Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe that what you actually experience on your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. Today we're featuring part two of a previously recorded five part series on how the Enneagram can strengthen your marriage or intimate relationship. Joining Michael is his restoring the soul colleague Kelly Gray, our resident expert on the Enneagram. Now Kelly is a self proclaimed growth nerd. She works councils and teaches at restoring the soul and specializes in intensive counseling with couples and individuals. Now prior to coming to restoring Sol, she worked as a private practice psychotherapist in the Denver area for nearly 17 years. She is deeply passionate about therapy, growth and laughing. She's a writer, teacher, speaker and group leader who's passionate about transformation and wholeness. As you'll hear Kelly's knowledge of the Enneagram is as practical as it is deep. A part two of this series will focus on how to resolve conflict with your partner, whereas part one showed us how to become an expert on our spouse or partner. Be sure to take a look at the show notes for links to other insightful conversations with Kelly. And now without any further delay. Here's your host, Michael John Cusack. Welcome to the program. We are here in our five part series, the Enneagram and marriage and we are kicking off episode number two, five ways the Enneagram can strengthen your marriage or intimate relationship. And I'd like to welcome back Kelly gray. Welcome to the program. Hey, thank you so much for having me. Love it, great conversation, the first time about becoming an expert in your partner. And hopefully the questions and categories that we discussed were helpful for people to think about their relationship, if not to sit down actually have some different conversations. So Kelly, give an overview of the Enneagram. And I don't want you to go through the nine numbers, we're going to assume that that is available in other places, and books and things like that, that we will recommend but just a description about what the Enneagram is. And then I know that you've used it in your work with couples as a framework. And I'm curious why that is the case and what what you've seen. So just a description to start. Yeah, the Enneagram is it's a personality temperament typing system. So it it has nine different types that describe just nine different temperaments of humans. So they're just kind of the prototypes. I say, that God that God made and so people are familiar with other types of temperament classifications like the Myers Briggs, the disc, even StrengthsFinder is getting after a lot of these categories. Which one is the golden retriever and the otter? I mean, that was a that was a rip off of the Myers Briggs basically, yeah. Mammals applied to the the mammal Briggs typology indicator. Yeah, but I digress. I'm sorry. But people get the idea when you say golden retriever, Otter, etc. Yeah, yeah. So the Enneagram has nine different types. And yeah, those are, you can really extensively study those different numbers. And the reason why I love using it in my work with couples, is because it's a bit of a shortcut in understanding the wiring of this person that you have committed to spend your entire life with, and that you are signing up for a lifetime with and you want to, to be able to bring them joy and know them well and understand them well. And when you can learn their Enneagram number, it can give you so many little, just little Backroads of understanding their wiring and their their complexity that could otherwise really take you a very long time to learn. So a shortcut to understanding how they see the world, how they feel, how they think, how they connect, and attach, what motivates them, and really helping them understand the essence of who their person is that they're with. Yeah, absolutely. And so I mean, I'm not promoting thinking that you totally have your partner 100% figured out if you read their number, of course not. Of course not. Of course not. As you study There are a number, I say do that with a very open hand and run everything you learn by them. So is this really the way that you you see the world? Do you think this way? Do you feel that way? Is this what bothers you the most. So I'm, I'm a big proponent of being very open handed and not at all treating somebody's Enneagram number like, like you truly have that person totally figured out. It's just a, it's just a very helpful guide and map. And for the person who does think they have their spouse or partner totally figured out, they probably ought to go to counseling and talk about why is that is to me about your mother. So we have five different ways that you have proposed that the Enneagram can help couples in counseling in therapy, and what's the first way that you want to share that it can be helpful, the Enneagram really can help you understand how you and your partner do conflict differently. Because oftentimes, as we are growing up, and we are fighting it out, or avoiding fighting it out with our families of origin, we grow up and we get married, and we kind of seem to enter marriage with the assumption that, that our partner is going to do conflict the same way that we do conflict. And most of us are very surprised to find that they do it pretty differently. And you're speaking about