Episode 290 - Rob Mathes, "Bridging the Sacred and Secular: A Chat with Rob Mathes"

Welcome to another episode of Restoring the Soul.

Today, we welcome the extraordinarily gifted Rob Mathes, a true maestro who has woven his life around the threads of music, working with legends across genres from classical to hip-hop and transforming the sacred into song. Rob's annual Christmas concert, celebrating its 30th anniversary this weekend, has been a melting pot of musical styles, capturing the essence of his spiritual journey through soulful melodies and collaborations with icons like Vanessa Williams, Michael McDonald, and David Sanborn.

In Michael's conversation with Rob, you’ll discover the profound personal significance behind his song "Although It Is the Night," inspired by St. John of The Cross’s poem “Dark Night of the Soul”. Rob will also take us behind the scenes of his work with musical giants such as Bruce Springsteen and the incomparable Stevie Wonder. 

This is more than a conversation; it's a journey through the soulful symphony of life and faith with Rob Mathes as our guide. 

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Transcript

MICHAEL CUSICK: 0:01

Hi and welcome to another episode of restoring the soul. I'm your host Michael John Cusack and today I am welcoming the extraordinarily gifted Rob Mathis, a true Maestro was woven his life around the threads of music, working with legends across genres from classical to hip hop, and transforming the sacred into secular song. Rob's annual Christmas concert celebrating its 30th anniversary this weekend has been a melting pot of musical styles that captures the essence of his spiritual journey through soulful melodies and collaborations with icons like Vanessa Williams, Michael McDonald, the saxophone player, David Sanborn, and even sting. I am so excited because in 36 hours, I'm going to be in New York City, watching Rob and the ROB Mathis band perform live. This interview was recorded at the 25th anniversary of the Christmas concert, but I've never actually attended live so I am so thrilled to be able to bring an encore presentation of this podcast and my conversation with Rob, you'll discover the profound personal significance behind his song although it is the night that song is inspired by St. John of the Cross this poem dark night of the soul. Rob is going to take us behind the scenes of his work with musical giants such as my favorite Bruce Springsteen and the incomparable Stevie Wonder. This is more than a conversation. It's a journey through the soulful symphony of life and faith. With Rob Mathis is our guide. Rob Mathis, thank you so much for taking time to be on the program today. It's a pleasure. You have performed with so many different people and a lot of big names in a lot of different genres of music. You've been an arranger, a composer, a producer names like Sting and Bondo. And Bruce Springsteen and Luciana Pavarotti come to mind just eclectic as pretty eclectic, yet I heard you say on your video, beyond the music, that you would trade all of that. If you could not be a songwriter, you give up all of that, because you just want to write songs talk me about what songwriting means to you? Well, what

Rob Mathes: 2:17

I meant to them is that when I was talking to kids at Brigham Young and University of Utah, and what I meant was, you know, a lot of people have asked me when they hear my records, Rob, would you just rather do that, you know, all the time, kind of be a pop star. And when I was in high school, I did think that I was going to be a singer, songwriter, and just do that all year round. But music has been such an abiding thing in my life. It's been every moment of every day, I just think and breathe music that when I, you know, discovered Mahler and Beethoven and Ellington and all this, you know, becoming an arranger and writing a Big Horn charged on an r&b song or writing a, an orchestration for Renee Fleming, the great opera singer. That's what a wonderful thing to be able to do that. And yet, I've been able to funnel some funds from that work over the last 20 years into continually making my own records. But I, you know, I had three kids, I married an incredible woman, and it's difficult to be a pop star when you're a family man. And you're, you like working in a bunch of different genres, and you're busy watering a lot of other people's gardens at the same time. But what I did say to the kids, was not I would give it all up if I could just be a songwriter. Rather, if I knew that in order to work with those great people, I would have to give up songwriting, I wouldn't have done it. Meaning that my work as a writer for myself and as a composer, I've always believed and still believe makes me better for them. When I'm working with staying and he wants me to solve a problem on a song, or if I'm writing a song with him, I mean, one of the strongest songs off the last ship record we we wrote together called practical arrangement with which Branford Marsalis has since covered. I'm better for him because I've been writing my own music since I was a boy. And if I had to give that up and only be on that treadmill of writing for other people, I would have said no.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 4:26

You started performing and writing songs very, very young. And you also started touring and had a lot of success early on. Well,

Rob Mathes: 4:32

you're kind I mean, I, I when I was young, when I was just about 20 I toured with Chuck man, Gianni great jazz Flugel horn player who is not as well known now, but I mean, he's one of those rare guys who had a huge pop hit with an instrument feel

MICHAEL CUSICK: 4:50

so good. It feels so good. Even the 84 Olympic thing. Yep,

Rob Mathes: 4:54

yep, give it all you gotta think that. Anyway, so that was a nice thing, and I played it. The Empire club in my early 20s on 42nd and Lex, and no 48th and Lex and Chris Botti. The trumpet player was in the band Andy Snitzer, who's now Paul Simon's main tenor player was in the band Mike Davis went on to play with the Rolling Stones. The drummer is now the drummer on the Carole King musical and played with Hiram Bullock for years the Letterman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the bass player played from this band at the Empire club, but eventually played for me when I musically directed Vanessa Williams tours. So it was that was it was cauldron of musicality was incredible. And I started writing when I was very, very young. My parents are both musicians. Dad's a class classically trained clarinetist, but secret Bob Dylan and Beatles fan. And mom teaches Chopin and Beethoven. And so I just got into it very early. I loved it very, very early, and very grateful for it. I mean, I feel like it's all a gift. You know, I mean, music. To me. I know this sounds sacrilegious. But instead of hearing a fire and brimstone sermon about the fourth chapter of John, sometimes I get closer to God by listening to Mahler's Ninth Symphony. That sounds very convenient. It's like, you know, you talk to the Christian community that like, Sunday morning should be in church. And I would agree with that. But sometimes for me, listening to Bach gets me closer to the throne room.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 6:31

So see more about how music touches your soul.

