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Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. Merry Christmas, everyone. If you're listening in the US, you've probably hunkered down with a few extra blankets or your warmest coat to brave the cold front that has crippled nearly all the country that maybe it's a blessing. Maybe this is a great opportunity to take advantage of the time to slow down and spend quality time with friends family. Maybe ponder the Christmas story that will take you to a place of worship as we consider our newborn King. Merry Christmas from all of us here at restoring the soul. Now today, Michael welcomes Reverend Dr. Case Lee SMR to the podcast. Originally from Ghana case Lee is the Secretary of the global Christian forum. He's a bicultural bridge builder, with a heart to see the world united in Christ loving and respecting each other to build the kingdom here on earth. Michael met case Lee while on a recent pilgrimage in Scotland, and they'll recount some of their more insightful conversations. We hope you'll learn where the church is thriving and growing in the world, and what we can all learn from the church in the global south. So Now without any further delay, here's your host, Michael John Cusack. A special treat today on the restoring the soul podcast is I get to talk with my new friend, Reverend Dr. Case, Lee as a moolah. Welcome. Thank you very much. It's really a treat for me to be here. This is a blast. And thank you for welcoming me here. Oh, it's a pleasure. This is the first time we've talked since we met. We met in the middle of June in Scotland. When together we were doing the st. Cuthberts pilgrimage 100 kilometers. And it was just so delightful to meet you to walk with you through the trails and mountains and hills of Scotland and to have meals together and to hear your heart and as soon as we had that first meal together. I thought I wanted to have you on the podcast. So have you recovered from the hike? That's my big question. Well, thank you. Thank you. That was quite an experience. And I was very, very privileged to be able not only to walk, but to be with the people like you and the others that we had those precious precious moments with. I have very fond memories of pilgrimage, the places we went to, but the conversations, the conversations, it just was a treat. So thank you, thank you. It is still with me. And I go back in my mind's imagination and memory to some of those times that we spent together. Yes. And my big question is, did your luggage ever show up? It did. It did exactly a week after I went to I think it was Glasgow airport or Edinburgh. I don't even know which one it was. And they said, you know, we used to have six people handling the lost and found. But there's only one person here. So that's why we couldn't get to you. But here it is. And I found it. And I was so grateful to God for that I was I was just special. I thought it was quite remarkable that you hiked every day in khaki pants and a white button down shirt. And you looked every day like you're ready for the boardroom. It was how did you do that? There wasn't a spotlight on you. The Lord just kept me I think I mean, I I tend to travel with too much, you know. And I remember once there were a couple of bishops and big church people are struggling with his case. And why do you have two or three pieces of luggage we're just going to be here for easily I travel and then I tag on another trip and attack three or four trips. So I had so I told them that oh, you know what? I always carry religious baggage with me. And for whom English was a first language they just burst out laughing you I could do it. The others were like what what is he saying anyway? Well, a big part of your job, which we're going to talk about is traveling all over the world and you are from Ghana. So share with our listeners some of the story about your background, how you ultimately came to Christ, went to Harvard got a master of divinity and became the secretary general of the global Christian Forum. Thank you very much Miko. I really appreciate this time. I call myself an accidental missionary. Because I did not sort of set out to do what I'm doing now. My father As the leader, Most Reverend, as some will be a somewhat was presiding bishop of the Methodist Church in Ghana, my mother and esteana was a women's leader in the church in Ghana. And in many, many respects, I think that my life and my career is really standing on the shoulders. This is a denomination, which during the time was about half a million strong. Now it's even more stronger than it was and very, very influential in Ghana. I look back on my life. And there are two or three things that really marked me for who I am now, of course, being born in a pastor's house, we had daily Bible reading and prayer. And that was usually adorn your walking up at 5am, whether you like it or not to be part of that. And it was really my mother who was in charge of that. But it was also my father's encouragement at the age of 13, my father had gone to Hawaii for John Haggai Institute. It's an institute that trades leaders for evangelism and discipleship in the Global South. And he just sent me a postcard in those days say, you know, God has no grandchildren, you cannot think you have a relationship with God or with Christ, because your father is a pastor, because you spend so much time in the church, you need to see God for yourself. And with that, I was then at a boy school, I went to a scripture union meeting at in France with