Welcome to another episode of restoring the soul. I'm Michael John Cusack and I'm here with my bride of 32 years Julianne Cusick, and today we're talking about neurodiverse marriages. I've shared that six years ago, I was diagnosed on the autism spectrum, with high functioning Asperger's. And today, we're going to talk about what that looks like in a marriage kind of going outside of the context of my struggle in our marriage to what this looks like in general for couples. So Julianne, you are a certified neurodiverse couples coach, on top of being a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. And so I want you today so that others can understand and potentially be helped for you to share your expertise.
Julianne Cusick:Wow. Well, thank you, Michael. Appreciate that.
Unknown:It's always great to be here in the studio with you. And I'm really passionate and about understanding neurodiversity because it's a lens of understanding an often misunderstood, undiagnosed, overlooked, you know, hate to say diagnosis. But yeah, it's often misunderstood and misdiagnosed. So I'm excited to be here today, to talk about this and try and unpack a little bit about what it means to be in a neuro diverse marriage.
MICHAEL CUSICK:We have talked about neuro diversity in our marriage, when you are working with a couple, two people come to you and say we have neurodiverse issues one of us is on the autism spectrum, or is it something that you kind of discover along the way with people,
Unknown:so people have not come in looking for this diagnosis or framework of understanding folks come in, because they've got marriage issues, right, just like you and I, we were in couples counseling for years. And this framework of neurodiversity is often missed, because folks on the spectrum, especially adult folks on the spectrum, many times they are successful, bright, gifted. I've heard individuals say, I feel like I'm a success in every area of my life, except my marriage. And so people come in, and there's oftentimes common themes of things like past trauma, because folks that are neurodiverse tend to have had trauma, it's not necessary, but a lot of times that has happened either in kids, when they were children, or in their adult life, you certainly have had trauma as a child. And so it's like peeling, peeling back an onion, you know, it's layer by layer, we work on the trauma we work on, you know, addiction, we work on all of these things, and and what's left, when that's still not making sense, and couples counseling, you know, isn't working, then we start looking at, okay, what are we missing here. And so start looking under the hood to see what's going on. And there, there's usually kind of some themes that start to emerge some comments, or feelings that are really pretty common for the neurotypical partner, as well as for the neuro diverse partner. And then thirdly, the issues in the marriage, they start to resonate, they start to sound similar. And so when I meet with couples, which I love doing, Michael, one of the things that you didn't enjoy doing as a kid was the hidden pictures, you know, find the hidden objects. And for me, I loved that. And much of my work with couples is like that. I see myself as an investigator, you know, I'm trying to get to know each individual, and I'm trying to get to know their marriage dynamic. And so I just start digging and looking under the hood, like I said, because I don't want to miss something with clients. And so I'd rather rule out the potential of neurodiversity, because if it's there, and I miss it, I'm doing a great disservice to clients. And this happens over and over and over again, because people are so high functioning. They can maintain eye contact, they can be verbal, they have emotions. So there's so much stereotype out there that I would really love to be a part of debunking and D missing. And so what happens is people are here because they've got these other marital issues. And then there's this familiar familiarity that starts to happen. There's this this kind of knowing that I have I like things start to sound very familiar. And oftentimes, I will ask certain questions to gain deeper understanding. And then what starts to emerge is, hey, let me, you know, throw this out, let me throw you this framework that I'm thinking and just see if it makes sense, right? And if it does, we'll dig a little further. And if it doesn't make sense, great, we've rolled this out, and we can move on to other things. And it's so important, because really, when neurodiversity is present, many times traditional couples work isn't successful. And to some extent, Michael, you and I have experienced this, we had some really, really, really good therapy individually. And even together, but we just kept hitting these speed bumps that we just couldn't seem to, you know, navigate. And it was very frustrating. It was very confusing. I think, at times, you know, we both struggled with really feeling hopeless. And, you know, is this ever going to get better? And why is this happening? And, you know, I think you're the enemy and you think on the enemy and just hitting this wall. And so when neurodiversity is present, we don't do traditional couples work, we actually pivot, and we actually do more coaching. So there's a more psycho educational and coaching approach that used and part of that is just creating this framework of understanding that this difference in perception and behavior isn't that this person is against, which sometimes it can really feel that way certainly has for me, you know, you haven't been against me, you just have a different perception. And so what does it mean to check for understanding what does it mean to create a shared language so many times in a neurodiverse couple relationship, and in ours, we felt like we were speaking two different languages. The what we've done over the last number of years, is create this shared language. And it's like these tracks on which the train of our relationship can then run more smoothly.
