Episode 284 - Robby Angle, "Breaking Your Cycle, A Grace-Based Approach To Walking Together Through Unwanted Behaviors"

On this edition of Restoring the Soul, Michael has the opportunity to participate in a webinar with Robby Angle and the team from TrueFace titled “Breaking Your Cycle, A Grace-Based Approach To Walking Together Through Unwanted Behaviors.”

All of us have struggled with an addiction or an unwanted behavior that we just can’t seem to stop. Often, in desperation or exhaustion, we tell someone. Unfortunately, many of us aren’t sure what to do next. In this webinar, Michael and Robby discuss a grace-based approach to walking with another person through unwanted behaviors and toward freedom. This approach will teach you to focus on the person instead of the problem.

Click here to view the video of the webinar.

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Transcript

Robby Angle: 0:00

Good to see you, friend. I'm really excited about this.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 0:04

I am so excited too. We had so much fun together in June, down in Atlanta away filming this, and I can't believe it's already here.

Robby Angle: 0:13

Yeah, I'm excited. So I will share a screen in a minute on how to get access to this tool. But I want to give you a little context as to why we partnered with restoring soul and Michael Kusik to build this thing. But if you don't know, Michael is founder of restoring the soul. He is he's been a professor is a psychotherapist, trauma specialist, a spiritual director, a speaker and author. And more importantly to me, he is a friend of mine, a good friend and anything I missed there, Michael?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 0:51

No, I you're going down the list. I was like, Who is that guy?

Robby Angle: 0:55

Lot? It, you've been busy man. If we haven't met my name is Robbie angle, I work with true face. So restoring the soul and true face are both nonprofits. Restoring the soul. Michael focuses on intensive counseling sessions for people all kinds of issues in therapeutic environments in Colorado. And at true phase, we develop Grace based relational discipleship resources to equip people to experience deeper relationships with God and others. And this I've been wanting to build this tool for a couple years. And we came out with crazy making a four part small group study on understanding your sin cycle, which really unpack chapter four of the cure. And, and we needed a tool for two people to go through to process their unwanted behaviors. Because of a lot of us who get identity who get grace, we see ourselves as saints who still sin center striving to be saints we know were adopted righteous sons and daughters of the King who had been made righteous as saints. But what do we do with this sin thing, especially this this, like repeating sin in a lot of our lives is this hard thing to understand how to deal with addictions, through a lens of grace, and I was talking to my cousin Hall. He called me like six months ago, and he was like, Hey, I'm also a licensed professional counselor, I am not practicing. But as the true face guy, and the LPC of my cousin Hall was like, Hey, this guy at work reached out and said, Hey, I'm struggling looking at porn, what do I do? And I'm a professional counselor. And I was like, ah, you know, I didn't know how to communicate to him how to walk with somebody through a lens of grace. And a lot if I don't, I'm assuming a lot of us don't know how to do this, right? So what happens is, we're struggling with an addiction, unwanted behavior could be gossiping, eating, spending, drinking, whatever it is. And we tell somebody or somebody tells us, and so we do two things, right? We either say, hey, read this thing, read surfing for God, if it's porn, write the book, Michael wrote it, read this resource, listen to this podcast, we go to resource, or we go, okay, thanks for sharing, I'll check in and we call them back in a week. And we're like, Hey, how you doing? You've been drinking this week, or you know, and it goes to accountability. We don't know how to walk with somebody through the lens of grace, because resources and old school accountability ends up focusing on the sin, the behavior, and it just doesn't work. I've been trying all kinds of accountability for like 25 years, and it just doesn't work. Right. And so we, we develop tools to help people help churches help you apply grace in the context of your relationships. And so we thought no better tool than to create a tool to help you understand addictions, sin through a lens of grace, and have a total walk with somebody. So this was designed for one person, and I will show it for you to walk with one other person, or a lot of you are probably going to check out this resource just for understanding addiction. But here I will share the screen. So here's how you get access to this tool, you click this QR code. And so restoring the soul and true face are both nonprofits. And at true phase, most everything we offer is free. But we wrestled with this and we said, No, we're gonna make this 1299. And it's a six conversation study designed to help you go through it with one other person. And you could do it in a small group. You could do it just for your own context, but it's 1299 so that you have skin in the game. And you can find that on the true face life app. It's free on the website. It has tons of free stuff, or by scanning this QR code. So go to the Truth is Life app, and it's the breaking your cycle experience, and you can check it out there. So I'm going to jump in Michael, we're gonna get to the good stuff and, and give some teasers for what we unpack further in the six part conversation of breaking your cycle. But one of the, you know, I just alluded to it, that, that addiction, we typically go to accountability, and it doesn't really work. Unpack for us, when you hear accountability, why isn't that as as effective when it comes to deep transformation?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 5:37

