak out like this as a Christian. What struck me as I, as I read that, and a couple of metaphors you use the fall, it was this idea of that I can opt out. And for whatever reason, there seems to be just a confluence of things happening in me personally, socially, culturally, it may even involve the COVID that I don't feel like I can opt out, at least in the way that I have in the past. And I don't want to put myself above anyone else. Yeah. But can you unpack those words? You know, another metaphor you used was that these issues can be an elective for white people, as opposed as opposed to a required course. Right? Just just talk more about that. And specifically, the, the perspective from a white Christian that wants to minimize this and not see it as something that's so much a broader issue. Sure. Well, there's there's several levels here once again, and I'll try to be succinct here. So let's, let's take well, I'll give an example. And maybe gotta get at the answer. I have white Christian friends who, who are trying to deal with this pandemic, right and are sending information to their congregations or they're trying to keep keep the community going right, even though you have to be separated or geographically distant, and they send out comments if for some reason I'm on the mailing list of one of these passwords. Even I don't go to his church and but he's known me for years. And we've had all this unrest going on in the country and he hasn't, as never mentioned it, and to his congregation. It's just not an issue for him. Now, I happen to know him personally. I've known him for a lot of years. That it I can't speak for him, but the silence says it's not important enough for me to address Tim I people, you know, even though I have their ear, and and have regular communication with them, and he's not the only example. I mean, there's, there's many pastors I know and I, and I've been in and around Christians and in their churches, that if it sounds kinda like politics to them or something that's partisan, or it's gonna get at an election issue, they don't want to touch it, unless it falls in something they think would be really comfortable for the congregation here. So that's the opting out part. I mean, it's sort of, there's no personal skin in the game, as they say, there's there's nothing to there's nothing to, to lose by being silent. Right? What they feel like they might lose if they speak, right? They might, I mean, even Greg Boyd, our friend that you just mentioned, he tweeted something recently that said, he wanted to command any password at this week, because he said, they might not have a job come Tuesday, you know, it's like, there's those folks who, who, you know, really, it would become an issue for them. But the second part I want to get at is when I, when some people get offended when you if you use the general terminology of white Christianity, I do that I did that on purpose, because part of the deal is that there's a Christian, that there's a collectivism about Christianity, it's supposed to be a communal faith, but we tend to treat it individualistically in America. So you're going to have those individual Christians who say, but I never did this, or my family never did that. But the problem is, you're part of a bigger thing, you're part of a bigger collective, your ability to distance yourself from what you see as injustice still negates the reality that you're part of a bigger structure, a bigger system that still works for you. In other words, you could be a pastor who, who has said nothing about race or cares nothing about these issues, and you could get called to a congregation to serve that congregation. And they will be happy for you to never mention these things. So now you are part of a system that never has to address injustice, even though you might say I personally don't feel any animosity toward toward people of color, or toward black people or whatever. In other words, that individualism works against what Christianity is supposed to be, which is a communal faith. So that touches on what I was getting at. And I use the word collective in that quote that you gave, because I think there should be a collective outrage from, from Christina from white Christians. Thank you for that. In John, chapter eight, it talks about how the truth will set us free. And Dr. King obviously referred to that again, and again and again. And it seems like evangelicals in the last 50 years, maybe longer, I'm only 55. So I don't know, have referred to truth as the scripture. And it seems to me that truth in Scripture is larger than that, that it's the human experience, and how real and true that is. And then the truth of how God reveals Himself. Can you talk for a moment about your truth as a black man in America, because I feel like one of the things that we are insulated from, when we can opt out is to hear the stories of what it's like for, for black men and women who are not shot and killed or falsely incarcerated, but who just go through day after day after day, with a sense of hyper vigilance or with a sense of being wounded in all kinds of different ways. Would you be willing to talk about that? A bit? Yeah, I can a bit. I mean, I, my, I think my hesitancy even in some of my public writings and books and articles, I don't often chronicle too many personal stories, because it they start to, it almost becomes like this contest of who had it worse. And, you know, and, and on some level, there's a certain morbid curiosity in stories of, of either violence or outrage or those kinds of things that that I think, I don't know, sometimes people miss it, because sometimes it's, it's something that's built up. Now, I'll give you one example. Yes, but I but I don't. But that's the problem. I don't want that to be like somebody listening to this as well. I know somebody who had a much worse and so but I'm giving an example, because of the subtle nature of things. So when I was a seminary