Rob Mathes: 6:35

I remember meeting a relative of mine, Tammy, my wife, her sister's husband, is his sister who married a really sweet guy. And I remember trying to talk to him about music at one point. And he's a numbers guy he's in, he's in. He's in business. He works at a bank, and he's very successful. And he's a lovely guy. But I had never spoken to anybody less musical in my life. And I think he would admit, it was like, I don't listen to a lot of music. What do you like? Well, I'm not a big music fan. I mean, I just couldn't understand it. It was like someone's saying they didn't like comedy. They didn't like the laugh or something. Because music for me, just seems to seems to be the elixir the fountain you know, it's always given me. My my best moments on planet Earth just being in the midst of, of good or great music, you know, and it's very difficult to do. You know, I've got a lot of names on my resume. You know, Natalie Cole, Aretha Franklin back Pavarotti, Lou Reed, yo, yo, Ma, Renee Fleming, Tony Bennett, whatever, you can go through them. In terms of great music. This way, even with those names, in terms of great music, I've made it I wouldn't have to say it's still rare to make really great music. You know, there are some people like Keith Jarrett, the piano players is a great example. Keith doesn't often make good music, he always makes great music. He's just one of the greatest geniuses to ever play the piano. Herbie Hancock, I would say is the same way. Um, you know, I would say that Springsteen has an ability with with words, that even on songs not a lot of people know, like, there was a song off his wrecking ball record called Jack of all trades. You know, we just these songs that Bruce may call his beat tracks that are just truer and more honest, and more direct and more moving than any, you know, half of what you'll hear anywhere else. So there are certain people that are in touch and making great music all the time. You know, when Stan was writing the Broadway show, The Last Ship every day, he was coming up with new songs where we go, I mean, just astonishing because he was in that zone. He was in that zone of writing about his childhood in the shipyards. And, you know, so but you know, but I've got gone on a lot of sessions and most of the sessions I've been a part of, over the last 20 years have been people making in tune music, in rhythm music, very accurately played music, well written music, but great music, you know, great music music that transcends the notes, the notes about

MICHAEL CUSICK: 9:30

that because that's the leading me to ask what exactly is great music. Truly

Rob Mathes: 9:34

great music would be like some of those Keith Jarrett trio records Bernstein conducting Mahler's ninth Abbey Road, you know, Radiohead In Rainbows is great, but you're

MICHAEL CUSICK: 9:45

you're referring to where it all comes together. And there's something transcending about it. What you mean by that? Well, there's

Rob Mathes: 9:52

a message. There's a collective purpose behind the music. The message isn't overly You know, hammered at or overwrought but it's, uh, you know you think of the Radiohead record in rainbows, for instance, it's a very creative band of art school students from Oxford that are smarter than there than they should be. But they're always searching, they're constantly searching, and there's a lot of despair in that band, you know, not, I wouldn't necessarily give the record to a lot of my Christian friends necessarily, but but as a musician, when I heard it, it was music about possibility and an openness and I didn't know what's going to happen next. It wasn't verse, chorus, verse chorus, bridge chorus out. And it was clearly a band of people wanting to be on the edge of what they could do, and continually search out the best and most moving music they could make in their practice genre. You know, it moved me when I'm in that zone, trying to seek that out. It's the richest and most and best place that can possibly be, you know, working besides staying throughout the last ship, was a privilege I was I was next to a great creative, who's blessed the world with big hit songs, but who also happens to be brilliant, and deep and lyrically astonishing. And we were on the path of seeking beauty, Transcendence meaning, and it's just, it's an extraordinary experience. And

MICHAEL CUSICK: 11:28

that sounds incredible. Yeah, who are some of the other folks you've worked with where you've had that kind of an experience? Well, I

Rob Mathes: 11:35

was living I come come in contact with people who, who love music with the with the passion that I do. And of course, I've been fortunate than most of the people I'm with now are that way, but I still remember Tony Bennett, when I came up. And my job with him was to basically map out vocal duets. Like if you've seen with Diana Krall, or Stevie Wonder, I would help map out the duets. Well, let's have let's have Diana come in here. We have to change the key for her because her voice is a little you know, but then you come in on the bridge, because the melodies lower on the bridge, we can say in her key that was kind of the map guy, the vocal duet map guy. And I remember, he was talking about Judy Garland. And he he found out somehow that I did not own Judy Garland at Carnegie Hall. Wow. And he

Unknown: 12:26

was so sweet about it. But he got a little ticked off. He's like, Are you kidding me? You know, she's the greatest entertainer that's ever lived, you know, you have to leave here right now.

Rob Mathes: 12:34

You've got to promise me you're gonna go buy that record. And I went out and I got that record. There was a time when there were record stores. This is about 10 years ago, and I bought it let's do it. It is transcendent. I mean, Judy Garland for all the travails she went through in her life. I mean, she was a transcendent performer. And Springsteen, I mean, when I went to do the string charts for the wrecking ball record, you know, I

MICHAEL CUSICK: 12:59

just read his mourn to run unbelievable. He's incredible. His vulnerability, his honesty.

Rob Mathes: 13:04

Well, we we did all this. He was working on a project that was almost Jimmy Webb Glen Campbell, like his almost an Americana project, or road project where he wanted to use some, some of the Jimmy Webb like orchestration, and they call me because I know Jimmy, well done String Quartet arrays, Mr. Jimmy Webb. I'm gonna musically directed Jimmy Webb concert at Carnegie Hall in a couple of months. And so I came in, and I did a bunch of arrangements. And then suddenly, Bruce started writing in another genre, because he was writing about the end of his giant stadium or the metalness or something, or whatever they tore down, which were like wrecking balls about and then he just, he started reading with the heartland and what what working people were going through, and how, you know, this whole Hillbilly Elegy thing, were working people want to want to think that either the Conservatives or the Liberals are going to answer their needs. And they're just, they're just struggling. They need somewhere to meet them where they live, you know, and he wanted to write to that. And so he just, he wrote this whole record in a matter of weeks. Wow. And he was on the road. He had about 40 songs written about something else. I said, Bruce, you're, you're incredible. How does that work? He's like, Well, sometimes I stick my, my shovel in the dirt right in front of me. And I'm just I'm just, and accidentally I trip and the shovel goes to the right. And I just start shoveling there. And you could tell the guy wakes up to write and writes all day and thinks all day and I'm sure it drives Patty and the kids a little batty because he is one of those great creatives and one of the gifts God's given us, you know, in the last 40 years of writing, but it's just interesting to be around that and of course, everybody I've worked with, I think all the great people I've worked with have have had that Kind of. I mean, yo, yo Ma, the first thing I ever wrote for him was an arrangement for the centennial, the Dallas symphony. And he was coming to play DeVore jocks Cello Concerto, which is the great Cello Concerto. And Vanessa Williams was on the program and she loves Harold Arlen. So it was, it was the idea of the Dallas Symphony board for me to write arrangements for yo yo to have like cello obbligato lines and these great aerelon songs. And so I was so daunted. I mean, this was 1999. So I'm a much better orchestrator. Now I've written you know, 500 arrangements since then. But I agonized over it. He came in, and he treated it as if it was divorce shock. Wow, he got brought me into the room. And he said, What about this? Can I What if I bought it this way? What I do that, and he had more energy and more respect and love. And this is a giant, this is a musical giant. And this was a good arrangement, Michael. But this was not divorce shock. And so that kind of love and grace, I find it. I've been very fortunate. I mean, you do hear about some musicians that can be very, very gifted, and very, very difficult. I've been pretty free of that. I mean, I've sure I've had some run ins, but we won't, we won't. Right, exactly. But most of it has been just a great blessing. You know,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 16:21