him. And the very first time they had an altar call, I went forward, you know, I wasn't so much of the first time I'm discovering Jesus, all I am being found by Jesus, I think it was, in my case, more of I made the faith my own, it was me going forward to say, Okay, I am also raising my hand saying, I want to give my life and, and it was, it was radical in the sense that it wasn't only a conversion experience, it was also in a sense of calling. The first thing that I recognized was that I was a sinner, which is not a very interesting thing. But but for me, who was a pastor's kid who thought sinners were all outside the church, that was great for me to come to that understanding that I am a sinner, but for the grace of God, very my life is not going to amount to anything. But then also a sense of calling appreciation for what my parents were doing the sacrifice, the commitment, the dedication, and the sort of a spiritual endowment you get when you are raised up in an environment like that. It's something that I hope and pray that I will be able to also pass it on to my children and family. And it's it's tough in every generation. It's tough to do that. But but that was those were the things that really got me into church life and church work. I did my schooling in Ghana, I did. My high school, my first degree in Ghana, and in between, I spent a year in Belgium, in Europe. And it was in Belgium that for the first time in my life, I discovered that I was black. You know, when you are in a country where everyone you live with is of the same color, you don't get a sense of color at all, but in Belgium, and he was a lousy, I stuck out like a sore thumb, you know. And there were some good things. And there were also some bad things in that discovery, as we all know. But I was loved by people who really, really, they just love it so much love on me, the families that I stayed with, I'm still in touch with them. For about a month ago, my host brother came to visit us here in the US with his family. So we were very close, that went back to Ghana, then apply for the Methodist ministry did seminary training, taught at a college in Ghana, but always with this desire, I want to learn, I want to learn I want to study I want to do graduate studies, for the sake of being more useful, better equipped to serve others. And that is how I eventually ended up on have a Divinity School, Cambridge, Massachusetts. So let me let me ask you about that. You are this. You're what in your early 20s. You're from Ghana, you're a young man, you've got all of this religious tradition in your family and your dad was a big deal there in the church. And you said to me once that you showed up and nobody cared who you were, nobody kind of knew you. And it's a an incredibly secular environment. You know, it's not like a conservative Baptist seminary. What was it like there to show up and to be in this new world of incredible world class academics and really, not a lot of belief? You're absolutely right. I mean, it was a there was an internal shock to the system internally. Here for the first time I was at a place nobody knew who I was. There were no boundaries. For me. I was an adult, late, late 20s. There were no expectations laid on me. And then externally, the theological studies that I was going through, as you said, it me it wasn't even necessarily just secular. Sometimes it was it was hostile to Christianity. In fact, in very big large Ivy League seminaries, I think the faith that usually gets beating down on the most is Christianity. Because when they think of church, they think of abuse. When they think of missions, they think of colonialism, imperialism, when they think of Bible, they think of it also, it's completely different from my training, my understanding my experience, and yet, that is where I had to have my graduate degree. And it was a challenge, I was really stretched a lot. Two things that really helped me go through that period and go through that period successfully, where there were Christian groups on campus. And being part of those Christian groups was very helpful. But I also discovered a church. In Boston, the church is called Park Street Church has a very long history of missions, involvement and engagement, but also has a lot of international students who are part of the church. And that fellowship carried me through my years in Boston, and also through my education through Boston University, where you did your doctorate, where I did my doctorate, that is right. And one of the beautiful things about Boston is that they have what is called the Boston theological Institute, which at that time was all the theological seminaries and colleges in Boston from Boston College, which is Catholic, Holy Cross, which is Orthodox, from Gordon Conwell, Theological Seminary, Boston University, Harvard Divinity School, Andover, Newton Divinity School, all those you can, if you are a student in one, you can take classes in others. So you could make up up to about 50% of classes, you could take in other places, other sort of the denominational distinctives. And that is very, that was very helpful and very encouraging. I was very much pleased by that. So occasionally, when you were doing your divinity degree at Harvard, and then later your doctorate in Boston, what did you start to see and understand about world and global Christianity? So there's the understanding from Ghana and Africa, and then American Christianity and Western Christianity is, in many ways, a lot of nuanced and not so nuanced differences. And what