Episode 288 - Michael with Peter Zaremba, "7 Toxic Outcomes of Maintaining Control"

Welcome to another episode of Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick. Today, Peter Zaremba is our guest, and we'll dive into the intricate topic of control and its negative impact. Control has become a paramount issue, particularly during the pandemic and times of global upheaval. It's a universal human condition, a survival mechanism, but often, the desire to control is tethered to our outcomes, and that's where things start getting complicated. 

Join us as we share our journeys with control, our struggles, and the toll it has taken on our well-being. It's not always easy to accept what we can't control, but there's a certain liberation in letting go. We'll explore the concept of the 'circle of control' - envisioning those things squarely under our control and those that aren't. 

As we meditate on our collective challenges with outcomes and control, we'll face the hard truth - that our happiness doesn't stem from our control over outcomes. We'll explore the confusing difference between a healthy desire for change and an unhealthy attachment to results. We'll delve into how our craving for control can lead to emotional turmoil, relationship struggles, and even addictive behaviors. 

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Transcript

MICHAEL CUSICK: 0:00

Hello my friends welcome back to the restoring the soul Podcast. I'm Michael and today I'm with my dear friend Peter's a rumba, who you have heard before on this podcast talking about centering prayer, the contemplative life. Peter, welcome back. Well, thanks great to be here, Michael. One of my greatest joys of the year Peter is that we get to room together and lead together at the restoring the soul weekend intensive. So haven't seen you for a couple of months since then. But ready to jump in. As we talk about control. We're going to talk about what control is, and seven ways that it really backfires with toxicity in our life. The next episode, we're going to talk about how to let go of control. And then the third one, what it means to practice acceptance, and specifically to use the Serenity Prayer that has meant a lot in both of our lives. So you're ready to jump in?

Peter Zaremba: 0:54

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, this is a topic really near and dear to my heart. But Michael, what, what's behind Can you unpack you know, why the desire to have a podcast on letting go of control?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:06

Great question. I think that I started to think a lot about control during the pandemic, when, of course, when a worldwide pandemic happens, people lose control. And suddenly, you know, our lives, which we were so seemingly in control of, we were quarantined. And regardless of what country people lived in, there were, by and large, at least initially mandates for masks and vaccines, and blah, blah, blah. And I think, part of the mental health revolution that has occurred that where people were impacted so deeply with grief and loss and anxiety and stress and losing their job and working from home. And economic upheaval was because we lost control, we were no longer living with the illusion that we can really control certain outcomes. That was the personal level. And then I started to really see the fallout of that, that people started to talk more and more about it in intensive counseling. Third, we work a lot with trauma, and I specialize in working with trauma with couples and individuals. And you know, by definition, trauma is an experience of powerlessness and experience of being out of control. And then we are, I think, just five weeks out from the attack upon Israel, and the war in Gaza and Israel. And there's once again, a global sense of being out of control. And there's a war between Russia and Ukraine, and the stock markets are precarious. And there's climate change. And we all have this sense of all of that is happening out there. And then what's happening inside of my own life. You know, you and I are at an age where we're just about 60 years old, and we have to start going to the doctors more often. And we both discovered there's things that we can't control, that we can take medication that we can exercise, but we don't know what's coming tomorrow in our tests for blood results. So I think the final answer, the bottom line is that I've really come to realize that the cause of most of my suffering in my life, is due to my issue with control, not the things that happened to me. And if you'd asked me this 10 or 20 years ago, what's the cause of suffering, I would have pointed to legitimate real experiences of abuse, and boundary crossing, and trauma. And that's all still real, that it caused trauma, but the suffering is actually my relationship with the bad things or the difficult things that have happened to me and my need to want to manage and control the outcome.

