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Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. Today we're featuring one of my top five conversations from the restoring the soul archives. Morgan Schneider joins Michael today to discuss his very important book, becoming a king. As you will soon hear, Michael said the book pissed him off, it disrupted him. And then it awakened an appetite for more than it gave him hope, which is where he's at now. The book and their conversation had a similar effect on me, and it's our hope that it has a similar effect on you. Morgan is a strategist, entrepreneur, teacher, writer and speaker. And in 2010, he established become good soil and serves on the executive leadership team at Wild at Heart alongside John and Stacey Eldridge. Now, Morgan goes off the grid every chance he gets whether bow hunting in the Colorado wilderness, or choosing the adventurous life with his greatest treasures, his wife Sherry, his son, Joshua, and his daughter, Abigail. So Now without any further delay, here's your host, Michael John Cusack. Welcome to the program all of our listeners and I am talking with today a man that I care deeply about because of his heart and his journey. Morgan Snyder, welcome to the podcast. I go, thank you so much. It's truly good to be with the lighthearted my heart's going back to when you were in my office, and we got to connect over a few hours just swapping stories of the kingdom from different battle fronts in the same mission. And so, Boy, I've done a lot of interviews, a lot of podcasts, but it is a tree is a true honor and privilege to be with the light hearted and to try to offer some love to your tribe. I really appreciate that. And I know you will, you have a brand new book out called Becoming a king the path to restoring the heart of a man. And that's a topic that has been near and dear to my heart. And I've been about that for the last 2530 years. I want you to or I would I would be honored if you read the introduction to the first chapter of your book. But as you write this, people will find out that this book is not an academic treatise on here's, you know, stuff that you should know about man or here's how men can get fixed, but it's really deeply personal from your own journey. And it's a journey that you've lived. So would you do the honor of reading that section to open up chapter one? Yeah, thank you, Michael, I would be honored. Do you remember your first taste of power, I can still hear the blades engaging on our 1976 Cub Cadet riding mower. I was eight years old. And after I rode on his lap a few times, my dad put me behind the wheel. I distinctly remember taking that throttle. For the first time as my dad stepped aside and turned me loose. I was given rule and dominion over a half an acre lawn that hug the strip of Western Pennsylvania Woods than I loved it. For the first time I felt the masculine surge of a sort of fierce mastery over a domain. Even now several decades later, the smell of freshly cut grass takes my soul back to that moment of being entrusted with power. What have you done with the desire to be powerful? Here's the unapologetic premise of this book. The desire to be powerful, to lead to care for to bring goodness to a man's realm is central to the soul. The storyline of what we do with power is the path to recovering the depth and breadth of what God meant when He made you and me. Well, it expresses itself in infinite ways this desire to be powerful is common to us all. It's in our design. Regardless of what we look like where we come from, and what we do for work. All of us can identify with this desire uniquely expressed in our lives. Think of what you longed to have spoken about your life in your eulogy. What if among stories of shared adventure and intimate relationships, the people close says to you were able to speak words like these. He lived and led with wisdom, vulnerability, and courage. He shaped the world for good and left a lasting legacy. He loved well, and loved deeply from a sincere heart. And he finished strong. Thank you for reading that beautiful words. And I think it sets the tone for the rest of the book and for your heart and your journey. So I want to start with your premise is that the desire to be powerful is central to the soul. But we live in a culture today, where, especially for men is there's conversation about toxic masculinity, and the very real damage that men have done by the misuse of power. I think a lot of people, including men that I know, and even myself at times, how legitimate is power? Isn't there something about that, that it's not okay, so why should this idea of power be a category for men? Yeah, Michael, I really appreciate that question. It's central. And it's vital. And there is a core question of the legitimacy of power. You know, earlier in preparation for our time, I went on Google, and I just searched the news. And I looked at the top 10 stories for today. And the majority of the stories were around this central theme is it was the MIS handling of power, entrusted to men. And you just pause there and just think that's the reality in which we live, as you articulated? Well, there has been terrible harm done in places in the name of masculine power. And let me just talk more frankly, I have done harm in the place of masculine power. And it brings up a dilemma. But as we recover the ancient path, and as we explore the text of reality, as we recover design, what we find