Episode 228 - Julianne Cusick, "Life After Betrayal”

“I came to see that Michael had the power to devastate me but not destroy me.”  - Julianne Cusick

What’s the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation? There are similarities in the definition - but they are a world apart when it comes to practical application. Today’s podcast features a conversation between our very own Julianne Cusick, who was recently interviewed by Bill Arnold on Faith Radio. On previous Restoring the Soul podcasts, we have featured Julianne’s story of overcoming the wounds of sexual betrayal, and what you will find in her conversation with Bill are timeless insights and fresh perspectives that will encourage anyone.

HELPFUL RESOURCES:
Afternoons with Bill Arnold
Episode 218 - Julianne Cusick, "A Holy & Horrible Journey"
Episode 195 - Julianne Cusick, “Devastated But Not Destroyed”
Episode 166 - Julianne Cusick, "Treatment Barriers to Healing from Betrayal Trauma"
Episode 165 - Julianne Cusick, "Barriers to Overcoming Betrayal Trauma"
Episode 115 - Julianne Cusick, "5 Things Husbands Can Do to Support Their Wives After Betrayal"
Episode 114 - Julianne Cusick, "5 Facts Wives Need to Know After Betrayal"

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- Tweet us at @michaeljcusick and @PodcastRTS
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Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Unknown: 0:12

Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. Do you know what the difference is between forgiveness and reconciliation? Well, there are certainly similarities in their definitions, but there are a world apart when it comes to practical application. Now it's our hope today that you'll find out the difference from a recent conversation. Julian Cusick had with Bill Arnold on Faith Radio. Previous restoring the soul podcast, we featured Julian story of overcoming the wounds of sexual betrayal, and have shared those links in the show notes. And what you'll find today in her conversation with Bill are timeless insights and fresh perspectives that will encourage anyone. So don't hesitate to take a moment to share this conversation with someone you know. So Now without any further delay, here's Bill Arnold and his interview with Julian Cusick. No surprise, we expect God to forgive us quickly. We know when we ask we have been forgiven. He removes our sins as far as the east is from the west. And forgiveness in the Bible is a release or a dismissal of something we've been dismissed from all charges of sin against us. So as Christians we are commanded to forgive. But how we get there is most likely going to look different, so hurt or disappointment or pain or betrayal will make forgiveness something we can only do through Christ. My guest today is Julianne CUSEC. She holds a master's degree in marriage and family therapy and is a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Colorado. Her passion is to fight for the hearts of men and women shattered after pornography affairs and other forms of intimate partner betrayal. She has 20 plus years of experience helping women in particular overcome the wounds of sexual betrayal and has a great ability for working with couples. She has led betrayal trauma recovery groups for women and frequently speaks about the impact of sexual betrayal. She just embodies hope arising from her own story of healing and redemption. She and her husband Michael CUSEC. They both can be found at restoring the soul.com Hi, Julian, are you having a perfect Colorado summer day? Hello, Bill. Yes, it is quite gorgeous here today in Colorado. Yeah, there's nothing loose guy. Yeah, it's nothing like the Colorado day with those beautiful mountains in the sunshine in the blue sky. Yes, that's what we have today. And I can actually see the foothills from my office window. That's awfully nice. As we are in need of forgiving somebody when it comes to betrayal or hurt. That seems to be the most challenging to forgive my right. Well, my first thought was I came to mind because you're aware of how much forgiveness I need. Oh, totally. Totally. Yeah. You know, it is a two way street. But yes, to answer your question, forgiving, intimate partner, betrayal, especially sexual betrayal is not an easy road, and it can be a long journey. Yeah. Julianne, before we get to your story, let's just look at the landscape of what's going on right now. With porn and affairs and all kinds of infidelity is that we've seen in the last 20 years. Yeah. You know, with the dawn of the Internet came Internet porn. And so no longer are the days of the hard copy magazines that you'd have to sneak and find and hide and share right now. And for the last 20 more years. It's a click of a button. And there are no regulations online for pornography, print pornography, there are regulations, but there are not any on what's available online. So it just runs the gamut and has just absolutely exploded. Friend of mine regularly says the only men that struggle with porn are the ones that have seen it. Yes, that's a good way of putting it. I mean, yeah. And it's not just men. And it's not just people outside