Episode 262 - Laura Barringer, "The Ripple Effects of Toxic Church Culture"

"I still have friendships, friends that still will not speak to me because what I publicly said about Willow Creek." - Laura Barringer

Laura Beringer, co-author of "A Church Called Tove," shares her experience with toxic church culture and explores the patterns and habits of toxicity, including a narcissist culture, fear culture, resistance to justice, celebrity culture, and leadership culture. She emphasizes the need to create a culture of goodness that resists abuses of power and promotes healing.

Key Points
1. Toxic church cultures prioritize the institution over individuals and often operate from a place of fear and control.
2. Individuals may experience a loss of innocence and disillusionment when a trusted leader falls from grace, leading to a crisis of faith and disorientation.
3. Healing and restoration are possible through confession, forgiveness, and receiving grace.
4. The congregation and the leader must create a culture of goodness.
5. Healing from spiritual abuse requires finding a safe counselor and telling your story.
6. Safe counseling provides a supportive, non-judgmental space to address trauma.
7. Recovery from trauma is a journey and can be aided by professional support.
 
HELPFUL RESOURCES:

• A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing

Transcript

Laura Barringer: 0:12

The ripple effects of one person said, and not just said we all send but the refusal to confess and surrender to the truth. The ripple effects of that have been I'm just astounded at how far reaching they've been. I still have friendships, friends, that still will not speak to me, because what I publicly said about Willow Creek

Brian Beatty: 0:37

Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. And your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. Now in this episode of restoring the soul, Michael welcomes Laura Behringer to the podcast. Over the past decade, we've seen incredible examples of toxic church culture that has upended congregations and has left 1000s of church staff and congregants confused and shaken. In 2020, Laura co authored a book with her father, titled a church called Tov, forming a goodness culture that resists abuse of power and promotes healing. Together they dedicated the book to the wounded resistors, which provides a framework to create a good church culture rather than a toxic one, in order to prevent further abuse. As you'll hear in the interview with Michael, Laura has first hand experience of toxic church culture. She's a graduate of Wheaton College makes her home in the Chicago suburbs with her husband, and three beagles. So without any further delay, here's your host, Michael, John Cusack.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:55

Laura Behringer, welcome to the restoring the soul podcast.

Unknown: 1:58

Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be with you today.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 2:02

Well, the book that you wrote with your dad, Dr. Scott McKnight, the renowned New Testament theologian and scholar is called a church called tov. And I always forget the whole subtitle, forming a goodness culture that resists abuses of power and promotes healing. And wow, has this book been timely. So once again, thank you for writing the book. You were talking to me earlier, before we started the recording that you're not a full time writer, you're a teacher. So talk to me about the context of what was happening. It was rather personal with your experience at Willow Creek that led to how this book come about.

Unknown: 2:40

I like you said I'm a teacher. I've spent 20 years of my career in education working in primary education classrooms and writing a book certainly one like this is not something that I ever planned or envisioned for myself. It started for us honestly, with the unfolding of the Willow Creek story were an article in March 2018, and article about our former pastor Bill Hybels broke in the Chicago Tribune. And the headline immediately grabbed our attention because we had attended willow creek for over 20 years. And we're familiar obviously, with the pastor in the church. So kind of rolled my eyes Honestly, when I read the headline, but then when we started reading the article, I read it aloud to my husband. We were frankly stunned because we knew the names of the women. We knew the names of the women that were bringing these allegations against Bill Hybels. And we knew them well enough. Some of them we had known for over 20 years, they were family friends knew them well enough to know that they weren't the type of people that were going to just make up a story to collude to take down Hybels before he retired as he was claiming. And that's how we began for us as we would hear Willow Creek calling them liars, knowing that that couldn't possibly be true. And dealing with the instability of both of those stories. I remember sitting on my living room couch when I realized it was a horrific realization, I thought only one side could be telling the truth. And it's really disturbing either way. And I think that it's the women that are the ones telling the truth. And it was really my first experience with a church that I knew and that I loved, purposely intentionally misleading people to protect their reputation. It was a it was a very difficult, sad, infuriating time.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 4:45

Well, you just brought up one of the first questions that I'd want to ask and so it must have been heart wrenching because you're personally involved with those people and knew them that it's either that this quote, great leader and pastor that It was overseeing the church that you're part of, he's lying. Or he's done something really horrible, which then opens you up to a whole other reality, or the women are lying. In which case, that's horrible, or they're victims. And that's horrible. So there's like no win in it. But then, that the church created in this is so much a part of this toxic kind of culture that you unpack in the book, the church creates a response, which is almost textbook and characteristic with what happens. Can you talk about that kind of response? That's part of the toxic culture?

