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Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. There's a growing crisis for church leaders in America. Recent data collected from Barna indicate that us pastors are currently in crisis and at risk of burnout, causing them to give up their ministry calling, or even jeopardize their marriages and families. In 2021, alone, there was a dramatic increase in the number of pastors who are thinking about quitting ministry entirely. With pastors well being on the line, and many on the brink of burnout. 38% indicated they had considered quitting full time ministry within the past year. Now we here at restoring the soul recognize this crisis and want to do everything we can to support pastors and their wives in this fragile season of their lives. On this edition of restoring the soul, Michael welcomes pastor Sean C of Athens church, Sean discovered restoring the soul and took part in a two week intensive with Michael that changed the very course of his life. Today, they'll discuss the story of his crisis moment, the redemption and healing that grew from that time, and how today he lives and loves and leads from a place of vulnerability. So Now without any further delay, here's your host, Michael, John Cusack. Sean C. Thanks for taking time to talk with me today. It's an honor to be here. We've known each other for I thought about this before the interview today, going on three years this fall is when we first started talking. And then you came to Colorado we met face to face right before Christmas three years ago. That's right. We briefly share the story leading up to coming to Colorado and doing an intensive at restoring the soul. Yeah, absolutely. Before I got connected with you, I had been in professional ministry kind of post seminary about 14 or 15 years and never really had any kind of substantial break other than, you know, vacation or Christmas break or something like that here or there. And Bonnie and I have three children. And our children are now 1615 and eight. And we both came from pretty broken homes. And so we came into marriage carrying some of our own baggage and mass. And I would say as the fullness of our family got on, you know, the reality of our world, all three of our kids got into our world. And then I got into the role of being a lead pastor. I think some of the pressures of life began to mount for me. And I began to feel as I was getting home, that I just wasn't leading in the way that I wanted to lead. And and I want to be careful how I say this, because it'd be really easy for me to paint this as well, I was just really sensitive and aware that I wasn't leading Well, the more accurate picture is, my wife made it really clear to me that I was not leading well. And I and I knew inside she was right. But honestly, I don't think I knew what to do about it. And so the truth of the matter is, if you saw me outside of our home, you would see me as someone who is extroverted, and interpersonal and, you know, laughing and positive for the most part. And yet when I got home, it was a lot more harsh and critical, and corrective and demanding. And it just I just wasn't a healthy person. And so I was really causing my wife and my children, a good bit of pain. And so that came to a head for us. I remember distinctly Labor Day of 2012, there was a real defining moment for us. And that moment, Barney just said, Hey, we've got to find a different way. This just isn't working for us. And so Barney actually reached out to a mentor couple that we had in our lives. John and Debbie been a big part of our lives at which time they encouraged her to reach out to my accountability partners, Brent Michael. And those guys all kind of came around me eventually the elders from our church got involved and just kind of began this conversation around my emotional health and the state of my wife and how I was leading at home. It was a really, really humbling time. But in that it was actually I think John's original recommendation was that his term was wasn't the gift of some time, that maybe the elders of our church would allow me some time to begin to kind of further investigate what was going on in my heart in my life. And which led me to some research, which is how I found restoring the soul and Michael Kusik, which ended up being just completely life changing for me. What was it like for you to go through that process where Bonnie was giving you this feedback, and your life was almost like in two different compartments where you were functioning so highly in ministry, and yet at home, things were different. And then suddenly, it comes before the elders and friends and not not public. But what was that? Like? I mean, you mentioned humbling, but how did how did you experience that? Well, it was, yeah, humbling is the most general term that I can use for it. I mean, it was completely overwhelming. It was humiliating. It was It was horrifying, right. I mean, you're right from the, from the elder vantage point from the people at my church's vantage point, I felt like I was leading Well, our church was thriving, a lot of things were going well on that front and even, you know, look at our Christmas cards and look at our family had a beautiful family. And so many things were going very well from the outside looking in. And I think, as Bonnie began to make others aware of the realities that we were, you know, actually experiencing inside our home, it was really scary. I