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Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty, thank you for listening. The Christian faith is not only about belief and practices, it's also about the kind of people that we become. Yet some of the biggest barriers to our transformation come from our toxic self narratives. These narratives shaped the way we see ourselves and the way we interact in the world. A God designed us with a deep longing in our souls to be wanted, loved, alive and connected to him. Healing our souls requires more than knowing what God thinks about us. Our healing comes not through reason alone, but through Revelation. Now, this short paragraph was an excerpt from James Bryan Smith's brand new book, The good and beautiful you. Jim's a good friend of restoring the soul, and is Michael's guest today on the podcast. If you don't know him, Dr. James Brian Smith is the Dallas Willard professor of Christian spiritual formation at Friends University in Wichita, Kansas. He's also the executive director of The Apprentice Institute for Christian spiritual formation, and the best selling author of 12 books, most notably the apprentice series, which includes the good and beautiful God. Finally, among other things, James is the host of the things above podcast. Now we've provided links in the show notes to everything I've just mentioned. And we're so glad to have Jim back with us today. So Now without any further delay, here's your host, Michael JOHN CUSICK. Well, Jim Smith, James Brian Smith, friend, colleague and Guru of spiritual formation. Welcome back to I've lost count of how many times you've been on the program. But I'm thrilled that we can be here today to talk about your newest book, The good and beautiful you discovering the person Jesus created you to be? Yes. Well, yes, thank you. It's wonderful to be with you, Michael, always in any setting, no matter what it is. Any MJC time as I call it is a blessing to me. So but I want to start this interview by asking you a question. What's it like to have a book that is dedicated to you that you are on the dedication page? That's not happened to me ever? So? I mean, is that weird? Is it cool? I don't know. It's humbling, actually. And when you told me that that was going to happen. I actually thought you were kidding for a minute. But but but I don't think you'd be that that cruel like to say, Hey, you're invited to my birthday party. Just kidding. I'm really humbled because you also dedicated it to Dallas Willard and Richard Foster, and to be in any way included on the same page. But I'm grateful. I'm grateful, because you included in the book, some of the story for why you dedicated it to me and how it actually helped lead to the topic of coming to think about the importance of how God sees us. So all the more honored that that this conversation is happening around this book, and I thank you for dedicating the book to me, it was very, very special. And no, that's not not happened to me before. And I don't think that it ever will happen again. Well, you never know. But no, it? Absolutely. I mean, you you played such a crucial role in my journey. And I've said to people, I couldn't have written this book, if it weren't for the friendship that we've developed in my time with you. That was a part of the journey. You know, I think a lot Michael, about Kingdom synchronicity, and how God takes us into situations and I was at a place where I needed to talk with someone about the condition of my soul. It was such an interesting journey of finding you. And I'll never forget that first conversation we had over the phone. And from that moment on, it became such a gift to for me, to come to restoring the soul to have a week with you. That was a breakthrough in my life, to see what my soul was really all about. And so that's the through line of this whole book is the soul that our soul has incredible needs. 10 fundamental needs it can't avoid. And Jesus is the answer to all those needs. But I needed that time with you in order to write this book. So I had to dedicate it to you. It was just, you know, obvious. Well, again, thank you. And it's very humbling. So I have a question. You are James Brian Smith, and you've written a whole bunch of books, I know, close to, if not over a dozen books, maybe more than that. And they are, they are substantial books, they have substance to them. And many people listening might think, well, first of all, how could he need to address the condition of his soul? But I'm also curious what you meant by the condition of your soul? Because I think it was John Ortberg, who wrote in his book soul keeping that when Jesus says, what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul that Jesus is not talking about? The destination of our soul? Like where we're going to go after we die, but more the condition of our soul? So that probably is a great question to start with. And then I want to specifically talk about the book without going into too much detail, because that was obviously a private time, what was the condition of your soul that you needed to call me up and say, I want to come and spend a week together? Well, oddly, it was success. That is a very strange thing to say. Because normally, we think that in failure loss struggle, are the things that lead us to seek help. And that is often the case. But in my case, it was things had gone really, really well. And one