Unknown: 5:38

Yeah, so what we saw, frankly, I understand now, like you said, it's sort of textbook it's a pattern at the time. I guess I was just naive. I hadn't. I've heard stories, but I hadn't personally experienced them myself. But what we saw is, rather than a church tell the truth, we saw a church spin stories, equally disturbing. And I've read this now over and over and over in the past several years, is it wasn't just Bill Hybels alone who propagated the narrative, there was a team of people around him, my dad calls them retainers, that are loyal to him that either believed him or knew the truth, and were too deep in and intoxicated with power, that also spread the narrative. So you have a congregation, sitting there listening to their leaders, and believing what they say, as you should be able to. So you have a pastor, you have elders, you have executive pastor, all claiming the same thing, which is the women are lying. And you now have a congregation, many people believing them. So that was what was so disturbing to me is not only that, I was able to identify the pieces of the story that we're not sure where they were like, there were parts of it that were true, but then it was twisted, and Willow creeks favor. But then I would sit down with friends. And they would be they would believe and follow the narrative that the elders had had put out. And they would be angry with me for, for not believing it or for calling Willow Creek out to tell the truth. So to simplify it, what we saw was, it's sort of like when a human is caught in sin, right? We want to hide, we want to protect our image, we're embarrassed, we want to do everything we can to protect ourselves and not acknowledge what we've done. And that's kind of what we saw from the church, like on a larger level is that rather than own it, and say, We're really sorry, and receive God's grace, they didn't do that. Instead, they came out fighting, and called the women liars and created, there's no other way to say it created narratives that just were not true.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 8:17

And also, as you described, just in that short response, there's a trickle down effect, where there's kind of the macro undoing and the either or, you know, I'm telling the truth, or you're telling the truth. But you talked about how then people were angry at you, or hurt by you, because then you become a betrayer for having a certain kind of position. And then it's just like a cancer that grows all throughout the body where people start to take sides. And no one in their sin ever thinks through what the Fallout or what the dominoes will be that fall forward.

Unknown: 8:52

Yeah, you know, it's interesting you say that, Michael, because I have said to friends, so many times the ripple effects of one person's sin, and not just sin, we all sin, but the refusal to confess and surrender to the truth, the ripple effects of that have been I'm just astounded at how far reaching they've been. I still have friendships, friends, that still will not speak to me, because what I publicly said about Willow Creek. It's astounding. Yeah,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 9:26

yeah. And so again, I can only imagine the pain and the heartache that you've gone through was the book healing to write the book. And to dive into this from more of a kind of literary research perspective.

Unknown: 9:42

It was it was equally hard, but also equally healing. I felt all along I've always felt like it was a prompting from the Holy Spirit to speak and write. And it's not an opportunity that I like I said, I'm a teacher. I don't Have a platform, at least I did not at the time. My father did. And he was willing to use it. And he had had publishers writing, asking or calling asking him to write a book about Willow Creek, which he declined at the time. But as more time went on, and I felt like he had something to say, I felt like I had something to say, we decided together to write a book that was ultimately redemptive. So it was truthful. But the reason that we spoke and wrote and said, what we did is because we always felt and still believe that that's not how God designed the church, that we have fallen people leading the church, but it's, it's not right. It's not how it should be. And we wanted to offer an alternative, an alternative to hiding and abuses of power. We, by the way, we we wrote mostly about sexual abuse, we get a steady stream of letters from readers mostly for about power abuse. And so we have always just felt like, this isn't how God would want the church to be and how people to treat each other. And that was the impetus for for why we wrote,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 11:20

I know that power abuse can have a whole separate context where it's not about the sex and the rise and fall of the Mars Hill podcasts, which have become so popular and waking a lot of people up to Oh, my gosh, that is abusive manipulation. It's unhealthy. But also those podcasts are wounding people, because it then makes them come to terms with the pain that they've and the abuse that they've suffered. But would you say that all kinds of abuse in an institution or especially a church, that it all involves a power dynamic?

