If we line up 100 men and women from 100 different churches, you're listening to this. You're one of those who get grace and love Jesus in wonderful fill the Great Commission of going and making disciples. That's you listening to this. You're probably and then I come to you and say, Hey, whoever's listening to this, how are you doing on your disciplemaking? You're probably going not well, because I don't know what to do and who to do it with.
Brian Beatty:In Matthew 28, Jesus presents the great commission by saying, Go and make disciples of all nations, and teach them to obey everything I've commanded you. So how are we as a church at discipling? A joint Barna Group and navigators research project revealed confusion among leaders and followers regarding discipleship. Worse yet, the data indicates that most discipleship efforts are ineffective, with only 25% of Christians saying they were in a discipleship relationship. Hello, and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. On today's podcast, Michael welcomes the president and CEO of true face, Robbie angle. If you've not heard of true face, they provide content, relational experiences, and leader development to help people in teams live authentically and experience freedom. We featured a few conversations with former true face leaders Bill Thrall and John Lynch. So be sure to check out the show notes for links. We're excited to hear from Robbie today as he talks about his passions for ministry, and how relational discipleship is foundational for Kingdom growth. So Now without any further delay, here's your host, Michael John Cusack.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Robby Engel, welcome to the restoring the soul podcast.
Robby Angle:It is an honor. I'm super excited to be on this with you. Me too.
MICHAEL CUSICK:We were joking around and bantering for five minutes or so before we actually hit record, so to speak. So I think this is going to be fun, because every time you and I talk, it's just a hoot. We have an interesting relationship where we have known a lot of the same people. We've talked, we've interacted I never technically met you until about two years ago, when we met at the apprentice gathering in Wichita and speaking there together. And then you came in you staffed and served at our restoring this whole men's weekend and really got to know each other well. And we've kind of made that an annual thing in Wichita.
Robby Angle:Yeah, the first time I met you, I was like a fan girl. I was a fan from afar, because you had endorsed my book before we even met, and then I got to meet you because I'd, you know, been a fan from afar for a lot of years and finally got to hang. And then I quickly turned it into a free counseling session over I think the second time we hung out over breakfast, I was like, here's some issues, Michael, I just need to be selfish right now and working with you. And yeah, it was effective, man, it was awesome.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Well, that's one of my favorite things to do is to, to meet people that are kind of in the similar ilk ura even though you don't work, doing therapy, you're a trained, licensed professional counselor in Georgia, where you live, and also an author and I want to do a quick shout out to your book, The cure for groups, which is either a really arrogant, arrogant title, the cure for groups, or it's a brilliant title, which it is, and the subtitle. It's a book that I had no problem endorsing, and no problem recommending the cure for groups, how to lead a group that people will remember the rest of your lives. And it's brilliant, because it's leadership principles related to what you need to be paying attention to when you lead a group. It's not about techniques, right?
Robby Angle:That's right. Yeah, I mean, group dynamics, like God's designed us to grow through the context of relationships. But relationships that actually lead to growth are really hard to come by. Most of us don't have that. And so it's not more teaching Best Practices framework that leads to the type of authentic real relationships that transform our lives. It's the art of relational dynamics, which is more of an art of principles of leadership to create a conducive environment for growth, which is why most small groups life groups, cell groups are lame and not transformational, even though they should be and could be transformational. So the hope is that we help leaders know the principles that would help them lead more effectively.
MICHAEL CUSICK:And the key ingredient is not the leadership The group in terms of techniques, but we were alluding to it before the podcast, the key ingredient is really relationship. And that's what people remember about a group not. On the third week, we studied this particular passage, and it changed my life, but rather how I felt and how I experienced others and how I was experienced. And that's
Robby Angle:the heavy lifting that is too hard to do in a two hour PowerPoint presentation on how you know, best practices or how to have hard conversations. But that's the art because a leader that creates an environment that's conducive for relationships, is an inwardly sound leader. And the core of any of us as men and women, is rooted in how we see God and how we see ourselves. And that's not a two hour PowerPoint presentation. But that's the key, dynamic, that principle of leadership to create a space for relationships, that takes a lifetime. And, but there are things that we can do that that help us.