of the church. It's women. It's people in the church. It's our Children. It's college students having it on in the background as they would music. It's just everywhere. Yeah. The use of it inside even the churches today, when you hear about the percentage of pastors that are struggling with it is it's kind of shocking. Yes, I have not looked at the stats recently. However, the last time I checked probably a few years ago, was about the same whether it was a person inside a church or outside the church. So about 50% than and I think it's even higher now. And some branches of religion, Christianity, actually do not see porn as adultery, or even a problem. In some circles, it's actually encouraged as something that could be helpful for an intimate relationship, a marriage relationship. I do not hold to that. Nor does the clinical research. support that, but it is something that I hear in my office. I'm a little shocked to hear that comes into your office, but I'm not surprised. I I'm never I'm never that surprised anymore. Yeah, sadly, nor am I Yeah. Well, Julia, maybe we could go back to the early days of you falling in love with Michael and deciding, hey, let's get married. Tell us about that. The start of that journey? Yes, I will be tried to be at least brief because I know we've talked before on the radio, and I've given kind of a in depth overview. But basically, you don't have to be briefed Julianne, just so you know, you know, well, we've acquired many more stations and have a whole lot of new listeners. So. Okay, well, congratulations to you. That's wonderful. I'm grateful and glad for your growth. Well, Michael and I met, gosh, almost 32 years ago. It was a love at first sight. During our courtship, he did sit me down and tell me that he had struggled with pornography and lust and sexual acting out. And he had been in counseling for a couple of years. I was young and naive, as many young brides are. And I said, Well, that's fine that it's in the past, but it's not okay for it to be ongoing. And so with that, we were married. And he was sober for a couple of years. And by sober I want to make a distinction sober is not acting out. But it doesn't necessarily mean freedom or healing or wholeness. And so I want to make that distinction. So he was sober. So he was an acting out for a couple of years. And then life stress and job transitions, and opportunity increased. And he was acting out for about a year that I did not know. And so the summer of 1991, just after our third wedding anniversary, everything came crashing down. He had said he was out on a crisis calls this back then, in those days, he did a lot of on call work. And he got home and I said I thought you were waiting for a call or had a call and the blood drained from his face and he bumbled over his words and was trying to tell me he didn't have a call. And I said, Well, that doesn't make any sense. Because 20 minutes ago, you said you did so you either did or you didn't what's going on. And that's when he confessed to about a year's worth of acting out deceiving me deceiving his best friend. Deceiving even himself, deceiving his his boss and his co workers. And so that was our D Day. And I did not see that coming at all. I was devastated. absolutely devastated, felt entirely completely betrayed. And it was through that process of still staying clinging to the Lord walking with him during that time that I came to see that Michael had the power to devastate me, but not destroy me. And that's one of the messages I have for women. So let's go back to that conversation. You've got probably a complete meltdown, I would imagine. Oh, I was in shock. Yeah. Really in shock for days. I just I could not Let's wrap my head around it. I did not want to share a bed or a bedroom with him, I didn't want him to touch me or talk to me. We went in and saw a therapist who had been a professor and mentor of ours and had known us for a number of years. And he said two things that I remember, just as clearly now as if he said them yesterday. And he said, Julianne, you have biblical grounds for a divorce. And I will drive you to the attorney myself. And the second thing he said is, Michael, if you're going to have a marriage with Julianne, you are 100% responsible, and Julianne you are 0% responsible. And that's about all I remember. And from that session, and I needed those words, and they have been a lifeline for me, for many years, and I've shared them with many other women. Marriage is supposed to be 5050. But when there's an intimate partner betrayal, a sexual betrayal, and that includes pornography, that includes masturbating, when it's done in secret, and the partner, whether husband or wife, whether they, you know, if they, if they don't know about it, it's a secret. It's a problem. And not only do I think porn is a problem, I think porn is a symptom of a greater problem, a soul problem. And back then, I was just in shock. For days for weeks. I didn't want to be married to Michael anymore. I told him, I don't love you. I don't know if I ever will love you. I wanted to leave, I really did want to leave him and pursue a divorce. At that