Unknown: 11:56

Yeah, I would, from what we've learned in the past few years, and I'm not an expert, but I've read a lot. And I've researched a lot. And sure, sexual abuse, for example, comes down to an abuse of power, it always is about a power imbalance, where you have one person who has more power than the other, and victimize the people beneath them.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 12:21

Yeah. And then there's this response. And I forget if, if you wrote about Darfur, this acronym in your book, but I know that it's common with church abuse and religious abuse, but it stands for deny, attack, and then reverse the victim and the offender. And that is the exact textbook strategy that was used here. So first to deny No, it didn't happen. And any more whenever there's an accusation, I just kind of sit back and say, we'll see. Because there's usually the slow unfolding of an acknowledgement of maybe a little bit of abuse, and I'm really sorry, but then it becomes bigger and bigger. But then when denial doesn't work, that there's this attack to come out against. And that's really this reversing that the original victim is now the perpetrator because of how dare you say these things to our beloved leader?

Unknown: 13:11

Right? Yeah, I actually I wrote about Darbo. At one point, I think it got cut. My dad kept cutting things, like people want to eat like more people don't want to read 40 pages about your story of Willow Creek. I said, yes, they do. It's page turning, he's like, gonna get cut. But anyways, at one point, Darbo was in the book. And I learned about it through the process of writing. And again, I don't attribute anything of this to my own self because it's, I believe that it was it was a spiritual process for me. And the Holy Spirit directed me and gave me these words, but I was able to so clearly see Darboe with Willow Creek, I thought, I didn't understand why people other people weren't able to see it and why we they were so mad at me for saying what I thought was obvious to everybody. But it was classic with Bill Hybels. He reversed the aren Darboe reversed the victim and offender so all of a sudden Bill Hybels is on stage crying, saying how bad how this has been really hard for his family and he had to you know, his grandson has heard about this, and he doesn't understand why someone would do this to him. And all of a sudden you're feeling bad for Bill and mad at the women. And the narrative is completely flipped. And I understand you know, I understand now I have a lot more sympathy as time has gone on but it's hard to believe it's it's almost like it's out of our our worldview to if we believe that our pastors telling the truth it can shatter Our faith right? That we so closely connect our pastor with God, that we want to hold on to him telling the truth, or it might really destroy the faith that we built up. So I have more sympathy and understanding now. But I could just see the Darbo. So clearly with the Willow Creek story, it was infuriating.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 15:25

Oh, again, I can only imagine, you know, since all of that played out with Willow Creek, we've seen in our political world and environment in the US that if you have a common enemy, you can have a massive following. And that seems to be part of this, that deny the attack. And then the turn the table says, you know, join with me at this terrible person. And it's a way to get out from under the scrutiny. You talked about in the book. And I love this phrase that the impact of this kind of toxicity, which I'd like you to unpack in a minute, is a loss of innocence, and disillusionment. And for as a therapist, I thought that's exactly on target. But it wouldn't necessarily be the words that I would initially think of like, people are devastated, people are angry, etc. But the loss of innocence is that sense of oh my gosh, this leader who I've trusted, almost a childlike parent, Shepherd relationship, that innocence has just shattered. But then the disillusionment is how do I trust? How do I believe who do I trust, whereas my spiritual home, and what I witness is that with the deconstructors, and the nuns and the Don's and O N, E. And Don's, we oftentimes speak about, well, you know, they're rationally having a hard time make sense of the faith, and they're not sure what they believe anymore. But it doesn't seem to be a theological issue, as much as it's a heart issue where people are traumatized. And they just can't function in the culture that they once could, in the way that it was done. So have you seen that?