you mentioned Stevie Wonder a couple of minutes ago, and I was channel surfing. And it was during Obama's inauguration. Yeah. And I stopped on the concert, the outdoor concert at Lincoln Memorial lincoln memorial that you did, and I saw you sitting next to Stevie Wonder on a keyboard. And Stevie was rocking his head back and forth. And you were rocking back and forth. What was that like to direct the the inaugural live concert?

Rob Mathes: 16:48

My favorite record in pop history is Songs in the Key of Life. Oh, I love it. I mean, everyone says Abbey Road or stones record or maybe Dylan's bringing it all back home or highway 61/3? Duke? Isn't

MICHAEL CUSICK: 16:59

she lovely? Isn't

Rob Mathes: 17:00

she lovely? As pasttime paradise. have a talk with God? I wish I mean, it's just a masterpiece. And Stevie at his best basically transcends the genre, his genre completely. I mean, he's just one of the great musicians in the history of pop music without a shadow of a doubt. He's up there with James Brown and Prince and all these other people. And I've got gotten the chance to work with him on a number of occasions. In that same kind of music director mode, where I'm where I'm working on a project with a bunch of different artists and Stevie's come into play. And I've had to interact with act with Stevie let me be honest, I'm not like hey, Stevie, do this chord, do this. Get you know, I'm normally the air traffic controller in that situation. And I'll play guitar and, and I still remember, I will never forget, emptying the Pavarotti and friends benefits a number of years. Director. Yeah. Music. Yeah. Music, as opposed to the medical director. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And Steve and Steve, he came in and did higher ground and he had the end of higher ground. He had this liquid zoom.

Unknown: 18:07

But that bad, it's bad. That data pump that data pump

Rob Mathes: 18:10

that data dump title was so it was some phrase that the band could not get. And we had, perhaps at that time, the greatest drummer in the world playing Steve Gadd, who only drummer will know

Unknown: 18:21

Yeah, and who's your guy? Yeah. And

Rob Mathes: 18:23

Steve was convinced it was in for for like, it was

Unknown: 18:27

Beth Beth planned Bamp Bamp behind it. And I said,

Rob Mathes: 18:30

No, Steve, you you can't think of it and for for however syncopated, it isn't. You just got to hear the phrase. And I was right. And Stevie, you know, it's three head boy. That's it. He's just a giant. I mean, what do you say? I mean, when I'm in when I'm in the room with these kinds of people, he came saying fragile was staying at 1660s. He's just, he gets on stage and we all Marvel we just all my grateful were in the room with him. You know,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 19:00

when you were a teenager writing songs and performing Did you ever imagine that you'd be working with folks like this?

Rob Mathes: 19:08

Had no idea No, I really did think it was going to be just a singer songwriter work on my own music. That's all I ever wanted to do. Anytime I would hear new, a new genre or a new master, I would want to chase it. And so I would spend I would go off on tangents. I would study Mahler's ninth and transcribe the fourth first movement for my mom and I to play on double piano forehand, two pianos. And then I would, you know, literally imbibe songs for swinging lovers, the great Frank Sinatra record just to check out those Nelson Riddle records. We

MICHAEL CUSICK: 19:43

have. We have a mutual friend that calls that being promiscuous with the genre. You and it's

Rob Mathes: 19:51

tricky it there is. It can be said that maybe even most of the greatest artists in human history We do practice within a particular language, they expand that language, but they're not trying to be eclectic. I mean, obviously, you look at Peter Gabriel or Paul Simon or sting. Artists who, you know, we can all say have morphed in, they've had their different stages of their career. But still, there's that inimitable voice. And they did make it on one genre initially, right. You know, you don't get to Abbey Road and Sergeant Pepper's without she loves me. You know, she loves you. Yeah, yeah. And I want to hold your hand, you know. And that's been the one I think sometimes my weakness is that I'm jumping around too much. But the thing I will say for myself is when I am working within these genres, I It's like I know nothing else. I treat it like it is my language. I live there and, and I was on an iPad kid before an iPad was invented. I mean, in the front room, my dad would be listening to Peter, Paul, Mary and Dylan. You know, Peter, Paul, and Mary and Bob Dylan and my mom would be playing Chopin's Fantasie, impromptu and teaching the Beethoven Beth batik Sonata, to her kids. And my uncle, who was married to my mother's identical twin sister was a big band leader. And he was actually a big band writer, not a leader. He played trombone with a bunch of big bands, and he would he was the one that said, You gotta listen to these Sinatra records. And my aunt played for the New York City Opera. And then I met a bunch of people growing up my aunt my adopted on Jan, was a huge Motown fan, and I still will never forget the first time at seven years of age that I heard, never can say goodbye, sung by Michael Jackson. Wow. I mean, it was like a bolt from the blue. I mean, it was a transforming experience that little kids singing like no one has ever song sense except maybe Stevie. I was just a genre hopper. I just loved all this different music and followed it. And it led me to being a string arranger for people and a horn arranger for people in a choral arranger for people and an MD, my dad's a bandleader. That's what he does. He teaches the band in Greenwich, Connecticut, he teaches bandit for schools, He's now retired, but so I knew what it was like to have to corral cats. So that that became a lot of my life.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 22:17

