Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. Our good friend Brad jurrasic joins us once again on the podcast. This is part two, and he and Michael's conversation about Brad's latest book out of the embers, Faith after the great deconstruction. Now in the book, Brad explores the necessity, perils and possibilities of the great deconstruction, how it has the potential to either sabotage our communion with God, or infuse it with the breath of life, the light and the life of Christ Himself. Now if you're in the stage of your journey with God, where you're looking for inspiration or direction, this two part conversation may be just what you need. We've put the link to part one in the show notes. And the conversation in its entirety is riveting. So stay tuned as Brad shares a fascinating look at his spiritual journey and the ramifications deconstruction had on his ministry and relationships. So Now without any further delay, here's your host, Michael JOHN CUSICK.
MICHAEL CUSICK:I'm jumping around here, but you have a section on metaphors of how deconstruction are different metaphors. And I'm gonna read through a couple of these really quickly just the names among the metaphors you've employed. You've said things like deconstruction is demolition renovation, detox rehabilitation, detoxing, cleanse, Extreme Makeover, fine art restoration, growing up aging, well, path pilgrimage, tailor making dry cleaning wedding gowns, very creative. Then you go into Christ like metaphors, which are kind of very specifically biblical. Metamorphosis, Homecoming old and new wineskins water to wine, you have another entire page of these. And then you say, origami, how would you describe your story? And I love there's a brilliant combination in this book. And this is true of all of your books, where there's some pretty heavy duty theology where you've got to kind of slow down and just chew on things. But you're always so pastoral, leading people back to well, let me hear your heart. Let me hear your story. And your transition right then as you're inviting people to think about their story that all of the deconstruction is disorientation. And I don't know if you took this from him or not. But I read years ago in Walter Bergman's book on the Psalms, He's the first person I heard speak about, orientation, disorientation, reorientation, and I love the disorientation with deconstruction. But you have five different metaphors, for lack of a better term, the reasons why people are going through this disorientation. Can you talk about those, and if you don't have them right in front of you, I can do one at a time.
Brad Jersak:Let's do one at a time. Okay,
MICHAEL CUSICK:the first one is B, leaving v dash leaving.
Brad Jersak:Yep. So these are the folks that, that, you know, we're in a congregation or denomination where things got so toxic, or where the church or pastor lost their way so badly, that it was not them who moved on, but the church, in fact, and so at some point, they needed to leave. So I think a lot of people leave church prematurely, they leave their community because they're disgruntled or didn't get their own way, or don't have the maturity to hold disagreement with respect. But then there's those who like, they have to flee and Jesus led them out. So that I would call those the believers they heard the voice of Jesus saying, the soul damage is becoming demoralizing and dehumanizing. And I don't expect you to stay in that kind of domestic abuse anymore. The trouble for the believers is then now what? Because they go from a toxic relationship into alienation, quite often, the group's they're leaving, if it's the kind they need to leave, those groups become punitive as well, and you get a double kind of trauma.
MICHAEL CUSICK:I see that in 12 Step programs, and sometimes in our weekend, or even our intensive programs, where people see, oh, my gosh, I've been in this very toxic, diminishing abusive environment, spiritually speaking. You know, there's so much good discussion and writing. Like, while back I had Scot McKnight on the program about a church called Tov and helping people To see goodness in a church community versus abuse, but where do I go. And as a pastor caregiver, it's really hard to say. And I can only point people sometimes to national resources and to podcasts and books like this. So as we're having this conversation, what I see down the road is out of the reconstruction, new forms, and new function and new fellowships coming together that may not look at all like what we call church.
Brad Jersak:That's right, we're going to need a generous kind of vision, and not just say, well, this or that alternative form doesn't count. It's like, of course it counts. Yeah. Yeah, time requires that this is an act of mercy.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Yeah. The next one, in terms of a metaphor for deeper exploration is deconstruction, that becomes liberation. unpack that?