is that what's at the base, you know, what Parker Palmer says is there is a river of life below the ice, only what is visible in winter, there's a river of life. And that river of life is designed that I believe fundamentally, the most important thing we can know about any human being is that they bear the image of God that a Mago day as men and as women. And so masculine power is meant for good. It's intended to be good when it's wholehearted, and in the service of love, but here's the dilemma. Dallas Willard articulates it so well. And I unpack it in becoming a king, where he says the primary work of God is finding men and women in whom he can entrust His power. The story of most men is being entrusted with power, and it bringing harm to themselves, and those under their care. That causes me pause that's sober. And yet, it also begs a curiosity, how can we move towards restoration, to see that power restored, made whole and available in the service of love, rather than simply trying to, to destroy it? Because when we destroy it, we actually cut off the power of God intended to bring the restoration of all things. And you write this question in what you just read, what have you done with a desire to be powerful? And we've both seen in our own lives and in the work and ministry that we do all the different kinds of tributaries for what we do with power, but what are the common ways that men respond with this desire? Because I would, I would imagine that it includes not having desire for power and just living castrated or living impotent. Yeah, it's fascinating. You can see the themes like right there are these generalities. You see caricatures. And often, when that power is an initiated when it's in service of what you could name the inner child or the boy, within the man, often, it comes in the form of aggression. You see it played out of power over people rather than the power to serve and come under. A Jesus modeled the life of a son well, where he led and with the heart of a servant, and he served with the heart of a king and it's the opposite of what we often see. So you see this power over to rule to dominate, to use people and things out of a reaching to get my question answered right off. Find that validation. And so often we look to use people to build to build a name for ourselves to build something, to get something going to make a little money, it's a power over, or the opposite, right? As you named, it's usually avoidance of power where we are ambivalent. And so rather than exercising power, in a true authenticity, in a true vulnerability and courage, where we don't know the outcomes, where there are things we cannot control, where we're taking genuine risks, we, you know, abdicate power, we release responsibility, we settle. I love Bearnaise term for engineering, smallness, whatever it is, we do, even if it looks big on the external landscape, we settle for engineering, a small life, something that feels like we can arrange for safety, and security, and manage a small story where it requires us to never change. And so if we take these extremes, either the abuse of power by this false aggression, or the lack of loving power by this false abdication, and instead we say, what is true power, where we risk offering strength, always with a posture of curiosity, of the questions, where do I need to grow? How do I need to learn? And ultimately, how do I offer power that's actually not autonomous. But it's living in union with God literally living out of a response to a God initiated world a father centered view of reality. That's so good. As people are hearing this conversation about power, they might be thinking power is being a best selling author making a lot of money, being famous having a quote, platform, but what you just read, and what the book starts out with is the power that you felt as an eight year old boy riding the lawnmower. And your dad had entrusted that to you. So talk about how sometimes, even in light of the engineering smallness, reality how power, real power can actually be obscure, and not felt in that way that we think about, like in terms of, you know, global repercussions? Yes, right, because we're talking about design. In other words, it's literally our nature, it's our essence. You know, one one wise author said that the fish is the last one to discover water. Right, because it's literally a fish's reality. And so, I'll give an example. Yesterday was my son, Joshua, and my daughter, Abigail, their first day of school, my son turned 16, a few months ago, and my daughter turned 13. And for 11 years, the beginning of school met carpool. We go to a small school in Colorado Springs, and there's no buses, and we drive the kids to school. And here were mom and dad, getting the kids ready for school. And literally everything in my body is ready to go take them to school, but my son's driving now and he has a car that he, you know, earn the money during COVID Landscaping The neighbor's house to buy, and my daughter and my son are getting into their own vehicle and driving away and my wife and I are in the driveway with such mixed emotions. And one of them is a sadness, because my son now has this increased kingdom. That is to say like, we all have a kingdom Michael, every man and every woman. We are kings and queens, we have a realm entrusted to our care. We have an area where we have say, Dallas Willard says it's where what we want done is done. And so my son chose during COVID to