of the problems of success is that you take your eyes off what's really important. And so I spent a number of years, I would say, not keeping my eyes on that which is most important, which is the care of our soul. And I had done that throughout my journey. But there came a point where I was more focused on trying to do God's work, and to make a ministry succeed. And my mind just shifted away from those things that were so fundamental. And I found myself in a place where I had lost my joy. And my wife was, as as often as the case, it's those who are closest to us see it even better than we can. And she was saying, Well, you've you've really lost your smile, you've lost your sense of joy for the things that you're doing. And that's what it was, it was, and I know, we have mutual friend, William Paul, young, author of The Shack, and he, he helped me understand that because he said, Success actually is much more difficult for for the soul than, than failure. Because when we struggle, we tend to turn to God. When we succeed, we tend to turn away and think, Well, I've got this all by myself. And so that was, that was what it was, for me. I had to get back to the basics. It's interesting that you talked about the absence of joy, Jim, because most of us think about the condition our soul, like if something bad happens if we do something bad, but it was more the absence of joy. And I just think that's a tremendous indicator for the condition of our soul. You know, if we were to ask the question, How is it with your soul as the early Methodists used to do in a greeting? That, where's your joy? How much joy Do you have? Because joy is really the fruit of the inner life isn't joy, right? Absolutely. Yeah. All of those things there that are so fundamental to soul wellness, and they were missing for me. And yet outwardly, you say, well, man thing, things are going really well for Jim. I mean, the ministry is growing rapidly, all everything you could want and say that was it. And I think that's what Jesus was saying in the verse you quoted. Because, you know, he tells the story of the the rich man who built more and more barns, like I have to build more barns to take, hold all my stuff, and then he dies. And then it's like, you know, what profit is it if you've gained all this stuff, but you lose your soul, because the most important thing about a person is our soul. It is the center of who we are. And, and Jesus knew it. And he knew that we're so prone to think that success in that in the world's terms, is what really matters. But how many? How many people? Do we have to see who get that and fail it? Hi. I've just been listening to Matthew Perry's memoir about his addiction and his, I mean, this guy was making a million dollars in episode on friends and his life was his inner life was dead. And he had profound encounters with God. And I mean, you just says story after story. And you think, wow, what's it going to take for us to learn the lesson that that these kinds of successes don't matter? Will you talk a little bit and I I'd be remiss to not have you do this and, quote, just talk about your book in terms of the content but it's all framed around this when you're referring to the soul? What do you mean by soul the most important part of who we are? Yeah, well, the soul is is that which animates and integrates our life. It's the thing that runs the whole system, everything comes together. And so the soul is right at the center. Its, its essence is is spiritual. So it's not something I can slice into a person and find like, oh, there's your soul, right by your spleen, there it is. It's it's non physical, it's spiritual. But it's that dimension of the human person that organizes everything, integrates everything, and brings all of us together. It's it connects my body, to my mind to my feelings, my emotions, my experiences, my memories, everything is attached. And so the soul is this fundamental thing. That is the most crucial thing about us. And yet, it's the thing we most easily neglect. Yeah, except when you listen to music, if there's a mute the word soul is all in our music. It's, it's in our language, you talk about soul mates and soul music and soul food. It's everywhere. But people don't really know what it is. How do you define it, Michael? I mean, restoring the soul. I mean, you are the man? Yeah, I would I would agree with everything you said. And John Ortberg talk that he gave at the most recent apprentice gathering in September, was all about the soul. And he talked about that the message of Mark seven, I think it is where Jesus has the passage and in other Gospels about what will the Prophet if you lose your soul, I try to define it simply in a little bit of a blurb. And that is the Hebrew aspect of mind, body, emotions in our will, integrated with our spirit, in that it is spirit. But I think the most helpful thing that I've learned about it is that the Hebrew idea of soul as opposed to Greek includes the body that we are embodied souls, and therefore the importance to attend to our body. So with that, as the foundation, you wrote, The good and beautiful you as the force, and I think you said final book, but we'll wait to see in your series, the good and beautiful series, and the first one started out with a good and beautiful God, talk about why you started writing the good and beautiful God, because there was a reason behind that. I was trying to write a curriculum