time, I didn't feel released from the Lord, you know, by the Lord to leave the marriage. And so I told him, I said, The only reason I'm staying is because God hasn't given me permission yet, but I'm just waiting in any day. Now those papers are going to come in and I'm going to, I'm going to be leaving you. Well, those papers never came. However, there was a lot. A lot of things on Michael's behalf that he did that I saw that I experienced that really opened the way for me to be for me to stay for me to have trust and forgiveness. But it was not overnight. And it was not a quick process. When you in your story, saying that Michael was sort of caught red handed and the blood drew out of his face and and he had acted out what does act it out. Mean? I just want to make sure the audience understands what he did. Yes, well acting out. And my definition of it is anything from looking at at porn and masturbating secretively all the way to a full blown affair. It runs the gamut. Michael's acting out. He was abusing alcohol. He was looking at porn. He had had a history of sex for sale sex for hire. And so there were some dark behaviors that he was involved in. I'm not sure at that time, if he had gone to strip clubs that I know he had done that in the past. He did not have an affair and there were certain lines, flush lines, if you will, that he did not cross, which would have kept me from really being able to stay in the marriage relationship. That he had quite a colorful history in his teenage and early 20 years before we were married. So Julianne, when you are finding yourself in this moment of crisis, and you are trying to get some space, you're trying to figure out how to process this. Who was coming alongside you at the time. What kind of community did you have? Well, thankfully, at that time, we had a very well respected biblical counselor that was a trained psychologist that we had a history with. And he was just a true Godsend and a mentor to us during that time. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the transition, and where we were in our life, a lot of our friends were involved through graduate school, and once graduate school left, they would move on. And so at that time, my my best friend, my then best friend, had actually moved overseas as a missionary. And the only support I have was really our mentor. And then I found a therapist. And so I was pretty isolated and alone. And I do not recommend that I do not recommend women try and hold their husbands secrets. It was not helpful or beneficial. And I think for me, it actually made my healing process longer and more difficult and more complicated. It wasn't until about five years out that Michael was actually walking in freedom and leading men's groups and the men were getting free. And women started coming to me saying, hey, my husband's meeting with your husband, and would you meet with me? And you've been through this? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I don't want to talk about this. But God, talk about it. Yeah. Oh, he did. And we had a few choice words, he and I, yeah, I got turnout, you know. But then he won, he won, I threw up my hands and surrender and said, Lord, as long as you open the doors, I will walk through him and that you provide the opportunities to speak and I will speak and so here's that prayer from almost 30 years ago, Bill being answered that surrender right now with you reaching out to me. Me saying, Yeah, that's what I told the Lord, I would do. Yeah, it was five years out. And Michael was truly walking in freedom. But the isolation and the lack of support, and the shame that I felt over something I didn't even do was what my husband did. I think a lot of wives and women struggle with that. We think it's about us, we carry this shame. We don't want to tell somebody, and then they're gonna think badly about our husband, right? We're not gonna go call our parents and say, Oh, my gosh, my husband's been watching porn, and then have Christmas dinner with them, right? Like nobody, nobody wants anybody to know, which is why it's really, really, really important to find some confidential help. And someone that really knows betrayal, trauma that understands this isn't that codependency, co addict situation, that this is a trauma and emotional psychological trauma that has happened, and can find find one or two really good friends that you trust that you can share your story with? When I started doing that, that's when I really started to heal. And so really, yeah, yes, some support. It's so interesting, Julianne, that you bring up the shame part, which would drive a person into isolation and disconnect from people, which is clearly going to make things more difficult. Absolutely, absolutely. Shame is that core belief that we are bad, you know, and, and it's, it's one thing for my husband, who had done things that were bad, to have some shame, and some guilt over over that, but it was, it was new for me, and this has been helpful as I've worked with women, is so many of us have been covered in shame over something we didn't even do we have, like shame because of what our husbands have