MICHAEL CUSICK:So anybody who's listening, if you are leading a group, if you know someone or love someone who leads a group, get this book, The cure for groups, how to lead a group, that people will remember the rest of their lives, because there's too many groups that are focused on curriculum, and do this, do that. And it's canned. And it's not transformational in the way that it could be. So that's a great segue. You are the president and CEO of true face. And true faced used to be the organization that built for all John Lynch, and Bruce McNichol, he was kind of the founder and the architect of it, but it was the message that the three of those developed through writing over a number of years, and I have said that true faced and now true face is kind of the best kept secret in the kingdom. Because it's not Campus Crusade, it's not, you know, the Bible project or something that has a very, very high visibility. But the reason why it's the best kept secret is that for going on three decades, I have had a firsthand view of watching the message of true faced change the lives of leaders from the highest level of organizations on down, and I have seen two organizations within their highest level of leadership be transformed because of the work of the individual leader. So Bill is now in his mid 80s. John is in his mid 60s, I think Bruce is 71, or 72.
Robby Angle:All of those men just turned 70. He doesn't get the big seven out of
MICHAEL CUSICK:Lynch is now 74. Listeners, I have podcasts with Bill Thrall and John Lynch. Bruce is a friend of mine, every time I'm in Arizona, we get together and visit. But you have been given the mantle, so to speak. And I was really delightfully surprised when I said, So what's your passion? With true face? What are you doing? How you didn't want to write a best selling book, how you didn't want to become a speaker, like John is now and run around the country, you don't want to create a big program, you want to have a different kind of influence. So what I'd like to talk about for this interview, if we can just frame it, tee it up, is what your passion is, as you lead this ministry that's now in it's kind of second and a half generation. And then what that looks like in terms of the resources that are available for listeners, because one of the things you guys have done is either given resources away for free, or you have made things very, very affordable, including the books that you publish, and things like that. So I'll let you jump in from there.
Robby Angle:Yeah, before I answer your question, I will I'll give a nod to the transition because you're right, I just survived three and a half years of founder transition, stepping into those three guys shoes, not one guy, but three guys. And so it is God's favor that we're alive as a ministry after three and a half years. And it was fascinating because before I took the job, I was talking to Bill Thrall about a case study of another mega church leader was wrestling through transition. And he said whether or not an organization can transition from the founder is whether they can entrust and empower the next generation early and soon enough. So whether a leader can entrust and empower the next generation early and soon enough, that means I I trust you. I don't understand it. I don't get it. You're talking about a vision that's different. And it's probably wrong based on my understanding. But I'm also going to empower you, I'm going to give you the keys to the car, I'm going to give you the steering wheel the money, so I don't get your vision, but I trust it and I'm going to empower you early and soon enough and that takes a lot of humility. And so I have got to firsthand masters in humility by watching Seeing Bruce being nickel and Bill and John in trust and empower me with the keys to this thing. And so, in doing that the board said, Okay, reimagine an expression of a ministry beyond John Bell and Bruce. And I said, okay, good luck, is what I told myself and I and advisory team Michael, Reggie Campbell was sitting in my living room who, who you know, and they were three guys, and they said, Yeah, less than a 20% chance you're gonna be there within two years at true face, because it's just, you know, it's a message based ministry with guys who shoes you can't fill. And I'm a strategic leader, I see three to five years out pretty clearly, and I have the courage to charge that hill, bro, I have not. This has been such a disorienting three and a half years because I haven't, I feel like God's asking me to run a marathon. And to learn how to pace like a marathon runner not, but I'm built as a sprinter as an entrepreneurially minded guy. And he's giving me like a 10th of a mile directions at a time. So it's been a whole new chapter of learning to trust God, because typically, I see the future in charge towards it. I don't see the future as clearly as I usually do. And it's so disorienting that he's given me like a 10th of a mile direction and going, here's the next right thing. Can you trust me with this? And so it's been three and a half years of doing that, and how God has orchestrated it already. I'm like, God, I'm along for the ride here. You know, God does not need me, he does not need true face. He does not need Kusik or restoring the soul, but we get to be a part of His kingdom stuff. And that next right thing, that next step so far today, and looking at the past three and a half years and looking forward as best I can. We are developing relational Grace based discipleship resources to help people journey the 18 inches from their head to their heart to help stuck Christians experienced deeper relationships.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Okay, stop. Back up. Say that, again, that sounds like you spent about two and a half years with a mission statement, branding specialist. I know that you didn't in one sense, because it comes out of your heart. But that's the clearest statement that I've ever heard about what somebody does for ministry. So backup and say that again.