for Christ's likeness, based on Dallas Willards ninth chapter, the divine conspiracy, where Dallas says, If you're going to create a curriculum for Christ's likeness, like some method or plan to move people into Christ's likeness, here's what you do. But Dallas never wrote that curriculum himself. He, he asked him, so when are you gonna write the curriculum? You outlined in chapter nine? He said, I'm a philosopher. I don't write those kinds of things. He said, But you do, Jim, and which is true, I did I, I've written those things for renovar and other resources. So I set out to try to write a curriculum for Christ's likeness. And I failed, it failed several times. And the reason was, Michael, I was focusing on the practice of the disciplines. The Disciplines of spiritual disciplines had been so important in my journey, I thought, well, if you just get people to pray and worship and fast and steady and meditate, they'll just get better, or more Christ like and it didn't happen. And I was field testing it with actual people over the course of a year. And as I listened to them talk, I discovered something really crucial. And that is people had really bad God narratives. Their narratives were toxic, really, that God was this angry judge who wanted to punish them for their smallest infraction, or God was some distant deity that didn't really care or wasn't near us. And so I started to hear that and I thought, wow, the the God that Jesus reveals to us, is not something that most Christians really know. So that's when I went back a second time writing the curriculum, and included the good, beautiful God. And boy, was it the missing piece? Because the good beautiful God has been a huge seller and churches have used it for now over 13 years. And I think that the reason is, is because it's helping people repair something fundamental, which is, what do you think about God? Because as Tozer said, it's the most important thing about a person is what we think about or what comes to your mind when you think about God is the most important thing about a person. And I think we assumed that if people get enough Bible knowledge, and if they hear enough, quote, accurate sermons, that they'll have that view of God that Jesus had, and yet our toxic images of God have a lot to do with our story in the narrative that we were given in how our life narrative and family of origin narrative bumps up against our narrative of God. What was the subtitle of the good and beautiful God? Because I remember it was something like loving the God that Jesus loves or knowing the God that Jesus loves. Falling in love with the God Jesus reveals. Jesus knows. Yeah, yeah. And that's the question, isn't it? What's the God that Jesus reveals if Jesus is fully God, and fully man, what does he tell us about what God is essentially Like, and there's not Well, Jesus plus all these other attributes, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And I say to my students all the time, there's only one answer to the question, what is God like? Jesus? In John 14, nine, when Philip says, What are you going to show us the Father, and Jesus says, If you've seen me, Phillip, you've seen the Father. That's a huge thing to say, if you've seen me, you've seen God. He's saying, and we learned in Hebrews that he's the exact representation of the Father in Colossians, that he's the the icon or image of the invisible God. So yeah, learning about who God is through the person of Jesus, as you said, second, remember, the Trinity is fundamental. And as people begin, it's interesting, Michael, very few people have a problem with Jesus, they find him fascinating. They find him compassionate, and loving, and powerful, and all these great things. But then God the Father, not so much. So I often say we have a Trinity Deficit Disorder, where we don't really put the Trinity like they're together. They're one they're completely united, what you say of Jesus is true. The Father, what's true, the father's True Jesus and in the spirit as well. So, yeah, it's it's it's hugely important. How we think about God narratives, as you know, as a therapist, I mean, what we what's going on in our mind is fundamental. Yes. So through your own journey, both professionally, theologically, but also personally, as you talked about, at the beginning of our conversation today, that's when you realize that there was something else that was pretty big that was standing in the way of people breaking through their toxic images of God. Yeah, well, so a friend of mine, Joe Davis had said to me, gosh, this was like, almost 10 years ago, maybe not quite. But Joe said to me, that I was missing a book in the series. And I said, Well, what is that? And he said, the good and beautiful you, you and I said, Why said because people have really toxic self narratives. And he said, good meal for God helps with those toxic God narratives, but our self narratives, he said, I see this in ministry all the time. And that's what you need to do. I knew in my gut that he was right. But I wasn't in a place to write it. And a part of the reason was, is that my own self narratives were pretty toxic. And so when I hit that place, of where the joy was gone, and I was like, why, why am I not just so elated, everything is going great in my life. But when I hit that space, the the narrative that I had inside Michael was, I'm a fraud. I'm a fake, this isn't real. Because I'm this