Unknown: 17:03

Yeah, you know, as you were talking, and then you said the word at the end, all I could think of was trauma, that it has been a trauma for people. And disillusionment is a good word, we wrote somewhere in the book that the truth was so horrific, it was so unbelievable, that I think people chose not to believe, because it was easier not to believe them be confronted with the truth. And loss of innocence is another good way to describe it. For me, this was the first time I understand now that this is a pattern and that this has happened over and over and but at the time I didn't I was innocent of of it, as well as the reality of how much abuse and power and spiritual dysfunction happened in the church. But it's so hard to grapple with the truth. But we know that ultimately, it's the truth. You have to accept the truth to be free. And over and over and over as, as I researched and wrote, I've said again, it's not God, it's not. He wants us to tell the truth he loves, he doesn't want people to fall in sin and create false narratives. He wants us to come to Him and confess and be known and be receive His grace and receive His forgiveness. So when people ask me that question, like I've, I've personally never been, I've been disappointed with leaders. I felt the loss of innocence. I felt this other word I always used was disoriented. I've never felt Matic God, I felt mad at people who abused their position. But when we look at the beautiful stories in the Bible, it's not how God intended for it to be. So we need people to remind us that your past or foul, he was living in sin. But it doesn't change who God is. And it's not how God would want it to be.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 19:18

Yeah, that's it's a beautiful reminder and so necessary, and I love how throughout the book, there's obviously a lot of Scripture and biblical reference and theology, but at the very beginning, you went to Matthew chapter nine, where Jesus is talking about the people as helpless and as harassed. And again, I'm sure that was your experience of being harassed by the people that were opposed to you and felt betrayed by the stance you took and helpless in that you stand by and there's nothing you can do. So even Jesus 2000 year old words in the gospels are a kind of balm for what's there today. Not just instruction, but almost a kind have anticipated framework for how to handle this. And that's why I love how the book a church called Tov is a map for how to create cultures of goodness. So I said, I would ask you this. Can you talk about what happens when a church is toxic? What that looks like? What are some of the telltale signs?

Unknown: 20:22

Yeah, I also want to say before we jump into that equally beautiful to me in the Bible are the stories of people who sinned, and then they can fast. And they asked Jesus for forgiveness. And he gives it and there they live in the truth. And I've always I still hold on to hope for that for Willow Creek and for some of these pastors for Bill Hybels. I feel like Willow Creek is such a grace filled community, that if he would, if he I just seen a such a beautiful story of of confessing and asking for forgiveness, it would erupt with grace and welcoming him back to the to the truth. So yes, I love the stories in the Bible of his care for the wounded. I also love the stories of beautiful redemption in the Bible. Yeah.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 21:15

Can I Can I respond to that I wholeheartedly agree, you would have no way of knowing this. But 28 years ago, I was caught in a double life as a sex addict, while I was starting out as a job at a Christian university. And that was the worst day of my life, but also became the best day of my life, because it set me free in a way that I never imagined, I thought that I was just gonna have to live the rest of my life hiding, you know, 90% of the truth confessing 10%. And that that was as good as it got. And I was just gonna have to kind of resist, and the shame and the anxiety that carried around well, what that opened up a door was the opportunity to be known, to be forgiven, and to be ultimately restored and healed, and now have a ministry that I never anticipated. So the sadness of all of this, and this is true with every every toxic church and abusive church culture, but that, especially an institution that is known for grace, and embracing brokenness, and having programs about that, and that, that that kind of humility, and trust wasn't, wasn't deep inside of the leadership at the top down. And that's the tragedy in all this. I often say that it's not the sin, that is the barrier to redemption, it's the hiding or the lack of trusting it. Not that the sin doesn't have consequences. But thank you for saying that. Because the people listening to this there are going to be people that err on the side of perpetrator or abuser or having secrets. And it will feel like the very worst thing that could possibly happen, but but if the Gospel is true, it will become the best thing that ever happened for everybody involved.

Unknown: 23:01

That that's beautiful. There's freedom on the other side.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 23:04

Yeah, so what do these toxic cultures look like? Especially before there is any kind of exposure and many of these will never become public?