Robby Angle:Let's see if I know it is we develop Grace based and relational discipleship resources, to help people experience deeper relationships with God and others to go the 18 inches from their heads of their heart, in order to experience this, this way of following Jesus that we read about in the New Testament of peace, and freedom, but is is beyond where knowledge and religion brings us right. And so now I'm just going tangent, like so many of us as Jesus followers, we do the church thing, the obey thing, we get salvation, and we assumed sanctification, connected to this piece, this freedom, this Christ in me, experience, not knowledge will come after 20 years of following Jesus and obeying and sending less, you know, and so we have this equation more time. Sorry, more, right behavior plus less wrong behavior equals godliness. Because we have this religious framework. And that's nice, because I can control and activate towards that. And then we wake up in our 30s, or 40s, or 50s, worn out and tired and going, Yeah, I mean, this is a good club, I feel good that I'm going to heaven. This, this Christian thing is nice. And it's a nice framework for doing life better, and being better life, but I'm not. I read about the streams of living water and peace and the fruit of the Spirit being love and joy and peace. And that's, that's unknown to me. So we think the transformation that happens with people moving from their head to their heart happens relationally therefore, so God has designed us to grow through the context of relationships, but relationships that actually lead to spiritual growth are hard to come by. So we're developing Grace based relational discipleship resources in order to help them apply truth, trust truth, by applying it in relationships, which looks like love, which is discipleship. Jesus said, the definition of discipleship is by the way you love one another. That's how they'll know that you're my disciples. Love is a relationally transferred and experienced thing. It's why we're designed, it's all pretty simple. And we spent a lifetime navigating the complexities of applying it and experiencing it.
MICHAEL CUSICK:So because I know you and have enjoyed a lot of great conversation over meals and such. Will you talk about where this message first began to take root in you because this is not a message where you can go to the library or The Christian bookstore and just go, Oh, here's a subject I want to study Grace based relational discipleship that moves me from my head to my heart. You like everyone else that's been touched by the true face message began to experience it first in your own life. And you were a high level leader at NorthPoint where you ran was at the Adult Ministries that you ran there, Andy Stanley's church and Georgia mega church. You know, that's for many people like the last stop. That's what a lot of young leaders aspire to. But during a lot of that success, that's when you began to discover this message. Tell me about that.
Robby Angle:It was actually before that, before that, dude, my father loves me so much, that he knows the depth of my issues and my pride. And so he it is His grace, He led me come to the end of myself as early as I did. And a lot of us come to the end of ourselves through brokenness, and few of us come through success. I'm a firstborn son, eight Enneagram type a whole across the board, high achiever, high drive high everything. And so I was like, Okay, God, you know, Billy Graham are a missionary in Africa for us, like young driven Christians. And so I was 2425. I ended up in a miraculous way out of the blue got an opportunity to go to northern Pakistan, al Qaeda territory at doing post disaster response work with Samaritan's Purse. This was in oh, five after an earthquake killed about 120,000 people. So I'm in northern Pakistan run in the region at 2425. I have a team of 40 I get a million dollars in grants, we're doing amazing ministry. Like, we're in villages where we're the first Westerners they've ever seen and therefore representing Jesus to people for the like, leading the guy to Christ. I mean, just a Muslim guy. I mean, do an incredible ministry, everything dude was like, everything I had hoped for, to be a badass for Jesus. And I'm, I'm like, missionaries in Africa are lightweight. I'm in northern Pakistan, Archiva territory and God's favor on favor. And there was about it was about seven months into that, and I felt so disoriented. I was so internally, you know, the better words for this, but disoriented, and I was I was a mess and going everything on papers, everything I ever hoped for, which was to be a badass for Jesus to live a life of purpose to look back at ating. Without I wish I should have and I'm like, ahead of schedule as a missionary in northern Pakistan. And so everything on paper is everything I've ever hoped for. Internally, I was a mess. And I was on a roof. And the one of the few times, I felt like that subtle Whisper of the Spirit that was so significant that it had to be God. I felt like him going Robby, stop. I don't need you to do anything for me. Thank you. I love how I made you. I love you. I love you watching and watching you hustle with your gifts, but I don't need you. I'm good. And I'd rather you go back to the states and be a janitor and a high school and aware of my love for you for 10 minutes today than doing 15 hours of missions in Pakistan. And Michael, everything in me was like the immediate split second after that was No, no, no, God, God, I will do anything except nothing for you. And then the split second Holy Spirit way he does it that instantaneous truth, second order change that happens. Right? Then he said, That's the ceiling of your experience of grace, of love. Just receive my love for you. Because it was so scary. My response if I'll do anything except nothing for you. So I spent about five years in counseling, processing the depth of my pride, I had to earn God's love, I can't receive it. It's so much easier for me, it keeps me in control. And so I did a deep dive because I had read practice of the presence of God and Mere Christianity and humility by Andrew Murray. And I had no idea of those principles. Amazing Grace by Nancy, I'd read all that stuff. And I started realizing how I didn't understand any of it because I couldn't receive it. So that was where God implanted these truths in my life. Six years after that, I'm in a small group, I read the cure. And I said, this is the clearest articulation of the depth of these truths that I've been wrestling with as a part time job for the past six years. Who are these guys? I was just a fan. I infused the cure into every single group at the church. I bought enough boxes of books. They called me and said, Who are you? And I said, I'm a huge fan of you. Oh guys, right and stuff in Phoenix. So that's how I came into the message personally and then later found true face.