use his time to mow lawns to make money to drive a car. And when he turned 16, we had a key ceremony where I passed them the keys were it was a it was a significant expansion in his power in his kingdom. And I felt sadness because I knew his kingdom was expanding beyond that, which I could control as that. And when I think about when I was given the keys to a card 16 I was so ill equipped. I was so uninitiated. And so I felt this sadness of how big his kingdom has become. And at the same time, we had joy because our son is actually on time. He's ready for this challenge. And he's blessed to do it. And we've told him you have room to fail. You have room to make steaks let's learn this together. But son, you're ready for this. This is on time and we celebrate you. And so here we are with the sadness but also with the celebration and share I just broke out into this wild dance right in the midst of suburbia. And I couldn't even name the dance because we were so sad to watch them grow up. And at the same time, I think the celebration was, here's a young man being entrusted with increasing power and go, it's risky, he's ready to bring a greater good and a greater love to the world through that power. What a great personal example of that so close to home. I didn't share this phrase with you. But this is a maybe a backhanded compliment that becoming a king really pissed me off, as I read it. And that was, that was the starting place. But then it started to awaken my appetite as it disrupted me. And I think I finished it with a sense of hope. But would you go ahead and I sent you an email earlier today in real time, there's a story you want to you want to share a story about the Gerber knife, you don't have to read that, but just refer to it and then that'll be great. It's such a joy bomb. This is where you know, just to your listeners, what I so appreciate Michael about your life is its total authenticity, like you are who you are on mic and off in counseling in in your home. And that's my experience of you that, you know, one mentor said that the goal is to be authentic with everybody transparent with some an intimate with even fewer. And I've held that tightly to say how can I be authentic through and through and that's my experience of you. And so you sent this email this morning, and I just laughed with joy. And you said, really looking forward to connecting with you today. I thought becoming a king would be a good read and helpful to minister to others. However, the father had other plans, your amazing book pissed me off, and then it disrupted me. And then it awakened an appetite for more. And then it gave me hope, which is where I'm at now. And I smile as I took this picture below only a few minutes ago. And so picture of your Gerber knife, it said I've had this thing Gerber knife in my drawer at work as if that's where it's useful. And I don't even know how to close the darn thing. I'm not leaving my office today before I figure out how to close it, to put it in my pocket and to carry it around as a first step towards what the father is doing. Yeah, I sent that off because this is what your your book disrupted in me is I just turned 56 years old and I'm I'm successful. I think I'm a king in certain ways in terms of the ministry and the platform that God's given me in the inner healing and restoration of my life. And yet I grew up in an urban area. I got kicked out of Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts, I forget where I I have moderate levels of anxiety when I'm around sleeping bags, backpacks and hatchets. And so I've been the guy who you know, I read wild heart, I said great, you know, that's not me. And there's been a detachment from this fierce, masculine self like, Well, why would I want to carry a knife that's for rednecks? Or, or that's for guys that are really good at fixing things? And I'm not. So as you talked in this chapter. And frankly, this was the most powerful chapter for me where you talk about becoming a generalist. Can you talk about this idea of what is a generalist? Why it is that this is so important for a man to get his heart back? Yeah, boy, we could go a long time on this because this This is gold, I want to capture a few words that you just shared, reflect them back because just to be named, it's so easy to create masculine caricatures, that actually are false safety, like have a sense of false security away from the true thing, true and holy masculinity that's embodied in the Trinity and bestowed upon us and so I want to be really careful with false comparison and these caricatures, I grew up wearing argyle socks, playing golf in suburbia, and so if there were any men I was most scared of you said moderate anxiety. I would say I had a heavy elbow severe anxiety around a man's man like the macho outdoors tools and weapons. I remember going to hunter safety with a buddies whose dad was leading it Brasco, he was a cop and and they showed the shotgun that just blew up from the inside out because the muzzle got clogged with dirt and I just remember being terrified saying I could never handle a gun and so I just want to name I don't come from this World of Rambo have initiated in the wild since the since my birth. You know, I worked at Jiffy Lube and in my in my manager said, Some people were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. I was born with a wrench. I just loved it going, Oh man, what have I got myself into. So I just want to name men who are