did you start to see that started to draw you toured the world that you're in now, this may be simplifying things, but the way I was looking at the world was the education I was having was very theoretical, highly academic, very philosophical. The life of Christians in Ghana and in the Global South, very, very experiential. The faith is asking the question, Does this work? The faith of those that are in the Western world, and especially in the academy? Is this true? So those are two different approaches to your faith? If it is true, then okay, let's embrace it. But for those in the what we call the two thirds world or the global South, does it work? Is it effective? That is why a lot of people tend to be either evangelical Pentecostal, because it is a spiritual experience based, can it really bring about transformation in my life? Can I see the transformation? And if it can, then oh, yeah, then then it is true. Whereas in the Western world, it is the other way around? Is it true, before we can embrace it, and then we can so that was, that was a very interesting difference. Yeah. So in what ways? Does that distinction hurt the church today? I'm aware that you can't be 100% Truth or 100% experiential. But from your observations, if I can use this sense of an outsider's lens into America in particular, how has the more exclusive emphasis on truth hurt us? Ah, my goodness, that's, that's that's a tough question. I think it sort of made in many respects, probably the US the most divisive in terms of Christian faith. It's very, very active, very, very strong Christian presence in the US. But almost every moral issue, every ethical issue, if you go take it to the Supreme Court, half of the churches in the US are on one side, half of the other churches are on the other side. They are all bringing you in there. What is it? The briefs you know, to say that this is what issue that we should be decided this how we should be decided. So it because we are going to things seeking for truth and because our truth then becomes personalized, it's it's relativized truth for you. Truth for me are different. It's not true for us, it's not communal. So everything is a choice. Everything is a choice. You can choose who whose truth or which truth you believe. Whereas when you come from an environment where life is so communist I mean, my wife is from East Africa. And one of the things that she loves about Ghana and West Africa is our, we wear a lot of fabric together, you know, you go to a funeral, and the quarter of the people are in the same fabric, the same is it? How do they work it out that they all got the same fabric, and we have that network. And if you are a member of the family, or you want to show that you belong, you don't want to not wear that fabric. I mean, you just It is unthinkable you we see strength in community, you will see strength in family, we you see, the fact that there's so much individualism, the fact that there's so much, it just just sort of works against a church, a church is supposed to be an extended family. A church is supposed to be a place where you belong because of Jesus Christ. And you make that sort of the dominant factor in your life. That's really helpful and provocative, because, you know, in the work that we do here at restoring the soul, people are Christians. And yet oftentimes, there's an overemphasis on truth and correct belief. And people will discover in their brokenness, when they're coming to get soul care, or healing, that their knowledge of God is really limited to information. And its knowledge about God, and it's not actual knowledge with God. And I know that people in in Ghana and Africa and other places in the world where it may be more expensive, experiential, they're not necessarily more or less mature. But it does seem in the Animus sense of spirit, that there's more of an openness to spirituality that's rooted in Christ, and not just a faith that's about the information and getting the correct sermon. Would you say that's true? That is true. Let me give an example which is totally not connected with this. One of the worst experiences, of course, I had given the fact that I was traveling, and I was COVID-19. What do I do? How do I do my work? And what I missed the most was not the meetings with the church leaders. And please forgive me, church leaders, if you're listening to this, what's the the right in the Ubers? Because everywhere I went, I took an Uber. And it was like 20 minutes, 30 min 40 minute conversation with most people, most Uber drivers, at least in the world that I have been through, are people from the Global South. And it doesn't take two minutes for us to talk about spiritual things. Who are you? I'm a pastor, what are you going, I'm going to Geneva? What are you gonna be doing? I'm going to be working. Oh, you know what, they immediately go to spiritual things. And those were some of the most precious conversations, I tell my folks who are still on staff at the church that I spoke with people who are outside the faith and had more spiritual conversations. By taking Uber, there was a time when I was thinking I was even going to do it be an Uber driver just can, I mean, you have 2030 minutes, captive audience. And it just it just wonderful. But you're right, there is the openness, there is the it's much more easier for people for whom the world is all there is no dichotomy between physical and spiritual between soul and body. All of it has to be hold, to be healed to be together. And so it's easier to engage in those things much