done, or are doing or continue to do. And some women think that it's to be tolerated, that men, you know, have this natural drive and desire and and it's normal and natural, and it is, but I think, to justify pornography ongoingly I think that crosses a line that I personally am not comfortable with. And I don't think is biblical either. Julian, when you say that addiction is the, you know, one of the the prot byproducts of addiction is the embarrassment. I mean, if you've got a child who turns out as a heroin addict, you're, you're embarrassed to tell your friends, yeah, you know that I've got a kid who's using heroin. It's embarrassing, right? Yes, I think a lot of parents struggle with that shame and embarrassment over their children, whether they're doing drugs or drinking, or they're having sex or smoking cigarettes or vaping. I mean, there's a plethora of choices out there that our young adults are facing that we didn't have 20 3040 years ago, and certainly not 50 6070 years ago. So it's a hard environment to grow up in, especially with social media and technology. And parents are not exempt from their own shame of what they have done or haven't done or their partner has done or hasn't done and it's not just actual, it's financial. It's gambling, it's debt. You know, there's all sorts of addictive behaviors and secrets that are kept In a marital relationship that can really be devastating. And not to mention, young Julianne has only been married three years, and all this is happening. So yeah, that fullness of life is isn't everything wonderful. So you take it to the spouse level. And not only is it devastating, but the foundation of your marriage is getting kind of shattered and rattled at a pretty young phase of it. It really was it was completely shattered and broken. And I remember thinking, Oh, my gosh, I'm going to be divorced. And I'll probably never even have children because by the time I get remarried, you know, it would be too late because I'm not wanting to get remarried anytime soon. As it was, it did take a long time for us to reconcile our relationship. But yes, I remember thinking Bill, I'm not old enough for this. This is something that happens to couples that have been married 20 or 30 years, you know, be married, right? This is not a problem. Well, guess what? Sex addiction, porn addiction, sexual acting out? affairs, they have no, no timetable. And I sadly sadly, they'll meet with many women and couples who've been married 20 3040 years. And they are facing this either have been ongoingly. Or it's recently come out that it's been going on for 20 or more years. And it's just devastating. To answer my question is When Michael obviously started groveling, I would imagine right away saying I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. But after you're getting the information that you received, and then getting his first initial apology, how does that work? Well, yeah, there was a, there was a long series of apologies. And more than just apology. One of the things was that I wanted to know everything, I didn't want there to be any secrets. And thankfully, he felt the same way. He didn't want there to be any secret. So there was a process of him, just telling me more of what he had been involved in that past year. Also, as he started to do that more awareness of his acting out before we'd gotten married back in his teens and early 20s. So there was a lot of disclosure that he was giving me. And it was actually the disclosure. And the the length that he went to, that actually helped me begin to trust him again, because it was so obvious that this man wasn't hiding anything from me. He was committed to bringing the truth to the light, which allowed me to trust. However, an apology was just not going to be enough for this kind of a betrayal. And what, what really opened the door to forgiveness was really Michael's brokenness, his humility, he never once said, Can you hurry up and get over this like, hasn't been enough time now? Aren't you supposed to forgive? That? You know, once you forgive and get over it, you're you're harboring unforgiveness? Oh, my gosh, no, he never said that. That would not have gone over with me. And sadly, I hear that happen in a lot of situations. And I think it's cheap forgiveness, to just think that somebody can forgive and move on, especially with that type of a degree of a wound. You know, Old Testament says, you know, what do you teach a law and you Pharisees, you treat the wounds of my people as if they are not serious? Well, I could say the same today, right? Whether it's a husband or a counselor or a pastor, if they're saying, Oh, you need to forgive them and move on. That's treating the wounds of that person superficially. They don't understand the depth of trauma, and damage and wounding that has happened to this person psyche. Michael, how, however, he was broken, he was remorseful. The Bible says that godly sorrow leads to repentance. And we know that repentance is a turning away, right going in a different direction. And that was really what I saw in my husband. I saw godly sorrow leading to repentance. And that's what