Well, as you know, Robbie, we we talked about this in the video, and I'm excited for people to be able to hear more about this message because it's so liberating. And we need liberation on two levels. One is we need to liberate liberation from these unwanted behaviors and from the cycle that's so compulsive and seemingly so unending. But we also need liberation from an approach that simply doesn't work, because that increases shame and increases pressure. But I was talking to somebody about an hour before the webinar began, and it's a friend of mine, and the conversation came up about accountability. And they said, and I quote, I hate the word accountability. And I've talked to so many people where that's the case, but there's no good alternative. So to answer your question, I'll talk about three levels of accountability that helps people to begin to understand this. And I want to say at the outset, that there are certain things that we need to simply be accountable for, if we don't pay our taxes, we are accountable to that, and we go to prison, if we don't pay our mortgage, or our car payment, or if we don't eat breakfast, you know, there's going to be a consequence to that. But in terms of unwanted behaviors, the first level of accountability, and these are all kinds of relationships is what I call cop accountability. And that's where Robbie, I come to you and say that I'm struggling with online football betting, I haven't lost 1000s of dollars yet, but I don't want to be doing this, you know, for whatever reason, it's not in my budget. And I keep doing it, and I come to you and I say I need you to hold me accountable. And then the cop model, the idea is that you're going to, you know, have your radar gun. And when I speed, you're going to write me a ticket. And the idea that I'm going to have that negative consequence or that I'm going to feel guilty or that I'm going to feel shame that that's supposed to motivate me. But really, that's based in a model of what Dallas Willard called sin management. And the problem with that is that as the shame comes, because I will inevitably either lie about what's happening because addicts and compulsives lie, or I'm going to feel pressure, that's going to make me feel inadequate and deficient. And if I somehow succeed, then I'm going to feel pride. Like, wow, I did this. I'm great. Most people feel a sense of pressure and weariness. But ultimately the cop approach is that it's external, and it doesn't get to the deeper issue. The second approach and accountability is Coach coppice first coaches second, and the coaches, I'm going to come and inspire you and encourage you and help you to perform better. But in Matthew chapter 15, Jesus says, To these people who are excellent at performing the Pharisees, he says, You honor me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me. And your worship is in vain. God wants our heart, not our performance. And the problem with Coach accountability is that it's all about performing and performing leads to pressure, or pride. The third kind of accountability, and I think people will go, oh, this is the good one is cardiologist, cop coach cardiologist, a cardiologist is concerned with the welfare of someone's heart. So if our hearts are far from the place that we want them to be, we need someone to attend to our heart. And at this point, I throw in another word, and I say that accountability becomes excess ability. And I think what God wants more than obedience is access to the real us. He wants the real me to show up. And therefore when we sit down and have conversations like we help people to have in this video series, we're actually moving into the realm of accessibility. And that's when community even one on one become super powerful, that helps transform us from the inside out.

Robby Angle: 9:28

Yet it is focusing on this the sin under the cop and the coach where you just said in regards to performance equals pressure and pride, that that's been a lot of what I've experienced, that that missed out on that accountability heart issue, because and that word of accessibility I wrote down from when we were recording the conversation in regards to access to ability you said connection is the antidote to addiction. Why is that the case? And how does accessibility? How is that correlated to a to the cardiologist type accountability?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 10:15

Yeah, well, I have to give credit for that statement that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety but connection, that that that's from Johann Hari, who gave a TED Talk that can be found online called Rat Park. And it's all about this study that was done with rats. And that is ultimately true, because an addiction is a kind of relationship. One of my favorite definitions of addiction, and I taught addictions classes to counselors for years, and I would, I would, on the first day, I would take out all these different definitions and explore them and look at why certain ones were valid and others were not. An addiction is an unhealthy mood altering relationship with a person, a substance or a behavior. And I'll say that, again, it's a mood altering relationship with a mood, an unhealthy mood altering relationship with a person, a substance or behavior. And so we relate to we attach to we give ourselves over to these behaviors, to put wind in our sails to lift us up to give us a sense of comfort, a sense of fulfillment, a sense of significance, to allow us to feel soothed or allow us to feel secure. And if we don't replace that addictive compulsive relationship with an actual relationship, where we can get that same need met, either in real time or with a real person, the way that God designed, then will either replace that behavior with something that's still unwanted, or we'll continue to struggle with it.

Robby Angle: 11:54

That that principle that addiction is a type of relationship speaks to how the cardiologist approach is that we have to process in the context of relationship. Part of this is is that addiction is so correlated to self deception. Like it's so hard to see it properly. What Why is that the case? And how is the power of relationship to counter with another person so valuable in the self deception, in helping us understand and see it more properly? Because we are having a unhealthy relationship with that? I love that person, substance or addiction that alters our mood.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 12:41

Yeah, so this idea of self deception is really massive. And how do we get out of self deception? If I'm deceiving myself? How can how, you know that's, that's an endless kind of circle. Well, we need relationships, we need other people to help reflect the truth to us. It was Gerald may in His brilliant book addiction and grace, who said that self deception is the chief characteristic of addiction. And I won't unpack this whole idea. Now, I think we go into it in the videos. But James Chapter One is where we see self deception. And John, First John, chapter one is where we see self deception and Romans one, where Paul talks about how we suppress the truth, in unrighteousness, the part of our unrighteousness is not about, you know whether our heart is black. That's just not the case. Because we are new, and we have new hearts in Christ. But part of that unrighteousness is how we take the beach ball of the truth of our lives and the truth of who we are. And we push it under the water and we say, that's not really a problem. Or tomorrow, I can quit, or this really won't happen again. Or as soon as I confess to someone that desire is going to go away. And ultimately, self deception is broken through humility, of saying, God, I'm gonna trust you with who I really am. And it's broken in relationship as we entrust our self to others who are safe people who can see beyond the struggle and beyond the addiction to our real heart.