student, and I came to seminary with an engineering degree, and I didn't know how I would do on seminary, I was a little nervous about the work being different. And then science and math and, but I was doing okay, and but I had a professor and church history class who he just he, he treated me like, I was stupid. And I've got reasons for saying that. And at one particular point, when I didn't get an exam back and everybody else had their exam, I couldn't find it and And, and he, when I asked him about it, he says, Well, I can't find it, I put it in your mailbox. And he was very dismissive of me, in fact, said it like that very dramatically. Like get out of my face. I happen to work security. So I had keys and when I checked the behind the mailboxes, he had put it in the mailbox next to mine. And, and I had a really high grade. And when I came back and the classroom, he seemed shocked to see that I had the second highest grade in the class, and I think I got the highest grade on the final. He genuinely did not think I had the mental ability to do it. And some of the way he talked to me. He, I mean, one instance he talked to me like I like some of your folks might be old enough to remember old television shows like The Amos and Andy and Deputy fetcher character, he talked to me with that kind of backwards, you know, draw kind of slow talking stereotypical black speech that white people put on us from, you know, from early 20th century, and in the classroom did that to me. I mean, it's pretty demoralizing, and to have it done in front of you in front of the whole classroom when I'm getting the highest grades in the class. So I have stories like that of minimization of people kind of making assumptions. Not to mention the fear Yes, of, you know, anytime you hear the sirens, you're always looking behind you now that I'm older, I sometimes think I'm not going to be treated the same way. I have adult sons and I fear for them. Because they're right, in the demographic that that, that the police seem to be looking at. So yeah, I mean, I don't want to trade a bunch of horror stories, but it's in that vein of minimization and, and stereotyping that I have existed in that world. What would you say to the Christians who and I see a whole segment of them on social media, which I've actually tried to stay away from over the last week, who, who basically say, you know, the color of our skin doesn't matter, because we're just all one and Jesus, I've heard that a lot. Yeah. And you know, behind that seems to be a dismissive attitude towards what's happening. Yeah. Well, you hit it with that word, dismissive. I think there's a couple of things going on. I mean, from a theological standpoint, the color seems to matter to God. I mean, he, I mean, God made us in His image. And however you view the world in a scientific way, or the literacy of creation, or have you read the Bible story, I'm not sure but at least by the climax, the climax, and in Revelation, we definitely see people from all over the world speaking different languages coming from different nationalities all around the throne, right? And it's a celebratory image of God's diversity. You see that at Pentecost? Certainly. So there's, there's a theme in scripture that God not only has is behind ethnic diversity, he celebrates it. And I think when people say that they're colorblind, or it doesn't matter, what their what it seems to be saying is that I see your color as a deficiency, but I'll do my best to not acknowledge that and just say, We're all the same. It also minimizes the cultural and ethnic uniqueness of people, which is part of our identity. So I, the only people I hear, say that, for the most part are white people. And I admit that there's white people who, for whom their ethnic identity might be more confusing, because they don't know, what does it mean to be white, they only know it in contrast to ethnic minorities. So it's a it's a challenge, perhaps. So I think it minimizes our uniqueness. And I think it also minimizes this special work that God has done in creation. So you made this kind of illusion in your article about, you know, I can already hear people responding this way. But as you talk about how there's a there's an assumption that there's a deficiency with the skin color or ethnic racial background, you know, I can hear people right away going, but I don't, but I don't think that blacks or any other are deficient. What would you say to people to help them get out of that kind of self fulfilling loop? Well, honestly, I don't know. Right off the bat. I mean, there's, there's a couple of things that we we often encourage people to read, you know, to, to look at, what experts have done, and to perhaps acquaint themselves with, with what the sociologists and other experts have seen about humanity. So that's on one level, it's an education level. But I think on the other level, maybe there is something that is scary spiritually missing, when you have to make the world be mono something or other for you to to accept it. I think there may be a couple of things going on. So I'm hesitating in coming up with the best answer because I honestly think people mean, well, you know, they want to, they want to sort of equalize everything. But but it's, but that's not really the issue. You know, my friend Drew Hart, he had that book, the trouble I've seen on race in America. And he talks about meeting with a pastor who, a white pastor who said to him, you know, we're in he was going to McDonald's and English showing him the cup. And he said, you know, if I turn the cup around, I can see your side. And then you can see my side, as if we were just two equals coming to the table and just have to share from our two experiences. And what Drew was pointing out is that, well, no, I've already as a black person, America had to know your world. This is what I got schooled. And this is what life in America means. But you've never really had to know