MICHAEL CUSICK:That's a lot of great content. I want to come back to something you said. And you said, that as you have these hunches or things start to feel familiar you hear from the neurotypical spouse, which is often not always but often a woman. And the husband is the neurodiverse. But you talked about an experience common experience of the neurotypical talk about some of that what's going on inside of the neurotypical.
Unknown:So I want to just say, You men and women each can have neurodiversity. It tends to be a little bit more common in men. It does look different in men and in women. Much like depression looks different in men versus women. Usually, then the neuro typical partner if it is, in fact, the wife, um, she's feeling missed. relationally like her emotional needs aren't getting met, she's confused, she's frustrated, she thinks that there's something wrong with her, like, why is marriage so hard and so difficult? And she may even feel like her husband, you know, is angry, might have, she might use the word narcissistic. Like he's he's very narcissistic, or he's self centered. So they there's this inner pain that actually both parties are feeling. And I have witnessed and experienced myself that the neurotypical partner does tend to think something's wrong with me. So they struggle with kind of worn down. feeling worn down, having worn down self esteem, might have some depression might have some anxiety. And they're confused, like, things just don't make sense. Many times, wives will say he's gaslighting me, you know, that's, we've heard a lot. It's kind of a buzzword now, gaslighting, and the impact can feel like being gas lit, but it's not the intent of the other person. So we're having to not look at just the surface of the behavior, but bit dig down underneath and see what's the motivation? What's the heart of the person? Yeah, that's just some of the common common things. Another thing that happens is, couples will come in and maybe one of their kids is struggling. And that's a presenting problem that they bring in with them. Either could be a DD ADHD, some learning disabilities, you know, they're getting bullied or maybe they've just been their kid has been diagnosed on the spectrum. You know, we start unpacking that. And we do know that genetically there is a link or neurologically, I should say there is a link that neurodiversity can be be genetic. And so sometimes we see it and family lines for you. And I, you know, one of the things as you started to see this understanding of yourself differently, we started to talk about how your dad was probably undiagnosed on the spectrum his entire life, you know, and some of the unique challenges that he came up against. But he had, he had, like, such great depth and knowledge in his areas of special interest, you know, jazz, right? You know, he was an AE for decades. And his he went very deep in those things. You know, it's usually like something doesn't add up, there's this sense of two and two is not equaling four, it's either equaling three or is equaling five, but it's not equaling four.
MICHAEL CUSICK:So let's get down to real specifics. What are the characteristics? Or I know that our coach for neurodiversity has said, if you've met one person on the autism spectrum, you've met one person, that it's not like, if you've met one, you've met them all? So what are common characteristics of a person with neurodiversity? And especially with Asperger's, or with autism, as opposed to more the ADHD for it?
Unknown:Yeah. Well, I want to just say onset terms can be really confusing. So autism is one end of the spectrum and nonverbal learning disorder would be the other end of the spectrum. And so it encompasses a lot for for our sake here, we're just going to be talking about neurodiversity, regardless of the terms that we're using. So it's any kind of neuro difference. It would be great if I said, hey, here are 10 things to look for. That'll tell you if you're neurodiverse. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. And that's what makes it so hard to accurately get like a diagnosis. The other thing is, a lot of times people are neurodiverse, but they're not going to meet the DSM criteria for a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. And so is there really a diagnosis for neurodiversity? No, it's more of a framework of understanding. So broadly, I can say there's a cluster of other diagnoses and a cluster of symptoms that are common. But not having one of these doesn't mean you are or aren't neurodiverse or having some of these doesn't necessarily mean you are or aren't neuro diverse. And so it's more art than science. Um, some of the common, like DSM diagnoseable, things that can be related or better understood through the understanding of, of neurodiversity, or ASD, are things like mood disorder, depression, anxiety, ATD, ADHD, impulsivity, compulsivity, and things like sleep disorders, sensory integration disorder, and food issues like picky eaters, having trouble with the sensory aspect of food, or the smell of different foods or smell in general, different scents. The other thing can be sound, real sensitivity to loud sound. Some of the other kind of common traits really will be seen in the interpersonal relationship, because of masking, which is, hey, I'm watching you, and I'm learning how to, you know, fit in in youth group or fit in at the job. The further away people are from a neurodiverse individual, the more neurotypical that person appears, what happens is the closer people get to that individual, and the closest person is usually that intimate partner, or a parent, the closer we get to that person, then we start to see the masking breaks down. And we don't know what it's like to be this close right up against one another, so to speak, relationally emotionally, and that's where things start to break down and not make sense. So, a neurotypical partner may say something like, Well, I don't understand how he can be this way at work or at church, but with me, he's different. So that's kind of a clue. That's would be a symptom. High IQ, but challenges may be showing that IQ and sometimes it's not the struggle, but it's actually the success so we have to look at both sides of the coin. Social anxiety. Some people will be like, oh, you know, Michael Cusick has social anxiety No way he's so funny. He's so extroverted. He just loves people. And yet underneath, you've confided in me that even going to church, sometimes you can feel anxious. And that can be another characteristic or trait of somebody on the spectrum.