slimy, awful sinner. And so myself narratives were so bad. So there I am with you. And we're face to face. And I share my deepest, darkest secrets, confess, I get soul naked with you. And there I am. And then your response after that is, Wow, I'm so impressed. You're such a person of integrity. You use that word? And I thought, Is Michael here? Like, did he? Has he been listening at what I just shared the brokenness, the things that I most ashamed of? And your response was, Wow, I really am impressed with your integrity. And what that did for me, it was an epiphany was you began to explain, look at look at your soul, your soul longs for wellness. That's why you're here. You're not here to impress me, or, I mean, you're here because you're desperate, really. And that's because your soul is crying out. And your soul has these incredible belongings that are so good. And here you are sharing that. And that was just so I mean, I could never have seen that coming, that that was going to be your response. But I'll huge light went on for me. And I thought, wait a minute. This is a new narrative for me. Wait, maybe instead of my narrative, the story I'm living being Jim's a fraud. He's a sham. He's not all he ought to be. When you said look at your integrity. I just went well, yeah, I guess so. I'm here like, I want beauty, goodness and truth in every aspect of my life. That's why I'm here. And that's that was like, your soul, Jim, your soul? It's a beautiful thing. Yeah, that beauty goodness and truth. It's not untrue to say that you were doing that because you wanted more of God and more of his experience in your life. You know, one of the things I've learned from Jesus from being with him and hearing his voice and Scripture and in my inmost being is how Jesus always looks below the surface. That we all know the passage in Samuel where it says that God looks at the inside and man looks at the outside but he always looks below the surface down to that level of motive and causation. And I think he does see the goodness that's there in you, you unpack some of that. But that, you know, this idea of seeking righteousness blesser those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, I've come to define righteousness as the way that things ought to be, as opposed to a whole bunch of good deeds that I'm doing, or the absence of a bunch of bad deeds. And I think that's how a lot of people think about righteousness. And we talk about self righteousness. And self righteousness would be that on my own, I've made things the way that they ought to be. But you're longing in that confession is I just longing for things to be the way that they're meant to be, and my soul can't be at rest. Until they are unless we somehow medicate it nominate, continue to go after more success, which then becomes compulsion. And that was what that was such a sacred time for me to have to bear my soul, literally, to you, and to have you listen, and then helped me re narrate the story of my life. Because there were there were parts of my life that you were able to see in a light that I didn't. So events and things that had happened to me, I narrated a certain story based on that. So and you may remember the one of the key things, and I write about this in the book is my father was like a lot of dads in his generation. He was really tough. Like he was he was quick to criticize, and rare to give praise. And so I was I had this narrative that I got only got his love when I when I was perfect and good. And did everything well. And and because I was a good athlete, I succeeded a lot in sports. And I tell the story in the in the book about how one weekend after I'd scored 51 points, 25 points on a Friday night, 26 on a Saturday night, playing basketball there in Colorado, and came in so proud that my dad was gonna give me a big hug. And instead, he was critical. And he all I want to talk about was why I missed some free throws. And I couldn't believe it. I thought, like, how am I gonna get this guy's affirmation? And what he said to me was, well, your feet were wrong, like your your feet weren't positioned, right. That's why you missed those free throws. But he didn't say anything positive. Anyway, I left and I but I narrate a story from that. Like, even when I'm the best, I can't get this guy's affirmation. But you said something profound. You said, it's amazing. Your dad was watching your feet. And I said to you, I was like, what do you what are you getting at? Michael, I don't get it. You said think about that. He was he was trying to help you. He was he was wanting you to do well. And he was watching your feet. I mean, that's it. And I thought, wow, you're right. He was loving me in a way that I couldn't see. I wanted, praise affirmation. And I remember when he said to me, he should have when you walked in after that night, he should have given you a big hug. Told you he was proud of you. Said he loved you. And then maybe later said, hey, maybe we can work on free throws or something. But he led with that. And so I narrated the story. But when you told me what your perception of it, I was able to read narrate a story, and then connect it with something later, which was toward the end of my dad's life, I actually had a heart to heart with him. And I said, Why are you so hard on me? And he said, that was my way of loving you. That's how I, I thought you could be really special and I wanted to help. That's the