doing conflict, it seems like there's an assumption that some people actually do conflict, because there's a whole style where people say, I don't do conflict. Hmm. Yeah, those would be the, the more withdrawn types. So some of the numbers, the Enneagram, the fours and fives, and nines can tend to withdraw and to take their big feelings and, and kind of retreat with those. Not all fours will connect with me saying that. But when things are kind of painful or difficult for those, those three types of people, we aren't going to rush to the front, I say we, since I'm a nine, I'll come out of the closet there. But then they're the assertive types. And so the sevens, eights and threes, that their thoughts and their emotions, it's just so much quicker, it's on the tip of their tongue, they lean in, they lean forward, they they can process very rapidly, like let's jump in and just talked about and then kind of move on. Yes, yes, if they had it their way, and this has been very general, then they would just want to kind of push through duking it out, right away. And so if you've got an assertive type, and then a more like retreating, passive aggressive type, oh, man, they can really not understand why the other person is made, the way they're made, the way they're made, and not understand why the fights are just not productive. And they're never getting to a place of resolution. And what is the third group? Because it sounds like you talked about a person that withdraws the style that kind of gets in there and wants to mix it up. Is there a third tatter? There certainly is. And that that is the dependent stance, and those are ones twos and sixes and the in the dependent stance, they have an automatic default to kind of checking in on the other person taking, taking the temperature of people around them, and seeing how things impact the other person. And so they're a little bit more in between. Are these at all correlated? And I don't want to go off on a whole rabbit trail. But are they correlated to attachment styles? Because it sounds like that might be the case? Yeah, they really are correlated with the attachment styles of move towards move away from move against. And also in attachment theory, what's often called anxious attachment. That might be the dependent avoidant attachment would be the moving, withdrawn, withdrawn, and then the secure would be the against. No, I would say the, you know, that's a great question. Because I'd say in their less healthy average kind of default state, the assertive would be an aggressive move against whereas secure would be a more grounded and intentional responding from, like the grounded true self, which I say I'm so glad you brought this thought to me because I say we only I study the Enneagram and I encourage others to study the Enneagram so that we can transcend our default modes that are usually just kind of our egos running the show to keep us kind of at a more comfortable equilibrium. But when and Jesus was not Jesus does not have an Enneagram number. He was a true self, a perfect human. And so we have to be able to catch ourselves in the act of having a conflict style, like move towards move away move against, in order to transcend that and get to a more true self response of bringing our presence and an open heart and open mind. And that's what I would call the more secure attachment. So if I'm hearing you correctly, that any of the nine numbers can have a secure attachment, but it's being connected to the essence and the healthy, true aspect of that number. Yep, you got it. Okay. And really, Jesus doesn't have an Enneagram number. I didn't I did. Somebody did somebody say one of the theorists that God is, in some ways, like all nine of the numbers, and that that's, that's this idea of wholeness. Yes, the, the Enneagram is the face of God. And also, it's, I would also say, the body of Christ. So you have to see more about that, with the Enneagram being the face of God. Yeah. And we'll probably at least get three or four negative emails saying that we believe God is the Enneagram. But no, that's really intriguing. And I want to hear more of your reflections. So that's the face of God, and the body of Christ, that is more from the, the use of the Enneagram in spiritual direction. And it's more kind of mystical roots and uses there that it really is these nine different facets of the image of God specifically manifested in people, and we all need each other. And we are all bringing something, we all have positive motivations from our core. So each of the nine numbers is up to something positive that they're trying to accomplish. And working together when we're all functioning well, it's a beautiful picture of, of the Body of Christ. It's so fascinating. I just had a light come on in my head, you said that each of the nine numbers represents somebody being up to something positive. And in certain circles, and maybe on the pop level, I hear people going, Oh, you're a four or you're a seven or two. And it's always the focus on what's wrong, or the negative side like, oh, you're a perfectionist. When in reality, if I'm having brain surgery, I want that person to be a perfectionist. Absolutely. So there's, there's a positive reach and energy there. Yeah, that it's so important to so the Enneagram Institute, Russ Hudson calls them the Holy ideas. And so the holy motivation that is