knew that there was truth in what she was saying. But I was so afraid that I was just justifying, I was just self protecting. You know, I was afraid I was gonna lose everything that I valued in life. I mean, I remember distinctly in that period of time prior to coming to spend time with you thinking, I mean, having conversation and what would it be like to not be married anymore, and not be in my role in ministry anymore and seeing my kids occasionally, and it was absolutely devastating. And so that was, that was incredibly difficult. I did not receive any of that news easily. I was very combative. Actually, I remember distinctly. Michael, not long before coming to see you. I had lunch that I had with one of my elders. And I had just spent some time in a monastery that's not far from here. And so I was really enjoying just some some quiet space. And I had a lunch with him. And he just said to me, Shawn, I think you've just got to stop protecting yourself. You just got to stop defending. And you just got to listen and receive. And oh, man, that was just so hard for me to hear. Because I felt like I had so many good self justifying arguments. And if she would just do this, then I would, you know, not do what I was doing or whatnot. But as Barney began to make those things, you know, more public, which she did in a very appropriate way. It was It was horrifying. It was humiliating. I was scared to death, it was very, very hard. And again, just to be clear, you were not in any way. Crossing sexual boundaries. You were not beating your wife. This was how you are relating on a day to day basis. Absolutely, yes. Yeah, if it weren't, there weren't any of those kind of things going on. By the grace of God, I wasn't looking at pornography, or, you know, those weren't my struggles. I had plenty of struggles, those weren't them. Mine was that in my home specifically. I was angry, I was negative. I was critical. I was harsh. I lacked any empathy. And I'm just demanding, and just a really, really hard person to live with and be around. You weren't waking up in the morning saying, you know, today I want to go to work and be one person and then be another person at home. You were you were quite confused about why there was the split. 100% Yeah. Not only did I not want to be that person I desperately wanted not to be that person. I mean, I could tell the moments. I remember distinctly waking up on a Saturday morning and going my boys have a baseball game today. And man, this is going to be a great day, you know, the the most fun day of the week. And within an hour, I'm screaming at people in the home and I'm frustrated and upset and and then I'm, you know, irritated at the baseball game. And so yeah, I didn't want to be living this way. And I didn't want our family to function this way. And I was trying to change it in every way. I knew how. And I just couldn't. So for all intents and purposes, the elders granted you a sabbatical some time away to kind of work on issues to heal. And you ended up coming to Colorado for two weeks. And what was it like before you came look What were you thinking? Were you thinking this is going to be like a head shrinking organization? You know, what, what were your thoughts? Well, I will say at least I hoped it was gonna be a miraculous organization because that's what I needed. That's for sure. Well, I think add to that, Michael. So I'm part of the the North Point ministries family in the Atlanta area. And we've kind of got churches all around the country. And that's been phenomenal. I love the NorthPoint family and just been so life changing for me and love the ministry. But sabbatical is actually not even part of our system at all. And no one does that in our system. So in We're not against it, it's just hasn't been a part of our flow. So I didn't really have any idea what to expect about time away. I remember researching time away, which is how I came across you trying to find something for pastors and and so yeah, I didn't know what to expect. And in terms of coming to spend time with you, I will say I mean, I was hopeful I had a desire that things would go good, but I didn't know what to expect. And I had met with multiple counselors before. So this wasn't my first time in counseling. But I just mean, I just hope and pray that it would be something different and something unique this time. Because I knew that I desperately needed something. I just didn't know what I needed. So I think I just came just hoping and trusting that somehow the Lord was leading in this because I was I was pretty desperate. And so what was it like for you when you did arrive, and you started into the Monday through Friday rhythm for two weeks? It was unbelievable. I'm a raving fan, on so many levels. But I just Michael, I'll you know, just being personal here because my interaction was with you. But you just did such a phenomenal job of listening to me. And understanding me. I mean, the story, as I've told it may not have been exactly how it transpired. But was that you spent substantial time in the early part of our intensive together getting to know me and really getting to know my story. And after you had listened really thoroughly. You presented to me hey, here's, here's what I think I see. Here's what I think I observe about you. And, and obviously, you've heard many, many stories before mine, this wasn't the first time that you shared some things with me some insights about me and about the way I function