Robby Angle: 14:12

It is encouraging that I think 500 people signed up for this webinar live and more will be listening to this on podcasts or after the fact. But so many of us have unwanted behaviors I do and you do, as we talked more about our own addictions on on the breaking your cycle. But our hope and creating this tool is that we have friends and other sexual addiction, substance abuse, recovery ministries, counseling agencies, addictions everywhere, and we don't know how to walk with the people that we love or walk with somebody through our unwanted behaviors without going into that addiction. So if you're tuning into this, if you go to the truth has life app, you can get the six conversations and again, the goal is Is to have just enough skin in the game. So we made it 1299, everything else is practically free is pretty much every resource is free other than this one because we want that skin in the game. And if that is a barrier, email me, and we'll give you free access to this. Because we don't want it to be a barrier, we just want to commitment because of the weight and intentionality in this and just like in counseling, you want some skin in the game for that buy in. And the fact that so many of you have signed up to this to learn how to walk with somebody how to process your own addictions through a lens of grace is just such a blessing to us, because that's why restoring the soul and true face exists to serve you with tools to how to move into freedom that Jesus provided, and the sin cycles are real. So I want to unpack the sin cycle a little bit, Michael with you. We talked about this further, but there's a pattern and a cycle that all of us go through in our addictions. What what are those four parts to the addiction cycle that we go through?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 16:05

Well, this is where I'm gonna need your help, Robbie, because we had a lengthy conversation about what words we would use here.

Robby Angle: 16:12

Now Yeah, well, you know, desire to fixation Batian to surrender, and then shame,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 16:19

right. And we took some time to think about that, because the wording is really important. And a lot of different approaches. And helpful programs use different words like Celebrate Recovery and secular 12 Step groups and other folks that we hope to get this series into their hands. So the first piece is desire. And with most unwanted behaviors, if I want to go online, and do football betting, if I want to go on Craigslist and buy more stuff, if I if I who collect watches want to go and buy a watch or simply to go online, and to look at watches for the purpose of giving me excitement, save that picture, put it in my folder, and then that's the watch that I'm going to want see, we don't actually have to engage in the behavior, there's a kind of ritual that can happen that can be just as compulsive. And with what happened in the Middle East a week ago, I have been absolutely compulsively glued to my phone. And I've deleted some apps, and then re downloaded them what's going on there. And I say that, because people who are watching may think I'm going to get the key. I'm going to I'm going to listen to this webinar and do the series and I'm going to I'm going to deal with all my addictions. And freedom happens. Absolutely. That's my story. That's your story. But then we continue to live in this process of shedding our skin. Desire is key to understand what's really going on below the surface that we're longing for. We are beings who long who yearn who desire Psalm 37, for most people focus on the front part of that delight yourself in the Lord. But the second part is, and he will give you the desires of my heart. So I'll often stop and ask people well, what do you long for? What do you want? What does your heart really seeking, and it was Thomas Aquinas, the great 13th century philosopher and considered one of the greatest theologians of all time, who said that beneath every sinful behavior is a legitimate God given appetite. So the first thing in the cycle is for people to be aware that what is beneath their struggle, whether it's with overeating, which has been a lifelong struggle for me, whether it's with some kind of sexual behavior, whether it's with shopping, anger, Bible study, if there's something that we're doing that we can't stop doing, we're in bondage to it. And what the root is, is not sin, but legitimate, God given desire. I'm going to pause for a minute. And you asked me a question or comment because you know how radical this idea is, for many people?

Robby Angle: 19:00

Well, before going on to fixation, but the desire piece connected to our heart, we talked a little bit about our primary needs, that we have desires for those to be met of being seen and soothed and safe and secure. Those needs I hear you saying are not bad in themselves. Like we have real desires and needs, that we have real needs, that those that we have desires to be met. And then whether it's in a healthy or unhealthy way is where we get off because then the fixation, and then the surrender and the shame cycle happens. But anything about seeing suit safe and secure and how those needs are connected to desire.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 19:41

Yeah, I have a new book coming out in the fall, called Love has you in that book unpacks. This idea of the four S's seem to save six secure and from a clinical secular developmental psychology and a neuroscience perspective, being seen soothe safe insecure are four core needs of every human being from the womb to the tomb. So if you are 100 years old, or if you're one week old, we need to be seen, we need people to gaze into our eyes. We need people to see us step into the world and go, yes, that's incredible. Or you swung at the wiffle ball and you miss, it's alright, give it another try, we need that kind of attunement to be seen, we need to be soothed. So instead of falling down, hitting our head, scraping our knee and somebody saying, Don't cry, or I'll give you something to cry about. But the parent, the caregiver, that lifts that child up into their arms, and says, It's okay, I've got you, that's part of the soothing, soothing, can be physical, but also emotional safety, that sense that that sense that I am protected from harm, that there are boundaries in my life, when I'm young, and when I'm old, are modeled for me. And then a sense of security, that I am okay, that I don't have to be autonomous, and independent, and completely take care of myself, I can't get my needs met. So I got to do that on my own. But that love has been God's got me. Now, here's the thing. Those are four, nervous system neurological needs in our body, that we can't just take truth from the Bible, or from listening to a podcast and say, Okay, now I understand, we actually have to have them trickled down into our body and to become internalized inside of us. So those four core needs are beneath everything else. And then in surfing, forgot, I talked about seven peripheral needs. And I'll run through these really quick. If you're going I'm not sure what seems suits safe Securus we have a longing for four A's attention, affection, affirmation, acceptance, for legitimate God given needs. And then significance, satisfaction, and then security, which is that sense that love has me.