behind each of those nine numbers, so yes, whether for righteousness and all things being right and perfect and upright and functioning well, so that in the one yes, ones can certainly get teased for being rigid, and they sure can be when they're when they're struggling. But it's so important when you're studying the Enneagram to hold what the beautiful intent of the heart is that's behind and underneath all of those behaviors. Because it's when we start to struggle, that the ego really is kind of just trying to manufacture that original beautiful expression from God. So we hadn't planned on this, I'm gonna put you on the spot. Let's run through the Holy idea, or the positive reach for each of the nine numbers, and you can start wherever you want. Okay, yeah. For Type one. They were created by God to bring order and goodness, type two connection and love. Threes, value and worth. Fours, authenticity and individuality. fives, clarity and autonomy, sixes, awareness and loyalty, sevens, freedom and joy. eights, strength and presence, nines, harmony and wholeness. Wow, that's cool. So it's easy for me now to hear what you meant by the body of Christ that the nine numbers represent that in the face of God would also be true as you read through those that every person regardless of what their primary number is, has aspects of each of the other eight numbers. Yes, we all have all nine numbers inside of us. We really can. Most of us can relate to all the other numbers we have experiences that are very representative of those numbers. So let's say that I achieve something maybe the day I walk To cross the stage at Denver seminary and gotten my Master's in Counseling diploma was a real three moment I just felt this beautiful value and and worth and the culmination of working really hard to accomplish something. You're rocking music in your head? No. Do you want to know what I thought about when I walked across that stage? I said, Thank You God that I did not marry a pastor. Because you were graduating seminary Exactly. And then guess what I did two years later, you married a pastor. That's truth. Wow. Better be careful what you thank God for. But I remember, you were in one of my very first classes I taught at Denver seminary on 911 3911. Yeah. And so congratulations, you graduated, I totally did. And now you're working at restoring the soul. So happy to be here. Love it. Thank you for clarifying those nine numbers and how it relates to God and ourselves. That may be a new idea for some that we're all all nine numbers. And for me, it helps me to look at God more holistically. And it helps me to understand what it means to be made in his image as a two, and with all those other different numbers. Coming back to conflict, because that's the topic of this episode of The Enneagram. And marriage. You've talked about why you use the Enneagram in your work, and how it can help couples to understand how their partner does conflict. But once they understand how their partner does conflict, then what? Yeah, then when you have identified Okay, so I'll just talk about my own marriage, because it's the one I've worked on the most when we discovered so he is a he's in the dependent stance of a one. And but ones can be very assertive, too. So as you as you look into the INIA gram, you learn more little nuances like that that are helpful. So he cares a whole lot about what's going on with me and notices what's going on with me, and I am in the withdrawing stance, and so I can pull way back and be passive aggressive if, if I'm not owning that something's going on with me. And so that can help couples kind of brainstorm for good solutions for how to meet in the middle how to kind of accommodate both of their natural benefits, because then they can get through the issue and be productive with it a little bit faster. So a few interventions that I have come up with, that can work with differently matched types of one, I call it schedule the fight, and it's where you, you know, you've got something that you need to talk about, one person might have their thoughts all lined up, you know, if there were more assertive, gosh, those sevens for fighting with the seven, they know what they want to say, it is so impressive to me, I like to just kind of watch them. So but scheduling it is where you both own something's going on, and that it needs to get talked about. But the kind of more internal process or like I referenced in the last podcast, or the withdrawing stance, or some of the people in the the dependent stance, they will need some time to think about it. And so they can give a time suggestion of can we talk about it in 20 minutes, can we talk about in 24 hours, can we talk about it on our road trip this weekend. But just so long as they put it at a particular date in the future, and not just kind of shove it under the rug, which as you know, is a favorite, natural marital intervention of just ignoring it and hoping that it will go away. So I call that schedule the fight. And the person who needs the longer amount of time has to set the time. And I said that they need to bring it back up again. And when you say set the time you mean the date out on the horizon, as opposed to open ended, because I was going to ask you about isn't the research that says that when couples fight or have an argument for a duration of time. I've heard that after 