listening, women who are listening who love them, you're in good hands. We're not promoting a caricature, what we're trying to do is recover design. And so you use this word detachment, which I think is really important. I think another way to say is disassociation. But what I want to sub substitute in there is the word atrophy. Because what I believe is that there is a basis that God meant when he meant every man, it's universal. And it's what we all share in common. And it's the foundation of a wholehearted, mature man, on which I believe God creates the best work builds the best house for the unique man that God intended for each of us to bring to the world that unique gifting that unique expression of God that that craftsman specialist that we might name it. And so here's what I mean, it's been said that often the best thing for the inside of a man is the outside of a horse. No, it's been said, Never trust a man who can't dance. It's been said that there's a man that feels powerful in the boardroom. He feels powerful on the golf course. He feels powerful at a fancy meal, and then his car breaks down. And then he feels six years old. And then the tow truck driver shows up and asks him the most terrifying question that a tow truck and drive driver can ask when the hood is open. And he says, What do you think's wrong with it? And the guy feels six, and he's freaking out going, oh my gosh, I don't know what the hell's wrong with it. What what's wrong with it is it's broken, it was working. And now it's not working. And I don't know what to do. I'm scared, and I'm exposed. And then there's the other man who was born with a wrench in his mouth who can handle a tool can handle a weapon, but you put him at the country club. You put him at the Broadmoor at the five star resort with a four star meal. There are four wine glasses, there are three forks, what are you supposed to do with three forks at a meal? All of a sudden he feels 12 He has no idea what to do. So Michael, we have these two examples of a man that finds himself uncomfortable, that finds himself afraid, uncertain, uninitiated fearful in the company of other men. And so the question is, where do you feel? uninitiated? Where do you feel like you are lacking where you are disqualified in the company of men. And this word that you used of detachment, I'm now substituting atrophy that what if, like, a muscle that's around the broken bone, where the muscle has atrophied under the cast, even as the bone has healed, when the cast comes off, that muscle must be nourished, it must be tended to it must be exercised to increase its strength so that it can become whole and useful. What if God is after the whole of a man this entire foundation of what he meant by masculinity, and it's from this foundation of becoming a generalist that God can build the unique expression of what he meant individually by that man to bring to the world. And if a man is not moving into that wholeness, then his brokenness is going to spill out somewhere. And that's where we see power misused and abused or abdicated exactly right, because we tend to go towards places where we feel strong, right places where we feel a competency, and in the culture in which we live a very unique time in human history. specialization is highly rewarded. So there were times in history where just by nature of society, we had to be more of a generalist, you had to know how to use a tool. You had to know how to read a content to learn and to use a weapon. But Gone are those days and we live in a place where everything is been boiled down to the lowest common denominator of utility and we use money as a means of exchange. But the thing is, when a man knows how to fix a broken mower, and knows how to fix a broken heart, he learns to not just avoid the places where he lacks competency. But in any situation, right, like Paul says, in his maturity, he says, now that I've learned the seek secret, I can make it through anything. In the one who makes me who I am, he's a man who's become Initiated, become wholehearted, and has learned to walk in true masculinity in union with God. Wow. So you contrast the generalist with the experts, the specialist, and then you talk about outsourcing versus sole sourcing, and I can relate to this. And here again, is where it was so disruptive, because I have said probably 500 times as a joke, but it's really not a joke, that my wife and I don't do marriage counseling anymore, I just hire a handyman. And it's because I have a hard time hanging the towel bar, because I just keep putting 20 holes in the wall until it's in the right place. And recently, I started a project about a month ago, hanging some shelves in my garage, here's this initiation sense of I'm going to make this happen. And I got about a third way into it. And I just went, nope, this is just not going to work. And I gave up. And then in anticipation of this interview, last night, I said, I'm going to cut the wood, I'm going to attach it to the wall. And I'm going to figure it out after the interview, but I'm going to make it happen. Yes. And something felt really alive and strong in me that felt like that atrophied muscle was given a workout. And it didn't feel like you know, could win a competition yet. But it felt so good. Like I was getting part of my heart back. And so Michael, just reflecting back, first of all, well done, like you just modeled what it looks like to move towards that place where you feel fearful or