So do you ever struggle being that musical aircraft controller or the guy behind the scenes with your arrangements? I know that you still perform with the ROB Mathis band, but it sounds like most of what you do is kind of in the shadows of production. Is it hard for you? You

Rob Mathes: 22:32

know, it hasn't been because I mean, as as you know, when you when you work on film or something, it's it's the director of photography and the director of the film that has a big influence on the outcome. I mean, the panic of the disco record pretty odd. Their second record, which I produced, I'm really proud of, it's a really energetic, deep record these these kids are discovering the Beach Boys and The Beatles, and they want to go there and we mixed it at Abbey Road, and I recorded the strings at Abbey Road, and I played harpsichord and piano and guitar on it, but I was a Smart enough guy to get out of the way and to let it sound like them, and not me. So no, it's all been a gift. You know, I just see it at all, as all and I'm grateful for it. Because, you know, we're nomads we're kind of we're troubadours, we musicians, we never know where the next gig is coming. You know, I remember going through writing and getting to write a song with Sting for gosh, for God's sakes, I mean, my goodness. And then you know, being having no work for about a month being able to spend time with my family and most of my wise friends and certainly my Christian friends say the right thing they say God will provide he loves you, he's giving you this break to be with your family, your husband, your You're a father, but I'm assuming they'll never work again. You know, so it's I'm grateful for all of it. And it's been a privilege to be able to do my own music as you know, Michael, I've released a record regularly for the past 20 years and they're really good records. Yeah, you know, I'm really proud of them especially evening train. And it's sequel wheelbarrow and of course William the angel which I have that song has gotten out into the ether that song I wrote for my cat

MICHAEL CUSICK: 24:26

in the Taya won a Grammy for it. Well, Kathy recorded

Rob Mathes: 24:29

the final song in that little song cycle, which is called when the angel she recorded good news and she won a Grammy for it. Yeah, the actual song well, yes, no, she recorded good news, right, which is the fourth song in the song cycle that's called William the angel, of which the first song is William the angel. And that's the song that I got to sing across the country 40 times with the Boston Pops. One year we toured that song and a number of people. You know, if you go online, you type in Willie means all churches sing that song and that song has gotten out there and there are still people that fly out to see my Christmas concert just to hear that song vector one year I didn't do William the angel I gotten a lot of trouble actually got letters and emails complaints so I've been able to do my own stuff while having the privilege of dealing with these greats you know

Unknown: 25:30

since Sony William stuck in staring out of his broken wing he said sheds a couple of tears says I haven't seen my friends St. Paul St. Peter and 15 William sits on he says God are you crazy these humans lifelong around the world so many victories and struggles and not telling them love your love you listen they no longer seem to care this is my before return me to heaven may mile wind be repaired send me to Beirut doesn't matter I was taught I still like to say stands on this now state trooper wondering what well I'm seeing both deaf district Sir the cruelty of nature but when God points left to right follow your wrong Williams walk walks the street William says the answers can be seen why consider the smile babies when it's wrapped in its mother's and consider the sound and the look of the sky after revile and store you been for returns me to heaven sir I'd like to turn Berlin even the back piece still like to say just YES? said the trooper says be careful Haven't you Gods William says no wait while pointing to the remains of his he is offered a ride no thank you I'm an angel to a king this is what I see returns me to help me Victor sent me to Mexico City and Cape Town doesn't matter always like to say just so is like to say.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 33:07

Tell me about the Christmas concert, you've collaborated with some big names on that. And that's an annual thing you do for a fundraiser.

Rob Mathes: 33:14

In 1993, I had the first record you ever heard me do. Michael was called heart of hearts. And it was these two songs because it's not available. Now. It's an early record, I don't disown. I mean, I'm very proud of it. It's a very contemporary Christian record. And since then I've I've worked in in a broader zone, I've tried to be more of a you know, just a singer songwriter writing about spiritual and sometimes Christian issues, but not with that moniker on it just so. So the the boards are cleared and so people can get can enter in to this dialogue without having a label on it. Whereas heart of hearts was a record I wrote for my church. And

MICHAEL CUSICK: 33:57

even though you're calling that a very contemporary Christian record, it is musically beyond anything I've ever heard in terms of its breadth and how eclectic it is. Well, it's

Rob Mathes: 34:06

rich in classical tradition. There's a brass quintet on there there's a song called trouble today, which has Latin influences. Yeah, so it was musically very, very rich and it didn't sound like you know, when Amy Grant record or Steven Curtis Chapman record, right, as great as great as those records. A lot of those records aren't Stevens amazing, but i i as his Amy what a great writer she is, but I never really listened to a lot of that music. I listened to Aretha and Radiohead, and so I heart of hearts was the first record where I ventured into writing music for the church. I was going to at the time, which is St. Paul's Episcopal Church of Darien and I just always loved Christmas music. I always loved it. All kinds of Christmas music from Carol's to Vaughn Williams. And so I wrote these Wow, look at that. Someone got into a car Carmichael and the car locked in with my phone. And that's why we heard that music. Anyway. So, yeah, so what was I saying? So I wrote heart of hearts for my church. And it was based around issues around Christmas, the birth of innocence coming into the world to transform it. And I always love Christmas music so much that we just started giving a concert in 1993 at a church on a hill in Greenwich, Connecticut. And because I've been with Chuck main Gionee, and Kathy Matteo had won the Grammy for good news, a bunch of people came to it, and they loved it. And we did the whole heart of hearts song cycle. And then next year, I'd released William the angel. And so we did all of William Angel and some heart of hearts and it became a thing people loved. You're gonna do the Christmas concert this year, who is now 9394. And then finally, we went to purchase College, which is a State University in New York, on the Connecticut New York border, and they have an amazing performing arts center that, that everyone goes to Yo Yo Ma, the New York Philharmonic. It's an amazing place. And I started, my career really started taking off I started working with Phil Ramone and Vanessa Williams and Pavarotti and George Michael and Natalie Cole. And I was working as an assistant and associate producer of sorts with the great Phil Ramone, who basically if it weren't fulfill, I don't know where I'd be now. I mean, what a gift he gave me of bringing me to all these situations. And so the Christmas concert I started doing arrangements of things in the mode of Ellington and Bob Marley and I started writing more music and I put out evening train in the Christmas concert expanded musically, I got a six piece horn section. And I brought these great gospel singers James D train Williams and Van nice Thomas and, and then when I wrote these Christmas songs for Vanessa Williams, she did the concert we invited Michael McDonald from the Doobie Brothers, David Sanborn, the Great's alto saxophone player, Ossie Davis, who wrote who read Langston Hughes Christmas poems, and we filmed that. A great guy in Stanford named Mike mCherry, who ran a company called Eagle Vision. He loved the concert and he filmed it. And it went out on PBS. And then the concert really took off and became a three night thing, a three concert thing. And now we're 24 years later, you know, and it's every year the concert gets deeper and richer. We've got Willie from the Letterman Show on bass Sean Pelton from Saturday Night Live on drums job on a deal my longtime collaborator Hill,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 37:35