only way I knew how to help you. So his way of loving boy, I missed it. So but you helped me connect that? Yeah, and um, first of all, two things, Jim, thank you for sharing this, and talking about this now on this podcast in December of 2022. But thank you for writing this in the book, you didn't have to include any of your journey. I would say that most Christian books don't include a lot of self disclosure. And now that self disclosure has become a kind of currency. Publishers will say we'll be a little more self disclosing. Right. And, and in our business, so to speak, we can have canned self disclosure, that's appropriate. But you're very, very vulnerable in the book, and let me ask the question, why? I think I think a lot of it was, in my time with you, Michael, I began to not be afraid of that, too, and to recognize that, that that was the scary thing under the bed or whatever. And I don't address it. Don't think of it. Now. It's not it's not. I'm not I'm not afraid of that anymore. And I think that also, in my experience, when people are vulnerable and a transparent, it invites other people to be that way. And I've experienced that from readers already who've been reading the book and they'll say, Hey, man, thanks. for sharing that, like, like, that's, that's really encouraged me. If you felt that and had to seek some help and needed needed some support, then maybe I can reach out to. And so that's a side benefit of it's not why I did it, I was I was trying to just tell the truth of the story. Yeah. And even back to the fact that you called what you did in Colorado during your intensive confession. I love to think about what you did in the book, what I do in my writing, and speaking, which is self disclosure, as confession. But there again, so much of your writing is about reframing for people. Here's what we have believed about God. And let's reframe what we believe about God. So toxic images can be healed. Here's what we have believed about ourselves. And you illustrate that in your own life. And let's reframe that to look at what Jesus says. But I like to think about Confession, not as I'm putting all my bad stuff out there so that God can somehow be satisfied that I've sufficiently felt shame. But I'm opening myself up so that I can be known. And to be known is to be loved, and to be loved on the horizontal level is to create a greater capacity for being loved, on that vertical level with God. Because, as Kurt Thompson says, God deals with the same neural networks, that our loved ones deal with our anxieties, our stress where we carry that in our body, or reactions, or irritability, those kinds of things. And so there really is an aspect where how we do that, on the human level affects us on the vertical level. Let me come back to what you said, about people thanking you for being self disclosing. What is the overall response, Ben, because there are some Christian circles where, number one, we don't talk about us. And number two, our understanding of us is far from good and beautiful. Yeah, it's it has been interesting to see that because the some of those narratives are so deeply entrenched, the ones that are, I mean, the sort of I'm a terrible, horrible, awful, slimy, sinful piece of garbage. That's deeply entrenched in a lot of people's minds. And so I think the book has, has shocked a lot of people who have never encountered the narrative that says you are a divinely designed, lavishly loved, fully forgiven, sacred child of God with a sacred story. I mean, that's a message that isn't heard that much. And so that's the reaction I'm getting my own church, Chapel Hill, United Methodist Church did that we did a full study of the book church wide, and had a couple 100 People go through the book in small groups. And we just finished it. So it's interesting to get feedback from some of the the people who lead the groups. And I was just visiting yesterday with with a guy who, whose group really dug into the book and got a lot out of it. And he shared that there was hardly a session when someone didn't break down crying, just saying, Man, this, this hit me at a very deep level. So it's been wonderful to see that. It's so beautiful to me. And we're using that word a lot, because that word is in all four of the books in your series, the good and beautiful series. But how when we encounter truth, how it doesn't lead to condemnation that leads to freedom, when it's real truth. And there's something just incredibly liberating about the concept as well as the whole book. The second chapter in the book is all about the body and you called it you have a sacred body. What was it like to write that chapter? Because, you know, when we talk about spirituality, which is what you've worked in the field of spirituality in the soul for four decades, plus, we don't think of the body right away, we almost think of as the antithesis of spirituality. But you had to include that early on in the book. Exactly. And a part of that was was again, working with you, Michael, and, and reading Bessel Vander Kolk book, The Body Keeps the Score. And just recognizing that, as you said, the Hebrew understanding of the soul that includes the body, and Dallas, Willard always talked about that he talked about the sensuality of the body. But I had some of those Gnostic narratives that were like, well, the body is bad, the spirits good. The body is that place that gets us in trouble all the