Peter Zaremba: 3:42

Yeah. So you know, Michael, I can relate to being a controlling person right there. Certainly, as a younger man, I was in a constant grasp, for control. I remember running into a guy I worked with about five years ago, we hadn't seen each other in about seven years. And we used to work closely him in his company. And he said, it, we're talking about how we've changed over the years and all that. And he basically said, hey, look, you know, we love working with you, but you were the most controlling person we'd ever met. And driving home, I was just like, it saddened me, I didn't, I wasn't aware of it. So I'm wondering if there might be people listening who like would say, hey, and their self assessment, I'm not a controlling person. You know, I know controlling people, you know, my father was controlling my boss is a controlling person. But you know, but I'm not. I'm not a controlling person. How do you how do you define control? How is it part of the universal human condition? Not just one person or another?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 4:43

Yeah. Well, I'm glad you clarified that because I was gonna say to your first point, that control really is a universal issue. And although there are people whether that's because they have a personality disorder or trauma or high level of anxiety, there are people that the way they see the world and act upon the world, they can't not be in control, they have to pre arrange and predetermined that certain things happen, or else they're not okay. But I do believe that it's universal experience. And that control is a kind of way that we survive in the world. It's a way that we protect ourselves. And so here's my simple definition. First of all, there's a, there's a positive aspect of control. If I don't want to become homeless, I need to pay my mortgage. If I don't want to die of a heart attack, I probably ought to not eat at McDonald's three times a day. If my I get very, very cold hands during the winter in Colorado, and to the point where my hands ache, so I have to take thyroid medication. And so I can control certain things. But I'm using control in a pejorative or negative way, which is that when there is a goal, or a desire that I have in my life, and if that does not come about, then I won't be okay. And what happens is, I become attached to this outcome, the goal, the desire, the outcome that I have is that does not happen, then I will react, that I will implode, or as we'll talk about there seven different ways where my control and being attached to an outcome really becomes toxic in my life, and it causes suffering. I

Peter Zaremba: 6:32

thought, you know, I heard Richard Rohr say, once people have the same reaction to suffering, right, you know, I don't have a lot of suffering in my life. And his definite working definition was suffering is anytime I'm not in control. That kind of resonates with me. And you've told me in the past, about when you work with your clients, about the circle of control, as kind of a teaching point, Can you unpack that? What's the circle of control mean?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 6:59

Yeah, we have talked about this. And this is something that we put onto a handout at restoring the soul. And I've used this for, I don't know, five years with people. And I was literally working with a man two weeks ago. And in a conversation, we were talking about him kind of, I think he's talking about how people have called him a bully in the past. And I was like, Well, you're not a bully as much as you're just not aware of your longings and what it is that you actually want. And just like what I said, Hold on a minute, I got up, got my whiteboard, and I drew these circles. And I'm not overstating this. But at the end of a two week intensive, he said, that changed my life. That was a little bit offended, because I was like, Well, come on, you know, my my other wisdom and things like that. And this was not original with me. But what the circle of control is, think about, first of all, like a bullseye target on a dartboard or archery. So here's a circle in the middle, that's about the size of a baseball, and then think about a circle that's about the size of a basketball. And the circle in the middle, the smaller circle represents the things that I can control. And, you know, let me ask you the rhetorical question, what what can you control. And at the end of the day, as we start to think about this, we can't really control a lot, I can control my words that I say, although I can't control the things that pop into my head, and some people will claim that I have no filter, as you well know. I can control the effort that I put in, I can control certain aspects of my behavior and my actions, I can control whether I take the medicine that the doctor prescribes me, but I can't control whether it actually has a healing medicinal effect. I can control the sending my payment in for my mortgage, but I can't control even though I assume it will happen that they will receive that and put that to my credit. So you know, what are the things that you think of control in terms of the category of what you can control? Oh,

Peter Zaremba: 9:02

I guess to some degree, you know, how I use my time, my actions, you know, the things that I can physically be responsible for, you know, who I reach out to, to contact? I think there's a lot I can control when you you know, what I put what I eat, right? You know, if I exercise or not, how I drive, and how that impacts the people around me. Stuff like that. That's that's what comes to mind.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 9:30