in life. That up to that point in my 40 plus years of life, no one had ever shared with me insights that no one had ever given me. And they were so eye opening and so helpful. But just your your demeanor toward me from from day one was just it was so for me, it was so with me. And it just really positioned me to receive what it was that you were communicating. And I feel like that the Holy Spirit was absolutely leading that time and, and that God was just with us and guiding every moment of it. Would you be willing to share what some of the things what some of that feedback was for you that had such an impact? Absolutely, yeah, we have to have longer than just this podcast, probably to, to get into all of it. But you know, I remember specifically, there were two terms that you said, Hey, Shawn, when I hear your story, I see two words that kind of stand out. And the words were fighter and survivor. And, Michael, I mean, you know, here we are, you know, several years on the other side of that conversation. And I still distinctly remember you communicating those for the first time, and they were so accurately descriptive of who I was, and who I am in many senses and kind of who they're the first, you know, I would say 1520 years of my wife built into me. And, and I, you know, within that, we talked a lot about shame. We talked about the messages that I had believed my my mom really wasn't much a part of my life. My parents were divorced when I was about five, she was out of my life pretty much for good after I don't know the age of eight or nine, except for on very sporadic basis. And my dad tried hard to do things well, but made a lot of poor decisions as he would be the first to tell you as well. And so I remember as well, you talking about the concept of emotional poverty. And I had never heard of or thought of that term before. You talked about how people grow up in financially impoverished environments. And you said, Shawn, it sounds like that you grew up in an emotionally impoverished environment. And that was just brand new information. But what an incredible insight that was for me because it gave some context for why I had no empathy in my life. You know, I had no ability to feed You're with other people what they were feeling. And so several of those insights were just so significant for me. You also introduced me to Brene Brown as a person that helped me to put some more handles around shame. And God has used her greatly in my life. I've read everything she's written essentially. And, and, and so that just allowed me to continue some ongoing learning after our time, which was really significant, because our, our time together was very significant. But obviously, I still had a long ways to go from there. So those were a few things that stood out that were just incredibly powerful for me. And during the intensive, obviously, in the sessions, where we would meet for three hours a day, and that's kind of standard in our intensives. There's lots of interaction that gives insight where you're able to receive truth, like, there's this emotional impoverishment and the idea that, that you were a survivor and a fighter, but talk to me about how other than insight and information that you're getting to connect dots, how well see intensive impacted you, for example, time of journaling outside of the sessions, I know that you, you did a lot of because I encourage you to do this a lot of sightseeing and checking out restaurants in different places. And that all goes into for a person in ministry, the overall healing process because it's not just coming and being monastics sitting in your hotel room. Oh, no doubt. Yeah, well, first of all I loved loved my time in Denver, and I have to give a shout out to snooze my favorite restaurant. And I don't know if they're getting any, any marketing dollars from this, but you should reach out to him. But anyway. Yeah, I mean, the times that we spent together were incredibly significant and powerful. But as you say, so were the times after, you know, each day as I got to go have some time alone. I mean, that was the first time anyone ever had ever taught me about the concept of a centering prayer time. That was just powerful for me, you know, spending 20 minutes just alone being with God. And, and I even remember, Michael, you know, it's kind of funny, the things I remember, who knows how many of them you actually said, verse just, I don't know, the Lord gave me interpretation of or whatever. But I remember the first time that you were describing that to me, and you were talking about just being with God, you're not necessarily asking him for anything. You're just spending time in His presence and enjoying him and letting him enjoy you. And, and you said, very helpfully, you said, Hey, and just you know, your mind is going to wander, you know, you're going to kind of begin to think about what the score the ball game was, or what's going on at home, or any number of things are going to come to your mind. And you said, when that happens, I don't want you to envision that God has grown irritated with you or frustrated with you. And he's like, Shawn, why can't you keep just keep it together? You know, why can't you just focus for this time? But rather, I want you just to envision God saying, hey, that's okay. We'll, we'll talk about that later. But right now, why don't we just be together? Why don't we just enjoy each other and, and you helped me was a term that I could focus