MICHAEL CUSICK:What about issues with empathy and the neurodiverse person being able to empathize and understand the other person's perspective?
Unknown:That's a big area of breakdown. Many times, the neurodiverse individual may say the right thing, but the neurotypical partner doesn't feel like they mean it, which is pretty crazy making right you're saying to me, Oh, honey, I'm so sorry. And it sounds pretty perfunctory. Pretty matter of fact, neurotypical people like to talk just to talk to engage to connect that many times neurodiverse individuals, they see talking as a way of just giving out information, or, and so there's one word conversations, how are you today? Fine, how was your day? Fine. And you know, and the partner is like, Well, I kind of want to know, like, what your day was like, and, you know, unpack it, and the person is like, you know, it was fine. Like, there's nothing else to say. So this, this empathy, it's not that they don't care. There's like, a clog in the pipe, if you will. They can appear uncaring, they can sound uncaring, they can sound disingenuous right to their partner. And so that's another very common dynamic is he says the right things, but I don't feel like he means it. Yeah, another one is this Miss nomer, for lack of a better word, or misunderstanding, that people on the spectrum don't have feelings. That is so not true. They do have feelings, they have a lot of feelings, they can even have really intense feelings. The breakdown is they're not you they're usually not able to process those feelings or understand those feelings or know what to do with those feelings. And so there's like irritability and moodiness. And maybe there's anger or this emotional shutdown. And it's like, am I getting the silent treatment here? No, the person has just reached their capacity of they're on overload. And now they kind of have to shut down to recharge much like, you know, I've got to shut down my my laptop and let it recharge. Because I've overused it, folks on the spectrum can be very, very high functioning, gifted, successful, but then when they're off duty, they like to need to zone out with a game or a TV show or put their headphones on, or they need to hyper focus on a hobby or special interest. Because that's what recharges them.
MICHAEL CUSICK:You know, along those lines, one of the things that we learned was this idea of a neurological budget. And as an extrovert, I get energized by being around other people and being outside of the home. And yet, I was always confused because then I found myself needing to have Solitude at home. And it's not the classic introvert extrovert. But what happens is that I have a pretty sensitive neurological budget. And if I'm too overstimulated, or if there's too much intensity, or if I get too tired, then I have very little capacity to engage relationally with anything that requires a lot of me, that's something that was really helpful to set an example of this.
Unknown:Yes, neurological budget, even an emotional budget. So hey, I've held it together all day at school or at work. And then I come home, and I've got no emotional budget. So we see this a lot of kids, where they hold it together at school, they're they're functioning, they're high performing, and then they get home and they have these epic meltdowns, right, they're crying, they're raging, that, you know, they can't do their homework. They're just so emotionally dysregulated and distressed. And it's like, I don't get it. Well, as adults, we do the same thing. We're just a little better at masking it. Right? So, you know, you give give give all day long, and then you come home and you disappear. And I'm like, where did Michael go? And so one of the things we've worked on is she just checking in with me to say, hey, I need to decompress, right? We have some, some language we've built around that. And you just go in your man cave and you disappear for an hour. And so I know what that means. And I'm not going like, you know, where did he go? Is he mad at me? You know, he disappeared again. So yeah, so there's this neurological tank, if you will, but there's also emotional so like when you and I are talking and you know, you can just handle so much of my emotional intensity because I have a lot sometimes And you can do so much of it. But then it's like you hit your limit. So that comes to mind and then communication. So it's there can be kind of a double standard. Sometimes it feels like a double standard, where the neuro diverse individual is telling the story, and they're telling lots of details, they've got rabbit trails, is this sounding familiar at all to our own relationship? It is. And then, you know, I'll get lost and all of that and say, you know, hey, what do you what do you most want me to know? So you'll have a lot of words, but then if I want to tell a story, and I have a lot of words, you know, then it's like, no, no, no, no, I too many words, just tell me what you want. Tell me what you need. And that can feel really abrupt and really kind of disorienting. of why just listen to you talk. And now I want to talk but you're you've got it all used up already. So those kinds of things, you know, these are not if this happens, this is definitely what it is. If it doesn't happen, you know, it's really a mystery. It's really an art to uncover and understand this. And when I work with couples, they'll say, hey, look, does this make sense to you? And when they go, Yeah, you're reading my mail? Then I'm like, Okay, we're on to something here. Let's keep going.