allowed me over time to forgive. I don't believe forgiveness is a choice or a one time event. I think we're called to forgive. There's an there's a saying that's popular that says unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting somebody else to hurt. You know, we do forgiveness for ourselves. but that is separate from healing or restoration or reconciliation. So I may forgive the man who sexually assaulted me, but I'm not going to be in relationship with them. So forgiveness is different from reconciliation. I think that's really, really important. And I lived that. I think my process with with Michael was really about a year long of learning to trust him again. And again, a lot of that was based on how he was relating to me pursuing me. Not just apologizing, but truly being repentant and remorseful. I could see a change in him, I could experience a change in him. And he wasn't just giving me lip service. This was a new man that was emerging right before my very eyes. And so that made that process, you know, easier for me. And forgiveness is also not a one time thing. It happens over and over and over again, I remember walking through a divorce with a friend of mine. And when her face, her husband had been unfaithful, sexually. And it was a number of years after the divorce, and her mom was ill, and she was caring for her mom alone. And she said to me, I have to forgive. And she told me her husband's name, I have to forgive him all over again. Because I'm forgiving him for something new. Now, he had promised my mom and me that he would be there when she was in her dying days, and he's not, and I'm alone. And it's hard. And she's alone. And it's hard. And who would have thought three years after divorce, I would have to be forgiving my husband all over again. And so I think that's something that's missed in forgiveness is that there's always or can be, I shouldn't say always, that there's always the potential or opportunity for a deeper forgiveness down the road, the more I understand about the injury, the the more there is to forgive, the more my husband could own the impact on me, the more ownership he had, the more depth of forgiveness I could give him. And it was the process and a journey. And, you know, years later, I remember like the first anniversary of the D Day and the second anniversary of the D Day and the third and the fourth. In July of this year, it'll be 28 years, since that initial day, when I caught him in a lie and everything came unraveled. I couldn't be married to him if he continued to act out. In this way. He left that behind him. And that opened the freed the doorway, right created the freedom to actually have a restored relationship and reconciliation, that that is very separate from the process of forgiveness. But as different events would happen, there would be grief, there would be sorrow, and there would be opportunity forgive again, like, oh, it's three years out, and I'm really hurting about what happened back then. And because of that, we're dealing with this now. And Ouch, it hurts again. And I'm so grateful and thankful to my husband, Michael, he held space for that he allowed that five years after he would he would hold space for my tears and my anger and my hurt, that there were still parts of this betrayal that were impacting me, because of my previous wounding and my story, and no one could have hurt me in the way that that he did. And so it was very unique. And I think a lot of women feel that betrayal long after the event. And many husbands are like, I don't get it like why? Why do you need to forgive me again, I thought you already did that. And it's really a process of ongoing forgiveness and humility. And then that's what builds a relationship. Michael's head. I mean, I haven't been sexually inappropriate in our, you know, outside of our marriage, you know, but he's had to forgive me for plenty of other things. And so, we have now a foundation of our marriage. It's based on grace and forgiveness, and humility, choosing to humble ourselves before the other one, to seek forgiveness and to seek restoration. Julian that was amazing when you just revisit the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Yes, reconciliation. Tim me means a restored relationship. Forgiveness is separate it means I'm going to lay down my desire for you to pay for what you did. it, and I'm going to surrender that to God. And you and God deal with that. So I'm releasing myself from bitterness and unforgiveness. But that does not mean that I will then choose a restored relationship, that restored relationship and the reconciliation that Michael and I have. That came through a work of repentance on Michael's part, and him winning me over and trust being reestablished. And Michael being a trustworthy man and him showing me that, that led to reconciliation. We could have been divorced 28 years ago, and I could still be forgive him. But choosing not to reconcile with him. Maybe he's not trustworthy, or maybe he wasn't showing true godly repentance. Maybe he was continuing in his sin. And some people may say, Well, you know, Matthew 18, you know, 70 times