Robby Angle: 22:01

So pulling this back into the cycle. Tell me where desire connected to our needs leads to then walk me through the cycle of of then fixation and surrender and shame. Walk me through that cycle?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 22:17

Yeah, absolutely. I would take people to Jeremiah chapter two verses 12 and 13. And God bless you, Robbie. The Scripture says, God's talking through Jeremiah and God says My people have committed to since they've turned from me, the spring of living water. And they've turned away and they've dug broken cisterns. Issue number one, God is the source of the satisfaction of all of our desires and longings and of course, through his gifts of human beings relationship, the beauty, truth and goodness in the world. But he's the source of that, we turn away, and we get out a shovel, and we dig a well. And the Bible says that they're broken systems. And this is really the metaphor Pyrex alliance of addiction. Because think of a cup, or a bowl that has a crack in it. It's a big crack. So you pour water into that bowl or cup, and the water just leaks right out. So I've got to keep going back to that well to fill it up. But I try to fill it and I pour it in, and it just leaks out. And this is where the scriptures are brilliant, and Jesus is so brilliant is that's really the model of addiction, then we know that addiction and compulsion begins to affect our nervous system, and wire our pathways in a certain way. That's why in surfing for God, I included a whole chapter on how our brains get wired by addictive and compulsive behavior, and especially pornography. So the desire, or these thirst and longings inside of us. Because we turn away from the source, we become fixated on that behavior, substance person that seems to satisfy that longing. But it's a longing and a desire that satisfied that's within our control. But because there's a crack in the picture, the bowl, the cup, it's going to leak. And now I have to keep going back and back and back. And I can't control that any longer. It becomes out of control. And this is why all 12 Step programs and many approaches to dealing with addiction and compulsiveness is to surrender control or to acknowledge our powerlessness at the beginning and to say God only you can restore me to wholeness Only you can bring me forth into a place of freedom.

Robby Angle: 24:38

So that I walk me through that more because how does that lead into the fixation piece and then actually surrendering to buy something look at porn and then that spiral of shame back to desire?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 24:52

Yeah, so I'll use the example of watches. I grew up lower middle class in a blue collar family, and so somewhere along the way, it's a Actually, in second grade, I made my first communion in the Catholic church, I was given this beautiful kid watch, I lost it on the way to Sunday school on the way to catechism. And I cried, and it was really a deep disappointment. But as I grew, there were kids in my school that were, quote, wealthy in from richer families. And I start to realize they've got nice things, and I don't, you know, I've got the Kmart tennis shoes, so to speak. And along the way, I realized one of the really cool things that successful men have are really nice watches. And so I'd start to focus on watches. And I'd start to say, if I had that watch, then I'd be somebody, if I had that watch, then I would be a successful man. Even though inside I didn't feel successful, and I was full of shame and anxiety. So when I'm feeling depressed, when I'm feeling sad, when I'm feeling anxious, generally one of the things that I can do, like, let's just say that my wife and I are sitting on the couch, I pick up my phone, and she's watching a show or sending emails, pick up my phone, and I might check my email. And then I find myself going to a website with watches. And I've got, you know, my list of top three watches and that kind of thing. And what that does is that fixation on it expands my soul, it begins to release chemicals in my brain. And the neural pathways kick in, and it literally gives me a sense of well being, and Psalm 24, and 25. There's this contrast between he who lifts up his soul to an idol, and he who lifts up his soul to the Lord. And I liked that phrase, because whatever I turned to to fixate on, lifts me up, it gives me this lift, lift, which is why the addiction definition is it's mood altering from that place of fixation. At some point, I'm going to surrender to that person to that object to that substance, and give into it. And that's what we call the acting out the sinful behavior, the relapse, whatever it is, and then that inevitably leads to shame. And as you guys talk so brilliantly about in all the true face materials, it's not just shame, that's like, Oops, I screwed up, because that's guilt. And in the video series, we make the distinction between guilt and shame. But it's, ah, there's something really wrong with me, I'm unlovable, I'm bad. I'm deeply flawed, I'm inadequate. Nobody would love me for who I really am. And I'm never now going to get my needs met by depending on others, because there's something so wrong with me, then that shame comes back around to my desire. And now there's another level of pain attached to my desire, because proverbs 13 says Hope deferred makes the heart sick. Now I have deferred hope for that longing and shame added in, and it becomes like a bundle of sticks. And every time we act out, it throws gas on that stick.