So I'll get to the second circle in a second and help to guide me if I forget, but you brought up a really important point, and that is that you said, what I eat. And if I exercise, let's just take those two examples. And a lot of people listening will say, Oh, okay, so now we're getting into the real meat of this because with my history of addictions, and especially with the recovery work I've done around the 12 steps, I got into the 12 steps be cuz I precisely couldn't control what I ate. And I have lived my whole life, even though you and I were wrestlers at competing high schools, in Cleveland, Ohio, I was a very disciplined athlete, but I would be on again off again, I would find myself working out intensely and compulsively, and then some, suddenly, the wind would come out of my sails. And I would stop. And it feels like my experience with exercise is something that I can't control because I'm not doing it consistently. And I can't sustain it. And there are people who would hear you say that you can control your driving, and they're going, Man, I wish that was me, because every time we drive my wife, Elena, elbows, me in the ribs, you know, and I've had to get X rays at the ER many times, because, you know, she says that my driving is out of control. So point number one around the circle of control is that we all have different experiences of what's within our control. And I would say that for those who have had trauma, they may have a very different definition of what they can control their mood, for example, their anxiety, for example. Now, having said that, the circle in the middle represents the things we can control. And then the circle that's larger than that the size of basketball are what we can't control, things like other people's actions, other people's words, or attitudes toward us, other people's ideas and convictions. So if I'm a Democrat, I want people to not be Republicans, if I'm a Republican, I want them to not be Democrats, if I'm a capitalist, you know, I can't control them being a socialist, other people's feelings, this is a really big one, other people's humility or willingness to own their ways that they've related to us or hurt us. And then obvious things like we can't control the economy, we can't control what's happening in foreign countries. And we can't even control whether our computer boots up tomorrow, or whether our phone signal goes through. So with everyday things, we often have this, this naive assumption that oh, yeah, I'm in control, until our phone goes down. Or until, in my case, my microwave stopped working out a week ago, and oh, my gosh, the impact on my life. And then to get the microwave fixed, that means that I have to make time for that on the phone. And I want to control that the person actually picks up the phone, and answers and talks with me versus a menu where I have to push five, and then push three, and then push one and then talk to a computer. And now I'm frustrated. And the goal that I have is I want to talk to someone to get my microwave fixed, and it's not happening. And so there's this outcome that I'm attached to. And when that doesn't happen, it causes a reaction. So back to the middle circle things I can control, the outer circle things I can't control. And if I am attached to or locked into or require that that outcome has to happen, in order for me to have peace, contentment, calm, the ability to be present in the moment to myself and God and others. If I'm attached to that, then I'm going to be in a miserable state.

Peter Zaremba: 13:20

Well, this really hits home, you know that that larger circle of what I can control as an Enneagram. Three, who's you know, obsessed with approval, esteem and affection, right? My false program for Happiness is when I get out of bed in the morning, I'll I will get you to love me. It never occurred to me that that was not only impossible, but that it is, it's completely beyond my control. You know, I've had a career, a career in sales, in the slightest look, the slightest negativity that I'm receiving from somebody who just has such incredible power in my life, in recovery circles, I was reminded of two weekends ago, of a great statement, and that is other people's opinion of me or none of my business. And when I heard that I went, I just went like, yeah, and yet, I just realized it's so difficult for me to live that, you know, I mean, I just I think there's I so long for a way to be able to get people to think well of me, you know, that's such power. But Michael say more about so this attachment to outcome.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 14:30