inadequate, or, you know, lacking competency, because you're now in your late 50s, you have the maturity in certain areas where you could run on that, and all your life, right? But But what happens is you recovered a new part of your masculine soul. And what's important about this, is we can actually be really unkind to the boy inside. Because what I want to name is in sadness of where was the man that was meant to say to you as a young boy, Hey, son, come with me. Let me show you how to hang these shelves. Let me show you how to work with the grain of a wood. Let me show you how to use a tool. We're not meant to be experts overnight that masculinity is a process of initiation. And so what's so important is what's at stake in a situation like the shelves is how will you handle the boy inside the man. And so for example, I was a young married guy, and we needed to have our house was so hot, we couldn't afford air conditioning, we needed to do an all house attic fan, which I heard would help. And I was just in this process of recovering parts of the generalists were I wanted to do it myself, like your shelves, but I knew I didn't have the competency. I found a handyman, and I called him up and I said, I've got a strange question. I will pay you full price to do this job, if you will allow me to shadow you, because I want to learn how you do it. And he said, well, that's kind of different. No one's ever asked me that before, right? And his name was skip. And he was this ornery retired Marine. And he was so much with the boy in me needed in an uncle and a father. And about after two days, he goes, you know, he goes, You do it like you're smart. And I thought that was a compliment. But I knew there was something below and he goes, You know what you need? You need to do it more like you're stupid. Not like you're smart. Michael, all my life I got rewarded for being really, really smart. And here's a guy saying your Smart is in the way right now for what you need from your father. And so do it stupid. In other words, do it intuitively. Do it like it's practice, do it like the stakes are low, enjoy the process. Knock off early and crack open a cold one and look at what you did and celebrate. So this brings up the issue and so many of your chapters are you know, they just got really great headings of be the man that you were born to be but this this brings up if I step out from behind the mask of I can't build shelves and I might be less gifted at this than somebody more naturally but I can't and do it. And if I tell myself that truth, I'm actually stepping from my false self into my true self. And so this idea of the false self, that's really a lie. Same, same more by what you mean by it's a lie. Yeah. When I think about building the shelves in my garage, shame comes up. Yes. Number one is I've tried to build stuff before and it doesn't work. Number two, I don't follow through on things. Number three, I'm looking at the other wall in the garage, where there's 20 holes from where I tried to hit something, and didn't find the stud. And so the full self can be performing. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna be somebody I'm not. But it can also be living in the lie of I don't have what it takes. Yes. And there's something underneath that that we need to access. Just comment for a minute on the on the true versus false self? Yeah, it's so good. I think where I would describe, you know, John, my mentor, one of my mentors, describes, the false self is an elaborate fig leaf, right? It's where we hide, to avoid shame and fear. I think one way I'd say it, it's, it's what we do to make life work. Apart from God, right, and we have become very mature. In our false self, we have become very sophisticated. But as Thomas Keating says, the sorrow of the false self is exhaustive. Because it's never enough. It's always about the next thing. It's like a bicycle wheel. That's only stable when it's spinning. But as soon as it slows down, it loses its center of gravity, because its center of gravity itself. Whereas the true self, the center of gravity is God. We weren't designed to live independently in the western world view, among many things, is so steeped in this fierce independence, even just think about how we look at Jesus. If we pause, and say whatever else we see, in Him, we see this independent, wholehearted human being that's perfect, but Jesus doesn't describe himself as independent. He says, Nothing I do, I do apart from my father, when you see me you see the Father, He speaks of an utter dependency, like we've never seen in humanity, its strength through dependency. And so to recover the true self is to first become aware of the false self. Where do I feel shame? And where do I feel fear? And what is that bringing up? And what do I need to do in kindness, to move towards those fears, to live in a way where God has to show up, where I come to know truly, who God is not as I've learned him to be, and who I am? Not, as I've learned myself to be, you make the statement more again, we must risk venturing through the narrow gate of becoming. And when a Christian man hears that, first of all, I think we hear that idea from Jesus about the narrow gate as evangelistic and he's actually talking to the disciples. So it's more of a follow me kind of thing. Yes. And secondly, it's not a religious thing. We're talking about venturing in risking this through this narrow gate as me engaging with my shelf. So that that's part of