MICHAEL CUSICK:I'm so glad you shared that because I think there's a lot of people listening that can go with your idea of I'll do anything for God except nothing. That idea of No, I've got to somehow prove myself and I knew you'd been in Pakistan and you were in Myanmar too, right at one point yeah. sort of known as Burma. But I didn't realize the timing of all of that. So really, God set you up to be able to move into a space and a base where you could really internalize this in your own life, give it away. And it's uncanny how God brought you together with those guys. Because there's so many hoops that those guys in Phoenix had in the Atlanta area.
Robby Angle:It is an adventure that I'm just following now, one day at a time, and it's been fun so far.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Can you I don't want you to do like a greatest hits of true face quotes and quips but the authors, Bruce and John and Bill, they do have some pretty amazing one liners, about grace and about the kingdom and about the gospel. What are three big ideas that when you read the cure, and I kind of cut my teeth on the book, true face. So if people are wondering where the the name true face comes from, it's because Bill and Bruce and John wrote a book called True faced navpress. That was one of their best selling books, if not the best selling book for many years. And then that book was republished and repackaged by your organization in called the cure. Yeah, what are the big principles that stand out from that at that time when you said, Wow, this is the best articulation?
Robby Angle:Yeah, I'll give you the two that stand out. And then my personal one, and you can see how it intersects into this noose, new new season of this ministry expression. But the first one that hit me hard is, do we see ourselves as sinners striving to be saints, or saints who occasionally sin? That question, the tagline of the cure is what if God isn't who you think he is? And neither are you? And that question, do we see ourselves as sinners striving to be saints or saints who occasionally sin captures a lot of theology and identity and motive of striving, or receiving how we experienced love all that stuff. The second one talks to the expression of some of this lit following Jesus. And it's, what if it's not as important that anything ever gets fixed, it's that nothing has to be hidden. What if is less important that anything ever gets fixed, but that nothing has to be hidden. And the reality of transformation and change correlated to being known with God, and with ourselves and with others, as the foundational, the foundation that's more conducive for change to be built upon it? That is the truth, which is very different than most discipleship resources, teaching counseling that, do this, learn this. And that will lead to the change you're looking for. It speaks to the heart of and the connection to being known and loved as the catalyst for change.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Wow, I want to literally have you come back and do a whole hour podcasts on this idea of less important for things to be fixed and more important than nothing's hidden, because that cuts to the relational core, not only of God Himself, relational Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the relational aspect of the gospel, but it cuts to the core of community, right that so much Christian community is focused upon, here's the right thing to do in line your life up that way versus let's live together in an authentic way where we don't have the kind of secrets that impinge the gospel.
Robby Angle:You said it, that's it, that that is and that that is so difficult, and a lot of the the architecture of our environments that are designed for growth, that DNA is not infused into the structure of those environments, from counseling environments, to church environments, to relational dynamics, even even our family systems with our kids. Does that principle transfer translate to our how we lead our homes as men and women? Does that transfer to our relationship with God vertically, because it's that that fixing thing keeps me in control rooted in my pride, and therefore I lean towards religious teaching in a religious framework that says more good behavior plus less rock wrong behavior equals godliness. And that's anything but biblical because Jesus said you couldn't. That's why I did, and therefore sanctification is found in receiving, not achieving. So my last quote, that I took from another mentor, who I mentioned earlier, Reggie is that I've assumed into my own life and into the DNA of true face, is that more time with fewer people equals greater Kingdom impact? Say that again? More time with fewer people equals greater Kingdom impact. Jesus said a model of relational discipleship The master plan of evangelism that we're experiencing the benefits of, but we've gone a long way. And we're struggling with that right now is the capital C church in the west of what discipleship, relational discipleship looks like. Because it's hard and unsexy and slow. And it's a framework and an art of relational dynamics with more people for greater Kingdom impact, that's hard. But that's where he modeled that's what's missing in the church. And that's at the center of a lot of these resources that we're hoping to equip the body of Christ with as a small little ministry, to accelerate, again, to accelerate with a framework of grace based on relational discipleship resources, the ministry that, that they are called to do, which is the relationships that they're involved with.