Brad Jersak:Yeah. So deliberation idea goes all the way back to to the story of Exodus. Right? So the people are in bondage to Pharaoh, and they pass through the Red Sea, and then they have to go through 40 years in the wilderness before they find the promised land. But this idea of being liberated, so then the question, I think a lot of our deconstruction is about dismantling prisons that we've been in bondages that we've experienced. And so some of these can even be religious, religious bondage of some sort that or, but not only don't just think church Think of what what are the other kinds of bondage that I'm in that I need, I need freedom from so so even an addict bottoming out is a kind of deconstruction, they have to bottom out before they can be free. Or, and then when they do, how liberating is that. But even even the, you know, John Wesley's great him that I cite in the book about, you know, he suddenly sees the light of Christ and the chains fell off and I am free. And this is this is classic Christianity to compare the revelation of Christ in our hearts to the Exodus Out of Egypt, and I think we even use that term now. Wow, there's been a huge exodus from the churches. Well, some of those are Exodus is some of you know, actual jailbreaks from, from from really, or a jailbreak from a kind of notion of God who held us in bondage. So I think when you have that kind, there's going to be an element of sense of liberation and you know, the butterfly coming out of the cocoon and so on.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Yeah, like how you qualify that some of them are liberation. It's like somebody who gets out of prison or jail, but they still have an ankle bracelet. Because just getting away from the unhealthy image of God doesn't mean that there's healing wholeness, or even freedom at RTS here on we have a whiteboard that I put quotes on. And one of them is from Hafez, one of my favorite quotes, who says that the small person builds cages for everyone they meet, but the sage who has to duck his head when the moon is low, keeps dropping keys for all the beautiful rowdy prisoners.
Brad Jersak:Oh, my goodness, you got to email me that.
MICHAEL CUSICK:I will. And, you know, I think what you do with the writing, and when you speak, and frankly, just being around you is you're a person who drops keys because of the keys that you've been given. And that idea of paying forward mercy. I just love that about you. The next one is trauma that people are deconstructing because of trauma and you obviously talked about your own story, but coming on that,
Brad Jersak:yeah. So you know, it would be lovely if if all of our deconstruction was voluntary and liberating, but the reality is when when we are traumatized in some kind of way, then it's a big picture word for deconstruction is a questioning our assumptions, nothing questions, your assumptions as as powerfully as trauma. And so even some of my, my true, the truths that I assumed like God is good with trauma even got me questioning that and so we see this kind of trauma in the book of Job. And if and job's a book on deconstruction, and all of the foolish answers, his best friends give him are being deconstructed by the book and even that we go further and say that the deconstruction the questions themselves need deconstructing? Because they can sometimes turn into accusations you know, and which is a big part of what I'm up to in the book. I'm saying, well, let's let's not be Go half baked here, we've got to deconstruct deconstruction itself too. And trauma tree can trigger that journey.
MICHAEL CUSICK:My definition of trauma is any experience, event or environment that overwhelms us and leaves us without loving resources to go. And so if I think about it that way, yeah, trauma brings up this question of is there any loving resource, and my body is crying out there isn't. So how, how can I have the neural network to trust or internalize that God could be trusted? Yeah, yeah. Wow. How about purgation? Number four or five with the metaphors?
Brad Jersak:Yeah, so for those who don't know that word, it just means purging. Right. And so purgation is a process? Well, it's where we get the word purgatory from to write it. And so the idea is, when we go through the heat, or fires of deconstruction, they will consume the wood, hay and stubble of our, let's say false narratives, they will burn up the dross and Malikai three says that when the refiners fire comes in, it burns away the dross, and it leaves you It purifies you. And the fact that your true self is solid gold gets to shine forth, right, and the wood, hay and stubble of our assumptions is burnt up, and the gold, silver and precious stones, First Corinthians three is revealed. And so I love this idea that we are not snow covered, done. You know, Jesus hasn't just coated us over with some whitewash to hide the ugliness inside. Rather, at the very heart of every human being is a precious diamond, but the dust of death and the anxieties and busyness of life, the traumas we experienced the wounds we go through the the sins that tempt us, all of these can tarnish the diamond. So how does God purify us in this life? Well, one of the ways is through the fires of deconstruction, that cleanse out those kinds of things. And this is this is common to every mystic. They see that there's going to be a stage that of our mystical journey that is about purifying our hearts, our eyes, our lives somehow. And it's not a moralism thing. It is God is a consuming fire. Who is I think it's George MacDonald who said Who? It's a fire of love that burns up everything in me that is not of loves kind.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Isn't that also how you and others have defined Raph?