easier. In the Global South. You know, we had a lot of those conversations along the path in Scotland, especially with our friend Kyle, is we talked about neuroscience and the left brain and the right brain and that kind of integration. So it'd be fascinating to dig into that sometime. But I want our listeners to hear about your present work, and the passion that you have around global faith and around the global church in the unity that your organization is about. I want our listeners to catch some of that. So talk about ultimately, how you ended up at the Global Christian forum, what you do and what your heartbeat is there. For almost 25 years, I had given my life to global missions at two churches, Park Street Church in Boston, I became the Minister of missions there. And then Bay Area Community Church in Annapolis, and I was content and was delighted that the Lord will have me do that I was going all over the world, Poland, Uganda, Ghana, Belize, Indonesia, in India, all over the world, literally, with with Americans and doing short term missions or coming alongside people who wanted to go full time. But I had come back from a five week trip in January, and I'd been assigned something to do and then after I'd finished it and took about six months to do that I got a call that there is this organization is looking for a secretary and we think it will be a great candidate. And my immediate response was no I just put together a five year strategic plan for missions, this church where I'm at so I'm not going to be a good person for you. But when the pressing persisted, he said you know what, why don't you pray about this and I know you and then we can So it's okay, I'll pray. I know what God is going to say I'm not going to be leaving this. So I started investigating and What was this about? This is a global Christian forum. It's a forum. It's not an organization. It's not an institution. But it's a forum that creates a safe space for church leaders to come, particularly church leaders who are from the two sides of the global Christian family. The two sides are the Roman Catholics, and the World Council of Churches that is a mainline Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, and then the Evangelicals and the Pentecostals and charismatics. So this is a forum that brings them together, not for advocacy, not for releasing a statement for them to get to know each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a forum that when we get together, what we do is we ask the question, What is God doing in your life? What is God doing in my life, and we use faith stories, we use testimonies, to build bridges, to defuse tension, to lessen animosity to, to sort of get away with the misinformation that you know, because a lot of times, we have all sorts of ideas about what the other person is doing what the other church is doing. But it's our stereotypes is our caricatures of what they're doing. We don't know the reasons why they're doing it, or why it's so important for them to do that. And then we realize that as we share stories, and especially in the Global South, a lot of the leaders come through either the Scripture union or InterVarsity, or crew, all Youth for Christ, you know, so you realize, oh, my goodness, these people who might be the head of the Lutheran, so the Mennonites, so the Baptist, so they actually have similar foundations of faith as we do. And that's what we do we bring them together, we bring them to ask the question, What's God doing in your life, and the desire is for us to recognize Christ in each other, and each other in Christ, because every Christian is on a journey with Jesus Christ, every Christian with has a walk with Jesus Christ. And so sharing that story is introducing ourselves to one another, Christian, to Christian. And it has been such a great, great means of just building bridges, and then sensing what the Lord will have us do go to as a result of that. You know, I love how you said that they get together talk, hear stories, and there's this discovery that they have a similar foundation. But the little bit that we've talked, also a discovery that they have similar struggles, human struggles, Faith struggles, organizational struggles, pastoral struggles, because ultimately, the business of faith if I can put it that way, as a business of people, and that's messy, have a question. Have you ever seen when when you say to a group of Christian leaders, let's just get together and talk and get to know each other? Is there a sense of resistance at all like, Well, why would I want to do that it doesn't accomplish anything. Or two people jump at that, because they're so hungry to actually sit down and share who they are? It depends. I think the ground has softened a lot in the last 2030 years, the very first meetings that this forum held, the leaders who came probably only the espouses knew where they were going to go to not even their secretaries. In those days, you have secretaries who would make do travel arrangements, not even their secretaries knew where they were going to go to, because it was so sensitive. And some of some of the meetings we even have photos, because you didn't want to be seen to be next to someone else. But things have changed. I mean, it's not all changed. But there's a lot of improvement in the last 25 years. We have leaders speaking in each other's global gatherings. For instance, the World Council of Churches, Acting Secretary General was at the Pentecostal word fellowship in Seoul last month. And the month before August, a