my world. So it's not like we've got two people just sharing information about themselves. There's there's been a dominant culture that we've all had to learn and swim in, even when some of its been mythical. So I guess what I'm saying is I hear when people wanting to, to sort of equalize things. But I think it just is naive to ignore the journey of people who have been on the margins in our society, brings up the idea to me essentially refer to the spiritual aspect of this, theologically, the idea of incarnation of entering into what is other to take it further to do it even in physical form of going into neighborhoods, going into friendships, experiences, that really requires humility on the part of whites and or a majority to say, I don't know. And I need to learn, say more about mythical, you talked about culture, even though some of those assumptions are mythical. Yeah. Well, I will answer that. But I do want to actually even come back to that humility thing you said. So hopefully, I'll do that in a minute. But what I mean by mythical is, and others have written on this, I'm, I'm not a historian. So I'll say that straight out. But there is a myth of America's Christianity, a myth of America being built by rugged individualism, and a myth of this America, of a nation of immigrants, where different people are, you know, they come in and they become part of this melting pot. And I'm seeing the reality of it is, you know, America, whatever that is, this, this nation, however, we want to define that has actually always depended on exploiting people. And there's not been this rugged individualism. Take, for example, all the Asian Americans who came when when slavery was outlawed, they still needed cheap labor. So all these Asians come particularly Chinese and work on the railroad. And, and there's a lot of stories of how dehumanized they how they were treated, right. And then, of course, we get that famous picture when the East meets West. And, and the railroad is done across the country. And there's not an Asian in the picture, right, as these white business people and others in there as if the railroad was accomplished by Justice, white strength and ingenuity. No, that's not an accurate picture. That's a myth. So that's what I'm getting at. There's, there's a myth of how the country was built, if we leave out the exploitation of people of color, if we leave out the dismantling and destruction of indigenous Americans. So it's not to say that you can't recover in some way from horrors of the past, it is to say, if you don't face up to them, they will always keep haunting. And I think that that's what's happened. And now I'm no expert on South Africa. But certainly they had to some degree, they have tried to deal with the past in some way, as they were pressing forward, you know, after the dismantling of apartheid. So I think here in our country, we've had a reluctance to, to talk about the pains of the past. You hear ethnic minorities bringing those things up, and why people get upset. And they'll say what I'm talking about that you're bringing race into it, and it's always been in. And so the myth I'm referring to is the thing that we've had in America that did not exploit people of color. And, and the myth of believing that one interpretation of history is correct. Because I remember hearing well, if that's a liberal perspective, then it's revisionist history. It's not really accurate history. And again, what if, what if there's multiple perspectives and actual realities that are very different than how we perceive it? Right. And I think that's why going back to something you said earlier, in terms of listening To to others. I think that part of what we do in history is try to reconstruct those narratives we try to learn from the from the various stories. I mean, I don't maybe it's revisionist in the in a negative sense where people think something's got changed or altered. But I think it's revision is right in the sense that we're learning that what we were taught wasn't the full picture. So yeah, I mean, I, I take something as simple as my last name Edwards, right? I have no idea how I got that name. And it's a English name. And I don't know any English ancestors. We can't really tell our history beyond a certain point in this country. So so the reality of it is, there's a there's is part of our history, that's ugly. And and rather than ignoring that we should have as a nation wrestled with it to the point where we said, what do we need to do to to make things be different, and that different, be better? Instead, we have largely, and I hear this a lot from the Christians, we've tried to ignore it, because we say it doesn't matter. It's in the past. But the past always impacts the present. Yeah, as a psychotherapist, I'm aware of how that happens even on the individual or marital level. And so it's, it's only going to happen infinitely more on the cultural level when you're dealing with millions or hundreds of millions of people. That's a good point, I wanted to come back to that incarnation thing you said really quickly, because the scriptural passage that many have been wrestling with, and I include myself in that is the Philippians passage, they are chapter two, starting even from one all the way down to 11, where the apostle Paul is pleading for this unity in the congregation that would make his joy complete, as he puts it. And then he goes on to say, consider others bettering yourself. And here's the picture, you know, be like Jesus, who didn't consider equality with God, something could be exploited for personal gain, but he emptied himself. And we all say we want to be like Jesus. And we sing that and, and in many ways, people of color Christians particularly, have often been serving the larger body of Christ in so many ways, and many thankless ways. And, and it hasn't always gone the other way. So I think this notion of incarnation is a powerful one that you bring up, that