Brad Jersak:Yeah, it's it's exactly the same thing. Yeah, yeah.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Wrath is not punishment, because I'm so pissed. Wrath is this ferocious, consuming, loving presence that removes any thing that is not loving?
Brad Jersak:Yeah, yeah. And the more thorough we allow that to be, the more free we'll be right. And the more we will be radiant with our true selves. But who wants to do that, right. So we resist and deny and hide and it hasn't served us well, self defeating.
MICHAEL CUSICK:And therefore, if we hear or read the statements about how the wrath of God is coming, that's not a fear inducing statement, at least with pejorative fear. It's a hope infused statement.
Brad Jersak:It's hopeful to the degree that I don't cling, right. So the torment of that wrath is precisely equivalent to how much I'm gripping my attachments to the things that are killing me. So what hurts about this? It's, it's me, that creates the torment by having clenched fists instead of open hands. And this is why I suspect that when someone who's severely addicted, severely broken severely, you know, and has lived a life of a hellish life when they when they meet Christ face to face. That may be quite easy. They're like, Oh, finally. Thank you. Yeah, but for those of us who have amassed a great treasury of self righteousness and would love to cling to that, I think that fire will feel hotter perhaps and and this is how St. Macrina the younger talks about it, it's the pain is proportional to my attachments, and that's what needs to go. So her idea is like, so let go now. Why Bill Why Why build ourselves up to some kind of terrible crisis when when it could be a glorious homecoming?
MICHAEL CUSICK:Yeah, I will have a half to have a separate conversation about this idea of attachments. That's often used synonymously with addictions, but then attachment theory and human development is so popular right now. And that's what I'm writing about, that we have these four core longing needs to be seen, soothe safe and secure. And we cling to or attached to some things, someone, some behavior that will give us the security that ultimately we can only find as we relinquish those things and abandon ourselves to the loving presence of God.
Brad Jersak:Very good. Very good. Yeah. And it's not about letting go of love. It's it's about letting go of the false love. So we can be held by the true love and receive what we need there. Yeah. So I can't wait to read that,
MICHAEL CUSICK:oh, well, I can't wait to read it either. It's in process, and shooting for May 1 to be done. And I would love for you to be one of the one of the readers that gives feedback, especially in light of what you've written. The fifth one is illumination, and we've kind of segwayed into it already. But this actually helps with the reorienting process.
Brad Jersak:Yeah. So, you know, we read that Christ is the light of the world, we read about the illumination of the Holy Spirit. So the metaphor there is light. And if we go back, even to the, the, you know, the Greek philosopher Socrates, who Plato tells us what He taught. And Plato writes about Socrates cave analogy where we, you, you, you have these folks that are deep inside a dark cave, they are chained to the ground, they're facing a wall, and they can see nothing, but the shadows on the wall. And they think those shatters are reality. And then somehow, inexplicably, which is a fancy word for grace. Someone He doesn't say, who breaks those chains on one of the prisoners, and the prisoner then is able to turn around. And that's where I think we get the word metanoia. It's, it's a turning around of the innermost being the eyes of the heart, that, to see that there is, I'm skipping through the analogy, but that there is a light, there is an outside and the prisoner makes their way into the light, and for the first time they see the sun, and the sunshine. And, and so it is in turning this to this light that they are changed. So So turning towards and and then my reading is that the light represents the good or God but and, and love. And so the way that he explains that is this, the very light that created your eyes to see the light, then it helps you behold the light, and it illuminates everything around you as well. So your heart isn't illuminated, your eyes are illuminated, the world around you now is illuminated so you can see reality instead of your delusions. And then ultimately, we behold the Lord, the glory of God in the face of Christ, is how Paul employs that, but it starts Second Corinthians four, it says, it starts this way, he said, the god of this age has has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so they cannot see. But then he says, the very same voice that said, let there be light, when he created the universe, has said, Let there be light in our hearts. And now we see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So there's, that's illumination. And it's connected with the word truth, of course to right, there's an unveiling that happens. And we move from then our misguided and deceived ideas about God ourselves in the world into the illumination of encountering reality, and including the reality of who you are, how precious and beloved, you are, you know, and to then that that illumination would extend across my cold effect so that I could see that in everybody on this on this block and treat them quite differently than I'm inclined to.