Robby Angle: 27:58

That is the crazy making cycle. Like desire, fixation, builds the anticipation surrender to it. And then I have the shame, that that feels the need of desire, because those needs have seen to safe and secure on met because I'm an idiot, I failed, whatever that shame message is, and what you said about turning away from the source that that desire God given desires, we just look to the wrong things and become fixated on the wrong sources. That is where without objectivity, and with without connection, we're stuck in that cycle. And that is the power that we're tuning into this going, how do we help love and walk with each other, and as cardiologists to honor it, to have handles and perspectives of the desire and asking questions about that desire, and in preventing the fixation and to surrender into shame cycle, that's the gift we get to provide for each other. And at any point, we talked about how we can break this cycle by coming into the light, to not be hidden to share this with somebody else. And for anybody listening to this, that's our prayer for all of us that these handles these frameworks can help us walk with somebody to move into the light. And we'll unpack further we don't have time today. But the healthier cycle looks like desire does not change. But an attentiveness to that desire. pointing us back to the source we get to then surrender not to the act and the the the unhealthy way, but to healthy response to that surrender to that desire that looks like relationships, it could look like receiving from God what he has to offer us, and that that helps us live into our true identity as saints instead of the lie of our identity that we're failures as shame and we unpack eyecare different ways to be a aware of what's going on in that cycle. And as I want to get to q&a, Michael, for people listening to this for their own life, their ministries, they're a part of it with their friends with their own addiction cycle. What is your hope or encouragement for us before we get to to q and A's, for any of us in this in understanding the cycles?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 30:24

That's a great question. Robbie, we talked a lot about that, as we were together in June filming this, my first hope is that people will find hope. Because when you're struggling with an unwanted behavior, whether it's something kind of benign, or whether it's, you know, life threatening, like many addictions can be or whether it would put you in jail because you cross certain lines or whether it makes you bankrupt, that people would find hope that there's a way out, that there's a way that you can access and move into the abundant life that Jesus promised. Because even though many of these things feel, and promise, fulfillment, happiness, joy, it is bondage. And that robs us from the freedom that were created to experience joy, and peace. And then I hope that people get clarity, clarity about what their desires actually are, there can be so much dignity restored, and so much shame taken off of us when we when we begin to realize, oh, my gosh, my desires are not the problem. It's how I mishandle my desires, based on a lot of experiences that I've had about relationship. And then finally, I think, and this is always kind of secret in my heart, whenever I'm teaching about anything related to the soul and addiction, I think, finally, I would hope that people have a greater sense of healing about who God is, we all need our image of God healed, we have beliefs about God in our head. But really what plays out on a day to day basis is what picture of God we have in our head and what he's really like. And I want to just say that I spent so much of my life as a young Christian. And even recently, thinking that okay, what I need to do with this compulsive behavior is I just need to turn back to God turn back to God turn back to God, because Jeremiah 213 says that he's the source, He's the source, so I just need to focus on him and spend more time with him. But I would say yes, and when it says that he's the source of living water, I would, I would put in parentheses, all healing relationship is living water. So oftentimes, it's easier for the person that doesn't want to come clean with their behavior, whether that's something shameful or stigmatizing or not, it's easier to just go to God and talk to him about it, and say, Please take this away, or bring me freedom, when really what's required is the humility of entrusting myself to another person. So the living water may very well be the person that you do this six week course with, and God uses that person, and some of this curriculum to help break you. So God is the source of living water, but it's always his gifts, including his people. And it's always relationship in which we're healed. And it's virtually impossible, if not impossible, to break free from something that is habitual and compulsive in isolation.

Robby Angle: 33:33

Let it be so God, man, that is my hope. And I'm gonna start this with a friend, who in his humility, reached out recently and said, Hey, I'm struggling with this thing and with the with Christ in me and the Holy Spirit in me to be able to love him alongside the Holy Spirit. And, you know, in that vertical and horizontal relationship, that beautiful way, God designed us in that love God and love others. And this is the way of following Jesus. That's our hope that this tool helps you do that and know how to do it. I built this for myself, because I don't know how to do it well, and so I'm, I'm going to do this with him and processes question. So there's a QR code to access this course. Or if you are listening to this without the video, just go to download the true face life app, and click on breaking your cycle. And it's six conversations and a conversation is really a 10 minute conversation, a 10 minute thought principle of teaching between Michael and I setting up the gold which is about for open ended questions for you and one other person or a small group to process or even individually. And then at the end, we leave you with a resource, some good questions, to check in with each other on a consistent basis to just go use those questions and check in with those questions. on an ongoing basis to provide a path, some rails to walking with somebody as a cardiologist in love and understanding their desires in their heart leading to the addictions, because that is that is the innate source that we just replaced lives with. We replace truth with lies, and we go to unhealthy sources. And we are normal in that process. That's part of this maturing sanctification process. So Crawshaw, if you want to come back in, I say we get to some q&a days, and get into some, some answers, or at least try.