Pentecostal leader was at the World Council of Churches. This is something that's unthinkable 20 years ago, 30 years ago, so there's a lot more traffic, but there's still a lot of work to be done. About three weeks ago, a member of my former church called me up and said past occasionally. My boyfriend belongs to an ex ex denomination. And my family is saying that if I go forward with a wedding, they're not going to show up at the wedding. They're not going to be part of my life. I mean, this is real stuff. This is not something made up is not church leaders, quarreling, these are members of denominations considering that that other church and I don't want to mention them, he might be the officer. The church is not Christian enough. And yet they are all Christians. These are people who expect to spend eternity together in heaven. But they don't want to be together here and do anything not even to celebrate the wedding of a daughter. So there's still a lot of work to be done. A lot. A lot of there's a lot that has been done but there's still a lot of work to be done. So not to put you on On the spot, but let's say that that that woman that called you said, Will you come and meet with my family? And will you facilitate a conversation? In the real world? What would you say to them? You know, you can't just quote a Bible verse and say, stop this, but probably that same manner of facilitating conversation. Yes, I would first try to hear what it is that where they're coming from in terms of their Christian faith. And what it is that they know of the other side, what is true, and what may just be a caricature or missing misinformed idea, I will try to engage them. But I also try to you know, I, again, also as a pastor who has been a pastor for almost 30 years, you marry someone, for many reasons. And and you have to look at so many different things to marry the pressing. The faith is very important. I agree the faith is very important. But would that be the only reason why you are not going to get married, I will challenge them. And I will challenge them that mean, practically speaking, when you get married, and you have kids, the grandparents, no matter what, their reservations, they come around anyway. But I will, I will just walk them through and say that maybe this is also an opportunity for you to be a testimony to your family, for them to learn new things about about other other Christian traditions and denominations. Yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy at all. But But yeah, that's the way that I will walk through with them. You've told me and I've also seen this in some of your writing that in America, that there's a lot of criticism about the church, but that as soon as you step outside, or help people to see the global church beyond the US borders, that there's so much that's going right and so much that God is doing. Tell me a little bit about that, like, what do you see in and outside of your organization, as you travel the world, aspects of the Body of Christ that would encourage people in the midst of the tremendous division and discord and contention and deconstruction that we often are hearing about here in America? Yeah, I think the global church is dynamic, it's living is vital, and is growing. Definitely, definitely in Latin America, in Asia, parts of Asia, and also in Africa. We were in Seoul last month for the Pentecostal world fellowship, as well as for our original consultation. And we had people who were part of our regional consultation from Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar, Mongolia, India, Philippines, Indonesia, and of course, South Korea. And just to listen to them, they are faithfulness, some of them are going through severe persecution, their faithfulness is still they still love the Lord. They still every day, carry out their ministry. They still serve their neighborhood. They I mean, it's so heartwarming to be in the presence of people for whom persecution and discrimination is a real, live everyday occurrence. In fact, one of them said, Pastor Kesley, this meeting needs to end as we have said on Monday, and I need to be on the plane to go back on Tuesday. Because the government in my country is holding my family. And if I don't go, they will think that I came as someone to come and spread. I mean, it just unimaginable. He just used to say, Oh, you go to a place like Sudan, and which we used to visit a lot when we was a global mission. You go to the church in Sudan, one of the fastest growing churches in the world. And you see the people who are in Sudan and the suffering that they've gone through, and I don't go to teach them or they I go to learn, I go to show solidarity I go to just take from them some of the perseverance and resilience in in standing for the faith in the midst of so much persecution, or even even a place like Seoul, where churches are just huge. South Korea, I mean, you you the church, I preached that probably three, four Sundays back, maybe 40,000 members, the service I preached that was like 8000. And they do about six of those in a day. I mean, it just, it changes a huge and it's sometimes good to be at a place where you look all around and it's almost like it feels like a stadium filled with Christians. It's very different from a church here that I'll go in Maryland, and there are churches here I go to sometimes where they're just about 20 of us in a sanctuary that can see maybe 200 or 300 people and 20 people I may be the youngest there. And you need to know that you are part of something