MICHAEL CUSICK:I was also talking with you, or maybe this was in the prayer before we started, everything that's wrong in the world today can be fixed with relationship. And, you know, from from politics to climate change. And one could argue, you know, whether or not we can actually fix that, but that relationship is the solution. And you're just honing in on that again, and again, and again. And again.
Robby Angle:You said it on the true face podcast Connect for me the difference between that because attachment, what was the quote, you said about attachment? Because attachment connected to relationship, as the source of our theology, our problems for the world, all of this comes down to relationships and attachment. How did they how are those connected?
MICHAEL CUSICK:Well, I think I was quoting, andI Kolber, who said, when we were together, about nine months ago, and she said that all theology is attachment, and all attachment is theology. So the psychological idea of attachment is that I have a secure sense, a predictable, reliable sense that I can get my needs met from you, and from others, without having to lose myself, I can be seen, soothe and safe. And therefore I can be secure that, that I'm able to connect with you in a way where I can really be me. And you can connect with me where you can really be you. And the scientific aspect of attachment is that there's a neurobiological reality to that, that to the degree to which I get my needs met, developmentally and growing up, that's the degree to which I'll be able to connect with others and ultimately with God. But this is where you're the guest people. People can can can listen to me on your podcast, which is out there, but
Robby Angle:you don't listen to him. I'm interrupting and taking over this podcast, hey, rewind, like 30 seconds to hear what he just said again, and because I've been spending a lifetime, meditating, and contemplating the depth of that, and I think spiritual formation, discipleship is all around that. Because what you just said, which Trust, which is the DNA that true faith speaks to a lot, is just the trust unlocked love, through that attachment of receiving that the in and what you just said about attachment, and the secure connection, man that comes that like vertically and horizontally, that's it, it's all relationship, and then it's all that do I trust God with to meet those needs to make me feel seen to safe and secure, I can't earn it, I have to receive that. Right. And that's the essence of this way of following Jesus and spiritual formation.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Well, you know, I think it was Bill and Bruce, I don't think John was part of the original book called the ascent of a leader that they published with Josie bass. And that book goes back to what 90 or 89, even and before the cure, and true faced but that book talked about environments of grace and high trust cultures. And so they were pastors and businessmen going into the business world and the educational world, and to some degree, the church world. And talking about cultures of grace and high trust, and people were instead of going, What are you talking about? They were responding, because everyone intuitively knew that, and how many, you know, corporate meltdowns are there are how many 1000s of people get laid off when there's not a culture of trust, like what happened at Twitter recently. And so I just finish this thought otherwise, I'll forget it, but the scene, soothe, safe, secure, those are four, scientifically empirically validated things that are needed in order for trust to occur. And without an infant and a child and a teenager and an adult being seen, soothe and safe, they cannot trust, they will hide, they will be distant, they will avoid or they will be anxious, trying to get their needs met and there's no trust. So, you know, you're asking me about attachment but the founders of your organization that you now run, they've been writing about this same language but almost in business terms in a way, that's really cool.
Robby Angle:So here, here's another quote from the true face, guys, they define love, as the process, the, of giving and receiving needs being met, the process of the giving, and the receiving of needs being met, not needs like money or whatever, how do we love each other, we give and receive needs, we meet each other's needs, and we give and receive that needs like being seen, soothe safe and secure. So I get to receive that which I trust God, allowing me to receive that from him from identity, and from you as my brother. And that's that vertical, horizontal. And by the way, that's it, love God and love others. And by this, they'll know that you're my disciples love, purpose of life discipleship. It's all that. Yeah, yeah, saving and giving those needs have seen su safe and secure.