do percussion with Mark car cone. Yeah,

Rob Mathes: 37:37

yeah, with Joe place with Mark, and please. It's played with staying did the last ship with Sting. And all these great people come as the horn players I talked to you earlier in this interview about Andy Snitzer for Paul Simon and Mike Davidson stones. Don Harris from Nile Rodgers band placed lead trumpet. And so it's just become this thing where if you're in the New York area around Christmas time, and you come to that concert, you're going to hear music making at the very highest level, I think, and I'm not, I'm not taking I'm not giving myself credit for that. I mean, I do think my arrangement work and my songwriting is is strong, but the guys I have up on that stage are just extraordinary, the guys and gals. So yeah, so that's, that's a focal point of my year,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 38:21

you talked about faith and spirituality. And though you're no longer associated with contemporary Christian music, and you're deeply immersed into all kinds of music around the world, a lot of your songs have deeply spiritual and sometimes explicitly Christian themes. And I want to talk about the song though it is the night that you wrote, which is just one of the most moving songs production wise I've ever heard. And then the lyrics of course, are based on genre the crosses poem, yeah. Is it dark night of the soul? Yes,

Rob Mathes: 38:52

although it is the night. Talk to me about that song

MICHAEL CUSICK: 38:56

and how you came to write that.

Rob Mathes: 38:59

That song, it's amazing about that song. That is the last song on evening train, which is the one record I give to people, if they if they asked for one, because that record is the best combination of the arranger the writer, the man of faith, but the man who who mixes the sacred and the profane and I think that's such an important part of of great music is the mixing of the gears grinding, and the heavens singing you know the mix of that. And although it is the night I wish I could remember Michael where, when exactly when I wrote that and what was going on at the time, but it was clear to me when I was making evening train that record that although just tonight was going to be the kind of moment we arrive at at the at the end of that journey, the focal point of that record and If I remember I wrote the song as a sweet, in a way, it's two songs that are joined together at the end of evening train. One is called when I was a child. And one is called, although it is the night. And what happens in when I was a child, I still remember when I was coming back from Berklee College of Music. And I'll try to make this quick because I think I'm going to put you asleep in a second. But when I was coming back at Berklee College of Music, and my mom wanted me to take the train back with my grandfather once and my grandfather was a man of deep faith, but he was one of the guys, one of these guys who if you if you walked by him in a certain mood, he will sit you down on the couch and preach to you from an hour. Oh, Grandpa, I really want to go out and play well, no, let me let me read you from this passage in the Bible. And he was an important part of my life. And I loved him. He was just trained engineer was poor, grew up fairly poor, a train engineer. And I didn't want to go back from Berkeley with them on the train. I really didn't. I said to my mom, please. You know, Grant was just gonna talk about God for three hours. And you know, I love God, but I don't know you and I don't want to be preached to for three hours, I just want to read a book.

Unknown: 41:08

She said, Robbie, you're gonna get on that train and ride with your grandfather, you don't know how long you're going to have your grandfather. So,

Rob Mathes: 41:16

boy, my mom was wise, because I got on that train with him. And he basically told me about his life. And he didn't preach to me in the way he normally did. He just basically and then I asked him questions. And there's one moment and when I was a child that still in the sound so sappy, Michel, forgive me for this. I mean, this sounds not only sappy, but it sounds self serving. But there's still one moment I tear up every single time I hear it. And it's in the end verse of when I was a child. And when his story was told, and he told me a story about a train wreck, I asked him, if he ever thought the heavens were cold. He said, Son, to tell you the truth. I've loved my Creator, since the days of my youth, you know, which is directly out of the Bible. And that moment, in that song, crystallized for me the dialogue like in that in the song when I was a child, I'm bemoaning the fact that as a as an angry young college kid, I see a very suffering world, I see a suffering world where it would be very easy to see that this is either a watchmaker, God who created us gave us the garden. And then when we messed with it, he said, I'm out. I'm out of here. Now, that's not the experience of people of faith all around the world. You're talking to people being I've talked to a woman in Rwanda, who is sure that God saved her life for a purpose. And she eventually went off survived the genocide in Rwanda, and literally changed the world. So as you know, as a person of faith, I've seen I've seen miracles in my life. But I've also I have dear friends and people I love more than life itself, who are who are dyed in the wool agnostics. And I get it. Yeah. So when I'm writing when I was a child, I'm saying I'm writing with a man who didn't have an easy life, and tells me he loves his creator. And he's a man of faith, you know. And then we get to although it is the night, and I wrote all though, it's the night right after it, and both sides were written about a year before it started recording evening train. evening train was written right before we started recording the record. And it's also that's a companion song to when I was a child. It's dedicated to my grandfather and all about him. But although is tonight, I remember reading a Seamus Heaney poem called station Island, and in the poem, and I may get this slightly wrong, Michael, but what happens in the poem because I haven't read the poem in literally 15 years. But his, his teacher, towards the end of the poem says, tells him within the narrative structure the poem to translate a St. John of the Cross poem as an exercise as a kind of spiritual exercise. And he translated this poem, you know, oh, how will I know that mountains rushing flow although it is the night you know, the whole lyric keeps coming back to although it is the night although it is the night and to me what a great idea that is that no matter what you're going through, you know, full well I know, that fountains rushing flow, although it is the night and I didn't want to use Heaney's translation because you know, I'm sure it was under copyright and stuff, but I knew this was an ancient poem. Not ancient, but I knew it was from a while ago so I looked up a bunch of different translations and kind of match them and then put my own lyrics in between and that's all though it is the night and we You were scheduled to mix that song on nine 1201.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 45:08

Wow. I get chills because I have chills every time I listen to that song. I

Rob Mathes: 45:13

think it's as good as I've got in me. I really do. I think that's, you know, there are a couple of songs. Williams one I really love playing evening train even though it's more of a blues, it's you know, but although it is the night I you know, I heard

MICHAEL CUSICK: 45:27

a story, Rob, where you perform that song? Perhaps it was at the Christmas concert in December after 911, three months after what was that like?