30 minutes, things basically decompensate and nothing good happens after that. Yeah, that's a different category I would talk about where I that's just some good conflict, housekeeping that I give people around getting flooded, because when we're kind of flooded, and we've got lots of feelings and our nervous systems are all upset. If we just keep on going on and on and on and on, then nothing productive is happening. So it's a little bit of a different intervention. But that's extremely important, especially if we had two assertive types that we're wanting to hash through it. And what I find with the assertive types is they're typically trying really hard to get to a feeling of satisfaction and it's just not going to come when they are both flooded. So yeah, I'm not at all a believer in having these several hour long fights that people can come in reporting to me and be flooded you mean emotionally flood and physiologically flooded, where there's anxiety. People are feeling overwhelmed, angry, shut, down, numbed, escalated, withdrawn, but in a way where something in their body has overtaken them. Absolutely, yeah, they've totally lost the ability to be grounded and present with their, with their partner. And it's only from that place of grounded presence that we really have a chance of seeing the other person and really productively moving through. So I interrupted with that question, thanks for that response. The first one was scheduled the fight, what's the other one, I got a couple more. I will recommend to people with just totally different conflict styles to have a journal that they write to one another, they make an entry in the journal addressed to the other person and can put it on the other person's nightstand. And they work on communicating in that way, I have even encouraged couples to email each other. Because I'm just not big on any. If we have some idealized view of how we are supposed to do things in our marriage, oftentimes by the time somebody gets to my therapy couch, so we need to have kind of checked those at the door and say, All right, let's just talk about what works. You've tried to do all these things that haven't necessarily worked. So sometimes not even trying to hash it out in the same room together. But email, how do you find that that works? Because I would imagine that people can fire off an email. I think we know intuitively that sharing your frustrations in a relationship are not good for texting. But do people generally take the time to be reflective? And as thoughtful with that? Well, I mean, if I'm really like holding their hand and helping them walk through it, then yeah, I mean, if they bring thoughtful, reflective presence to it, yeah, I'm definitely not encouraging people to just fire off an angry email, unless somebody is so repressed, and so unable to use their voice, that they just need to kind of get the ball rolling. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So what else? Okay, I say really watch body language. This is, especially with the drawing types, I have an embarrassing example of this. My husband and I were trying to make a decision about I mean, it might have been something really simple, I think it was where to go to dinner, and I had an unspoken hope that we would go to a particular place. He said, You know, I just really don't want to go to that place and said the name, my shoulder, like dipped down and away from him. I mean, it was weird. My body had this really kind of turning away from him cold shoulder kind of response to him. And literally, what came out of my mouth was I don't care. I laughed and said, I think my body cares. And he said, I totally saw that that was super weird. So we can really get a lot of information out of watching the body language of our partners, and listeners are dying to know, did you or did you not go to where you wanted to go? I think that we did go to where I want to go. Okay, we cannot say the name of that establishment due to the Federal Trade Commission fair. We could be exponentially increasing their business by saying that on this international podcast, are there other ways that once you know the conflict style, that practically speaking, you can resolve conflict or use that conflict as a as a bridge to connecting? Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm really wanting to get across to people about using the Enneagram is that think that the Enneagram is going to show you that your partner is going to kind of have a scripted automatic response to you. And if you hang in there, and you don't get totally triggered by that, then you're gonna be able to move through your conflict more quickly. But we kind of all have these automatic defenses that come up. So if minds passive aggressive, and several of the numbers, they're going to have an immediate defensiveness. And when you can say, all right, I can have a little bit of acceptance of some defensiveness, I'm going to be patient with it and not meet their defensiveness with with increased firepower, but be patient with their defensiveness because like in the example of a one, they work so hard to do things the right way, that when you bring a criticism to them, it's kind of shocking to their system, because they really try so hard to do things right for you. And so when you can kind of weather that you really are able to get down to Okay, so now can