MICHAEL CUSICK:And that that to do that really does require illumination. And that it's not just enough to have an internet campaign about let's all love one another.
Brad Jersak:Yeah. Well, how's that worked for us? You know,
MICHAEL CUSICK:thank you, Dr. Phil. If you have time, and I think 10 more minutes, I have three topics that I want to kind of go 123. The first one is, you spend a lot of time in the first third of the book talking about how deconstruction is not a modern fad. It's not an internet craze. It's not something that those young people are doing, that this is a historical thing, and that the church always has been and always should be deconstructing my getting that right.
Brad Jersak:Absolutely. It is the great tradition. So we start with Moses, melting down the golden calf, that's deconstruction. It's a false god, that they were even called Calling the God who delivered them. And he's like, No. Then later we've got all of the Hebrew prophets, they are doing the deconstruction work of challenging the corruption in abuse in both in their society and in the temple establishment. Sometimes even among, you know, and really a guy like Jeremiah questioning this is the essence of deconstruction, questioning even the sacrificial system and what they're doing with that, and how the temple is being employed. Well, these prophets, then, ultimately, we get, we get Christ himself doing the same thing. And he's citing Jeremiah, as he's dismantling the, the lies and pulling back the curtain to show how corrupt the temple establishment had become. And so he's the pinnacle of the of the Hebrew prophetic tradition, and to whom they are pointing in the first place. And so even even the cross itself dismantles everything we knew about God or thought we did. And what we thought sacrifice was and what we thought religion is meant to be. And then we move into, you know, the apophatic tradition, the fourth century where they're saying, God is more than your ideas of God. And in fact, your ideas of God are constantly prone to become idols. And so those need to be interrogated that interrogation, then can remove those hindrances to knowing God as He truly is. And then later in the Catholic, especially the Spanish mystical tradition, dark night of the soul, Teresa of Avila, Ignatius of Loyola, they're doing again a deconstructing work around like, what is the dark night of the soul? Well, that's about breaking my the, my attachments to a particular way of knowing God and saying, What, what's what's going to show up in our hearts when, when things go dark, you know, when our five senses are turned off. And so he's a great John of the Cross is a great example of deconstruction. And then later in Christian history, we get, again, the great critics of the church from within the church like Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard, and so on. So, no, not new at all. This is the faith, in fact, at one level. And so
MICHAEL CUSICK:in this chapter where we talked about and you define the believing liberation, trauma, progression and illumination, you write a brief sentence and you say, I believe that navigating these five themes, honor the complexity, the hazards, but the necessity of this water to wind development. So it's very complex. It's fraught with peril, there's some real hazards, but not a hazard that if you cross some boundary of belief, God's going to stop loving you, but rather a hazard that your eyes will be closed, and you won't see the light or you won't see the heart of love. And then finally, the necessity. So just again, this has to happen, or we will not grow up. We'll see we'll stay stagnant.
Brad Jersak:Yeah, we in fact, I would use necessity, even stronger, like not just that this is necessary for you to do or go through, but that you are going to go through this, you will hit puberty, and you don't get a choice about that you will meet you maybe get a choice about getting married, but that's a that's a liminal space, that's bewildering, and so on, and then you're gonna get a job somewhere, you're gonna lose a job somewhere, you're going to retire, you're going to lose a spouse or a child or a parent in to death, you're going to die, you know. So there's the whole the whole journey is is necessary in the sense of like, absolutely unavoidable, right?