Rob Mathes: 45:37

Well, it's interesting. I had taken the year before off because I toured with the Boston Pops, sang William the angel all over the country, and people were so moved by it was such a great experience. And it was the only year I took off in the last 24 years of a Christmas concert. We took a newspaper ads out and said, We thank the audience for being there. But Rob has been asked to go on tour with the Boston pots, you know, and sing his own songs, you know, oh, one we were back. So it had been two years since Rob Mathis Christmas concert. And now you know, the Christmas concert has expanded. There's a rabbi that comes to the Christmas concert every year that is just, you know, and I'll circle back to that, oh, one experience. But I bring this up. The rabbi Mark Gollum has come now every year because he just loves the music. And I started. I said, Robert, you've got to teach me about the Maccabees because you're now coming. You're the biggest fan of my concert out there. I want to write a song for you. And he sat me down for five hours and taught me everything about the Maccabees. And I was determined not to write a cute Hanukkah song. So I've now wrote and written a series of deep you know, really rich and moving Hanukkah songs for the rabbi. But back in oh one the concert was still almost like a midnight mass for some people. You know? And I mean, Midnight Mass in a universal sense. Protestant and Catholic. You know, there were we always had it right before Christmas, like this year it will be on the 22nd and 23rd. And I've got my wife saying to me, Rob, that's too close. Christmas. He was 24 I said Tammy, you don't remember the beginnings of this concert? It was like we almost wanted to do the concert on Christmas Eve because the feeling was like that you know the crash is about to be filled with the baby and that oh one year? I did because we were releasing evening training I did when I was a child into although it is the night and you could just feel it because you see these planes go into these buildings and a war starts in our world our world has not been the same sense. And it was a tough time to say full well I know that fountains rushing flow although it is the night the agnostics felt very justified around that time where is God and all this and of course a lot of us who've grown up in faith were despairing you know and we understood it was a it's a world history of darkness incredible darkness. But it was very moving it was a you could tell people in tears and it was just it was the perfect song for that time in a way

Unknown: 48:35

how is it spring is hidden even so hi Angus from one's sauces flow it's origin no no. That all origin from the way it is not can make anything. Confusing No there is no other thing so fair heaven drink group freshman step no man comes down no crosses can live with although it is waiting never lose faith found Russian flu clarity clouded still Shelby can see here Colin now drink these waters relinquish control is me hang me floor

MICHAEL CUSICK: 53:52

so Rob I want to talk about another song and these are the only songs I'll ask you to comment or exegesis on but it's a song kind of in the opposite direction from although it is tonight and it's the song Christ came back and trash the cathedral and that's kind of a song that's like a punch in the face. And yet there's this almost beatlesque sweet melody and so to me it's a song of contradictions. Tell me about that what was going on that you wrote that song? Well, Christ

Rob Mathes: 54:18

came back and trust the cathedral is off a record which was kind of my rebellion record in a way. It's just called flesh and spirit and I really wanted to poke at some elements of my history as a as a person of faith and a person who spent most Sundays in church. I wanted to just poke a few holes and things that had bothered me for a long time. And I'm sure we all feel this. Most Christians would agree with me on the fact that people that say they're Christian sometimes say the most heinous things, you know, things that couldn't possibly relate to any Gospel anywhere that would help anybody. You know, if we don't watch ourselves it becomes kind of a club for those, you know, check these things off. Do you believe a Do you believe B? Do you believe C? Do you believe D? Do you believe a? Do you live your life in this way? Do you behave in this way? Okay, you get in, you're in the club. And, you know, we've heard we heard about all these abuses within the Catholic Church, and these crazy things in the Christian church like the Westboro Baptist, and all this mad stuff. And you know, I just thought to myself years ago, this was a title I had in my head for about 10 years. Man, if Christ came back and walked among us, he would probably be pretty ticked off. And I had the phrase, Christ came back and trashed the cathedral. And I never did anything about the phrase because I thought, ah, you know, anytime you try to write a political song or try to make a big statement, and you're not Lou Reed or David Byrne are dealing with that kind of a gift, you're really treading on difficult water, people don't want to be preached to people want to hear your story. If you've got a story, you can tell musically in a compelling manner, people want to hear that, but they don't want to hear you preaching to them, they really don't. And so I sat on the title for a long long time. And then when I started writing most of the songs that are on wheelbarrow which has a couple of my you know, songs almost as strong as all those the night one of which is called considerate joy, which was written in the wake of coming back from Rwanda with Ian cron, our mutual friend. When I started writing songs for a wheelbarrow, I finally set I finally came up with a lyric that made Christ came back trust cathedral work. But here's the interesting thing. Wheelbarrow was a sequel to evening train, I was playing piano a lot of the time there were horn arrangements. And I wrote a funky version of Christ came back to drastic cathedral. And then when I was starting to prep wheelbarrow, I left it off something was wrong. It had some really cool chords in it at times, it almost reminded you of Steely Dan or something. And I rekindled my relationship with Giovanna do this great drummer, this scruffy drummer almost like animal from the Muppets, who will, you know, bring a frying pan and play the whole track on frying pan if he can, you know, he collects, you know, junk yard stuff and plays on it. He's one of those guys. he's just amazing. And I call him Joe up one night, and I said, Listen, I've got a lot of these songs I'm working on there's this, this great Nobel laureate named Leo Zabo, who who read St. Paul's writing in prison in China. He was a dissident. And he, he declared after reading, I don't think he converted to Christianity. But after reading St. Paul's writings, he declared I have no enemies and no hatred, all so this is where shoes, this is where shoes came from. And I wrote shoes based on reading examples, writings, and I think that's how to pronounce his name Lita Zobo, I think. And so I started writing these series of songs. And I knew I was going to do with Joe is Joe Lynch is going to do a record where it's mostly written on the guitar. It's mostly the guitar centered project. Yeah, I'm just going to bring a bunch of open tune guitars and let's do it live. No overdubs all live. I said, Joe, I wrote this song. And it was really cool. The track is really cool. It had all this interesting chords on it called Christ came back and trashed the cathedral. But to me, the music sounds to urbane, it sounds to Manhattan, downtown Manhattan, it's like here's a rich C minor 11 chord and B triad over an A seven go into an A flat major seven with a sharp 11. It was like the sound that was written by a Berklee College of Music in I said it's this ferocious

Unknown: 59:01

Cronus game back trance the cathedral you know, it's this ferocious thing.