MICHAEL CUSICK:So with the hope and help that we want people to have you already said that it's not as much therapy as it is coaching. What is it that helps people to if once they identify that there's neurodiversity going on? What is it that helps them to be able to stay together and to thrive? And to not just constantly feel miserable all the time?
Unknown:Yeah, great question. I think the first thing is that for the neurotypical is I'm not crazy, right? Like there is something that's different here that I keep bumping up against. And the second one is equally as important. And it's for the neurodiverse individual, which is I'm not bad. So many folks on the spectrum feel like internally, I'm a failure. I'm not good at this. I'm trying so hard, and I can't get it right. Oh, have I heard that? And so my hope is that when people have this understanding, there's a sense of relief. Oh, I'm not bad. Oh, I'm not crazy. Oh, this is what's going on. We're just neurologically wired differently. Oh, okay. Well, I can deal with that. And so then there's the hope. Right, Lord said, you'll know the truth, and the truth will set you free. And I think when we know the truth about ourselves, neurological difference or not, but certainly with neurological differences, when we know the truth, it has the potential to set us free, set us free from these misconceptions about ourselves, these false beliefs about ourselves, the negative, you know, talk that we have said years and years and years, or even other people have said to us, sometimes very, very hurtful things. And there's just that hope, then underneath, that can be life giving, that can bring freedom can bring life to the full. And that's what I get excited about in helping couples
MICHAEL CUSICK:so that I'm not crazy, and I'm not bad. And then a big focus what we've received our tools that are very different, or often different from the traditional tools of couples counseling, and talk a little bit about that, not necessarily specific tools, because we don't have time for that. But how does that help couples?
Unknown:Well, let me say this, I think it's the order in which it's done. You know, when couples go to counseling, and they're given the communication tools, right, and they don't know about neurodiversity, they're bumping up against something. When we unpack the neurodiversity first, then we have this, oh, this aha moment, then we can do some communication tools and techniques to practice. And then there are actually tools that go into the toolbox. But if we just focus on those tools to begin with, without the framework of understanding, that's when they don't work. So I think we get the order wrong, you know, well, meaning therapists are sitting with people and they're trying really hard. You know, if I could just get them to communicate, or if I could just get them to emotionally connect or hear the other person's point of view. Like it would be such a game changer, that they keep bumping heads. Once we have this framework and this understanding and this big aha Ah, have, oh, our brains are wired differently, then all of a sudden, we can use those tools and communicate them to our clients in a way that makes sense to that individual. So I think the, I see myself when I work with a neurodiverse couple, as the interpreter, I totally get the neurotypical right, that's me, I get that I've lived that. But I also have a deep love and respect for people that are neuro different, neuro diverse. And I've learned through you and through others that have been open with me, I've learned some of their inner struggles. I've learned how alone and isolated they feel. I've learned that they feel so misunderstood that they mean well, they have these good, pure, beautiful hearts. And yet, no matter what they do, it seems like they're wrong. And they're frustrated, and they're worn down, and they're discouraged. And when a therapist or a coach can see that and normalize that and give them a framework to understand why that's happening. It's like, Oh, what a relief. And so then I see myself again, as that interpreter, helping them create a shared language, so that they can understand one another, and they can communicate. But it starts with each of us or each individual in the relationship being seen and heard and understood. And that's that basis that regardless of our neurology, we all have that in common. We were born, you know, as Kurt Thompson says, looking for someone looking for us, right? We're born wanting to be seen and heard and validated. And so many times people on the spectrum, or with neurodiversity, they haven't felt seen or heard or understood, and they carry a lot of pain with that.
MICHAEL CUSICK:Well, Julianne, this is a topic that I'm sure a number of our listeners are going to want to dig deeper into, we're going to provide some links and resources on the page where this podcast will be posted. And I'm just so so grateful for you being able to share not only about our journey with neuro diversity, but also your expertise. So thanks for being here.
Brian Beatty:So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut you're in our intensive counseling programs in Colorado, allow you to experience deep change and half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com