my following Christ and my spiritual formation. And one of the things I love about you and the ministry that you've been a part of is that there's not this disconnection, from life, from relationships from the difficult things. But that following Jesus is going deeper into those realities. So talk about in the book, you obviously give the path and multiple chapters on how the man's heart gets restored? Yes, but what does it look like to walk through this narrow gate? And ultimately, how do we go from having that appetite and desire for power that is stewarded well living as a beloved son, discovering our true heart? How do we get to that place of wholeness? Oh, boy, you're tapping into gold here. And there are several directions we could go with this. I think what's on my heart for this moment for our listeners is Ken Hal, Sir, one of my mentors says we could we can see God in everything. And we can miss him in anything. You know, when Jesus began His ministry, there was no writing, there was no access to the Scriptures. For the average person. It wasn't how we hear teaching of take extensive notes and go get a degree. It was life on life, he enticed and disrupted and pulled the string that began to unravel the false in human beings, and allow them to find their hope in the living God. It has to be real, it has to be accessible. It has to be in our ordinary, everyday life. And so when I I would suggest is that it has to begin with this question of what is my frontier? What is the edge of my masculine initiation? What is the next piece? God is after, in my apprenticeship. You know, Lewis said that heaven is meant to be the consummation of our earthly apprenticeship, that we're all unfinished me, the greatest among them in my unfinished places, there is so much at work, I'm on a road trip, and I had to pause, pull over and simply call my wife to say, I'm sorry, I was wrong for our interaction yesterday, will you forgive me. And so what I would suggest is that narrow gate is the farthest thing from religion, I believe it's very instructive, where it says, whatever it is we're facing, there is a wide road, there is the majority direction, there's the pool and the magnetic field. And then there's a path that we know the fruit is what we're after the fruit lines with the Gospels, fruit, it's available to all and I believe that at every moment, that's where it gets so utterly personal. That's why it's your shelves in your garage in this moment, or it's your knife that you're learning how to wield and to use on real things, and might begin with opening an Amazon box, or cutting cellophane off of a steak from the grocery. But every moment in every day, the father is initiating a doorway that has a handle only on one side that we can choose to respond to his initiative and say, I will follow you. I'm willing to risk I'm willing to be curious, I'm willing to ask questions. Because I want my whole heart back as a man, I want my entire soul restored. And I want to become the kind of man, the kind of king that you got are glad to entrust the care of your kingdom. It starts here in this very human moment. And it's often just a one degree shift back towards life. Oh, man, that is that is so good. So good that God uses all of our life he uses our life, to give us our heart back is our life intersects with his? Yeah, it's so true. And that's where you know, even in this, we live in a content saturated culture, we binge on these podcasts, we want more information and, and more is often not helpful. And so even for our listeners, I just want to invite them today. Just take a breath, just pause. And I invite you to be curious. The Holy Spirit is a teacher and a kind guide. The father is at the center of all things. And Jesus offers all surpassing power, God acting through His death, resurrection ascension to make it possible for us to begin, as Saint Francis says to do simply what is necessary, so that then in time, we can find ourselves doing what's possible. And in time and over time, suddenly, we will find ourselves doing what's impossible. And so to our friends, I just want to say pause and say what's necessary today. What is God speaking through Michael's story, or through me, where God's saying, I want to show you something, I have a gift for you. And I have an invitation for you. Here's what's next. Do you want to come with me? I love it. Morgan. We are out of time. But I you've got a standing invitation anytime to come back on. And I would love to unpack some of the other chapters in your book. But I'm so so thankful for your new book, becoming a king. I cannot commend it high enough to the people that are going to be listening to the podcasts. And I really want to say thank you, because you've been on the journey. But you also did the grueling labor that I know what it's like to get this onto paper and to put it out there in a book. So thank you and bless you for your life and your sharing. Thanks, Michael, you know from different fronts of the same war. We're light hearted fellow adventurers and of the soul and pilgrims going after the restoration of our hearts and the hearts of others. So it is an honor to be with you. It's truly a sincere joy. And thanks for taking the time. So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut, you're in our intent have counseling programs in Colorado allow you to experience deep change and half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com. That's restoring the soul.com