Rob Mathes: 59:06

You still want to rewrite it. So I rewrote it on an opened dad gad tuning, which is what most guitarists out there would know it's from the bottom string Options D A, D, G, A D, dad, Gad, and I wrote this ferocious version of it and it worked and it got the tenor of the music and then bond a deal came and played, you know, Muppet drums on top of it. And I had the great bass players of cats who, who had played for me at the Kennedy Center Honors IMD, the Kennedy Center Honors for 12 years and he was my bass player.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 59:39

And you wanted me for that?

Rob Mathes: 59:40

I did. I did. Thank you. The one thing I tell religious, very religious people about Christ came back and trusts Cathedral is it's not a song that just tears down. I mean, it's the song at the end and says, you know, maybe one day we'll have a clean altar, a humble altar, and Christ will come back and someone will be blessed and had an altar that's been created out of the out of the ruins so to speak.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:00:03

Yeah. As you're seeing that. It's easy to hear, though that that there's some anger, you're seeing a real intensity. Yeah,

Unknown: 1:00:11

I just,

Rob Mathes: 1:00:13

you know, I do think, and I don't know, I don't again, I don't want to preach to your audience aren't either. But I do think there are dangerous things that happens sometimes in the Christian world. And I have a lot of dear friends, people that would have treated me with such great respect and love, that are very conservative politically and very faithful go to church every Sunday. But sometimes the marriage of a certain kind of ferocious capitalism with the gospel of Christ just seems to me to be an A non sequitur at times. So I don't want to overstate that. But there have been times when the behavior of some within the spiritual community has confused me. And then obviously, there's the pedophilia in the Catholic Church, which is horrific, which is one of the lyrics in the song, which is one of the lyrics in the song. So it's all that kind of behavior that just doesn't relate to Christ at all. I mean, sometimes I say to my conservative friends, so you got to understand why I become a card carrying liberal. And, you know, it's because I've read Dickens, and I've read the New Testament, and I do believe, you know, I was raised by trickle down economics people, I was raised as a capitalist. But I do believe what Dickens says, We should be known for how we take care of the poor, and as you know, very well, Michael, there are some, a lot of the heroes of the conservative community are within the Christian community. I mean, I know Christians that are ferociously conservative, and tithe 90% of their income, put their money where their mouth is, and vote conservative, because they want to have control over their income. They don't want to, you know, and then they then take that income, and they're the true trickle down, they do heal the world. We know, I know, you know, many of them, Michael, and I know many of them. So I really don't want to harp on this. But Christ came back and Trask cathedral, really, just in a somewhat angry way talks about Christ coming back and calling the play and just saying throwing the flag down and go, No, do not show up and pick it a funeral in my name, or, you know, no, you cannot do these things in my name. I'm done. And I'm trashing the cathedral, we got to start all over again. So that's where that song come from. As

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:02:36

we wrap up, I want to ask you, can you come back to this idea of the sacred and the profane, needing to be together? That sounds like a rich idea. Oh,

Rob Mathes: 1:02:44

man, it of course, is interesting. People like Prince, their whole career is based on that in a way and I know there are many Christians that would think Prince, Prince was Jehovah's Witness. And Prince is one of the greatest musicians to ever pick up a guitar or play a piano and he's a hero of mine. But I think that the sacred and the profane. I was down in Nashville. Steve rice, is a really a great Christian man and national Sunday loved William the angel loved a lot of my music, and he said, I want to sign you a deal to you to deal as a writer for EMI Christian music. I said, Steve, are you sure I'm a scrappy, kind of liberal New York kid? And, you know, I get in trouble more often than not, and I don't, yes, I've written praise and worship songs for my church, but they were written for my my friend and hero and the amazing man in crime, you know, in Crohn's started to church. And, you know, the idea of the church was this is a church for the rest of us. This is your church where the doubters can come in not only like the early Willow Creek, you know, we're bring your questions come on in, let's just, let's try to meet God and for the disenfranchised Catholics and the people that kind of got exhausted by the evangelical tradition. You know, come on, in, let's have a dialogue. Let's not just sleep late on Sunday morning, you know, and so I did write praise and worship songs for and normally based on old texts, and old, you know, the old hymn tradition, but I was a scrappy guy. I didn't think Steve was making a good decision at all, but no, he did. He signed me up and I wrote in at an incredible time in Nashville for eight years. And one of the reasons I stopped writing a lot of you know, just specifically, you know, spiritual music is because I think the intensity of the consonants of always having to end in consonance can weaken a music. And sometimes the questions have to live there's a dangerous song on flesh and spirit called paint the windows black. And it was actually written more from response to Scientology than anything else, but it goes for any faith tradition, which says come on in, close the door, paint the windows black, we got the truth. We own the truth. Right? So, the sacred mixing with the profane dissonance and consonance you know, I wrote a really sexy song for my wife on flesh and spirit. You know, I mean, I almost baby still does. He still does. And, you know, I just think, you know that spend some time with a fat man is one of the songs on evening train, that that song

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:05:25

has been unbelievable for me personally. But that whole like that whole idea of I'll do it tomorrow. Yeah, the sword from the stone. Tell me about that song.

Rob Mathes: 1:05:34

Welcome to you know, what is it?

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:05:37

I got a lot of plans.

Unknown: 1:05:44

Going come tomorrow, I got a lot of plans come tomorrow. I'll change my world.