that is larger, that is greater or you go to Europe and you see all these beautiful cathedrals, but most of them are empty on a Sunday, right? It's only once a year or twice a Yeah, that it's really being. So the global church is growing, the global church is doing very well. And it's good for people who are in the global north to have an experience of the global church in the Global South, to sort of be an encouragement for them in their faith. I like that to not just go in be an encouragement, but you said, it's so powerful when you said, I think go to teach in Sudan, I went to learn, and to have that experience of the global south is to see what they're experiencing. So what can we learn? And as you refer to global north and south, I'm referring specifically to the US because that's what I'm familiar with. What can we learn from the church in the Global South? I think the fact that a lot of people in the global south live and work with people who have a non Christian background in non Christian faith, they have learned how to live with difference, and not make the difference become a source of conflict. That is one thing which I think we will do very well even within the Christian family in the US, that whatever diversity we have it can we not make it a source of conflict, so that we are not lobbing grenades at other Christians, for for whatever they are? The social and most of the times for their social or ethical stance, or sometimes in churches may have the same theology, but because we're divided because of race, you know, what what Martin Luther King said 11 o'clock is the most segregated in the is Celeste unfortunately, it still is. And sometimes it is the churches that are made up of immigrants that are really very, very dynamic. And that cuts across not only evangelicals and Pentecostals, but even with the Catholics and with the Anglicans, the churches that are made up of immigrants are very, very vibrant. And the fact that in the Global South, sometimes belonging comes before believing, we put believing right at the beginning of our Christian pilgrimage in the Global North, you got to believe this, then you will be part of us. What about you can't be part of us, let us love on you. We will love on you so much that you say there's no reason these people could be naturally doing this. This must be the Holy Spirit infusing them. What about we have that approach, instead of trying to see that they check all the boxes and get everything right before we embrace them? That's one thing that maybe the global north can learn from from the Global South. What are you most encouraged by that your organization in your work in particular is looking at into the future? I know there's a big conference coming up in Ghana in April of 2024, where church leaders from all over the world will be coming there. But what like what's the mission that you're pressing into? Specifically, the theme for the conference 2024 is so that the world may know John 1723 B's so that the world may know? We're going to look at the question, what is it that the world needs to know about Christians, about the church? We are the largest religious organization in the world, we are 33% of the world's population, what is our witness to the world? You know, unity is not unity for its own sake. Unity is for the sake of us being able to show something to the world that indeed Jesus Christ as Lord Jesus Christ is Savior, and doing that in a loving way doing that in a way that is attractive doing that in a way that people will say, yes, we want to be part of that. So the whole thrust of what we do is from of course, Ephesians, four saying that we have one baptism, one Lord, one faith, one king, one heaven, and we are all sort of journeying together towards that. One of the verses in scripture that has been a great, great source of inspiration for me is First Corinthians 12, where it says that we were all made to drink of one Spirit. We were all made to drink. I mean, you cannot be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit in you. But you have you were made to drink of one spirit. There is not a Holy Spirit for Catholics and a Holy Spirit for Pentecostals and a Holy Spirit for baptism. We it's one Spirit, and just the recognition of that and the recognizing that there are many ways that the enemy actually puts us together we divide on so many things. There are ways of persecution. If people are trying to discriminate and oppress Christians, they usually don't ask, Are you a Baptist? Are you a Catholic, they just say do you is a place of worship and this people your questions, then they start firing at you. There are many ways that we can collaborate together in a service to to the poor, you know, in the book of Acts, talk about the Peter and Paul sort of parting ways because they needed to one go and save the circumcised and then one save the uncircumcised, though the Jewish and the Gentiles. And as they did that, what they said was, we were reminded that we should never forget the poor. There is poverty in this world that a Christian church needs to stand up with a united voice and speak against there are issues that we need to start, whether it is climate change, whether it is abuse of children, whatever it is, let us stand up we can we can look at those things as things that are on the heart of Jesus and come together as Christians and tackle those for the sake of the gospel. There is many ways that we can bring about solidarity in our world, and our Christian witness. And that is what it's my privilege and my