MICHAEL CUSICK:Well, you start you started the book, the very, very first chapter is the story of the birth canal. And my wife, of course, says I should never use any analogy or metaphor about birth, because I've not but you were you were delivered with forceps. And so the baby doesn't have a choice about whether they're coming out.
Brad Jersak:Yeah. So in fact, I have experienced birth directly, myself. Not just as a witness, but yeah, it. Wouldn't it be awful if we treated deconstruction as a birth canal that we get stuck in. But what if it's unto something repeatedly, but you know, it's heading somewhere? It's for something?
MICHAEL CUSICK:Yeah. So you're the subtitle of your book out of the embers, Faith after the great deconstruction, you've coined this phrase, the great deconstruction and you you contrast that with the Great Awakening first Great Awakening, which was George Whitfield, and some of the Puritans the second one Great Awakening, my history isn't up on that. And then there's possibility of like the third grade awakening, which some people might think is the Pentecostal tradition or other aspects of the church. I've heard people speak of a great awakening in Asia and things like that. But it's kind of implied, and I didn't yet read it, because I've not finished your book, I just got the hardcopy three days ago, it's kind of implied that the great deconstruction is also a great awakening.
Brad Jersak:It can be that's what remains to be seen for each individual person. It could also be the great and darkening or, like so think about the enlightenment. There are some things we owe to the enlightenment. I know, you know, as an Evangelical, we just treated the enlightenment as a, as this negative thing where people lost faith. Well, in fact, they also lost superstition. And so it could go both ways, right? They, and this is where we need to deconstruct deconstruction, there was a great call to religious freedom in the enlightenment, that would end religious wars. But then at the same time, that Cole became intolerant of religion and of faith and tried to expunge it from the First Nations people in from, you know, beheading priests in Paris, it's like, how progressive is that? You know, so. So it can go both ways. I think both things are happening. There's a great awakening happening and, and also a great darkness, but the contrast can can really make for a pivot in history.
MICHAEL CUSICK:I love that you called out progressivism back centuries ago, because we always think progressivism is the new thing that's happening today when it's actually been happening for millennia. Yes, yes. All right. Second topic from the end philosophy. You are a philosopher isn't isn't your PhD in political philosophy? Actually,
Brad Jersak:it includes that I mean, formally Political Theology, but it's 200 pages of philosophy to get there. Yeah.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Okay. So in a book on theology out of the embers deconstruction, that you start out talking about your own unraveling and break down. You have standalone chapters on Nietzsche Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky, Simone fey, and I think I'm pronouncing that wrong, because you speak French. And I'm reading Francoise Murray airway. I think that's how you say his last name. And I was like, I read candy. That's an undergrad. And I remember that name. That was Voltaire. You have a chapter on Voltaire about this. So I know this is excessive, and thank you for your time.
Brad Jersak:Can you have lots I have all the time in the world for you, Michael. All right.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Thank you. So first of all, you made the statement that Simone saved your life. And I know you've translated some of her works. I have signed copies that you've given me, but let's get down the pronunciation first, is it, Simone?
Brad Jersak:Yeah, well, her niece, so I went to the source. Okay. Okay. Her niece says it's Simone de Gata. And that doesn't sound properly German or French, but it's how they how she says it. So it's like VA Ye,
MICHAEL CUSICK:really, and she was a Jewish French existential philosopher.
Brad Jersak:And an atheist or agnostic at least i Well, it's certainly not a practicing Jew or Christian.
MICHAEL CUSICK:And when she started, and she died in her early 30s, yet let left behind a significant body of work.