time. And doggone it, we've got this body we've got to put up with but to see it as sacred was fundamental. Actually, in the first version of the book, it was chapter eight. And I had a couple I had a Bible scholar, and two theologians who I really trust I read the first manuscript, and they came to all three of them in one voice separately, but in the same with the same set, they said, please move that chapter up. And I said, tell me why. And they said, because most Christians don't include the body at all. And you've got to start out to say, we are embodied souls or unsold bodies, they're not separate. So you've got to make that clear at the very beginning, is huge. And so that's why I moved it up, because it does need to be brought out right away that your body is sacred. And we fundamentally know this, if suddenly someone's harmed our bodies, violated us, verbally or physically. We know that because our bodies are these incredible sacred things. But when someone does that, to us, it hurts the soul. It breaks the soul. I remember Dallas would talk about when when you know that physical assault on our bodies actually is a bricks, our souls. So seeing them as same, you know, that we're the one the same, our bodies and souls was huge comment on what you just said about an embodied soul? And an insult body? I don't think I've heard you use that contrast before. Yeah, well, I say that in the book. In fact, when I went back through the next time, every time I talk about the body, I talked about being soul body of the embodied soul, so that we keep them together. So that we don't talk about there's a soul and a body because they are united. There they are one they work together. And so that became really important to me in the next version of the book as I was rewriting it, to make sure that I wanted readers to know you can't separate these two, because that was a narrative I had I had separated them, like my soul was this thing I needed to care for. But my body, what's another thing? No, you're our bodies are absolutely indispensable. And they work together. You see it all the time, I'm sure in therapy that what happens what's happening in our soul in our body? They're, they're the same. Yes, and I mean, with COVID. And with any kind of sickness, if you're not feeling well, physically, it's really hard to feel joy, and love and peace and patience and gentleness and kindness. And it truly in that regard, how our body is doing can affect everything about us emotionally and spiritually. Absolutely. Not getting enough sleep. That's a, that's a huge one. I mean, good medical God, the first soul training exercise is sleep. And I learned that, again, when I was field, testing the books with people and I discovered, wow, people don't sleep enough, then I studied it, and we have this problem. It's an epidemic. And, boy, you know, Dallas would often say you can't do anything in your spiritual life, apart from your body. And if you're exhausted, you can't do it. You can't love. You can't pray, you can't serve. It's all connected. Jim, you went deep into the theologian Adrian von calm, a Dutch Catholic theologian. And there you discovered a whole body of theology and literature about this undergirding of the good and beautiful you were you talk a little bit about father find comps influence and what some of his big ideas are. Yeah, that was sort of an accidental thing. I came upon a book of his called on being yourself, which is not a very exciting title. I mean, just on being yourself. And actually, the title made me think it was going to be some sort of a classic self help just, you know, be more who you are. But um, I think like the second page of the book, he says, the truest, most unique person of who you are, is who you are in Christ. And that hooked me right away, I went, who is this guy? So I began studying him What a fascinating life. He was Catholic priest, and he lived through the Dutch hunger famine in World War Two, where the Nazis had had cut off all supplies of food, and they were just they were starving them to death. And he was a priest. And he began to formulate his understanding of the human person during this hunger famine, as he watched how people coped with extreme loss and deprivation. And he began to see the nature of the soul. And then the body. So I started studying him and I saw these parallels with with Dr. Das Willards work. And I thought, wow, I wish these two cats have met in in life and there, they were born and died similarly, in terms of the time their timeframes, but they never met. But he just opened up a whole new understanding. He talked about spiritual formation as a science as a body of knowledge to understand how it works. And so as I began to look at his way of defining terms arms, it opened up a whole new understanding of the nature of the human person and how he put all of this stuff together with the soul and the body and the mind and the will and just fascinating. What's, what's one of the books that you would commend people to read? I found on Amazon and there are like anthologies of his work. So it's a little difficult to just access that, is there a title that you can think of, but he wrote a lot of really small little books that are accessible. The power appreciate of appreciation is one that's a really nice, easy book to read. So the power of appreciation on being yourself if you can find it, is tremendous. And, and it's also an easier