joy to serve the global church along those lines. If you talk about the poor, one of the things that I'm reminded of again, and again, especially by my friend, Philip Yancey, as he's written about this, and spoken about this, is that if you look at the history of humanitarian work, through civilization, but especially in the last couple, 100 years, it's Christians who show up and build the schools, and the hospitals and provide food and bring about clean water, not exclusively, but it's generally speaking, either a government, non government organization, or some kind of ministry, or Christian denomination. And that's just so important for me to remember, you know, in Romans 116. And I don't know if I should say this, when to say it anyway. Remember, as a young Christian memorizing Romans 116, for I'm not ashamed of the Gospel is the power of salvation. And my my youth leader teaching me that that word power is dunamis. Like dynamite, it's so powerful. And yet, if I can say this, I have found myself ashamed of the gospel. And it's not actually the gospel, which is God saying, This is what I'm like, I'm like Christ Jesus, or here is the good news. But it's it's the sometimes embarrassing way that Christians act. And I've been a part of that, frankly. But when I start to think about, oh, the Jesuits, who went to parts of Asia, and fed people and built schools, or the people that have gone to Africa, or New Orleans, and worked, rebuilding houses, whatever it might be, that's the heart of God, and that there's people around the world that are faithfully acting, and representing the heart of God, not a denomination, not some doctrinal truth. And that's just so encouraging for me. It is, and they're doing that daily, they doing that daily, they doing that weekly, and they doing that with perseverance, they do that with resilience. And, and that is so so encouraging. You're absolutely right. I mean, to just walk alongside people like that, and sometimes with very, very little resources, and still the desire to make a difference in for the sake of Christ is unbelievable. Yes, yes, yes. Well, my brother, I want to thank you for this conversation for you making time you're a very busy man, you told me that literally, just this morning, you'd lectured at Princeton, at the theological seminary there, and then you went home, and you jumped on this call. So I'm really grateful. And I hope that our paths crossed again. And I'm also grateful because I'm the sole care guy, that you took the time, in the middle of your schedule, you have a family, but you travel around the world, in the middle of that you took seven or 10 days. I think longer than that, actually. Because you went to Iona after we were in Scotland and England, but to pause and to be on a pilgrimage to tend to your own soul and to be quiet. That says a lot about your wisdom and your humility. But I want to do something on your behalf and on behalf of global Christian forum that I've never done before on this podcast, at least to my recollection, and that is that I want to I want to do a pitch to our listeners to consider supporting you when we had those meals together and hearing your heart and my own stirrings for what God is doing in the world and how he's using you because I think you are uniquely positioned for your job. If I was to have your job, I don't think I'd be anywhere as effective because I am from the global north because I'm white skin because I'm I don't have a Harvard degree so God has taken you know, so many unique things about you. And so if people want to make a donation or if you want to learn more about Reverend Dr. Case, Lee and what he is doing as God's representative in the world, you can go to global Christian forum.org And if you want to make a donation specific Leave for case leader for his organization, you would just go to staff support. Again, that's global Christian forum.org. And staff support. Anything else you want to say about that about how people can support or did I cover it? No, you did. You did. And I'm very grateful. One of the last thing I want to say is actually a testimony. Because I told you I was really hit hard by COVID-19. And I took walking, I picked up walking, making sure that I put in my 10,000 steps a day. And one thing that helped me was discovery of podcast, oh, my goodness, I didn't know there was a whole universe of of materials and resources out there. And it was it was mentally and spiritually very, that's what carried me through COVID those times, so I am glad. And I'm hoping and praying that someone listening will be encouraged by this. I'm hoping and praying that someone listening would have their heart stirred and able to donate and support this great but definitely Pray, pray, if it was important enough to be part of Jesus's final prayer. It has to be part of our prayer, that they may be one so that the world may know so that the world may believe if it's important to Jesus, you and I must make it significant in our prayer life as well. Thank you very much really, really appreciate the time spent with you and I'm looking forward to having some other time we can spend together. So thank you for listening to another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. What we're all about is helping couples and individuals get unstuck. You know how some people go to counseling or marriage therapy for months or even years and never really get anywhere. Our intensive programs help clients get unstuck in as little as two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com