Unknown: 35:39

Yeah, this has been incredible stuff. Man, I think for probably for the two of you, one of the things we talk about sometimes is, people do the same thing and expect a different result, right? And that's crazy making or whatever. And in this context, sometimes people are doing the same thing, but just saying, I'm going to do it harder, I'm going to do it better. So it doesn't it take us longer to realize that what we're doing isn't working, because we think next time around, I'm just going to try harder.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 36:10

Robert, you want me to feel that? Yeah, jump in? Yeah, I think part of the process in the fixation is coming to a place of realizing that trying harder is not going to fix the problem. For me, it took 14 years as a believer to come to the end to myself to say, I've got no game. I can't do this. I am powerless. I'm 59 years old. A year ago, November 1 2022, I had to admit to a group of people, to Dear friends, to my family, and to my sponsor, that I am a compulsive Overeater, and addicted to sugar, and then I'm powerless to do anything about it. Because I've had so many diets where I've lost 20 pounds, 30 pounds, gained it back lost 40 pounds, gained it back. And I said to myself to God, and my best friend, I will not go on another diet to do this. Again, that is crazy making and what the solution was was powerlessness. See, that striving and trying harder is a burden that we were never meant to carry. And we can't live the Jesus abundant life because Jesus said, in Matthew 1128, to 30, in the message, I will never lay anything heavy, or ill fitting on you. So come to me to learn free to learn to live freely and lightly, and you will recover your life. So that trying harder, I would say very respectfully, good luck with that. But you can actually give that up. That's the invitation of Jesus.

Robby Angle: 37:46

I think of like my own life. And if pride is the chief sin, and humility is the chief virtue. Pride, I like to think of just as a definition means I can, I want to be in control, I want to be I don't want to need God. Humility says I can't and with my patterns of addiction, and I wake up every day wanting to think I can. And it is then in humility, that humility unlocks grace, and it unlocks me trusting God and others with myself. And that is the gift of grace that's unlocked when we come to the end of ourselves. And so what an opportunity to experience love to receive love to let God love us and others love us in this space of hey, I've done this a lot of times, and it's not working. I I would love to process with you and let you love me, God and one other person. That's the gift of this journey. And I wake up every day, not wanting to do the humble surrender game. I don't like it.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 38:49

Yeah, yeah, Robbie, that whole idea of what you said, and tying back to self deception, the big self deception is saying, I can overcome this, I will overcome this through my effort. And through trying harder. And the good news is I don't have to, can I make one quick comment because I'm not seeing the questions. But something popped up. I don't know why I saw this. I think it's really important. Somebody said, I'm an introvert, and connection with people can be exhausting and overwhelming. And how does connection help. And I think a lot of people will benefit from this connection always has three levels of connection. There's a connection to our own, being, there's a connection to self, our body, mind, emotions in will, which is what the soul is connection to self, then there's connection to others, and then there's connection to God. And if I'm not connected to myself, my connection to God will be at best cognitive, and intellectual. And if I'm not connected to myself, when I'm connected with others, it may not really be a connection, and there might be parts of me that are really being held back. And therefore if my deepest desire is to be loved, and Knowing which I believe is the deepest desire of humanity, then I'm going to come up empty every time in that relationship. So I honor the introverts. I thought my whole life I was an extrovert, and I'm an ambivert. I'm right on the line, and I need to I need to get away and connect to myself, then I've got the energy to go to others.

Unknown: 40:17

Yeah, that's great, Michael, I'm looking at the exact question that you're looking at. And I actually wanted to ask you the question, up above that which was written by an anonymous attendee, who wanted to ask about Will you be addressing how to live with someone with addictions or problematic behaviors.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 40:35

We don't address that in the videos, except to say that this will actually help you to understand what's going on. You know, if you are in a relationship with someone with any kind of compulsive behavior, it will be crazy making to you. And what I would say right now, this is the mantra of Al Anon, for people that live with alcoholics. You didn't cause it, you can't control it, you can't cure it. And that knowledge in your head won't help as much as integrating that into your body because that's a journey to learn how to surrender. Changing the person's behavior. I would also turn to the Serenity Prayer, which originally wasn't in the 12 steps. A 1930s, German theologian by the name of Reinhold Niebuhr wrote a long prayer, and AAA borrowed the beginning of it, God grant me the serenity, to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. So if you're living with someone with an addiction or compulsion, pray that prayer. And it's a very biblical prayer. And you can even Google Reinhold Niebuhr and find the rest of it, because it's beautiful. It's just a beautiful prayer.

Unknown: 41:48

That's great. Robbie, do you mind putting up that QR code again, real quick while I asked Michael, this next question. So Michael, someone wanted you to expand on the comment you said, and that's the QR code where you guys can go directly to our app where breaking the cycle is there? And what Michael was just referring to we instead of trying harder, what if we tried a different approach? And that's what these conversations are all about? Robbie and Michael also do some modeling in breaking the cycle where they actually demonstrate how to have some of these conversations, which is incredibly powerful. There's questions for you that you can go through. And somebody asked, Does the true face app look like a fingerprint? Yes, that's exactly what it looks like. You can scan that code, it will take you directly there. So Michael, the question was this that you made the comment, my issue isn't with my desire, but how I handle my desire based on what I've learned in my relationships? Can you expand on that?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 42:44