Let me come back to one thing. I just want to come back to what you just said about that, that quote that other people's opinions of me are none of my business. I love that. I think it's true. And yet, it's like I've got 100 different corporations going on that I'm running. And all of them are around me controlling other people's, you know, perceptions and ideas of me. So thank you for sharing that. You're an Enneagram three and you get out of bed, saying how can I get people to love me? I'm an Enneagram, too. How can you If people tell like me, and think of me as indispensable, and I'm going to help him profession, and I'm pretty good at what I do. So I'm always tempted to allow a certain level of indispensability, which is really not ultimately true, because if I dropped it tomorrow, people will be okay. But this belief that unless I can troll the outcome of getting you to like me, and I so relate to what you said, a look, a glance, a lack of response, I was in a meeting with a group of acquaintances and two strangers recently, and I introduced myself to someone who I thought ought to be duly impressed with me. And this person was so neutral. And you know, in my mind, I was like, they're outright cold that that person is, you know, they probably have some deep unresolved issue that they're not lining up to see me. And the the narrative in my mind of judgment that came about, and we take that word judgment about making this judgment or conclusion about this person, based on the fact that they weren't responding a certain way. Another word for judgment would be contempt, I started to form this opinion of contempt toward this person, which is anger. And it wasn't true in any way about this individual, it was simply because that person didn't validate me and respond to me in the way that has become my unconscious goal, which is my program for happiness. So everything we're talking about, is truly about freedom. If somebody's listening, I'm going, Okay, I'm resonating with this. But this, this feels like now I've got to micromanage my life and figure out everything that I'm in control about, I would just encourage people to take a deep breath and say, this is an opportunity for freedom. Because if I can enter into a room, and feel connected to myself, and to bring my own sense of value, and worth apart from needing to be impressive, or needing to get people to like me, then two things can happen. One is I'm actually free to love that person that may not be treating me the way I want. And the second thing is, I don't require anything of them. And they get to be having a bad day, or they get to have their own personality. Or they get to just form their own opinion of me without me having to manipulate that or something like that. And tell me, let's talk about this for a minute. And then we'll come back to more about the attachment. Would you say that as we're talking about this, and what I just said for you, Peter, that to give into I've got to control this outcome, that it's a kind of bondage, or almost addiction? Oh,

Peter Zaremba: 17:43

oh, absolutely. And I would say this, I was thinking this even though before you asked me that, so because I'm this all or nothing person, right? There's no analog, it's, it's on or off. When that beautiful quote, of other people's opinions of me or none of my business, when I'm sensing someone's displeasure, or somebody says, hey, you know what, so and so said about you, in a work situation, I think that if I'm healthy, I have to have this, you know, I'm impervious to it, it doesn't bother me at all. Where what I'm finding now is I catch myself, I'm catching myself, where it's starting to, I'm not having an emotion, it has me. And it's starting to pull me in, I can stop. And like you've mentioned, or it's that, catching myself and then trying to let go, which is never immediate, right? It's a series of, of maybe just self confession, self awareness. Here I go again. And and so, so there's, there's shades of freedom in it, if that makes sense. Yeah,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 18:57

it does. And thank you for making that distinction. And we're going to come back in episode two and three and talk more about that acceptance of the process and acceptance of our control. And it's not about trying to push it underwater or relegated or make it go away, but about actually learning to be with it. So what were you saying you wanted to ask about? The attachment to outcomes?

Peter Zaremba: 19:18

Yeah, yeah. So I think I understand what that means. But unpack it, like, what does that look like? How does that show up in our lives?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 19:28

Yeah, so let's what's in what's been what's,

Peter Zaremba: 19:30

if you don't mind? What's the difference between like, you know, like, there's times when I feel like, I'm responsible to make a change in something that is behind, you know, like, there's there's a, there are good desires for things to change. And so what's the desert? What's the difference between attaching to an income does an outcome and, you know, having a sincere desire for the right thing? The right change to take place?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 19:59

Yeah, well, First, first of all, I think the difference between an outcome that we're attached to that has to happen. And one that is something I can more easily release, it's the difference between a desire and a demand. The desire is, I want my hands to not be freezing and aching during the winter. And so I'm taking this thyroid medication, and I know someone's going to write me a letter and say, oh, you should try this over the counter kind of thing. Thank you people always do that. So my desire is for my hands to be not aching, and cold. So I'm going to take the medication, if I have a not just a desire, but a demand, I cannot be happy, I cannot be content, I cannot rest, I cannot be in a place of peace. And I'm going to be very anxious or angry at God and my doctor, if this medication doesn't work, there's the difference between the desire and the demand and being attached to the outcome is a kind of clenched fist that says, I will make this happen. So if a person is unhappy in their marriage, and their spouse is clearly like an angry person, or is a workaholic, or giving them the silent treatment, and if that spouse who's done nothing wrong, says they must change, they have to deal with their workaholism or their alcoholism. And if not, I cannot be happy. That person is setting themselves up for failure because they can't control the other person's workaholism, anger or alcohol addiction. And so we're throwing a lot of terms around it's not quite codependency, but it is a kind of dependency upon the other person doing what I want and need them to do. And ultimately the bondage comes in with when they change, I'll be okay. Only when they're okay. Will I be okay?