Unknown: 23:13

Each of these could be hour long conversation, so I know that I'm an I'm gonna go like to speed read through them. But what we did is we researched these churches, and there were some habits that emerged, I guess we could call them habits of toxicity. And in the book, we countered each one with a Tov alternative. So like I said, each of these could be hour long conversations, but the patterns and habits that rose to the surface for us have traits of toxicity and toxic institutions were a narcissist culture, which we've seen an increase in lately. Rather than nurturing grace we saw fear cultures, toxic places, have employees that are afraid to talk and tell the truth for fear of repercussions. Rather than putting people first toxic churches or organizations defend the institution and are overly loyal to protecting its image rather than putting people first like Jesus did. We talked about this one a lot already with Willow Creek, toxic organizations don't tell the truth rather than just coming clean. They make false narratives. They refuse to enter into a season of confession and repentance, toxic churches, rather than nurturing a spirit of justice. They resist it by being overly loyal to each other and to the leader. Celebrity Culture is another big one that rose to the surface. A lot of this even though when we saw you don't have to have a huge church to have a pastor that might be abusing power, but there's a special temptation With the large mega churches, a celebrity culture can develop. And we found that to be highly toxic. And then one that was, has been big with my dad for decades is the leadership culture. Eugene Peterson, he says railed against it for years where rather than being a pastor, being a pastor, we've seen a pastor, the role of a pastor become more like a leader. And this leadership culture develops where business practices creep in. And we found that to be highly toxic when you're trying to run a church like a business.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 25:38

And if I can interject, there's something so so good about the fact that that was identified, but it's in the evangelical church, it's almost like saying you're a communist, on the fourth of July, to say that leadership is something that should be questioned that whole culture of leadership, where you're applying corporate principles, and nothing wrong with excellence, right. But even excellence can become a kind of idol where people become secondary and to the, to their function. But, but the whole idea about the leadership culture is that you pointed out in the book that Jesus never talked about leadership. He talked about shepherding, and he talked about fathering and servanthood and those kinds of things. But we've elevated leadership as a kind of culture to something that's like, the new spiritual goal.

Unknown: 26:34

Right? You know, I asked my dad about this, because he's the theologian, I'm the teacher. I said, you know, tell me more about Jesus and leadership and what he said about it. And my dad said, Jesus and Paul, and of course, I'm not, I'm not a theologian, so don't quote me. But he said something like, Jesus, and Paul did not talk about leadership. And when you look at the role of a pastor, it's not a leader. And he said, there's a little bit of a case could be made for a pastor, as somebody who stands in front of people, and some could interpret that as leader. But the role of a pastor does not intersect with being a leader. And I thought, Well, isn't that interesting? How far off course we've gotten then because, you know, before I saw any red flags that Willow Creek, I do remember thinking, Okay, I don't have I don't think I have the gift of leadership. I mean, at least I, I wasn't utilizing it at the time. If I did, I thought, I don't feel as important. I remember feeling that like, the gift of leadership was elevated at Willow Creek above all other gifts. And I remember sitting there at the Leadership Summit, which Willow Creek held every year thinking like, okay, you don't all have this gift of leadership, there's no way that all of you have it. And I thought, you know, my gift is, I don't know, let's encouragement. We don't have conferences about encouragement. I don't, I just don't feel as important because I don't have that gift. And it just seemed like it was elevated above all others. And I don't know again, I'm not a theologian, but that just doesn't seem like a theme in the Bible to strive to be a leader that everybody knows about.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 28:26

Well, and where your dad went with that in a chapter, I think was that what Jesus did talk about was followership. Yeah. And what it meant to be a follower and to submit yourself to Jesus and to one another. And it seems like the idea of leadership, especially in some of the mega churches, is defined less by gifting and more by charisma, personality charm, and a person's attraction to someone, which seems like then that actually sets up this this platform that people are standing on that then gets kicked out from underneath them. And everybody finds himself disillusioned.

Unknown: 29:04

Yeah, at one point, my dad put Willow Creek's job description for its next pastor into a word cloud. And I think it's in the book, I'd have to flip pages quickly to find it. But he compared in the book, he has two word clouds. What the Bible says about a pastor and what Willow creeks job description was, and they're completely opposite. They were looking for like a CEO type of person who was well connected, that could raise money that was charismatic, there was no mention of a seminary degree. It was about performance and being able to raise money and draw people to the church. So that was another very interesting conversation is I think we need voices like my dad who has spent his lifetime studying the Bible, who can say Listen, this isn't what the Bible is, is saying that a pastor is Is and not that it's wrong, but it can lead people astray.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 30:05