Yes, my friend, Kurt Thompson, who's a psychiatrist who wrote a book called The anatomy, the soul, and most recently the deepest place, he says that God inherits the same neural networks that we have in relation to other people. So we come into the world and our brain is being formed up until we're about 2627 years old. And we either develop the apparatus to live in a way where we can be seen soothe safe and secure, and other people relate to us in a way where we can feel secure in our own skin. But research says that only about 60% of Americans have this secure kind of attachment, where we feel comfortable in our own skin to be able to get our needs met reliably by another person who is safe, who suits us and who sees us. And so when I say that, that, that God gets those same neural networks, we have these neural pathways towards these behaviors. And we have to begin to let those neural pathways be rewired. So we oftentimes don't have a reference point for love to say, Oh, love, God is love, I can turn to Him and allow Him to be the one to handle our pain. We have to like a muscle or like training for a marathon. This idea of learning how to steward our pain, and to trust God and others with our pain, versus mishandling our pain that happens over time. And honestly, that's what the word discipleship is. Jesus didn't invite us to be His followers by saying, Okay, now that you've understood, and you're going to do it just right, I want you to follow me. He said, Pick up your nets and follow me and you're going to lose your life, your way of doing things, your way of trying to find happiness and satisfaction. You're going to surrender that over time. And you're going to find life in me. And you're going to be able to handle and steward your pain in a way that actually makes you more alive and it makes you more of who you're meant to be as opposed to less.

Robby Angle: 44:56

I love that, Michael, just the connection between and trust being like a muscle that we work out and as desire leads to if I become more attentive, instead of fixated on what's happening in order to surrender to God and others, that conduit of trust to then trust God to meet the needs to replace those lies that I'm fixated on with truth, to let you love me to let you in, in my life, as you've done as a friend to love me, that trust muscle is this way of following Jesus of discipleship of practicing and getting quicker to trust God and trust you with my son.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 45:38

Right? And Robbie, I'll just come back to this point, it's so important to the degree that we've been seen, soothe safe and secure those four core needs for a healthy, secure attachment to the degree that we get those, that's the ability that we have to trust. That is the foundation of a kind of pyramid, that if we don't get those sufficiently, we will struggle to trust others will either be anxiously working up trying to try to secure that relationship, but they won't abandon us or rejection us or will pull back and we'll avoid that intimacy in that connection to get our needs met. And then either of those, it's up to us to get our needs met, as opposed to surrendering to love.

Robby Angle: 46:21

Gosh, even in the vertical this morning, I was praying, like about some anxiety stuff I'm feeling and going God, like I'm not feeling safe. Like you've gotten me out on this thing. And I don't feel like you've got my back here. And processing that with God, I was quicker. I think I'm maturing, because I was quicker to identify. attentiveness and go to God and say, like, I, I want to surrender and trust you more deeply in order to experience that like yo, that freedom to replace that live anxiety of this and that in my life. And I want to be quicker and better at doing that. Five years from now. And I think I'm quicker and better doing that than I was five years ago. And it's still hard every day. And that's the process of discipleship, which is Yeah. And muttering that's, yeah, I love that. All right, I've hijacked it. Then. Benjamin, I'll step back and let you go to another question.

Unknown: 47:14

We have eight minutes left, if you want to, you can go back to full screen. We're just going to fire away with a few others. But Michael, I wanted to give you a opportunity while everyone is here. A few people are asking you about your book, you said it comes out this fall Correct?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 47:29

Yeah, that's correct. I think I referred to surfing for God, which I wrote in 2012. And that's called surfing for God discovering the divine desire beneath sexual struggle. And that's my personal story out of sex addiction, but also a model of healing for men. It's applicable to women, but it's written for men. Others have found it helpful for things like eating issues, etc. But the new book is with InterVarsity press. And that's coming out in the fall of 2024. It's called Love has you subtitle to be determined, but it's really all about how these four needs are being seen, soothe safe and secure, are the foundation for our ability to attach securely to God, and to rest deeply in his love.

Unknown: 48:14

Yeah, that's great. And a lot of people in the chat stream, we're talking about how they listen to your podcast, they're big fans, it's extremely helpful for them. So that that's awesome. And we just, we appreciate you guys, and you and partnering up with us on all of this. We're.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 48:32

So I'm so honored to be able to do this. I love true face. I love Robbie. And I love what you guys do.

Unknown: 48:40

So Robbie, somebody asked if it was possible for you to do this conversation, the break your cycle conversation with a couple of different people all being one on one, but at the scent, you know, four or five different people? Can you go through it at the same time?