Peter Zaremba: 22:08

That's really helpful that the idea of desire and demand, right, and the reason it's helpful for me is, there's a part of me that that, when I consider that larger circle, things, I can't control, knowing how much I've tried to control what's in that circle, I feel shame. And so what I what I'm grateful for is, you know, we talk a lot about you and I and another friend of ours, the triads of the Enneagram, legitimate desires for controlling power, legitimate desires for safety and security, legitimate desires for esteem, affection, approval, not to shame myself for wanting those things in and I lean toward the esteem, approval and affection, but it's God given, it's when at some point, I cross a line, and I demand those things, I will get it, I'll get it, I'll demand it.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 23:00

Right. And this has said, Not toward you, but in general toward anyone and it's not about shame is that at that point, the relationship becomes transactional, and it becomes using other people, the opportunity to have a clean loving relationship can't be there, because I'm relating to you in order to get back the certain result, which in your case is to be loved. And my case, is to be like, so I talked about desire versus demand. And another two kind of contrasting words would be the inner circle of things I can control, it's in that place where I can rest. And I can be calm, and I can have contentment, and I can just generally be okay. But in the outer circle that I can't control, if I'm attached to that outcome, I'll require that that has to happen. So I will require something of other people where they can no longer freely do it. So resting versus requiring desiring versus demanding.

Peter Zaremba: 24:00

I like that. That's, that's very helpful. So Michael, let's say that, after this podcast, I hang up and I go, that's nice. But you know, I'm gonna, I'm attached to some outcomes tonight. You know, I want this there's some things going on this weekend, and I have a clearer idea of how it ought to go in and I get attached to, to outcome what what are the consequences, you know, what, what are the what are the traps? What are what are the pitfalls of attaching to outcome. This