MICHAEL CUSICK:And then I would be remiss to not say that the true face definition of humility. Do you know, you know what I'm talking about when you say the definition of humility that Bruce and John and you say, because I mess it up. So I've heard them say over and over that humility is trusting God and one other person with who I am, which is I think it cuts to the core, Merton said that humility is being precisely the person that I am at any given time. But it cuts to the core, that humility is not thinking less of myself, humility is not thinking of myself less, it's actually showing up as I really am, and daring to be me with you. And then that opens up this door to grace, which is odd. Now I can get a need met, I can be loved for who I really am. So this is a thing I get really passionate about, but that I talk from time to time about authors, people and organizations that have impacted my life. But for the past 25 years, true face has just been like this kitchen sink that gets turned on and off and outcome, these big deposits of water and cup fill, but it's it's it's really, very deeply influenced my thinking. And I feel really grateful to have gotten to know all three of the men that handed it off to you. And I've got to share this. I know I said this with you publicly, because I think this will tweak somebody's mind in a way that might be necessary. I told you I was having breakfast with Bruce McNichol hands. I said, Tell me you're at you're at 70. And I think now he was close to 72. I said, What are you learning about God? And what are you excited about at at 70? He didn't hesitate. You know how he kind of talks kind of low sometimes. And you've got to lean in. He said, I'm looking forward to disappointing people at an accelerated rate. And I took out a pen. I was like, I don't have any idea what he just said, but I need to write it. Yeah, because it sounds important. I said, Wait a minute, let me ask the question again, what are you excited about? And what is God teaching you? I'm looking forward to disappointing people at an accelerated rate. And that led into a whole conversation. And it brought up a combination of terror in meeting and excitement. And the terror was, I'm going to have to walk off the stage, there's, you know, I'm 59. This August, I'm not 70 like him, but there's a time coming, when it's appropriate and right for me to go, you know what I'm handing it off to a Robbie or whoever, or I don't need to write another book. Because maybe I've said, everything that I need to say, and whatever I want to write about is really not necessary. So what he said was saying no to others, saying no to good opportunities, seeing the purpose and meaning of my life as the hike that I do every morning when I get up and climb up such and such mountain in Phoenix and just sit and spend time with God. And then I said, Well, what do you do spending time with God, you know, waiting for him to give me the name of this new book. He's like, not much. I just, I just sit there. And we kind of enjoy the sunrise together. And I was like, That's it, you know, that same idea of that it really is about relationship. It really is just about being so I want to hear from you and your passion. But there's so much of who you are, that aligns with what they have given me, which is why I've always enjoyed you and been drawn to you. But before we finished the podcast, I want you to talk specifically about the program that you have deeply researched the need, you have reflected for three plus years, and you put together an utterly free resource that people can make their own and take advantage of that I think is brilliant and transformational. All right, that's the long drumroll. And now, take it away this this nine month discipleship program.
Robby Angle:So I'll add to the drumroll because I'm just, you know, good leader scratch to their own itch, you design stuff that you want. And then other friends who have are like minded want the same thing. I have led eight years of groups, where I've tried to implement the principle of more time with fewer people equals greater Kingdom impact. There's been eight groups. Actually, tonight. I'm on month five out of the month, not the nine month initiative. And for couples in their 20s are coming over to Emily and I's house from from six o'clock to nine o'clock tonight. And we're going to open up our lives and our home and do life with these couples there who I'm praying for who I'm loving whom I have in my life to. It's relational discipleship, and with intentionality. And it's the funnest thing that I personally do in the most impactful thing I do. And I've been a missionary in northern Pakistan led Adult Ministries at NorthPoint. Everybody's golf clap and right who cares? Like at the end of the day, the thing I love most Michael, is these as a framework to do this better. And so when I was at North Point, I needed leaders. And so I said, Hey, we need to develop leaders, which is the core of a leader, his or her theology and identity. How do we do that? Alpha? Well, let me back up one more need. If we line up 100 men and women from 100 different churches, you're listening to this, you're one of those who get grace and love Jesus, and wonderful fill the Great Commission of going and making disciples, that's you listening to this, you're probably and then I come to you and say, Hey, whoever's listening to this, how are you doing on your disciplemaking, you're probably going not well, because I don't know what to do and who to do it with. And so I think alpha is incredible, because it's a framework for relational evangelism, that's helped people do relational evangelism. It's just a framework. It's not a process, not a prescription, it's a framework of best practices to make it more effective. So I've spent about 10 years with the smartest people I could find, I haven't come up with any original ideas, I get the smartest people I could find and said, there's a gap in the church, we've lost the art of relational discipleship, we don't know what to do and who to do it with, to develop future leaders in our church and for individuals who just want to invest in people around them. And so I've studied for about 10 years, the best practices, and we have put that into a framework, a nine month framework for churches to implement typically as a leader development pipeline, because it helps a leader develop in his or her theology and identity. And it's a