on that would kind of help bring me back and, and that was just just powerful a life changing for me and I journaled so much. I got outside a good bed, actually, when I was there in December, I remember distinctly it was zero degrees a couple of times. So I didn't get out outside of time, but I actually got drove some and, and all of that was just a really powerful part of the experience for me, again, in which going into it, I was scared to death had no context, you know, but I was I was pretty desperate as well. I want to just say thank you for sharing that. You use the phrase that I had little or no empathy. And that's no small thing for a pastor and a Christian leader, like yourself to say, and you said that on another podcast, which gave me the idea for this, but you've been very vulnerable about your story on a public level. So two questions, the first of which is, what would you say, are a couple of the biggest ways that the intensive impacted you? And then secondly, why did you decide to go public with your story? Yeah, in terms of how the intensive impacted me, I mean, it's just it was it was so many ways, but I think, you know, several of the things I mentioned the insights that you kind of brought into my world were so big, and were so significant. But I think the Holy Spirit just met me there as well. You know, I don't think there's any other way Ah, describe that other than God was with us. And God was with me, and was leading us. And it was just powerful. So it opened up some new categories for me about who I am, what I'm like, and what I needed to do moving forward to stay in becoming even more healthy person. So those were all really, really significant parts of the intensive and, and, and then, you know, it helped me as well realize that, hey, I'm not just crazy. It's not like I just want to be a jerk. But there's some broken things in the air that are leading me to respond in these ways. And, and I think it gave me a game plan for becoming a more healthy individual, a more healthy leader. And so the intensive was just yeah, I could literally talk for hours, about how significant it was for me, you actually within, I don't know, several months to a year, you began to share not just with your team, but eventually with your congregation about some of your journey. And then, more recently, on a national and international podcast, why did you make that choice to, to go to that level of vulnerability? Yeah, you know, um, well, I'll say it began with conversation that you began in the closest circles, right, begin that conversation with the Bonnie and she was incredibly receptive and responsive. And I just want to say, by the way, when I came, when I left to come be with you, my marriage was in a really, really difficult place. And we were both very hurt and afraid. When I got back, almost immediately, we were in a different place. Now, we weren't in a healed place. But we were in a different place that the intensive had made a substantial step for us. That allowed us to begin moving forward. And now I can just tell you, you know, several years on the other side of this, that our marriage is in a dramatically different place. But it started with Bonnie shorter than that, that first circle, if you will, and then my accountability partners, my mentors, but then I went to my staff team and the way our staff team functions, I just lead very relationally. And I try to invite them into my circle. So even before I came out to the intensive, I told my staff, hey, look, Bonnie and I are having some real challenges and, and we need your prayer. And so they understood why I was taking time off. And they didn't understand all of the specifics, but they definitely understood enough. And so when I came back and began sharing with them, some of what God was doing in my life, and some of what had happened throughout the entire time away, which the the intensive was the center anchor point of that, I just noticed an incredible receptivity, you know that the general fear around vulnerability is, the more vulnerably I share, the less I'll be respected and admired, because they're gonna see my junk and see how broken I am. But the truth that most of us experiences, the more admiration and respect we receive, when we're willing to share those parts for our lives. And so I began to experience that at the next circle of relationships, our elders and our staff. And that was just really positive. And so I think it just eventually made sense that this is something that needs to be shared with our church as a whole. Because, number one, it's true. It's who I am. And I have personally found people have said, some really encouraging things to me about my choice to be vulnerable in these areas, but I have found more peace and more joy in being authentic and vulnerable, than by living in a duplicitous way that gives an outward group the impression that I'm more put together than I really am. To me, that requires more energy to live with that, you know, kind of fake mindset or approach if you will, than just being who I really am. So it's it requires less energy for me to just tell you the story and be who I really am and let you choose to either respect me or not respect me or value or not value me. And so, um, so as I, as I thought about my church, I just started thinking, Alright, if I'm battling these things, and if other people I know are battling these things, it's probably true for lots and lots of people in our community. And