MICHAEL CUSICK: 24:35

is where it gets really powerful Peter, because when we see how our attachment to the outcome or requiring the outcome or demanding the outcome, or the goal or desire we have when we're attached to that, we specifically see how that impacts us. And there's seven impacts, four of which are general and the three which are particular. So I'll go through the first one. The first thing is that If we're attached to an outcome, and that does not happen, I will become depressed. And this has actually been a real dynamic in my life, as I've talked about so much on this podcast, that I've lived with a bipolar type two mood disorder for 25 years. And someone years ago called depression, a disorder of power, which is really, we feel depressed, we implode, we deflate, we lose passion and energy, when we're powerless to bring about an outcome, when we have at one point demanded that the outcome happens and it doesn't. And we just give up, it's like, we throw up our hands, it's like the pin goes into the balloon, the balloon pops. All the air leaks out of it, and we become depressed. A second response is anger. And so if I have a goal, a desire an outcome, let's say that, that an individual is single and dating someone, and they claim to have fallen in love with that person. And as you and I, as former youth pastors know, all too well, that person says God told them that they're supposed to marry this girl. I think we both know a person that we're talking about. And that girl goes, God didn't tell me that. And the person says, but but God told me and so they pursue and they pursue, and today, we have stalking laws and things like that, thank goodness. But that person, when that young woman doesn't respond, that person gets angry, because they think they are entitled to that other person's affection. And anger is when my goal is blocked, when the desire will not come about. And when what I'm requiring is outside of my control, and if we don't become depressed, anger is almost the opposite. Instead of deflating, I inflate instead of getting smaller, I become larger, and I become more powerful. And here's the thing, the more powerful is not just an attempt to try to knock down the brick wall between the outcome and myself. But when we're angry, it's very energizing adrenaline through our system. And there's something about anger that feels life giving, it feels a lot better than depression. So if you ask anybody who's been depressed, would you rather feel depressed or angry, and frequently, they're one in the same, because Freud used to say that depression is anger turned inward, most people would say, Oh, I'll take anger, because there's energy and life and passion in that. But anger is often the result of a blocked goal or outcome that we can control. And I wanted, I wanted to just lead the listeners so that you know, because this is restoring the soul podcast, I would take people to James chapter four. And James, the brother of Jesus poses this question in chapter four, he says, what causes fights and quarrels among you? In other words, why are you so angry in relationships, and he goes, you want something, but you do not have it. Which is interesting. It's you have this desire, there is an outcome that you are seeking that you can't control, you don't have it. And when it doesn't happen, James says, you kill and you cover it. So your contempt and your anchor goes outward. And the coveting is, I just, I take, I want, I want, I want what I can't have. And this is kind of the scriptural basis of this whole idea of the circle of control, that there's so much that we can't control that God says, in effect, you're gonna have to trust me. Because if you can control the universe of your world, Michael Cusick, if you can control the universe of your world, number one, you're going to cause harm to yourself and other people because you're not God. And secondly, you get to actually be loved and cared for and live under the wisdom and the wings have the ultimate sense of love. And so this principle is really, really important. All of this, trying to control the outcomes. And that outer ring of control is really about me looking for my own safety, and security. I'm going to want to manage my life so that I will be safe, so that I will be secure. A third response when we can't control the outcome. The first is depression. The second is anger. And the third is anxiety. And I won't go into detail about this. And I once did a whole conference around anger, depression, anxiety, and addiction, four A's from different characters from the Bible. But it's interesting that if we are attached to an outcome, or something has to happen, let's just say that I'm going to give a talk. And I'm going to give a talk to the largest audience that I've ever done. And it's in an arena and there's 17,000 people there. And my goal is I have to hit a home Ron, I can't just step up to the podium and give a talk from my heart. Because I know that that might not guarantee a response where people would like me where people give me a standing ovation where people say, he's the smartest funniest person we've ever known, I've got to hit a homerun. So I'm gonna get up and I'm going to be anxious, I'm going to try to make that happen, there's going to be chemicals that get released in my system. And the moment that happens, I'm not going to be present, I'm not going to be grounded. And even though I'm there to, quote, minister to or give to the audience, I'm on the take. I'm there trying to get something from them, rather than to quote, bless them, and to give to them, because there's now a transaction that's happening. I'm gonna get up and teach you truth. But you're gonna like me, you're gonna love me. And now I'm not free. I'm actually giving this talk and I'm in bondage. And one of the places where we see this in Scripture is in Exodus, chapters three through five in the story of Moses, everybody knows about Moses in the burning bush, Moses is walking in the desert one day, and this bush is a fire and it doesn't burn up, and God meets him there. And God basically says, Hey, Moses, I've got some new plans for your life, I'm going to send you to rescue my people that are oppressed. And Moses starts making excuses and asking questions five different times. And you and I have joked about this in the past, but it's like an episode of Get Smart, where Maxwell Smart used to say what you believe, you know, it's trying to convince the chief into some kind of some kind of reality that is, is unconvincing. And so basically, Moses says, Who should I tell them is sending me to rescue because they're not going to believe me? And they said, but I don't talk well, so I'm a person of poor speech. And God kind of covers the bases on that. And he says, But I'm, but I'm not very powerful. And he says, throw down the staff, and it turns into a snake. And God does all