Brad Jersak:Yeah. So what happens with her as she grows up with this activist heart? I think she also may have been on the spectrum. I think it's clear she had an eating disorder. And she spiritualize is that at times, I think or makes it an aspect of at least her justice work, like I won't eat more than the than the soldiers in the trenches, or I won't eat more than the than the factory workers who aren't making enough. But there's a disorder there of some sort, but also like she faces it and wrestles with it. And she actually comes to Christ while praying George Herbert's prayer love three, which is about he says, sit down and eat. And it's very, she's very conscious of that struggle. But she ends up having these encounters with Christ, including, like a face to face encounter for several days in a in an attic in Marseille. And I have a lot of time for anyone who I think authentically met Christ and her mother, who was a Jew said that was not a literary metaphor, it really happened. And this is as a practicing Jew. So anyway, what happens is, you know, those encounters lead her to the cross and to reorganize her mind around the whole cosmos revolves around the cross of Christ and what It represents and how it responds to the problem of evil. She was part of the French Resistance hoping to help rebuild France after the war. But she, she contracted tuberculosis while she was in England. And then I think her body because of her eating disorder didn't have the strength to fight it. The amazing thing though, is she, the Catholic priests that she knew absolutely believed she had a authentic mystical encounter with Christ, but they were still under the Council of Trent were like, you can't get into the kingdom of God unless Grace has been confirmed to you by us through baptism, and she wouldn't do it. So she's like, I'm not I'm gonna stand outside the threshold with Christ and with those you've marginalized. And then she dies. And then the papal nuncio in Paris reads her journals, like six months after her death, about how the Catholic Church wasn't Catholic enough. And he's quoting virtually the same ideas from her journals in his Pentecost sermon in Paris. That guy becomes the pope who starts Vatican two. Wow. So because she refused to be baptized into that system, she baptized the whole system, and changed the course of the Catholic Church, in my opinion.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Wow. That's amazing. And so what I mean, that in and of itself would be enough. But when you wrote in the book, that there's a sense where her work saved you. Yeah. What specifically, were you referring to through your dark night of that unraveling?
Brad Jersak:Yeah, that's exactly right. So when I was most suicidal, and I was most perplexed, and I couldn't trust God, because I saw the contradiction between the goodness of God and the affliction of man and all these theocracies wanted to solve it. And of course, Voltaire destroys those in Candide, and in his poem about the Lisbon earthquake that kills so many people while they're in church worshipping on All Saints Day, you know, so she comes along, and I'm and my mentor Ron dart at the time, he said, You need to read some of it. And she actually says, You don't have to rationalize the problem of evil with some silly theodicy anymore. That just makes God evil and evil good. And I had seen that clearly. But I didn't know what to do with it. And so she said, it's a real contradiction. It's not a paradox. It's an actual contradiction. And the there's an infinite distance between the goodness of God and the affliction of humanity. But that contradiction can grab you arrest you and throw you down. And when it throws you down, look up and they're in your abyss you will see the cross and you will see that the cross spans the infinite distance between goodness and affliction because the two intersect in that man hanging there. Absolute goodness, in that min absolute affliction, in that man and my affliction nails me to his heart. And that's how I can be healed.
MICHAEL CUSICK:And I read that because she's the one who said and forgive me for proof texting her or her famous quote of that only beauty and affliction compared to the human art.
Brad Jersak:Yeah. So she would say, well, there it is beauty and affliction, she also calls it other things like Grace and necessity and stuff like that. But the beauty the beauty is God shining through and shining most clearly through the cruciform one Wow. She talks about Christian atheism even even you know we need to be atheists at some level which is a radical a radical deconstruction but even there, you know you the folks who just prefer to God call God universe she's, she's reaching out to them and saying, isn't it amazing that even universe can actually can love you but that's God shining through that's and then so let's look at where he is shining through Oh, he does shine through the sunset that is a hug of God, His shining through this beautiful music that's that's but then she she brings you to the cross, and it shines more brightly there than anywhere else and all the other lights revolve around that. So she gets to there eventually.
MICHAEL CUSICK:That's beautiful. So I want to go through these philosophers in a kind of lightning round and you can do a minute or less on each one. Why? Why like why a chapter on Voltaire in this book on deconstruction, what can we learn from Voltaire?