volume. Um, he wrote these seven volume, huge academic kinds of series, he wrote two of those, and they're pretty hard. And Susan Muto, and Rebecca Letterman wrote a book called Understanding our story, where they help you understand Vaughn calm, which was a huge resource to me. And also, my correspondence with both of them helped me understand Montcalm because he's not easy like Willard, he's kind of difficult to read. But once you get something, it's like, oh, wow, that's, that's big. Yeah, I have not gone deep into Hong Kong, but discovered his writings through you. And I think it's cool how there's the very intellectual, larger theological series. And then there's the small, kind of spin off pastoral works that he did not neglect. They're very, very practical. So in in the book could beautiful you, you start out talking about you have a soul, we talked about sacred body, and then not that I'm operating from the table of contents. But in the table of contents, there's this progression, like a reverse funnel, where the focus is on our soul, her body, the goodness of those things. And then the funnel gets kind of wider into things like you are loved, you are made for God, you're forgiven, you've been made holy, which is the teaching of the new covenant, and then you move into calling and glorification. But with each of these, there's a theme. And I wanted to see if in the remainder of our time, you could talk about in the chapter, you are desired, you lay down Lectio Divina as a way of more experientially moving into being desired. And then in you are loved breath prayer. And so with both of those, there's an experiential element. And that's a big part of what the apprentice Institute is about, that you're not afraid of. You don't deny, and you don't keep people from experience of God. So first, can you talk about the importance of experiencing God? Where for many that's anathema? Yeah, well, so the the practice of Lectio Divina, which is divine reading of the Scripture, where you open the scripture, and you slowly read a passage, that's the opposite of what we normally do is speed reading, like, devour something quick, taking the information. This is slow reading, where you're asking the spirit, speak to me through this word. And what's so beautiful Michael about about Lectio Divina is that you're you're allowing the Spirit to give you an A word that is for you. And I love doing this with groups of people. If you do group Lectio Divina, so you may have like, say, 12 people in the room, you're all reading the same passage. And you're and you read it over three times slowly. And then you ask people what was what was a word or a phrase that stood out to you. And it's, it's always directed right at that person, even if it's the same word or phrase, quite often it's not. It's someone who will say this verse, this part of the verse or this word stood out. But even if it's the same word or phrase, it had a different meaning. And it just shows the intimacy of God that God knows us so personally, that he would say, this is the word you need today. It might be a word of challenge, it might be word of encouragement, might be word of comfort, whatever it is that we need. The Spirit knows that and so experiencing God is profound. The passage I suggest in that chapter, is on Psalm 139. Because that's that this idea that I was knit together in my mother's womb, I was fearfully and wonderfully made. And in that chapter, I talked about that you are desired by God, that God chose you before the foundation of the world, God knew you would exist and knit you together in your mother's womb. And I just, I have people in my life who have had kids who are adopted, who have had parents who didn't want them. And I mean, even though their biological parents might say later, Hey, I didn't want to have you like it's just like that's a pretty profound thing to have a parent say and obvious For the adoption is that it's some level either, right? Because you got some biological people said, I'm not going to raise this child for whatever reason. And so there's a deep fundamental need of the soul to be desired. And Psalm 139 gets at that, that God knew you for knew that you would exist before the foundation of the world, you would come one day in the body in the time and the place, in whatever that family was that raised you. God was always there. And that experience that can happen when we do Lectio Divina is huge. And then with breath, prayer, that's where you're, you're sick taking a word or phrase, but I belong to you. It's one of my favorite ones. And I just say that, and I let that sink deep into my soul, this idea that I belong to this, this ABA Father, that who is love, who, and that's how Jesus addressed. The father was ABA. So those practices are, connect us experientially. So it's not just some information, it's actually a transformation that happens experientially. Thanks for unpacking both of those, the Psalm 139, hands down, my favorite song, and I have other favorites. But the thing about that psalm is, you know, the theology about how God cannot look upon sin, so we're separated from him. And yet Jesus was born into a sinful world and looked upon sinful people. And the writing of Psalm 139, is before the cross and Jesus death for sin. And God knows David so deeply, so profoundly so intimately. And he celebrating that knowing as opposed to, you know, David, I know you, I know