Right? Like that is the way to do it. And I think we would be remiss if we didn't bring up the fact that a common response to this as well look at what God has done through this organization, look at the fruit that he's born and your life is one of them. Right? You met your husband there as part of a young adults ministry. And it's, it's frustrating and confusing, and I'm sure somebody somewhere has a coherent theological answer, but that God will use broken people in a toxic culture, and they're still fruit that comes out of that. And then that's a temptation to justify that as long as there's fruit that we tolerate, what is toxic? Because I've heard over and over again, well, if we told the truth about this, then the name of Christ would be shamed. But what if the name of Christ was less shamed by the process of humility and redemption? Like, this is what his followers do? This is how they live. So talk a little bit about the celebrity culture. I mean, your dad has written 80 books. He's not quote unquote, Billy Graham, but he's a brilliant man, as I've interacted with him just a little bit. He's a force to be reckoned with, with his size and his voice and his preaching. And so you've been around a lot of like, famous people, I imagine. And it feels like the goal of a pastor of a church is to make it big, to get a best selling book, you know, a podcast with a lot of downloads and a bunch of followers. How do we as a church live in a way where where the celebrity culture has less? Dazzle for us?

Unknown: 31:47

Yeah, you know, I have a couple of thoughts. First of all, it's not just the leader. It's the congregation that feeds the leader, which feeds the congregation. It's, it's, it's a cycle. And I felt I participated in the celebrity culture of Willow Creek, unknowingly, when I left the church. And we did not leave because of the scandal we thankfully, were gone before the whole thing erupted. I think it would have been a lot harder to speak and write what we did had we actually been attending. But for me, I did not see clearly the toxicity and the problem that I was perpetuating until I left, and we started attending a little Anglican Church. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, there's no screens. Stops. Shockingly, one of the most obvious things to me was there was no clapping ever for anybody. Nobody clapped in church, which I thought this is probably a lot healthier. We don't have people getting up on a stage because there is no stage. We don't make their their face huge because there's no screens. And we certainly don't stand up and give them a round of applause. So I don't want to rail on mega churches, we had a friend read our manuscript before it went to print and he said, I think you guys have been a little tough on mega churches. So we softened it quite a bit with his with his valuable feedback. I don't think that all mega churches have a celebrity culture. But I do think it requires a person a very strong character to to pastor one. I'm not going to say lead one but to pastor one to not fall temptation to the celebrity. I don't want to be a celebrity church pastor, but if I was one, would I fall temptation to to the greenroom and feeling important and having private jets? I probably I don't know, probably, I just I don't think humans are made to be put on a stage and applauded, and especially linking them to God, you have to have a really, really strong character to do that and not fall susceptible and to pastor your people, so that they're not worshipping you. You know, I remember being in the the foyer of Willow Creek one time and Bill Hybels walked by, and he had his bodyguards around him. And I literally, like squealed. Like there's Bill Hybels that, you know. I remember my husband was like, He's not a celebrity. I'm like, yeah, yes. Yeah, like so. Not only did he behave like one, but we I treated him that way, too. So it takes both it's a cycle it's it's the congregation feeding the celebrity and it's the person on stage. behaving as if they are one.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 34:49

Yeah, I well. I appreciate you saying that because I have my stories of that to where I know this is a sexist term fan girl, but I've been a fan boy. And the funny thing is, is over the Here's the people that have been my heroes, or at least a handful of them have called me up and become counseling clients saying, I need to deal with how to how to live in this crazy world of being a celebrity. And so I'm reminded that this whole conversation and how you, by the way, I don't think we define the word tofu. So there might be people saying, is that an acronym for like, top of the top order view or something? But TOGAF is the Hebrew word for goodness, right? Yes, that's correct. So this whole conversation is about ultimately not the toxicity, but how do you create a culture of goodness. And there's a fundamental brokenness inside of human beings, that when we become Christians, we say, okay, Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and now I have eternal life, and I'm going to heaven. But if we don't deal with that internal brokenness and pursue emotional health, as the other side of the coin of our spiritual health, than this kind of toxicity and brokenness will, will play out our our pain that's not transformed gets transmitted. And so I think I would like to write a book with your dad called a soul called Tov, you know, the what the restored soul looks like. So can we shift gears? And you're right, this could each of these topics would be a wonderful one hour conversation, and talk a little bit about what the Tov culture is, and how you create that.