I tell you what's going on with me? Are your ears open? Are you able to hear it? That's really good. Julianne has a one and I'm a two and so I want to caretake and not admit my own needs. And there is this part of her where she tries really hard to be right and to do right tend to be good and in really good ways. And one of the things I've had to learn is to let her vent and to not have to evaluate if it's right or wrong in the early years, it would be, Hey, that's not okay to do. And she, she finally said to me, you know, just just let me speak my piece, and know that this is not about you, but about how I'm processing. And then I could begin to understand that and then give that to her. And hopefully, sometimes I do, but talk more about scripted automatic responses as it relates to trauma, obviously, here at restoring so we work a lot with trauma, this is not a program on that. But how does the Enneagram number interface with a person's automatic response of dysregulation or being flooded? Yeah, it's just going to really, I want to say, juice it up, Jack it up, just increase. So if a one, I can move off of the one, so let's say a four can be kind of reactive, when when they're confronted on something traumatized for is going to be even more reactive. And so poor babies, they are getting double judged, then when they really kind of need double compassion, double patience, and listening. So the wounded, the traumatized eight, who is going to be more aggressive when confronted, will be more aggressive? Because their little system is trying to protect them against getting traumatized? Again, the defenses are kind of just be extra bulked. Is that what you have experienced? Yes, I have. And I don't like to use the word trigger all the time. So I'll use the phrase you just alluded to, and that is the nervous system, the nervous system in the individual who's traumatized will be more sensitive, and more prone to escalate or to withdraw to go into the classic fight or flight response, the freeze response, which oftentimes looks like shutting down or numbing out, there's two thoughts that I have, as we wrap up here, we just have a few minutes left, is we're talking about this and understanding how our partner does conflict, it makes me think that conflict is seen as a negative much of the time, either something to be won, or something to be avoided, or, you know, kind of a cross examination win lose proposition. And conflict is really just a part of any relationship. And I think I lived with this idea so long in my marriage, that there would come a moment or a day when I would read a book or get rough counseling sessions, and I would be able to avoid conflict. But that's not the case. No conflict is just housecleaning. I call it taking out the trash basically, that you have that you just got crap that piles up in the kitchen, or in your living room, or bedroom or wherever. And if you pretend like it's not there, it gets bigger and stinkier. And but if you deal with it, and you say, Okay, we've got some trash, we need to take out. Is it okay, if we schedule something? Can we talk about this dynamic between us? Later on? We've always got parenting dynamics, we talk about our parenting stuff on Thursday night. Yes, we should totally do that. Okay. That's when we're both really grounded and doing great that we have that kind of stance towards it. But yeah, there's a lot of work that goes into staying grounded and doing the just the, the marriage maintenance work of removing the conflict. But then you know, I mean, it feels so good. Once you've cleared it out of there, then you just you can feel so much more free and open and relaxed, and kind. And that's my second point that we'll wrap up with, and that is that many people have experienced conflict as a loss of relationship. Conflict leads to disconnection to abandonment to diminishment, to wounding, to shaming, and the list could go on. But how you're talking about it and freeze it up often use is that conflict doesn't have to be a barrier to intimacy and connection. It can actually be a bridge, it can be the very thing that leads to more of what we actually want. Yeah, absolutely. That goes back to that economy idea that we were talking about. On the last one that if you have an economy of negativity of tearing each other down of scorekeeping of pointing out flaws, then conflict is going to be a huge barrier to connection. But if you have that economy of giving the benefit of the doubt of seeking to understand one another, then conflict is just going to be a much more brief. This is theoretically Of course, challenging exercise that you walk through And then get back to the good stuff. I said, We got to get this junk out from between us. And then we get back to connected again and you're preserving that economy of of goodness between the two of you, Kelly, good stuff today that we're talking about. This is the second of five episodes on the Enneagram. In marriage five ways the Enneagram can strengthen your marriage or intimate relationship. I look forward to conversations three, four, and five. So thanks so much. Sure thing. Thank you so much for having me. So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut you're in our intensive counseling programs in Colorado, allow you to experience deep change and half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com