Brad Jersak:Two things one is he deconstructs religious oppression through a pamphleteering that are like setting termite free inside of the structure so that we can be so that he actually argues for Tolerance. Second that He then turns on the other progressives are deconstructionist and dismantles how disingenuous they are in their critiques because they're doing the same stuff.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Kierkegaard
Brad Jersak:Kierkegaard is also he's a ruthless critic of Christendom and the ways it's become a kind of false faith. But he's speaking from the point of view of a Christ follower, and he and so, so he's quite a vicious opponent of of religiosity and the way that the church has become a herd, and created a culture. And he says, The only way to do this is we've got to follow Jesus again. Friedrich Nietzsche. Nietzsche is like Kierkegaard except for I'm afraid that he saw the same things, but instead of depositing hope, he stole hope. But what he does, so honestly, as he says, Look, I'm going to predict the next 200 years for you, here's what's going to happen, we're going to lose faith in God as we knew him. When we lose that faith, we're going to, you're going to have people who lose meaning as well. And we're not meant to lose meaning. So we're going to either go the path of Hitler, ultimately, you know, he foresees Hitler coming, or we're going to need to renounce resentment and rise above it. And I'm not sure that he himself did because he was so brokenhearted.
MICHAEL CUSICK:And didn't he take his own life?
Brad Jersak:No, he went crazy. Okay, I'm thinking
MICHAEL CUSICK:of sorry, the other despairing, existential is philosopher, and I hope that both of them, as you talked about earlier, see Jesus on the other side. And rather than Jesus looking at his watch and saying, oops, you're out of time too late, that they go, Oh, you're, you're the answer. You are the Uber match.
Brad Jersak:Yes, that's exactly right. By the way, I also would suggest that in this world, the the Simone V was the Uber match. But not like Christ. No one's like Christ, you know? Well,
MICHAEL CUSICK:the biblically the Uber Mitch would have to be actually someone who's weak, right? weak and powerless. And somebody on the spectrum though, go figure. Yeah, all right. Finally, Dostoevsky. You call them the greatest novelist of all time.
Brad Jersak:Yeah, and among the greatest theologians, but what so the overriding or overarching theme of his work is actually the power of CO suffering love and nobody presents a case against Christianity as powerfully as him. He makes Richard Dawkins looks like a schoolboy, in the character of Ivan in The Brothers Karamazov, he brings an atheist who uses the problem of evil and especially of the affliction and torment of little children, as the best case against Christianity. And in that character, Dostoevsky holds nothing back, he takes it all the way to the bottom. But there's a Russian proverb that says, when you reach think you've reached the bottom, you'll hear a knock from below. What they mean is, it's worse than you think. What I use that to say is, it's Christ knocking. And so dusty of ski in his characters does not respond to those charges against Christianity. With theology, he responds with tears, he responds with a gentle kiss. He responds with a tear of empathy coming down the cheek of a prostitute for a broken man, and that's what transforms us. And I think that's really, that's our only good approach. And hopefully people won't hear in my book, you know, another flaccid Fiat theodicy, hopefully, they will see tears that couldn't can bring transformation.
MICHAEL CUSICK:I think they will, as well as your other books. The Christ like series are more Christ like series and more Christ like God, final topic, living communion, we've talked a fair amount about the cross in this conversation and you do in the book, but toward the end the solution or maybe not the solution, the solution is God revealed on the cross and in this conjoining of suffering and goodness, but the endpoint is not correct belief and regaining what I once believed. The endpoint is what you call living communion. Yeah, and not something we have to attain or acquire, but something that is talked about living communion, and that's what you experienced in the book to bring your story full circle.
Brad Jersak:That's true. So the question is, after deconstruction, how shall we then live is their faith that come come from the ashes and what would it look like? It doesn't just look like dying and going to heaven someday that's not the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is this idea of living, living community In a direct relationship with God and Christ, but also with each other, and with each other doesn't just mean church people. So my godfather would call that presence in communion. And that is I'm present to you, you're present to me. Grace is exchanged. And God, the Holy Spirit is that grace. So I can experience those exchanges of grace all over my city with people who don't even know Christ and brings them into the living presence. Maybe it opens their eyes to a real connection that Christ has already established in them. And if they're in a place on their journey, where they can't name JESUS as that one because that there's been identity theft that has left them skeptical. My experience is that that is no barrier whatsoever to Christ to come and reach out to them, embrace them, and even transform them in a way that leaves them saying, I'm a living miracle right now. And I'm not even a Christian. Well, yeah, that's okay. Because we, the Christian brand isn't is just, it's another box that's far too limiting for how God is at work in the world right now.