nine month framework that's free and not prescriptive. But you can put your fingerprint on it your church on it, you individually on it, as Michael, I want to be in your group, and you need to lead a group in the next 12 months. Because if you would get through it Michael and say, bro, you just made this so easy. I you thought it everything you made, you took the guesswork out of it, you told me the secret sauce, the best practices. And what it is, it's a you meet once a month for three hours over nine months, you and a co leader with six to eight others who are who are Christians who are hungry to grow. Think about it as a Christian who's hungry to grow, you invite them into this invitation type only group that you're going to pour into with a level of intentionality and depth. That's more than a normal small group that they're used to, you're going to be once a month for three hours, there's going to be some les counseling type assignments in between months, and some reading that you'll process when you're together as a group, and the DNA of true faces infused all throughout it. And you do an overnight trip together on month three. And that's where you share stories to really continue a base of of relationship. And yeah, it's a framework that it's turnkey, and it makes it easy and anybody can do it if you got a true face.org Go to true face journey true face.org forward slash journey or go to on the website. It's true face journey, and email me Robbie at true face.org And I will respond and let you know because I'm going to lead a group every year, the rest of my life most every year, the rest of my life. This is my priority because it's the funnest ministry I get to be a part of so I made this for myself and I'm following the plan and it just makes it easier even down to like, Hey, you didn't read the book this month? Here are three open ended questions to look like a amazing facilitator that you can just tee up the conversation time with and it's it's a process oriented thing. It's like a counseling type assignments every month that you journey through, and I could spend a whole nother podcast processing the DNA, the art and the science of spiritual formation baked into the nine month journey. Because it is it is not simple. But the good stuff like AAA for example, balances art of the 12 traditions with the science the framework of content in the 12 traditions, sorry, the 12 traditions in the 12 steps as the science either of those independently or amazing trial traditions and 12 steps great together. It's led to a movement that is transferable, and it captures the essence of both. That was our hope and the nine month and yeah,
MICHAEL CUSICK:that is the mic drop right there, we're not going to stop. But that's the juice of what I was so excited for people to hear. I want to just back up. So true. face.org forward slash journey is how people access this. And it's a free program, where if people have believers in their life that want to go deeper, and because I know you and I know the content, this could also be for non Christians who are hungry or exploring or who just want relationship. There's a book called The Celtic way of evangelism, and they believe in belonging precedes believing. So I'm part of a community, like you talked about with alpha. And so this could be for non Christians, but it's a way for people who, and I talk to people like this all the time. I feel like God's calling me to go get a counseling degree. And I'm like, No, you know, I think you're wonderful as an accountant or a homemaker, I think you're just really hungry to deeply impact people and walk with them. This is the ticket. It doesn't cost them anything. And again, you provide all the leadership questions. True or false, a person does not need to be an experienced lay facilitator to lead one of these groups.
Robby Angle:The goal is you get through this and you go, y'all made this so easy. And you made me look amazing, because good, amazing leaders have a framework that we use questions to lead others to the truth in the process for them. And so we even set you up with that framework and the questions to help provide this guess just a framework and everything from training to tips, tricks, it's all there. And I've did this for about 10 years, and I've read 600 surveys, and we surveyed spouses and they in when you read a survey that says what happened to my husband or wife, they met once a month for three months, and it led to this type of change. That's just the fun part of this that we all want to be a part of, and we don't know who to do with and how to do it. And the biggest bottleneck is I don't know, you know, if I'm in my 50s, and I want to lead a group in their 40s, I don't know, 40 year olds who are hungry. Yeah, you do. And you have five friends that you go does, I'm doing this group where I'm gonna open my life and intentionally pour my cup and others Do you have anybody you want to nominate? They know people and then if you get one hungry person, you tell them, Hey, do you have three or four friends that you would want to invite into this? Let them do the work. There's even down to the best practices of forming a group we try to serve you and the ministry you're doing to set you up.
MICHAEL CUSICK:You know, this touches on a question that I asked Bill Thrall back in 2007. He was a speaker at the NAPS national conference and I was doing a breakout group. And before podcasts were a thing. He let me turn on the microphone and record him. So I have a podcast with him. And I said, Alright, so I hear from so many people that I read through Phase Two, I read the cure, or I heard you speak somewhere. And man, this touched my life. But there's no one in my community that I can do this with and like, like I was a complete fool with great kindness. He looked at me goes Well, Michael, you just like, approach someone and say I read this great book, do you want to sit down and meet on a regular basis? So it's like, oh, I never thought of that. Why? Because I always want an expert or somebody there to make it happen for me. And you have done that you have filled the gap. And the couple questions I have is people are listening, because they might you know, they might be saying I'm ready to Call now operators are waiting and standing by how many people does an individual need to get this going? Could it be with one other person or two other people? Is there? Is there kind of like a minimum limit?