before word is on your tongue, I know it's you better watch out, you better shape up there, spend more time writing songs tomorrow, to the point where we're God, not David, but God says, I'm laying my hand upon you. And it's absolutely too much for you to comprehend. It's too wonderful for you to attain. And it's like, there's this mutual celebration of God's saying, I know the joy that you have in being known. And I have joy in knowing you. And it's just remarkable. And it feels like Psalm 139. is, could be called the good and beautiful psalm about the good and beautiful God who loves the good and beautiful. Us, huh? Yes, preach it. I love it. I love it. What are you hoping somebody gains by reading your book? That's easy for me to say actually, I hope that people, it's two things really, one is that people would wake up and be able to look in the mirror and say I am a divinely designed, lavishly loved, fully forgiven, sacred child of God. And I am meant to, to live with God in this life and into the next and to glorify God with everything that I do. And then the second would be that they would look at other people with those same eyes, that when you encounter someone from a well dressed person in a three piece suit, to the person on the corner with a cardboard sign that you would look at them and say, That person is a divinely designed, lavishly loved, fully forgiven, sacred child of grace and to see the sacredness and, and beauty and in each other. First and foremost, so that's, I know that's a big ask, you know, that people would would be able to look in the mirror and say, That is who I am. I often say you know, Michael, my, my favorite narratives to that I always say every day, I'm one in whom Christ dwells and delights and I live forever in the strong and unshakable kingdom of God. And that's what the book is trying to say. But not only that, I'm that way but look at others and say that is who they are. I love it. So from your chair, and you hold the Dallas Willard Chair of spiritual formation at Friends University in Wichita, Kansas, you interact with a lot of leaders and a lot of authors, you yourself are on staff at the church, as you mentioned in Wichita. What do you seek God's kingdom? As about what what do you see happening in the kingdom in our world in in America, when there's so much negativity, so much conflict, there's war, there's political divisiveness. And yet as you just said, we live in the strong and unshakable kingdom of God. So what do you see happening? Oh, it's the Kingdom the Kingdom is never in trouble. That life is real, and we can rely on it. It never disappoints us. You know, I started out today talking about Kingdom synchronicity and learning to to see I mean, one of the practices that I do pretty much daily I don't want to line in case I you know, it's not every single day but most days. I pray I say to God, give me the eyes to see the Kingdom at work. A day. And then I do an exam and at the end of the day to say, Where did I see it? And what I mean that practice has been huge for me. Because I'll begin to see even the smallest thing, some interactions. Like say, for example, I've, I know, I'm going to be meeting with a person later in the day, I had this meeting, and I might pray for whatever I need. Maybe it's courage that day, or maybe it's a sense of compassion. Maybe it's a prayer to say, keep me aligned with your will today, God in this in this interaction and meeting, and then I have those things, and then later, I'll look back and see how God was doing something. And that's just, I love to see because the Kingdom is God's power. It's God's provision. It's God's protection. It's God's presence. I got a lot of peace in there. But it's all of those things. And that's why Dallas wrote the divine conspiracy, it's closer to us than we know. And it's reliable. And it's big. And it's happening. But human beings, what do we do, we turn away to the kingdom of Jim and then King Michael, and I got my own thing. And then your kingdom collides with mine, and then we fight. And we're all that sort of thing. Churches compete with each other. There's so much it's a mess. But the kingdom is never in trouble. So that's why every day I just say, Thy kingdom come. That's that's the prayer. I want to align my life. I don't, my prayer doesn't make the kingdom come. So I'm not naive enough to think that I just made the kingdom come because I prayed that King. Now it's here. When I pray Thy kingdom come, I'm saying, bring it into gym, bring it into every fiber of who I am. And everything that I'm about today, because it's the best thing going. Well, Jim, my brother, my friend, my colleague, it's really delightful to talk with you it's always good to talk with you but thanks for thank you for sharing your heart and sharing some of the the understory and backstory behind the book. Well, thanks for having me, Michael, you again. Thank you. For all that you've done for me continue the friendship, the work we do together. You're a massive blessing in my life. So thank you for listening to another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. What we're all about is helping couples and individuals get unstuck. You know how some people go to counseling or marriage therapy for months or even years and never really get anywhere. Our intensive programs help clients get unstuck in as little as two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com