seven, we're called to forgive, I don't see that as a repetition of the same sin over and over and over again, I see that as what I did with Michael ware, it was a process of forgiving him over and over and over again, for the very same thing, because it just hit me and hurt me in different ways long after it happened. So to answer your question, forgiveness is releasing the other person from making them pay. I'm surrendering them to God and reconciliation, is restoring a relationship with that person. Thank you for that. Julian, would you say that's the process? To any one who is in the situation that you were in 20 years ago? Would you say Would your counsel be, it will probably require forgiveness, and then prayerfully reconciliation? Yes, I see it as a two step process. I encourage people, if they are in a situation like this, which I'm sure many of your listeners are, I'm sure a lot of what I'm saying is, is resonating with them, it might be bringing up some emotional trauma for them. So the number one thing is to get some support some good healthy support. But forgiveness is a process. And I encourage people when they first find out about a sexual infidelity, a sexual secret, anything that's been hidden, that it takes about a year, just to kind of get back to homeostasis, kind of a sense of, of balance. So we encourage people not to make life changing decisions within that first year. Obviously, if there's physical abuse going on, or sexual abuse within the relationship, you know, get help, always safety first. And then secondly, that that forgiveness takes time. So forgiveness is really separate from reconciliation. There's a lot of women who can forgive their husbands, that they are not safe with their husbands. They don't trust their husbands. They've not seen the godly sorrow that leads to repentance. And so there's no context then to restore the relationship. Were there new habits that were created that helped establish trust? Yes, that's a good question. I would change the word habits to behaviors and attitudes. I think habits can we kind of have a little bit more control over them. Like maybe we have a habit of we're going to go to 12 Step, or we're going to go to counseling, and we're going to work through a program. And those are all good kind of habits to establish, we're going to put, you know, protective software on our, you know, devices, etc, things like that. When I say that, I was watching Michael Bay come a new man before my eyes, there were certain behaviors, changes in behavior, and changes in attitude. And so to understand this, there's two levels of communication, right? There's the spoken word. And then there's the felt message, okay. So somebody can say, Oh, well, don't you look nice today. And the words are really nice. But the tone and the meaning are like, wow, I'm being insulted right now. Yeah. So there's something that is a little bit more elusive. When it comes to this process of godly sorrow leads to repentance and seeing the change, because it's not just men do these 10 steps or women if you're the one who's who's acted out or, you know, had secret debt your husband didn't know about and you're coming to tell him. There's not like these 10 steps, you can just go through and you check the boxes and you're good. You know, Jesus said, If you clean the inside of the cup, then the outside will be clean as well. And really, the transformation that I'm talking about is really an In Word, experience, so Michael was inwardly being renewed, and that resulted or showed and his behavior and attitude towards me. So he pursued me, he was winning me, he was committed to telling the truth. And his whole, like when he said, he was sorry, it was more than just, I'm sorry, get over it. It was this weeping sense of, oh, my gosh, I've hurt the person I love most. And he was so committed to bringing everything into the light. And he did all of the 12 step things and counseling, and, you know, but there was this internal, being renewed and made new. That was really what won me over and what has restored our marriage. And really, I think what's allowed us to continue to be married as both of us being committed to our own continued healing and growth. You know, think about salvation can happen in a moment, you know, but sanctification is a lifetime process, where you have both been committed to sanctification to our ongoing growth and healing and redemption and working out our salvation, with fear and trembling. And I think it's so wonderful bill, I haven't told you this. But this is airing on forgiveness day, June 29. And on June 29, Michael and I will be celebrating 31 years of marriage. And that is just a beautiful testimony of what can happen when two people are willing to forgive one another, look at their own sins, and, and form for us you very uniquely, for my husband to really change how he was doing life. And it has been doing life for the past 28 years, in radically different ways. And he continues to do that. He's not perfect, I'm not perfect. And but we wouldn't be married today without mutual forgiveness and an ongoing commitment to doing our own work. Okay, that