Robby Angle:Yeah, the true face journey is a group discipleship process. There's a different DNA of a group environment, as you know. And so I would think, and we love co leader, so you pick a co leader to help tag team this thing. And then we've seen groups with his three small is kind of five or six total, up to kind of 10 is the sweet spot range, but you can test it out. If it's one on one, we actually have a true face conversation, which is a one on one framework tool. Because what Bill said is true, but that's too difficult because no one wants to read a book so I disagree with Bill Thrall This is probably the only time in my life. I just get to say that so I'm going to take advantage of it. A better way is we made this conversational framework because you and I we want to hang out be friends, especially men and all of us we don't know how to progress from I want to build a relationship with this guy to actually do that because it's a no man's land of awkwardness. And so we developed a true face conversation which is eight conversations to that I can go Hey, Michael, you're gonna do this conversation thing with me. It's a you watch a five minute video during the day and then you and I talk for like 15 minutes around the Three open ended questions and we process that truth. So it's a lot of the DNA of true faiths distilled into eight foot 345 minute teachings with good open ended questions, the process and that journey, you can find that true face.org too. But that's an another example of a resource, Grace based relational discipleship resource that we want to equip churches and individuals with. Yeah, experience these type relationships, because, man, I think we were made for him.
MICHAEL CUSICK:So the journey with the group is called the true face journey at true face.org forward slash journey, and the name of the conversation is what true face conversation.org forward slash conversation? Yeah, just true.
Robby Angle:face.org. And then you'll see the conversations on there on one of our resources.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Okay. As you're talking about this, Robbie, this is about something organic, and it's about me saying, who are the couple of people in my life that I'd want to do this with, we have talked about, you know, doing it together, etc. So as people are thinking about this, this is a beautiful opportunity to take that nudge of, you know, I've been wanting to be wanting to do something a little more formal with these people that I meet up with coffee, or people from Sunday school that were kind of like, yeah, I go to counseling, you go to counseling, or I listened to this podcast, and it's a great way to take it to the next level. And you have actually created this resource, what you called white labeled. Can you talk about that?
Robby Angle:Yeah, if you're a bigger church, you're not going to infuse a discipleship initiative as part of your leader development. Because big churches go we are we're gonna develop our own well, or you could partner with somebody is done, spend 10,000 hours of sunk costs nerding out on it with the best leaders I could find around the country, who's made it for you. So that is given it to you, because that's our hope, like, you can call it first Baptist leader development groups. It's a nine month thing to develop a pipeline of future and potential leaders in our church to lead our small groups, students all that stuff. Or you can call it can you talk first Baptist discipleship groups, intensives, whatever, call it steal, it will give you everything so you don't have to steal because stealing is bad, and is good, because we're here to serve the capital C church and serve others, which is the legacy I inherited, which is so cool. A true face now a 28 year old ministry, we want to be small and nimble and equip you with resources for the ministry, God's put you into do put you into and so as long as more people fall in love with Jesus, who cares, call it whatever you want, name it, we'll give it all to you. We want we want to help serve
MICHAEL CUSICK:the church. That's really remarkable to me, as we were talking about this, I think it was you who said, you know, take this and make it a restoring the soul thing. And I just think of so many people who do our intensives and then want the next step, and the curriculum, and the books, and what you're all about just dovetails so beautifully with what we're about here about the heart, that movement, the 18 inches from the head to the heart. So you know, kudos and blessings to you and your organization and your board for, for giving it away.
Robby Angle:All right, I got two to dues for us out of this call. You ready? Kusik? I'm ready. We need to do a rewrite of the ascent of a leader update that baby? How fun would that be? And the second thing is that true face conversation, the eight conversations, you need to do that, like for your guys coming out of your restoring so weekend's your girls, the or your couples coming out of your intensives as an actionable conversation framework for people coming out of your intensives to process those things. I'll give you all the scripts from the conversations, you'll make them way better. You'll put your pretty face in front of the camera to shoot them. And then I'll learn from that steal back and we'll keep stealing from each other making it better.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Okay, I have a team of people that we just met talking about post weekend stuff. So this is behind the scenes conversation with you. You've been there so you can see how it would how it fit in and we don't want to create any programs that are powerful, and then just leave people we want to launch people into something and the discipleship journey that we're all on is really a long term one. And I think most of us have experienced, stumbling along the way with what now what next. And so often the best that we can do is find a new podcast or read a new book, and that's wonderful, but it's the relationship that transforms. Robby. It is always good to talk with you. And the only thing I wish was different in this conversation was that we're sitting across from each other face to face having a cup of If you're a meal like we've been able to do in the past, so inspiring, equipping, and personally, this just makes me want to go through one of these groups. I'm so grateful for the time today. Thank you so much.
Robby Angle:I love you in what you're doing. Thanks, man.
Brian Beatty:So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut you're in our intensive counseling programs in Colorado, allow you to experience deep change in half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com