Unknown: 36:23

Sure. So we, like I said earlier, we researched these habits or traits of toxic churches, toxic cultures, and the habits that I covered earlier, rose to the surface, and we wrote about each of them. And then what we did is we countered each one with a Tov alternative. So here they are. So for example, narcissistic culture is a sign of a toxic culture where you've got a narcissist leading the charge. We read and research narcissism and thought, okay, the opposite of narcissism is empathy. Churches, people who are narcissistic, cannot feel other people's pain. So rather than having to resist a narcissist, culture, you need to nurture empathy, to resist the fear culture where people are constantly walking on eggshells and afraid of telling the truth and afraid of asking their leaders questions. To counter that you need to nurture grace. To counter institution, my dad called it institution creep, where the institution the church is starting to feel like a business instead of a church to counter that. You put people first that's the toll of alternative. Telling the truth is really the heart of the book, there is the most meat is in the middle, where we believe that the Tov alternative to read to telling false narratives is to tell the truth, to speak the truth, to surrender to it to live freely in it. My dad has a beautiful section on Yom Kippur war, about how it was celebrated every year in Israel. And our modern day, a nice modern day equivalent is the season of Lent leading up to Easter and Tov Tov organizations and Tov cultures, they tell the truth, they admit their sins, and they they mourn them and lament for them. And then they live in the freedom of God's forgiveness, Tov churches, rather than being loyal to the leader, where we saw this a lot with with our Willow Creek friends, they were so loyal to the Hybels family or to to the name of the church that they didn't nurture justice for the abused. And so we felt that the alternative to a toxic loyalty culture would be to nurture justice, resisting the celebrity culture is nurturing service would be a total alternative. And my dad, my dad always says in interviews like he believes pastors should be serving. But don't tell anybody that you did it. You don't get up on stage and talk about how you spent the weekend. Don't tell anybody that's not the point of service, you can tell your spouse but you don't need to tell everybody. So a total alternative to celebrity is to nurture service within your congregations. And then finally, resisting the leader culture. What does that look like? It means nurturing, Christ's likeness to be like him not to be striving to be a leader that's well known but to be like Christ instead. So we believe that if churches, nurture these habits of goodness, these Tov good alternatives. Were hoping that it could be just a culture shift where We're not nurturing toxicity, we're nurturing goodness and healing and stuff.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 40:05

I love that. And of course, all of those have to be so intentional, because I think every church, if they are halfway empathic human beings would say, Well, of course, we're all about those things, right? But they, they, they wouldn't necessarily see the underbelly of that or what would play out naturally. And again, it just, it's such a requirement that there's a fundamental humility, that just because there's a vision, and people are coming and sitting in the seats, and people are excited that they're doing the right thing. I sure appreciate you taking the time today. And I appreciate what I imagine were endless hours of research and collaboration with your dad Scot McKnight. But the book a church called Tov, forming a goodness culture that resists abuses of power and promotes healing. I just think this is an essential read for anybody in leadership from pastors to associate pastors to elders, and anybody at all, who wants to create a tough culture, a culture of wholeness. My final question would be, what would you recommend for the person who has experienced an abuse of power, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse or other from a church? What would you uniquely say, to heal?

Unknown: 41:28

I would say, find a counselor. I've we've had story after story after story. And being hurt, being wounded by a church is uniquely painful. being hurt by people who represent God is a terrible kind of pain. And I've learned that we can't expect the church to to fix what's been done. And I think what I've found is most important is telling your story to a safe, Counselor. Whether that's a you know, a trained therapist or psychologist is going to help heal more than anything. Talking to other people who have been through the situation might help you feel less crazy. But after listening to survivor stories for the past couple of years, that's my best. And advice that I can offer is to find a safe counselor that can guide and help heal.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 42:43

Well. Amen to that. We're all for that. So a final thank you to you, Laura Behringer, for this conversation and for the work that you've done with a church called tov.

Unknown: 42:52

Thank you, Michael for having me. It was truly a blessing for me to be with you today.

Brian Beatty: 42:58

So thank you for listening to another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. What we're all about is helping couples and individuals get unstuck. You know how some people go to counseling or marriage therapy for months or even years and never really get anywhere. Our intensive programs help clients get unstuck in as little as two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com