these miracles. It says, If God is just going over the top to show Moses, I've got this, Moses, I've got this. And the fifth time, in the fifth interaction of God saying, I'm choosing you for this particular goal to rescue my people, Moses goes, send someone else. That's like, you know, the the President of the United States calling up you and me and saying, I'd like you to come to the White House, because we want to talk with you about how people can become more joyful. And we would love to do that. And I'm assuming that you and I would go, regardless of the administration, and basically saying, I don't know about that. And, you know, what kind of snacks are you having, and but Moses is afraid that he's not going to be able to achieve the goal that God is saying, he's put on his heart. And all of his hemming and hawing is rooted in anxiety. And we see that over and over in the Moses, Exodus story. And he finally just lets the anxiety dominate. And he takes himself out. God sent somebody else. And then at that point, it says that God burned with anger. And I just want to make the point here, because I always talk about how God that looks like Jesus is not angry with us. I believe that what it means that God burned with anger. And I recently heard a sermon on this, that if you look at the etymology of that word, burned with anger, that God got in his face, and not get his face. And if people are watching the video right now, like this, with his eyes, big and just furious. Think of it this way God got in his face, he moved closer to Moses, he became more intimate. He moved into Moses, his personal space, as if to say, I'm going to, I'm going to talk to you in a more intimate way right now. And I am so convinced that this is something that you can do because of me, that you're going to miss out. The burning with anger is a picture of God, standing in the way of Moses, his own foolishness and the burning with anger is a picture of moving closer. So for people who hear this, or who have read this or other passages like this in the Old Testament before, when it says that God burned with anger, it's not God turning red and ready to smite. It's God just like the God and Jesus moving closer, closer, closer, and talking about what's happening in our heart. And it says, If God is saying, Moses, I see that you believe the outcome here is dependent on you. And guess what? It's not about you. And I'm going to teach you to let go of this outcome. This is not something that you have to control. So it's a beautiful story about the circle in the middle. There's some things that Moses can control. He went out for a walk He couldn't control that he saw a burning bush. He couldn't control that it wasn't burning up. But he could control his conversation in his reaction with God, where he was called to surrender and to say, Hey, God, I guess there's some things that you know that I don't. And so I'm going to accept. I'm going to surrender I'm going to trust. So Peter, let me talk about the fourth a. And then I want to talk about five, six and seven very quickly. And then we're going to come back for another podcast episode, depressed, angry, anxious or addicted. If a person is attached to the outcome, and it doesn't happen, they will have to keep going back and back and back and back. And we see this in Jeremiah chapter two, verse 13, this famous passage where Jeremiah says, And God speaking through and my people have committed to, since they've turned for me the spring of living water, and they have dug cisterns broken systems that cannot hold water. And this is a picture of addiction. The deep thirst in our heart is for my hands to not ache, the deep thirst is for the young man to have the woman return the affections. The deep thirst is for the woman that struggling with infertility, to become pregnant, to conceive and to bear a child. We see this throughout the Bible. And you and I know people that have struggled with this. And it's a deep, deep, deep ache, and it's a legitimate, beautiful God given ache. But if that is the demand and something that I require, I'm going to be a very unhappy person in if not depressed, where I give up, if not angry, where I rev up and get big, if not anxious, where I'm constantly wandering and spinning as to whether or not this outcome will happen, I will become addicted. And I'll have to move towards some person, some behavior, some process or even some substance, to bring some kind of soothing and contentment to my inner world. And so manipulating and trying to control outcomes leads to depression, anxiety, anger, and anxiety. And the final thing is it leads on three levels, five, six, and seven, to conflict and pain in relationships, which somebody might say that's really obvious. But whenever we're depressed, angry, anxious and addicted, or if in a relationship, I need someone to be a certain way, that's going to impact my relationship with them, I can't love that person, I can't be happy with them until there's a certain kind of outcome, it will affect my relationship with God, where I will have a clenched fist at God and not be trusting not be open, not be receptive to his love that wants to fill my being from the inside out, which could actually give me a sense of peace in the midst of the worst and hardest circumstances. And then finally, it's going to impact my relationship with myself. If I'm attached to the outcome, and that doesn't happen, it will affect my emotions, it will affect my thinking, and it will affect my body. I've seen people in counseling, and I've seen it in my own life, where physical medical illnesses and symptoms are there, because in the midst of really difficult circumstances, people for whatever reason, are lacking the apparatus or the resources or the skills to learn how to be calm, present, peaceful, grounded, serene, and have acceptance when they can't control what's happening around them. So those are the toxic consequences. And I would love it if you could come back and we could talk in another episode about how we let go of control. Yeah,

Peter Zaremba: 38:39

I would, I would love to do that. And, you know, again, near and dear to my heart for so many years. For decades, really. I lived within such patterns of compulsive thinking compulsive behavior, compulsive emotions, and there was the small, tiny little voice inside of it and always just got this there's got to be another way. Yeah, there has to be another there has to be some level of freedom from that cycle of just and all the compulsion was that you're trying to get my world to beasts up to attaching to I had a picture of you know, if I just had this if I buy if I just close this business, I just had this money if I just had this debt paid off, that life was gonna be great. And everything was gonna be fine. So I'd love to come back and for us to continue pursuing this. Thanks for what you shared tonight.