so why don't I just talk about it, and allow people to begin this this conversation? And oh, my goodness, Michael, we did that. And it was absolutely a game changer for us for our for our church as a whole it is it has changed the culture of our church. And I just am so incredibly grateful to for the way the Lord has allowed that and In response that it's received. Well, and that's why from day one, I do what I do with leaders. And it's so cool because as the heart of one leader becomes whole and free, it's like that proverbial stone dropping into a pond where the, you know, the circles just go out concentrically. And so I get chills when I hear you say, and I know this because we're in touch regularly, but that it's changed the culture of the church. That is just so cool. And it's so powerful for you to say that there's more joy, and an energy available by being your true self, as opposed to allowing the false self to dominate you. Because unconsciously, that really does require a lot of energy to kind of keep the mask on. Yeah, a ton. And it's so much more liberating, just to be me, and to be where I am. And, and I can't even tell you the difference that it's made in our church. And literally, I could spend the next hour just telling you stories of people who continue to come into our church and say, Hey, I've, you know, tried various churches, or I've kind of been away from spiritual things for a long time. But when I come here, I just feel welcomed, I feel accepted, I feel like I can be who I am. And, and people are finding Jesus and finding live change and really powerful ways through that. Shawn, what would you say to the pastor who has brokenness in his life, and maybe whose marriages really struggling or they're struggling with an addiction or something, but but they don't have a safe community? They don't have an elder team or a staff team that if they went to them, could or would handle that? Well. Man, that's a difficult, a difficult reality. And first of all, I would just say that, I believe, I believe every leader in ministry is broken, you know, in some capacity, obviously, different levels, and each of us have different experiences. But I think broken is normal. I think that's somehow we have gotten this idea in, you know, American Christianity, that the spiritual leader is the person that you know, kind of has it all together and isn't dealing with the things that everybody else is dealing with. And I just personally been in ministry for a long time, that has not been my experience, not only with me, or but any of the other leaders that I interact with. And so I think any of the leaders that are living with that, that pressure that lie, I think it's just really important that they recognize that they're not alone, you know, that they are part of a broken fellowship of people that are trying to lead and trying to point people to Jesus, but doing so from a, you know, from a broken place. And so I think if they can establish that as the baseline of normal, that number one is really helpful, because then you, you don't feel like you know, you're the only messed up one. But rather, you're, you're part of a group of people that are but I think if you're, you know, if you're in an environment where people aren't as receptive to that, I'll, I don't mean for this to sound insensitive, but I kind of think it, it doesn't matter. And here's what I mean. Because if you're in a place of brokenness, the number one thing that you've got to do is get healthy, you've got to get your soul, your heart, your mind, and even your addictions in a healthy place. And if that means your leadership group is not receptive to that, then I think that's their issue to deal with. But you can't let that keep you from getting healthy because your your brokenness right now it is it has consequences within I can assure you of that, for you and for others. And I think your your best hope is, let's get healthy. And either these people will be receptive, or God will connect me to some other people that will, but I know that that is a very easy for me to say, standing here on this side of the equation. But I will say this as well. When I first started this journey, I didn't know how it would be received either. And I was scared to death. So I do relate to that fear and that uncertainty. And but I think it's a it's a risk, you just have to take because continuing to move forward in this broken place where you're not getting any better. It's it's not helping you and it's honestly not helping the people around you, Shawn, these these comments, and this conversation is going to be so helpful to so many people, I think it's going to empower them and give men and women courage to say yes, I really do need to deal with these issues. So it's always a blessing to talk with you and I specifically appreciate you being vulnerable on this program. So thanks so much, Michael. It's It is truly an honor and I just want to say thank you to you. God has us you and your influence in my life to change my life, my family, my church. And I'm just I'm so incredibly grateful. And it's it's an honor to be a part of the conversation with you. I received that bless you. Thank you. So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut you're in our intensive counseling programs in Colorado, allow you to experience deep change and half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more, visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com