Rob Mathes: 1:05:53

And it's basically the whole song is coming tomorrow I

Unknown: 1:05:57

will, I'll fix myself. I'll lose all that weight and become, you know, worthy of you. But then finally, in the chorus, they

Rob Mathes: 1:06:04

say no, you know, but tonight, this eternal night, which seems to last forever, if you would, if you please, if you can spend some time with a fat man, you know? And my wife said, Yes, she's been she's now spent 26 years 28 dating with a fat man. Now I'm actually Michael you're we're kinda have you look right, I have lost 20 pounds. But But yeah, and

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:06:29

here in your office, there's a treadmill with weights. And so you know, you wouldn't think

Rob Mathes: 1:06:33

that fat man would be written by a Christian because it's kind of a sexy song. You know? Some very you know, so we get are you asking someone to have premarital sex with you with that song? You know, it's like, you know, relax, you know it. We're mixing the sacred the profane the 60s, the history of music, and listen to Hendrix and Dylan and the Beatles. I mean, rock and roll was, you know, they're burning records, Christian churches, were burning some of the best records ever made in the 50s. You know,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:06:59

why do you think that Christians in particular, just look at the profane and not the sacred? Because what you're saying, and I've seen this for years, I used to write for the martial review, where we looked at how the secret is revealed in secular art and literature and music. Why don't we miss that? I

Rob Mathes: 1:07:14

don't know. And I think we're probably for people like you, Michael, wiser than me to figure it out. I do think when I've gone down occasionally, I still get invited to Capitol Beach, Calvary Church, in Orange County, California. They still invite me every four or five years, they still invite scrappy, radical liberal, sitting on the fence at times Rob Mathis to lead Easter worship once every three or four years. And I go, there are some of the sweetest and greatest people I know in my life, Craig Whitaker runs that church and I you know, Craig is just the salt of the earth. And why am I bringing this up? Because I know people that in the straight evangelical tradition became what, what would be scoffed at in the New York art circles, a born again, Christian, and I'm making the, quote, science with my fingers. And I've seen the reaction of a lot of those people who have come out of a real drug addiction, or real struggles in their life. And having a ferocious response to a faith tradition literally saves their life. And they come into it and they want to shut out the profane completely, because they were burned by it in their own life. And I get that. So to let off the hook, this idea of the Christian prude and, and the Christian who has no soul and he's just, he's just saying you shouldn't do that, you know, listen, there are Christians down through history that had a good heart and still, you know, cause Somerset mom to respond with some pretty, you know, damning fiction about, you know, Christians and curates and who, who beat you know, the club over people to, you know, never have sex, never do anything, you know, never drink a drop of wine, that whole thing. I get it. Sometimes your response, you come into the throne room, your life is saved, and you just want to hang out there. You know, so the profane is scary. I come back to the music. I come back to the art. All I know, is that the work of Thom Yorke and Jimi Hendrix and Lou Reed who was a heroin addict, and David Bowie, and Johann Sebastian Bach, Gustav Mahler, Matisse, Gerhard Richter, the great modern painter. You know, Lenny Bruce, these people have made my life in exile terribly richer and many of them are not only not Christian. They are, you know, sometimes fierce agnostics but they're one work speaks of the heavens. And if something we still don't understand, you know, we Christians assume we understand it. But this miracle of consciousness, you know what scientists and, and philosophers would say the hard problem, that somehow, however the miracle we got here, someone wrote those late Beethoven string quartets. I mean, my goodness, you know, and I just think, letting the art be completely open, and nothing be kept out because it's not consonant enough or not worthy of the church kept out of the music, hampers the music, hampers the art,

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:10:45

who is on your bucket list to work with? And what would you like to do musically as you look into the future? Wow.

Rob Mathes: 1:10:53

I have been really moved by some of the work within the hip hop community. I really have. And I'm a you know, I mean, I grew up on on black music. I grew up on African American music, gospel music. And so I feel like, you know, I did, I worked with this great producer Just Blaze and did some stuff for the American Gangster JC thing. I worked with a couple of I actually did a string chart for Biggie Smalls and Tupac collaboration. And every single time I did a string chart for hip hop project, they turned it up really loud. Because the attitude of that of that music is not too many parts, a drum groove ton of great vocals, the story on top, the wrapping, and the tail telling on top. And if we're going to do a string chart or horn chart, turn that stuff up. And some incredible music is being made in that community. Now, I know that there are Christian rappers and religious rappers and I know that a lot, a lot of religious people, Christian people would think that some hip hop is like dangerous and odd. But there's some great art being made there. And I would like to work with some some members of that community. I would love to write. You know, I wrote this cantata about four years ago that Ian commissioned me to write with this poet named me holo Schiele. And it draws the Psalms together with responses from the poet in between songs. And it's one of the best things I've ever done in my life. And I really want to revise it and have it released in choral music, and have more more church people hear it because it's actually something you could, you could have in a Sunday service, but it's really, it's written for orchestra and choir and boys choir, and, and it's real. So I want that to see the light of day. You know, I've been pretty fortunate in terms of the stars I've been able to work with. I mean, I really have I never worked with Paul McCartney closely. I did. I met him and I ran the tribute to him at the Kennedy Center Honors. So I guess I would be honored to read a string chart for Paul McCartney or play keyboards on his band for a second, but he's got a pretty great band, he doesn't need me. I would love to do more for Bruce, my stuff for Bruce Springsteen has mostly been taking string ideas that he's done and completely fleshing them out where they become my charts, but they're basically based on Bruce's ideas because Bruce kind of drives everything in his music, but I think his music has a ferocity where we could do not as synchronicities you know, I did that symphonic record with staying, not necessarily something like that, because it's not Bruce's thing. Bruce is really kind of our folk troubadour poet, but something with like a big brass section and strings and he brought some of my charts out and another string arranger has worked with him on some stuff where he's brought he I think he had strings at the Meadowlands last year, but I think it could be done in a much deeper way. And he's such a giant man, he's such a giant I think it would be great to do more with him. I just want to keep making music and I pray that I'll be able to continue to write my own music and to see people like you respond to although it is the night and William the angel, and wheelbarrow and then this stuff is means a lot to me. Because that's really the work that matters more than anything and I pay for it. With the with the music that makes me my mortgage, which is watering other people's gardens, which is a gift.

MICHAEL CUSICK: 1:14:26

Maestro, Rob Mathis means a lot to me. You've taken time. So thank you.

Rob Mathes: 1:14:30

Thank you. It's great.

Brian Beatty: 1:14:34

So thank you for listening to another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. What we're all about is helping couples and individuals get unstuck. You know how some people go to counseling or marriage therapy for months or even years and never really get anywhere. Our intensive programs help clients get on Stuck in as little as two weeks to learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com