MICHAEL CUSICK:So Brad, you mentioned your godfather, and I loved reading those passages of your conversations with him. And to the person who's listening, who is going through deconstruction, Who feels alone to the person that feels like they have no one to turn to. What would you say, in terms of next steps, I would say, get this book, and read this book and look for truth in it. Look for resignation with your own heart. But what would you say? pastorelli?
Brad Jersak:Yeah, so one thing is, we're going to need companions. And those companions need to be non judgmental listeners who aren't afraid of your questions, and don't try to answer them all. They need to be comfortable with companionable silence. They need to let you say things you shouldn't say, because God does look at the Psalms. And so I would, I would look around myself and say, Who are the people that that I can trust to be myself? I don't need handwringing folks trying to rein me in. And I don't need cheerleaders who can empathize with the pain I'm in and just say, Yeah, that's right, just leave your family, then that'll solve everything. No. But that tells me then some of those folks near to us, they're not experts. And maybe you need an expert, like you don't bring a plumber to a mastectomy. Don't do that. So it could be that you need a qualified somebody who's had training in this, that they're not going to harm you even more, in which case, I would make an appointment with someone from restoring the soul. Like if you need if you need like the Mayo Clinic of spirituality that's going to tend to your wounds without deepening, then Michael and his crew are your people. And then I would say, I would say, we need to we need to stop being so proud that that week, we can't hear somebody's story if they've got silver hair. So here's something you could really do. I've done this, you go down to McDonald's, or somewhere there's a hanging coffee hanging out or a barber shop or whatever and find someone with silver hair. And ask them their story and just let them talk to you and maybe shut up and listen for a while. What it does is it takes you out of yourself. You're hearing somebody else's story. You're not, you know, just a victim of this world in this life. But that's how I would shop around for a senior voice in my life who just can has lived you know, a safe way to check out. If you want to faith community. There are some where you can begin to check them out online. I think of Word of Life Church, w o l c.com. You know, they have online community. My wife's church, my wife, pastors a church notes, the bridge church in Abbotsford, they have online community
MICHAEL CUSICK:connection wlc.com That's Brian science church, right? That's correct. near St. Louis, Missouri, and I cannot echo strongly enough Brian wrote the preface or the foreword to your book and it was it was beautifully honoring of you, but also instructive just in its own right.
Brad Jersak:Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's some examples. but all of them are about this. How can we move from alienation back into communion in safe ways? I just don't believe that's how hopeless. So many people act like I can't find anyone. I'm like really? That that's not true. Yes. It's hard and you've got to be vulnerable and you have to take risks. But what if we prayed and said God, would you direct me to someone who's safe? In my case? Although I attend a monastery for church, it's my 12 Step Brothers unbelievable communion absolute safety and I'm I'm fellowshipping with people who are Christians X Christians, agnostics Wicca behind. And what we have in common is a desire for God to transform us and set us free. And it seems like when they pray, and I pray, if there's only one God, I'm assuming that then that God is hearing us and he's he's changing us together, regardless of the label they put on him. So that's another possibility.
MICHAEL CUSICK:12 Step. Well, Dr. Bradley jurrasic I'm honored to call you friend. I'm always so grateful to be able to have conversations with you because I feel like I just went through Harvard Divinity School, Denver seminary, Ted's theological school and Dallas Seminary, like the best of all worlds, and maybe even the best of some not so great worlds brought together i My heart is light and encouraged on Friday afternoon, but but I just, I have a greater hunger to know God and live in him after talking with you. So thank you.
Brad Jersak:That's good news. Thank you as well, I just love you so much, Michael, I believe in what you're doing and I'm, I look forward to the next time I'm with you in person.
Brian Beatty:So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut you're in our intensive counseling programs in Colorado, allow you to experience deep change and half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com