is that is blowing my mind just a little Rosie and I are looking at each other like, Oh, come on. I mean, because really, six weeks ago, when we're talking about forgiveness, maybe two months ago, I wanted Julian CUSEC, on the show on forgive to stay. And it turns out, this is the day, wow. I know. Isn't that amazing? And during that time, you know, three years in 28 years ago, and 1991 I remember just praying God, please don't waste my tears, don't waste my pain. And I give all the glory and honor to him. You know, he's happy about all of this, he's showing off for you and Rosie and all of your listeners, because he knew he's the one who planted me in your heart and your mind to speak with you today. And, and it's it's a joy, I mean, our our marriage has become far more than I ever could have dreamed or imagined. It has not been easy, we have issues. None of them have to do with sexual acting out anymore. That is behind us. 28 years in the past, my husband has been faithful ever since that day. And I am so proud of him, and for what he's overcome and how he's dealt with the really the hurt and pain that really drove a lot of those behaviors. And that had, you know, given me a chance to really come alongside with tenderness and, and grace and support him. But that again, that didn't come at the beginning. That was several years, several years after the D Day. Julie and I got a couple more questions. I will try to work these into our remaining time. Talk about your continued healing and maybe address it to the person who's no longer married and who might be quietly suffering and living in a kind of pain that they don't know what to do with. Yeah, wow. Gosh, my heart really goes out to those and I think there are women. There's two categories of women who that come to mind about being in pain when it comes to sexual betrayal. One is the wife who has stayed and that it continues to go on. It's like a slow bleed. And it really starts to wear away her level of her value her worth in herself. Her self esteem are can anyway and many of the situations I've seen where it's been ongoing so my heart goes out to that person. And to that person I would say you're not alone and you don't have to Be alone. And I encourage a good therapist. And for many years bill, I was meeting with people as a lay person, because I, they knew my story. And I said, Look, I'm not, I'm not a therapist, they're like, We don't care, we want to meet with you, because you've been through this. And you're on the other side, which really, people I'm just humbled me that people would put so much faith and trust in me. Since then, yes, I am now professionally trained and specialized in this area. So find somebody, you know, 12 Step, a good counselor, to help work on the impact on yourself. And then the other category that comes to mind is the woman to their husband was not repentant, their marriage was not restored. Maybe he had an affair and laughed. Maybe the, you know, there was not that repentance. That could lead to reconciliation. And now she finds herself divorced alone. Maybe he's off and remarried or with a girlfriend, and she's still raising children. And it's, she's having to live the aftermath. And I would say, you're not alone, either. And I see your pain and feel your pain. And it's not your fault. And I'm sorry, you're sorry that this is where you're at in life right now. And I would say to that woman, again, get support. And I apologize on behalf of the church that has not treated our divorced women kindly. We've treated divorce as if somebody you know, is walking around with the scarlet letter, in this case, the big D for divorce. They don't think we really understand that God created divorce as a grace, not as a judgment or a punishment. I only have two minutes left, Julianne, and I've got 17 more questions. So I don't know how I'm going to do this. Do you have advice? For those whose spouse is not forthcoming? I would say caution. And warning proceed with caution when when spouses are not forthcoming, and there's a commitment to keeping things hidden in the darkness. And secrecy. That is reason for concern. Yeah, yeah. And amazing. Not a good sign. Yeah, amazing what God's done in your life and in Michael's life, in the powerful ministry you have and many, many, many lives that have been changed as a result of your work and Michael's work. It's unbelievable. I'm humbled by it every day, Bill, I am too. And thank you so much for the honor to be with you today. And just blessings on you and your ministry there at Faith. Really appreciate you guys. Thank you so much. It's really meant a lot to me and to Rosie and to my listeners. For you to share your story on forgiveness day. It's been great having you on Julian. So thank you for listening to another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. What we're all about is helping couples and individuals get unstuck. You know how some people go to counseling or marriage therapy for months or even years and never really get anywhere. Our intensive programs help clients get unstuck in as little as two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com