there may be there may be more to explore there for why Christians I allude to it in the in the essay in Christianity today, I just briefly, I mentioned that Philippians two, because I think that we can, we could as a people as Christian people, but I'm gonna say, particularly white Christians, find a lot to be Christ, like, if we could learn or if they could learn to, to give up in order to gain another paradox of the kingdom. I love that. That phrase of incarnation came out of a book I'm reading by Wendy Farley, who is a gay theologian. In I believe, at Redlands college, she used to be at Emory. And she has a book called gathering those driven away. And it looks at the idea of incarnation through a theology of the oppressed, and its North American oppression as opposed to Latin American oppression like liberation theology. So thank you for following up on that. Two questions. They're interrelated. And then we can wrap up with a second one. This is another thing I've been observing, I've heard Christians say and seen on social media. Well, you know, the only solution is Jesus. And of course, the answer is always Jesus, right? Like the kid in Sunday school. But what are the questions? Hopefully, that's being redefined right now. But as I think about that, the answer is Jesus. So much of the Bible Belt and other Christian groups have, for the last couple of centuries been explicitly overtly racist, or where there's just pockets of that being far more prevalent, accepted and encouraged. So if yes, the answer is Jesus, of course that has social political, cultural, financial, donating go protest, get to know the person whose other but when you hear that, where does your mind go? Well, thank you for asking that. Because it's probably one of the things that irks me the most. I've even given talks and sometimes it's been people of color say, well, we just need Jesus and I think what you're saying I don't disagree with but what you really mean is not what everybody else is here. In other words, for some people when they hear we just need Jesus, it's Jesus package the way that they have already been packaging him. He's white. He's American. He's about their personal ticket to heaven. So, so it's not that I would disagree. We do need Jesus but we need a robust picture of Jesus. Jesus who upsets the the the applecart, if you will, who who reoriented reorient our whole lives, who who who dismantles the things that we were holding on to as idols? I mean, that yeah, we need a Jesus, but we need that idol smashing Jesus, the iconoclast Jesus, and many ways we've created a different Jesus. So. So I feel like that answer is so simplistic, because if we if we and that's and some folks think, you know, we're just talking politics as if that's a dirty word. Now, honestly, I think that if enough Christians really saw Jesus in a better light, or in a more, you know, encompassing or bigger way, it would lead to some policy changes, because we wouldn't want to have any structures that were oppressive to fellow human beings, even if they were not other Christians, even if they're just human beings. We wouldn't want any system to be oppressive if we had a fuller sense of bigger picture of Jesus, although the name of this podcast and the name of our ministry is restoring the soul, and I'd like to like to think that one of the if not the primary purpose, reason why Jesus came and lived and died and rose is for restoration, the restoration of all things. So restore humanity, where all of us are at at that throne and at the table. So here's my last question. Give me a seven point plan for fixing all this. Alright, so I'm gonna plug my book, right, because then, no, not a seven point plan. But no. So I want to I preorder your book, it's on Amazon. What is what is it coming out? By the way, on September 8, I believe it is. Okay, so talk about your book for a minute. The title is Mike from the margins. And the subtitle is the Gospels power to turn the tables on injustice, the turning the tables is sort of an allusion to Jesus in the temple there. But the mic from the margins, I'm basically trying to make a case that I think the Bible is made, but I just want to make it explicit, that our, the way of Christ, the way of Jesus is not the way of the people we take to be the most powerful in our society. The way of Jesus is found in people that are presumed power less the people that don't have status, children, women for many years, people of color, ethnic minorities, people will not physically able bodied. This is where we look for Jesus. And our prophets emerge from that group are people who can help diagnose injustice for people who, who can turn their righteous anger into the correct kind of activism. I mean, this is this is where we see Jesus. I mean, Jesus Himself came as part of an oppressed minority within the Roman Empire came at a time where his people were on the margins. So that's, that's the basic issue. So even though I say that in a couple of sentences, of course, I tease out a lot more in the 10 chapters. But I want people to know that I also try to center the voice of those on the margins, rather than it being a book that's about white people trying to learn a lesson. It's a book that celebrates all of us marginalized people, I hope in a way that blows wind in our sails and helps us to lock arms in solidarity. And it sounds like it's more than just an idea of this of this power from the margins, but it's a hermeneutic. It's a worldview. It's a way of looking at the scriptures and at stories, and every person and every culture has a story. Yes. Well say No, I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, I can't wait to get going, then maybe you can say it, because that was that you said it very well. There. Thank you. Yeah. Well, if you're looking for endorsements, I would be happy to do that. If the title alone caught me right away. I have a sister actually, that used to teach as an adjunct at Northpark, where your full time faculty, and she did her master's in liberation theology, and then got a doctorate at Northwestern. And she's a blue eyed, fair skinned woman who lived in Nicaragua for a couple of years. So the whole idea of the theme, the power of the week and the theology, it seems like even white people have a hard time understanding the beatitudes in a way that reflects that first century Palestinian context in which Jesus taught them Dark skinned people, by the way. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, I think I gravitated toward out of baptism. Partly because of the way Anabaptist see those see the see the Beatitudes. I mean, one thing quickly is some some folks in the worlds that I used to be in as a young guy would see those as like commands of how we're supposed to get our act together. Like if you could just be, you know, poor in spirit, God would would, would give you the kingdom, if you could just be rather than sort of pronouncements on people who are in these places, you know, bless, what are those who mourn, I mean, there are people who are already mourning, and Jesus pronouncing blessing on them, even though it doesn't appear that their status is one that would be blessed. So So I think you're right, and a certain amount is a great place to start when we want to talk about the the ethics of the kingdom, and how they might be lived out in every cultural time. I think that's, that's a good place to go. So back to my facetious seven point plan, based on your book, and what you and you mentioned, that you and your wife have done to speak into these issues for a number of years, that that one of the primary things is for, for whites to begin to consider the worldview and the nature of power, that power under the power in weakness, that power and vulnerability, that power and other all of that is the reality of what brings forth healing and unity. Would you just expand upon your own idea that I summarized? Yeah. No, that's awesome. You know, it's funny, because we're in a, in a weird time where we know that I think when I say we, I think we Christians, you know that, but we don't really, really deeply believe it. Because, you know, there's a rallying and now around freezes, like, you know, America first or, or the greatness of America, there's a tremendous amount of money we put into the military. Now, I know some people get angry right away. And so what don't you think we should keep ourselves safe? I think that the weird thing is that the kingdom values of Jesus are so different than what we think it's frightening. Because we put a lot of energy into maintaining our own human bodies and our own personal desires. And we even have created theologies around our own personal desires and happiness, that we miss this self giving powerful message of Jesus, that is really loving God and loving neighbor, which is, which is way more radical than bringing cookies when they move in, you know, it this, there's something about this, this self emptying love that I think people could really I mean, I'm trying to learn that for myself. And I think America has protected itself. American Christians have protected themselves by saying, Well, look, we've got we got to have a big army, we've got to be strong. We've got to be in your face. And a lot of our behind our current president, who, who projects this kind of image. And I think rather than critique it, they have said, Yes, I want that, because there's something about that, that feels empowering to them. But it's opposite the way of Jesus. I mean, I don't even know any other way to say that. Maybe this is an opportunity for our country to reorient and re examine everything. And I know that's a process. Yeah. And that's something that we would all like, hope and pray for, but, but it's hard work. And it comes down to one heart, one soul, one conversation at a time. Yeah. Yes, that's true on in a sense, but I also think there are some bigger big movements that are not, yes, there's a both and for me, there's the one at heart at a time, which is like a conversion, right? I mean, there's a cause we pray that way we preach that way we do our church that way we want maybe it's one heart at a time. But I think simultaneous with that there are some policy things right? I mean, if the policy things may impact a bunch of people at one time, so if I can, if I if I as an institution doesn't have to be the whole government, if I have an institution that that continually makes it difficult for black people to survive there, right? Even though I say we want you to come but then I make it really hard for you to survive, then it's not a matter of one heart at a time it's a matter of changing this culture, right. So that the institution at least become safe enough that now I can have those one at a time conversions. So So I think it's a both and and sometimes environmental are just too hostile for us, so that there's no chance for for people to rub shoulders and get to know each other. Because I'm black folks. It's just not safe for us to be there. Yeah, well, on that note, I want that thought to sink in to all of our listeners and would you come back on the program when your book is coming out and just just unpack that. Oh, I'd love to that would be awesome. And thank you for reaching out and for understanding my needs as a person, as well as, as, as a scholar, you know, not just what I can give, but who I am. So thank you for that, Chris. Yeah. Well, thank you. God bless you and your family. And hopefully we'll talk again soon. So thank you for listening to another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. What we're all about is helping couples and individuals get unstuck. You know how some people go to counseling or marriage therapy for months or even years and never really get anywhere. Our intensive programs help clients get unstuck in as little as two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com