Robby Angle: 48:54

Yeah, I mean, if you're, if you have the margin, emotionally or timewise, to walk with multiple people through this, this, this hopefully would be a great framework and a conversation looks like, Hey, Michael, let's do these conversations. I'd love to walk with you through them. So all we do is we watch the 10 minute video sometime during the day. And then let's have a 15 to 20 minute conversation at 445 on the drive home on Tuesdays for the next six weeks. You can set it up, do it on your own timeframe. And so you can slide these in and just go on Hey, all right, what are four questions today? The first one typically is what stood out to you or what resonated in that 10 minute video, and then the other three are more personalized to the topic of the video. So you can do that with I think there's a groups that wants to try this in a smaller group or one on one or with multiple people. Beyond your mask is another true face conversation that we built and it is eight conversations to walk together with somebody to unpack I identity and theology in view of God and self. And I think a friend of mine and Montana, Craig Anderson, he's, he's doing that with multiple people at the same time. And so I'm sure, if you've got the bandwidth, you could do this with multiple people, but And the whole goal is we provide tools to help equip you to apply these truths in your relationships in the circles of influence God's given you. So this came out of, of y'all asking us to build this tool for you, because we're starting. So I interphase we are We exist to serve our brothers and sisters with, you know, environments and counseling intensives and with tools and resources at Tru fe, so let us know what you need. This came out of y'all asking for tools and resources. So we hope it helps.

Unknown: 50:48

Yeah, that's great. Okay, Michael, someone asked, if you are a spouse of someone addicted, is it wise to be the person who goes through breaking your cycle with them? Or is it better to have somebody else?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 51:00

I would say it's not wise. And the reason for that is that there's a sense of safety that the person who's the addict probably needs, that it could be activating and dis regulating and potentially even cause some trauma and significant anxiety by doing that. I would say that after long periods of sobriety, or freedom, that it could be helpful just to kind of get to know each other. But for the purposes of breaking free, I would say to do it with somebody outside of the marriage or the relationship.

Unknown: 51:35

Yeah, that's great. All right, we're gonna go last question. I told everybody, we're going to be respectful of their time. I know we could talk all day, all day. So John asked the question, what role might spiritual warfare play in addictions? And that's interesting, because a friend of mine who just passed away at 90 years old, who has been involved in all kinds of like addiction, leading addiction recovery groups, he always would talk to me about how there's this point where something goes from an addiction to what he would call a stronghold. And I don't know if he was referring to it in spiritual terms like John's referring to but it is an interesting question, like, Where does spiritual warfare and the enemy and all of that come into play with all this

MICHAEL CUSICK: 52:18

fantastic question, and I'm really glad you brought that up. I was in Wichita two weeks ago at the apprentice gathering and I saw some names on here were some of those people were in my workshops, and I did a workshop called spiritual formation in spiritual warfare. And it's usually not talked about because spiritual warfare is often that's for the Charismatics, the Pentecostals. And yet it's a reality in our lives. I think that you're exactly right. It plays out in the form of beliefs and lies. I do believe that there are demonic realities that we deal with. There are also powers and principalities which are these much bigger belief systems and structures. But Second Corinthians 10, verse three says, The weapons we fight with in this battle, are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, we have divine power to demolish strongholds, every belief and lie that stands in the way of knowing God. And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. But anybody who's been around the block, trying to get rid of an unwanted behavior has probably said, my pastor a podcast, my friend told me to take these thoughts captive, right? Lust, thinking about whatever it is that we're going to do. But the problem is, we try to take the thoughts captive without demolishing the stronghold. And in surfing forgot, I hope I have a whole chapter on this invisible battle on Spiritual Warfare. And I wrote surfing for God right when Osama bin Laden was captured. And I say that, applying Second Corinthians 10, seven, taking things captive without demolishing the stronghold is like the Navy SEALs flying into Pakistan, knocking on the door and saying, Oh, Hello, Mrs. Bin Laden, we'd like to talk to your husband. That's not how it worked. They had to demolish the compound, and take out the people inside. And the stronghold are the beliefs and lies that have been internalized that have come against us, like shame. The evil one primarily uses shame, an accusation. Revelation 12 tells us that we have an accuser, but we overcome him by the blood of the lamp. Sometimes that means literally praying the blood of Jesus and other times it means I'm standing in the reality of what Christ did on the cross. So we have to identify as part of this process and we get into this in the video series not about spiritual warfare, but about the beliefs and lies. What do I believe about myself? Oh, I'm unworthy. I'm a bad person. I'm inadequate. I'm unlovable, nobody could love me for who I really am. I'll never change those kinds of things. As we begin to identify those. There's a spiritual power that breaks and God has given us that divine power to demolish that stronghold.

Unknown: 54:57

Yeah, that's great. I mean, that's incredible. questions keep coming in. But again, I told everybody, we would be respectful of their time. info at Tru face.org. If you guys want to continue this discussion, we'll get to as much of it as we can, again, you can follow restoring the soul podcast, talk about a lot of this stuff, and check out breaking your cycle to just open up the conversation. That's a lot of what this did. And you guys both acknowledge that there. Sometimes there are people in situations they need to get immediate professional help, right. But this is a place where we're opening up the discussion or Michael to your point, sometimes it's just been just between God and I. And now I'm gonna, the living waters gonna have to come in the form of a relationship with another person. And that's what this is all about six sessions, conversation set up, would love for all of you to check this out, pass this along to somebody will give you access to this webinar that you can forward to some people, for them to have an opportunity to listen to it. But Robbie, thank you so much for your time. Michael, thank you for what you're doing and being so generous with your time with us. Grateful for you and grateful for all of you who took time out of your schedule, to be a part of this. We love you. We're grateful for you. Email us if there's anything that we can do to help and just be looking for more resources like this coming down the pipeline. Love you guys. Thank you have a great rest of the day.